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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

580 points by kvam 1y ago

basisword 1y ago
An interesting choice. It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong - I wonder if at a certain age this instinct diminishes making a choice like his easier?
- amelius 1y ago
  > It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong For physical illnesses.
- masklinn 1y ago
  > I wonder if at a certain age this instinct diminishes making a choice like his easier? It's less likely to be "a certain age" and more surrounding factors: if most of your friends have passed and you don't have much chance to do things that interest you because you could pass at any moment yourself there comes a point where life has limited worth. Essentially, hope runs out, and when it's run out entirely you either wait for death, or ... don't wait. > It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong Sometimes. Chronic illnesses are a massive contributing factor to suicide rates for instance: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(22)00258-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7...
- fjfaase 1y ago
  If you have (grand)children, an important reason to wanting to stay alive is often not the fear of dying, but wanting to be there for them and fearing the grief they will endure if you are gone.
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    My grandparents stuck around too long, so I have the opposite fear of burdening my descendants with having to (if not legally, then via social pressure) spend too much time, money, and energy caring for me.
    - exasperaited 1y ago
      There’s a solution to this you can start on right now: structure your life and experiences such that you become an awesome grandparent with hilarious stories, humility and appeal to your grandchildren. I probably won’t ever meet my grandchildren if there are any, because I am over fifty and single; I probably will never be a parent. So I will have to go a lot sooner if I am not to be a burden on society. But if you think you are going to be a grandparent, you can work on being an irreplaceable and useful one.
      - lotsofpulp 1y ago
        I am referring to being so old that you are dependent on others everyday such that the caregivers cannot go on vacation. One set of my grandparents both lived to 100, and they had a 15 year age gap, so that was the first 30 years of my life that my parents sacrificed time with their kids, professional life, and personal life. Very few people are independent after age 80, and a miniscule amount after 90.
    - basisword 1y ago
      I think it would be valuable to get your parents opinion on whether the burden was worth it or not. Or, unfortunately, to see if your opinion changes if you have to bear the burden of your parents in the future. It's easy to assume the burden isn't worth it when we have a bit more distance (e.g. grandparents) but I think people are more open to it than we realise - even if it comes with immense amounts of stress. Saying that I think it varies person to person. Often in families you have people who are willing to carry the burden and others who aren't and that brings even more stress and disagreement to the situation.
      - lotsofpulp 1y ago
- raffael_de 1y ago
  Maybe at a certain age other instincts strengthen making a choice like this easier? We all have to come to terms. And if you are older than 70 then it is just a fact that every day can be your last without any accident or noteworthy medical complication. And the guy has been probably thinking about this fast and slow for at least two decades then.
- cm2012 1y ago
  You get so tired
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    This.
lordnacho 1y ago
I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he wanted to cook. I told him "this is pink all over, you have to cook it more". He got angry. I understood he'd become like this to everyone. He pissed off everyone on his street, and all police, medical and social workers sent to help him. The disease made him blow up every relationship he had with anyone that he didn't know well, like me and a couple of colleagues. He got found in his house, having left the gas on, endangering the whole street. He ended up in a care home, not knowing who he was, or who I was. If he'd been run over by a car, or died of a heart attack at the age of 80, people he knew would remember him as that nice old guy who had a dog and made a lot of art, and was friendly to everyone. Instead he was that 83 year old guy who pissed off everyone, nearly blew up the neighbourhood, and drove like a maniac. You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.
- Freak_NL 1y ago
  It doesn't seem pleasant for the person themself either. Constant frustration, gaps in your memory growing ever larger, disorientation, loss — periodically augmented by brief flickers of recollection of what you used to be — and yet no one can legally end your misery, because you can likely no longer unequivocally consent to euthanasia or assisted suicide, even if you explicitly signed a declaration that you did not want to end up like this — legally, the current husk of your former self must consent, and it can't.
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    It’s still absurd despite what you say that we are implying that we should euthanize another human because they have become difficult to manage due to illness. Where do we draw the line?
    - 1y ago
simplegeek 1y ago
> And even at the end, when asked what he would like to do, he said: "I would like to learn something." Don't have an exact word to describe how I feel after reading above. Find it beautiful that such an accomplished person wanted to learn something even towards the end of his life.
SeanAnderson 1y ago
Daniel wrote one of my favorite books, Thinking: Fast and Slow (https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374275637/ https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp...). If you haven't read it, and you're into economics, behavioral psychology, and thinking about thinking then I'd highly recommend it. The first half of the book is especially compelling. You will be missed! Sad to hear he passed, but glad he was able to go out on his own terms.
- kqr 1y ago
  His next big book, Noise, is possibly even better.
  - xpe 1y ago
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    - xpe 1y ago
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    - bogeholm 1y ago
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      - xpe 1y ago
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        mkagenius 1y ago
        I literally thought some unpublished book. But you shouldn't have doubled down on 'next'. Your first para was enough.
        xpe 1y ago
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xpe 1y ago
Related, a 5 page page PDF, freely downloadable: Should assisted dying be legalised? Philosophy, Ethics, and Humanities in Medicine volume 9, Article number: 3 (2014) Thomas D G Frost, Devan Sinha & Barnabas J Gilbert https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341-9-3 https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341... Abstract When an individual facing intractable pain is given an estimate of a few months to live, does hastening death become a viable and legitimate alternative for willing patients? Has the time come for physicians to do away with the traditional notion of healthcare as maintaining or improving physical and mental health, and instead accept their own limitations by facilitating death when requested? The Universities of Oxford and Cambridge held the 2013 Varsity Medical Debate on the motion “This House Would Legalise Assisted Dying”. This article summarises the key arguments developed over the course of the debate. We will explore how assisted dying can affect both the patient and doctor; the nature of consent and limits of autonomy; the effects on society; the viability of a proposed model; and, perhaps most importantly, the potential need for the practice within our current medico-legal framework.
- xpe 1y ago
  A quote from the above: > It is difficult to reconcile that citizens may have the right to do almost anything to and with their own bodies– from participating in extreme sports to having elective plastic surgery– yet a terminal patient cannot choose to avoid experiencing additional months of discomfort or loss of dignity in their final months of life.
  - masklinn 1y ago
    One issue I think about a fair bit is that without legal assisted suicide aside from all the usual issues with unassisted suicide you need to end things even earlier to make sure you do it while still physically capable: with age the risk of physical debilitation increases sharply, a bad fall or a small stroke will see you in the hospital or incapable of moving an arm. Which is on top of the risks of mental debilitation taking away your right to self determination (through simple incompetence).
decremental 1y ago
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lionkor 1y ago
> "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either."
- basisword 1y ago
  He had to know it would be. I wonder if that was maybe an attempt to say this is completely personal and I'm not trying to encourage others to do the same or suggest it is the right thing for everyone to do?
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  While I understand him, public personalities cannot really demand to avoid attention on such an existential topic.
  - dooglius 1y ago
    The email was a "personal message to close friends", I think it's a reasonable request for him to ask them not to share the information.
  - ocrow 1y ago
    They can ask. We're the ones choosing to ignore his wish.
- amelius 1y ago
  Not even in the abstract?
cladopa 1y ago
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- rmccue 1y ago
  This always comes up with this prize, but it’s generally considered one of the Nobel prizes, although it’s not one of the original prizes. Your opinion on whether it should count is up to you, but to call it media manipulation is reading a lot of malice into it.
  - stackskipton 1y ago
    Argument is that economists knew exactly what would happen when they got linked with Nobel Prizes and help solidify economics as hard science like physics, medicine or math in eyes of the public. Begin debate around how scientific is some economics.
    - croes 1y ago
      Is math considered a science?
      - stackskipton 1y ago
        Yes? You can form hypothesis and prove it or not.
        croes 1y ago
        But science is based on empirical methods. Math isn’t empirical. You don’t do experiments in maths do gain knowledge. It’s not a natural science and not a social science so that leaves formal science but math in a requirement for formal science. Math can’t be its own requirement so it’s not a formal science either.
- tomschwiha 1y ago
  That sounds a bit harsh - probably more simplification than manipulation.
anilgulecha 1y ago
I'm part of the Jain community in Bangalore, and the version of this in society exists, called Sallekhna [1], a tradition that's developed over millennia, and this is venerated and celebrated. The philosophical underpinning is giving up of materialness. The practicality of the 5 instances that I witnessed over the past year - typical terminal individuals choose this. They pass away surrounded by loved ones (they typically medicate for any pain, and the body starts shutting down when food and water stops). This is observed with somberness, but celebrated as very positive act. When someone starts this process, it's a unique experience speaking with them, as there's usually nothing that comes up, and the moment does not really lend itself to small talk :) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallekhana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallekhana
- mosura 1y ago
  How long does this actually take?
  - masklinn 1y ago
    Hard fast (e.g. hunger strikes) usually take about 2 months to kill a healthy adult. On the one hand according to the wiki this is more progressive removing food by degrees which would make the process a lot longer. On the other hand being a mostly ascetic practice I'd assume it's done by people who have a lot less reserves (body fat and muscle) which would shorten the process significantly (the 207kg Angus Barbieri famously fasted continuously for 382 days[0] breaking his fast at 82kg, although he supplemented his liquids — water, tea, and coffee — with vitamins, electrolytes, and yeast extract, the latter for essential amino acids). [0]: technically he was put on a recovery diet of salting then sugaring his water for 10 days, so ate no solid food for 392 days, breaking his fast with a boiled egg and a slice of buttered bread
    - nemo1618 1y ago
      Liquids are also removed (gradually). For someone already in weakened condition, I would be surprised if the process took longer than two weeks.
sarchertech 1y ago
So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come see us last year. I’m very wary of making it legal for doctors to euthanize an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid an eventual decline. It’s relatively common for families to push people into nursing homes, but in this case there’s an even stronger direct financial incentive. I don’t trust the system to adequately prevent this.
- lblume 1y ago
  I agree with your legal assessment and still think of the case as very interesting. The article explicitly talks about how any such decision could have only been premature, for the slow cognitive decline is typically only noticed when it is too late, and because the change is continuous, there can be no good commitment to "I no longer consider this life worthwhile once condition X is no longer satisfied".
- 1dom 1y ago
  > If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. Counter-anecdote, my partners Granddad is 93. Age 90, we said the same as you. Now he's an old, rude, obnoxious liability - he's still great, and I don't hold it against him, he's earned the right. But I've never known anyone naturally age and die without losing their ability to be civil in some way towards the end. From the article: > Kahneman knew that many would see his decision as premature. But that was exactly what he intended, he wrote: If you wait until a life is "obviously no longer worth living", it is already too late. I personally wish my partners final memories of her Granddad were him at 90, and not at 93. I've known for a good 5 - 10 years I will take the same route as Kahneman. I feel the desire to stay alive long enough to be a liability for yourself and those around you is a decision motivated by ego and fear, rather than compassion or logic.
mcdonje 1y ago
The sad demise of Robin Williams made me a believer of assisted suicide. The option to go out with dignity should be available to everyone. That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. That needs to be solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't do it. There is a cost reduction incentive, though, which is why it happens. Costs can be reduced for abled people by convincing them to exercise and eat more fiber, so the same pressure can do good instead of evil. At some point we have to decide to care about people.
- sarchertech 1y ago
  That’s the problem. If there’s a financial incentive people will find way to push it. That’s my biggest concern about assisted suicide for an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid the inevitable decline (as in this case). There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this. The only way I can see to remove that would be to require that your estate can’t go to anyone who potentially has influence over you in the case of assisted suicide for with no terminal illness.
  - hypeatei 1y ago
    > There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this What financial incentives are there in killing someone?
    - sarchertech 1y ago
      Inheritance.
      - hypeatei 1y ago
        So... something you're entitled to regardless of how they die? I don't see why, in this hypothetical, a person would spend energy encouraging assisted suicide when they'll get inheritance eventually anyway. Am I missing something?
Simulacra 1y ago
Ever since I watched my father waste away in agony and die in a veterans home, it has become my greatest fear in life to suffer until the bitter end. I choose euthanasia because I don't want to put my family through that, and the last thing I want to do, if you'll pardon me, is to waste away in my own urine and feces in what will likely be a sub optimal care situation.
- cogman10 1y ago
  Same with my grandmother that had dementia. You can get into a state of living death where the brain is mush and who you were is completely destroyed. That's hell for the family. I saw my grandmother forget her daughter (my mother) it was heartbreaking. Seeing my mom realize her mom forgot everything about their life together was just painful. It was just a sad existence to observe as well. Grandma lived for quiet a while with dementia and spent years trying to return to her childhood home. We'd constantly have to trick her into accepting help from us "strangers". Re-convincing her to come inside that these "strangers" wouldn't mind having her for a bit. Watching her read over the same page of a book for hours on end. That's not an existence I want for myself or my family.
bramhaag 1y ago
I think it's beautiful he got to go out on his own terms, when he felt it was the right time to do so. I'm often reminded about a case in my own country: a young person had decided it was time to end her life after struggling for many years, without a sign of improvement. She was denied the right to euthanasia. After multiple failed suicide attempts, she went for the nuclear option and jumped in front of a train. Everyone deserves to die in a dignified and humane way, not in multiple pieces or with a mind deteriorated beyond recognition. Forcing prolonged suffering is unnecessarily cruel. I wish more countries were as progressive with euthenasia as Switzerland.
- gield 1y ago
  Coincidentally, today there was an article in a Belgian newspaper about a 25-year-old woman who will undergo euthanasia in a few weeks due to severe psychological suffering with no prospect of improvement. After years of suffering and 40 failed suicide attempts, I indeed think it's much more dignified to have euthanasia as an option. Euthanasia has some strict rules in Belgium, especially for cases involving psychological suffering. In 2014, the age restriction was dropped (except for psychological suffering). Since then, 6 minors have received euthanasia.
em500 1y ago
I'm surprised and fascinated that this is apparently legal in Switzerland. The Netherlands, famous for allowing assisted suicide, has pretty strict criteria for this[1]. In particular, the physician must "be satisfied that the patient’s suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of improvement", which from this article sounds far from the case here. [1] https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/is-euthanasia-allowed https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/is-euthanasia-al...
- antegamisou 1y ago
  Euthanasia in Switzerland ^ has been a notorious profitable practice for years, compared to the Netherlands where it's almost exclusively practiced on those with terminal debilitating disease. ^ Yes, it's "illegal" but it's effectively nulled if the means to it are made legal.
  - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
    It is illegal to profit from assisted suicide in Switzerland. All organizations that are involved in assisted suicide are nonprofits. Every assisted suicide is then investigated by the police to ensure no profit motives exist.
    - antegamisou 1y ago
      Why does one have to pay an extraordinary amount for it then? Does all money go to the facilities and the staff? (which mind you by law isn't mandated to consist of physicians) Again: Yes, it's "illegal" but it's effectively nulled if the means to it are made legal.
      - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
        > Why does one have to pay an extraordinary amount for it then? I don't know what you mean by "an extraordinary amount." It's about $10,000, which covers multiple consultations, medical assessments, interactions with the government, the nonprofit's operational costs, and so on.
Aerbil313 1y ago
Now this is hilariously non-ironic. The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing “increasing metal lapses”, presumably in order to not ever live irrationally.
- xpe 1y ago
  > Now this is ironic. Ironic is the opposite of what you mean, don't you think? By your explanation, Kahneman acted according to his life's work. > The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing “increasing metal lapses”, presumably in order to not ever live irrationally. That was possibly part of his motivation. But also the pain, suffering (goes broader than physical pain), confusion, and cost -- to him and his family.
  - Aerbil313 1y ago
    Thanks, I had a mental lapse - fixed it.
poszlem 1y ago
I’m trying to figure out why this feels so unsettling to me. I can understand wanting to end one’s life because of unbearable pain or illness, but something about this just feels wrong.
- locallost 1y ago
  It's not unsettling for me, but I have a similar feeling. On the other hand, maybe he did have a medical issue, just chose not to disclose it. In any case it is his choice, as is the wish not to discuss it. I think this will be difficult to enforce, but I will personally respect it.
bapak 1y ago
More of this, please. What is the point of living your last 10 years of life bed ridden? This is how I will go.
- arresin 1y ago
  You will have an eternity to be dead. I want every second. Even if it’s painful. I am still alive.
  - raffael_de 1y ago
    Are you sure you understand how painful pain can be? Especially when you experience it daily and there is no hope for recovery?
    - arresin 1y ago
      I think you underestimate the length of eternity.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
  - wiseowise 1y ago
    How do you know if someone is anti-assisted suicide or anti-abortion? They'll tell you, whenever you want to do anything with your own body.
    - arresin 1y ago
      We’re all connected. What you do with your body has a huge number of ripple effects. Obviously. So yeah, other people get a say.
      - wiseowise 1y ago
        That’s where you’re wrong. Nobody has a say what you do with your body.
gcanyon 1y ago
I 100% understand his rationale, and in the same position I'd probably do the same -- "probably" because this is one of those things you can't possibly predict in advance.
afh1 1y ago
There's a Star Trek episode with this exact plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_a_Life_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_a_Life_(Star_Trek:_The_Ne...
throwpoaster 1y ago
Assisted suicide is not how a healthy society should respond to serious mental health conditions.
- wiseowise 1y ago
  The guy chose to quit on his own terms, healthy society shouldn't have a say in it.
7e 1y ago
Cryonic preservation is assisted suicide but with a small bonus chance of living forever. Seems preferable.
- a022311 1y ago
  Unless the situation ends up like in https://xkcd.com/989/ https://xkcd.com/989/
- jacquesm 1y ago
  It's a scam.
Noaidi 1y ago
To me, Daniel Kahneman humiliated himself by choosing suicide (if he was in a sound state of mind to make that decision). He was a scared, little old man. He made an assumption that his life was "obviously no longer worth living", how little he thought of life is pathetic. Now he could have been depressed after his wife died and was just lying to himself that this was his own, autonomous, decision. Depression can do that to you, it can make you think suicide is the most rational decision.
_ttg 1y ago
I was curious about how he actually died and found an [1] article describing it: > Kahneman used the services of Pegasos in the village of Roderis in Nunningen, Switzerland. In the death room with a view over green hills, wearing a suit and tie, he lay on the bed and turned on an infusion of sodium pentobarbital himself. A companion held his hand and told him they were holding it on behalf of his loved ones. Kahneman's last words were "I feel their love." [1]: https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/suizidhilfe-weltstar-stirbt-in-der-schweiz-die-bewegende-geschichte-eines-psychologen-der-unser-denken-veraendern-wollte-ld.2750085 https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/suizidhilfe-weltstar-...
- Kailhus 1y ago
  This hit me harder than I thought it would.
- crossroadsguy 1y ago
  Is this https://pegasos-association.com https://pegasos-association.com the one? > Pegasos, a non-profit based in Basel, Switzerland, believes that it is the human right of every rational adult of sound mind, regardless of state of health, to choose the manner and timing of their death. I found this bit "regardless of state" really interesting. I wonder what their views would be for someone who wouldn't have a family and nothing much to do or explore after a certain age? Does it matter what nationality they are from? What if someone's reason is - they had savings and now they have run out of it and area already 55-60 or more and have no intention or plan to work anymore and don't want to go through the struggle of life? (Of course they would have had paid the euthanasia fees) How does it all happen?
  - joomla199 1y ago
    Well they did say “rational adult of sound mind”, and “rational” there easily disqualifies every human being on the planet, with all our evolved biases, heuristics, and common predictable misjudgments. I imagine its criteria applied arbitrarily.
    - 1y ago
a022311 1y ago
Not going to express an opinion, I'll just leave this except from the Hippocratic Oath [1], which reflects society's primary beliefs on this topic approximately up until the 19th century: > οὐ δώσω δὲ οὐδὲ φάρμακον οὐδενὶ αἰτηθεὶς θανάσιμον, οὐδὲ ὑφηγήσομαι συμβουλίην τοιήνδε In English: > Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
- huhtenberg 1y ago
  That's likely to be a consequence of prevailing religious norms of the time.
- magicmicah85 1y ago
  The modern hippocratic oath has no mention of poisons, also doesn't require the oath to be sworn before the gods of the pantheon. Up until the 19th century, physicians didn't believe in germs either. Attitudes change with the knowledge we accumulate.
  - account42 1y ago
    Change doesn't inherently mean better.
lazyfanatic42 1y ago
Took care of someone with Alzheimers for six years until they passed away. No one should have to exist like that, for that long. A biological shell simply of automatic inputs and outputs. Robin Williams had to hang himself. There should be easy medical options in the US.
- ocrow 1y ago
  I think Alzheimer's is a particularly difficult case. Before diagnosis, many of us imagine that we wouldn't want to exist in a highly deteriorated state with no ability to care for ourselves. But as you start to decline, you still feel like yourself, just a very forgetful version of yourself. On which day do you decide that what remains of your mind isn't enough to make your available future days better than no future days? The instinct for self preservation is strong. Knowing what will come requires foresight and clarity. You may lose the capacity for informed decision making before the point where it's clear that there's not much to live for. Many of us lack the insight that Kahneman perhaps had that in order to take control of the end you may need to leave some good days on the table.
- bsimpson 1y ago
  Robin Williams' end was even more grim than that sentence lets on. Horrible to think of such a loved man going out is such a desparate way.
deleted 1y ago
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willmadden 1y ago
For every Daniel Kahneman case, there's a case where the victim doesn't give consent, is coerced, or pressured from caregivers. It always rapidly expands from terminal illness to mental illness or non-terminal conditions. There's also weak oversight and misaligned profit motives. The examples in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, and Oregon are shocking.
- djaboss 1y ago
  Please provide shocking examples, especially for Switzerland. I'm eager to learn about real arguments from the other side.
  - willmadden 1y ago
    Netherlands: Aurelia Brouwers, 29, with depression and autism (non-terminal), euthanized in 2018; critics cite expansion to mental illness and potential coercion risks. Switzerland: 8% of assisted deaths involve mental disorders like severe depression; cases show weak oversight, allowing non-terminal approvals despite coercion concerns. Canada: 2022 Veterans Affairs cases: Caseworkers offered MAiD to 4+ veterans in poverty seeking benefits, indicating systemic coercion and cost-saving motives. Oregon: Kate Cheney, 85, with early dementia (mental/non-terminal elements), approved 1999 amid daughter pressure suspicions; evaluations noted influence but oversight permitted despite weak safeguards.
- gield 1y ago
  Can you please list some of those examples? You didn't mention Belgium so I'm pleased to hear that Belgium is doing well according to you (4000 cases of euthanasia per year of which 80 are for psychological suffering, 1 child per year).
  - willmadden 1y ago
    Don't put words in my mouth. Disingenuous. Belgium: Tine Nys, 38, autism/depression (non-terminal), euthanized 2010; rushed procedure amid family presence, weak oversight, sisters allege undue pressure and unmet incurable criteria. Belgium: Frank Van Den Bleeken, prisoner with untreated psychiatric disorder, requested 2014; non-terminal suffering from inadequate care, systemic pressure via prison failures, oversight gaps. Belgium: Nathalie Huygens, 50s, trauma-induced mental illness, approved 2022; financial barriers to treatment raise coercion concerns, questions on incurability oversight.
AndrewKemendo 1y ago
”Daniel Kahneman did not want to make a statement or start a debate. "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either."” Seems like we should close this thread to honor these wishes
sl-1 1y ago
RIP, his work made a huge impression on me. And I admire the dignity to go when one chooses. I guess we are all Dying, Fast and Slow.
mark_l_watson 1y ago
Good account of his reasoning. Off topic, but my Dad’s last girlfriend before he died two years ago was a co-founder of the Hemlock Society/International Right To Die organization - huge effort to get assisted suicide made legal in different tax jurisdictions around the world and different states in the US.
circlefavshape 1y ago
My dad is in the early stages of Alzheimer's and it's made me think of what I'll do if I find myself in the same situation Assisted suicide sounds like a fine option until you think of its impact on your loved ones. Imagining putting my wife and kids through my deciding to die, and the process of them bringing me to the place where it happens - or imagining one of them doing the same thing - just fills me with horror
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  Death comes for us all. It’s okay to cultivate emotional fortitude to die on own terms, at the place and time of our choosing, with grace. Would you rather them remember you as a shell of who you were, long dead mentally while the body continues on? Death is a part of life we cannot avoid, nor should we. > If you wait until a life is "obviously no longer worth living", it is already too late —- Kahneman Live your life in a way that it is worth living until you no longer can, I suppose. To exist is hard, do your best.
- raw_anon_1111 1y ago
  Death happens to all of us. I’m 51 and as far as I know have no terminal illness. I stress to everyone that I focus on “living a good life. Not a long life”. My wife and I balance living every year like it might be our last and saving for a long life. We don’t put off traveling, concerts, hanging out with friends and other experiences so we can “retire rich”. If we can’t afford expensive travel in our 60s because we spent our younger healthier years traveling - so what? Statistically we won’t be healthier in ten years than we are now and we are both gym rats. I “retired my wife” at 46 in 2020, eight years into our marriage so she could enjoy her passion projects and I have turned down more lucrative jobs that would have required me to work harder and be in an office so I could work remotely from anywhere - but realistically in US time zones. Everyone who knows me, knows that I would die with no regrets. As far as my wife who loves me and my grown (step)kids who I know also love me, I don’t owe physical suffering to anyone. Assisted suicide because of Alzheimer’s is more tricky than something like cancer though. What can you do? Sign something in advance where once you can’t pass a cognitive test three months in a row - kill you?
- bsimpson 1y ago
airbreather 1y ago
I saw someone interviewed who had set the criteria of being able to enjoy some ice cream with his children and grandchildren at the regular family dinner on Sunday late afternoons. He said that alone made life worth living, for him and them, but once any deteriorating conditions rendered him permanently unable to participate in this weekly activity then he felt it was time to go. Maybe having a pre-set condition like this is less arbitrary, and also allows everyone involved to understand as the time comes closer.
- randcraw 1y ago
  I think this is a fair measure of any life -- are there enough positives to offset the negatives? And that includes the cost (and the benefit) of your suicide on others. No one but you should be able to make that call. All that remains then, legally, is to ensure you are well informed about the de/merits of your choice and sane enough to make the call. Of course, even if you lack legal permission, suicide doesn't strictly _require_ legal or medical assistance. An autonomous exit is always an option, though generally less painless than assisted.
driverdan 1y ago
This is blogspam of the original WSJ article: https://www.wsj.com/arts-culture/books/daniel-kahneman-assisted-suicide-9fb16124 https://www.wsj.com/arts-culture/books/daniel-kahneman-assis... Some of its wording is weird, like mentioning his wife dying in the same context of two other partners with no explanation. The original is a much better read.
cenobyte 1y ago
[flagged]
EasyMark 1y ago
Seems like a good way to go out, "my choice, my body" . I realize some psychological exam should be necessary before such things but it really should be self-determined within reason. I hate that USA is so far behind the curve on this, but eventually we might catch up on it with Europe and not have to resort to more ugly methods.
entelechy0 1y ago
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penguin_booze 1y ago
Death with dignity must be more accessible to more people who, by their rational choice, wants to use it.
bikelang 1y ago
> Daniel Kahneman did not want to make a statement or start a debate. "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either." Sorry mate.
hannofcart 1y ago
I see a lot of comments here expressing disapproval about assisted suicide. I'd like to quote from the HN guidelines: > Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please don't be rigidly or generically negative. With that said I urge you those who disapprove to ask whether you are being "rigidly negative" about this. 1. Is this disapproval perhaps coming from your religious context? If so, please pause and consider why that may not apply to the rest of us. And also whether you really think that your religious beliefs must be forced on the rest of us. 2. Is this disapproval coming from a sense of deep unease that this post causes? If so, know that this unease is shared by most of us. But try and muster the fortitude to go past that unease and consider the decision from a place of compassion.
- beachy 1y ago
  My mum died earlier this year. In hospital, she was approved for assisted dying. There is a mandatory waiting period as part of the process. Many/most of the nursing staff are Filipino and strongly Roman Catholic. As she lay dying and unable to speak, one of the nurses undertook to convert her at this last minute to their religion. At night, alone, after all visitors had left, she would come into mum's room and press mum, a very committed atheist, to pray for her salvation. It's hard to describe how vulnerable someone is who is stuck in their bed and dependant on the nursing team for everything, even sips of water. I will say this was not representative of her care, but it opened my eyes to the lengths religious believers will go to to push their views on others.
  - hannofcart 1y ago
    That was a heartrending account. Am so sorry for your loss. Both she and you deserved to be treated better.
  - gautamcgoel 1y ago
    Sorry to hear that, that is completely unacceptable behavior.
l5870uoo9y 1y ago
Everyone talks about Alzheimer's and dementia, but Daniel Kahneman has neither. He chose to commit suicide because he wanted to avoid “natural decline.” That's an unexpected statement from a 90-year-old. I'm more surprised by his lack of will to live and that he just “gives up” and throws away the most valuable thing he has.
sashank_1509 1y ago
I’m young, but I’m at the age where I’ve seen many grandparents pass away and I must say, I support assisted suicide. The helplessness of the last stretch of your life, something that can last a couple of years, where you often need to help to even stand, doesn’t seem like a period of time worth living. Further modern medicines, in my opinion insane focus on extending life of the very old, compounds this situation to something much worse. I know of a relative who had 5 surgeries, 2 ICU admits in his final year, he was 84. First they were convinced his kidney was failing, then his liver, then they thought cancer and on an on that I couldn’t help but suspect whether this was a money grabbing scheme. I do not know if this was ever widely practiced, but I think the ancient Indian ritual of going to the forest and starving to death in your last days is basically fine. It gives a dignified, sacred end to a life, while the modern medical sciences constant battle against the inevitable ends up distorting and deforming the last days of your life and forces you to leave without dignity clinging to the last vestiges of your humanity that’s left.
- squigz 1y ago
  Starving to death in the forest is probably not very dignified, I gotta say.
  - sashank_1509 1y ago
    Probably better than going to the ICU and having five surgeries at 84
Razengan 1y ago
How much of the taboos against the right to suicide and abortion are because modern societies and economies depend on an ever-increasing population?
- account42 1y ago
  The economic incentive here are the opposite for old people.
Animats 1y ago
"My work is done. Why wait?" - George Eastman's suicide note. He took a final walk around Kodak Park before he died.
benlivengood 1y ago
I find it somewhat fascinating that the article has a giant "Suicidal thoughts? You can find help here:" footer. I don't think it's a link to an assisted suicide/dying with dignity center. Society's relationship with intentional end of life decisions is fraught, to say the least.
christkv 1y ago
I used to be for assisted suicide but I have changed to be against. The things that changed my mind is seeing how it has gone in countries that have implemented it like The Netherlands and Canada with what I consider to unethical assisted suicide of people with mental disorders and disabilities. It smacks of state sanctioned killings disguised as charity. The second one was what kind of psychopath assists in the killing and why is that person allowed to keep practicing. Finally if we can kill ill people what really is the difference in implementing the death penalty and justifying it by ending the criminal insane’s suffering?
- gield 1y ago
  What kind of psychopath is against people dying in a dignified way?
  - christkv 1y ago
    A psychopath that reads stuff like this https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-legalized-medical-assisted-suicide-euthanasia-death-maid/673790/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-... You have to somewhat lacking in critical thinking if you look at assisted suicide and its implementation and still back it.
  - account42 1y ago
    Dignified is what we say it is. Perhaps we should instead not see a part of our natural lives as undignified?
agnosticmantis 1y ago
"His decision seems to have been based less on his famous scientific thinking and more on a very personal feeling. He wanted to retain his autonomy until the end and to shape his own end." So you could say it was more system 1 thinking rather than system 2. I would've expected the opposite given our survival instincts.
cindyllm 1y ago
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tonymet 1y ago
assisted suicide bears risks similar to adding benevolent backdoors to software. The policy rests on the assumption that policies and those enforcing them will always be benevolent. We're opening up tremendous abuses of power by allowing the state to kill people for non-criminal behavior. Sure the first iteration is presented as "voluntary", but the next edition will be for the greater good. And how about sinister / malevolent abuses of "voluntary" suicide -- similar to abuses over guardianship. at least with guardianship the person can be set free, because they are still alive.
torginus 1y ago
This is a bit of an aside but I wonder if people who possess greater intellectual capacity are more resilient - at least outwardly - against old-age mental decline, as even their mental function diminishes, they have an excess buffer so that they are slower to cross the 'threshold' where their inability to mentally function in everyday life becomes apparent?
0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
Lots of discussion of the morality of assisted suicide in this thread, and the circumstances under which it should be legal. In the cryonics community, it's a common complaint that they have to wait until the patient is legally dead in order to cryopreserve, which can make it difficult to cryopreserve under ideal circumstances. I like the idea of allowing individuals to opt for cryopreservation over end-of-life care. End-of life care costs so much money, it could even be neutral from a financial perspective. Since cryopreservation lacks the finality of other forms of death, it could also address some of the ethical dilemmas around assisted dying. After all, a lot of end-of-life care seems to be motivated by a futile attempt to somehow delay the inevitable. From my perspective, cryopreservation seems slightly less futile. If medical technology continues to advance, maybe in the year 2500 there will be people walking around who were born in the 1900s and can give talks about their experiences. Wouldn't that be cool? It would help a lot if just a single country to made it possible to get cryopreserved before you're legally dead.
- krapp 1y ago
  You're talking about cryonics as if it were an established, scientifically proven and effective technology, but it doesn't work and is widely considered to be pseudoscience. And mentioning the cost of end-of-life care is risible when your alternative is paying paying indefinite rent to a company for freezer space to keep a corpse frozen.
  - ares623 1y ago
    I wish billionaires believed in it. Would make the world a much better place.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
    >You're talking about cryonics as if it were an established, scientifically proven and effective technology I don't believe that. I do believe it is a hair less futile than delaying the inevitable and then burying yourself 6 feet underground. >it doesn't work and is widely considered to be pseudoscience. The cryonicist claim is something like: "If we save your brain in a way that preserves its information content, it may be possible for future technology to reconstruct that information content, and effectively revive you." No cryonicist is claiming that cryonics "works" with existing technology. Consider the state of medicine in the year 1925 vs the state of medicine in the year 2025. Now extrapolate that advancement trend forwards until 2525. Is extrapolating trends forward a form of pseudoscience? If so, what do you say about global warming? >And mentioning the cost of end-of-life care is risible when your alternative is paying paying indefinite rent to a company for freezer space to keep a corpse frozen. Keeping a closed canister filled with liquid nitrogen is not especially costly. Alcor charges $80K out of pocket for neuropreservation: https://www.alcor.org/membership/pricing-and-dues/ https://www.alcor.org/membership/pricing-and-dues/ The Lancet says a typical American accumulates $155K in healthcare costs during the last 3 years of their life: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(22)00176-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-19... Long-term care costs are rising fast: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/24/business/retirement-long-term-care.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/24/business/retirement-long-... (BTW, I appreciate that you made a falsifiable claim here, since that helps readers evaluate the credibility of your other claims. A sort of within-comment Gell-Mann effect.)
abstractspoon 1y ago
I will, ahem, take steps to ensure I never get dementia
vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
We definitely need a better culture around dying. My mom is 95 and slowly everything she likes is being taken away from her. Going for a walk is difficult because she has unpredictable falls, husband is dead, all friends are dead, eyesight is so bad she can't read anymore, memory is failing. Really nothing to look forward to. Just existing and waiting for things to get worse. Mentally she is still pretty clear and she often says it would be best if she doesn't wake up in the morning. I think it would be better for everybody if we had a way to have a ceremony where we all say goodbye and then end it.
cauliflower99 1y ago
I mean...is there anyone here who isn't on this bandwagon?
braza 1y ago
I'm totally in favor of assisted suicide, and I think it's a good mechanism for those suffering, if voluntarily chosen. That said, I think the same, and there are some non-obvious second-order effects around it being the menu, especially regarding life extension incentives and if people started to feel guilt-tripped by it. The first thing that comes to mind is a reduction in commitment to the elderly. As soon as health care costs ramp up, people will start to make more decisions based on the economic aspect of the people's support instead of thinking in life extension mechanisms as a natural first choice. Second, it is related to the public health services. From my experience in some parts of EU/America, if you have a disease until your 50s, you will get treatment. However, after that, there are probably some parts of the public/private health system that throttle down the treatments. The 2-week interval between a return if you are 30s/40s, will become 6 weeks if you are over 60s. The next one, the "inheritance social contract," will be changed. As long as folks know that assisted suicide will be placed on the menu, I do not doubt that folks terrified with the possibility of loved ones "not doing enough to keep them alive" will dilute everyone who lifts the gas. And as a second-order, I can see the securitization and life insurance industry will demand insane premiums to cover elderly persons, given that potentially people can lift and coast the treatment for their loved ones, and this can break part of their actuarial models, which, yes, expect people to exhaust resources to keep their elderly alive and not to choose together to pull the plug in a single-digit number of years before. And maybe a third-order effect (in Germany there are some cases) where people with resources (single-digit million real estate + assets) exercise liquidity on it and live the best of their lives after 70 or in some cases, legally marry 30+ nurses to take care of them in the last 3 years and offer a chunk of inheritance, post-death pension, or insurance premium.
tsoukase 1y ago
It's another thing to not give palliative treatment to prolong life for a little more and another to provide poison to accelerate death. My opinion is to continue palliative care when the benefit outweighs the harm in the QUALITY of life (not necessarily quantity) and infuse some morphine 1 or 2 days before death in order to skip the last stage.
scotty79 1y ago
As a person who lost my life partner six years ago to a brain tumor I completely understand what he did. After seeing things first hand I too don't intend to wait for old age and illness to devastate me. I'm barely over half of his age with no serious health issues that I know of so it's not the time for me yet. But I can fully understand his reasoning.
bobjordan 1y ago
This is one reason why as I’ve entered my 50’s, I’ve decided to take every advantage of modern medicine including hormone management and performance enhancing drugs. I started three years ago at 47 and now I’m living my best life at 50, in the best physical condition that I’ve been in since my early twenties. Although I’d certainly like to live a lot more years, I care more about my quality of life than the quantity of years. If I make it to my 80’s, it’ll be with the testosterone of a man in his 20’s and muscle mass on my body.
elizabertchuc 1y ago
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580 points by kvam 1y ago

An interesting choice. It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong - I wonder if at a certain age this instinct diminishes making a choice like his easier?

amelius 1y ago
> It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong For physical illnesses.
masklinn 1y ago
> I wonder if at a certain age this instinct diminishes making a choice like his easier? It's less likely to be "a certain age" and more surrounding factors: if most of your friends have passed and you don't have much chance to do things that interest you because you could pass at any moment yourself there comes a point where life has limited worth. Essentially, hope runs out, and when it's run out entirely you either wait for death, or ... don't wait. > It's fascinating that even for very ill or injured people the will to survive is so strong Sometimes. Chronic illnesses are a massive contributing factor to suicide rates for instance: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(22)00258-7/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7...
fjfaase 1y ago
If you have (grand)children, an important reason to wanting to stay alive is often not the fear of dying, but wanting to be there for them and fearing the grief they will endure if you are gone.
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  My grandparents stuck around too long, so I have the opposite fear of burdening my descendants with having to (if not legally, then via social pressure) spend too much time, money, and energy caring for me.
  - exasperaited 1y ago
    There’s a solution to this you can start on right now: structure your life and experiences such that you become an awesome grandparent with hilarious stories, humility and appeal to your grandchildren. I probably won’t ever meet my grandchildren if there are any, because I am over fifty and single; I probably will never be a parent. So I will have to go a lot sooner if I am not to be a burden on society. But if you think you are going to be a grandparent, you can work on being an irreplaceable and useful one.
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
      I am referring to being so old that you are dependent on others everyday such that the caregivers cannot go on vacation. One set of my grandparents both lived to 100, and they had a 15 year age gap, so that was the first 30 years of my life that my parents sacrificed time with their kids, professional life, and personal life. Very few people are independent after age 80, and a miniscule amount after 90.
  - basisword 1y ago
    I think it would be valuable to get your parents opinion on whether the burden was worth it or not. Or, unfortunately, to see if your opinion changes if you have to bear the burden of your parents in the future. It's easy to assume the burden isn't worth it when we have a bit more distance (e.g. grandparents) but I think people are more open to it than we realise - even if it comes with immense amounts of stress. Saying that I think it varies person to person. Often in families you have people who are willing to carry the burden and others who aren't and that brings even more stress and disagreement to the situation.
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
raffael_de 1y ago
Maybe at a certain age other instincts strengthen making a choice like this easier? We all have to come to terms. And if you are older than 70 then it is just a fact that every day can be your last without any accident or noteworthy medical complication. And the guy has been probably thinking about this fast and slow for at least two decades then.
cm2012 1y ago
You get so tired
- jacquesm 1y ago
  This.

lordnacho 1y ago

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he wanted to cook. I told him "this is pink all over, you have to cook it more". He got angry. I understood he'd become like this to everyone. He pissed off everyone on his street, and all police, medical and social workers sent to help him. The disease made him blow up every relationship he had with anyone that he didn't know well, like me and a couple of colleagues. He got found in his house, having left the gas on, endangering the whole street. He ended up in a care home, not knowing who he was, or who I was. If he'd been run over by a car, or died of a heart attack at the age of 80, people he knew would remember him as that nice old guy who had a dog and made a lot of art, and was friendly to everyone. Instead he was that 83 year old guy who pissed off everyone, nearly blew up the neighbourhood, and drove like a maniac. You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you.

Freak_NL 1y ago
It doesn't seem pleasant for the person themself either. Constant frustration, gaps in your memory growing ever larger, disorientation, loss — periodically augmented by brief flickers of recollection of what you used to be — and yet no one can legally end your misery, because you can likely no longer unequivocally consent to euthanasia or assisted suicide, even if you explicitly signed a declaration that you did not want to end up like this — legally, the current husk of your former self must consent, and it can't.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  It’s still absurd despite what you say that we are implying that we should euthanize another human because they have become difficult to manage due to illness. Where do we draw the line?
  - 1y ago

simplegeek 1y ago

> And even at the end, when asked what he would like to do, he said: "I would like to learn something." Don't have an exact word to describe how I feel after reading above. Find it beautiful that such an accomplished person wanted to learn something even towards the end of his life.

SeanAnderson 1y ago

Daniel wrote one of my favorite books, Thinking: Fast and Slow (https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374275637/ https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp...). If you haven't read it, and you're into economics, behavioral psychology, and thinking about thinking then I'd highly recommend it. The first half of the book is especially compelling. You will be missed! Sad to hear he passed, but glad he was able to go out on his own terms.

kqr 1y ago
His next big book, Noise, is possibly even better.
- xpe 1y ago
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  - xpe 1y ago
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  - bogeholm 1y ago
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    - xpe 1y ago
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      - mkagenius 1y ago
        I literally thought some unpublished book. But you shouldn't have doubled down on 'next'. Your first para was enough.
        xpe 1y ago
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xpe 1y ago

Related, a 5 page page PDF, freely downloadable: Should assisted dying be legalised? Philosophy, Ethics, and Humanities in Medicine volume 9, Article number: 3 (2014) Thomas D G Frost, Devan Sinha & Barnabas J Gilbert https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341-9-3 https://peh-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1747-5341... Abstract When an individual facing intractable pain is given an estimate of a few months to live, does hastening death become a viable and legitimate alternative for willing patients? Has the time come for physicians to do away with the traditional notion of healthcare as maintaining or improving physical and mental health, and instead accept their own limitations by facilitating death when requested? The Universities of Oxford and Cambridge held the 2013 Varsity Medical Debate on the motion “This House Would Legalise Assisted Dying”. This article summarises the key arguments developed over the course of the debate. We will explore how assisted dying can affect both the patient and doctor; the nature of consent and limits of autonomy; the effects on society; the viability of a proposed model; and, perhaps most importantly, the potential need for the practice within our current medico-legal framework.

xpe 1y ago
A quote from the above: > It is difficult to reconcile that citizens may have the right to do almost anything to and with their own bodies– from participating in extreme sports to having elective plastic surgery– yet a terminal patient cannot choose to avoid experiencing additional months of discomfort or loss of dignity in their final months of life.
- masklinn 1y ago
  One issue I think about a fair bit is that without legal assisted suicide aside from all the usual issues with unassisted suicide you need to end things even earlier to make sure you do it while still physically capable: with age the risk of physical debilitation increases sharply, a bad fall or a small stroke will see you in the hospital or incapable of moving an arm. Which is on top of the risks of mental debilitation taking away your right to self determination (through simple incompetence).

decremental 1y ago

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lionkor 1y ago

> "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either."

basisword 1y ago
He had to know it would be. I wonder if that was maybe an attempt to say this is completely personal and I'm not trying to encourage others to do the same or suggest it is the right thing for everyone to do?
inglor_cz 1y ago
While I understand him, public personalities cannot really demand to avoid attention on such an existential topic.
- dooglius 1y ago
  The email was a "personal message to close friends", I think it's a reasonable request for him to ask them not to share the information.
- ocrow 1y ago
  They can ask. We're the ones choosing to ignore his wish.
amelius 1y ago
Not even in the abstract?

cladopa 1y ago

[flagged]

rmccue 1y ago
This always comes up with this prize, but it’s generally considered one of the Nobel prizes, although it’s not one of the original prizes. Your opinion on whether it should count is up to you, but to call it media manipulation is reading a lot of malice into it.
- stackskipton 1y ago
  Argument is that economists knew exactly what would happen when they got linked with Nobel Prizes and help solidify economics as hard science like physics, medicine or math in eyes of the public. Begin debate around how scientific is some economics.
  - croes 1y ago
    Is math considered a science?
    - stackskipton 1y ago
      Yes? You can form hypothesis and prove it or not.
      - croes 1y ago
        But science is based on empirical methods. Math isn’t empirical. You don’t do experiments in maths do gain knowledge. It’s not a natural science and not a social science so that leaves formal science but math in a requirement for formal science. Math can’t be its own requirement so it’s not a formal science either.
tomschwiha 1y ago
That sounds a bit harsh - probably more simplification than manipulation.

anilgulecha 1y ago

I'm part of the Jain community in Bangalore, and the version of this in society exists, called Sallekhna [1], a tradition that's developed over millennia, and this is venerated and celebrated. The philosophical underpinning is giving up of materialness. The practicality of the 5 instances that I witnessed over the past year - typical terminal individuals choose this. They pass away surrounded by loved ones (they typically medicate for any pain, and the body starts shutting down when food and water stops). This is observed with somberness, but celebrated as very positive act. When someone starts this process, it's a unique experience speaking with them, as there's usually nothing that comes up, and the moment does not really lend itself to small talk :) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallekhana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallekhana

mosura 1y ago
How long does this actually take?
- masklinn 1y ago
  Hard fast (e.g. hunger strikes) usually take about 2 months to kill a healthy adult. On the one hand according to the wiki this is more progressive removing food by degrees which would make the process a lot longer. On the other hand being a mostly ascetic practice I'd assume it's done by people who have a lot less reserves (body fat and muscle) which would shorten the process significantly (the 207kg Angus Barbieri famously fasted continuously for 382 days[0] breaking his fast at 82kg, although he supplemented his liquids — water, tea, and coffee — with vitamins, electrolytes, and yeast extract, the latter for essential amino acids). [0]: technically he was put on a recovery diet of salting then sugaring his water for 10 days, so ate no solid food for 392 days, breaking his fast with a boiled egg and a slice of buttered bread
  - nemo1618 1y ago
    Liquids are also removed (gradually). For someone already in weakened condition, I would be surprised if the process took longer than two weeks.

sarchertech 1y ago

So he was very old without any significant problems, but he wanted to avoid the inevitable problems? If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. He even made the 9 hour trip to come see us last year. I’m very wary of making it legal for doctors to euthanize an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid an eventual decline. It’s relatively common for families to push people into nursing homes, but in this case there’s an even stronger direct financial incentive. I don’t trust the system to adequately prevent this.

lblume 1y ago
I agree with your legal assessment and still think of the case as very interesting. The article explicitly talks about how any such decision could have only been premature, for the slow cognitive decline is typically only noticed when it is too late, and because the change is continuous, there can be no good commitment to "I no longer consider this life worthwhile once condition X is no longer satisfied".
1dom 1y ago
> If you’ve already made it to 90 with no major issues, you’re expected to make it to 95 and you could make easily live to 100. My wife’s grandad is 90 and he still lives alone, drives, plays golf nearly everyday, and regularly sees his 12 grandchildren and many great grandchildren. Counter-anecdote, my partners Granddad is 93. Age 90, we said the same as you. Now he's an old, rude, obnoxious liability - he's still great, and I don't hold it against him, he's earned the right. But I've never known anyone naturally age and die without losing their ability to be civil in some way towards the end. From the article: > Kahneman knew that many would see his decision as premature. But that was exactly what he intended, he wrote: If you wait until a life is "obviously no longer worth living", it is already too late. I personally wish my partners final memories of her Granddad were him at 90, and not at 93. I've known for a good 5 - 10 years I will take the same route as Kahneman. I feel the desire to stay alive long enough to be a liability for yourself and those around you is a decision motivated by ego and fear, rather than compassion or logic.

mcdonje 1y ago

The sad demise of Robin Williams made me a believer of assisted suicide. The option to go out with dignity should be available to everyone. That said, there is a problem in at least some places where assisted suicide is available where it keeps getting recommended to disabled people who don't want to die. That needs to be solved. Seems like an easy solve. Just don't do it. There is a cost reduction incentive, though, which is why it happens. Costs can be reduced for abled people by convincing them to exercise and eat more fiber, so the same pressure can do good instead of evil. At some point we have to decide to care about people.

sarchertech 1y ago
That’s the problem. If there’s a financial incentive people will find way to push it. That’s my biggest concern about assisted suicide for an otherwise healthy person who just wants to avoid the inevitable decline (as in this case). There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this. The only way I can see to remove that would be to require that your estate can’t go to anyone who potentially has influence over you in the case of assisted suicide for with no terminal illness.
- hypeatei 1y ago
  > There is a direct financial incentive for families to push people into this What financial incentives are there in killing someone?
  - sarchertech 1y ago
    Inheritance.
    - hypeatei 1y ago
      So... something you're entitled to regardless of how they die? I don't see why, in this hypothetical, a person would spend energy encouraging assisted suicide when they'll get inheritance eventually anyway. Am I missing something?

Simulacra 1y ago

Ever since I watched my father waste away in agony and die in a veterans home, it has become my greatest fear in life to suffer until the bitter end. I choose euthanasia because I don't want to put my family through that, and the last thing I want to do, if you'll pardon me, is to waste away in my own urine and feces in what will likely be a sub optimal care situation.

cogman10 1y ago
Same with my grandmother that had dementia. You can get into a state of living death where the brain is mush and who you were is completely destroyed. That's hell for the family. I saw my grandmother forget her daughter (my mother) it was heartbreaking. Seeing my mom realize her mom forgot everything about their life together was just painful. It was just a sad existence to observe as well. Grandma lived for quiet a while with dementia and spent years trying to return to her childhood home. We'd constantly have to trick her into accepting help from us "strangers". Re-convincing her to come inside that these "strangers" wouldn't mind having her for a bit. Watching her read over the same page of a book for hours on end. That's not an existence I want for myself or my family.

bramhaag 1y ago

I think it's beautiful he got to go out on his own terms, when he felt it was the right time to do so. I'm often reminded about a case in my own country: a young person had decided it was time to end her life after struggling for many years, without a sign of improvement. She was denied the right to euthanasia. After multiple failed suicide attempts, she went for the nuclear option and jumped in front of a train. Everyone deserves to die in a dignified and humane way, not in multiple pieces or with a mind deteriorated beyond recognition. Forcing prolonged suffering is unnecessarily cruel. I wish more countries were as progressive with euthenasia as Switzerland.

gield 1y ago
Coincidentally, today there was an article in a Belgian newspaper about a 25-year-old woman who will undergo euthanasia in a few weeks due to severe psychological suffering with no prospect of improvement. After years of suffering and 40 failed suicide attempts, I indeed think it's much more dignified to have euthanasia as an option. Euthanasia has some strict rules in Belgium, especially for cases involving psychological suffering. In 2014, the age restriction was dropped (except for psychological suffering). Since then, 6 minors have received euthanasia.

em500 1y ago

I'm surprised and fascinated that this is apparently legal in Switzerland. The Netherlands, famous for allowing assisted suicide, has pretty strict criteria for this[1]. In particular, the physician must "be satisfied that the patient’s suffering is unbearable, with no prospect of improvement", which from this article sounds far from the case here. [1] https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/is-euthanasia-allowed https://www.government.nl/topics/euthanasia/is-euthanasia-al...

antegamisou 1y ago
Euthanasia in Switzerland ^ has been a notorious profitable practice for years, compared to the Netherlands where it's almost exclusively practiced on those with terminal debilitating disease. ^ Yes, it's "illegal" but it's effectively nulled if the means to it are made legal.
- InsideOutSanta 1y ago
  It is illegal to profit from assisted suicide in Switzerland. All organizations that are involved in assisted suicide are nonprofits. Every assisted suicide is then investigated by the police to ensure no profit motives exist.
  - antegamisou 1y ago
    Why does one have to pay an extraordinary amount for it then? Does all money go to the facilities and the staff? (which mind you by law isn't mandated to consist of physicians) Again: Yes, it's "illegal" but it's effectively nulled if the means to it are made legal.
    - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
      > Why does one have to pay an extraordinary amount for it then? I don't know what you mean by "an extraordinary amount." It's about $10,000, which covers multiple consultations, medical assessments, interactions with the government, the nonprofit's operational costs, and so on.

Aerbil313 1y ago

Now this is hilariously non-ironic. The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing “increasing metal lapses”, presumably in order to not ever live irrationally.

xpe 1y ago
> Now this is ironic. Ironic is the opposite of what you mean, don't you think? By your explanation, Kahneman acted according to his life's work. > The guy who spent his life researching how to live rationally chooses suicide at age 90, upon seeing “increasing metal lapses”, presumably in order to not ever live irrationally. That was possibly part of his motivation. But also the pain, suffering (goes broader than physical pain), confusion, and cost -- to him and his family.
- Aerbil313 1y ago
  Thanks, I had a mental lapse - fixed it.

poszlem 1y ago

I’m trying to figure out why this feels so unsettling to me. I can understand wanting to end one’s life because of unbearable pain or illness, but something about this just feels wrong.

locallost 1y ago
It's not unsettling for me, but I have a similar feeling. On the other hand, maybe he did have a medical issue, just chose not to disclose it. In any case it is his choice, as is the wish not to discuss it. I think this will be difficult to enforce, but I will personally respect it.

bapak 1y ago

More of this, please. What is the point of living your last 10 years of life bed ridden? This is how I will go.

arresin 1y ago
You will have an eternity to be dead. I want every second. Even if it’s painful. I am still alive.
- raffael_de 1y ago
  Are you sure you understand how painful pain can be? Especially when you experience it daily and there is no hope for recovery?
  - arresin 1y ago
    I think you underestimate the length of eternity.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- wiseowise 1y ago
  How do you know if someone is anti-assisted suicide or anti-abortion? They'll tell you, whenever you want to do anything with your own body.
  - arresin 1y ago
    We’re all connected. What you do with your body has a huge number of ripple effects. Obviously. So yeah, other people get a say.
    - wiseowise 1y ago
      That’s where you’re wrong. Nobody has a say what you do with your body.

gcanyon 1y ago

I 100% understand his rationale, and in the same position I'd probably do the same -- "probably" because this is one of those things you can't possibly predict in advance.

afh1 1y ago

There's a Star Trek episode with this exact plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_a_Life_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half_a_Life_(Star_Trek:_The_Ne...

throwpoaster 1y ago

Assisted suicide is not how a healthy society should respond to serious mental health conditions.

wiseowise 1y ago
The guy chose to quit on his own terms, healthy society shouldn't have a say in it.

7e 1y ago

Cryonic preservation is assisted suicide but with a small bonus chance of living forever. Seems preferable.

a022311 1y ago
Unless the situation ends up like in https://xkcd.com/989/ https://xkcd.com/989/
jacquesm 1y ago
It's a scam.

Noaidi 1y ago

To me, Daniel Kahneman humiliated himself by choosing suicide (if he was in a sound state of mind to make that decision). He was a scared, little old man. He made an assumption that his life was "obviously no longer worth living", how little he thought of life is pathetic. Now he could have been depressed after his wife died and was just lying to himself that this was his own, autonomous, decision. Depression can do that to you, it can make you think suicide is the most rational decision.

_ttg 1y ago

I was curious about how he actually died and found an [1] article describing it: > Kahneman used the services of Pegasos in the village of Roderis in Nunningen, Switzerland. In the death room with a view over green hills, wearing a suit and tie, he lay on the bed and turned on an infusion of sodium pentobarbital himself. A companion held his hand and told him they were holding it on behalf of his loved ones. Kahneman's last words were "I feel their love." [1]: https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/suizidhilfe-weltstar-stirbt-in-der-schweiz-die-bewegende-geschichte-eines-psychologen-der-unser-denken-veraendern-wollte-ld.2750085 https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/schweiz/suizidhilfe-weltstar-...

Kailhus 1y ago
This hit me harder than I thought it would.
crossroadsguy 1y ago
Is this https://pegasos-association.com https://pegasos-association.com the one? > Pegasos, a non-profit based in Basel, Switzerland, believes that it is the human right of every rational adult of sound mind, regardless of state of health, to choose the manner and timing of their death. I found this bit "regardless of state" really interesting. I wonder what their views would be for someone who wouldn't have a family and nothing much to do or explore after a certain age? Does it matter what nationality they are from? What if someone's reason is - they had savings and now they have run out of it and area already 55-60 or more and have no intention or plan to work anymore and don't want to go through the struggle of life? (Of course they would have had paid the euthanasia fees) How does it all happen?
- joomla199 1y ago
  Well they did say “rational adult of sound mind”, and “rational” there easily disqualifies every human being on the planet, with all our evolved biases, heuristics, and common predictable misjudgments. I imagine its criteria applied arbitrarily.
  - 1y ago

a022311 1y ago

Not going to express an opinion, I'll just leave this except from the Hippocratic Oath [1], which reflects society's primary beliefs on this topic approximately up until the 19th century: > οὐ δώσω δὲ οὐδὲ φάρμακον οὐδενὶ αἰτηθεὶς θανάσιμον, οὐδὲ ὑφηγήσομαι συμβουλίην τοιήνδε In English: > Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

huhtenberg 1y ago
That's likely to be a consequence of prevailing religious norms of the time.
magicmicah85 1y ago
The modern hippocratic oath has no mention of poisons, also doesn't require the oath to be sworn before the gods of the pantheon. Up until the 19th century, physicians didn't believe in germs either. Attitudes change with the knowledge we accumulate.
- account42 1y ago
  Change doesn't inherently mean better.

lazyfanatic42 1y ago

Took care of someone with Alzheimers for six years until they passed away. No one should have to exist like that, for that long. A biological shell simply of automatic inputs and outputs. Robin Williams had to hang himself. There should be easy medical options in the US.

ocrow 1y ago
I think Alzheimer's is a particularly difficult case. Before diagnosis, many of us imagine that we wouldn't want to exist in a highly deteriorated state with no ability to care for ourselves. But as you start to decline, you still feel like yourself, just a very forgetful version of yourself. On which day do you decide that what remains of your mind isn't enough to make your available future days better than no future days? The instinct for self preservation is strong. Knowing what will come requires foresight and clarity. You may lose the capacity for informed decision making before the point where it's clear that there's not much to live for. Many of us lack the insight that Kahneman perhaps had that in order to take control of the end you may need to leave some good days on the table.
bsimpson 1y ago
Robin Williams' end was even more grim than that sentence lets on. Horrible to think of such a loved man going out is such a desparate way.

deleted 1y ago

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willmadden 1y ago

For every Daniel Kahneman case, there's a case where the victim doesn't give consent, is coerced, or pressured from caregivers. It always rapidly expands from terminal illness to mental illness or non-terminal conditions. There's also weak oversight and misaligned profit motives. The examples in the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, and Oregon are shocking.

djaboss 1y ago
Please provide shocking examples, especially for Switzerland. I'm eager to learn about real arguments from the other side.
- willmadden 1y ago
  Netherlands: Aurelia Brouwers, 29, with depression and autism (non-terminal), euthanized in 2018; critics cite expansion to mental illness and potential coercion risks. Switzerland: 8% of assisted deaths involve mental disorders like severe depression; cases show weak oversight, allowing non-terminal approvals despite coercion concerns. Canada: 2022 Veterans Affairs cases: Caseworkers offered MAiD to 4+ veterans in poverty seeking benefits, indicating systemic coercion and cost-saving motives. Oregon: Kate Cheney, 85, with early dementia (mental/non-terminal elements), approved 1999 amid daughter pressure suspicions; evaluations noted influence but oversight permitted despite weak safeguards.
gield 1y ago
Can you please list some of those examples? You didn't mention Belgium so I'm pleased to hear that Belgium is doing well according to you (4000 cases of euthanasia per year of which 80 are for psychological suffering, 1 child per year).
- willmadden 1y ago
  Don't put words in my mouth. Disingenuous. Belgium: Tine Nys, 38, autism/depression (non-terminal), euthanized 2010; rushed procedure amid family presence, weak oversight, sisters allege undue pressure and unmet incurable criteria. Belgium: Frank Van Den Bleeken, prisoner with untreated psychiatric disorder, requested 2014; non-terminal suffering from inadequate care, systemic pressure via prison failures, oversight gaps. Belgium: Nathalie Huygens, 50s, trauma-induced mental illness, approved 2022; financial barriers to treatment raise coercion concerns, questions on incurability oversight.

AndrewKemendo 1y ago

”Daniel Kahneman did not want to make a statement or start a debate. "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either."” Seems like we should close this thread to honor these wishes

sl-1 1y ago

RIP, his work made a huge impression on me. And I admire the dignity to go when one chooses. I guess we are all Dying, Fast and Slow.

mark_l_watson 1y ago

Good account of his reasoning. Off topic, but my Dad’s last girlfriend before he died two years ago was a co-founder of the Hemlock Society/International Right To Die organization - huge effort to get assisted suicide made legal in different tax jurisdictions around the world and different states in the US.

circlefavshape 1y ago

My dad is in the early stages of Alzheimer's and it's made me think of what I'll do if I find myself in the same situation Assisted suicide sounds like a fine option until you think of its impact on your loved ones. Imagining putting my wife and kids through my deciding to die, and the process of them bringing me to the place where it happens - or imagining one of them doing the same thing - just fills me with horror

toomuchtodo 1y ago
Death comes for us all. It’s okay to cultivate emotional fortitude to die on own terms, at the place and time of our choosing, with grace. Would you rather them remember you as a shell of who you were, long dead mentally while the body continues on? Death is a part of life we cannot avoid, nor should we. > If you wait until a life is "obviously no longer worth living", it is already too late —- Kahneman Live your life in a way that it is worth living until you no longer can, I suppose. To exist is hard, do your best.
raw_anon_1111 1y ago
Death happens to all of us. I’m 51 and as far as I know have no terminal illness. I stress to everyone that I focus on “living a good life. Not a long life”. My wife and I balance living every year like it might be our last and saving for a long life. We don’t put off traveling, concerts, hanging out with friends and other experiences so we can “retire rich”. If we can’t afford expensive travel in our 60s because we spent our younger healthier years traveling - so what? Statistically we won’t be healthier in ten years than we are now and we are both gym rats. I “retired my wife” at 46 in 2020, eight years into our marriage so she could enjoy her passion projects and I have turned down more lucrative jobs that would have required me to work harder and be in an office so I could work remotely from anywhere - but realistically in US time zones. Everyone who knows me, knows that I would die with no regrets. As far as my wife who loves me and my grown (step)kids who I know also love me, I don’t owe physical suffering to anyone. Assisted suicide because of Alzheimer’s is more tricky than something like cancer though. What can you do? Sign something in advance where once you can’t pass a cognitive test three months in a row - kill you?
bsimpson 1y ago

airbreather 1y ago

I saw someone interviewed who had set the criteria of being able to enjoy some ice cream with his children and grandchildren at the regular family dinner on Sunday late afternoons. He said that alone made life worth living, for him and them, but once any deteriorating conditions rendered him permanently unable to participate in this weekly activity then he felt it was time to go. Maybe having a pre-set condition like this is less arbitrary, and also allows everyone involved to understand as the time comes closer.

randcraw 1y ago
I think this is a fair measure of any life -- are there enough positives to offset the negatives? And that includes the cost (and the benefit) of your suicide on others. No one but you should be able to make that call. All that remains then, legally, is to ensure you are well informed about the de/merits of your choice and sane enough to make the call. Of course, even if you lack legal permission, suicide doesn't strictly _require_ legal or medical assistance. An autonomous exit is always an option, though generally less painless than assisted.

driverdan 1y ago

This is blogspam of the original WSJ article: https://www.wsj.com/arts-culture/books/daniel-kahneman-assisted-suicide-9fb16124 https://www.wsj.com/arts-culture/books/daniel-kahneman-assis... Some of its wording is weird, like mentioning his wife dying in the same context of two other partners with no explanation. The original is a much better read.

cenobyte 1y ago

[flagged]

EasyMark 1y ago

Seems like a good way to go out, "my choice, my body" . I realize some psychological exam should be necessary before such things but it really should be self-determined within reason. I hate that USA is so far behind the curve on this, but eventually we might catch up on it with Europe and not have to resort to more ugly methods.

entelechy0 1y ago

[dead]

penguin_booze 1y ago

Death with dignity must be more accessible to more people who, by their rational choice, wants to use it.

bikelang 1y ago

> Daniel Kahneman did not want to make a statement or start a debate. "I am not ashamed of my decision," he wrote, "but I don't want it to be discussed publicly either." Sorry mate.

hannofcart 1y ago

I see a lot of comments here expressing disapproval about assisted suicide. I'd like to quote from the HN guidelines: > Don't be curmudgeonly. Thoughtful criticism is fine, but please don't be rigidly or generically negative. With that said I urge you those who disapprove to ask whether you are being "rigidly negative" about this. 1. Is this disapproval perhaps coming from your religious context? If so, please pause and consider why that may not apply to the rest of us. And also whether you really think that your religious beliefs must be forced on the rest of us. 2. Is this disapproval coming from a sense of deep unease that this post causes? If so, know that this unease is shared by most of us. But try and muster the fortitude to go past that unease and consider the decision from a place of compassion.

beachy 1y ago
My mum died earlier this year. In hospital, she was approved for assisted dying. There is a mandatory waiting period as part of the process. Many/most of the nursing staff are Filipino and strongly Roman Catholic. As she lay dying and unable to speak, one of the nurses undertook to convert her at this last minute to their religion. At night, alone, after all visitors had left, she would come into mum's room and press mum, a very committed atheist, to pray for her salvation. It's hard to describe how vulnerable someone is who is stuck in their bed and dependant on the nursing team for everything, even sips of water. I will say this was not representative of her care, but it opened my eyes to the lengths religious believers will go to to push their views on others.
- hannofcart 1y ago
  That was a heartrending account. Am so sorry for your loss. Both she and you deserved to be treated better.
- gautamcgoel 1y ago
  Sorry to hear that, that is completely unacceptable behavior.

l5870uoo9y 1y ago

Everyone talks about Alzheimer's and dementia, but Daniel Kahneman has neither. He chose to commit suicide because he wanted to avoid “natural decline.” That's an unexpected statement from a 90-year-old. I'm more surprised by his lack of will to live and that he just “gives up” and throws away the most valuable thing he has.

sashank_1509 1y ago

I’m young, but I’m at the age where I’ve seen many grandparents pass away and I must say, I support assisted suicide. The helplessness of the last stretch of your life, something that can last a couple of years, where you often need to help to even stand, doesn’t seem like a period of time worth living. Further modern medicines, in my opinion insane focus on extending life of the very old, compounds this situation to something much worse. I know of a relative who had 5 surgeries, 2 ICU admits in his final year, he was 84. First they were convinced his kidney was failing, then his liver, then they thought cancer and on an on that I couldn’t help but suspect whether this was a money grabbing scheme. I do not know if this was ever widely practiced, but I think the ancient Indian ritual of going to the forest and starving to death in your last days is basically fine. It gives a dignified, sacred end to a life, while the modern medical sciences constant battle against the inevitable ends up distorting and deforming the last days of your life and forces you to leave without dignity clinging to the last vestiges of your humanity that’s left.

squigz 1y ago
Starving to death in the forest is probably not very dignified, I gotta say.
- sashank_1509 1y ago
  Probably better than going to the ICU and having five surgeries at 84

Razengan 1y ago

How much of the taboos against the right to suicide and abortion are because modern societies and economies depend on an ever-increasing population?

account42 1y ago
The economic incentive here are the opposite for old people.

Animats 1y ago

"My work is done. Why wait?" - George Eastman's suicide note. He took a final walk around Kodak Park before he died.

benlivengood 1y ago

I find it somewhat fascinating that the article has a giant "Suicidal thoughts? You can find help here:" footer. I don't think it's a link to an assisted suicide/dying with dignity center. Society's relationship with intentional end of life decisions is fraught, to say the least.

christkv 1y ago

I used to be for assisted suicide but I have changed to be against. The things that changed my mind is seeing how it has gone in countries that have implemented it like The Netherlands and Canada with what I consider to unethical assisted suicide of people with mental disorders and disabilities. It smacks of state sanctioned killings disguised as charity. The second one was what kind of psychopath assists in the killing and why is that person allowed to keep practicing. Finally if we can kill ill people what really is the difference in implementing the death penalty and justifying it by ending the criminal insane’s suffering?

gield 1y ago
What kind of psychopath is against people dying in a dignified way?
- christkv 1y ago
  A psychopath that reads stuff like this https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-legalized-medical-assisted-suicide-euthanasia-death-maid/673790/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/06/canada-... You have to somewhat lacking in critical thinking if you look at assisted suicide and its implementation and still back it.
- account42 1y ago
  Dignified is what we say it is. Perhaps we should instead not see a part of our natural lives as undignified?

agnosticmantis 1y ago

"His decision seems to have been based less on his famous scientific thinking and more on a very personal feeling. He wanted to retain his autonomy until the end and to shape his own end." So you could say it was more system 1 thinking rather than system 2. I would've expected the opposite given our survival instincts.

cindyllm 1y ago

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tonymet 1y ago

assisted suicide bears risks similar to adding benevolent backdoors to software. The policy rests on the assumption that policies and those enforcing them will always be benevolent. We're opening up tremendous abuses of power by allowing the state to kill people for non-criminal behavior. Sure the first iteration is presented as "voluntary", but the next edition will be for the greater good. And how about sinister / malevolent abuses of "voluntary" suicide -- similar to abuses over guardianship. at least with guardianship the person can be set free, because they are still alive.

torginus 1y ago

This is a bit of an aside but I wonder if people who possess greater intellectual capacity are more resilient - at least outwardly - against old-age mental decline, as even their mental function diminishes, they have an excess buffer so that they are slower to cross the 'threshold' where their inability to mentally function in everyday life becomes apparent?

0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago

Lots of discussion of the morality of assisted suicide in this thread, and the circumstances under which it should be legal. In the cryonics community, it's a common complaint that they have to wait until the patient is legally dead in order to cryopreserve, which can make it difficult to cryopreserve under ideal circumstances. I like the idea of allowing individuals to opt for cryopreservation over end-of-life care. End-of life care costs so much money, it could even be neutral from a financial perspective. Since cryopreservation lacks the finality of other forms of death, it could also address some of the ethical dilemmas around assisted dying. After all, a lot of end-of-life care seems to be motivated by a futile attempt to somehow delay the inevitable. From my perspective, cryopreservation seems slightly less futile. If medical technology continues to advance, maybe in the year 2500 there will be people walking around who were born in the 1900s and can give talks about their experiences. Wouldn't that be cool? It would help a lot if just a single country to made it possible to get cryopreserved before you're legally dead.

krapp 1y ago
You're talking about cryonics as if it were an established, scientifically proven and effective technology, but it doesn't work and is widely considered to be pseudoscience. And mentioning the cost of end-of-life care is risible when your alternative is paying paying indefinite rent to a company for freezer space to keep a corpse frozen.
- ares623 1y ago
  I wish billionaires believed in it. Would make the world a much better place.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
  >You're talking about cryonics as if it were an established, scientifically proven and effective technology I don't believe that. I do believe it is a hair less futile than delaying the inevitable and then burying yourself 6 feet underground. >it doesn't work and is widely considered to be pseudoscience. The cryonicist claim is something like: "If we save your brain in a way that preserves its information content, it may be possible for future technology to reconstruct that information content, and effectively revive you." No cryonicist is claiming that cryonics "works" with existing technology. Consider the state of medicine in the year 1925 vs the state of medicine in the year 2025. Now extrapolate that advancement trend forwards until 2525. Is extrapolating trends forward a form of pseudoscience? If so, what do you say about global warming? >And mentioning the cost of end-of-life care is risible when your alternative is paying paying indefinite rent to a company for freezer space to keep a corpse frozen. Keeping a closed canister filled with liquid nitrogen is not especially costly. Alcor charges $80K out of pocket for neuropreservation: https://www.alcor.org/membership/pricing-and-dues/ https://www.alcor.org/membership/pricing-and-dues/ The Lancet says a typical American accumulates $155K in healthcare costs during the last 3 years of their life: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-193X(22)00176-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanam/article/PIIS2667-19... Long-term care costs are rising fast: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/24/business/retirement-long-term-care.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/24/business/retirement-long-... (BTW, I appreciate that you made a falsifiable claim here, since that helps readers evaluate the credibility of your other claims. A sort of within-comment Gell-Mann effect.)

abstractspoon 1y ago

I will, ahem, take steps to ensure I never get dementia

vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago

We definitely need a better culture around dying. My mom is 95 and slowly everything she likes is being taken away from her. Going for a walk is difficult because she has unpredictable falls, husband is dead, all friends are dead, eyesight is so bad she can't read anymore, memory is failing. Really nothing to look forward to. Just existing and waiting for things to get worse. Mentally she is still pretty clear and she often says it would be best if she doesn't wake up in the morning. I think it would be better for everybody if we had a way to have a ceremony where we all say goodbye and then end it.

cauliflower99 1y ago

I mean...is there anyone here who isn't on this bandwagon?

braza 1y ago

I'm totally in favor of assisted suicide, and I think it's a good mechanism for those suffering, if voluntarily chosen. That said, I think the same, and there are some non-obvious second-order effects around it being the menu, especially regarding life extension incentives and if people started to feel guilt-tripped by it. The first thing that comes to mind is a reduction in commitment to the elderly. As soon as health care costs ramp up, people will start to make more decisions based on the economic aspect of the people's support instead of thinking in life extension mechanisms as a natural first choice. Second, it is related to the public health services. From my experience in some parts of EU/America, if you have a disease until your 50s, you will get treatment. However, after that, there are probably some parts of the public/private health system that throttle down the treatments. The 2-week interval between a return if you are 30s/40s, will become 6 weeks if you are over 60s. The next one, the "inheritance social contract," will be changed. As long as folks know that assisted suicide will be placed on the menu, I do not doubt that folks terrified with the possibility of loved ones "not doing enough to keep them alive" will dilute everyone who lifts the gas. And as a second-order, I can see the securitization and life insurance industry will demand insane premiums to cover elderly persons, given that potentially people can lift and coast the treatment for their loved ones, and this can break part of their actuarial models, which, yes, expect people to exhaust resources to keep their elderly alive and not to choose together to pull the plug in a single-digit number of years before. And maybe a third-order effect (in Germany there are some cases) where people with resources (single-digit million real estate + assets) exercise liquidity on it and live the best of their lives after 70 or in some cases, legally marry 30+ nurses to take care of them in the last 3 years and offer a chunk of inheritance, post-death pension, or insurance premium.

tsoukase 1y ago

It's another thing to not give palliative treatment to prolong life for a little more and another to provide poison to accelerate death. My opinion is to continue palliative care when the benefit outweighs the harm in the QUALITY of life (not necessarily quantity) and infuse some morphine 1 or 2 days before death in order to skip the last stage.

scotty79 1y ago

As a person who lost my life partner six years ago to a brain tumor I completely understand what he did. After seeing things first hand I too don't intend to wait for old age and illness to devastate me. I'm barely over half of his age with no serious health issues that I know of so it's not the time for me yet. But I can fully understand his reasoning.

bobjordan 1y ago

This is one reason why as I’ve entered my 50’s, I’ve decided to take every advantage of modern medicine including hormone management and performance enhancing drugs. I started three years ago at 47 and now I’m living my best life at 50, in the best physical condition that I’ve been in since my early twenties. Although I’d certainly like to live a lot more years, I care more about my quality of life than the quantity of years. If I make it to my 80’s, it’ll be with the testosterone of a man in his 20’s and muscle mass on my body.

elizabertchuc 1y ago

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