8 ms·

Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

573 points by rdeboo 6mo ago

rdeboo 6mo ago
[flagged]
washingupliquid 6mo ago
...and Apple will be exempt due to a loophole in the law (80% after 1k cycles) making the law utterly pointless.
- close04 6mo ago
  This makes no sense but I still see it mindlessly repeated to exhaustion. That mention is in no way Apple specific, it’s a quality of the battery itself. Any manufacturer is in the same position, not like Apple has a monopoly on batteries that hold 80% charge after 1000 cycles.
  - xp84 6mo ago
    I don’t understand how this could be measured fairly though. What kind of cycles? What temperatures was it exposed to? Charged fast or slow? This is an incomplete set of criteria, which seems designed specifically to be meaningless / gameable. To me this seems like saying you can sell a car with a sealed gas tank as long as it “gets 40 miles per gallon.” And GM gets to decide the test course for measuring MPG, which will be a 2-mile slightly downhill coast with no stopping. Surprise! All our cars get 40-60MPG! The unspoken implication here is that if your phone still retains 80% after 1000 cycles, then it’s probably so old and obsolete by then that battery replacement would be a silly waste of time, so why burden people with these “onerous rules” in that case. But in reality, nothing about that metric, even if it’s true, means that customers don’t need to replace their batteries. My iPhone 15 Pro Max is in dire need of a battery replacement, at 82% after only 714 cycles. Aside from the battery, I have literally zero motivation to replace this phone. The phone manufacturers hate the idea that the battery might get replaced, because in this day and age it’s pretty much the only reason a 2 to 3-year-old phone (especially a flagship) isn’t extremely adequate for 99% of the population.
    - micromacrofoot 6mo ago
      In the US the EPA gets to set the guidelines for mileage testing, which GM has to follow. We've already had a major case in penalties for not following the guidelines via VW and emissions. It will likely boil down to "typical use" so in the event that someone wants to bring Apple to court over it and demonstrate the issue, it could solidify what's currently a little vague. Laws aren't required to get it perfect out of the gate. > then it’s probably so old and obsolete by then that battery replacement would be a silly waste of time obsolescence is a spectrum, if a swappable battery mandate gives a small % of devices a few extra years it would be worth it... I already give old devices to family members and kids on the "free is better than nothing" spectrum and a swappable battery would have extended the life at least a few of said devices, in my personal experience
- micromacrofoot 6mo ago
  not really! at the very least it requires more thought around battery quality the choice for budget devices is now 1. better battery 2. removability (likely more expensive and complicates water-tightness )
  - alt227 6mo ago
    The supposed aim of this is to reduce e-waste. But when 90% of smartphones sold are iPhones and Samsung Galaxies which are exempt it makes this bill completely pointless, as the ewaste it will save is a small fraction of a percentage of the total.
    - micromacrofoot 6mo ago
      > the ewaste it will save well we agree that it will work at least a little, which looks like a good start to me
      - alt227 6mo ago
        We agree that it works a little, but not that it is a good start. If this bill had just targetted all battery devices it would have made an incredible change. But as usual it was lobbied into near non existence. Why do we have to be content with tiny chips away at a serious issue instead of insisting it is dealt with properly?
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
- vlovich123 6mo ago
  Yup, that’s a pretty wild loophole. I think they’re targeting the lower end of the market probably to reduce most of the ewaste.
- mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
  I keep hearing this over and over, but it's neglected to add that it sets a minimum durability requirement which applies only for a very small niche of ruggedized waterproof devices Unless your device complies to MIL-STD-810G CN1 and has the certification to back it up your product will be required to add user replaceable batteries
  - 0xffff2 6mo ago
    >Unless your device complies to MIL-STD-810G CN1 and has the certification to back it up your product will be required to add user replaceable batteries Can you provide your source for this? If nothing else, it's very surprising to me that an EU regulation uses a US standard as the baseline! Edit: Having done a bit of reading on the standard, it also seems like the regulation needs quite a bit of detail if it really does rely on the MIL-STD, since the standard only defines test procedures, not pass/fail criteria?
- criddell 6mo ago
  Are you sure the loophole exists? AFAIK, this is the regulation: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1542/oj/eng https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1542/oj/eng I don't see that exemption listed. The other ones are, but not that one.
  - 0xffff2 6mo ago
    Take this with a mountain of salt since I've not at all an expert, but with a little help from AI, it seems like the exemption lives in 2023/1670 [0]. The LLM claims that this and the regulation you link are interconnected, with the recital of 2023/1542 explicitly linking them. 0: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32023R1670&qid=1777916834413 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
gonzalohm 6mo ago
The link is not working for me, but I hope they have defined what "removable" means (removable without special tools) If not, a lot of companies are going to argue that they already make removable batteries
- aniviacat 6mo ago
  > If a special tool is required for replacement, the manufacturer must provide it free of charge.
  - ortusdux 6mo ago
    IIRC, screwdrivers and prying tools are not considered special. Removal cannot require solvents or heat, but I believe those pull tab glue pads are allowed.
    - Pxtl 6mo ago
      I wish those prying tools were considered "special". I have a very low success rate at opening up any device that's held together with "clips" without snapping any plastic. It inevitably means "force it just hard-enough to break stuff if you don't do it absolutely perfectly".
  - mkozlows 6mo ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-service-iphone-repair-kit-hands-on https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-servi... 79-pound hyper-elaborate repair kit. Expensive for them to send out, but since only two people will ever want them to, probably amortizes well.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- alt227 6mo ago
  Also, removeable by who? Its all very well saying its removeable, but thats useless if only possible by a skilled techinician with tools. I dont see the term 'user-removable' anywhere.
close04 6mo ago
I think this was discussed recently on HN. It’s not a bad idea. There’s nothing about this that “ruins” anything else. This is not specific for phones even if everyone focuses on them. The usual arguments are waterproofing and thinness but we can still have them with removable batteries.
wmf 6mo ago
There's an exception for batteries that "retain at least 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles." Coincidentally, iPhones and probably other flagships already qualify for this exception.
- spockz 6mo ago
  That had me thinking as well. What if the manufacturer says that to get to that number you are only allowed to charge it to 80% ever? My iPhone pro battery is at 92% at 417 cycles over 20 months.
  - sokoloff 6mo ago
    Do what EVs do: make 100% on the display not 100.0% electro-chemically and 0% not be 0.0% chemically. This is a serious suggestion, as I think it’s actually net beneficial for the consumer.
    - creaturemachine 6mo ago
      There's no coming back from 0% chemically. Running li-ions that low results in physical damage.
    - Semaphor 6mo ago
      This is already the case and has been so for a long time. But it's a trade off between longevity and capacity
    - deleted 6mo ago
      [deleted]
    - LeifCarrotson 6mo ago
      The problem is that consumers want to buy a phone with 24 hours of runtime and an EV with 200 miles of range, and they want the phone to be thin and light and the car to be fast and light, and manufacturers want to achieve those capacities with as little electrochemistry as possible. The number of charge cycles at full capacity will be a big deal a year or two in, but on the sales floor it's a secondary concern for typical buyers and sellers. Playing fast and loose with the numbers, I'm sure that if 100% on the display was 80% in the battery and 0% was 20%, you'd have an amazing number of charge cycles. You could program that 40% of unused capacity to be reduced as the battery ages very slowly, and by the time the used capacity is only at 80% of its original revealed capacity you're at many thousands of cycles. But you'd have a phone or car that weighed 40% more and cost 40% more than one that had no buffer and ran at the bleeding edge on day 1. Absent breakthroughs in battery chemistry, this basically regulates the amount of buffer capacity that manufacturers are required to include in their ~~lies~~ marketing materials.
_diyar 6mo ago
Rule does not apply to gadgets that already retain 80% charge capacity at 1k charge cycles. What is the share of the smartphone market that this applies to?
- hedora 6mo ago
  0%. Wait, that’s not true: In true regulatory capture fashion, I’ll bet the exemption requires some sort of testing/certification that makes it significantly more expensive for smaller firms to bring devices to market.
  - seszett 6mo ago
    > I’ll bet the exemption requires some sort of testing/certification that makes it significantly more expensive for smaller firms to bring devices to market. Maybe that would be the case in the US but since that is the EU it will likely be some kind of self-certification where the manufacturer swears that they're not lying, and if enough people complain then maybe one of the national regulators will look into it and ask the manufacturer to do better.
  - dgellow 6mo ago
    Might be a good idea to verify before sharing misinformation
  - reaperducer 6mo ago
    Recently my 2021 macBook gave me an alert that its battery was not charging past 80%. I took it to the Apple Store and because it had only been through 971 charge cycles, the battery was replaced for free.
    - rootusrootus 6mo ago
      I'm still waiting for 2023 MBP to hit that point. It's at 82% right now, with 67 cycles. It's been stuck at 82% for a few months now, though, stubbornly staying in the "normal" range.
- 6mo ago
spockz 6mo ago
My initial reaction as an EU citizen is “oh hell no” because it gave me flashbacks to removable covers with clips that broke my nails. But after reading the article where it mentions that the battery is also considered removable if standard tools should be used, I’m quite okay with it. I welcome getting more rugged and durable devices.
- xp84 6mo ago
  Serious question: how are you worse off with a cover that breaks your nails vs. the status quo: a cover that’s glued on and a battery that’s glued in? If they did bring that back, couldn’t you just not open the cover and be just as happy?
  - spockz 6mo ago
    The covers were typically flimsy and used flimsy hooks in addition to the flimsy push pin. Actually most of my annoyance stems from the hooks breaking easily and the covers not closing flush. I would not want to return to that time where dropping a phone leads to covers flying around. It is my assumption that any cover that still requires screws that it will be both more sturdy and easier to close flush. The current status quo of having sleek devices while having batteries relatively easily replaced yourself or even quite cheaply in every phone shop. I’m not so bothered by the status quo.
  - elzbardico 6mo ago
    IGNORE: duplicated
    - kjkjadksj 6mo ago
      You already wrote this comment before
      - elzbardico 6mo ago
        fuck, can't delete.
- 6mo ago
Fraterkes 6mo ago
Not perfect, but the “80% capacity after 1000 cycles” part at least creates some decent incentives imo.
daoboy 6mo ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195
IndrekR 6mo ago
Was discussed recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195
thewavelength 6mo ago
I just called the shop to replace the perfectly fine e-Call battery in my soon four year old Hyundai car. 250€ to change a battery that has a ten year lifespan. I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer (not the one by law). Why is this stuff not considered as well? Also curious whether the "specialized devices" exemptions are AND requirements. Even if those are AND, wouldn’t smartphone manufacturers try to satisfy all three of them?
- jorams 6mo ago
  > I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer. Why is this stuff not considered as well? They're the ones paying for repairs, so it doesn't seem that unreasonable? That said: If you can prove the car is being maintained according to the manufacturer's specifications they can't require you to go to a brand dealership. That's just not necessarily easy to prove.
  - kjkjadksj 6mo ago
    Recalls don’t require you to have had maintained the car at the dealership previousy
    - jorams 6mo ago
      A recall means the manufacturer shipped a faulty product. If you can prove you received a faulty product such requirements also don't apply.
  - thewavelength 6mo ago
    TIL. Thanks for letting me know.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6mo ago
  Why are you replacing it if it is perfectly fine?
Pxtl 6mo ago
The introduction of glue into the assembly of consumer electronics is a crime against humanity and the Earth. If Timex could make iron-man watches 100-meter waterproof with Phillips-head jeweler's screws back in the '80s, there's no good reason smartphones and laptops can't. And there's a whole host of bad reasons to eschew screws.
- echoangle 6mo ago
  Of course you can build a waterproof smartphone with screws (except the screen has to be bonded to the glass for capacitive touch to work and the glass to the frame so there’s still some glueing involved), but it would probably have 1cm bezels around the screen.
  - extraduder_ire 6mo ago
    > the screen has to be bonded to the glass for capacitive touch to work and the glass to the frame so there’s still some glueing involved Why? That might make alignment easier, but I don't think the screen plays any role in the touchscreen digitiser working. I've even seen videos of them still working when separated from the display.
Aurornis 6mo ago
As others have mentioned this is for phones with batteries that can’t survive a reasonable number of cycles. That’s a reasonable exemption, in my opinion. I don’t want to pay the extra penalties of reduced structural rigidity and water tightness for a battery that I don’t need to replace for 3-4 years anyway. I do wish one manufacturer would make a flagship phone with replaceable battery so all of the uncompromising replaceable battery fans could have a phone that fits their niche demands rather than trying to force everyone else to pay the extra costs (price, size, water intrusion, structural rigidity) that would come with laws forcing all phones to have removable batteries.
- mrandish 6mo ago
  This regulation isn't primarily for fans of replaceable batteries, it's driven by general concerns about e-waste. It's unclear how much it might actually reduce e-waste in practice but it will certainly increase compliance costs.
  - detourdog 6mo ago
    At least it's a performance standard. If the Government is going to regulate consumer products I would rather it be performance standards than implementation details. If a device doesn't meet performance standards it can trigger warranty requirements.
- mossTechnician 6mo ago
  Many flagship phones promise 7 years of security updates now. 3-4 years means the battery will only last for half that time, and heavy users (1 cycle per day) will hit that quota in under 2.75 years.
  - IanCal 6mo ago
    Importantly “last” means that it will have at least 80% battery capacity left.
    - 6mo ago
sokoloff 6mo ago
What is a “special tool”? A Philips screwdriver is pretty clearly not, but is a T-5 Torx? A security T-5? A Tri-wing? A Pentalobe?
- layer8 6mo ago
  Any tool you can’t get at a random local hardware store.
- sschueller 6mo ago
  Why does the Pentalobe exist in the first place?
  - spiritplumber 6mo ago
    in one product design i did, unironically because the customer thought that six-star screws were antisemitic
    - anonymars 6mo ago
      Antisemitic geometry. Now I've seen everything Imagine the lasting havoc the Nazis could have wrought if they adopted a + instead of a swastika
- espadrine 6mo ago
  > A portable battery should be considered to be removable by the end-user when it can be removed with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless they are provided free of charge […] to disassemble it. > Commercially available tools are considered to be tools available on the market to all end-users without the need for them to provide evidence of any proprietary rights and that can be used with no restriction, except health and safety-related restrictions. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1542/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1542/oj
- daemonologist 6mo ago
  "Special tool" is not used in the actual regulation; the requirement is that replacement must be possible with basic tools, defined: > (50) 'basic tools' means a screwdriver for slotted heads, a screwdriver for cross recess screws, a screwdriver for hexalobular recess heads [Torx], a hexagon socket key, a combination wrench, combination pliers, combination pliers for wire stripping and terminal crimping, half round nose pliers, diagonal cutters, multigrip pliers, locking pliers, a prying lever, tweezers, magnifying glass, a spudger and a pick; (Excepted devices can require "commercially available tools" which is defined exactly as you'd expect.) https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1670/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1670/oj
matchbok3 6mo ago
While sounding nice in theory, these sorts of regulations will certainly curtail innovation while providing very, very little value elsewhere. If people wanted removable batteries in their phones, they would buy them a lot. They don't.
- mossTechnician 6mo ago
  Which flagship phones with replaceable batteries can customers buy? Samsung was the last major brand in the US to have one, and they made the choice to remove it.
  - matchbok3 6mo ago
    Not sure. But there are plenty of flip phones with removable batteries.
    - anonymars 6mo ago
      So you're suggesting we all just need to buy exclusively flip phones for a few years to send the market a signal that it wants replaceable batteries. Then the free market will do its thing and keep the engine of innovation running Speaking of which, does anyone want to do a list of "features added to smartphones over the last 10 years" vs "features removed from smartphones over the last 10 years" so we can see just what innovations are at risk?
      - matchbok3 6mo ago
        I'm not suggesting anything, I'm simply offering the reality of the smartphone market. What you are suggesting is a contrived, exaggerated take of how markets function. People generally like small, thin phones, as evidenced by the billions sold. It really isn't much more complicated than that.
        deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]
somethingsome 6mo ago
It would be nice to have mandatory SD cards..
- WesolyKubeczek 6mo ago
  SD cards and phone jacks!
cmiles8 6mo ago
Headline is misleading as the loopholes written into the regulation will likely end up exempting many/most phones
- protimewaster 6mo ago
  Didn't they remove many of the exemptions in the final, adopted bill?
  - cmiles8 6mo ago
    Not really… the rules were heavily influenced by big tech in a way that basically exempts many devices. For example iPhone 15 onwards already meets the defined standard and thus doesn’t need a user replaceable battery. So the headline is misleading. Removable batteries aren’t mandatory. They’re only mandatory if the battery fails to meet certain performance standards.
    - protimewaster 6mo ago
      Based on other comments, there are apparently two separate sets of rules. One of them has exceptions and supplies specifically to phones and tablets, and one of them doesn't have any exceptions and applies more generally.
vardump 6mo ago
80% after 1000 cycles. I hope that doesn’t mean faking battery health instead.
- estimator7292 6mo ago
  When has a legally mandated metric ever been gamed into a loophole? /s
- palata 6mo ago
  Would be easy to say "if the software says "< 80%" after 1000 cycles, the warranty applies and the manufacturer has to replace it for free. I guess the law won't say that though.
subhobroto 6mo ago
I'm not a fan of regulation in general but over the last decade it has been extremely frustrating with the removal of replaceable SD cards and batteries from Androids. I never put my phones in my back pocket nor do I wear butt hugging leggings, so having a thick phone stick out my ass and make it look bad isn't on my list of worries. I end up purchasing thick waterproof cases for these slim phones anyways. What's most confusing is the premium phones lack replaceable SD cards and batteries - it's like they are trying to take the worst ideas from the Apple ecosystem and simply don't understand why some people use Androids. Surprisingly, it's the cheaper models that carry replaceable SD cards and batteries - I would have imagined the opposite! I often go on trips and hikes with poor cellular coverage and having some SD cards with useful information or being able to swap them out as the camera gets full is really helpful. Attaching drives over the USB port isn't really practical. When I do have cellular coverage, I might have to rapidly download a LOT of data, which overheats the phone and discharges the battery. With a replaceable battery, this isn't even an issue. The benefits of replaceable batteries cannot be overstated when you're not on the grid or take great care of the phone where they last more than a few years. I can have a few batteries charged, during the day using solar that I can then just swap them in as evening sets in, instead of having to plug the phone into a powerbank and pray it doesn't shut off as I keep using it.
- catdog 6mo ago
  I think in general not being able to replace the battery toolless is quite an acceptable compromise nowadays. The needed mechanism and the protective shell the replaceable battery needs definitely takes up space which can be used for more capacity instead. You have (sometimes quite insane) fast charging and also powerbanks which support it. Also quality batteries can be quite durable. The real problem I think is the hostility towards repair, glue everywhere, no spare parts, etc.
  - subhobroto 6mo ago
    Good points, but from a chemistry perspective, fast charging is detrimental to the battery. It would be more efficient to have two or three batteries standard charged to 70% that you can swap in as you go than have one that you need to repeatedly fast charge. I argue that easier they make for user to swap batteries themselves, higher the demand for the batteries will be, thus lower their price. > The needed mechanism and the protective shell the replaceable battery needs definitely takes up space This is true > The real problem I think is the hostility towards repair, glue everywhere, no spare parts, etc. I think when a manufacturer isn't designing to allow a regular customer (the owner) to be able to replace the battery themselves, using glue and restricting spare parts is a natural consequence of financial realities: Most people are not going to take a $500 phone that has been used a few years to a shop that will need to charge $100+ in just labor to swap out a battery. So there's no incentive to have a bunch of spare batteries. I'm a huge fan of user replaceable batteries because in addition of obvious benefits, you can also just remove the battery and power it simply off USB-C when running something heavy on the phone for extended periods of time. A battery used in that scenario wouldn't just overheat itself but stop the phone from cooling off too.
dmos62 6mo ago
I've a plan: 2027 I'm buying a Motorola with first-party support for GrapheneOS and a replaceable battery. Things are looking up!
- dddw 6mo ago
  Yes! Hope they deliver some decent enough device
- cyklosarin 6mo ago
  There is almost zero chance that the Motorola phones will come with a replaceable battery and likely fall under the exemption anyways. The GOS supported phones will all be flagship level devices (i.e. Signature/RAZR).
k12sosse 6mo ago
Why not anything that has a battery? Why just cellphones?
- M2Ys4U 6mo ago
  The regulation does cover everything that uses batteries.
infecto 6mo ago
This is a waste of money. All flagship phones have hit the requirements so do not need to make them removable. It might impact some of the budget garbage but not yet clear. All this will do is increase compliance costs.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  > All flagship phones have hit the requirements Lots of non-flagship phones making e-waste. This is a sensibly-tailored regulation, targeting the problem instead of specifying a solution because some bureaucrat likes replaceable batteries.
  - infecto 6mo ago
    Nobody has quantified what lots means. Which is my issue. The article just says many. Lots and many do not make great legislation.
- danaw 6mo ago
  based on many comments in this thread your statement is not accurate. for example my iphone 15 pro is at 83% with 654 cycles. clearly it will drop below 80% in less than 1000 cycles
  - drstewart 6mo ago
    The bar clearly won't be "any random person's phone meeting this criteria", so what your specific phone does doesn't really matter.
    - danaw 6mo ago
      many others in the comments have this same issue (and the internet at large). my point is just that it's not obvious that apple has met this claim with real world devices. it will be seen how the actual requirements will be validated, likely in a way that favors the "best case" scenario for apple.
everdrive 6mo ago
The number of people worried about a slightly thicker phone are absolutely baffling to me. I honestly think there is no hope for us broadly. Normally I'd say that people cannot deal with minor inconveniences -- but this does not even register as an inconvenience. From my view, this is a _perceived_ downgrade in luxury status. Not even a real downgrade in luxury status -- and not a downgrade in convenience whatsoever.
- dec0dedab0de 6mo ago
  I want my phone 5 times thicker, just put as many batteries as you can fit in there.
- JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
  > this does not even register as an inconvenience You don’t have any idiosyncratic product preferences?
  - alt227 6mo ago
    Not ones where design decisions reduce features for no other reason.
    - izacus 6mo ago
      Stop lying.
- SauntSolaire 6mo ago
  I would also consider swapping a battery once every four years a minor inconvenience.
- retired 6mo ago
  A slightly thicker back so that in four years time it will take me 5 minutes versus 60 minutes to change the battery? Yes, that sounds like something I am not interested in.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
romperstomper 6mo ago
And make all these batteries compatible among all smartphone brands
- SauntSolaire 6mo ago
  The size and shape of the battery depends on the size and shape of the phone, as well as the internal structure (which is highly variable). At that point you might as well just legislate that everyone build iPhone 17's.
junglistguy 6mo ago
[dead]
clever-leap 6mo ago
Does this need a law? Most phones have replaceable battery.
- al_borland 6mo ago
  > Easy replacement: Batteries must be replaceable using standard tools (e.g., screwdrivers). > No barriers: The use of adhesives that can only be removed with heat or solvents is prohibited. > Tools: If a special tool is required for replacement, the manufacturer must provide it free of charge. > Spare parts guarantee: Replacement batteries must be available to end users at a reasonable price for at least 5 years. When it comes to most phones I've seen... Easy replacement: Currently, special tools are needed to heat the glue holding on the screen, picks to pry it up, and then there are various ways to release the glue holding in the battery. No barriers: Currently, there are adhesives used for both the screen and battery. Depending on the phone this may require a solvent, heat, or electrical release... maybe a combination of these. Tools: Currently, tools are not provided with the phone and kits need to be purchased in addition to the battery to complete the repair. Spare parts guarantee: I think this is very hit and miss based on the manufacturer, but I suspect most replacement batteries people are buying are not coming from the OEM.
kandros 6mo ago
Absolutely trash aftermarket batteries that are e-waste in 6 months here we come!
poisonborz 6mo ago
Classic EU move, the last-minute 1000-cycle exemption undercuts the entire regulation.
- elzbardico 6mo ago
  Looks like saner minds prevailed. Almost nobody needs or wants that. Having to pay a street corner repair shop to replace a battery only after 3 or 4 years of usage is completely worth a price to pay for having thinner batteries.
  - poisonborz 6mo ago
    HN / pro user forums alone are a massive indicator of the need for this. Same argument could be made in the form of almost nobody needs or wants "thinner batteries". Not many are going for the street corner for this, and it is insane that people are throwing away 2-3-4 year old perfectly capable high end devices. Not just because of battery but lack of support and closed ecosystem. The industry is incentivised to go towards unrepairable throwaway products you are forced to renew. The madness needs to stop.
- protimewaster 6mo ago
  The previous discussion of the bill on HN noted that the newest version of the bill is the one without the exemption. Is that incorrect?
- levocardia 6mo ago
  Would have been even more classic EU to not add the exception and have all Europeans stuck with a slower, bulkier, and more expensive "EU edition" of a phone.
tamimio 6mo ago
I want a phone with li-ion 18650! Because having a replaceable batteries won’t prevent the manufacturer from increasing those batteries prices so it’s equal to non replaceable ones. It would be great to have 18650 as a standard in all electronics, so you just carry dozens of them when you go out and you are set up for the weekend, no recharging, maybe even add hot swap too.
HunOL 6mo ago
All new phones sold in the EU already include information on declared battery life and the number of charge cycles before reaching 80% battery health. The vast majority of phones will meet this requirement.
proee 6mo ago
Smartwatches should also be on the list. My Apple Watch 8 is at 76% maximum capacity. Apparently it costs $99 to have Apple replace the battery, which is probably not worth it.
- haritha-j 6mo ago
  Agreed. $100 to replace a battery that must cost them maybe $10 is criminal. Source: https://counterpointresearch.com/en/insights/bom-analysis-apple-watch-series-6 https://counterpointresearch.com/en/insights/bom-analysis-ap...
matthewmorgan 6mo ago
Another anti poor person law
zuzululu 6mo ago
so more regulations to raise prices extract tax revenues by EU
elzbardico 6mo ago
Unless you have giant hands, with modern screen sizes, thinner devices are not merely a luxury. For people that have active outdoor lives, water resistance is also non-negotiable. The only thing that you should care about if you are being pratical and not just an annoying nagging geek, is that you are not forced to use an authorized reseller to buy a replacement battery, and that batteries can be bought from third party suppliers. Having to have a corner-shop cheap technician doing it once every 3 years is an acceptable trade-off in exchange to get thinner and water-resistant devices.
- kjkjadksj 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - elzbardico 6mo ago
    Looks like you want the opposite the market wants. On the bright side, at least now you know who wants those things: Almost everybody else other than you.
    - intended 6mo ago
      I also am fine with this, I don’t need thinner than things already are. More battery life and product longevity on the other hand is brilliant.
  - mghackerlady 6mo ago
    Exactly. I'd buy an iPad if I wanted thin and big
- raxxorraxor 6mo ago
  I do rowing and sailing as a sport as well as wind surfing. I want to be able to simply replace the battery of my devices as well as connect them with a cable. There are of course trade-offs here, but also very viable benefits. And no, I never lost a phone to water damage but I can assure you that my devices are far from water-proof. They have quite a bit of wear. Mostly from an active outdoor life... I don't care about some inferiority complex against geeks to accept shitty degradable devices.
phplovesong 6mo ago
EU is awesome!
yason 6mo ago
In principle, this is the kind of right sentiment but for the wrong things. I can't remember a phone that died because of the battery since the era of Ni-Cd cells in early cell phones. I don't think I've never discarded a phone with a li-ion battery because of the battery. It's always physical breakage or getting too slow to be usable, because of age. Sure, I don't spend a cycle per day. Not even every other day. That's probably rare, I get that. But much rather than because of dying batteries I'd like EU to mandate - the phone should come with full keys so that I can own the machine if I want to - or at the very least the hardware must become unlockable once the support period ends - individual components should be made available for independent repairs - repairs must not need software pairing of hardware components on unlocked devices because of right to own and right to repair which shouldn't be "rights" but nonnegotiable traits of physical properties like they used to be.
- dml2135 6mo ago
  > getting too slow to be usable Not sure what the behavior is like on Android, but iOS will throttle performance if your battery has degraded past a certain state. So I'm sure that there are many iPhone users that are replacing their phone due to what they think is poor performance related to the age of the phone, when it's really due to the age of the battery.
  - boxed 6mo ago
    I think the iPhone will warn you if your battery performance is significantly degraded?
    - inquirerGeneral 6mo ago
      [dead]
    - dml2135 6mo ago
      It's buried in the battery settings, so not something you will find unless you are looking for it, IIRC.
criddell 6mo ago
I wish the EU would tackle standardization of tool batteries. It's so stupid that every brand has their own battery system.
- illusive4080 6mo ago
  I wish they would stop trying to over regulate everything. If you want to use your tool battery in another brand just get an adapter.
  - scottbez1 6mo ago
    I wouldn’t recommend this outright without recommending some research first. Some brands put the over-discharge protection into the tools instead of the batteries, so using one of those batteries in other tools may permanently kill the battery pack.
- shmeeed 6mo ago
  The Power for All Alliance exists, just buy into their system.
cbeach 6mo ago
This should be for the market to decide, not EU bureaucrats. If I want a thicker, clunkier, less waterproof phone with a user-replaceable battery, I can already buy a Fairphone or a Samsung Galaxy XCover6 Pro, or whatever. The reason people buy iPhones and flagship Samsung phones is they want the benefits that come from a design that doesn't have to make sacrifices to accomodate a user-replaceable battery.
- euburrocrat 6mo ago
  [dead]
- ezst 6mo ago
  > This should be for the market to decide, not EU bureaucrats. Ohh sweet summer child... We are in an era of obscene consolidation, in pretty much every sector, wealth is being consolidated to degrees unseen before, oligopolies enshrine their dominance via regulatory capture and a plethora of unfair practices. There's just no competition left to suggest that "markets can decide" of anything beneficial for our skinny bottom lines..
  - cbeach 6mo ago
    * Samsung Electronics * Apple * Xiaomi * Oppo (includes OnePlus) * Vivo * Huawei * Honor * Motorola Mobility * realme * Google * Sony * Nokia * Asus * Nothing * HTC * ZTE * Fairphone * LG Electronics But yeah, "no competition left," okay..
    - ezst 6mo ago
      ok, now bring-up a photo and datasheet of the flagship model from each of those brands, and articulate how they effectively depart from one another on metrics such as ergonomics, operating system, and hardware specs such as CPU/GPU/modem. - The ergonomics story is: all those devices look and handle the same - operating system is: a duopoly between Android and iOS - chips: a triopoly between Qualcomm, Samsung and Apple those manufacturers are not innovating as much as copying each-other's formula, using a very short list of identical suppliers, with no room for error. If that's not the definition of consolidation, please show it to me.
euburrocrat 6mo ago
Regulatory Superpower I am european and proud.. but what has europe created in the last 20 years worth of mention
- zuzululu 6mo ago
  I can't really think of a single product or service that is from Europe. I can think of several things that are American and a couple from Korea and Japan. Even China. I don't think this trajectory is going to change, rather Europe seems to be doubling down on whatever hasn't been working. Sucks for young Europeans.
ThomPete 6mo ago
So now the EU want to design phones too. What could possible go wrong.
maniiijiii 6mo ago
[flagged]
waiwai933 6mo ago
I think it may help to clarify that there are two Regulations which seem to have been muddled in the comments: * Regulation 2023/1670 provides, inter alia, that smartphone manufacturers must make replacement batteries available to consumers, except where the 80%/1000 cycle criteria is met, in which case replacement batteries can be made only available to professional repairers. There is also a requirement for it being able to replace the battery but this does permit use of non-trivial tools under certain circumstances. * Regulation 2023/1542 provides that portable batteries (not limited to smartphones) must be readily end-user replaceable if they meet certain criteria unless the strict waterproofing/medical industry criteria are met.
andy_ppp 6mo ago
Controversial I know, but EU regulations are largely reasonable and mostly come down to good practices. For example I was part of a team building a crewing application for container ships and largely I agree with almost all of the conclusions we came to in making the app GDPR compliant.
shevy-java 6mo ago
Right to repair for the win.
gojomo 6mo ago
Ooh, can the batteries also trigger pop-up consent dialogs?
inagiledev 6mo ago
I tend to find these days that OS version obsolescence and charge port damage happen far sooner than the battery losing significant capacity
ars2020 6mo ago
I like the idea in principle, but I hope the implementation does not just result in thicker phones with worse water resistance and higher prices. The real win would be if batteries are replaceable without specialized tools, parts are available for several years, and manufacturers are not allowed to use software pairing to block third-party repair. Otherwise we may technically get “replaceable batteries”, but not the practical right to keep a phone alive longer.
throwaway2037 6mo ago
Can I play devil's advocate for a moment? Imagine that Apple decides to protest this new rule. They say: We will stop stelling iPhones in the EU. However, you can buy from non-EU countries (US, Canada, AUS/NZ, UK, etc.), and we will ship to you, or you can use a third party shipper. I know, I know, HN crowd loves to play legal games like this ("this one weird trick...") -- they rarely work in the Real World. Real legal question: What prevents this "legal hack"?
- 654wak654 6mo ago
  Possible EU tariffs on electronics could have some effect. IMO Nothing legal would need to be done. I think practical reasons like shipping time, shipping cost, and the annoyance of using a phone from one region with telecoms in another region would drastically reduce sales. Also you're not going to get 1st party support and that effects Apple devices more than others.
- isodev 6mo ago
  This is not possible. Any product sold in the EU, regardless of where it is shipped from, must comply with EU rules and standards (e.g., safety, environmental, digital market rules…). Customs can and do block non-compliant imports. If Apple wants to keep any of their other services and products, they will also be subject to consumer protection regulation meaning they can’t geoblock consumers and they have to ensure their unsafe products don’t end up with EU citizens.
  - LaffertyDev 6mo ago
    > Customs can and do block non-compliant imports. Software people (generally) have a limited idea of just how complex and rigid customs enforcement can be. Moving physical product between countries is actually a very hard problem.
- pona-a 6mo ago
  Loosing their #2 market instead of absorbing a modest compliance cost?
- jillesvangurp 6mo ago
kgwxd 6mo ago
A better law would be standardized batteries only. Being hard/impossible to replace is only part of the problem. When third-party "compatible" batteries are the only option available 3 years after release, this will just make it easier for people to turn their phones into bombs. It be nice if this was true of laptops as well, along with a requirement that they can run plugged in, with no battery installed, so people don't have to keep their puffy proprietary battery even though it can't hold a charge any more.
syntax-sailor 6mo ago
I'm still mad about not being able to buy a phone with an external RF connector.
mamman777 6mo ago
By then who knows maybe China's nuclear battery will be available to the public.

573 points by rdeboo 6mo ago

rdeboo 6mo ago

[flagged]

washingupliquid 6mo ago

...and Apple will be exempt due to a loophole in the law (80% after 1k cycles) making the law utterly pointless.

close04 6mo ago
This makes no sense but I still see it mindlessly repeated to exhaustion. That mention is in no way Apple specific, it’s a quality of the battery itself. Any manufacturer is in the same position, not like Apple has a monopoly on batteries that hold 80% charge after 1000 cycles.
- xp84 6mo ago
  I don’t understand how this could be measured fairly though. What kind of cycles? What temperatures was it exposed to? Charged fast or slow? This is an incomplete set of criteria, which seems designed specifically to be meaningless / gameable. To me this seems like saying you can sell a car with a sealed gas tank as long as it “gets 40 miles per gallon.” And GM gets to decide the test course for measuring MPG, which will be a 2-mile slightly downhill coast with no stopping. Surprise! All our cars get 40-60MPG! The unspoken implication here is that if your phone still retains 80% after 1000 cycles, then it’s probably so old and obsolete by then that battery replacement would be a silly waste of time, so why burden people with these “onerous rules” in that case. But in reality, nothing about that metric, even if it’s true, means that customers don’t need to replace their batteries. My iPhone 15 Pro Max is in dire need of a battery replacement, at 82% after only 714 cycles. Aside from the battery, I have literally zero motivation to replace this phone. The phone manufacturers hate the idea that the battery might get replaced, because in this day and age it’s pretty much the only reason a 2 to 3-year-old phone (especially a flagship) isn’t extremely adequate for 99% of the population.
  - micromacrofoot 6mo ago
    In the US the EPA gets to set the guidelines for mileage testing, which GM has to follow. We've already had a major case in penalties for not following the guidelines via VW and emissions. It will likely boil down to "typical use" so in the event that someone wants to bring Apple to court over it and demonstrate the issue, it could solidify what's currently a little vague. Laws aren't required to get it perfect out of the gate. > then it’s probably so old and obsolete by then that battery replacement would be a silly waste of time obsolescence is a spectrum, if a swappable battery mandate gives a small % of devices a few extra years it would be worth it... I already give old devices to family members and kids on the "free is better than nothing" spectrum and a swappable battery would have extended the life at least a few of said devices, in my personal experience
micromacrofoot 6mo ago
not really! at the very least it requires more thought around battery quality the choice for budget devices is now 1. better battery 2. removability (likely more expensive and complicates water-tightness )
- alt227 6mo ago
  The supposed aim of this is to reduce e-waste. But when 90% of smartphones sold are iPhones and Samsung Galaxies which are exempt it makes this bill completely pointless, as the ewaste it will save is a small fraction of a percentage of the total.
  - micromacrofoot 6mo ago
    > the ewaste it will save well we agree that it will work at least a little, which looks like a good start to me
    - alt227 6mo ago
      We agree that it works a little, but not that it is a good start. If this bill had just targetted all battery devices it would have made an incredible change. But as usual it was lobbied into near non existence. Why do we have to be content with tiny chips away at a serious issue instead of insisting it is dealt with properly?
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
vlovich123 6mo ago
Yup, that’s a pretty wild loophole. I think they’re targeting the lower end of the market probably to reduce most of the ewaste.
mx7zysuj4xew 6mo ago
I keep hearing this over and over, but it's neglected to add that it sets a minimum durability requirement which applies only for a very small niche of ruggedized waterproof devices Unless your device complies to MIL-STD-810G CN1 and has the certification to back it up your product will be required to add user replaceable batteries
- 0xffff2 6mo ago
  >Unless your device complies to MIL-STD-810G CN1 and has the certification to back it up your product will be required to add user replaceable batteries Can you provide your source for this? If nothing else, it's very surprising to me that an EU regulation uses a US standard as the baseline! Edit: Having done a bit of reading on the standard, it also seems like the regulation needs quite a bit of detail if it really does rely on the MIL-STD, since the standard only defines test procedures, not pass/fail criteria?
criddell 6mo ago
Are you sure the loophole exists? AFAIK, this is the regulation: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1542/oj/eng https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1542/oj/eng I don't see that exemption listed. The other ones are, but not that one.
- 0xffff2 6mo ago
  Take this with a mountain of salt since I've not at all an expert, but with a little help from AI, it seems like the exemption lives in 2023/1670 [0]. The LLM claims that this and the regulation you link are interconnected, with the recital of 2023/1542 explicitly linking them. 0: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32023R1670&qid=1777916834413 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A...
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]

gonzalohm 6mo ago

The link is not working for me, but I hope they have defined what "removable" means (removable without special tools) If not, a lot of companies are going to argue that they already make removable batteries

aniviacat 6mo ago
> If a special tool is required for replacement, the manufacturer must provide it free of charge.
- ortusdux 6mo ago
  IIRC, screwdrivers and prying tools are not considered special. Removal cannot require solvents or heat, but I believe those pull tab glue pads are allowed.
  - Pxtl 6mo ago
    I wish those prying tools were considered "special". I have a very low success rate at opening up any device that's held together with "clips" without snapping any plastic. It inevitably means "force it just hard-enough to break stuff if you don't do it absolutely perfectly".
- mkozlows 6mo ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-service-iphone-repair-kit-hands-on https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/21/23079058/apple-self-servi... 79-pound hyper-elaborate repair kit. Expensive for them to send out, but since only two people will ever want them to, probably amortizes well.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
alt227 6mo ago
Also, removeable by who? Its all very well saying its removeable, but thats useless if only possible by a skilled techinician with tools. I dont see the term 'user-removable' anywhere.

close04 6mo ago

I think this was discussed recently on HN. It’s not a bad idea. There’s nothing about this that “ruins” anything else. This is not specific for phones even if everyone focuses on them. The usual arguments are waterproofing and thinness but we can still have them with removable batteries.

wmf 6mo ago

There's an exception for batteries that "retain at least 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles." Coincidentally, iPhones and probably other flagships already qualify for this exception.

spockz 6mo ago
That had me thinking as well. What if the manufacturer says that to get to that number you are only allowed to charge it to 80% ever? My iPhone pro battery is at 92% at 417 cycles over 20 months.
- sokoloff 6mo ago
  Do what EVs do: make 100% on the display not 100.0% electro-chemically and 0% not be 0.0% chemically. This is a serious suggestion, as I think it’s actually net beneficial for the consumer.
  - creaturemachine 6mo ago
    There's no coming back from 0% chemically. Running li-ions that low results in physical damage.
  - Semaphor 6mo ago
    This is already the case and has been so for a long time. But it's a trade off between longevity and capacity
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
  - LeifCarrotson 6mo ago
    The problem is that consumers want to buy a phone with 24 hours of runtime and an EV with 200 miles of range, and they want the phone to be thin and light and the car to be fast and light, and manufacturers want to achieve those capacities with as little electrochemistry as possible. The number of charge cycles at full capacity will be a big deal a year or two in, but on the sales floor it's a secondary concern for typical buyers and sellers. Playing fast and loose with the numbers, I'm sure that if 100% on the display was 80% in the battery and 0% was 20%, you'd have an amazing number of charge cycles. You could program that 40% of unused capacity to be reduced as the battery ages very slowly, and by the time the used capacity is only at 80% of its original revealed capacity you're at many thousands of cycles. But you'd have a phone or car that weighed 40% more and cost 40% more than one that had no buffer and ran at the bleeding edge on day 1. Absent breakthroughs in battery chemistry, this basically regulates the amount of buffer capacity that manufacturers are required to include in their ~~lies~~ marketing materials.

_diyar 6mo ago

Rule does not apply to gadgets that already retain 80% charge capacity at 1k charge cycles. What is the share of the smartphone market that this applies to?

hedora 6mo ago
0%. Wait, that’s not true: In true regulatory capture fashion, I’ll bet the exemption requires some sort of testing/certification that makes it significantly more expensive for smaller firms to bring devices to market.
- seszett 6mo ago
  > I’ll bet the exemption requires some sort of testing/certification that makes it significantly more expensive for smaller firms to bring devices to market. Maybe that would be the case in the US but since that is the EU it will likely be some kind of self-certification where the manufacturer swears that they're not lying, and if enough people complain then maybe one of the national regulators will look into it and ask the manufacturer to do better.
- dgellow 6mo ago
  Might be a good idea to verify before sharing misinformation
- reaperducer 6mo ago
  Recently my 2021 macBook gave me an alert that its battery was not charging past 80%. I took it to the Apple Store and because it had only been through 971 charge cycles, the battery was replaced for free.
  - rootusrootus 6mo ago
    I'm still waiting for 2023 MBP to hit that point. It's at 82% right now, with 67 cycles. It's been stuck at 82% for a few months now, though, stubbornly staying in the "normal" range.
6mo ago

spockz 6mo ago

My initial reaction as an EU citizen is “oh hell no” because it gave me flashbacks to removable covers with clips that broke my nails. But after reading the article where it mentions that the battery is also considered removable if standard tools should be used, I’m quite okay with it. I welcome getting more rugged and durable devices.

xp84 6mo ago
Serious question: how are you worse off with a cover that breaks your nails vs. the status quo: a cover that’s glued on and a battery that’s glued in? If they did bring that back, couldn’t you just not open the cover and be just as happy?
- spockz 6mo ago
  The covers were typically flimsy and used flimsy hooks in addition to the flimsy push pin. Actually most of my annoyance stems from the hooks breaking easily and the covers not closing flush. I would not want to return to that time where dropping a phone leads to covers flying around. It is my assumption that any cover that still requires screws that it will be both more sturdy and easier to close flush. The current status quo of having sleek devices while having batteries relatively easily replaced yourself or even quite cheaply in every phone shop. I’m not so bothered by the status quo.
- elzbardico 6mo ago
  IGNORE: duplicated
  - kjkjadksj 6mo ago
    You already wrote this comment before
    - elzbardico 6mo ago
      fuck, can't delete.
6mo ago

Fraterkes 6mo ago

Not perfect, but the “80% capacity after 1000 cycles” part at least creates some decent incentives imo.

daoboy 6mo ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195

IndrekR 6mo ago

Was discussed recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195

thewavelength 6mo ago

I just called the shop to replace the perfectly fine e-Call battery in my soon four year old Hyundai car. 250€ to change a battery that has a ten year lifespan. I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer (not the one by law). Why is this stuff not considered as well? Also curious whether the "specialized devices" exemptions are AND requirements. Even if those are AND, wouldn’t smartphone manufacturers try to satisfy all three of them?

jorams 6mo ago
> I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer. Why is this stuff not considered as well? They're the ones paying for repairs, so it doesn't seem that unreasonable? That said: If you can prove the car is being maintained according to the manufacturer's specifications they can't require you to go to a brand dealership. That's just not necessarily easy to prove.
- kjkjadksj 6mo ago
  Recalls don’t require you to have had maintained the car at the dealership previousy
  - jorams 6mo ago
    A recall means the manufacturer shipped a faulty product. If you can prove you received a faulty product such requirements also don't apply.
- thewavelength 6mo ago
  TIL. Thanks for letting me know.
tgsovlerkhgsel 6mo ago
Why are you replacing it if it is perfectly fine?

Pxtl 6mo ago

The introduction of glue into the assembly of consumer electronics is a crime against humanity and the Earth. If Timex could make iron-man watches 100-meter waterproof with Phillips-head jeweler's screws back in the '80s, there's no good reason smartphones and laptops can't. And there's a whole host of bad reasons to eschew screws.

echoangle 6mo ago
Of course you can build a waterproof smartphone with screws (except the screen has to be bonded to the glass for capacitive touch to work and the glass to the frame so there’s still some glueing involved), but it would probably have 1cm bezels around the screen.
- extraduder_ire 6mo ago
  > the screen has to be bonded to the glass for capacitive touch to work and the glass to the frame so there’s still some glueing involved Why? That might make alignment easier, but I don't think the screen plays any role in the touchscreen digitiser working. I've even seen videos of them still working when separated from the display.

Aurornis 6mo ago

As others have mentioned this is for phones with batteries that can’t survive a reasonable number of cycles. That’s a reasonable exemption, in my opinion. I don’t want to pay the extra penalties of reduced structural rigidity and water tightness for a battery that I don’t need to replace for 3-4 years anyway. I do wish one manufacturer would make a flagship phone with replaceable battery so all of the uncompromising replaceable battery fans could have a phone that fits their niche demands rather than trying to force everyone else to pay the extra costs (price, size, water intrusion, structural rigidity) that would come with laws forcing all phones to have removable batteries.

mrandish 6mo ago
This regulation isn't primarily for fans of replaceable batteries, it's driven by general concerns about e-waste. It's unclear how much it might actually reduce e-waste in practice but it will certainly increase compliance costs.
- detourdog 6mo ago
  At least it's a performance standard. If the Government is going to regulate consumer products I would rather it be performance standards than implementation details. If a device doesn't meet performance standards it can trigger warranty requirements.
mossTechnician 6mo ago
Many flagship phones promise 7 years of security updates now. 3-4 years means the battery will only last for half that time, and heavy users (1 cycle per day) will hit that quota in under 2.75 years.
- IanCal 6mo ago
  Importantly “last” means that it will have at least 80% battery capacity left.
  - 6mo ago

sokoloff 6mo ago

What is a “special tool”? A Philips screwdriver is pretty clearly not, but is a T-5 Torx? A security T-5? A Tri-wing? A Pentalobe?

layer8 6mo ago
Any tool you can’t get at a random local hardware store.
sschueller 6mo ago
Why does the Pentalobe exist in the first place?
- spiritplumber 6mo ago
  in one product design i did, unironically because the customer thought that six-star screws were antisemitic
  - anonymars 6mo ago
    Antisemitic geometry. Now I've seen everything Imagine the lasting havoc the Nazis could have wrought if they adopted a + instead of a swastika
espadrine 6mo ago
> A portable battery should be considered to be removable by the end-user when it can be removed with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless they are provided free of charge […] to disassemble it. > Commercially available tools are considered to be tools available on the market to all end-users without the need for them to provide evidence of any proprietary rights and that can be used with no restriction, except health and safety-related restrictions. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1542/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1542/oj
daemonologist 6mo ago
"Special tool" is not used in the actual regulation; the requirement is that replacement must be possible with basic tools, defined: > (50) 'basic tools' means a screwdriver for slotted heads, a screwdriver for cross recess screws, a screwdriver for hexalobular recess heads [Torx], a hexagon socket key, a combination wrench, combination pliers, combination pliers for wire stripping and terminal crimping, half round nose pliers, diagonal cutters, multigrip pliers, locking pliers, a prying lever, tweezers, magnifying glass, a spudger and a pick; (Excepted devices can require "commercially available tools" which is defined exactly as you'd expect.) https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1670/oj https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1670/oj

matchbok3 6mo ago

While sounding nice in theory, these sorts of regulations will certainly curtail innovation while providing very, very little value elsewhere. If people wanted removable batteries in their phones, they would buy them a lot. They don't.

mossTechnician 6mo ago
Which flagship phones with replaceable batteries can customers buy? Samsung was the last major brand in the US to have one, and they made the choice to remove it.
- matchbok3 6mo ago
  Not sure. But there are plenty of flip phones with removable batteries.
  - anonymars 6mo ago
    So you're suggesting we all just need to buy exclusively flip phones for a few years to send the market a signal that it wants replaceable batteries. Then the free market will do its thing and keep the engine of innovation running Speaking of which, does anyone want to do a list of "features added to smartphones over the last 10 years" vs "features removed from smartphones over the last 10 years" so we can see just what innovations are at risk?
    - matchbok3 6mo ago
      I'm not suggesting anything, I'm simply offering the reality of the smartphone market. What you are suggesting is a contrived, exaggerated take of how markets function. People generally like small, thin phones, as evidenced by the billions sold. It really isn't much more complicated than that.
      - deleted 6mo ago
        [deleted]

somethingsome 6mo ago

It would be nice to have mandatory SD cards..

WesolyKubeczek 6mo ago
SD cards and phone jacks!

cmiles8 6mo ago

Headline is misleading as the loopholes written into the regulation will likely end up exempting many/most phones

protimewaster 6mo ago
Didn't they remove many of the exemptions in the final, adopted bill?
- cmiles8 6mo ago
  Not really… the rules were heavily influenced by big tech in a way that basically exempts many devices. For example iPhone 15 onwards already meets the defined standard and thus doesn’t need a user replaceable battery. So the headline is misleading. Removable batteries aren’t mandatory. They’re only mandatory if the battery fails to meet certain performance standards.
  - protimewaster 6mo ago
    Based on other comments, there are apparently two separate sets of rules. One of them has exceptions and supplies specifically to phones and tablets, and one of them doesn't have any exceptions and applies more generally.

vardump 6mo ago

80% after 1000 cycles. I hope that doesn’t mean faking battery health instead.

estimator7292 6mo ago
When has a legally mandated metric ever been gamed into a loophole? /s
palata 6mo ago
Would be easy to say "if the software says "< 80%" after 1000 cycles, the warranty applies and the manufacturer has to replace it for free. I guess the law won't say that though.

subhobroto 6mo ago

I'm not a fan of regulation in general but over the last decade it has been extremely frustrating with the removal of replaceable SD cards and batteries from Androids. I never put my phones in my back pocket nor do I wear butt hugging leggings, so having a thick phone stick out my ass and make it look bad isn't on my list of worries. I end up purchasing thick waterproof cases for these slim phones anyways. What's most confusing is the premium phones lack replaceable SD cards and batteries - it's like they are trying to take the worst ideas from the Apple ecosystem and simply don't understand why some people use Androids. Surprisingly, it's the cheaper models that carry replaceable SD cards and batteries - I would have imagined the opposite! I often go on trips and hikes with poor cellular coverage and having some SD cards with useful information or being able to swap them out as the camera gets full is really helpful. Attaching drives over the USB port isn't really practical. When I do have cellular coverage, I might have to rapidly download a LOT of data, which overheats the phone and discharges the battery. With a replaceable battery, this isn't even an issue. The benefits of replaceable batteries cannot be overstated when you're not on the grid or take great care of the phone where they last more than a few years. I can have a few batteries charged, during the day using solar that I can then just swap them in as evening sets in, instead of having to plug the phone into a powerbank and pray it doesn't shut off as I keep using it.

catdog 6mo ago
I think in general not being able to replace the battery toolless is quite an acceptable compromise nowadays. The needed mechanism and the protective shell the replaceable battery needs definitely takes up space which can be used for more capacity instead. You have (sometimes quite insane) fast charging and also powerbanks which support it. Also quality batteries can be quite durable. The real problem I think is the hostility towards repair, glue everywhere, no spare parts, etc.
- subhobroto 6mo ago
  Good points, but from a chemistry perspective, fast charging is detrimental to the battery. It would be more efficient to have two or three batteries standard charged to 70% that you can swap in as you go than have one that you need to repeatedly fast charge. I argue that easier they make for user to swap batteries themselves, higher the demand for the batteries will be, thus lower their price. > The needed mechanism and the protective shell the replaceable battery needs definitely takes up space This is true > The real problem I think is the hostility towards repair, glue everywhere, no spare parts, etc. I think when a manufacturer isn't designing to allow a regular customer (the owner) to be able to replace the battery themselves, using glue and restricting spare parts is a natural consequence of financial realities: Most people are not going to take a $500 phone that has been used a few years to a shop that will need to charge $100+ in just labor to swap out a battery. So there's no incentive to have a bunch of spare batteries. I'm a huge fan of user replaceable batteries because in addition of obvious benefits, you can also just remove the battery and power it simply off USB-C when running something heavy on the phone for extended periods of time. A battery used in that scenario wouldn't just overheat itself but stop the phone from cooling off too.

dmos62 6mo ago

I've a plan: 2027 I'm buying a Motorola with first-party support for GrapheneOS and a replaceable battery. Things are looking up!

dddw 6mo ago
Yes! Hope they deliver some decent enough device
cyklosarin 6mo ago
There is almost zero chance that the Motorola phones will come with a replaceable battery and likely fall under the exemption anyways. The GOS supported phones will all be flagship level devices (i.e. Signature/RAZR).

k12sosse 6mo ago

Why not anything that has a battery? Why just cellphones?

M2Ys4U 6mo ago
The regulation does cover everything that uses batteries.

infecto 6mo ago

This is a waste of money. All flagship phones have hit the requirements so do not need to make them removable. It might impact some of the budget garbage but not yet clear. All this will do is increase compliance costs.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
> All flagship phones have hit the requirements Lots of non-flagship phones making e-waste. This is a sensibly-tailored regulation, targeting the problem instead of specifying a solution because some bureaucrat likes replaceable batteries.
- infecto 6mo ago
  Nobody has quantified what lots means. Which is my issue. The article just says many. Lots and many do not make great legislation.
danaw 6mo ago
based on many comments in this thread your statement is not accurate. for example my iphone 15 pro is at 83% with 654 cycles. clearly it will drop below 80% in less than 1000 cycles
- drstewart 6mo ago
  The bar clearly won't be "any random person's phone meeting this criteria", so what your specific phone does doesn't really matter.
  - danaw 6mo ago
    many others in the comments have this same issue (and the internet at large). my point is just that it's not obvious that apple has met this claim with real world devices. it will be seen how the actual requirements will be validated, likely in a way that favors the "best case" scenario for apple.

everdrive 6mo ago

The number of people worried about a slightly thicker phone are absolutely baffling to me. I honestly think there is no hope for us broadly. Normally I'd say that people cannot deal with minor inconveniences -- but this does not even register as an inconvenience. From my view, this is a _perceived_ downgrade in luxury status. Not even a real downgrade in luxury status -- and not a downgrade in convenience whatsoever.

dec0dedab0de 6mo ago
I want my phone 5 times thicker, just put as many batteries as you can fit in there.
JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
> this does not even register as an inconvenience You don’t have any idiosyncratic product preferences?
- alt227 6mo ago
  Not ones where design decisions reduce features for no other reason.
  - izacus 6mo ago
    Stop lying.
SauntSolaire 6mo ago
I would also consider swapping a battery once every four years a minor inconvenience.
retired 6mo ago
A slightly thicker back so that in four years time it will take me 5 minutes versus 60 minutes to change the battery? Yes, that sounds like something I am not interested in.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]

romperstomper 6mo ago

And make all these batteries compatible among all smartphone brands

SauntSolaire 6mo ago
The size and shape of the battery depends on the size and shape of the phone, as well as the internal structure (which is highly variable). At that point you might as well just legislate that everyone build iPhone 17's.

junglistguy 6mo ago

[dead]

clever-leap 6mo ago

Does this need a law? Most phones have replaceable battery.

al_borland 6mo ago
> Easy replacement: Batteries must be replaceable using standard tools (e.g., screwdrivers). > No barriers: The use of adhesives that can only be removed with heat or solvents is prohibited. > Tools: If a special tool is required for replacement, the manufacturer must provide it free of charge. > Spare parts guarantee: Replacement batteries must be available to end users at a reasonable price for at least 5 years. When it comes to most phones I've seen... Easy replacement: Currently, special tools are needed to heat the glue holding on the screen, picks to pry it up, and then there are various ways to release the glue holding in the battery. No barriers: Currently, there are adhesives used for both the screen and battery. Depending on the phone this may require a solvent, heat, or electrical release... maybe a combination of these. Tools: Currently, tools are not provided with the phone and kits need to be purchased in addition to the battery to complete the repair. Spare parts guarantee: I think this is very hit and miss based on the manufacturer, but I suspect most replacement batteries people are buying are not coming from the OEM.

kandros 6mo ago

Absolutely trash aftermarket batteries that are e-waste in 6 months here we come!

poisonborz 6mo ago

Classic EU move, the last-minute 1000-cycle exemption undercuts the entire regulation.

elzbardico 6mo ago
Looks like saner minds prevailed. Almost nobody needs or wants that. Having to pay a street corner repair shop to replace a battery only after 3 or 4 years of usage is completely worth a price to pay for having thinner batteries.
- poisonborz 6mo ago
  HN / pro user forums alone are a massive indicator of the need for this. Same argument could be made in the form of almost nobody needs or wants "thinner batteries". Not many are going for the street corner for this, and it is insane that people are throwing away 2-3-4 year old perfectly capable high end devices. Not just because of battery but lack of support and closed ecosystem. The industry is incentivised to go towards unrepairable throwaway products you are forced to renew. The madness needs to stop.
protimewaster 6mo ago
The previous discussion of the bill on HN noted that the newest version of the bill is the one without the exemption. Is that incorrect?
levocardia 6mo ago
Would have been even more classic EU to not add the exception and have all Europeans stuck with a slower, bulkier, and more expensive "EU edition" of a phone.

tamimio 6mo ago

I want a phone with li-ion 18650! Because having a replaceable batteries won’t prevent the manufacturer from increasing those batteries prices so it’s equal to non replaceable ones. It would be great to have 18650 as a standard in all electronics, so you just carry dozens of them when you go out and you are set up for the weekend, no recharging, maybe even add hot swap too.

HunOL 6mo ago

All new phones sold in the EU already include information on declared battery life and the number of charge cycles before reaching 80% battery health. The vast majority of phones will meet this requirement.

proee 6mo ago

Smartwatches should also be on the list. My Apple Watch 8 is at 76% maximum capacity. Apparently it costs $99 to have Apple replace the battery, which is probably not worth it.

haritha-j 6mo ago
Agreed. $100 to replace a battery that must cost them maybe $10 is criminal. Source: https://counterpointresearch.com/en/insights/bom-analysis-apple-watch-series-6 https://counterpointresearch.com/en/insights/bom-analysis-ap...

matthewmorgan 6mo ago

Another anti poor person law

zuzululu 6mo ago

so more regulations to raise prices extract tax revenues by EU

elzbardico 6mo ago

Unless you have giant hands, with modern screen sizes, thinner devices are not merely a luxury. For people that have active outdoor lives, water resistance is also non-negotiable. The only thing that you should care about if you are being pratical and not just an annoying nagging geek, is that you are not forced to use an authorized reseller to buy a replacement battery, and that batteries can be bought from third party suppliers. Having to have a corner-shop cheap technician doing it once every 3 years is an acceptable trade-off in exchange to get thinner and water-resistant devices.

kjkjadksj 6mo ago
[flagged]
- elzbardico 6mo ago
  Looks like you want the opposite the market wants. On the bright side, at least now you know who wants those things: Almost everybody else other than you.
  - intended 6mo ago
    I also am fine with this, I don’t need thinner than things already are. More battery life and product longevity on the other hand is brilliant.
- mghackerlady 6mo ago
  Exactly. I'd buy an iPad if I wanted thin and big
raxxorraxor 6mo ago
I do rowing and sailing as a sport as well as wind surfing. I want to be able to simply replace the battery of my devices as well as connect them with a cable. There are of course trade-offs here, but also very viable benefits. And no, I never lost a phone to water damage but I can assure you that my devices are far from water-proof. They have quite a bit of wear. Mostly from an active outdoor life... I don't care about some inferiority complex against geeks to accept shitty degradable devices.

phplovesong 6mo ago

EU is awesome!

yason 6mo ago

In principle, this is the kind of right sentiment but for the wrong things. I can't remember a phone that died because of the battery since the era of Ni-Cd cells in early cell phones. I don't think I've never discarded a phone with a li-ion battery because of the battery. It's always physical breakage or getting too slow to be usable, because of age. Sure, I don't spend a cycle per day. Not even every other day. That's probably rare, I get that. But much rather than because of dying batteries I'd like EU to mandate - the phone should come with full keys so that I can own the machine if I want to - or at the very least the hardware must become unlockable once the support period ends - individual components should be made available for independent repairs - repairs must not need software pairing of hardware components on unlocked devices because of right to own and right to repair which shouldn't be "rights" but nonnegotiable traits of physical properties like they used to be.

dml2135 6mo ago
> getting too slow to be usable Not sure what the behavior is like on Android, but iOS will throttle performance if your battery has degraded past a certain state. So I'm sure that there are many iPhone users that are replacing their phone due to what they think is poor performance related to the age of the phone, when it's really due to the age of the battery.
- boxed 6mo ago
  I think the iPhone will warn you if your battery performance is significantly degraded?
  - inquirerGeneral 6mo ago
    [dead]
  - dml2135 6mo ago
    It's buried in the battery settings, so not something you will find unless you are looking for it, IIRC.

criddell 6mo ago

I wish the EU would tackle standardization of tool batteries. It's so stupid that every brand has their own battery system.

illusive4080 6mo ago
I wish they would stop trying to over regulate everything. If you want to use your tool battery in another brand just get an adapter.
- scottbez1 6mo ago
  I wouldn’t recommend this outright without recommending some research first. Some brands put the over-discharge protection into the tools instead of the batteries, so using one of those batteries in other tools may permanently kill the battery pack.
shmeeed 6mo ago
The Power for All Alliance exists, just buy into their system.

cbeach 6mo ago

This should be for the market to decide, not EU bureaucrats. If I want a thicker, clunkier, less waterproof phone with a user-replaceable battery, I can already buy a Fairphone or a Samsung Galaxy XCover6 Pro, or whatever. The reason people buy iPhones and flagship Samsung phones is they want the benefits that come from a design that doesn't have to make sacrifices to accomodate a user-replaceable battery.

euburrocrat 6mo ago
[dead]
ezst 6mo ago
> This should be for the market to decide, not EU bureaucrats. Ohh sweet summer child... We are in an era of obscene consolidation, in pretty much every sector, wealth is being consolidated to degrees unseen before, oligopolies enshrine their dominance via regulatory capture and a plethora of unfair practices. There's just no competition left to suggest that "markets can decide" of anything beneficial for our skinny bottom lines..
- cbeach 6mo ago
  * Samsung Electronics * Apple * Xiaomi * Oppo (includes OnePlus) * Vivo * Huawei * Honor * Motorola Mobility * realme * Google * Sony * Nokia * Asus * Nothing * HTC * ZTE * Fairphone * LG Electronics But yeah, "no competition left," okay..
  - ezst 6mo ago
    ok, now bring-up a photo and datasheet of the flagship model from each of those brands, and articulate how they effectively depart from one another on metrics such as ergonomics, operating system, and hardware specs such as CPU/GPU/modem. - The ergonomics story is: all those devices look and handle the same - operating system is: a duopoly between Android and iOS - chips: a triopoly between Qualcomm, Samsung and Apple those manufacturers are not innovating as much as copying each-other's formula, using a very short list of identical suppliers, with no room for error. If that's not the definition of consolidation, please show it to me.

euburrocrat 6mo ago

Regulatory Superpower I am european and proud.. but what has europe created in the last 20 years worth of mention

zuzululu 6mo ago
I can't really think of a single product or service that is from Europe. I can think of several things that are American and a couple from Korea and Japan. Even China. I don't think this trajectory is going to change, rather Europe seems to be doubling down on whatever hasn't been working. Sucks for young Europeans.

ThomPete 6mo ago

So now the EU want to design phones too. What could possible go wrong.

maniiijiii 6mo ago

[flagged]

waiwai933 6mo ago

I think it may help to clarify that there are two Regulations which seem to have been muddled in the comments: * Regulation 2023/1670 provides, inter alia, that smartphone manufacturers must make replacement batteries available to consumers, except where the 80%/1000 cycle criteria is met, in which case replacement batteries can be made only available to professional repairers. There is also a requirement for it being able to replace the battery but this does permit use of non-trivial tools under certain circumstances. * Regulation 2023/1542 provides that portable batteries (not limited to smartphones) must be readily end-user replaceable if they meet certain criteria unless the strict waterproofing/medical industry criteria are met.

andy_ppp 6mo ago

Controversial I know, but EU regulations are largely reasonable and mostly come down to good practices. For example I was part of a team building a crewing application for container ships and largely I agree with almost all of the conclusions we came to in making the app GDPR compliant.

shevy-java 6mo ago

Right to repair for the win.

gojomo 6mo ago

Ooh, can the batteries also trigger pop-up consent dialogs?

inagiledev 6mo ago

I tend to find these days that OS version obsolescence and charge port damage happen far sooner than the battery losing significant capacity

ars2020 6mo ago

I like the idea in principle, but I hope the implementation does not just result in thicker phones with worse water resistance and higher prices. The real win would be if batteries are replaceable without specialized tools, parts are available for several years, and manufacturers are not allowed to use software pairing to block third-party repair. Otherwise we may technically get “replaceable batteries”, but not the practical right to keep a phone alive longer.

throwaway2037 6mo ago

Can I play devil's advocate for a moment? Imagine that Apple decides to protest this new rule. They say: We will stop stelling iPhones in the EU. However, you can buy from non-EU countries (US, Canada, AUS/NZ, UK, etc.), and we will ship to you, or you can use a third party shipper. I know, I know, HN crowd loves to play legal games like this ("this one weird trick...") -- they rarely work in the Real World. Real legal question: What prevents this "legal hack"?

654wak654 6mo ago
Possible EU tariffs on electronics could have some effect. IMO Nothing legal would need to be done. I think practical reasons like shipping time, shipping cost, and the annoyance of using a phone from one region with telecoms in another region would drastically reduce sales. Also you're not going to get 1st party support and that effects Apple devices more than others.
isodev 6mo ago
This is not possible. Any product sold in the EU, regardless of where it is shipped from, must comply with EU rules and standards (e.g., safety, environmental, digital market rules…). Customs can and do block non-compliant imports. If Apple wants to keep any of their other services and products, they will also be subject to consumer protection regulation meaning they can’t geoblock consumers and they have to ensure their unsafe products don’t end up with EU citizens.
- LaffertyDev 6mo ago
  > Customs can and do block non-compliant imports. Software people (generally) have a limited idea of just how complex and rigid customs enforcement can be. Moving physical product between countries is actually a very hard problem.
pona-a 6mo ago
Loosing their #2 market instead of absorbing a modest compliance cost?
jillesvangurp 6mo ago

kgwxd 6mo ago

A better law would be standardized batteries only. Being hard/impossible to replace is only part of the problem. When third-party "compatible" batteries are the only option available 3 years after release, this will just make it easier for people to turn their phones into bombs. It be nice if this was true of laptops as well, along with a requirement that they can run plugged in, with no battery installed, so people don't have to keep their puffy proprietary battery even though it can't hold a charge any more.

syntax-sailor 6mo ago

I'm still mad about not being able to buy a phone with an external RF connector.

mamman777 6mo ago

By then who knows maybe China's nuclear battery will be available to the public.