22 ms·

FBI arrests author of NanoCore after it was pirated and abused by hackers

• ge96 10y ago
  Just a guy wearing a hoodie on a computer in a Starbucks. ha joking
• a_c 10y ago
  Reminds me sometime ago there was a post on HN from the author of shadowsock[1] about being prosecuted/arrested by chinese authority. Maybe one day one could be arrested by making keyboards or phone screen. Who knows [1] shadowsocks.org
  • madez 10y ago
    > Maybe one day one could be arrested by making keyboards or phone screen. Who knows Only if the keyboards and screens don't send their data to the authorities.
• Jazgot 10y ago
  Just wondering when they will start arresting knife manufacturers?
  • jmcdiesel 10y ago
    If knife manufacturers are promoting and supporting their product on a forum devoted to the illegal use of knives... they probably could (and should)
• jakobegger 10y ago
  “It’s like saying that if someone buys a handgun and uses it to rob a liquor store, that the handgun manufacturer is complicit.” I think that's a good analogy.
  • wimagguc 10y ago
    Handgun manufacturers are strictly controlled by the state: you'll need a licence at the very least. If you produced handguns in the garage and one accidentally got out, you probably wouldn't be so surprised to see the FBI at your doorstep.
    • caf 10y ago
      Right, so it's more like if someone buys an axe and uses it to rob a liquor store.
      • probably_wrong 10y ago
        I have to disagree. An axe is a multipurpose tool, and I think we agree that its main purpose is chopping wood (and/or wild wood, also known as trees), not robbing liquor stores. The question here would be: what was the tools' main purpose? Is it closer to a gun, which are mainly designed to make living things less alive[1], or closer to an axe, which people use all the time in law-abiding ways? Because the first one has tons of restrictions (and penalties) that the second one doesn't. Of course he'll say "I manufactured and sold tools", the prosecution will say "he manufactured and sold guns", and the courts will decide. While I'm not saying he's definitely guilty, I think the case is nuanced enough to warrant a trial. [1] Yes, I know most gun owners go to shooting ranges instead of robbing liquor stores. That doesn't change what guns were designed for.
        • willvarfar 10y ago
          RATs are also commonly used for IT support and law enforcement.
          • mindcrime 10y ago
            RATs are also commonly used for IT support and law enforcement. That's a damn good point. I bet if his defense team looked hard enough, they could find an RFP/RFQ out there somewhere, where the FBI themselves were seeking to purchase something like NanoCore. Hell, I'd go one further and suggest that in discovery they ask the FBI for a list of any RAT tools they use, including NanoCore! Proving that the FBI themselves are a customer for tools like (and possibly including) NanoCore should be enough for any half-intelligent judge to throw the case out without further discussion.
• efdee 10y ago
  He's using vertical-align and flex-direction. Arrest him!
  • constantlm 10y ago
    Yay one other person saw that. :D
• Sujan 10y ago
  If that's all that is to the story: Poor guy. Could have been me, wouldn't I have gotten a slap on the wrist when I was 16. That made me leave the "hacker forums" and go into another direction.
  • pgrote 10y ago
    What happened to you?
    • Sujan 10y ago
      Ahem... Spent too much time in these circles, doing what people do there. Some of it not really legal. Authorities noticed, took my hardware and told me hat I maybe should think hard about going back there. Got new hardware and changed course.
      • smrtinsert 10y ago
        Mr. Anderson...
      • deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
  • FilterSweep 10y ago
    Not sure how long its been, but I think they punish hacking far heavier now. This change reminds me of the harsh punishment Samy Kamkar received for the Myspace worm[0] which, while it did deserve a punishment, far exceeded what I would expect for the "damage" done. Samy was hit under an extension of the Patriot Act. For sending friend requests to strangers via XSS vuln. Its the War on Drugs Effect, hysteria and concerns over the implications of a hacking push lobbiers and citizens into demanding heavier punishments (which, similarly with the WOD, probably leaves the convicted even worse off). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samy_Kamkar#Samy_worm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samy_Kamkar#Samy_worm
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• beaconstudios 10y ago
  trying to sell dual-use RAT software on hack forums and calling it legitimate business seems like riding the line. As the article says, you're not going to find corporate IT managers on that site. Seems like the guy was knowingly selling to hackers and then crying foul when he "discovered" they were using it for hacking and disabling the license.
  • zer0tonin 10y ago
    This article is seriously clickbait. The authors of legitimate IT security tools aren't advertising on skid websites, just the fact that you advertise on these websites shows that you have the intent of letting people misuse it.
    • jontas 10y ago
      I don't know anything about the particular website he was advertising on, but I could easily see someone in the HN community developing some security software, advertising it via a "Show HN" post, and then being judged for posting it on "Hacker News".
      • beaconstudios 10y ago
        the site described is very much a blackhat hacker forum.
        • jontas 10y ago
          I read the article but it isn't so clear about that. It says the forum contains many non-hacking related subjects. To a total outsider with little understanding of the world of computer security, Hacker News might look and sound like a blackhat site too. There are frequent posts about vulnerabilities, hacking news, and security tools.
          • zer0tonin 10y ago
            Yeah but anyone who actually opens a discussion on hackforums will realize it's a forum made for skids.
• mekazu 10y ago
  Would it be illegal to write say an excellent grepping or sorting tool that I really want someone to use as part of a criminal activity, even if it had heaps of other uses?
  • Tepix 10y ago
    FBI is claiming if you sell your grep tool via a site called HackForums, it is.
    • AndrewOMartin 10y ago
      Would HackerNews be an acceptably named place to drum up some publicity? Politicians know that difference between Hacker and Cracker, right? ;)
      • uxp 10y ago
        Hacker News is operated by a VC firm, and most articles talk about new technology and how to monetize it. HackForums is a place to talk about cracking software, distributing unwanted malware, and other generic "skiddie" stuff. Like the article says, it's shades lighter than the "dark web", and there are probably dozens of legitimate reasons to visit that place, but the vast majority of people there are looking for means to circumvent permissions/licensing/trust on other computers or someone else's software. Hell, Ansible is a great RAT. It logs onto my servers, installs software, reconfigures settings, restarts crashed services. It can handle a network of thousands of boxes at a time. It's just not marketed as something that can turn on the webcam of a user, hide from antivirus software, and silently let a disgruntled creep keep tabs on their ex's bedroom.
  • tyingq 10y ago
    Apparently, it's all in the Marketing. You can make a keylogger and get the cops to sell it for you, so long as it's "for the children". https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/09/computercop-dangerous-internet-safety-software-hundreds-police-agencies https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/09/computercop-dangerous-...
• miduil 10y ago
  The tool he developed is called NanoCore. Licences were sold for $25. Below [0] is the latest wayback mirror. Sadly the "Terms of Services" didn't got archived. Quote from the website, section "Remote Surveillance": [...] remote surveillance via Remote Desktop, Remote Webcam, and Audio feeds. [...] file and process surveillance. I wonder how many legit use-cases for such a tool are out there. Not everyone wants to use Teamviewer, and for example lthe feature with remote task manager seem to be useful for debugging/support. Though, a google search for "https://nanocore.io/Download.rar" https://nanocore.io/Download.rar" reveals another picture [1]. Also why is the rar-archive "protected" with a passphrase (hovering "Download" reveals "Password: NanoCore")? [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20170315201655/https://nanocore.io/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170315201655/https://nanocore.... [1] https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=https%3A%2F%2Fnanocore.io%2FDownload.rar https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=https%3A%2F%2Fna... *Edit: Formatting
  • NoGravitas 10y ago
    Speaking neutrally, the legit use-case for that kind of tool is stated in the article -- for local network monitoring by budget-conscious network admins. Now, I personally think that the use of such tools is unethical, but the general opinion on HN seems to be that on a corporate network, anything the management wants to do on your machine is okay.
    • munin 10y ago
      why does a budget conscious network admin need audio and video surveillance through people's computers? wouldn't the business just install some cameras? this tool was made for sextortion, marketed to predators, and the author is shocked when the feds show up...
      • forgottenpass 10y ago
        why does a budget conscious network admin need audio and video surveillance through people's computers? I don't know why organizations make decisions I would find unconscionable, but that doesn't mean they don't do it. IT departments often become the enablers of surveillance. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School...
• nichj 10y ago
  If this goes though, can we sure car, knife, and anything else manufacturers? They sometimes use shady lots to sell cars, don't tell me everything about the car, and I can run someone over. Many people die each year from cars! This case might be precident...
  • coldtea 10y ago
    >If this goes though, can we sure car, knife, and anything else manufacturers? If they make purpose specific tools, then yes. Someone selling "Rape-o-matic sleeping pills" for example, will go to jail, even if they raped no one.
  • dragonwriter 10y ago
    > If this goes though, can we sure car, knife, and anything else manufacturers? Suing (and sometimes winning, more to the point) manufacturers and retailers who profit from unlawful acts of their customers knowingly, and often with reason that they should have known, is already possible under the law. More than 20 years ago when I worked at Radio Shack the employee orientation included a piece on this.
• kriro 10y ago
  I generally think it's crazy to hold someone responsible for the software they wrote, even if it has no theoretical "good use". The person using the software should be responsible. That being said it's even crazier if there is a legitimate use (network monitor etc.) which seems to be the case here. Where exactly do you draw the line? If an attacker uses Windows or Linux...is that evil software. If they phish with some mail-tool is that evil software etc. etc.
  • BanzaiTokyo 10y ago
    borderline industries such as drug and gun production are heavily licensed and controlled by the state. I believe this case should fall into a similar category. >Where exactly do you draw the line? You can kill with a hammer too, but noone will hold hammer maker complicit.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    • E6300 10y ago
      How could that possibly work? Gun manufacture requires machinery and resources, and drug production requires specific knowledge that's not widely disseminated. Anyone can learn how to write software.
      • chillingeffect 10y ago
        Sales would be the point of control. Gun manufacturing equipment is not prohibitive. Zip guns and 3-d printers facilitate it. Drug production for cocaine, heroin, cannabis and others is as simple as a garden. Not that I agree the kid should be arrested. I simply perceive the feasibility of software prohibition via government license to be as effective as it is for guns and drugs.
        • E6300 10y ago
          > Sales would be the point of control. Do you mean sales of the software itself? There's no way that could work. Secretly transferring a bitstring is one of the easiest things to do. At best you could catch the money laundering. > Drug production for cocaine, heroin, cannabis and others is as simple as a garden. I was thinking of drugs in general. Including for example antibiotics and cancer drugs. AFAIK, practically no one knows how to make stuff like that.
• wodencafe 10y ago
  So why isn't the FBI knocking at Bill Gates' door, for facilitating hacking, spyware and botnets with the Windows Operating System?
  • salesguy222 10y ago
    Of course I'm assuming you asked this question rhetorically, but I really feel the answer is worth stating explicitly :) Bill Gates is an extremely rich and politically connected individual. Technicalities rarely apply to them. To be arrested as a massively wealthy individual, you need to be committing crimes on the scale of Madoff, Enron, or murder with a weapon other than a drone :)
    • wodencafe 10y ago
      Unfortunately this is true. Massive wealth disparity has created different classes of people, including an Elite class, the wealthiest, who are treated like royalty.
      • salesguy222 10y ago
        Couldn't agree more, my friend. What will be even scarier and chilling is when they find a way to either fine, imprison, sue us for libel, or impugn us for pointing out their crimes using our freedom of speech! :)
  • ryanlol 10y ago
    Intent.
    • snag 10y ago
      This guy's intent was to create a software and sell it. His clients intents is another story.
      • shamsalmon 10y ago
        His intent was to create software to sell at hackforums which also sells pay-per-installs. I doubt there is even a single user on hackforums who bought his software who would use it for legitimate purposes.
• tyingq 10y ago
  Guess he should have marketed it to law enforcement and state spy agencies. They buy this sort of stuff all the time.
• ykler 10y ago
  Whatever you think about this case, the article is written in a deceptive way. For the first half of the article, you are told that he is being prosecuted for making a tool that was used by hackers against his intentions. But then you find out that that is just his side of the story. According to the feds, his intention was to help people commit crimes. And they have a pretty good reason to suspect that this was his intention in that he announced the software on a site for hackers.
  • NotSammyHagar 10y ago
    Oh no, a website for hackers. is hacker news a website for hackers, how about slashdot? If you are responsible for what people use your software for, even when you actively tell people not to do that, then it should also be true for guns, alchol (kids drink your bud beer, so arrest budweiser execs?). This is one of those fundamental questions, similar to do you own physical devices or just run the software on them, like the tractors. It should be you aren't responsible for what people do with your software, if there is any legimiate use. The prosecutorial power of the us govt is very large, and they can coerce people to plead guilty to crimes where they weren't really responsible.
    • paulajohnson 10y ago
      The article makes it pretty clear that this was "hack" in the criminal sense. The nature of the forum is a question of fact, and it sounds like the prosecution will have no difficulty in showing that lawbreaking was a major topic of conversation. With "Hacker News" on the other hand the hypothetical defense could easily demonstrate that it was for "hack" in the positive sense. Dictionaries routinely list both senses of the word.
      • NotSammyHagar 10y ago
        Perhaps the forums he sold it in were focused on illegal activity, it was mixed in the article. But lets get back to this forum - I am sure that there is discussion of how to subvert drm on hacker news (search far enough and you'll see it), and that's illegal. So if you were on trial and they used your posting on hacker news against you, they'd definitely call it "evil scary bad hacker news".
• kalekold 10y ago
  Do we hold manufacturers of guns responsible for the people who use them?
  • deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  • Jtsummers 10y ago
    Potentially, if they deliberately sold to criminals with knowledge (or a situation where they should have known) that the weapons would be used for criminal activity (as a primary purpose). However, this case seems a bit complex (though the article is pretty biased in making its case, but I'll take it at face value). The guy was dumb (my opinion) to sell it on the forum he did, but he did (apparently) make efforts to prevent its use for criminal purposes. But selling on a forum where one of the primary discussion channels is about criminal hacking, it should've been obvious that was a bad place to advertise this tool.
    • beardog 10y ago
      Not really disagreeing, but if I start a gun shop in a bad neighborhood (and then naturally a higher % of my customers will be more criminal in nature) does that make me liable?
      • Jtsummers 10y ago
        Potentially, if you have knowledge of their intended use for the weapons. You likely won't know, or can put yourself in a position where you can plead ignorance (meet at least the legal standards for sales with background checks and such). You have no obligation to sell in the first place. If a man comes in talking about their intent to shoot up a place, and then comes to you at the counter and asks to buy a gun, you can always turn him away. That's not likely to happen, but that's essentially what happened on the forums. People discussed how to (with malicious intent) hack other computers, and then purchased this guy's software (or pirated it). Now, again per the article, he tried to prevent that use (which is why I say in this case he seems to be just dumb), but it's still a highly questionable group of people to sell and advertise to.
• campuscodi 10y ago
  Oh. Look at the pretentious press trying to make a criminal look innocent. This guy knew exactly what he was doing. Trust me.
• hackermailman 10y ago
  The uT was sentenced to prison for writing software he didn't use either (TJ Maxx theft), they just used chat logs to prove he was part of a conspiracy and I'm sure FBI probably has similar PMs from this guy replying to potential customers or informants "proving" conspiracy.
• woliveirajr 10y ago
  Remembers me some virus that existed back in 1998, more or less, that would allow you to take control of some computer, see the screen, open CD-ROM, and so on. It was used as a base for some softwares that would replace VNC or some kind of remote management for Windows (when Microsoft solution was too expensive or too poor)
  • TorKlingberg 10y ago
    Are you thinking of NetBus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBus
    • woliveirajr 10y ago
      Perfect, I couldn't remember the name. Thanks! Some people say that a management suite developed in Brazil was made by taking the code and refactoring it. Indeed, some functions at that time were quite similar. And it was a great product, helped a lot at the company I worked at. Don't know if it's still that good, but surely I would recomend it back those days.
• iraklism 10y ago
  This is crazy. A vast majority of people working in my industry (infosec, most of us write tools that can be used for good/bad) should be behind bars if you follow that logic.
• zaroth 10y ago
  I can only hope they actually find a smoking gun implicating Taylor as a true conspirator in this case. Because the picture painted by the article puts a whole new meaning on 'chilling effect'. Did he pick the wrong place to advertise his code? HackForum could just have easily been Hacker News. According to the article Taylor actively worked to defend against malicious use of his software; deactivating accounts he found were using the software to launch attacks, and eventually removing functionality like password scraping and keylogging which ultimately proved too alluring to black hats. The tool has obvious non-infringing use. That it can also be used maliciously cannot be a factor. If NanoCore is a criminal conspiracy, I'd hate to think what the FBI thinks of Metasploit or Tor. The article puts forward a good theory for how the FBI might have found themselves in this position. They are used to barging into these guys houses, crawling through all their equipment, and finding actual evidence of collusion with black hats. They are used to pressing these guys to turn state's witness and in the past it's worked out great when a trusted malware provider landed them 100 convictions. I am shocked, shocked let me tell you, the FBI would, upon not finding any real evidence of a conspiracy, press on with charges against a sole developer with $60,000 to their name. Taylor Huddleston might not exactly be Aaron Swartz, but if the truth is anything like how The Daily Beast is telling it, Taylor is going to need a lot of help and a lot of support to get through this, and I hope he gets it.
  • bitJericho 10y ago
    If you're shocked it just means you haven't been keeping up with how the US treats it's so called citizens.
    • zaroth 10y ago
      It's a Casablanca quote. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME
      • bitJericho 10y ago
        Aha good one.
  • 10y ago
• barking 10y ago
  What's the legitimate use for remote keylogging?
  • soylentcola 10y ago
    Parents keeping an eye on their kids, schools monitoring students, small offices keeping an eye on staff, etc. That's my guess at least.
    • barking 10y ago
      Those uses of keylogging are about as legitimate as hidden cameras in hotel bedrooms, imo.
      • clavalle 10y ago
        If the bedroom was in the middle of an office, maybe.
    • kpcyrd 10y ago
      Not sure about the first one, but the later two are illegal in a lot of countries.
• bike4beer 10y ago
  I plugged this story a full 5 hours prior to this person, but my post is no where to be found, how is it that the first to post a story is the last to be found? I guess when you post on HN, its who you know, or something. Lastly, on subject, the gist and I don't see it here, perhaps nobody read the article, they went after the author because they couldn't find anyone else, simply put the person is public is the one that get's busted the real criminals smart enough to work 'anonymous' are exempt from arrest. Go figure.
• eternalban 10y ago
  Congratulations to the FBI for borrowing a page from the handbook of the mullocracy of Islamic Republic of Iran. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeed_Malekpour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeed_Malekpour (Have you noted dear reader that thugs act and look the same no matter where they are from?)
• kutkloon7 10y ago
  This week in the US: stupidity keeps prevailing.
• dmix 10y ago
  This trial might be a good thing ultimately to set good laws. Similar to the times they tried to sue tobacco companies and gun manufacturers for the deaths of people. Those cases rightfully died in court and set precedents to block future wasteful cases. Even using the gun analogy this wasn't even selling a full gun just a part of one - as this tool is useless in isolation in terms of hacking - and probably one of the easiest parts of hacking. Getting access is typically the expensive risky part. There's a far better case against zero days being sold but even that has plenty of legitimate use cases for red teaming. But it's still closer to selling loaded guns and needs to be carefully sold, not so much with this case, just from a social good perspective not even regulations (which I think are a bad idea, such as the one regulating zero days in europe). It's just too bad this guy has to go through hell for this cause. Hopefully he sets up a legal donation page to get the best team he can. Gun/tobacco companies typically have legal teams. This is just a small time ISV, so this still makes me very upset it's being done to such a vulnerable person, which could very likely create bad laws.
• yAnonymous 10y ago
  We should mass-report RATs like TeamViewer to the FBI. It's not fair that some get a taste of democracy and others don't.
  • TACIXAT 10y ago
    I used to do malware analysis. We should also report MS Office macro functionality, AutoIT, Metasploit, and VNC. Maybe go after RSA too for crypto used in ransom ware. If this goes through it will set a horrible precedent. While I wouldn't be too happy having certain software classified as cyber arms, if that's what needed to happen to get the same protections as weapon manufacturers, so be it.
• danschumann 10y ago
  If someone uses a hammer to bludgeon, then is the hammer maker responsible? No. I thought people suing gun companies solved this, saying the manufacturer is NOT responsible!
• danschumann 10y ago
  The real question is: if someone makes a product that deliberately makes it easier to break the law, is he guilty in breaking the law, or complicit? Deliberate is the key word in this case. Complicity depends on knowledge of what they're doing. I think perhaps criminal negligence is all he could be charged with, but I don't know. Sounds like he wasn't an angel, but not totally dubious either, based on how he advertised the product and what it actually did. Makes me wonder though, the software developed by pen-testers could be stolen and used for nefarious purposes. Do the pen-testers get held responsible for everything they do? Or are we judging based on this individual's spirit? He wanted to make money, so he enabled bad people to do bad things, advertising on bad sites. Even though this article is framing it like he was an angel because SJWs need fake news to feel like heroes?
  • Vendan 10y ago
    As a pen tester, I largely use open source and "nefarious derived" software...
• deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
• joshstrange 10y ago
  > “It’s like saying that if someone buys a handgun and uses it to rob a liquor store, that the handgun manufacturer is complicit.” Except it's really more like someone stealing a handgun and then using it to rob a liquor store, and then blaming the handgun manufacturer.
• lwlml 10y ago
  So, when is the FBI going to arrest the distributors of Kali Linux or Linus Torvalds, the head of a massive association of associates who create and support the defacto operating system of hacking that Kali is built upon? Sometimes I think it might be better to not be in the technology industry where outsiders can only see what you do as magic and declare you "A Witch!" and come at you with rakes, pitchforks and BearCats.
  • jmcdiesel 10y ago
    If Linus were advertising and supporting his software on a forum with a heavy focus on non-ethical hacking, that might be an apt analogy. He made the app for unethical purposes... his advertising in said forums is a clear indicator of that. Lets not rally being people who are actively trying to reduce security on the web...
    • SolarNet 10y ago
      Linux is advertised all the time on a site called Hacker News. This isn’t only "hacking" in the innocent "innovative coding" sense of the word. The participants in this particular forum regularly discuss computer intrusion, some academically, others practically. (sarcastic variation of a similar sentence from the article)
    • syshum 10y ago
      Linux was originally advertised on evil Usenet... I here there is all kinds of bad things there. Get him
• tomjen3 10y ago
  And at the same time, on this very website, we see social scientists saying that "we are losing the information war". No wonder, when institutions behave like that why should we have any trust in them? Of course when you're used to people trusting and obeying you, it becomes so natural that you stop thinking about it. That's a problem for you, and the rest of us, the day it no longer happens. That day is getting closer and closer, thanks to idiots like the FBI officers in the article. For a lot of people it is already too late. In a world where you can choose your news, people make up their minds at most once on a subject and then they are set for life — and they will have an effect on the opinions of their family and friends, which will do further harm to the trust in your institution.
• jmcdiesel 10y ago
  Not to fault him for lying through his teeth... you gotta defend yourself... But he is lying. He supported and advertised the software on an unethical hacking site. Thats extremely clear intent, on his part... hes hosed, and he deserves it. Why people here are standing up for unethical hacking is... beyond me...
  • mindcrime 10y ago
    "unethical" <> "illegal". And even if he did violate some bogus statutory bullshit posing as "law", hackers (of all stripes) should be supporting him because of the precedent setting effect, and the chilling effect, of holding software makers liable for the actions of downstream users of that software. This is not a path we want to start down.
    • jmcdiesel 10y ago
      I want people who make software designed to do harm to be held accountable. Since he promoted and supported it in a place focused on harmful hacking, his intent was very clear. Him being held accountable is a good precedent to set.
      • mindcrime 10y ago
        I want people who make software designed to do harm to be held accountable I don't. I want people who cause harm to be held accountable. I might barely buy your position IF the software had ONLY "non legitimate" uses, but that's clearly not the case here.
• TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
  > Hacker who hacked no-one Okay, what did they do, then? > Made software abused by hackers Oh, that's unfortunate. It was just a legitimate exploit tool, right? > RAT Okay, that's a potentially legitimate type of software— > advertised on HackForums …the case pretty much writes itself. Nobody who has heard of that site can claim with a straight face that software marketed there has innocent intent. The article is sympathetic and argues the author had innocent intentions. Perhaps that's the case, but the problem is that it would be very difficult to persuade people of that, given that someone who in truth did have malintent might act exactly the same (e.g. the disclaimers attached to other such hacking tools).
  • mindcrime 10y ago
    Perhaps that's the case, but the problem is that it would be very difficult to persuade people of that Nobody has to be persuaded that he had innocent intentions. In the US, we base our legal system on presumption of innocence. The onus is on the State to prove that he committed a crime. And if "Intent" is what makes his actions a crime (or not) then then State have to persuade a jury that he had malicious intent. The presumption is that he did not.
  • andrewflnr 10y ago
    It seems like he just stumbled on HackForums and grew comfortable there. It was his place, and having a lot of bad actors around was just normal, even though he wasn't one of them
  • syshum 10y ago
    >>>The article is sympathetic and argues the author had innocent intentions. Perhaps that's the case, but the problem is that it would be very difficult to persuade people of that So you support the idea of Guilty until proven innocent, combined with Guilt by Association. What a terrible combo Most people believe it is up to government (or anyone making the claim it was not for legit use) to prove their claim, it is not up to the defendant to prove they had innocent intentions.
    • TazeTSchnitzel 10y ago
• mindcrime 10y ago
  This is so much bullshit. Here's hoping the EFF and others can come to his aid. Anybody know if there's anywhere to contribute to his legal defense fund?
• mankash666 10y ago
  I don't get it. Building a road doesn't make you an accomplice to crime, if a criminal happens to drive on it
  • Strom 10y ago
    Intent matters. Roads aren't built with the intent of facilitating crime. A firearm is a better comparsion, because it's built with the intent to kill. Indeed this is the defense route that many are choosing here for this app. However there's an additional problem, in that this app was originally launched on HackForums, where the author also frequents. HackForums is a cesspool of criminals, so while there are some legitimate use cases that can be conjured up for this app, none of those legitimate users would visit HackForums.
    • sGatling1788 10y ago
      The gun analogy is good but shouldn't there be more than just intent? Otherwise, a gun-owner merely frequenting a section of town known for crime activity would suffice as "intent".
• sGatling1788 10y ago
  Pirated implies proprietary software. Lesson: anything that is even remotely related to security should be written as open source.
• arca_vorago 10y ago
  Seeing how many people here are defending the FBI really makes me question if HN is still the place it used to be and if it is a place that I want to continue in. I have noticed a large increase here in apeasers of totalitarian approaches to software and hardware over the last few years. What ever happend to the hacker spirit of freedom of knowledge, information, data, and the ability to write and read code as you see fit? I still see an agreement on GPLv3 now and then, but HN is increasingly seeming more infected by silicon valley business types who want to pretend to be hackers and don't understand or subscribe to the core concepts that enabled the computing revolution in the first place.
  • someguydave 10y ago
    There is definitely a spirit of "have the state come and rescue us from ourselves" here in HN and it is getting worse.
• 23443463453 10y ago
  Along with the rather ridiculous presser by Marco Rubio, regarding claims of "Russian infiltration into his staff computers" where, when asked if someone … anyone … could have just used a VPN to masquerade as Russians just like anyone of us could have, his response what "A what?"; it is starting to really get a bit ridiculous just how computer illiterate people are. In many ways it's totally unacceptable today that someone like a political leader will have absolutely zero knowledge of even the most basic technology related matters. It extends to both sides of the isle too; the uniquely bipartisan issue of the day, career politicians that are former lawyers who act as though they are actually qualified to be political leaders. Lawyers should be doing the legal work in the background, not service in any kind of elected political role. It is our won fault. We should not be electing lawyers to anythings whatsoever other than maybe, and just maybe, to judgeships.
• thweealc 10y ago
  Does anyone know if this kid has a defense fund?
• binarynate 10y ago
  I like how the code included in the graphic is CSS, as if he is at large for hideous styles.
• tobltobs 10y ago
  This is a case where the German legislation did surpass US laws in stupidity. In Germany there is the so called Hackerparagraph § 202c which provides for the procurement and distribution of access codes to access protected data, as well as the production and use of tools which are useful for this purpose as a criminal offense. I am astonished by the amount of comments here who do believe that this kind of legal proceeding against software tools would help to improve security. Do you really want to live in a world where you have to hide a nmap CD somewhere in your backyard. And no, that is not another situation, as it impossible to draw a line.
• puppycodes 10y ago
  scary... but also lol at the css in the background image
• tptacek 10y ago
  Reprising a Lobste.rs comment: I pulled the indictment from PACER. The story is oversimplifying the case. The indictment is far more concerned with Huddleston’s affiliation with Zachary Shames, who was convicted (apparently dead-to-rights) for selling a keylogger called “Limitless”. The indictment mentions Limitless more than it mentions NanoCore. Shames wasn’t very smart: the DOJ has records of him providing tech support to users who were clearly using his keylogger to harm people. Huddleston has two big problems. The first is that he sold licensing software to Shames for the Limitless keylogger. The second is that the DOJ apparently has Huddleston and Shames in a Skype group together talking about this stuff. The Beast article snarks about the indictment mentioning HackForums repeatedly. But the Beast article doesn’t think it’s important for you to know about the HackForums Skype group Huddleston and Shames shared; in fact, Shames himself gets only a tiny sliver of the article, despite being the fulcrum of the indictment. RAT software theoretically has legitimate uses. But, obviously, we all know that most RAT software isn’t legitimate. NanoCore sure wasn’t. It has a DDoS botnet tab, for Christ’s sake. Huddleston’s attempts to position it as legitimate software are about as compelling as the “no copyright claimed” comments on a Youtube video. But having said that: it’s unlikely Huddleston would be in the amount of trouble he is in had he simply written a malicious RAT. His problems are his connections to a criminal conspiracy that got busted.
  • kup0 10y ago
    Yes, I wish tech news organizations would actually have provided the whole story. Thank you for this additional information (both in regards to Zachary and the DDoS Botnet tab in NanoCore) as having those facts paints this situation in a much different light.
• dbrian82 10y ago
  hi,i'm Brian, i had my friend help me hack my ex's email, facebook, whatsapp,and his phone cause i suspected he was cheating. all he asked for was a his phone number. he's email is (hotcyberlord425@gmail.com)..IF u need help tell him Brian referred you to him and he'll help. Am sure his going to help you do it, good luck
• TehCorwiz 10y ago
  IBM participated in apartheid[0] in South Africa, providing hardware and software to the government to run the passbook system which enabled widespread racial profiling. They have yet to be held accountable[1], despite having participated directly. Say what you will about the author of NanoCore, he participated in the supposed crimes less than IBM did in apartheid. [0]: http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~cale/cs201/apartheid.comp.html http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~cale/cs201/apartheid.co... [1]: http://hrp.law.harvard.edu/areas-of-focus/previous-areas-of-focus/in-re-south-african-apartheid-litigation/ http://hrp.law.harvard.edu/areas-of-focus/previous-areas-of-...