34 ms·

The $25k car is going extinct?

• 28304283409234 1y ago
  The Honda Fit was discontinued because they're so reliable there are now enough of them to last until the end of humanity. ;-)
• racl101 1y ago
  I suppose in the same way that the five dollar footlong has gone extinct. Inflation.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• bell-cot 1y ago
  Daydream: For types of cars/trucks which are generally unavailable on the American market, tariffs and import restrictions are keep rather modest.
  • HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago
    Would make sense - why protect a market that no US manufacturer seems to want to support! Of course the US manufacturers are hoping that you'll just take out a loan, preferably with them (this is how they make their profit - financing and servicing) and buy something far more expensive than you want/need.
• mouse_ 1y ago
  Dealership near me has got some 2024-25 model Mitsubishis for like 19k new. They look pretty sweet.
  • stn8188 1y ago
    I'm assuming this is the Mirage, which is one of the cars we own for the family (the other is an old Odyssey to fit all the kids). The Mirage is an absolute joy to own: its simple 3cyl engine gets 50mpg if I'm careful. We live in a very rural area (i.e. walking and biking for a big family is impossible and dangerous), so having something economical to drive is a huge help. We drive it any time we aren't taking the whole family somewhere! Of course in the article, I see the Mirage is noted as discontinued. How frustrating.
  • neogodless 1y ago
    Chevrolet Trax can be found between $20-21k USD but... when I look at inventory, nothing within ~75 miles is under $25k. Not a horrible vehicle for the price. Mazda 3 used to be a $20k car (and even less before that) but now starts just over $24k (sedan) / $25k (hatchback).
    • Marsymars 1y ago
      TBF even at $25k the Mazda 3 is probably “nicer” than anything else you can get for that price.
      • neogodless 1y ago
        Absolutely. While I personally don't advocate buying anything new, if you gotta, it's a great way to go. My previous car was a 2015 Mazda 3 Grand Touring bought with 8,000 miles on it for $20k (about $26-27k MSRP new). All the luxuries and bells and whistles!
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• snovymgodym 1y ago
  It's pretty simple (in the US, can't speak for elsewhere). There are 2 big factors at play: 1. Margins. Manufacturers make huge margins on expensive vehicles and very slim margins on cheap vehicles. The numbers differ, but I think even in the lead up to the 2008 crisis automakers had to sell 5-10 "econobox" cars to make the profit they made on one luxury car, SUV, or truck. 2. Normalization of debt. For many Americans, having a monthly car payment in perpetuity is considered acceptable. Car loans have their place and can be used responsibly, but due to marketing, sales tactics, and cultural sensibilities what often ends up happening is that people start from a monthly dollar amount and then work forwards to buy the most expensive vehicle they can, even if it means taking the loan term out to 72 or 84 months. It's also very normal for people to never pay off their car, instead trading in the vehicle after 3-5 years and rolling equity in the loan over to their next car. Obviously, this consumer habit is great for dealers, manufacturers, creditors and buyers of consumer debt, as well as the US Government and investors -- it's just not ideal for the consumers themselves if they're trying to preserve wealth and build savings. These two factors create an environment increasingly hostile to the cheap entry level car. Consumer demand is low since most don't spend responsibly, and automakers don't really want to make or sell them because the margins are so slim.
  • autobodie 1y ago
    the interest on those loans is maddening
    • nradov 1y ago
      Why? Auto loan interest rates are currently below the historical average.
  • msgodel 1y ago
    >having a monthly car payment in perpetuity is considered acceptable. I think that really depends on what part of America. At least where I grew up around a bunch of middle class conservatives listening to eg Dave Ramsey (who has other problems IMO) most people think of you as reckless/irresponsible for doing that sort of thing.
• 999900000999 1y ago
  We don't want affordable Chinese EVs. That's the answer here. They can build cars better, cheaper, faster than we can. Instead Ford wants to sell a 80k SUPER F-250 BIG MANN TRUCK. All for what, you to drive 10 minutes to Walmart, buy groceries and drive back. The best car is the one you don't own. No payments, insurance, parking tickets. Unfortunately most American cities are centered around driving. So much money , and space wasted on these multi ton metal boxes. In many places most(much) of the city is literally just parking spaces.
  • burnt-resistor 1y ago
    F-450 King Ranch Super Deluxe.. all made from plastic and guaranteed not to last longer than 8 years. Most engines of new vehicles are sleeved and cannot be rebuilt in the spirit of designed for manufacturing and profits > designed for durability.
    • timewizard 1y ago
      Yep. Then add in all the regulatory systems. DEF, EGR, Catalytic Converter, Turbo, 10 speed transmissions. They're all fragile and fall out of warranty coverage easily. RAM is apparently going to use plastic control arms in it's new vehicles.
  • paulryanrogers 1y ago
    Cars are a reflection of ones personality here in the Midwest. Some grow out of it or never subscribe to the mentality. It's certainly cheaper to bicycle, weather and health permitting. Though car driving and ownership are a big cultural phenomenon, especially among men 18-50.
    • 999900000999 1y ago
      Depends on the man, I’ll admit in my early twenties I meet a few partners by being car free. I legit took a girl home after I asked her if she knew why the train was late. In Amsterdam at least one of the train stations has a piano. It becomes a 3rd place were people can make friends and socialize. We don’t have many 3rd places in the US where you can exist without spending money.
• BatFastard 1y ago
  https://www.slate.auto/ https://www.slate.auto/ With rebates a 20,000 truck. Who knows what it will cost when it actually comes out. But I love the concept.
  • blacksmith_tb 1y ago
    Also, not a gigantic truck, and no infotainment (or even powered windows!) It'd be a manual transmission if it wasn't an EV.
    • BLKNSLVR 1y ago
      > or even powered windows! An exclamation mark for lacking powered windows? Oh the humanity! I'm starting to see the problem.
      • Dylan16807 1y ago
        An exclamation mark because the feature is cheap and omnipresent, not because of... impact, or whatever you're reading into it. It's surprising. An exclamation mark makes sense.
        • BLKNSLVR 1y ago
          Fair cop. I'll take that.
        • CalRobert 1y ago
          It’s one more thing I’d have to spend an afternoon fixing eventually.
          • Dylan16807 1y ago
            Is it that much less reliable than a crank going into similar mechanisms? And a fixed window is just dire.
  • mlsu 1y ago
• Glawen 1y ago
  Aka how to shoot yourself in the foot and hand over the market to Chinese manufacturer. In Europe, only Renault created a low cost brand (Dacia). Once chinese brands become commonplace everywhere, tradional carmakers will have a hard time taking back market share. In Europe they closed or are closing the last HCOL factories, killing any remaining brand loyalty.
  • AJ007 1y ago
    Yeah, a better title for the article is how western automakers are going to go extinct. Sure the US might decide to block Chinese cars (apparently the EU isn't), but they can't force the rest of the world to buy $65,000 American built cars when the alternatives are less than 1/3rd of that price. A larger question is how much the cheap Chinese cars are dependent on a long chain of government subsidies from the mines to the local infrastructure and what happens when China's investment driven growth cycle comes to an end. If the solar panels are any comparison, the Chinese automakers are losing a lot of money despite grandiose subsidies.
    • defrost 1y ago
      The answer to your question is less and less every year with only sales tax exemption remaining as the greatest support provided. That support did total some US $231 billion over 14 years from 2009 through until 2023. You can see more at: https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dilemma-subsidized-yet-striking https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dil... (June 2024) There are at least two different ways to interpret the data on industrial policy support for EV makers. China’s trading partners could point to 15 years of sustained regulatory and financial support for domestic producers, which has fundamentally altered the playing field to make it much harder for others to compete in China or anywhere else where Chinese EVs are sold. By contrast, defenders of China could point out that the data show that subsidies as a percentage of total sales have declined substantially, from over 40% in the early years to only 11.4% in 2023, which reflects a pattern in line with heavier support for infant industries, then a gradual reduction as they mature. In addition, they could note that the average support per vehicle has fallen from $13,860 in 2018 to just under $4,800 in 2023, which is less than the $7,500 credit that goes to buyers of qualifying vehicles as part of the U.S.’s Inflation Reduction Act. It would be interesting to compare that to Western and US support for fossil fuel cars with substantial government support of the oil and gas industry.
• AlotOfReading 1y ago
  Everything in here matches with my experience in the auto industry, but I don't think it gets the whole truth. Car companies, particularly the American and German brands, make the vast majority of their money from new car buyers and leasers, not the used car market. Over the past few decades, OEMs have focused almost exclusively on serving those customers, to the detriment of virtually everyone else. Those are very different customers than the people who want to buy $25k cars. Worse, even if you do sell that kind of vehicle, it depreciates and goes right back into circulation on the used market competing against the new cars because the customers are ultimately very utilitarian and lack brand loyalty, unlike the higher end customers. You can't even count on those higher end customers to reliably purchase the higher trim models because of the "status" aspects of a cheap car. It's a tough market that OEMs don't want to be in, so they cede it almost entirely to foreign OEMs that haven't moved upmarket yet. Foreign OEMs are structurally incapable of selling cars at those prices (by design), so the bottom end of the market gets hollowed out to nothing but a few "loss leader" vehicles.
• al_borland 1y ago
  The Subaru Impreza starts just under $25k, and comes standard with their EyeSight system for adaptive cruise control, automatic braking, etc.
• paxys 1y ago
  One fact not mentioned in the article - Americans now owe $1.64 trillion in auto loans, and cars make up 9% of all consumer debt in the country. In fact we now owe more on cars than student loans. The average loan term is rising - almost 6 years now. 60-day delinquency on auto loans is at 6.6%, the highest ever recorded, and is as high as 9% in some states. So while car prices keep going up, people also keep going deeper into debt to buy one they can't afford. You can blame manufacturers or banks, but ultimately the problem is unchecked consumerism and treating cars as a status symbol, which is sadly pervasive in this country.
  • philistine 1y ago
    As if the car was ever only a utilitarian commodity at any point in its history. The car has always been a status symbol.
  • JKCalhoun 1y ago
    When, as the article says, the $25k car is going extinct, I do blame manufacturers and banks (and the dealerships).
    • leakycap 1y ago
      Almost all cars have turbos, all have abs/airbags/cameras... even counting the seat foam & covers, wheels, door cars... how cheap do you think a vehicle safe and comfortable for humans can be? The average car has tons of moving parts that have to be weatherproof, shakeproof, pothole-ready... stuff consumer tech doesn't dream of. It also has to be repairable, be engineered to meet all the regulations in various countries so the manufacturer doesn't make 15 versions for different countries... A lot of things are overpriced in the world; I'm not sure cars in general are high on this list. If you want a car similar to a high end 2015 car, the 2025 Jetta has more than anything you could have gotten in 2015 and I'd say with inflation the price is lower today when you account for inflation. I had a Jetta as a service loaner recently and it drove great. $25k cars are still out there, you just can't get a $25k 4Runner.
      • puzzlingcaptcha 1y ago
• denkmoon 1y ago
  welp, guess my corolla needs to last until I die. I spent about $9k usd (in australia though) on it second hand pre covid and I'm just gobsmacked at the prices of vehciles now even years post covid. I make good coin and I just can't see how non-"enthusiasts" can justify spending so much money on their vehicle. there are houses in my suburb with 3-4 of these expensive, new model cars out front.
  • aprilthird2021 1y ago
    If Australia is like the US, all those cars are leases or debt-financed
    • nikcub 1y ago
      It is. From Australia's largest Toyota dealer I know that ~70% of new car sales are financed. A proportion of the rest would be funded by home equity but that is harder to measure. An interesting trend that I've heard from multiple dealership (friends and family) - the number of people being rejected for financing has dramatically increased in the past 12 months. There are some dealership areas now where a third of applicants are being turned down.
  • sien 1y ago
    Cars are the worst spending many, perhaps most people make. It's remarkable in Australia how many people are borrowing and paying much more for them as well. Driving a Corolla, Mazda 2, Kia Rio or something can save so much money. These days these are remarkably good cars too.
    • elcritch 1y ago
      One downside in the US of driving a small car now is considerably more lethal in a crash with larger vehicles. I drive a Mazda 3 and sometimes it feels like a bicycle compared to some of the enormous SUV and overdone trucks.
  • marcus_holmes 1y ago
    Gotta spend all that FIFO money on something, and a new car makes them feel good about their shitty FIFO situation.
• chasd00 1y ago
  The sweet spot has always been a 1 year old used car with low miles. There’s lots of those for less than or about $25k. Honda, Toyota, and Mazda have models in those ranges that will easily last a decade.
  • freedomben 1y ago
    I've bought a couple of those and never again. They're usually former rental cars and people best the shit out of them. I've had so many stupid things break
    • aprilthird2021 1y ago
      I bought a 1 year old used model and it's worked for me for 10 years now. Ymmv. Maybe worth getting a mechanic to look before buying
      • freedomben 1y ago
        Mine were all "Certified Pre-owned" so had dealerships go through them and even had a (small and toothless) warranty attached.
  • resoluteteeth 1y ago
    1 year old used cars are inevitably going to get more expensive as new cars get more expensive (or cheaper new cars cease being made)
  • brandall10 1y ago
    Even better, a 3 year old used car with low miles. In 2016 I picked up a 2013 320i Sport w/ 22k miles on the clock for $18.5k. The sticker on the car was just over $36k. I did have to fly to a relatively remote town (Ogden Utah) and drive it home to San Diego, so that was an extra $320 for the plane ticket/shuttle/gas and 14 hours out of a saturday. It was almost out of warranty, so pre-purchase I paid a local shop $110 to do a similar inspection to what BMW does for CPO and it only needed brake pads. Aside from the brake pads and scheduled maintenance, eventually replaced the tires, so about $2000 in maintenance over that period. Sold it for $14.5k w/ 50k on the clock 6 years later. Could have held onto it much longer but was eager to do the nomad thing as covid was clearing up.
• tanh 1y ago
  I am pretty sure these cars still exist in Japan at roughly the same price point. I'm not talking about kei cars, either.
• everdrive 1y ago
  In 2014 I got a very nice and very basic brand new sedan for about $14k. That's not so long ago, but the car market in the US seems to get worse every year. (cost, newer models are bloated and overly-expensive, etc.) My only advice would be to buy now (ideally something used) since I can only imagine things will be even worse in a few years.
  • Schnitz 1y ago
    Yup, we bought a new base model Corolla in 2016 and there’s no sensible way to upgrade or get something nicer. We put 70k miles on it in 9 years. We’ve looked into upgrading more than once, we could easily afford it, but anything that would be a true upgrade (bigger and nicer) is just such a ridiculous waste of money given how inflated car prices have been since Covid. Add to that that the nicer car will then also be much more expensive to keep on the road…and it just makes no sense.
• notesinthefield 1y ago
  The closest thing to affordable and comfortable I could find this past year after maintenance costs pilling up on my ‘15 Ford Fiesta (that I got for a staggering $14k post college) was a Honda HRV Sport. Has all the basics, incredible sensing system, lots of space decent gas mileage and drives well at around 28k in Ohio. My partner has an Accord and honestly its a better car. Incredibly good gas mileage, reliable, perfect for an A to B person that doesnt want to worry about their car.
• briandw 1y ago
  They don't mention the amount of mandatory additions to the car from government regulations. Obviously not the only factor but it's certainly a factor. Cars now have 6 to 8 airbags, backup cameras, more high strength steel, automatic breaking systems etc etc. I love the safety that those all bring, but it's not free.
  • neogodless 1y ago
    > automatic breaking systems Literal planned obsolescence!
    • ReptileMan 1y ago
      Or just being BMW. They also break automatically. No need for government mandated feature.
    • briandw 1y ago
      my dyslexia strikes again
  • WillPostForFood 1y ago
    Also a lot more complexity under the hood to meet mileage standards - CVT or 8 speed automatic transmissions, turbo chargers, stop-start tech, etc...
• zbrozek 1y ago
  I wonder if there's a business model in leasing cars from Mexico to Americans and swapping around once a year to get around the problem of having Mexican plates. Then you can get Chinese cars into America.
  • nebula8804 1y ago
    This made me laugh out loud thank you. They will clamp down on this so fast though. If its something that will help the average joe it will never get done but something like this threatens leadership so it will get shut down in record time. If theres any Chinese entrepreneurs that have a line into their EV companies reading this, use some of that China speed and get on this now. You might as well squeeze out a little profit before they clamp it down! :D
• aorloff 1y ago
  Nobody else has said it so I guess I will. The reason the US car industry does not want a $25k car is that the financing opportunities are crap for a car of this low cost. In the same way that airlines exist to offer you a miles based credit card, the US car dealerships survive by offering you a loan for the car. Or perhaps, a car to go with your structured finance opportunity.
  • haskellandchill 1y ago
    proud owner of a financed 2024 manual nissan versa here :) but yeah the dealership made almost no money and I put down a deposit when it was a couple months from coming in at a location far from where I live. it's a $20k car though.
    • droopyEyelids 1y ago
      There was a finance charge on your loan that was probably around $1k so that's 5% the dealer made right there instantly for no work
  • BLKNSLVR 1y ago
    Could this be stated as perverse incentives as a result of attempts to differentiate from cookie-cutter-identical competitors? Whereby the profit shifts from the product itself to the differentiating value-add.
  • SoftTalker 1y ago
    Buy the best used car you can afford for cash and forget all that dealership nonsense
    • financypants 1y ago
      The small and quasi-loophole to getting a good used car deal is buying a hail damage car. I genuinely don't understand why cars were made to have shiny paint. Cars drive on dirty roads with insects and pebbles abound. Paint doesn't matter. Car washes are crazy, except to abait rust
• maxglute 1y ago
  Problem is a 40k car interior feels worse than a 15k Chinese car. The Koreans are trying, but like Samsung, not too hard.
• standardUser 1y ago
  Americans like to upgrade their cars, not unlike their cell phones, and they often have a monthly car payment (or two) that never permanently goes away. That makes some sense to me, but if the goal is to always have a nice car, doesn't it makes much more sense to lease? The monthly payments will be a few hundred bucks less and you can upgrade every 2-3 years. And from what I understand, leasing agents like to give incentives after your first lease to keep you in the cycle. Personally, if I were aiming for the most economical option, I'd lease a Nissan Leaf for ~$300/mo.
  • timewizard 1y ago
    Read that lease contract carefully. It's meant for a very narrow segment of drivers.
    • standardUser 1y ago
      Yeah, it's for people without crazy commutes. It's not as cryptic as you want to make it seem.
  • AdieuToLogic 1y ago
    > ... but if the goal is to always have a nice car, doesn't it makes much more sense to lease? The monthly payments will be a few hundred bucks less and you can upgrade every 2-3 years. Leasing a car always includes an initial payment (in the several thousands) and typically have severe penalties for exceeding allotted mileage, any damage (even if only cosmetic), and/or if mandatory dealer maintenance is not adhered. The monthly payments are not as disparate as one might think when the initial payment is amortized over the course of the lease along with dealer maintenance expenditures.
• jccalhoun 1y ago
  in 2021 my beloved Honda Fit got totaled. I bought it new in 09 and only had 80K miles on it. They don't sell new ones in North America any more. So I bought a Kia Rio. They don't make those any more. I don't really like it but with the current chaos in the economy I'm not trading it in any time soon. I was in the UK for the first time last month and was struck by how many hatchbacks and sedans they have that we don't in North America.
  • cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    The dwindling of small hatchbacks in the US is so disappointing it’s difficult to put into words. They were the perfect little suburb grocery grabbers, and now you can’t buy them without overpaying for a used one. The next best thing is a sedan that’s longer and harder to maneuver and park despite having markedly worse cargo space and utility, and to get a hatch (not just a liftback) you’re forced into crossovers/SUVs which carry a chunky price premium. What I wouldn’t do to bring the Fit and Yaris hatch back to the US market.
    • s0rce 1y ago
      If you want AWD a crosstrek or impreza are good little hatchbacks, ignore the "cross" in the name, its much more hatchback than it is a mini-SUV. It is sad that so many of the other little hatchbacks are gone (ex. fit, vibe, etc).
    • nradov 1y ago
      You can buy a Subaru Impreza hatchback.
      • parpfish 1y ago
        the impreza's feels long enough that it is more of a "wagon" than a "hatchback"
        • nradov 1y ago
          The Subaru Levorg is the actual wagon version of the same platform. Unfortunately it's not available in the US market.
• throwaway173738 1y ago
  Is anyone else thinking of buying a used panel van instead of a pickup now that they’re so tall you need a ladder to climb into the bed?
  • ARandomerDude 1y ago
    I have one and it’s awesome. You also don’t have to worry about someone snatching items out of the bed. The biggest downsides are (1) I’m reluctant to put anything gross back there (vs throwing a trash bag in the bed like I used to with my truck), and (2) people see a van, assume you’ll drive obnoxiously slowly, and preemptively cut you off in traffic lest they get stuck behind you. Overall, the pros outweigh those 2 cons for me.
    • namibj 1y ago
      Against 2, speed flames could help? Though they may have net-negative effect on safety for obvious reasons.
• AdieuToLogic 1y ago
  IIRC, at one point Ford priced the Model T (which ultimately became the Ford Taurus decades later) to be at or near the US individual average annual income and maintained this price structure throughout. With last year's lowest (by state) average annual income being Mississippi at $45k, there is little reason for any car manufacturer to produce a $25k MSRP vehicle.
• laidoffamazon 1y ago
  It’s mass affluence. People are just willing to pay $30k+ new now - something that was a lot rarer even 10 years ago.
• zeroq 1y ago
  Last year we bought a car. While not being a petrol head I was still living in a lala land where you could buy a brand new car for 10k EUR. Nothing fancy, just "a car". Obviously it turned out to be not true. After some digging it turned out that in the last 10 years the price of cars went double. Literally double. Same car, like Fiat Panda, with the same engine and configuration, that ten years was worth one potato is now worth exactly two potato. Long story short, the entry level car now costs close to 25k EUR. [1] But here's the kicker. While subvenstions seem to fail in most cases for regular people - like gvt giving people money to buy apartements equals to apartments being equally more expensive - it seems to work wonders for automotive thanks to Chinese. EU offers up to 10k EUR subvention for electric cars and with that in mind you can get something like BYD Dolphin for slighly less than 20k EUR. Which is mind blowing. The car is comparable to Volvo XC40. Of course this is just an example and there is plentiful of other options. [1] If you're not familiar or comfortable with EUR just think 1 EUR is 1 USD and you'll be fine.
  • tricolon 1y ago
    I'd never seen the word "subvention" before. Today I learned it's another way to say "subsidy".
    • zeroq 1y ago
      here's a list of words that will help you communicate better with Elbonians: sympathetic - pleasent pathetic - exalted eventually - alternatively actually - currently lecture - reading fabric - factory
    • ml_basics 1y ago
      It's a europeanism. In both French and German (and probably other EU languages) the word for "subsidy" is something like "subvention" so native speakers of these language often reach for an unnatural word in English. Btw other examples include "actually" which is used to mean "currently", and "eventually" which is used to mean "maybe". Personally I'm torn whether to consider this incorrect use of the language as it is quite widespread. Maybe it would be better to consider this as the emergence of a new dialect.
• sakopov 1y ago
  I was in the market looking for a used SUV for my wife to haul around our kids last year. Dealing with dealers who wouldn't budge even a few hundred off the inflated listing prices, the interest rates on financing and then the insane insurance costs was not pleasant. I have an old Subaru beater that I was also thinking about upgrading but after this whole fiasco I decided to spend some money to fix body and small mechanical issues myself and drive this thing another 10 years hopefully. It's just not worth it.
  • BLKNSLVR 1y ago
    Subaru's have an increasingly good reputation for long-term reliability. Stick with and love the beater. I find a certain liberation in not caring too much about risks of car park dents and "curb rash" and other surface-only non-mechanical auto-maladies.
    • financypants 1y ago
      Free yourself from the worry of shopping cart dings today! My solution was buying a hail damage car.
    • brianaker 1y ago
      You obviously have not been following Subaru, while what you are saying was once true, it has not been true for several years now. Google "Subaru battery", read about all of the additional electrical problems that are the result of Subaru being unwilling to fix a problem that is the end result of them selling your data. Subaru stopped making reliable cars somewhere around 2014.
      • BLKNSLVR 1y ago
        That's very useful to know, thank you!
  • redwall_hp 1y ago
    Yeah, haggling over used cars is dead and buried. The market doesn't accommodate it in a world where there's more demand for used than ever. 1. More people got priced out of new cars. 2. More people are driving their cars longer. 3. Caravana and other online predatory loan machines are outpaying dealerships for cars, and flipping them for nearly credit card level interest rates. Also, us millennials don't want to deal with that shit anyway. List the price, keep it near KBB value and you have a deal.
• Noelia- 1y ago
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• blendo 1y ago
  People like cars that can go 80-90 mph for hundreds and hundreds of miles while carrying 4 people. With crash protection. Add electrics with thousand lbs of batteries, and you've got today's 4000-6000 lb SUVs, all costing an arm and a leg.
  • Dylan16807 1y ago
    Focusing just on gas cars: People wanted that ten years ago too (and twenty and thirty), so what changed?
  • dagw 1y ago
    People like cars that can go 80-90 mph for hundreds and hundreds of miles while carrying 4 people. With crash protection. My 12 year old entry level sedan does all of that no problem.
• jimmar 1y ago
  The article compares 2025 prices to 2019 prices. We've had high inflation building upon high inflation for the past several years, so I'm not shocked that prices are higher. We might as well ask where the $1 menu went at fast food restaurants. Yesterday's prices are long gone.
• lastofthemojito 1y ago
  Electric vehicles eliminated the need for manufacturers to sell (usually small and cheap) efficient ICE cars in the US. For years, CAFE regulations have meant that manufacturers must meet minimum fleet fuel economy averages or else pay fines. In order to sell more profitable but less fuel-efficient F-150s, Ford also needed to sell little Fiestas or Focuses. In order to sell Suburbans, Chevy also needed to sell Cavaliers or Sonics. But now that Ford can sell Mustang Mach-Es and Chevy can sell Blazer EVs for 50 or 60 grand AND get credit for something like 100 MPG equivalent, there's no longer any incentive for them to spend huge sums developing cheap cars that will net tiny profits (if any).
  • ggm-at-algebras 1y ago
    if you don't believe in market regulations, this is confirming evidence of the distortions of trying to regulate an open market. If you believe in climate change, this is evidence of how the vested interest behind profit in cars manipulates the intent of the regulations, to continue to get what they want. It's a bit fish/bicycle, but the point is, we wanted more people to drive smaller, cheaper, less polluting cars. We didn't want the car manufacturers to find ways of maximising sell, including boosting F150 and F250 class truck sales to mummies on the kindy run.
    • DangitBobby 1y ago
      Sounds like something a functional Congress could address after the flaws in the legislation became evident. Then, they keep revising it as manufactures try to do anything but comply. If it costs the manufacturers engineering money to try to circumvent the intent of the regulation, they learn to follow the intent instead. It's not so much an argument against regulation as it is against a dysfunctional Congress. I don't think anyone was rooting for that anyway.
    • toast0 1y ago
      > It's a bit fish/bicycle, but the point is, we wanted more people to drive smaller, cheaper, less polluting cars. We didn't want the car manufacturers to find ways of maximising sell, including boosting F150 and F250 class truck sales to mummies on the kindy run. Unfortunately, the whole thing wasn't built right for the goal. Setting the mpg bar lower for bigger footprint vehicles is on the one side realistic, but on the other side made it hard to build compliant small vehicles. Small trucks in particular disappeared; some say the market wasn't there, but annual sales of the Ford Ranger were pretty decent in 2005-2010 [1]. 2005 was more than the rest, but there were a couple facelifts, and the Chevy S-10 ended production in 2004, so there was probably some spillover from that. (The 2005-2012 Chevy Colorado isn't significantly bigger than the S-10 though). Post the mid 2010s, small trucks basically don't exist, even when small truck names are used. Supposedly Toyota and Subaru are going to bring one back, but we'll see if it happens. Some sort of special small car class, with benefits, would be needed. Like the kei cars in Japan. Maybe not that small, and maybe not that small of an engine, but that idea of a smaller than normal footprint, but still highway capable, if only just. There is a federal 'low speed vehicle' thing, but the restriction to streets with speed limits 35 mph or less makes it hard to go anywhere in a lot of places. It's not a reasonable alternative to a regular car for most. There's also some recent push to formalize legal use of kei cars in many US states, but federal import restrictions mean they do have to be fairly old (or have expensive and destructive testing), which further restricts the market. [1] https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-ranger-sales-figures/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/ford-ranger-sales-figures/
• leakycap 1y ago
  There are few cars I would want to buy in today's market. Cost cutting and price engineering is pervasive, even in extremely high-end cars.
• deadbabe 1y ago
  $25k car is a used car. It’s not even endangered.
• doppp 1y ago
  You guys get cars for under six figures? Haha nice, cries in Singapore
  • ArtemZ 1y ago
    But why do you need a car in Singapore? I can't take my kid to school or buy groceries without a car here, it is a basic necessity and I hate it. But you have amazing transit and high density.
    • finolex1 1y ago
      Tourists get this impression by staying in the city centre. However, if you live in an outer neighborhood, what would be a 15 min car ride can easily become a 40 minute journey on public transport if you have to walk to the train station, take the train, and perhaps take a bus for the last mile. Now imagine you have a kid in tow or an elderly parent. Yes, public transit is not a necessity here like in the States, but it's a nice convenience to have, and plenty of people are wealthy enough to pay for it.
      • ozgrakkurt 1y ago
        40 minutes still sounds very very good. Your daily commute time to work would be less than 1.5 hours for example.
• slg 1y ago
  I don't know why inflation is dismissed so quickly. The article lists the industry average price increase as 29.2% and the inflation value I got out of the US Bureau of Labor Statistics calculator[1] was 26.2%. So sure, "this isn’t just a case of inflation affecting the entire vehicle market" [emphasis mine], but it is mostly that. [1] - https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
  • dingaling 1y ago
    Retail inflation is based on the prices of goods, including new cars. So it's pointless to compare car prices to inflation because they are part of the basis of the measure. Hence why they track closely.
    • anon7000 1y ago
      Then it’s pointless to compare nearly anything to inflation, which means inflation isn’t very useful. You can still find many product categories increasing in price more slowly than inflation. Some much higher than inflation. So it is useful to compare inflation
      • ajkjk 1y ago
        But the question we're asking is why the price of cars went up. "Inflation" isn't an answer. Inflation is what we call the price of cars going up. It still happens for a reason...
        • jonny_eh 1y ago
          Except that inflation isn't just the price of cars. The fact that car prices have gone up faster than "overall" inflation is significant.
          • chii 1y ago
            cars inflating faster than overall/average inflation of the economy is significant. I suspect the reason is that a car's parts are numerous, and because specific inflation affects different components, there's a good chance that a car's component has more inflation than other products in the economy. And because inflation has an expectation driven aspect, suppliers that know inflation is happening is going to raise their prices more to combat it pre-emtively. This happens throughout the entire supply chain. Thus, the end result is that a car's inflationary pressure is higher. But that's just a theory - an inflation theory...
• speeder 1y ago
  Last time I bought a car, my family kept pushing me to buy new, avoid used. All new cars were crap and expensive. People wanted me to buy a Hyundai HB20 with a crappy engine that couldn't climb the hill where my house was located. I ended buying a used Mitsubishi Lancer GT, the thing had same engine as Evo (minus the turbo), leather seats, roof window, rear camera and so on. For half of the price of the HB20. Sadly Mitsubishi discontinued those and went on to join the SUVmania where your cheapest car is a big as a SUV externally, but that has cramped interior and none of SUV features.
  • dangus 1y ago
    You put to words what I intuitively feel about the auto industry. Most brands have cost cut the crap out of their vehicles to the point where many used models seem to be better vehicles especially when talking interior quality. One example that was striking to me was the interior quality of the MK4 Volkswagen Jetta compared to later models of Jetta and Golf. My current vehicle has CarPlay/Android Auto, a “dumb” infotainment system with no ability to phone home or snitch on me to insurance companies, and it has physical controls for everything. When it comes time to replace my vehicle, what am I going to find on the market that’s actually better than that? I’m going to be stuck with a gigantic touch screen and a bunch of glitchy safety suites that are beeping at me constantly.
• jmyeet 1y ago
  In 2080, Apple introduced the Macbook Air. The first version was a mixed bag. The 2010 revision was a game-changer. Competitors just couldn't compete with the hardware you got for $1200 (13"). It was an excellentcompromise between power, weight, efficiency and price. This lasted years. After awhile, 4GB of RAM was light and a non-Retina display was somewhat lacking but it was still good. A $1000 laptop is almost disposable compared to a $3000+ laptop. But this created a problem for Apple: it was too cheap. About a decade ago, the cult of thinness took over. The Air was replaced by the 12" Macbook that was too underpowered. It only had 1 port, which doubled as a power connector. We got the (awful) butterfly keyboard. And of course we got the Touch Bar. Rumor has it that this all happened because Johnny Ive no longer had Steve Jobs pushing back against him. All of these things only existed to increase the ASP (average selling price) of Macbooks. There's no other reason. My point here is that companies don't want to produce cheap, quality, commoditized goods. They want high prices (because that means high profits). Apple didn't want cheap Macbooks. Car manufacturers don't want cheap cars. This is how capitalism works. Worse though is that these high prices are used as a weapon to drive down wages. These auto makers will say "our labor costs are too high" and try and reduce wages and/or remove benefits, often under the threat of moving jobs overseas. Then you dig a little deeper and find out that about 5% of a car's sticker price is labor costs. The chase for ever-increasing profits ultimately means cutting costs and increasing prices. Always.
  • rsynnott 1y ago
    > But this created a problem for Apple: it was too cheap. About a decade ago, the cult of thinness took over. The Air was replaced by the 12" Macbook that was too underpowered. It only had 1 port, which doubled as a power connector. The 12" MacBook did _not_ replace the Air; it was a niche within a niche. The Air continues to be Apple's best-selling laptop, and starts at $999 (the $1200 price you give in 2010 is equivalent to about $1800 adjusted for inflation). (In retrospect the 12" MacBook seems like a clear mistake, but at the time there was a bit of a bubble in subnotebooks, and Intel was making lavish promises for its ultra-low-power chip lines which turned out to be nonsense.) > We got the (awful) butterfly keyboard. And of course we got the Touch Bar. Only in the expensive laptops; the Air continued to be the cheap option.
• puzzlingcaptcha 1y ago
  You can still buy a new subcompact car (like a Renault Clio or Skoda Fabia) in Europe for under 20k EUR. The more interesting question is why these cars disappeared in the US. And while many of the factors discussed here are true for both EU and US (inflation, interest rates, manufacturer profit margins etc) I am surprised no one mentioned the 'SUV loophole' of US regulations that effectively boosted the SUVs (off-road vehicles are classified as non-passenger automobiles with everything that entails, notably much less stringent emission standards) and made the small cars unprofitable to make in comparison.
  • radicaldreamer 1y ago
    Spot on. most cars sold in the US are actually light trucks.
    • Propelloni 1y ago
      Not to mention that those subcompacts of today are as large as a compact car of 30 years ago.
  • troupo 1y ago
    Small cars are disappearing in the EU as well. E.g. Audi will discontinue (or have already discontinued) their A1 model (and it was the perfect little car).
    • yourusername 1y ago
      The smallest class like the Daihatsu Cuore are already gone. The small cars that are left are significantly larger than the former version that shared the same nameplate. For example the Yaris is a SUV now. Can't really blame the manufacturers. The EU requires so much equipment on cars that you can't really turn a profit on a $10k car (like the Aygo/C1/107 was ~10 years ago). So if your car is going to cost $20k because of all the stuff it has to have it might as well be a bit bigger.
      • ricardobeat 1y ago
• raxxorraxor 1y ago
  Car manufacturers that cannot build affordable cars are going extinct. 12000$ for a new electric car in China. That is the real competition. I don't care about the prestige of owning a car, it is a utility for me that will never be worth 60000$. You can pay me 500000$ yearly and I would reconsider.
  • lm28469 1y ago
    > 12000$ for a new electric car in China. That is the real competition. And then people cry when their entire industry is moved overseas...
    • raxxorraxor 1y ago
      I get that they dump loans and the government allows for subsidies. But on the other hand car manufacturers already outsourced everything they could to other countries for larger profit margins anyway. They act no different than companies like Apple or Google. So at least as a customer I need to profit from that too, I have no interest of paying large margins for nothing. Why should only companies profit from cheap labor?
      • lm28469 1y ago
        The problem is that on the long run you lose the knowledge to produce physical goods locally, all it takes is a few years and once it's gone it's extremely hard to build it back. The other problem is that if there is a war, a pandemic or anything impacting production and/or deliveries your country is now alone. If 80% of your economy is based on tourism and other services but what you now need are cars, masks or weapon parts you're in for a bad time > I get that they dump loans and the government allows for subsidies. It's the same in the US/EU, all these companies would have died long ago if they were not propped up now and then
        • raxxorraxor 1y ago
          I wouldn't advocate outsourcing labor to cheaper countries. That this is how it ends was predictable for the automotive industry, so I don't really feel sympathy if they cry now. As a consumer I just want to have the cheap prices now too because outsourcing is a fait acompli.
• valeg 1y ago
  It's hard to compete with the used car market. Aptera's Solar EV start at $26,800 (allegedly).
• v5v3 1y ago
  277+ comment on this thread when we all know the answer - cars are deliberately over priced, at full price level, so the monthly finance payments relative to depreciation forecasts look good to the buyers (renters) and there is a room for negotiations and offers. Its HubSpot Marketing that is the winner here.
  • sexy_seedbox 1y ago
    HubSpot stock isn't doing so well this year, gotta get their name out there to hopefully get some conversions for their overpriced product.
• ganarajpr 1y ago
  Dont know if this is available in US and Europe markets but I would consider Mahindra XEV 9e, BE 6E and BE 9E to be in the $25k segment and afaik, they are the best in the class for that price point ( in terms of looks and maybe even features ). I dont know if these are being exported out of India right now, but they definitely should be hitting the US and UK markets sometime soon.
• mdavid626 1y ago
  In 2004 my parents bought a brand new Skoda Fabia with 40kW engine (around 50hp). The car was pretty basic (no AC, no display etc.) and small, but it served our family of 4 for long time (still does!). The cost was 12.000 Euros. Nowadays the same car starts at 20.000 Euros.
  • Eavolution 1y ago
    To be fair that's with 20 years of inflation (roughly 1.55x since 2004, €18,600 today), and that car today would have 90+bhp. I'm ignoring things like head unit/ac because they're things you'd probably rather not have and not pay for by the sounds of it.
• DoingIsLearning 1y ago
  Another financial point with impact on birth rates and demographics. It is now very difficult (I can count with my fingers) to find a <100k car that can have 3 child seats in a row. Or that can sit 7 people that is not a SUV pedestrian child killer.
• pattle 1y ago
  Spending $25k on a car (if they exist) is just an insane thing to do in my opinion. In the UK we are quite lucky in that the used car market is very good. I always just buy a ~£1,000 diesel and run it into the ground, then rinse and repeat. I think in 17 years of motoring I've spent around £5,500 in total on cars.
  • BanterTrouble 1y ago
    It is a shame people run them into the ground. If looked after and a bit of money (not a lot of money) spent they would work well for another decade or two.
    • aembleton 1y ago
      Its more expensive with the cost of labour in the UK to keep a car going, especially once it starts needing welding. We apply a lot of salt to the roads in the winter so after 20 years most cars will need welding work. Second hand cars are also cheaper in the UK compared to other countries because we're right hand drive so there aren't as many markets that they can be exported to second hand.
      • BanterTrouble 1y ago
        I live in the UK. Cars aren't that cheap (at least for something half decent), labour costs are dependant on what is being done. While the roads do get salted, rust is more dependant on the vehicle model. Also there are preventative measures you can take that aren't that expensive again rust.
        • aembleton 1y ago
          I found this video informative about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjMyx24pxTo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjMyx24pxTo He's a second hand car dealer in Stockport and has experience of selling cars in Spain and in California.
          • 1y ago
• 0791444520 1y ago
  [flagged]
• BanterTrouble 1y ago
  I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated. The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand. e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what you would find in a door bell and finding faults is normally just tracing wires and using a multi-meter. I had issues with the brake lights / reverse lights not working, the issue turned out that the spade like connector in the fuse box was pushed through and was making partial contact. Price to fix this was £0. EDIT: Just remembered this isn't accurate. I had to buy a new reverse light. The entire reverse light assembly was ~£20. So the price to fix was about £20. The light assembly itself was like a big bicycle light. My newer car needs a OB-II scanner to diagnose anything with a phone app. While this is arguably quicker it can be misleading. Sometimes it will be telling you that something is malfunctioning but it is really the sensor itself. These sensors are £200-£300 a piece. Replacing 4 glow plug sensors cost me £800. I was paying essentially to make the "you must service your engine" light to go away. There was nothing wrong with engine itself.
  • LightBug1 1y ago
    Same ... I'm still running an early 2000's Toyota and got myself a VW Beetle 1969 just for the fun of it ... love maintaining them as they're so simple and rewarding and parts are cheap! ... And I can in no way be called a mechanic. I've been lusting over the ioniq 5 for a couple of years but I'm just thinking, in 10 years time I'll be knee deep in your last paragraph ... I like long lasting cars
    • BanterTrouble 1y ago
      Yep. There a bunch of minor issues with my vehicle that I was procrastinating on, but the brakes lights not working is very illegal and unsafe, so that had to be fixed before I drove it. Was really pleased once I realised what the issue and managed to fix it. All the newer cars feel like iPods with wheels and the driving experience is horrible. I am not interested in them.
  • 1y ago
• medion 1y ago
  This is all part of the continuing trend toward luxury - brands are abandoning the middle class and below, focusing on higher margins and lower volume - brands make more money, engage with easier buyers and have to work less. I don’t know how all this works in the end but it does seem to be a real trend.
• the_real_cher 1y ago
  Spending $25,000 for a car sounds insane to me.
• Ozzie_osman 1y ago
  The US seems insulated from the downward pricing pressure of Chinese cars. In most of the rest of the world, you can get a Chinese car ~30% (by my estimate) cheaper than a European or American one. It'll probably have more options and additions, too. I'm not sure how they'd do on reliability or safety, but it's generally hard to compete with them. Some of them offer 1M kilometer 10-year warranties.
• blacklion 1y ago
  I cannot reply to each comment which mention "EU" or "Europe", so I write this one. Why do you speak about EU/Europe as a whole? There is no such thing. I thought it is, but, now, when I moved to "Europe", I see that ti was illusion. Prices are different across countries. Do you think Poland, Portugal and the Netherlands have same prices? HA! Compare prices in the Netherlands and its neighbor Belgium. I didn't compare prices for (new) cars, but I did for new motorcycles. Difference can be up to 20%. And it is two of three countries which are known as "Benelux", not two countries on different edges of EU. Choice is difference between countries too, there are models which are present in one country and not in the orthers. Heck, even selection of a food is drastically different in two Lidls (two supermarkets of same chain) on different sides of Netherlands/Germany border in 10km vicinity! Many people say that they see that almost all new cars they see are BYD & others — there is no BYD in Netherlands, for example. There is Lynk & Co (which is Volvo / Geely / Zeekr), and it's all of Chinese brands. There is no such single entity as "Europe" or "EU". Different countries are very different in available goods, prices, taxes and regulations. Yes, there are global things, like GDPR or emission regulations (Euro 5/Euro 6), but still there are a plenty room for difference. And even "single economic area" is illusion: you cannot simply register car or motorcycle bought in Portugal or Belgium in the Netherlands, you need to pay local VAT, local ecological taxes, etc. So no, there is no "lifehack to buy car or motorcycle in Belgium and save 20%.
  • benjiro 1y ago
    The "lifehack to buy car or motorcycle in Belgium and save 20%" is a Dutch only problem, as the Dutch Government makes car (and house) ownership extreme expensive. There is a reason why so many better off Dutch people buy properties and cars across the border, live in Belgium or Germany, and travel each day to work in the Netherlands. For the rest of the EU, you can buy a Polish car, and register it in Germany for a few hundred euro's. And FYI: The united states is the same. You can not just move cars across states if you live in a different state. It requires local registration per state (with different requirements), and local number plates. Second: Yes, prices can differ for the same car, in different countries. And manufactures deliberately make it harder to price compare cars by changing the trim on each car / region. So the same car in Germany may have more features that are not present on the same car in Poland. And yet, again, in the States prices often differ per state. For the same reason why a Polish car can be trimmed down to be cheaper, vs a German version of the car: Not every state has the same medium income. So car manufacture / dealers, price match the cars and options, according to the local demographic. The rest is a useless discussion as this is regional food, vs regional companies. You may discover that in the US, despite the same global brandnames, there are often large differences between stores, based upon the regional eating habits, and local food producers. Yes, there is more standardization because of the global monopoly level of food production but regional is still a major thing. > There is no such single entity as "Europe" or "EU". Different countries are very different in available goods, prices, taxes and regulations. First off, its EU, not Europe. People simply associate the EU with Europe. That is a common issue and not something to nitpick about. You may be surprised how much we already standardized across the EU. Have you ever left the Netherlands? I mean, not just cross border travel but actual work / live? If you did that now, 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, each time the difference are huge (as in easier and easier). A lot of laws and rules are now standardized across the EU. Hell, i remember the days that getting a piece of paper involved notarization and legalization, now its just a quick call to the ambt and you get a EU version of the paperwork. Valid in all EU states.
• logifail 1y ago
  $25k ?! The last car I bought cost just less than $12k USD new ( on the road including all taxes and fees) around 5 years ago. I know inflation's been high, but not it's not been that high.
  • kleiba 1y ago
    > around 5 years ago The article is specifically about the price increase in the last 6 years.
    • logifail 1y ago
      > The article is specifically about the price increase in the last 6 years My point is that six years ago the cheapest new cars cost less, in many cases a lot less, than $25k. The article itself lists several examples.
• kleiba 1y ago
  I'm not about this whole discussion - go to your favorite car sales website and filter for new cars and, say, 20,000 Euros. I see roughly 7000 cars for sale in Germany on mobile.de - of course, a lot of them will be instances of the same type of car, but there is variety and offers from multiple brands, both international and European.
• pastullo 1y ago
  I'm personally super upset with basically all non-Chinese brands. They used the post-covid inflation to drive prices up and like many people are saying here, now the 12k entry-level car is a 25k car. I bought a brand new VW T-Cross in 2021 for 19k and now the entry price is 27k, for the same exact car. It's insane. I understand people want bigger cars and even price conscious costumers are now going for compact suv (VW T-Cross instead of a Polo) so makers are definitely cashin in on this. But there is also a Greed side to this story. Automakers have hiked prices, customers have kept buying and we finally (i hope) reached a breaking point. Jeep prices were apparently too high and sales plunged. All of this makes me actually quite happy for the arrival of Chinese manufacturers. The price/quality ratio is extremely good and when i see the price i finally feel that it's a good deal. It makes me want to buy that car, while with most European manufacturers i'm just thinking of being scammed!
• incomingpain 1y ago
  Regulation is regularly increasing the cost of a car by demanding more. For example, if you demand all new cars have a rear-backup-camera, then you added a cost. Govt is intentionally trying to cause at least 2% inflation. If you assume only 2% average over 50 years. A $25,000 car then is only about $9000 today; an untenable proposition. Lets be realistic, do you genuinely think no government in 50 years will exceed 2%? The $25k car is extinct.
• pif 1y ago
  Regulations have made simple cars unlawful, as simple as that. Tons of electronics are needed to respect arbitrary constraints.
• m82labs 1y ago
  I’d be interested to see what this does to overhead costs of businesses that actually need a large vehicle. I have a small horse farm and drive a 2010 F-150. I haul horses, 900lb. hay bales, feed, lumber for repairing fences and building shelters, etc. If my truck breaks down I am going to have to scrape through used inventory to find something that fits my needs. I don’t need leather, 16 cameras, seat warmers, and a high end sound system. I need a truck that can get done everything I need around the farm, and I need it to be cheap enough that I’m not worried about it getting scratched. All cars seem to be luxury vehicles now, I don’t know what folks are doing the just need something more utilitarian.
• boringuser1 1y ago
  [dead]
• wraptile 1y ago
  ICE cars have peaked. ICE car from 2012 is almost no different from ICE car in 2025 other than entertainment value and this is why every manufacturer is targeting premium market even with solved ICE technology.
• 1970-01-01 1y ago
  Completely unmentioned: Chinese EVs are $10k worldwide except USA. https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/08/2025-byd-seagull-ev-starts-at-under-10k-usd/ https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/08/2025-byd-seagull-ev-sta...
  • vel0city 1y ago
    Untrue. Those same "under $10k" BYD models are ~$20,000USD in Mexico.
  • moooo99 1y ago
    First of all, that statement is entirely untrue. These cars aren‘t 10k in most (all?) of the EU for example. As far as I know, these 10k cars are really only a thing in china and some SEA markets (I am not sure if these cars are really that cheap adjusted to purchasing power in these markets). Beyond that, the chinese EV brands are in market capture mode right now. The competition is cut throat and the margins are extremely thin. It‘s a market skimming strategy that will presumably be a last man standing scenario. If the winner(s) are decided, prices will definitely not remain as low as they are right now in some places.
    • sillystu04 1y ago
      > Beyond that, the chinese EV brands are in market capture mode right now. The competition is cut throat and the margins are extremely thin. BYD is profitable. Admittedly that's more of an exception than a rule for Chinese EV brands, but BYD is also the most important. > It‘s a market skimming strategy that will presumably be a last man standing scenario. If the winner(s) are decided, prices will definitely not remain as low as they are right now in some places. Even if most of the brands disappear we're very unlikely to get to an n=1 monopoly scenario. Even a couple dozen or so companies competing in the EV space should prevent margins from getting too high. In the olden days the ICE industry was at times run by fewer than 10 companies per country, that was enough competition to prevent consumers getting too screwed by pricing.
      • tpm 1y ago
• cloudedcordial 1y ago
  The car-dependent culture create a problem that you can't even go to work if you cannot afford a car.
  • trinix912 1y ago
    And this chicken-and-egg problem is also with public transit: - to have people use public transit, it has to provide enough routes and drive often enough to be at least remotely comparable to driving yourself - to do that, a lot of funding is required - to get that funding, people have to use and pay for the transit (fares) You can get some of that in with taxes, like many places already do, but there's only so much you can afford on taxes alone.
• jvanderbot 1y ago
  Is anyone following Slate auto? They claim to be making a suburban pickup in the Ford Ranger size for ~20k. I've been cautiously optimistic about my reservation. They apparently optimized for cost and molecularity, most notably by removing the infotainment system, which apparently is the biggest warranty / "feature" cost center.
  • bagels 1y ago
    27.5k, they're doing the dishonest thing of including tax incentives that not everyone qualifies for, and probably won't exist soon.
    • jvanderbot 1y ago
      Fair. But, 27.5 is very much in line with discussion around affordable cars (esp vs entry level trucks nowadays).
  • chis 1y ago
    It's a pretty car but I feel like they are mostly just selling a story about cost savings. Third party carplay screens can be bought for $150 so that just can't be very meaningful. The real cost savings is that it's a cheaply built EV with a small battery. Plus it's hard to get excited talking about the price a startup is claiming to sell cars at, before any have made it to consumers. That being said the car looks sweet. I hope we have more startups making retro-vibe electric cars since the barrier to entry is much lower than with combustion engines.
    • jvanderbot 1y ago
      Apparently (and I'm paraphrasing), the cost of the screen is not much. There's the cost of controls integration, at least, but also feature segmentation and warranty servicing. Apparently that's a lot of work to provide / cover and infotainment is one of the top warranty items. So it makes it a lot cheaper to just add a rack for your off the shelf bluetooth speaker.
• hamuraijack 1y ago
  $25k? What about when Honda Civics were $15k???
• lotharcable 1y ago
  Emissions, mileage, crash safety standards in the USA punish smaller more fuel efficient cars. The larger the wheel base or "shadow" of the vehicle the easier for it is to meet Federal standards. This is why nobody sells small pickup trucks here. It is a lot easier for Ford to produce F150s that get 25-30ish mpg then it is to produce small trucks that get 40-50. The Maverick is the only exception and it isn't really that small and it is also a hybrid. Essentially the Federal government made selling small cheap cars infeasible in this country. Also because vehicles last a lot longer thrifty Americans avoid buying new vehicles. They would rather buy a used one and let somebody else absorb the depreciation hit. And when buying a used car most people are going to want a used mid-ranger or higher end car then buying a used economy car.
• tlogan 1y ago
  Strange article based on incorrect information. My son and I are buying car and there are so many under 25k. In total there are 12 new models. Adjusted to inflation things did not change a lot in last 20 years (in 2005 there were 10 models less than 15k). - 2025 Nissan Versa – Starting at $18,330 - 2025 Hyundai Venue – Starting at $21,395 - 2025 Kia Soul – Starting at $20,490 - 2025 Nissan Sentra – Starting at $21,590 - 2025 Nissan Kicks – Starting at $21,830 - 2025 Hyundai Elantra – Starting at $22,125 Ok - 2025 Kia K4 – Starting at $21,990 - 2025 Toyota Corolla – Starting at $22,325 - 2025 Chevrolet Trailblazer – Starting at $23,100 - 2025 Subaru Impreza – Starting at $23,495 - 2025 Buick Envista – Starting at $23,800 - 2025 Toyota Corolla Hybrid – Starting at $23,825
  • neogodless 1y ago
    -2025 Mazda 3 (sedan) - Starting at $24,150 -2025 Chevrolet Trax - Starting at $20,500
    • tlogan 1y ago
      And a few more: - Volkswagen Jetta - starting at $22,495 - Volkswagen Taos - starting at $24,995 - Hyundai Kona - staring at $24,550 - Honda Civic - starting at $24,250
  • coro_1 1y ago
    I'd guess these starting prices have likely gone up 5%-7%. And that the price to build, has gone down the same amount. Which raises the bigger issue at hand.
  • arrozconcosas 1y ago
    The answer is to buy a car off lease, that has 20,000 miles on it and is 20-40% cheaper than the new price. It is nearly identical to a new car and has 90% of its useful life remaining.
    • Shalomboy 1y ago
      I mean that's just not the reality anymore. You could perhaps get 10-15% of the price knocked off here in the US, but 20-40% isn't accurate for anything besides high-volume luxury compact sedans, and even then you're skewing much closer to 20-25% in most regions.
• tlogan 1y ago
  This is a great example of how factually incorrect narratives - so long as they align with a preferred agenda (which is that things are not affordable any more) - it gets upvoted. Reality check: - In 2025, there are 12 new car models available under $25,000 - In 2005, there were around 10 new models under $15,000 (25k adjusted by inflation) So the premise that “cars used to be much more affordable” is not true. This article is full of misleading or outdated information that distorts the real trend. HN deserves better data-driven discussions.
  • adrianmoses 1y ago
    Just curious: Where's the source of this "reality check" and what's your agenda?
    • enraged_camel 1y ago
      They do not have a source. This happens on HN constantly: someone shits on the article with no basis in reality and no source, and their comment gets voted to the top and dominates the discussion.
    • alephnerd 1y ago
      Not OP, but you can use the BLS's CPI calculator. Their numbers are right [0] Implying that OP is "Assuming an agenda" appears to break the HN guidelines [1] [0] - https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=202501&year2=200505 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=20... [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  • foobarian 1y ago
    Not to mention how much more functionality present day cars have. (mentioned in a couple comments elsewhere, but things like airbags/backup cameras/other sensors etc).
    • willsmith72 1y ago
      Well of course, but tech gets cheaper over time too. Just look at the price and power of today's MacBook air vs 10 years ago. You get way more value for money as you should
• madcaptenor 1y ago
  10 years ago wasn't this "the $20k car is going extinct?"
• bityard 1y ago
  I don't know if it's due to social media distraction, very effective advertising business models, or lack of financial literacy but I have noticed that over the last 10 years, most people have been willing to pay literally any price for the things they want. It wasn't always like this. It used to be that price hikes were met with consumer backlash, media attention, and people simply not buying that thing which forced companies to correct their pricing. The fact that most people will happily pay any price they can afford (on credit, when) seems to be the main thing contributing to high food, car, and housing prices, which negatively impacts the poor and those who bust their ass to be frugal. But hey, I guess it's a great time to be a VC.
• xyst 1y ago
  In this modern age, the new vehicle markup at dealerships is completely unnecessary in the USA. Besides inflation, I would say this is a top contributor to the loss of <$25K vehicle. The crappy experience I had with my last vehicle (~8 years ago): 1. Shop for rates on auto loans 2. Shop for particular brand/model of vehicle (online) 3. Once decided on brand/model, go to local "{{ random entity }} of {{ manufacture }}" dealership 4. Test drive the model you are interested in 5. Once decided you will continue with purchase, then you "start talking numbers" 6. Initial sales guy will always say something like "oh, this is the lowest we can go" (it was something like $5000 over MSRP for the model + options) 7. Then counter with some offer ("$500 + MSRP") 8. Sales guy does some pitch and tries to get you to budge. If you stand your ground here, he/she will "begrudgingly" go back to their manager to get approval 9. You may get approved, or not. But occasionally they will counter. Repeat 6-8 until settled on sales price (including tax, title fees). Known as the "out the door" price. One time I did have to "walk out" when sales person wouldn’t agree on price. Also they will employ as many high pressure sales tactics here as possible. Also best to keep your cards close to your chest, they will try to get you to use their in-house finance (big kickbacks for them). Have had success getting near MSRP by leading them on to thinking I would use their in-house financing. 10. They will now refer you to their finance guy to finish and finalize the paperwork. But it doesn’t stop there. That finance guy will try to load you up on as many unneeded services to pump the sales price. I’m talking extended warranty, gap insurance, paint protectors at significant dealership markup. Usually the GAP insurance isn’t too bad but have to go through process of hearing the pitch and declining each service. Then there is the junk fees such as "document fees" that range from $100-300. 11. Finally, after declining and accepting additional services. You come to the actual payment decision : in house or external financing? Usually, the sales guy would have already run your information through their financing backend to determine creditworthiness prior to financing guy so they have an idea where they can lose out on initial purchase price and recoup on kickback. Occasionally, the rates are better than what you can secure from your bank or credit union. But it’s very rare. It’s in their interest to get you to agree to an higher APR than what you really deserve. At this point, pop out the preapproval letter and compare the offers. 12. On rare occasion, they will try to pull back the deal but at this point it’s better to close and increase sales for month rather than dwell about one barely profitable transaction. Finally, the paperwork is signed. All of this unnecessary back and forth when it can just be boiled down to a few steps at most. 1. Go to showroom (or online) 2. Browse basic models 3. Decide on options and put downpayment on car 4. (In 3-4 weeks) Deliver vehicle to home or preferred destination. Have it quickly inspected for any defects in transportation. Then deliver final payment and get your new car
• etothet 1y ago
  I recently needed to buy a car and my criteria was essentially I wanted least expensive new car on the market (I know I could have gone used but for this particular need I wanted a new car). The number of new vehicles that start under $20k is slim pickings. There are, what, maybe 3 in the US (if you don't count a couple that are discontinued)? And once you get into tax and title, you're going over $20k anyhow. Plus, with interest rates as they are, I don't know how the average person in Amercia affords a new vehicle these days.
• bfrog 1y ago
  I might be alone, but I miss the ridiculously simple all manual cars/trucks with crank windows, 5 speed and a clutch, and just the simplest damn interior. I don't want all the damn gadgets, those things inevitably break and then cost thousands to fix.
• nkotov 1y ago
  Infiniti is on the list of highest price increases. The reality is that nobody is actually buying any of their newer models. They dropped the ball in 2010s and playing catch up in 2020s. Nobody is going to pay $100k for QX80 when you can get an GX550/Escalade/Yukon for similar money.
• microhobby 1y ago
  Because of it, poor people, like me, use motorcycles. Because it is the only affordable option.
• SirMaster 1y ago
  But cars now have way more features in them than several years before.
• ManBeardPc 1y ago
  As someone working for the German automotive industry I see part of the reason being a nearly constant crisis situation. Software is another part that seems to consume a huge amount of resources for little outcome. See Cariad from Volkswagen for an example. Suppliers suffer from a constant flood and drought of contracts. Crisis -> We need so save money -> Supplier contracts are frozen or cancelled -> "Oh, we can't do stuff ourselves/We need help" -> Supplier had to let go experienced staff, hire cheap/unexperienced replacements/outsource -> Quality suffers and costs explode -> Repeat. Also not paying/delaying payments drives more suppliers out of business. You also better promise the impossible because the cheapest offer wins. One time I got a PowerPoint as the technical drawings for electric charger test station. Just some black boxes, lines and names. That was the documentation. I should help the project management with documentation of the current state, but had to provide quite a bit of engineering in addition. Also had to talk to the Chinese supplier directly (nobody in the team spoke Mandarin). What a joy.
• more_corn 1y ago
  Not in the US but there are some great electric cars available for less than that.
• builtsimple 1y ago
  The dealer inventory model is the real killer here. The article mentions that only ~20% of US buyers pre-order cars, compared to Europe where build-to-order is common. This fundamentally changes the economics. When I worked at a dealership software company, we saw the data firsthand - dealers would rather sit on one $80k truck for 60 days than move five $25k sedans in the same timeframe. The financing alone makes it worthwhile. A buyer financing an $80k vehicle at 7% over 72 months generates ~$20k in finance reserve profits that get split between the dealer and lender. The $25k car? Maybe $3-4k if you're lucky. The Maverick situation is particularly telling. Ford designed an actually affordable truck, and dealers immediately marked it up 25% because they could. That's not a supply chain issue - that's dealers extracting maximum value from artificial scarcity. What's interesting is that direct-to-consumer models (Tesla, Rivian, etc.) haven't really attacked this market segment either. You'd think cutting out the dealer would make sub-$25k vehicles viable again, but even they're chasing higher margins upmarket. The only real solution I see is Chinese EVs eventually forcing the issue. BYD is selling the Seagull for ~$11k in China. Even with tariffs, that could land here under $25k and completely reset consumer expectations. Until then, we're stuck with dealers optimizing for finance profits over volume.
• theropost 1y ago
  Just tossing in my two cents - half the $25K cars people are asking for do exist, or did, but we’re basically banning them from the country with tariffs. It’s like we’re saying, “nah, we don’t really want cheap cars.” Look at something like the Dolphin from China - it’s going for $8K–$9K USD over there. Ship a whole fleet of them and you’re still well under $25K. And we’re not talking junkers either - these are electric, decent build quality, ~300km range. Like... what exactly are we protecting here? Feels like we’re pricing affordability out of the market on purpose.