22 ms·

I'm returning my Framework 16

• grigio 10mo ago
  Thanks for review, the framework is a great idea in theory but in practise is still raw
• oldpersonintx2 10mo ago
  [dead]
• rookderby 10mo ago
  I'm still schlepping around with various used thinkpads. Maybe we get another HP Dev One that sells well this time.
• ndiddy 10mo ago
  I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop). It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many options there. I'm not sure why he even considered the Framework, it's pretty obvious from looking at it that the downside for the configurability is the laptop not being as solidly built as less configurable/repairable alternatives. I would have suggested a Dell XPS if he's ruled out the X1 Carbon, but it looks like Dell still hasn't backtracked from their decision to ruin the XPS keyboard by replacing the function keys with an even less functional ripoff of the Apple touchbar from 10 years ago. I guess the best move is to suck it up and go with the X1 Carbon and deal with the screen resolution for the IPS version being 1200p.
  • brokencode 10mo ago
    Just curious in case somebody knows. Are OLED displays in laptops bad at low light? He cites that as a reason he doesn’t want OLED, but I’ve never noticed such a problem on OLED phones.
    • ndiddy 10mo ago
      A lot of computers with OLED displays use PWM for the low brightness levels, and he seems like the type of person who would be sensitive to that sort of thing.
      • jeffbee 10mo ago
        PWM is the only useful way to drive an LED and the people who deny this are, to me, hilarious. In fact for the author's stated use case of low light conditions PWM really is the only way to do it without wrecking accuracy (and efficiency).
        • winrid 10mo ago
          My no PWM laptops look fine to me for watching movies. Sure, less efficient. But if I can't look at it for more than 30 seconds without my eyes burning then what's the point?
    • piskov 10mo ago
      OLED phones are bad because of flicker
      • antonkochubey 10mo ago
        On iPhones at least you can disable PWM dimming at lower brightness level at the expense of color accuracy. It's in Accessibility/Display settings.
        • piskov 10mo ago
          Now tell me a model which has this given that OLEDs are here since iPhone X Hint: the only one was released in a year that ends with 25
      • brokencode 10mo ago
        Only if you’re sensitive to that flicker, which most aren’t. Otherwise they’re pretty great.
  • cromka 10mo ago
    > having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop) How so? Is this because some proprietary software that isn't available on ARM on Linux?
    • heavyset_go 10mo ago
      Most server and embedded oriented software has been compiled for ARM 7 & 8 for a while now, but in my experience, software you'd use on a desktop might not have ARM builds unless it's popular with RPi or handheld gaming enthusiasts.
      • cromka 10mo ago
        But what do you mean by having builds? You should hardly ever need to download a pre built software from the Internet, outside of the repositories, unless it's proprietary software?
        • heavyset_go 10mo ago
          Repos don't always have everything, and if software is offered via AppImage, Flatpak, etc, you're likely to be working with x86-64 compiled images.
  • operator-name 10mo ago
    > a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many options There’s been a bunch of Windows ARM laptops that aim to directly compete with the M series Macs. Linux compatibility will depend on make on model.
    • ndiddy 10mo ago
      As far as I'm aware, all of the Snapdragon ARM laptops are existing chassis designs with different motherboards. I'm not sure how ARM affects build quality. Moreover, Snapdragon X support on Linux is still heavily a work in progress with issues with sound, power management, webcam support, and video acceleration. I don't know why anyone would go with a Snapdragon laptop today when Intel Lunar Lake excels at the exact same workloads Snapdragon X does, has similar battery life, and Intel actually works on getting device support upstreamed in a timely manner.
  • wpm 10mo ago
    It makes me wonder, does Apple have some insane patent on unibody construction? The pre-Retina unibody MacBook Pros were easily upgradable and very solid. They had a ton of room in the chassis, and hell, the first year of them the battery was toollessly removable. Aside from the keyboard and the screen, it was all latches and a few common Phillips #00's. Why have no manufacturers copied this obviously great construction technique? It's not like a Framework is wildly cheaper than a MacBook, we're already paying a premium, so the costs of subtractive CNC can't be it.
    • lotsofpulp 10mo ago
      I think the costs of milling a solid piece of aluminum that precisely and in those quantities can be “it”. https://youtu.be/lJx6cF-H__I https://youtu.be/lJx6cF-H__I I am not an expert, but it seems to be an engineering achievement, given that no one else does it. I doubt milling methods are patent protected, but rather Apple can use its volume and vertical integration to drive costs down and spend more on the chassis than other laptop designers.
      • AnthonyMouse 10mo ago
        Apple is #4 in laptop sales. Lenovo, Dell and HP each have at least as much volume. Apple also has higher margins than those companies, implying that any cost savings they make on other components aren't making it into the price anyway. It's probably just that it costs a little more to do it and most customers wouldn't pay a premium to have it.
        • Kon5ole 10mo ago
          >Apple is #4 in laptop sales. Lenovo, Dell and HP each have at least as much volume. True but they divide their sales among several models. Gaming models, 2-in-1s, 13" to 17" and so on. Apple not only has fewer models they often keep the same case design between generations which also benefits economies of scale.
• OsrsNeedsf2P 10mo ago
  TL;dr Framework isn't worth the price. If you put it apples to apples with a great product like the M1, Framework loses everywhere. I had the same conclusion after daily driving both for 2 years; until yesterday, when my water bottle opened in my backpack and soaked them. When I got home, I ripped apart my Framework and dried each piece. I left the M1 by my heater and tried to dry it out. This morning, I put the Framework back together, and everything except the keyboard works. The M1 won't boot. While I did pay a ridiculous amount for my Framework, the keyboard is 50$ to replace. After the M1 design had me feeling it was more premium, it ultimately failed first.
  • 65 10mo ago
    To be fair I once spilled water all over my Macbook's keyboard. It wouldn't boot for weeks afterward. I got a new computer and then checked back a few months later and my Macbook was magically able to boot.
  • foldr 10mo ago
    As the sibling says, it’s definitely worth waiting at least a week or two to see if the M1 recovers. I’ve had the same experience.
  • Normal_gaussian 10mo ago
    As the multiple siblings say, let it sit. Some desiccant next to it to suck moisture out of the air will help - rice is famously OK for this - no need to put it in the desiccant. A little bit of airflow is also good. You may also find that rotating it into different positions accelerates it.
  • nottorp 10mo ago
    Any repair shops specialized in saving devices from water in your area? Haven't had a laptop rescued yet, but there was a phone simply dropped in water in my family. I put it in a 1 kg rice bag, drove to the repair shop. I don't know what magic they did but it worked for 2 more years until we upgraded it.
  • lurking_swe 10mo ago
    1 day is way too little time. make sure the room’s humidity is low, and consider unscrewing the back part of the body to let it dry more quickly. I’d try again in 2-3 days. Water doesn’t leave any (or much) residue after it dries. Unlike other drinks.
• TOGoS 10mo ago
  I'd return my Framework laptop if that was still an option. First they sent me bad RAM, and left me on my own to sort it out with Crucial, which never went anywhere. The mainboard has some weird power issue that prevents the modular ports, which are otherwise a cool idea, from working properly, and I went back and forth with support about that for two years before they finally told me it was out of warranty so I was SoL. Then there's the screen that falls backwards. Should've bought an old Thinkpad, instead.
  • The_President 10mo ago
    They replaced the hinges on a batch 5 this year for free when I finally complained about it. I just asked nicely and showed them a video of a fan blowing the screen down. New ones are tuned as expected.
• comte7092 10mo ago
  I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability. People (not necessarily the author, but likely many commentators that make similar complains about the frameworks price) will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop, or the price. I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though. Rergardless, what I feel like we see here (along with a lack of scale from a small company) is the core tradeoffs that we’d have to make to get back repairability, etc. framework certainly isn’t above criticism, but if you don’t care about these things then why look at this machine? A large established brand is always going to offer a a better value on the things you care about.
  • api 10mo ago
    I feel like Framework wasn’t for this customer. They would have been happier with a Lenovo or something or a Mac.
    • mPogrzeb 10mo ago
      I agree, although I do not think even Lenovo would be enough.
  • Numerlor 10mo ago
    Value wise when trying to spec out my personal Lenovo laptop on framework, it'd never get anywhere close to being worth it even if I completely made use of the hardware after a future upgrade. Framework makes sense if you're going in on the sustainability idea, but other than that it's really just an expensive laptop that's not compelling against its competitors
• debo_ 10mo ago
  Author doesn't cite how they decided that only MacBook or Framework would fit their needs. I've never had trouble with Dell laptops with any Linux distro I cared about. If I wanted a powerful Linux laptop, I'd probably look at something like Dell's premium model: https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/laptops-ultrabooks/dell-16-premium-laptop/spd/dell-da16250-laptop/caeda16250hbtshslv#customization-anchor https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/laptops-ultrabooks/dell-16-p...
  • justarandomname 10mo ago
    My first laptop back in 2005ish or so was a Dell Latitude. Ran XP until Vista came out and I switch to Linux which it ran for a couple years until it was stolen from my car. I recall unimaginable pain and suffering due to wifi, which, IIRC, I side-stepped by buying replacing the stock Broadcom card with an Atheros card and I'm certain is not nearly much of an issue as it used to be.
    • debo_ 10mo ago
      2005 is a really long time ago.
      • justarandomname 10mo ago
        Yeah, 2 decades! I was just enjoying a bit of nostalgia for that old clunky grey laptop.
        • debo_ 10mo ago
          I regularly installed debian back then, and it would take me a week to get things working pretty much every time.
        • nkydr0i0 10mo ago
          Reminds me of how the MC in Pantheon uses an old clunker :)
    • kelnos 10mo ago
• chipheat 10mo ago
  > I read various reports of the Framework 13 having issues with poor battery life, fan noise, heating, etc Intriguing, I read the same but instead for the Framework 16. I ended up getting the AMD 7040 Framework 13 because of those reviews.
• starkparker 10mo ago
  > One option is the Framework 13 given that it solves at least some issues I have with the Framework 16 (e.g. it's bulkiness and inability to lower the brightness further), but it also seems to share many of the other issues such as poor speaker quality and (at least from hat I could find) worse heat regulation, and a (possibly) worse battery. The speakers are bad, but as a 13 owner I don't see or understand the heat or battery complaints specifically vs. the 16, it's considerably better on both fronts in the current iterations of the 13. Unless you're comparing them to a Mac running macOS? It isn't clear, but in which case yeah, obviously it's worse than a Mac. What I don't understand is why you bought the 16 instead of the 13. You didn't seem to need or use the discrete GPU, which is arguably the entire reason it exists. The only other feature you mention as useful that the 13 doesn't have is QMK support.
  • YorickPeterse 10mo ago
    I literally mention the reason in the article in the "Configuration" section (https://yorickpeterse.com/articles/im-returning-my-framework-16/#configuration https://yorickpeterse.com/articles/im-returning-my-framework...)...
    • starkparker 10mo ago
      Yeah, and as others have noted here in the comments, it doesn't make sense. You don't want bulk, but you chose the bulkiest option. You want a display with more even brightness and colors, but you chose the model intentionally built around a more refresh-performant but uneven display. You either don't care about or didn't bother measuring GPU performance, but you chose the model designed entirely around novel GPU features. You cite unsourced reports of 13s having anti-properties, but it reads like you didn't research either newer 13s or the 16 at all.
• brcmthrowaway 10mo ago
  What about Qualcomm's Windows ARM M1 competitor?
  • wmf 10mo ago
    X Elite is mostly regarded as a dud.
    • garretraziel 10mo ago
      I have one and I am really happy with it. YMMV of course.
• justarandomname 10mo ago
  I've had a Framework 13 for nearly a year, been very happy with it, I've taken it on international work trips but it mostly sits on my desk with external displays attached. I ran Windows on it until I switched jobs, now its Ubuntu. I also have an X1 Nano, which I love too, its the around-the-house laptop and a great little machine but whenever it dies, if I replace it at all, it will likely be with another Framework (perhaps the 12") The real test will be in 2-3 years when I'm itching for an upgrade, assuming Framework is still around, I'll be able to swap out the MoBo and leave everything else as-is. We'll see.
  • thenobsta 10mo ago
    Same. I'm very happy with my FW13 too. It replaces the MBA for my purposes -- dev on linux (mostly webdev on this machine, have a remote machine for gpu/heavy work), web browsing, streaming, some very light gaming (portal 2 on steam). I'm waiting on that test too :) a few more cpu generations and I'll be itching to upgrade. I'm excited to for that to happen.
• linsomniac 10mo ago
  >A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working For a couple decades I was running exclusively Thinkpads, and always loved replacing the keyboard because it made it feel like an entirely new laptop. It also usually was quite easy and inexpensive. Probably worth doing in this case if there are no good alternatives. Unfortunately, the X1 Carbon is, due to the form factor, a bit tricky, but probably won't take more than an hour or two depending on your skill level. You have to go in through the back, and there are around 100 screws that need to be removed and reinstalled. Could be worse though, I replaced a friends daughter's keyboard in her Dell, and that was a similar remove-the-motherboard operation, but the keyboard was plastic welded in place.
• The_President 10mo ago
  Sorry your product experience was sub-par. We have four of the various revisions and the quality is on par with the other laptops in the price bracket. Framework versus MacBook - Not even a comparison - One of them you can do whatever you want with, and the other not so much. Linux is the best option for these computers, as with Windozers the battery life is worse. Baseline CPU idle on a clean linux install is like 0.5% - this results in a low power use battery life of about 7 hours on the 13" model under web browsing/audio playing loads.
  • Rebelgecko 10mo ago
    My Framework seems to get worse battery life on Linux than Windows. Different tools like powertop help close the gap, but inevitably if I put the framework in a bag for a week, it'll be dead when I take it out
    • The_President 10mo ago
      I shut mine down completely and haven't had the battery drain issue, but on "modern standby," yes these don't last very long. Probably 2-3% per hour on standby and worse than that if anything is plugged into the expansion slots.
    • sillystuff 10mo ago
      If your laptop is using a recent AMD Ryzen based SoC: ACPI C4 power state (for powering down more of the SoC during S0ix suspend) is not supported on Linux yet, for recent (last couple years) AMD processors. Patches submitted for 6.18 were described as "laying the foundation for AMD C4 support". So, maybe won't be fully supported until 6.19 or even later; Sorry, I haven't followed up to see what has actually landed.
      • The_President 10mo ago
        Thank you - Good info
      • Rebelgecko 10mo ago
• buckle8017 10mo ago
  He bought the last likely to be compatible and oversized option. Of course he didn't like it.
• RomanPushkin 10mo ago
  Nothing beats a MacBook Air if you’re not chasing raw performance. I ended up with two machines: - MacBook Air (16GB) - MINISFORUM UM870 with 48GB RAM The Air is unbeatable for portability and battery life. The MinisForum is still “portable enough” and gives me real horsepower when I need it. I flew SF -> NY -> SF with the MinisForum and a portable monitor as carry-on. Everything fit in a Trader Joe’s tote bag. I even presented a conference talk using that setup. For ~$2k total, you can buy: - a MacBook Air - a small PC + one or two portable monitors - and still have money left IMO the era of $2-3–4k “do-everything” laptops is over. I don't see how and why they're competitive.
• Frotag 10mo ago
  I have a Framework 16 from one of the early batches (2023, think it was ~1000usd). > Not only does [the spacers] look weird, you can also feel the gap and edges when resting your palm on them ... and the edges are quite sharp. If you have arm hairs you may consider shaving them off or risk getting them stuck. I also suspect gunk will build up in these edges over time. > There's also a practical problem: due to the flex of the spacers if you try to hold the laptop on its sides it will actually "wobble" a bit. Combined with the weight I suspect that unless you hold on to this laptop for dear life, you will at some point drop it. I can confirm the spacers are raised with an edge (though sharp might be overstating it). It's even at a slightly different height than the touchpad, which is probably more defect than intentional. But I'm not picky about the aesthetics so I don't mind the lines / colors. Can't say I've had issues with the spacers actually flexing or accumulating gunk though. And I carry it one-handed by gripping the corner with the spacer all the time. > The keycaps are a little mushy, which isn't too bad but not great either. Yeah this is an apt description. My biggest gripe is that the keycaps are near impossible to remove / clean without breaking something. > The display isn't terrible, but it's not great either. I had the chance to compare my framework (ips, 165hz, 2560x1600) with some newer laptops recently (3x oled, 2x ips). I was pretty impressed with the colors, very little difference compared to the OLEDs and much better than the shitty IPSs. Text was as sharp as the 3k OLEDs and sharper than the 2k OLEDs. But OLEDs (obviously) had the advantage for darker / high-contrast images. > I didn't do any proper testing of battery usage, but it seems to be on par with other Linux capable laptops based on my usage thus far. This means you'll likely be looking at 6-8 hours of battery per charge for average programming usage. Pretty much. Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that end with V) have amazing battery life. I clocked maybe 16 hours browsing the web / watching youtube. > For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best and certainly doesn't deliver a premium experience. Yeah premium price without the specs and aesthetic to match. But I guess the premium is because of the modularity and (presumably) low production count. Plus I trust Framework's QA a hell of a lot more than any of the dozen HP / Lenovos I've owned. And it is nice that a failed keyboard / touchpad doesn't force me to buy a new machine (which has happened to me because of a spill).
  • kelnos 10mo ago
• eigenspace 10mo ago
  The Framework 16 seems like a pretty unappealing device to me due to the bulk and cost, which is unfortunate. I have a 13 and absolutely love it, but the one thing is that I wish it had a direct PCI-e extension slot that I could use with an e-GPU. Thunderbolt is just too slow. Im in a frustrating situation now where my laptop has a way faster CPU than my desktop, and my desktop has a way faster GPU than the laptop. I really wish I could use my big fancy GPU with my laptop without a massive performance loss.
• could-of 10mo ago
  > A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working, specifically the 5, 6, -, = and Delete keys. Sometimes I can get it working again by mashing one of them for a while, but it's not consistent. I had the same problem on my X1 Carbon generation 6 and managed to fix it simply by disconnecting and reconnecting the keyboard ribbon cable. It's a very easy fix, the only thing you have to unscrew is the bottom cover.
  • YorickPeterse 10mo ago
    I may be wrong here but IIRC at least with the 7th generation you have to disassemble the whole thing to get to the keyboard. I'll have to take a look though, because if it's really that simple then I may be able to make my life a bit easier. Thanks for the suggestion :)
• juancn 10mo ago
  The battery life doesn't appear to be all that better than conventional laptops when running Linux. This isn't entirely surprising because of a lot of the battery improvements on macOS are the result of the software and hardware integration, not just the hardware The issue is the kernel here, not just the hardware. Linux power management is meh.
• wellthisisgreat 10mo ago
  Variety is great, but idk why anyone would buy anything other than MacBook for programming or media work in the age of Apple Silicon. Unless they specifically need CUDA or a particular version of Linux or some Windows features, or actually want to tinker with/ tweak the computer continuously.
  • sdwr 10mo ago
    It's true, they're unbeatable as consumer products now, especially after Intel dropped the ball so hard
  • kelnos 10mo ago
    I'm a programmer but I can't stand macOS, so a MacBook isn't an option, as much as I like the hardware. I've looked at Asahi Linux, but, while they've done an amazing job with no documentation, it doesn't meet my needs. So Debian on a Framework 13 it is. And it's fine! I'd agree that Apple hardware is probably the best, but the difference doesn't really matter to me all that much in practice.
• oldestofsports 10mo ago
  Why would an OLED display not make sense in a low light livingroom situation? I really don’t understand it, what is the issue in this specific scenario?
  • layer8 10mo ago
    I think the author is confused here. Low-light conditions are one of the important use cases for OLED, due to the vastly better blacks.
  • tordrt 10mo ago
    Yeah doesn't make sense, if anything its the opposite. Burn in is probably a valid concern though.
• jeffbee 10mo ago
  Considering this customer's gripes, I might suggest the Lenovo Chromebook Plus 14. It's even lighter than their X1 Carbon, has great battery life, is silent, and has a spectacular display.
• ziml77 10mo ago
  I probably should have returned mine. I still love the idea of the device, but the speakers, display, and trackpad are subpar. I get that I'm spoiled by the quality of a MacBook Pro in those areas, but they still feel worse than other laptops I've tried. Also he says he's never heard the fans spin up but I've had the system spin the fans up very high and they get loud. And the spin-up was definitely valid the times when I checked because the device was extremely hot, I think from charging. Now the laptop is being used as a server. Ended up being good for Jellyfin because I can have the GPU handle transcoding and tonemapping of 4K HDR movies.
  • systemtest 10mo ago
    Would be cool if Framework would sell speakers, a display, trackpad and housing comparable in quality to a MacBook Pro. It would have a high pricetag but you could slowly upgrade your machine. Especially since swapping out speakers or a trackpad is so easy. Right now the Laptop 13 speaker kit is €20 but they could offer a €150 option that performs similar to a MacBook Pro for people who value sound.
    • ziml77 10mo ago
      They should be able to offer a better trackpad module (and I've been hoping that they eventually do). The speakers seem like a harder problem to solve. The acoustic engineering that goes into designing a good speaker involves every element that can interact with the sound waves, not just the driver itself.
    • duped 10mo ago
      The problem is you need correction EQ built into to the drivers tuned to the enclosure (in addition to loudspeakers that are also designed accounting for their directionality, position, and the volume of the enclosure).
      • rangestransform 10mo ago
        you also need a lid angle sensor instead of a open/closed detector to account for the acoustic reflections off of the screen
• RickyLahey 10mo ago
  my tip to people who don't like mac os. buy a macbook pro, disable System Integrity Protection (SIP), gut the OS, live in the terminal and browser. works way better than linux (10h+ battery life, SoC with a lot of memory) and you will barely notice that you're on mac os. It's not windows. there will be no forced updates and surprises.
  • ziml77 10mo ago
    Also install the GNU coreutils (or I guess uutils). If you're begrudgingly using macOS then you're going to hate the differences between BSD and GNU utilities.
  • realusername 10mo ago
    Personally I just can't, I really hate the UI and the software stack. Sure as long as you are in the terminal you don't notice it but at some point you are going to need to open Finder (and Finder really sucks, sorry) and you are going to need to install software and homebrew is in the same category as npm.
    • Hackbraten 10mo ago
      > and homebrew is in the same category as npm. Homebrew runs against a curated and tested package repository maintained by a dedicated team of vetted maintainers. NPM is free-for-all with zero curation. Anyone can upload whatever they want.
      • realusername 10mo ago
        If has maintainers, well it's clear by now from all the security problems which happened in homebrew first that it's nowhere as diligent as apt or rpm. Also next problem with it, I really don't want to build everything from source, otherwise I would use Gentoo and not MacOS...
        • Hackbraten 10mo ago
          > it's clear by now from all the security problems which happened in homebrew What kind of security problems do you mean? > I really don't want to build everything from source Why do you think that Homebrew forces you to build anything from source?
• YegoBear 10mo ago
  So basically the same price as an already decently upgradable Thinkpad P1 G8 on sale, but with a terrible screen and janky chassis. Plus it costs about the same to upgrade as getting a new machine, but then you no longer have the ability to throw Linux on the old one and donate it to a school or less fortune person. Tough sell.
• cdev_gl 10mo ago
  I can't speak to the rest of the text or the laptops themselves, but as someone who works with color reproducibility in video and print, those photos comparing colors of two different screens are worse than useless. Uncalibrated screens photographed at different angles in different lighting conditions are not a valid basis for comparison. If you want properly calibrated displays, you need to purchase hardware (datacolor makes one such device) and calibrate them. Even "factory-calibrated" monitors will benefit from this, because the quality of that calibration varies widely and your color reproduction is going to vary based on ambient lighting conditions etc.
  • Groxx 10mo ago
    I can add anecdata for the factory profile being very over-red - it's quite obvious out of the box. Not as bad as many Samsung OLED phones you see in stores (typically set to some crazy "enhanced" mode), but it's certainly closer to them than a calibrated screen. One thing that has bugged me for a while though: why isn't it possible to make my own color profile by hand? Everything seems to imply that you can only get a profile definition file from a calibration device, and I don't have one... but I can eyeball it significantly better than the default profile. Is there something software out there that will let me adjust my curves, like the OS already does with night-mode color balance changes?
    • GranPC 10mo ago
      I too would be interested in such a tool. I've had some luck finding close-enough ICC profiles, but it would be great to dial it in.
  • YorickPeterse 10mo ago
    The photos are just meant to illustrate the difference to the reader, not to be anything scientific. Of course manual calibration is ideal, but having a somewhat sensible default calibration isn't much to ask for and is in fact something many other laptops do just fine.
    • daviddever23box 10mo ago
• rewgs 10mo ago
  Putting aside anything specific to Framework, this article really puts into perspective just how piss poor the laptop market is right now. Macs have fantastic hardware, but of course only really run macOS. The future of Asahi Linux is very questionable and, like the author, is not something I'm interested in relying on. I don't hate macOS by any means but I much prefer running Arch with Hyprland. PC laptop hardware is just shit in comparison. Like the author, my X1 Carbon (Gen 11) has keys that intermittently fail, and the cooling is pretty bad (I actually love the OLED display, though, and don't really understand the author's concerns here). I haven't found any non-Mac laptops that beat the X1 Carbon line, though (relatively low bar that it is). Frameworks are cool if you are fine with the tradeoffs, but personally I'm just not -- I much prefer to tinker with desktops/servers, and am totally fine with laptops being a physically-closed "appliance," as long as that results in great battery life, cooling, and adequate performance (I can always offload heavy tasks to my desktop if need be). Which is all to say: what I want is Mac equivalent hardware that can reliably run Linux. For now, I've landed on using my extremely beefy Arch desktop when at home, and my M1 MacBook Air (which is still running great 5 years on) when mobile. Even accepting that I'll be using an Apple device when mobile, though, there's still room for improvement in this setup: I'd love LTE support (no, a hot spot isn't a good replacement), a nano-texture display (which appears to be locked to the MacBook Pro line), and either an even smaller footprint (like the old 12-inch MacBook) or a little bit of active cooling to offset the performance regressions in macOS. An iPad might make sense, but I own one and frankly hate it due to OS limitations, such as only a single stream of audio at a time (which causes lots of bugs -- watching a YouTube video while scrolling Reddit will cause the YouTube video to pause whenever you scroll past a video on Reddit, even if it's muted), a lack of terminal, etc. I want a "real" OS, so tablets are out of the question entirely. I don't understand why absolutely zero PC manufacturers have even tried to take on Apple's laptop offerings. Sure, Apple Silicon is great, but Intel and AMD have done an admirable job at increasing battery efficiency since its release; it's not the only component that makes Mac laptops so great. I'm sure these manufacturers know what they're doing in this regard and have decided it doesn't make business sense to take on Apple. But man, I just wish someone would at least try.
  • ruralfam 10mo ago
    1000% agree with this. Been using Macs for decades, but now prefer Linux. But Mac hardware is just so much better. Funny note: Sorta just for fun I bought an old Mac Mini ($25) and installed Mac, Windows, and Linux Mint on it. Fun device that is actually pretty useful with a KVM letting me use it seamlessly with my main Mac (also providing a shared external drive). Fingers crossed that the next leader at Apple after Tim has a Nadella-like moment deciding that Linux can be a friend not a foe.
• turtletontine 10mo ago
  Framework 16 owner here, had mine for a year and a half. While most of this post is also true in my experience, I just don’t care. These are largely small cosmetic nitpicks that you need to look for to notice. The only complaints here that I really share are the jankiness of the spacers (a little jarring at first, but now I’m used to it), and the speakers really are noticeably worse than any of my other devices. So? I don’t watch movies on it, or listen to music, that’s what I have a TV and headphones for. Seems inarguable that you can get a much more “premium” laptop for about the same cost. But I didn’t buy a framework for a “premium” feel… I was hoping to buy the last laptop I’ll ever need. And so far I’m happy with the result! PS: the battery life is by far the best of any laptop I’ve owned. Maybe that just shows that my previous ones were junk, but I’m quite happy with it PPS: I should note my employer was willing to buy it for me, so price was much less of a concern. Not everyone is so lucky ofc
• ta9000 10mo ago
  Or just buy a MBP and use MacOS and not worry about any of these problems. I use Linux for everything but my laptop, but I’m not about to deal with a subpar experience when decent laptops are already so expensive.
• chrsw 10mo ago
  I'm still chugging along on a Dell XPS Developer Edition that came with Ubuntu 20.04 preinstalled. It's not as repairable as a Framework but it's been very reliable. If I had to get a new laptop for personal use today I'd probably go for an X1 Carbon. Those seem to have very good luck with Linux even without OEM installs.
• grimblee 10mo ago
  Tbh I just bought a 250€ refurb laptop, it has 14k cpu benchmark and 16gb ram, 256gb ssd. Honestly do you need more to do terminal emulation? No, you don't. Ok I won't play bg3 on this but that's good, it means I'll be productive !
• endorphine 10mo ago
  I was in a similar situation to OP: my Carbon X1 Gen 8 keys, notably `/` and some arrows keys, stopped functioning. Sometimes they did, but it was very erratic. Luckily, when I replaced the battery (got a lot from iFixit) and tightened all other screws, the keys magically started working again. Saved me quite a few dollars.
• MassPikeMike 10mo ago
  OP wrote: "My current laptop is an aging X1 Carbon generation 7... A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working. I decided it was time to look for a replacement." Isn't that like deciding to replace your bike because some of the cables are rusted? Like a new set of cables, a new keyboard is a small expense compared to a whole new laptop. Like replacing bike cables, swapping in a new Carbon X7 keyboard might be slightly challenging for an amateur. iFixit calls the keyboard replacement "moderate" in difficulty [1] taking about an hour with a new keyboard running about a hundred bucks. But it would be a simple job for a repair shop. So it seems hard to justify the expense of a whole new one rather than just the new part. Of course, sometimes you just want a new laptop, because the bike analogy breaks down a little: unlike bikes, newer ones are inherently faster. [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+7th+Gen+Keyboard+Replacement/137128 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+7th+G...
  • selkin 10mo ago
    Your analogy won’t hold scrutiny with a competitive cyclist: newer bikes are also faster given the same rider, even if not as meaningfully as a new CPU. And modern bikes do make with the need for cable replacement or breakage (hydro lines and electric shifting, while more expensive to service, also require much less of it).
    • izacus 10mo ago
      Life tip: Noone appreciates and there's no utility in nitpicking analogies. They're never the actual point of the message and it's incredibly rude and socially inept to lock onto a side quest like that.
      • selkin 10mo ago
        idk, the OP is all about the author misunderstanding what they bought. Hence a comment about bikes not understanding bikes deserves just as much scrutiny. My own life tip: there are plenty of good analogies, so no need to choose use an example you are not familiar with.
• nottorp 10mo ago
  > Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the evening, OLED just doesn't make sense. Huh? I thought OLED would make a lot of sense with a pure black background theme in your IDE. Less light in your eyes?
• Groxx 10mo ago
  I'm quite happy with mine, and like the keyboard in general though I can see why a coming from a decent Thinkpad would feel like a downgrade. I like it a lot better than the "butterfly" keyboards Apple insisted on, however, and have used quite a few more-expensive laptops with much worse keyboards. And I have gotten WAY more use out of the swappable ports than I expected, that's a killer feature imo. The price is a "put your money where your mouth is" purchase for me on repairability - it's absolutely not competitive with a same-priced machine. But it's not too crazy if you upgrade or replace damaged parts, the significantly lower costs there add up extremely quickly. The speakers though. Holy cow. They're truly awful and I think they drag down the entire product - put them over 50% and they blow out the sound and distort extremely badly. They really need to change them, I'd happily pay a premium to get something more usable.
• desireco42 10mo ago
  I have the similar ThinkPad like the author, except Gen 3, I7, 16Gb. Have Omarchy on it, works like a charm, even camera is not bad. Battery works but I can plug it in the same dock my macbook is (two usb-c dock). While you can change keyboard or battery on your Thinkpad, they are cheap enough, around $500 that you can just get a new one. I get why he wanted Framework, they say 13" are much better and more useful deal then 16". I wish Framework 12" is better, but it is not. Maybe Apple can dazzle us at this form factor.
• INTPenis 10mo ago
  As a long time Linux user I only recently tried my first framework (12), and shortly after got the 13 too because I realized that this is the laptop for me. I wish I had realized it earlier. But it's so refreshing as a linux user to use a laptop actually designed for linux, and have everything work so great out of box like battery and wifi. Sure I've always used Laptops famously Linux-friendly, but it was still hit or miss, especially with new releases, and you always felt like you were breaking warranty somehow. The entire experience buying a Framework, and using it, has been amazing. I'm hooked.
  • tomComb 10mo ago
    Yes, that does sound good, but if someone wants an inexpensive laptop that is also “actually designed for Linux”, they should keep in mind Chromebooks. I don’t think of these as competitors to the framework, but as a lower end alternative that is usually overlooked.
  • paulbgd 10mo ago
    kinda similar experience with my thinkpad t14s gen 2 amd (what a name.) I like framework's philosophy, but there's so many refurbished business laptops out there (many unused) that I like upgrading every few years to a 3-4 yr old laptop. Getting a laptop that's linux certified has been better than I thought, things like sleep and power management "Just Work" whereas on other laptops I'd spend more time configuring TLP or even just hibernating every time because I couldn't get a good sleep experience. Hope this inspires the other manufacturers to work on getting this working out of the box.
  • andreashaerter 10mo ago
    I've been using ThinkPads with Linux since the T410, T420, T430, T480s, and several others. For me, they've consistently delivered an "everything works out of the box" experience with Ubuntu and/or Fedora, including things like SmartCard readers. I'm currently on a Lenovo X13 Gen 6 (AMD), and the only component that required any tinkering was the 5G WWAN due to FCC unlock issues (see: https://github.com/lenovo/lenovo-wwan-unlock/issues/68 https://github.com/lenovo/lenovo-wwan-unlock/issues/68 ). One thing many people don't realize is that some Lenovo models can be ordered with Fedora pre-installed. That's a pretty strong signal for Linux compatibility. I've been watching Framework for years, and among my Linux-using colleagues we have ThinkPads, Frameworks, and Tuxedo machines, so comparisons are easy. I really want to like Framework, but recurring firmware issues, noise (!!), and the lack of built-in 4G/5G antennas have pushed me toward Lenovo every time. That said, I do like the modular idea. I even use a small USB-C adapter permanently to protect the port from wear, almost all docking/monitor issues I've seen over the years came down to worn cables or ports. In that sense, Framework's modules are genuinely appealing.
• InTheArena 10mo ago
  I ordered a framework desktop and got it "by accident" - in that I forgot that I had put down a deposit on a fully maxed out Ai MAX395+. After a few days of using it, I decided to keep it, and given how incredibly expensive 8tb NVMe drives and DDR5-8000 has beocme since then (even if you could get DDR-8000 on desktop form factor) - I don't regret that decision at all. It's a great little box - and AI is getting closer to colser to being a good experience. That said, I have run into a set of frustrations with it: 1) The PCIEx is completely useless on the board. Forget about room for the slot - it's not exposed, there isn't enough exposure inside of the case. This is a real miss - It seems perfect for a occulink port or another USB4 port. 2) USB4 + PCIe tunneling was a mess. Seems to be working better now. 3) There are some real thermal envelopes that are resulting in similar systems with the exact same architecture running 10% faster then this box. That's a big bummer - apparently it's tunable in their bios, but framework really limits the bios settings. 4) Randomly right now, the latest kernel on Ubuntu seems to freeze on boot. No idea why - I can move to the older .5 kernel, and it;s working. All that said, for what it offers - Framework offers a lot. I really honestly believe that either Mac or Framework is the way to go if you need significant compute power on the desktop.
  • summa_tech 10mo ago
    I feel ya on the PCIe slot. And the on-board NICs are sub-par Realtek garbage, unacceptable both on features and quality. However, you can fit a small SFP+ card inside if you (a) cut out a correctly shaped hole in your case, and (b) turn the fan on at 40% instead of letting it turn off. The card will sit at a small angle but work fine, and with some 3D printing I even got a mounting bracket in to keep it stable. A lower profile connector, like USB 4, might fit outright.
    • InTheArena 10mo ago
      Yeah, I was thinking of running a Occulink connector to the side of the case, the problem is that this would need a riser, and I don't think that occulink - even with a redriver, would do well with two additional physical connectors. On the 5GB realtek - i think their 5G is far better then their 1g or 2.5g devices where.
• mfer 10mo ago
  I bought an early framework 13. It cost a little more. I’ve since upgraded the main board to get a faster/newer experience. The overall cost has been less than 2 laptops. Some of this depends if you’re playing the long game
  • TylerE 10mo ago
    On the other hand, if you'd bought two laptops... you'd have another laptop.
    • guipsp 10mo ago
      While that is true, it's not like I can use two laptops at once
• fl4regun 10mo ago
  [dead]
• trueismywork 10mo ago
  > The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't a problem with the X1. The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and compares it to x1 carbon. Modular ports > Like the keyboard area the design is a bit janky though, with visible lines/space between the adapters and the case, though this at least is something you won't notice unless you're explicitly looking for it. Not sure how you can make things like this not to have any lines for what its worth. So not sure what author is going for. The author doesnt know what he wants and doesn't know what framework provides.
  • kelnos 10mo ago
    Yeah I never get this complaint about 16" laptops. Hell, I don't really get 16" laptops at all: they're huge! You're making a very strange trade off: they're only barely portable, and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get with a desktop.
    • Aurornis 10mo ago
      > they're only barely portable, Maybe for a very small person or someone who strictly travels light? But I’ve never had any problem with 15” or 16” laptops even while traveling internationally. > and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get with a desktop This isn’t really true any more unless your desktop is a gaming monster or full of multiple drives or something. I can have a 128GB RAM laptop with ultra fast CPU on the go now and it’s not a problem.
      • heavyset_go 10mo ago
        You lose a lot of potential performance that comes with both efficient cooling and maintaining throughput in sustained loads. Laptops are thermally inefficient and require throttling even with active cooling, meaning mobile chipsets are programmed to emit less heat over time. You might hit advertised boost speeds for a little bit, but you can sustain them on properly cooled desktops. Then there's the fact that mobile chips are TDP capped at much lower rates than desktops, both to save power and to limit heat. Theoretically, your mobile chipset has a better $/Wh rate, but you leave some performance on the table compared to desktops.
• emeril 10mo ago
  can't he just replace the keyboard? I'd imagine that won't be too hard?
  • YorickPeterse 10mo ago
    Did you miss the following parts? Given my past experiences with X1 Carbon laptops breaking outside of warranty and the frustration that comes with replacing their components, I decided it was time to look for a replacement. [...] There are also some other issues with the X1 line in general, such as poor CPU cooling and the absolute nightmare that is opening them up to replace parts or clean them properly. Maintaining an X1 is certainly possible, but it's incredibly frustrating and based on my past experiences with this series I strongly suspect other components will also fail in the near future.
• schmuckonwheels 10mo ago
  Framework 16 has a 6 port maximum. 6. That means if you want: - HDMI - Ethernet (a must if you're doing real work) - an audio jack (why is this even an option?) - SD reader - USB-A port You are allowed (1) USB-C port. This is in a > $2200 laptop. $200 netbooks had all this (minus the Ethernet port) standard 10 years ago. This is unacceptable. An artificial limit imposed by the mechanicals of the inefficiently large port modules - an idea that should have never left a whiteboard, let alone made it into a production laptop. On the bright side you are forced into configuring them as all USB-C, you can reuse the man purse you used to carry all your dongles from an earlier generation Macbook.
  • mixmastamyk 10mo ago
    I think they have another USB-C on the back if you get the upgraded video module. I wish all desktop replacement laptops had copious ports on the back like my Dell from ~2010 did. Who wants video cables jutting out sideways across your desk?
  • beeflet 10mo ago
    I don't really use ethernet, or an audio jack, or an SD card reader regularly. I just use wifi and bluetooth, and I suspect most people do as well. You can also just keep the extra dongles in your backpack and plug them into any open USB-C ports, or just unplug the dongles to free up more USB-C ports as needed.
• KennyBlanken 10mo ago
  > Since I use my laptop for programming and often use it in low light conditions such as a living room with dimmed lights in the evening, OLED just doesn't make sense. What? Low light is ideal for OLED compared to most LCDs where in low light contrast is poor due to bleed-through on the black areas via the backlight. The problem here isn't the laptop, it's between the keyboard and chair. > I narrowed it down to two options: Buy a refurbished M1 or M2 Macbook and run Asahi Linux Buy a Framework ...or stop being a dogmatic baby about your OS and run MacOS, which is infinitely better than Linux as a desktop OS? > I looked at some other brands but it appears that in 2025 there's just aren't many good options for Linux users A market of less than 1% has terrible options? *gasp* The only people still using Linux on desktop are people who think that *twenty five years* into "the year of the linux desktop" this will be the year that Linux doesn't stop being the worst option for a desktop OS. If 2/3rds of the current linux distros hung up the hat and went to go help with other distros, there _might_ actually be progress on this front - but the nerds are too interested in fighting over asinine personal preference type things nobody else cares about, to actually make a distro that works properly and reliably. The Linux world is so hopelessly fragmented and there's thousands of people doing the same work as at least 6 other people all because they think their particular way of installing a linux package is better or their file layout is best.
• orthecreedence 10mo ago
  I'm on a Framework 13. Aside from the wretched 4:3 screen size (which I knew in advance, it was a tradeoff, but my god I miss 16:10) I really do like it. No battery issues, the thing is incredibly fast. I've had the pleasure of repairing parts of it (screen, keyboard) and it has been super easy. The touchpad's button click could be a little more "tuned" (I miss physical separate buttons), but that's my only functional gripe. But seriously, make a 14" 16:10 Framework please. I will buy a new one just for that.
  • mixmastamyk 10mo ago
    The 3:2 screen on the 13" is fantastic, I disagree and won't buy another shorter screen again.
• mlacks 10mo ago
  kind of short sided on the laptop choices. M1/2 for Asahi or Framework. What? Plenty of options from HP, not to mention German-assembled Tuxedo, and System76. Even moreso if going used
• Const-me 10mo ago
  A new keyboard for X1 Carbon 7th gen is available on e-bay for the price of $50-100. A faulty keyboard is IMO not a good reason to replace a whole computer.
• g947o 10mo ago
  > Knowing my luck I'd also run into OLED burn-in the moment the warranty expires. Not being aware of the author's history of luck, that's an extraordinary claim. OLED screens are commonplace in modern devices -- phones, tablets, laptops and desktop monitors etc. If burn-in is still a real and significant concern, manufacturers would not have released so many devices, often with OLED screen as the only option. You would see videos on YouTube and TikTok warning you about OLED screens everywhere. If anything, battery life is a bigger issue. I really wish the author had done more research before making the decision or writing this piece.
• mgaunard 10mo ago
  The X1 Carbon is fine, not sure what is wrong with the 2k IPS display. Do you need 4k for a 13 inch laptop?
• cycomanic 10mo ago
  I don't understand the author, on the one hand he complains about the repairability of the thinkpads (which is weird in itself, they are still the most repairable laptops bar framework, especially because it's trivial to find resellers for pretty much all the parts. If finding all the screws is a problem, then you can just look at the repair manuals which are freely available. But after complaining about repairability he the looks at apples as alternative, which are like orders of magnitude less repairable than thinkpads.
• avidphantasm 10mo ago
  I know, the repairability isn’t great, and they’re not upgradable at all. macOS can be annoying and restrictive. But life is short, so I just buy MacBook Pros. I wasted too many hours in my 20s getting Linux to work on the desktop (not to mention a laptop).
• ahachete 10mo ago
  I have two Framework 13 DIY, top of the line (Ryzen AI 9 HX 370, 96 GB of RAM, 2TB WD BLACK SN850X). Well, TBH just one, the other one was stolen with less than one month, but that's a different story. Can't be happier with this choice. First of all, now I feel confident I can easily tinker with my laptop, open it and replace any components. No, I'm not repeating their Marketing, I'm truly confident now. Some months ago my previous Lenovo X1 Carbon stopped charging and I was scared as hell. Sure, I have everything in version control and cloud drives blah blah blah but if it doesn't charge, it's dead. Sure, I can extract the NVMe (is it easy at all?) and rsync the data (for a faster recovery) but is that easy, feasible, can I do it on the go (X1 stopped charging while I was on a trip). The Framework 13 DIY I built it in less than 10 minutes. I can easily disassemble again in a heartbeat. This is priceless. Other than this, build quality is higher than expected, and several other people said exactly the same when I showed my unit. Powerful? Most than any desktop out there. Perfectly portable. Works well OOB with Linux. What else do I need? Nothing, it's my laptop and will be the next one. (Actually the next one may be cheaper, as I may only need to replace the motherboard, we will see)
  • YorickPeterse 10mo ago
    What's the battery life you're getting out of the Ryzen AI 9?
    • ahachete 10mo ago
      TBH I haven't deeply tested it yet. Laptop is a few days old and I'm still "automating the install" (Ubuntu autoinstall + Ansible tasks for post-installation including BIOS upgrade and install Nix + Nix and home manager to install everything else; post(s) upcoming), so I haven't done "production use" yet. Anyway, and while I love long battery life, it's not my main concern. Most of the time I have a power socket available and/or a nice portable battery pack that does the job. Laptop feels so much faster than my X1 Carbon that everything else seems to be a distant second feature. P.S. Hi, Yorick, again, not the first time we cross paths ;)
  • dachris 10mo ago
    Writing this on a first-gen 13 DIY, so it's already a bit dated. I've already added additional RAM and swapped in a much bigger SSD (really underestimated how much space you need if you heavily use docker and VMs). The 1st year was a bit bumpy with 4k monitors over a USB-C hub being somewhat flaky. Ever since a clean Ubuntu reinstall, I'm very happy, no complaints whatsoever. Sure, it costs more, but the combo of perfectly running Linux, giving me the piece of mind of repairability and easy upgrades for me justifies a higher price. On the other hand, I'm not willing to pay the kind of premium you have with Apple products, where for incremental steps in more RAM or SSD you pay a multiple of the off-the-shelf price of the added space.
• makeitdouble 10mo ago
  > two thousand Euros There is a lot of weight put into this number...and it seems that everyone forgot why US makers prices have inflated to this point. It's not to polish the "premium" experience, it's tariffs spread on the whole customer base.
  • brachkow 10mo ago
    Laptops are compared to other laptops availiable on market. Apple sells a entry line of their premium laptops at 1000$. And these are VERY good laptops.
    • makeitdouble 10mo ago
      Setting aside opinions about the product, the first 16" mac is around 2849 euros in the EU https://www.apple.com/be-fr/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-pouces https://www.apple.com/be-fr/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/16-pouc...
      • kassner 10mo ago
        The MacBook Air 15” costs €1399, doesn’t sound too economical to pay double the price for the extra 0.9”
        • makeitdouble 10mo ago
          My point was more that throwing around the lowest price point (in a different currency...) of a differently positionned product line helps nothing. Comparing Macs to Framework laptops is also an exercise in frustration in that nobody's seriously looking at the two for the exact same task. The price point discussion was already a distraction IMHO. Can you imagine someone thinking "I'm gonna buy an officially supported fully user repairable Linux dev machine, should I get a MacBook Air 15?" or "I own everything in the Apple ecosystem and just need 'a laptop', how does that 100% incompatible machine fit my needs ?" How much of an overlap is there really ? I totally understand the article author getting mad when he was looking for a completely different thing in the first place.
• poisonborz 10mo ago
  Rather subjective. I'm really happy with a used "16 gaming laptop, top performance, memory ssd extendable, extremely good display for ~1200€. Build quality is "ok" and creeks a bit, but magnitudes better value than a Thinkpad/Mac, even used ones.
• zeckalpha 10mo ago
  Display being bright even on the lowest setting: I wonder about rshifting the raster bytes...
• pech0rin 10mo ago
  I ran linux for 15 years on a range of different machines. Desktop the most successfully. For laptops I tried everything but once I switched to a mac I’ve never gone back. The hardware is at least twice as good as any other laptop. I’ve seen framework getting a lot of mind share recently. Especially with DHH singing their praises. I have come to loathe apple software over the years but can’t get over terrible build quality. I thought framework was supposed to be the premium linux option but after reading this it looks same quality as all those windows turned linux machines.
• ekianjo 10mo ago
  I think if you compare on price alone, yeah there are quality tradeoffs when you purchase a Framework. They don't get everything right, and often an equivalent model from Lenovo or HP is going to feel superior. But... buying Framework is putting a stake into having somewhat open laptops that you can service and upgrade yourself. Lenovo laptops have become less and less reparable (following the MacBook formula) and it's very important a company like Framework continues to exist. At the same time, this kind of user feedback is very important, to help Framework identify the areas where they can or have to improve. Framework is a very reactive company and while hardware takes time, they typically address issues in their next models.
• Tade0 10mo ago
  I don't recommended getting a Framework to anyone who isn't interested specifically in repairability, as it has its quirks and doesn't feel like something which should cost this much. I've broken something in every laptop I've ever owned (+the butterfly keyboard in a company 2019 MBP), so to me it's an important feature. That being said my previous device - a "gaming" laptop - was essentially e-waste two years after purchase because firmware updates stopped despite there being unresolved issues and the official parts store didn't even have basic items like fans, which I had to get from AliExpress instead. Eventually it was the cheapo Intel SSD which did it in, as it slowed to a crawl from being 80% full for too long. I think there's a problem with my 1yo FW16's keyboard as during intense gaming the "D" key temporarily just stops responding, but if it ever fails completely I can order a new keyboard and once it arrives replace it literally within a minute. Other parts take longer, but the general idea is that any sort of malfunction is manageable. > This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't sitting in the bottom right corner of your eye when you look at the display. This is about the power LED and it makes me wonder how dark is the author's environment? Is that healthy?
  • piskov 10mo ago
    The thing about macbooks is: - dead silence - unbelievably good battery life - tank sturdiness - great performance - amazing screen - amazing speakers - god-tier trackpad - repairability in a sense you’ll always find parts (albeit not cheap) and someone to service it — It is basically uncontested in a laptop space. I would only consider windows / linux on a desktop pc
    • Tade0 10mo ago
      > repairability in a sense you’ll always find parts (albeit not cheap) and someone to service it I'm sorry but that is just false. Various organisations assessing repairability consistently give MacBooks poor scores for having soldered components, glue everywhere and complicated assembly. Meanwhile I have one screwdriver for my Framework, which came with the laptop and I can use it to replace any part, including those which are soldered on the MacBook.
      • 10mo ago
• sva_ 10mo ago
  I'm by no means an HP fan, but EliteBooks have pretty great repairability and (unintentionally) great Linux support. Though they are a bit bulky compared to laptops that have been soldered together. So there are definitely more options.
• cedel2k1 10mo ago
  Welcome to Apple, enjoy your M1/M2 :)
• jollymonATX 10mo ago
  Wow had been strongly considering the framework 16 and really glad I read this. Thanks author! That keyboard space jank is not okay.
• ivanb 10mo ago
  What's is the deal with Linux and suspend? It seems only a select few combinations of hardware and software can handle suspend and resume. AMD is commonly praised for their Linux drivers but my all-AMD system crumbles down on power state transitions and especially suspend-resume. I never though words "data", "fabric", "sync" and "flood" can be used together, but now they are a common sight in my logs.
• dmitrygr 10mo ago
  Flex & build issues. Only 8h battery life. Display issues. Suspend issues. Trackpad issues. Speaker issues. Yup, and this is why you jut buy a MacBook. Sorry but there simply is no “option b” for laptop hardware quality.
• galkk 10mo ago
  I love my x1 extreme, I dual boot Linux (i3wm) and windows. I hate macOS with passion. My next laptop will be 16” MacBook Pro, when m5 version will arrive. I looked at reviews, I tried “deep research” with llms… there is just nothing even remotely comparable.
• 0x38B 10mo ago
  My brother has a 16, and it’s been good for him. It is big and chunky, more so with the GPU module; only a few paragraphs into the blog post I felt the author was trying to fit a big square peg in a round hole, and then blaming the square peg for being big and square. That is to say, it’s a big, heavy, expensive laptop. My brother works shifts in a remote location and from what I can tell, the 16 is great for that: you wouldn’t bring a desktop, but once the laptop comes out of the bag, it’s going to stay set up on the desk for the duration of the hitch. He tried leaving the GPU module at home, and found the AMD APU quite capable (he plays Tarkov and BF6, among others). I support Framework’s vision and ethos and am willing to pay a premium for them. My sister uses my 11th gen Intel FW13 for school and is happy with it (only she wishes it was better for gaming), and the AMD 13 I bought was a massive upgrade in gaming capability and speed – I’m able to play Arc Raiders with my brother, one of the few online shooters who’s anti-cheat works on Linux. Another big plus is that FWs play very well with Linux. The Wayland window manager Niri is amazing – so smooth and fast, now with alt-tab in the latest release. And I see there’s Dank Material Shell (1), which bundles things like a bar, launcher, and control center that one normally has to assemble piece by piece in WMs like Niri and Sway (which I used before). 1: https://github.com/AvengeMedia/DankMaterialShell https://github.com/AvengeMedia/DankMaterialShell
• jcnfnffnnf 10mo ago
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• 0xWTF 10mo ago
  The 14" MacBook Pro is unequaled as a daily driver. You can compile some things in a pinch, but let's face it, if you're writing compiled code professionally, someone in management owes your team build resources. Your laptop is your canvas, your easel, your blank page, your sketch pad, and your research library and research notebook. In 2025 and in 2026, your laptop is not for compiling.
• supermatt 10mo ago
  > the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best… but two thousand Euros for this kind of laptop is just absurd. You are literally buying a whole new laptop because the keyboard is broken and too difficult to replace, instead of a €65 euro replacement part with framework. With framework, you are paying a 30% premium for the modularity and upgrade potential. If that’s not important to you then why would you even buy a framework laptop?
• deleted 10mo ago
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• asno3030 10mo ago
  I'm okay with spending 1000 on a screen and chassis, under the impression I upgrade the computer every 2 years. Unfortunately when a mainboard cost $1000, it's cheaper to buy a new machine every 2 years. This shouldn't be the case... Look at the chinese producing MoDT boards with full IO for $300 (likely the same shops who work with framework. I like framework in the sense that I can ship of thesues my laptop the same way I can with a desktop, but at the end of the day, the premium is outrageous. If third parties start making framework compatible boards I'll buy into the ecosystem.
  • bronson 10mo ago
    You can get a 7040 series Ryzen mainboard for $380. https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?v=FRANGV0005 https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?... So I don't understand your $1000 complaint ... that's the most expensive mainboard they offer. You think Framework shouldn't offer the high end stuff?
• wiz21c 10mo ago
  Maybe the FrameWork company wants to build something out of the clutches of proprietary software and big corp hardware. And that's fine. Since they don't have the volumes to make enough money they may have to charge more per laptop, which is fine. But if they want to have me as a customer on these core values (which I'm pretty much aligned with), then they need an additional core value: they need to convince me their higher price is justified. So I want transparency on the way they use my money (and the one of their other customers). Without that, I'm left wondering if it is not some "green washing". IOW I'm sure Apple is expensive because it's luxury, I'm sure other laptops are not expensive because they're cheap/sold by millions. But FrameWork, I don't know why their expensive. And repairability doesn't count, design for repairability doesn't make things inherently more expensive I guess.
• mrheosuper 10mo ago
  I used to want a FW laptop. The idea is sound, instead of throwing the whole computer away when upgrading, just upgrade what needed(CPU, RAM, etc) But the execution is, not good. The cost of new Motherboard is sometime as expensive as the new machine that has similar spec. I understand FW does not have economy of scale like Lenovo or Dell, but, the cost of upgrading is deal breaker to me.
• StrauXX 10mo ago
  I won a max spec Framework 13 at a hacking tournament a few months ago and use it as my daily driver now. I'm very happy with it. The 13 is much more clean than the 16. Framework 16 still feels like a bit of a beta product. That being said, I probably would have gone with a Thinkpad if it had been my own money. The peicing is just really steep.
• mindcrash 10mo ago
  People really should stop pretending that you're getting a Macbook out of a Framework. You're not. You're getting a PC laptop with all the advantages of a self-build PC desktop. When you compare apples to apples (lol) - PCs to PCs - the current gen higher end Framework 13 and 16 are beasts. They contain the fastest mobile AMD chips on the market today, the Ryzen AI HX 370 aka "Strix Point". The only thing faster than that is the Ryzen AI Max+ 395 aka "Strix Halo", which would probably have some issues in a laptop with this size if you want to make full use of it because of thermals. Just look at the kind of cooler which sits on the mainboard of Framework Desktop (which does contain the AI Max+ 395) to get an idea what I am talking about. You can choose between no discrete GPU, AMD RX7700S or NVIDIA 5070M; or just purchase them all and swap them around if you want to. (and who knows what dGPU will be for sale in the (near) future... and all it takes for them is to make that thing fit into the Expansion Shell) Due to the included AMD mainboard you get USB4 instead of Thunderbolt 4, which means little to no protocol overhead when you hook up a EGPU and can run a docked 5070Ti or 9070XT at ~100fps @ 1440p. You get up to six (on the 16) expansion bays which enable you to swap external ports to any configuration you like. They even have created 2 external SSDs you can slot in on these ports and blend in with the laptop (which come in sizes of 256G and 1T), and released everything required to allow people in the community to create their own ports as open source. And I could rave on and on... But again: Is it a Apple quality laptop? No. Is it a beast of a PC laptop? Yes. PS: If you think Lenovo is the Apple of the PC world due to the fact that they could purchase some branding and design from IBM back in the day you are in for a very nasty surprise. I have all the hands on experience with a so called "premium" Thinkpad worth a pretty cool 3500 EUR back then to write this.
  • TazeTSchnitzel 10mo ago
    The Framework Laptop 16 has worse performance than other laptops that have the same chips, due to thermal and power constraints. Upgrading to the fastest option Framework sells might not have much value when the power budget for it is so low.
    • mindcrash 10mo ago
      PC Magazine thinks otherwise: https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/framework-laptop-16-2025 https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/framework-laptop-16-2025 I quote: "A DIY Desktop Replacement Dream Machine" It also outperformed the Asus Zenbook S 16 in their benchmarks, which also has a HX 370 SoC. The only thing they didnt like was the battery.
• pmdr 10mo ago
  This summer I bought and returned a FW 13, the newer AMD variety. Specs and performance were top notch, albeit a bit pricey I'd say (I brought my own 96GB of RAM and 2TB NVMe and the laptop was still 2200 EUR). Tinkered with it for a few days, tried Windows 11. The Mediatek Wifi card was horrible and it took a few hours of driver hunting to finally get it working in a stable fashion. Reading the FW subreddit, a lot of said 'just drop in an Intel wifi card instead.' Well, yeah, that would surely have worked, but, again, I had already paid a lot for the machine itself. Battery life was subpar for it to be of much use as a laptop, but I didn't really mind. The screen was quite okay. But what really put me off was how HOT and, consequently, LOUD it would get by merely watching YouTube at 1080p. Hot means really uncomfortable to touch and definitely not something you'd want sitting on your lap. People heard the fan from another room more than 10 meters away. That's when I decided that the little fan inside it would never be enough. With proper cooling, it would've been great as a workstation, though not as laptop meant to be carried. tl;dr FW has a lot to work on noise, cooling and battery life. I don't suppose there will ever be a huge market willing to overlook these aspects just for the sake of repairability.
• rsynnott 10mo ago
  Surprised how quickly the Thinkpad died; they used to pretty much last forever.
• chaostheory 10mo ago
  It’s a detailed review with annoying conclusions. While it has improved a lot over the years, the core issue is that Linux still doesn’t work well on laptops compared to other OS’s. 99.99% of the time you’re not going to get a “premium” laptop running Linux for this reason The other reason, he’s not getting a “premium” experience is that he’s buying a laptop built for repairability and upgradability. You’re going to have a lot of tradeoffs for that. IMO the only way to have a “premium” laptop experience with Linux, is to buy a Mac and run Linux in either a container or VM. It’s an understatement to say that the author is not being realistic.
• moribvndvs 10mo ago
  As a reader interested in Framework and looking for honest feedback in the wild, this was a really frustrating blog entry. It feels like at every turn you’re coming up with conflicting requirements and impossible demands that even your X1 doesn’t meet. For example: regarding the MacBook, the worry about long term support for Asahi is understandable, but one of your main criticisms is that it has the same battery life as other Linux laptops? You wanted a bigger, repairable laptop and didn’t expect it to be larger or heavier? You preferred the slightly more washed out red of your old laptop, but didn’t tell us whether you could fix it with a display setting or why having more vibrant colors or having to adjust display settings is a bad thing for your use case? Have you considered just turning on a light rather than working in a dark room (please turn on a light, I destroyed my eyesight working like that)? I’m devastated to read you found the battery life simply par and that it used a little bit of electricity after suspend for 8 hours like every other laptop on the market, and that you were able to turn the power led off but not in your preferred location. At the end of the day, you’re not required to like a thing for any reason you see fit, but I very much hope you figure out what you actually need and that such a device actually exists on this planet before you purchase another one.
• pastor_williams 10mo ago
  I bought a framework 16 shortly after it came out. My one gripe is around the track pad and the modules on either side of it. The fit there is not great. I really wish they would sell a full width track pad piece because the seams are imperfect. That said after the first month it hasn't bothered me. Definitely something I would change but not something that I notice or am inconvenienced by in daily use.
• kinow 10mo ago
  I am quite happy with my AMD 13 laptop. It replaced my Thinkpad T530 after its ~10 years of service. So far, nearly one year after buying it, everything works well. Ubuntu, Docker containers, clion+pycharm, sometimes Blender and other apps. Plus several tabs on Firefox. Camera and audio are better than my old thinkpad, so i have nothing to complain about yet. There were issues like configuring Linux (extra monitor, logitech mouse, tablet, some software) but I found everything on Framework forums or googling a bit.
• nathias 10mo ago
  I went for a similar upgrade from X1 Carbon. I don't undestand why OP would compare the weight of a 16 to carbon which is closer to framework 13 (which I bought). For me on Arch it's working great and has none of the issues he mentions, its the best laptop I ever owned. I bought one because the Carbon started decomposing fairly quickly (headphone jack, usb c port, keys) and think the modularity is a really great feature.
• askonomm 10mo ago
  I have a Framework 16, and as for it being a Linux machine I couldn't be happier with it. I still daily drive my MacBook Pro 16 instead, because it's just a more polished, more performant (and better battery life) machine, but still, I also really like my Framework 16. I eagerly await the time when Linux desktops reach the level of polish I'd like to have, and I feel like that isn't that far away anymore.
• 1970-01-01 10mo ago
  The hidden story is the depth of work required to replace a keyboard on a newer Lenovo. The amount of work is absurd. Easily an hour or two for the casual owner plus use of multiple tools. Don't blame the author for giving up on it. https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+6th+Gen+Keyboard+Replacement/154084 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Lenovo+ThinkPad+X1+Carbon+6th+G... "Step 26: Remove the seventy-two 0.5mm screws holding keyboard in place."
• cassepipe 10mo ago
  Contra the author, the extra vertical space you gain with the 3:2 ratio on the 13' version makes up for the small form factor, especially it makes you realize that what you are often missing on a laptop is extra vertical space. Exactly, this is why he should have got the 13' version. Sometimes you feel you want something "just slightly larger" (sic) than 14' but if you are not ready to pay the price for it, what's I am pretty the issue comes from people wanting to work on two windows side-by-side but for that to be comfortable you really need at least 16' if not 17' The way I go around this issue is that instead of having a subpar side-by-side windows experience I just optimized for fast window switching: I just have mod + j/k mapped in my windows manager (can't do that in Gnome ofc) and I can just put the two window in their own workspace so that it's only cycling through those two if needed My main gripe with the framework 13' is that it doesn't feel sturdy for some reason. Don't get me wrong, it is not flimsy either but if you get your hands or a macbook or even some other laptop in the same price range of the fw, it will feel better. I thing it has to do with the partly recycled aluminum, it's a material that's just not as hard as it seems. On the other hand not having to throw out your laptop because you stupidly broke the screen is a great feeling.
• rhodey 10mo ago
  I own 2 framework 13 laptops at this time and repairability aside I am also just happy to support a new PC hardware co.
• wappieslurkz 10mo ago
  Apple could sell so many Macs to Linux users looking for decent machines once they'd open up the hardware just a bit...
• etempleton 10mo ago
  Beyond Apple, I think the state of laptop quality is absolutely abysmal. I haven’t tried Framework, but it is disappointing to hear their products suffer many of the same issues as other PC builders. I guess there just isn’t a market.
• QuiEgo 10mo ago
  Just get a linux desktop and the cheapest MacBook Air and remote into Linux from the Mac when you need to go portable. There's the world as you want it to be, and the world as it is. The laptop the author wants just doesn't exist.
• SergeAx 10mo ago
  My desktop PC has been constantly evolving for about 15 years now, literally the ship of Theseus. Currently, following the latest upgrade in September, it's an absolute powerhouse. During the same time, I burned through four laptops (for travel purposes), all of which were mostly weak, with a maximum of 16 GB RAM, no real GPUs, and 14"-15" screens, expensive, and had poor resale value. My next travel computer will be Framework 16.
• cxplay 10mo ago
  I'm currently in China, pondering whether Framework's approach to promoting repairability is feasible locally. I can easily purchase parts for nearly any retail laptop (yes, nearly any) on online shopping sites, sometimes even including the motherboard. Repairing electronic hardware isn't easy for non-professionals, but Framework's parts aren't just "parts" anymore—they're modules designed for easy repair. They clearly aren't manufactured and sold as individual components. This reminds me of LG's modular phones. For a time, their market lifecycle was so short that some of LG's premium modules ended up circulating at prices higher than the devices themselves.
• philo_sophia 10mo ago
  I don't find framework appealing for upgradability, but I do think it's great for repairability. Being able to extend the life of a machine easily by replacing a cracked screen or degraded battery is so much better than going to the fruit store and being upsold a new machine and spending more. Obviously you pay extra in upfront costs and sacrifice build quality for a framework. Also I think framework will excel in the SMB market where companies may have diverse requirements for different employees. Some just need a machine for email/browser and others for dev or video editing. But they can share parts, and upgrading a dev machine might have the benefit of upgrading other employees machines with the extra parts.
• throwaway1413 10mo ago
  People need to realize, Framework laptops are atrociously overpriced, terrible in terms of specs, loud, unwieldy, and not robust. It's a bad company that just rides on being in vogue with the tech crowd who see the word "repairability" and go nuts over it. for 2k euros the author could have gotten a maxed out 16 inch m5 pro with: 10-Core CPU 10-Core GPU 24GB Unified Memory 1TB SSD Storage This setup is superior to framework in basically every conceivable way (better power efficiency, more ram, more storage, better GPU, better multithreading, better single thread perf, more durable, cheaper). If you are buying a framework you might as well set 300$ on fire and buy a macbook instead.
• desipenguin 10mo ago
  If bad keys are the only problem with X1, why not buy external/wireless keyboard ?
• tracker1 10mo ago
  I think what would be my biggest issue with the Framework 16 is mentioned... the spacers next to the touchpad... I really wish they'd offer a standard single-deck option for the touchpad that didn't have spacer/relocation options at all. The speakers would also be something I would regularly notice. I'd probably go for the 13" myself... hardware wise, IMO Apple is really hard to beat all around. For what you interact with, it's absolutely the best model(s) around... the air and pro are both really good and solid. Displays, keyboard, touchpads, speakers are all well above average, and I don't think I've seen a combination I feel is better all around... that said, I'm less inclined to want to lock myself in. I'm going to use my M1 air until it dies, but I don't think I'll ever buy Apple hardware again though.
• rldjbpin 10mo ago
  the core argument boils down to value proposition purely from an end user who does not care about the laptop's usp. as a fairphone of laptops, it still seems like a much better deal imho. the core performance is not much worse than the competition. the user-facing hardware, while not as good as the best, it is quite in the same ballpark as other windows or linux laptops. also a lot of quirks are starting to be solved by the community, which seems to be in a healthy state. the pixels and macbooks have enjoyed this in the past, despite their own quirks mainly due to network effects. plus rarely one could opt out parts not needed while ordering the laptop.