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From the Waymo blog... > the pedestrian suddenly entered the roadway from behind a tall SUV, moving directly into our vehicle's path. Our technology immediatel
by BugsJustFindMe 9mo ago
From the Waymo blog...
> the pedestrian suddenly entered the roadway from behind a tall SUV, moving directly into our vehicle's path. Our technology immediately detected the individual as soon as they began to emerge from behind the stopped vehicle. The Waymo Driver braked hard, reducing speed from approximately 17 mph to under 6 mph before contact was made.
> Following contact, the pedestrian stood up immediately, walked to the sidewalk, and we called 911. The vehicle remained stopped, moved to the side of the road, and stayed there until law enforcement cleared the vehicle to leave the scene.
> Following the event, we voluntarily contacted the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) that same day.
I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation.
- behringer 9mo agoWell done waymo!
- anovikov 9mo agoMost humans in that situation won't have reaction speed to do shit about it and it could result in a severe injury or death.
- jayd16 9mo agoHumans are not going to win on reaction time but prevention is arguably much more important.
- lokar 9mo agoHow would standard automatic breaking (standard in some brands) have performed here?
- gensym 9mo agoYeah. I'm a stickler for accountability falling on drivers, but this really can be an impossible scenario to avoid. I've hit someone on my bike in the exact same circumstance - I was in the bike lane between the parked cars and moving traffic, and someone stepped out between parked vehicles without looking. I had nowhere to swerve, so squeezed my brakes, but could not come to a complete stop. Fortunately, I was going slow enough that no one was injured or even knocked over, but I'm convinced that was the best I could have done in that scenario. The road design there was the real problem, combined with the size and shape of modern vehicles that impede visibility.
- pastage 9mo agoBuilding on my own experience I think you have to own that if you crash with someone you made a mistake. I do agree that car and road design for bicycles(?) makes it almost impossible to move around if you do not risk things like that.
- jobs_throwaway 9mo agoYup. And to add > Waymo said in its blog post that its “peer-reviewed model” shows a “fully attentive human driver in this same situation would have made contact with the pedestrian at approximately 14 mph.” It's likely that a fully-attentive human driver would have done worse. With a distracted driver (a huge portion of human drivers) it could've been catastrophic.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- chaboud 9mo agoPossibly, but Waymos have recently been much more aggressive about blowing through situations where human drivers can (and generally do) slow down. As a motorcyclist, I've had some close calls with Waymos driving on the wrong side of the road recently, and I had a Waymo cut in front of my car at a one-way stop (t intersection) recently when it had been tangled up with a Rivian trying to turn into the narrow street it was coming out of. I had to ABS brake to avoid an accident. Most human drivers (not all) know to nose out carefully rather than to gun it in that situation. So, while I'm very supportive of where Waymo is trying to go for transport, we should be constructively critical and not just assume that humans would have been in the same situation if driving defensively.
- veltas 9mo agoAbsolutely, I can tell you right now that many human drivers are probably safer than the Waymo, because they would have slowed down even more and/or stayed further from the parked cars outside a school; they might have even seen the kid earlier in e.g. a reflection than the Waymo could see.
- onetokeoverthe 9mo ago[dead]
- mlyle 9mo agoIt seems it was driving pretty slow (17MPH) and they do tend to put in a pretty big gap to the right side when they can. There are kinds of human sensing that are better when humans are maximally attentive (seeing through windows/reflections). But there's also the seeing-in-all-directions, radar, superhuman reaction time, etc, on the side of the Waymo.
- random_duck 9mo agoThey they are being very transparent about it.
- direwolf20 9mo agoAs every company should, when they have a success. Are they also as transparent about their failures?
- voidUpdate 9mo agoIs this a success? There was still an incident. I'd argue this was them being transparent about a failure
- direwolf20 9mo agoThey handled an unpredictable emergency situation better than any human driver.
- mitthrowaway2 9mo agoWas it unpredictable? They drove past a blind corner (parked SUV) in a school zone. I'm constantly slowing down in these situations as I expect someone might run out at any second. Waymo seemed to default to the view that if it can't see anyone then nobody is there.
- TeMPOraL 9mo agoBeing transparent about such incidents is also what stops them from potentially becoming a business/industry-killing failures. They're doing the right thing here, but they also surely realize how much worse it would be if they tried to deny or downplay it.
- xnx 9mo ago> they also surely realize how much worse it would be if they tried to deny or downplay it. Indeed. Waymo is a much more thoughtful and responsible company than Cruise, Uber, or Tesla. "Cruise admits to criminal cover-up of pedestrian dragging in SF, will pay $500K penalty" https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/cruise-fine-criminal-cover-up-19920343.php https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/cruise-fine-criminal-cov...
- veltas 9mo agoEDIT: replies say I'm misremembering, disregard.
- chaboud 9mo agoThat was Cruise, and that was fixed by Cruise ceasing operations.
- seanmcdirmid 9mo agoI don’t think that was Waymo right? Cruise is already wound down as far as I know.
- dyauspitr 9mo agoIt’s great handling of the situation. They should release a video as well.
- dust42 9mo agoIndeed. Rather than having the company telling me that they did great I'd rather make up my own mind and watch the video.
- rdudek 9mo agoI honestly think that Waymo's reaction was spot on. I drop off and pick up my kid from school every day. The parking lots can be a bit of a messy wild west. My biggest concern is the size of cars especially those huge SUV or pickup trucks that have big covers on the back. You can't see anything incoming unless you stick your head out.
- scarmig 9mo agoIt depends on the situation, and we need more data/video. But if there are a bunch of children milling about an elementary school in a chaotic situation with lots of double parking, 17 mph is too fast, and the Waymo should have been driving more conservatively.
- drcongo 9mo agoWhoa! You're allowed to double park outside a school over there?!
- recursive 9mo agoWait, is double parking allowed anywhere?
- something765478 9mo agoPretty common at airports; of course, the `parking` only lasts a few minutes at most.
- acdha 9mo agoIt’s common but almost always illegal based on the posted signage.
- JBlue42 9mo agoYes, please visit LA. Edit: Not 'allowed' but people do it constantly. Regular drivers, delivery drivers, city workers, construction trucks, etc. There may be laws but very little enforcement.
- dboreham 9mo agoPeople loitering in their cars waiting for a space to pick up their kid. So not actually parked.
- trollbridge 9mo agoMore like standing, and quite common in a school zone. I would not race at 17 MPH through such an area. Of course, Waymo will find a way to describe themselves as the heroes of this situation.
- calchris42 9mo agoAV’s with enough sensing are generally quite good at stopping quickly. It is usually the behavior prior to the critical encounter that has room for improvement. The question will be whether 17 mph was a reasonably cautious speed for this specific scenario. Many school zones have 15 mph limits and when there are kids about people may go even slower. At the same time, the general rule in CA for school zone is 25 mph. Clearly the car had some level of caution which is good.
- dcanelhas 9mo agoIt does sound like a good outcome for automation. Though I suppose an investigation into the matter would arguably have to look at whether a competent human driver would be driving at 17mph (27km/h) under those circumstances to begin with, rather than just comparing the relative reaction speeds, taking the hazardous situation for granted. What I would like to see is a full-scale vehicle simulator where humans are tested against virtual scenarios that faithfully recreate autonomous driving accidents to see how "most people" would have acted in the minutes leading up to the event as well as the accident itself
- aaomidi 9mo ago17 mph is pretty slow unless it’s a school zone
- dcanelhas 9mo agoIndeed, 15 or 25 mph (24 or 40 km/h) are the speed limits in school zones (when in effect) in CA, for reference. But depending on the general movement and density and category of pedestrians around the road it could be practically reckless to drive that fast (or slow).
- Teknoman117 9mo agoIf my experience driving through a school zone on my way to work is anything to go off of, I rarely see people actually respecting it. 17 mph would be a major improvement over what I'm used to seeing.
- JBlue42 9mo ago>Though I suppose an investigation into the matter would arguably have to look at whether a competent human driver would be driving at 17mph (27km/h) under those circumstances to begin with, rather than just comparing the relative reaction speeds, taking the hazardous situation for granted. Sure but also throw in whether that driver is staring at their phone, distracting by something else, etc. I have been a skeptic of all this stuff for a while but riding in a Waymo in heavy fog changed my mind when questioning how well I or another driver would've done at that time of day and with those conditions.
- croes 9mo agoWe should take their reporting with grain of salt and wait for official results
- lostlogin 9mo ago> I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation. If it can yell at the kid and send a grumpy email to the parents and school, the automation is complete.
- mholt 9mo agoThe autonomous vehicle should know what it can't know, like children coming out from behind obstructions. Humans have this intuitive sense. Apparently autonomous systems do not, and do not drive carefully, or slower, or give more space, in those situations. Does it know that it's in a school zone? (Hopefully.) Does it know that school is starting or getting out? (Probably not.) Should it? (Absolutely yes.) This is the fault of the software and company implementing it.
- BugsJustFindMe 9mo ago> Humans have this intuitive sense. Some do, some of the time. I'm always surprised by how much credence other people give to the idea that humans aren't on average very bad at things, including perception.
- navigate8310 9mo agoIt's an autonomous vehicle fitted with a gazillion of sensors and data to drive itself. We can expect better from it than humans.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- BugsJustFindMe 9mo agoI'm not sure what your point is here since this was better than many humans. Was it better than all humans? No. But there also isn't a single human who's better than all humans.
- recursive 9mo agoWhat's the success rate of this intuitive sense that humans have? Intuitions are wrong frequently.
- alphazard 9mo agoI'm picturing a 10 second clip showing a child with a green box drawn around them, and position of gas and brake, updating with superhuman reactions. That would be the best possible marketing that any of these self driving companies could hope for, and Waymo probably now has such a video sitting somewhere.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- WheatMillington 9mo agoI dont think Waymo is interested in using a video of their car striking a child as marketing.
- fragmede 9mo agoIt depends on the video. What they should do is arrange for the video to get leaked and let the Internet courts argue about it, and then based on the Internet verdict, come out and claim it's real and they fired somebody for leaking it, or it's AI generated. Love him or hate him, releasing the video is something I can see Elon doing because assuming a human driver would have done worse, it speaks for itself. Release a web video game where the child sometimes jumps out in front of the car, and see how fast humans respond like the "land Starship" game. Assuming humans would do worse, that is. If the child was clearly visible through the car or some how else avoidable by humans, then I'd be hiding the video too.
- deleted 9mo ago[deleted]
- barbazoo 9mo agoFor me it would be interesting to know if 17 mi/h was a reasonable speed to be driving in this environment under these conditions to begin with. In my school zones that's already close to the maximum speed allowed. What was the weather, were there cars parked which would make a defensive driver slow down even more?
- boh 9mo agoSo the TechCrunch headline should be "Waymo hits child better than a human driver would"? Not sure if the details reflect how the general public actually interprets this story (see the actual TC headline for exhibit A).
- moomoo11 9mo agoThe general public is stupid. That’s why they purchase goods and services (from others) and then cry about things they don’t and probably never will understand. And why they can be ignored and just fed some slop to feel better. I could lie but that’s the cold truth. Edit: I'm not sure if the repliers are being dense (highly likely), or you just skipped over context (you can click the "context" link if you're new here) > So the TechCrunch headline should be "Waymo hits child better than a human driver would"? Not sure if the details reflect how the general public actually interprets this story (see the actual TC headline for exhibit A). That is the general public sentiment I was referring to.
- boh 9mo agoSo if they were 100% self-sufficient and understood everything they'd be smart enough to interpret a child being hit at 6 mph as progress? Fun how "general public" is always a "they" vs "you".
- moomoo11 9mo agoThat's impossible though. And you and I are part of the general public as well, for things we don't understand. It isn't me vs them. It is just me being self-aware. Clearly, you had a problem with what I said so I must have struck a nerve. Welcome to the real world bro.
- butlike 9mo agoYour comment sounds like subconsciously you're trying to come off as stronger than the general public, which begs the question: Why? Why do you need to prove your strength over the populace?
- butlike 9mo agoTake that particular Waymo car off the road. Seems absurd, but they still hit someone.
- pizzafeelsright 9mo agoThe car is not the problem. The problem is the intersection of human and machine operating independently of each other with conflicting intention. I am personally a fan of entirely automated but slow traffic. 10mph limit with zero traffic is fast enough for any metro area.
- WalterBright 9mo agoWhen I was a boy, I ran into the street from between two parked cars. I did not notice the car coming, but he noticed me popping out from nowhere, and screeched to a stop. I was very very lucky.
- socalgal2 9mo agoI saw a girl dart out between to parked cars on a strode. She was less lucky. The car did slam on their breaks. I have no idea what speed it was ultimately going when they hit the girl. It wasn't enough to send her flying but it was enough to knock her over hard. The dad, was sitting in his front yard and had her up and in his car and I'm guessing rushed to the hospital. Those kind of neighborhoods where the outer houses face the fast large roads I think are less common now but lots of them left over from the 50+ years ago.
- WalterBright 9mo agoI once rounded a blind curve on a non-residential street only to find a man on a bicycle pulling a trailer with his baby in it, stopped in the middle of the road. I stopped and yelled at him, which surprised him. That incident still gives me the willies.
- jacquesm 9mo agoYou yelled at someone because you were in the wrong? Panic reaction?
- joha4270 9mo agoWhatever our human laws and morality says about right and wrong and fault, the laws of physics usually judges the car a winner when it hits somebody. Placing yourself somewhere where pedestrians are not expected (non-residental road) mostly hidden from oncoming traffic for an extended period is putting yourself in undue risk.
- 9mo ago
- dfxm12 9mo agoWaymo driver? The vehicles are autonomous. I otherwise applaud Waymo's response, and I hope they are as cooperative as they say they will be. However, referring to the autonomous vehicle as having a driver is a dangerous way to phrase it. It's not passive voice, per se, but it has the same effect of obscuring responsibility. Waymo should say we, Waymo LLC, subsidiary of Alphabet, Inc., braked hard... Importantly, Waymo takes full ownership for something they write positively: Our technology immediately detected the individual.... But Waymo weasels out of taking responsibility for something they write about negatively.
- packetslave 9mo ago> Waymo driver? The vehicles are autonomous the "Waymo Driver" is how they refer to the self-driving platform (hardware and software). They've been pretty consistent with that branding, so it's not surprising that they used it here. > Importantly, Waymo takes full ownership for something they write positively [...] But Waymo weasels out of taking responsibility for something they write about negatively Pretty standard for corporate Public Relations writing, unfortunately.
- mlsu 9mo agoAn honest account of this situation would place at least some blame on there being a tall SUV blocking visibility. These giant SUVs really are the worst when it comes to child safety
- javchz 9mo agoI bet we'll the the SUV mania in the future as something crazy, like smoking in a plane or using lead for gasoline. Irrational large size cars that people get because everyone it's afraid of another SUV hitting them in a sedan. The tragedy of the commons.
- mlsu 9mo agoYou're right, but there will be some brand new, even worse social psychosis by then, surely. Cigarette smoking actually makes more sense to me than giant cars -- at least it only hurts the person doing the smoking!
- bertil 9mo agoThe best reaction from Waymo would have been to start to lobby against letting those monster-trucks park on streets near schools. They are killing so many children, I'm flabbergasted they are still allowed outside of worksites.
- mlsu 9mo agoFrom a "my opinion" standpoint, yes, I would love to see this. From a tactical PR standpoint, it would be a disaster. Muh big truuuucks is like a third rail because Americans are car obsessed as a culture. They already hit a kid, best to save some energy for the next battle. Besides if Waymo wins (in general) private car ownership will decrease which is a win regardless. And maybe Waymo can slowly decrease the size of their fleet to ease up the pressure on this insane car size arms race.
- tommica 9mo agoWhat I find a bit confusing is that no one is putting any blame on the kid. I did the same thing as a kid, except it was a school bus instead of SUV, and that was a fucking stupid thing to do (I remember starting to run over the street, and the next thing is that I am in the hospital bed), even though I had been told to always cross the street from behind the bus, not in front of it. That day I learned why it was so.
- AndrewKemendo 9mo agoIn fact I would call that “superhuman” behavior across the board. The vast vast vast majority of human drivers would not have been able to accomplish that braking procedure that quickly, and then would not have been able to manage the follow up so quickly. I have watched other parent drivers in the car pick up line at public schools for the last 16 years and people are absolutely trash at navigating that whole process and parents drive so poorly it’s absurd. At least half parents I see on their phones while literally feet away from hitting some kid.
- mmooss 9mo agoHow do you know how quickly the software braked? A blog post by a company selling a product is not credible material. We need independent sources. > The vast vast vast majority of human drivers ... would not have been able to manage the follow up so quickly You are saying the "vast vast vast majority of human drivers" wouldn't pull over after hitting a child? I remember similar blind faith in and unlimited advocacy for anything Tesla and Musk said, and look how that has turned out. These are serious issues for the people in our communities, not a sporting event with sides.
- Tepix 9mo agoHuman drivers are smart enough to slow down when around a school where kids are being dropped of. This piece of software wasn't. Clearly not superhuman.
- raincole 9mo ago> I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation. > From the Waymo blog Yeah, like, no shit Sherlock. We'd better wait for some videos before making our opinions.
- aucisson_masque 9mo agoCan’t trust a private company. Where is the video recording ?
- socalgal2 9mo agoThis is great. what about all the traffic violations though? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46814583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46814583
- ajdude 9mo ago> reducing speed from approximately 17 mph Isn't the speed limit normally 15 mph or less in a school zone? Was the robotaxi speeding?
- zx8080 9mo ago> remained stopped, moved to the side of the road Stopped or moved? Is it allowed in CA to move car at all after a serious accident happens?
- rapind 9mo agoIf the person got up and walked away I'm not sure what damage you'd be doing by reasonably removing your car from blocking others while waiting for police.
- zx8080 9mo agoIt can be not known to some, but it's not uncommon for person with serious injures to walk and run in the first monents after accident. Injuries can sometimes be hidden. So "walk away" cannot be a legal criteria for decision to move the car or not. There can be some very serious consequences for the "but I did not know" in case of the following collapse or any other damage.
- chmod775 9mo ago> I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation. It's the "best outcome" if you're trying to go as fast as possible without breaking any laws or ending up liable for any damage. German perspective, but if I told people I've been going 30km/h next to a school with poor visibility as children are dropped off around me, I would be met with contempt for that kind of behavior. I'd also at least face some partial civil liability if I hit anyone. There's certainly better handling of the situation possible, it's just that US traffic laws and attitudes around driving do not encourage it. I suspect many human drivers would've driven slower, law or no law.
- ChrisMarshallNY 9mo agoI suspect the robotaxi may have done better than a human. Human reaction times are terrible, and lots of kids get seriously injured, or killed, when they run out from between cars.
- gerdesj 9mo ago"from behind a tall SUV, " I look for shadows underneath stationary vehicles. I might also notice pedestrians "vanishing". I have a rather larger "context" than any robot effort. However, I am just one example of human. My experience of never managing to run someone over is just an anecdote ... so far. The population of humans as a whole manages to run each other over rather regularly. A pretty cheap instant human sensor might be Bluetooth/BLE noting phones/devices in near range. Pop a sensor in each wing mirror and on the top and bottom. The thing would need some processing power but probably nothing that the built in Android dash screen couldn't handle. There are lots more sensors that car manufacturers are trying to avoid for cost reasons, that would make a car way better at understanding the context of the world around it. I gather that Tesla insist on optical (cameras) only and won't do LIDAR. My EV has four cameras and I find it quite hard to see what is going on when it is pissing down with rain, in the same way I do if I don't clean my specs.
- padjo 9mo agoIt's hardly surprising that the version of events from the PR department makes Waymo sound completely blameless.
- jacquesm 9mo agoI easily can: when in a school zone never every go so fast that you can't stop before hitting a kid, especially when visibility is limited.
- oliwarner 9mo ago> From the Waymo blog... I'll just remind anyone reading: they're under no obligation to tell the unvarnished truth on their blog. Even if the NHTSA eventually points out significant failures, getting this report out now has painted a picture of Waymo only having an accident a human would have handled worse. It would be wise to wait and see if the NHTSA agree. Would a driver have driven at 17mph in this sort of traffic or would they have viewed it as a situation where hidden infant pedestrians are likely to step out?
- jeffybefffy519 9mo agoI wonder if another waymo ahead could have seen that child earlier and told the main waymo. This would be pretty neat and have a large safety impact.
- belter 9mo ago>> I honestly cannot imagine a better outcome or handling of the situation. One better than: We investigated our own system and found ourselves to be at no fault?