17 ms·

Framework Laptop 12 review

269 points by moelf 1y ago

dima55 1y ago
Is there a single person in the world that LIKES the half-height up/down keys?
- browningstreet 1y ago
  ..as much as the CTRL key being moved to the wrong place. (Yes, I could map this elsewhere, but I use too many different machines.)
  - mananaysiempre 1y ago
    Define "wrong"? Ctrl-Fn-Super-Alt has been used for ages by everyone except IBM/Lenovo and Apple[1], and (for what it's worth) Fn left of Ctrl is explicitly not recommended by ISO[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fn_key#Fn_and_Control_key_placement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fn_key#Fn_and_Control_key_plac... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#Function_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#Function_keys
    - gonzalohm 1y ago
      And for Lenovo you can change it in the BIOS
    - browningstreet 1y ago
      When I started in computers, the CTRL key is where CAPS sits nowadays. At some point it moved. To me, it makes no sense to me to make less-reachable the key that gets used the most. To reach the current CTRL key, I have to bend and twist my hand so that the pinky finger can reach the CTRL key. I never use the CAPS LOCK key, which is sitting under and adjacent to where the pinky rests.
      - mananaysiempre 1y ago
        Ah. Yes, OK, I sympathize with this sentiment but also feel it’s something of a lost cause for mass-produced keyboards. As far as Ctrl moving from one position to another, from what I can find it’s more that the two options coexisted for while, and eventually the current (and arguably worse) one outcompeted the other. Specifically: - The ADM-3A[1] (mid ’70s) had Ctrl above Shift and apparently no Caps Lock. - The Lisp machines[2,3] (late ’70s to mid ’80s) had Ctrl below Shift and Rub Out above Shift. - The IBM 3270 series (from the early ’70s onwards) terminals (those that were capable of lower-case input) are pictured in Wikipedia[4] with a Caps Lock above Shift and no Ctrl (which agrees with their input model) but I get the impression that IBM produced a bajillion keyboard variations for these. - The Model F variants for the XT and the AT (first half of the ’80s) has Ctrl above left Shift, Alt below it, and Caps Lock below right Shift[5], as well as 5×2 function keys on the left and no separate arrow keys; the later Model M variants (1985 onwards) use the modern layout; yet once again, looking at the separate pages for the Model F and the Model M, I get the impression that IBM simply produced a bajillion different versions of them. - The ANSI standard to which the appellation of “ANSI layout” refers is ANSI X3.154-1988, so presumably things had settled by then?.. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adm3aimage.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adm3aimage.jpg [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics-keyboard.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics-keyboard.j... [4] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Keyboard_layouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Keyboard_layou...
  - gonzalohm 1y ago
    What do you mean? Most laptops have Ctrl | Fn | windows | alt Which matches what one should expect from a desktop keyboard (Ctrl is the left-most key)
    - soco 1y ago
      If most laptops = HP then yes. However my Lenovo has Fn | Ctrl...
      - nucleardog 1y ago
        Where "most laptops" = "everything except Lenovo and Apple", more or less. Easily verified with a simple image search for "<brand> laptop keyboard" where "<brand>" is not Lenovo or Apple. Which is probably also why Lenovo's BIOS has an option to swap the Fn and Ctrl keys.
      - kej 1y ago
        Lenovo seems to be joining the rest of the world with Ctrl | Fn, based on the new ThinkPad I was issued at work a few weeks ago. I know the older Fn | Ctrl systems had a BIOS option to swap them, but I'm not sure if the new ones still have that.
    - Macha 1y ago
      Given how much more I press ctrl than fn, fn on the left drives me crazy on the few laptops that do it.
  - bryanlarsen 1y ago
    On keyboards with a sane layout, the ctrl key can be pressed with the meat of your hand rather than one of the fingers. This is harder on a laptop keyboard than it is with a proper desktop keyboard, but is still possible. ... as long as the keyboard has the proper layout, with ctrl in the far bottom left. One thing that Apple gets wrong and this keyboard gets right.
  - numpad0 1y ago
    There aren't many laptops with Control key in the correct spelling and placement like how and where it is on HHKB, even most MacBooks except JIS builds get it wrong.
- kesslern 1y ago
  I do, but they should be paired with half height Page Up and Page Down keys. It's weird with the left/right keys as full size.
  - blacksmith_tb 1y ago
    Ah, so in two rows pg up, up arrow, pg down left arrow, down arrow, right arrow I do like that layout, I have an old Dell Precision like that (though even its small keycaps are pretty big). My Framework 13 has the funny full-size left and right on either side of half-height up/down, which is kind of annoying, but you can get used to it, mostly.
  - zerocrates 1y ago
    Probably my preference over there is half-height inverted T, with just gaps above left and right: I'm happy to do Fn for page up/page down/home/end, and find this is the easiest layout to use by touch. Of course full-height is good too, but only if all four directions are going to be full height.
- mort96 1y ago
  I like keyboards with those half-height keys. I don't use arrow keys much, so it's nice that they don't take up so much space that other parts must be compromised. I really don't like this design though where the left/right keys are full size (or other designs where they put things like page up/down buttons above the left and right buttons). I don't mind that the arrow keys are a squished inverted T shape, but I really do think they should get to be an inverted T shape. When I do want to use arrow keys, I want to be able to easily locate them by touch without looking down at the keyboard.
- EvanAnderson 1y ago
  The half-height keys are fine. I've used HP machines w/ them for years and gotten used to them. Sharing the arrows w/ Home/End is awful, though. I don't know how anybody could live with having to use a modifier key to get those. I already combine modifiers with Home/End a ton. Having to add 3rd modifier (Ctrl-Shift-Fn-Left) to get "select from here to the top/bottom" sounds like painful hand gymnastics.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- numpad0 1y ago
  Objectively better than the mad man [<][>][^][v] arrangement of old Macs
- apricot 1y ago
  I hate them, and will not buy a laptop that has them.
- sixothree 1y ago
  I can't tell you how much I need TKL. I'm so tired of seeing numpads and not navigation keys. Literally all day long I'm using shift-home, ctl-shift-end, ctl-arrow, ctl-shift-arrow, pretty much any combination. I need these keys.
WillAdams 1y ago
As much as I like the ideals Framework is espousing, I'm seriously considering just making a folding shell for a Raspberry Pi 5 (maybe Pi 500) and a second gen Wacom One 13 (stylus w/ touch screen) and a battery.
- GardenLetter27 1y ago
  Unless you're working with MCUs etc. and want the GPIO pins, you'd get far more value out of a reasonable ASUS or Lenovo model. The SD card is a big bottleneck on the Pi.
  - dmicah 1y ago
    There is an M.2 hat for the Pi 5 that allows using an NVMe SSD instead of the SD card.
    - dale_huevo 1y ago
      Like dropping a racing engine into a Hindustan Ambassador. Makes no sense.
      - sixothree 1y ago
        If you get a chance to use one first hand you see the performance impact is more than noticeable.
      - redundantly 1y ago
        I see you're a person of taste. You nicely paired a bad analogy with your incorrect assumption.
- nrp 1y ago
  You should! That sounds like a great project.
- moffkalast 1y ago
  Just saw a kickstarter for something like that recently, a laptop built around a CM 5 with even GPIO broken out. Argon 40 something.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
daft_pink 1y ago
it’s really hard not to just buy a MacBook Air at this price level.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
  Linux support
  - weird_trousers 1y ago
    Sorry but this is not a real value for certain people.
    - nrp 1y ago
      We saw that there was a gap in the market for laptops that treat Linux as a first-class OS target, and we design our products with that audience in mind. That there are other people in the world who don't need Linux is totally ok.
      - rrix2 1y ago
        thanks nirav :) looking forward to my sage 12 for linux-based couch surfing
      - bobthecowboy 1y ago
        My kid is a bit young, but this is the laptop he'll be getting in a year or so to replace the garbage Chromebook he's currently using (which has steadily gotten flakier since purchase). First class Linux support is requirement #1; Framework's repairability on top of that means there's not even anything else to consider. It will be the third Framework in our house. My wife is happily using the second, having easily switched to Ubuntu from Windows 10(?) when the video cable connection in her Dell XPS flaked out and made the screen useless.
      - AgentElement 1y ago
        First-class Linux support is the reason that half the regulars in my local Linux Users Group have Frameworks. It's probably the most common laptop brand I see in my tech circle, and anecdotally I can say that it has eclipsed thinkpads in my specific community.
pengaru 1y ago
Maybe I'm just not the target market, but I wouldn't pay even half the asking price for this. If I'm going to throw money away on overpriced underpowered laptops it's going to mnt's pockets. At least that's trying to be open hardware (reform).
criddell 1y ago
Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I have the same complaint with Lenovo (I usually buy ThinkPads). Where are the fast, fanless, hidpi, long battery life laptops?
- femiagbabiaka 1y ago
  Competitive along which lines? Performance, yes, impossible. Battery life? Yes, impossible. Anything else? Definitely!
  - lukan 1y ago
    Hm, aside from it working reliable, performance and battery are my top priority, though.
    - femiagbabiaka 1y ago
      IMO the Desktop is their real "killer app." Apple comes nowhere close to competing with it on a price/performance perspective.
- mhitza 1y ago
  > Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? Kind of unreasonable. I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well? On the topic of displays, my understanding is that they "kind of use what they can get". That's how there can be a 13 display with rounded corners in a straight edge case. What you're asking are the things I'm looking for, though still every time I go into their forum I see enough thermal, fan noise issues and AMD firmware bugs, that I'm still on the fence on buying one. I wish them luck with the 12, for me sounds like a model for "true believers" because it doesn't seem to compete well enough with run of the mill chromebooks (or an Air) that are more established in the students segment.
Chronoyes 1y ago
"60 percent of the SRGB color space" I never knew they made screens that bad anymore.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
lagniappe 1y ago
[flagged]
GardenLetter27 1y ago
The pricing is crazy, they need to halve the prices to be competitive with Apple and Lenovo on the high-end and ASUS on the low-end.
- adityamwagh 1y ago
  I guess that’s just the cost you have to pay for repairability and extension.
  - libraryatnight 1y ago
    I've been using my framework 13 for a while now and it's been a great laptop - part of what pushed me over was their mission of making devices lives longer, my hope is and was that maybe the vote of confidence they survive long enough to build up to a model the Apple fans here would want or at least not complain about.
    - MostlyStable 1y ago
      I'm not sure that will ever happen. I own a Framework 16 (and am pretty happy with it), because I value repairability a lot. But the level of repairability and modularity that Framework is targeting comes with tradeoffs. This is simply the reality. Size, build quality/sturdiness, thermals, and more are going to take a hit when you have the extreme level of repairability and modularity. Framework laptops are probably never going to be the right solution for every kind of customer. And Macs are probably close the furthest thing on the opposite of the spectrum. Every choice is designed to tweak the design, aesthetics, battery life, etc. almost always at the expense of repairability. Someone who likes the part of the pareto frontier that Macs operate on is almost definitionally never going to be a Framework fan. For me, they are great, and I plan to continue to support them. But not everyone is interested in the tradeoffs inherent in their philosophy, and that's also fine.
      - libraryatnight 1y ago
        Yeah that's all true, I certainly don't need them to ever get to that point, but if they do it'll be because people bought into the mission first. Be the change and all that.
paddy_m 1y ago
What do you all use for a modern web development machine. 16GB of ram is no longer enough, I will soon upgrade to a new MBA with 32GB, but I still fear that won't be enough. I was looking at the latest framework and you can get it with 96GB of ram for $2k, that's $3600-$3800 for a mac and it's a much larger mac than I want. A quick scan of Dell and Lenovo non workstation class laptops didn't show any with more than 32GB. Memory used by various apps: docker VM take 8Gb for simple supabase images Firefox take 5-8GB BasedPyRight takes 2GB Nextjs server takes 2GB
- devmor 1y ago
  If you need an 8gb docker image as part of your local web development stack, that’s a toolchain problem.
  - AlotOfReading 1y ago
    One of our vendors publishes a 70GB docker image as their SDK. It's awful.
    - devmor 1y ago
      That is horrendous. I'm assuming it contains some kind of giant dataset in its entirety?
      - AlotOfReading 1y ago
        No datasets. Most of the size is just apt packages and tools bundled into the layers. Around 5GB are "useful" things, and another 15GB are a couple of arguably justified tarballs (only one of which is needed).
        devmor 1y ago
        That's even more infuriating. Just sheer incompetence wasting your valuable space and bandwidth.
- 1y ago
Lammy 1y ago
I really love the lavender — VAIO-core! I do wish I could get the other modules in lavender too, but I understand why they wouldn't want to fractally-complicate their stock keeping for those items. > the Laptop 12 can only fit a single DDR5 RAM slot, which reduces memory bandwidth and limits your RAM capacity to 48GB According to this post from a Framework team member, a single 64GB SODIMM will work too and just didn't exist yet at the time Intel wrote the 13th Gen spec, so they only advertize 48GB: https://community.frame.work/t/64gb-ram-for-framework-12-single-sodimm/67424/13 https://community.frame.work/t/64gb-ram-for-framework-12-sin... > Old, slow chip isn't really suitable for light gaming I wish the reviewer would specify what phrases like “light gaming” mean to them. My FW12 is in a later batch that won't ship for a few more months, but I'm coming from a ThinkPad T470s where I already do “light gaming” (mostly TBoI Repentence and Team Fortress 2 with mastercomfig medium-low). I can't imagine the 13th Gen graphics would be worse in that regard than my old laptop's 7th Gen. Not having Thunderbolt seemed like kind of a bummer to me too, but then again my T470s has it and I can't think of a single time I ever actually used it for anything. I tried one of those external GPU enclosures once, and it was kinda cool just to see that such a thing was possible, but I've never been one to want to tether a laptop with a thicc cable lol
- nrp 1y ago
  TF2 will absolutely run smoothly. I’ve been playing Persona 5 on my Framework Laptop 12.
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  > a single 64GB SODIMM will work too Wait, are 64GB DDR5 SODIMMs finally out? I’ve been monitoring that for ages but almost lost hope.
  - throawayonthe 1y ago
    seems so! https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#ff=ddr5_sodimm&Z=65536001,131072001,131072002,262144004,524288008 https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#ff=ddr5_sodimm&Z=6...
  - nrp 1y ago
throw0101d 1y ago
Meta: the purple-lavender colour brings back memories of Sun's purple-blue logo: * https://dogemicrosystems.ca/pub/Sun/media/logos/Sun-Microsystems-purple.svg https://dogemicrosystems.ca/pub/Sun/media/logos/Sun-Microsys...
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
theodric 1y ago
> "A sturdy, thoughtful, cute design that just can't compete in its price range." People will pay untold thousands for a Mac, but God forbid when a PC manufacturer charges more than $599 for a laptop. If you're whining about the price, Framework isn't made for you. Go buy that Acer that you really want. The Framework is Sam Vimes' expensive boots that are made to last[1], and I've happily paid in full to get a pair. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
- masklinn 1y ago
  > People will pay untold thousands for a Mac, but God forbid when a PC manufacturer charges more than $599 for a laptop. The article compares the FL12 to laptops of the same price range, including other framework laptops to note that it falls short. The FL12 has worse performances and battery life than an M1 Air, for more than an M4. The point of the article is that the 12 should either be a lot less expensive or it should be a lot better. It's not whatever nonsense you're dreaming of.
  - MostlyStable 1y ago
    The core philosophy of Framework is repairability and modularity. Yes, you are paying extra for those things, and so people who do not value them, should probably not buy Framework. These comments are full of the old cliche of judging a fish in a tree climbing contest. Repairabilty and modularity come with tradeoffs. Not everyone is going to value those tradeoffs and therefore shouldn't buy a laptop where those are the priority. But some people do value those things, and telling them to "get a MacBook" is just silly.
  - theodric 1y ago
    You can repair a Mac by handing it (and possibly your wallet) to Apple and letting them replace entire large subsystems to remedy the issue and pair the new parts. A few years back (pre-Apple Silicon) I got a new top case, keyboard, battery, and trackpad because the button in the trackpad had failed. Pretty good deal on a laptop that was nearly 3 years old, in fairness. To repair (or upgrade) a Framework, you buy the part and install it. That's worth something to me! Incidentally, I also have a last-gen ThinkPad P14s Gen 5 AMD and it's a flimsy POS. Already needed a new motherboard and battery and spent three weeks sitting at the service center while they rounded up the parts. Wish I'd bought another Framework 13.
username223 1y ago
I wish them the best, but if they can't compete with a MacBook Air on price despite Apple's huge profit margins, then maybe it's just not meant to be. People used to talk about paying the "Apple tax," but how many people are willing to pay the "Linux tax?" Mac OS is a similar Unix with the usual tools, and you can rent a VPS if you need Linux on an x86 sometimes. An MBA with an M4 will last 5+ years with a battery swap, and still probably perform better than whatever Framework releases in 2030. I guess I'm not the target customer for this. I can see myself tinkering with a desktop, but I'd rather just have a laptop that runs fast and long enough, and stands up to abuse for 3-5 years.
- sixothree 1y ago
  $1500 for 48 GB and 2 TB? Am I missing something here?
  - username223 1y ago
    Yes, Apple screws you on SSDs, so that 2 TB adds a lot. If you need it, and don't want an external SSD (2 TB costs $150), the Framework is cheaper with a slower CPU. Maxing internal storage on a Mac laptop is a bad idea if cost matters to you. EDIT: I haven't felt the need to spec a programming laptop like that. 16/512 feels fast enough, and 32/512 would have room to bloat... er, I mean grow. But I don't use a local LLM, and I don't know whether the difference between a heavily-quantized thing that fits in 16 GB and whatever you can fit in 48 is significant versus the ones running on absurd data center CPUs.
    - sixothree 1y ago
      Can you even buy 256 GB SSDs any more?
cjcenizal 1y ago
I love the Galvatron color scheme! Feels techy yet nostalgic.
- jbm 1y ago
  I was thinking BW2 Galvatron too — looks great. After reading everyone's comments about price I expected it would be much worse. I might consider it after my current laptop dies.
losvedir 1y ago
> modular, repairable, upgradeable laptops In terms of phones, I largely disagree with the conventional wisdom that repairable, upgradeable, Androids are better for the environment, more cost effective for the user, etc than iPhones. It's true you can't upgrade the battery yourself, but that's a different quality from whether the battery can be upgraded. And iPhones have a much higher resale value, so they're going to end up in landfills more slowly. I personally bought and use a used iPhone 11 that came with a replaced battery, and it's great! Old iPhones have a long useful life after trade in and resale, even if people buying new models here don't see it. So I'd love to know how much this is the case for laptops like these as well. For example, "repairable" is useful to the extent that repairs actually need to happen, and it seems to mean "self" repairable, though again that's a different dimension from whether a service center can do it. And whether you need self repairable is not a thing about longevity, environmental impact (since repair centers suffice for that), but rather convenience and possibly price. But price isn't the factor here because the thing is so damn expensive to begin with. "Upgradeable" is useful if you want to.... improve a piece of it but not the chassis? Screen? How necessary is this? Do people really do that? I've been happy to use a laptop for half a decade or more, until finally upgrading everything all at once.
- presbyterian 1y ago
  I also feel like Android phones stop getting OS updates (including security fixes) much faster than iPhones. You can root them and install a newer version of Android, I guess, but the vast majority of people won't do that. Also, I haven't been on Android in a few years, so maybe I'm wrong and this isn't a problem anymore, but it certainly was in the past.
  - staindk 1y ago
    A Lot of improvement has happened on Android regarding this. I think Samsungs have 6 or 7 years of guaranteed software updates, as do Pixel phones.
- prophesi 1y ago
  It doesn't just mean self-repairable; you could still go in to a service center. It just wouldn't have to be an Apple approved one. And would be a lot cheaper due to the reduced costs of labor, and likely increase of third-party parts, particularly if they become modular / standardized. I had a friend who'd replace phone screens and batteries, but at some point it was no longer worth the hassle.
butz 1y ago
We need more 10"-12" sized laptops. I regret selling my netbook in hopes a device with a bit better specs would come.
- kelnos 1y ago
  Agreed. I miss my old 12" Powerbook, and a ~2010-ish-era 11" MacBook Air. Then again, you end up with underpowered hardware; I don't think something in an 11" MBA form factor would have the beefiness I require these days.
9283409232 1y ago
> The Core i5 version of the Laptop 12 lasted around 10 hours in the PCMark Modern Office battery life test, which isn't stunning but is a step up from what the fully specced versions of the Framework Laptop 13 can offer. It will be just fine for a long flight or a full day of work or school. This is the key. Framework 12 is a model aimed at schools and corporations. I wouldn't be surprised to see a ChromeOS version of it appear for schools. Which is great if they can tap into that market.
- kybernetikos 1y ago
  It's a bit surprising to find so little in these comments and the original review talking about the youth first laptop use-case. Lots of schools require a touch screen, and kids are going to break parts even on a fairly rugged laptop. All these people talking about MacBook Airs are missing the point. None of the schools around me have MacBook Airs as allowed laptops for kids BYOD and even if they did, I'm not sure they'd have a long life getting the kinds of hits and knocks that will happen being carried everywhere in high school by a 12 year old. This laptop is obviously for this use case. I know of no other laptop that really covers this use case well. Typically laptops aimed at this segment are cheaper, but not rugged, not easy to repair, and not really very nice. I strongly suspect that I'll only have to replace the screen or keyboard once before the total cost of ownership works out compared to a normal laptop.
nucleardog 1y ago
> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products. It has value as an easily repairable and customizable laptop. It has value in some esoteric use cases it can be customized into (e.g., 4xM.2 NVME slots). Would love to see some reviews just get this out of the way up front and spend more words on the product itself. Personally, I'm glad there's a company out there serving a market niche besides being the lowest cost, most value-engineered product. I don't mind paying a bit extra for that in exchange for the other value I get out of it. (And all that said--at the high end specs their prices get a fair bit more competitive. The price to upgrade a laptop from 16GB -> 128GB on Dell's site is _more than an entire FW16 w/ Ryzen 9 + 96GB RAM_.)
- m463 1y ago
  this same lack of critical thinking is why you can't search for decently-rated dumb tvs, because they lose points for not being smart. sigh.
- atrus 1y ago
  I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.
  - nucleardog 1y ago
    Yeah, I personally take that into account however I can see why someone may not. Framework has released fairly consistent upgrades for the Framework 13, but there's no guarantee that they will continue to do so, will release upgrades for the Framework 16, etc. I think in a few years when they've been in business for closer to a decade than not and released updates across the whole product line, it'd be pretty hard for anyone to make an argument that that _shouldn't_ be factored in.
ItCouldBeWorse 1y ago
> A good laptop, but not a good value One of my mentors had the great sentence: "I dont buy laptops- they suck, because they are tailored to transport. I buy desktops- and connect them via internet to flat transportable terminals. And desktops can be upgraded, merged, reused and send to the closet as server at the EOL-" And he was kind of right. For almost all purposes, even for gaming in a way- a remote desktop is kind of superior. Yes, stadia is dead- but for everything else- this shall do.
- atrus 1y ago
  Using Steam Streaming/Moonlight-Sunlight/Tailscale is a dream for remote gaming.
  - ItCouldBeWorse 1y ago
    You are absolutely right- forgive me, im kind of out of touch with the whole steam revolutionizing gaming on linux. I think the comment about the "transporttax" on hardware, ergonomic and cooling still holds up though even in a world where things like steam-deck exist. Even more so, if you may have lightweight ar-headsets one day, with a glorified cellphone + mouse and keyboard.
- patwoz 1y ago
  Nah, it’s ok for browsing the internet and for „slow“ games but for anything else it sucks
- ItCouldBeWorse 1y ago
  One could argue, that the "reusability" of the laptopbricks, in a desktop-server blade like structure is the biggest argument for the framework as a laptop though.
- mac-attack 1y ago
  I am of the same mind. Desktop for heavy lifting and a mid-range Chromebook (technically a chrultrabook now) for browsing w/ a lightweight yet modern feel. I do think the plunge to leveraging a desktop/server across devices does require an understanding of ssh/rdp and tailscale/reverse proxies though, which is why it isn't as popular as it could be.
UncleOxidant 1y ago
From the pics there this laptop does not have a matte surface on the screen? Looks like a glossy screen. One would hope matte is an option. EDIT: Yes, it looks like matte is an option and they don't charge extra.
- nrp 1y ago
  Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16 are matte. Framework Laptop 12 has coverglass (non-matte) to get the durability needed for stylus support.
rfwhyte 1y ago
I'd be a lot more into Framework if they had come out with a single other GPU option than the Radeon 7700S that's been the only GPU option available since the brands launch. The 7800M and 7900M have both been out over a year or more, and Framework has made zero mention of when or even if those models would ever be available as upgrades for Framework devices. I don't even really play games, but for my video editing workloads, more GPU cores and VRAM make a world of difference, and the RTX 3070 level of performance out of the RX7700s that's thus far the only GPU option for Framework devices just doesn't cut it. There's just no way I'm spending $2500+ USD for a laptop that has worse performance than devices costing half as much at this point. They just aren't really delivering on the promise of "Future upgradeability" in any kind of meaningful way so far, and I just can't see the value in purchasing what's undeniably a wildly overpriced machine based on promises that have yet to be delivered upon. They've had plenty of time to communicate when, or even if, new GPUs are coming, yet there's been absolute radio silence from the on this front. Personally I think they need to focus more on actually delivering on the fundamental promise of the brand, that being future upgradeability, than on releasing new devices, as until they can demonstrate they are committed to delivering on their promises, I won't be buying any of their devices.
- justinrubek 1y ago
  Why would you buy a 12 inch laptop for video editing?
- wffurr 1y ago
  They already released several updated mainboards for the 13 and 16 with newer Intel and AMD chips.
rkagerer 1y ago
At the high end, what are some alternative laptops you would consider which are not Apple? (Preferably with full-sized arrow keys)
- Const-me 1y ago
  Couple months ago, I have replaced 3.5 years old HP Probook with XMG EVO 14. Specifically, I have ordered a configuration with Ryzen 7 8845HS, 64GB DDR5-5600, and no disks because I reused 4TB WD Red SN700 from the old laptop, and still have the second M2 2280 slot free should I need more storage. Pretty good laptop, the screen is great even, colour-calibrated 2880×1800 IPS configurable to 60 Hz refresh rate. However, the up/down arrow keys are not full size, their height is smaller.
- bryanhogan 1y ago
  I've been considering getting a Framework for a long time now, but I think I'll just get a Thinkpad instead once I need to replace my current 5 year-old laptop. Edit: Just noticed the full sized arrow keys part, don't think Thinkpads have that.
ls-a 1y ago
I can't believe companies are still squishing those arrow keys together. How could this terrible keyboard design drag for so long
- wffurr 1y ago
  Who needs arrow keys when you have hjkl?
caycep 1y ago
I was thinking of posting one of those Ask HN things re what ppl thought were the best laptops for linux in 2025, i.e. a Thinkpad, a Framework, a System76...or a MacBook running utm...
spankibalt 1y ago
"Interesting" product placement (already within their portfolio, compared to the Framework 13). Sadly, they didn't succeed in making their unique features (compared to their and the market's other offerings) really useful by: 1. Using substandard digitzer tech (something as performant and economical as Wacom EMR is needed). One cannot compromise here. I get that this might also be a licensing issue. 2. Making the device too big. 10.3 inch or smaller is better; the possibility of using the device in a train's or on a plane's fold-away tray table, just to be stashed away in a cross-body or small messenger bag after use, is still a killer feature. More real estate (by way of screens, ultraportable projectors, et cetera) can always be thrown into the mix later. 3. Choosing a wrong, or to be more precise obsolete, form factor. It needed to be a detachable for more modularity and flexibility. So, it's just another, admittedly very maintainable, premium-priced classic convertible. Its attached keyboard is a design-compromising dead weight and/or wasted space whenever not in use, very much like (the unused) maneuvering jets on older VTOL aircraft while in conventional flight. 4. The display is not of primary importance here, but there's no need to make it that bad. Top-notch, wide-color, flicker-free IPS displays do exist. 5. Sturdy but lightweight metal, not plastic. And so the search for a well-designed, modular SFF general computing device continues. They nailed the colors tho, and hopefully continue to set an example in Linux support. I wish them plenty sales, I'm sure the machine will find its fans.
- brunoqc 1y ago
  > 10.3 inch or smaller is better Any good non-apple devices have that?
  - spankibalt 1y ago
    I don't know what use case you represent. Me, as a very picky sort-of-hater of all things that reek of smartphone, I'm looking at several devices to acquire: 1. Lenovo Legion Go 2: Windows (and possible Linux adaptability), Switch-like, will for some bizarre reason probably get an OLED display, might be at least Wacom AES compatible, pocket rocket with yet unkown but likely sketchy battery life, 8.8 inch. Not out yet. 2. 4th Gen Lenovo Y700 (AKA Legion Tab): Android (don't know how well de-Googleing etc. on Lenovo devices works), outstanding IPS display according to all the relevant ads and brochures, Snapdragon Elite, plenty memory, no 3.5 mm audio jack but mSD card slot and two USB-C ports, possible Wacom AES compatibility, etc. Display size also 8.8 inch, and also not out yet. 3. Samsung Galaxy Tab Active5 Pro: 10.1 inch, semi-rugged, Wacom EMR penabled, hot-swappable dual battery configuration, 3.5 mm audio jack, mSD card slot, USB-C 3.2, TFT LCD (120 Hz, 600 nits), Snapdragon 7s Gen 3, a measly 8 GB RAM, Android with Samsung's patented shackles (i. e. very hard to de-Google), corpo long-term support, etc. Essentially a slightly enlarged, but largely performative update of the Active5 below. 4. Samsung Galaxy Tab Active5, a classic example of corporate bean counting to the highest degree: 8.0 inch, semi-rugged, Wacom EMR, removable battery, 3.5 mm audio, mSD... but only USB-C 2.0, 8 GB of RAM, a rather weak processor, and rather meagre accessory support. Also available in a MIL-SPEC version with some extra goodies thrown in. 5. I'm also looking at some semi-rugged Dells and Panasonics. None have Wacom EMR capability. The only other established device makers that serve my use case at least in terms of display size are Chinese knock-offs with questionable support. Outside of that there's only the Steamdeck experience with integrated gaming controls, a form factor I have zero interest in, or small indie-engineered Linux hopefuls (e. g. the 7-inch version of Soulscircuit's Pilet UMPC)... which often suffer from poor energy management and therefore battery life, as well as "enthusiast-grade" support. ;)
toastercat 1y ago
I was this close to buying the newest generation Framework, but in the end, could not justify the price when I found a far better bang for my buck and respectable self-repairability with a refurbished Gen 5 T14. It's even surprisingly thin and light.
pdimitar 1y ago
I dig this laptop a lot but two things have put me off: 1. No full AMD options. I don't trust Intel's thermals and performance for several years now. Maybe they have rebounded but I no longer care. For me it's "AMD or get away from me". 2. No backlit keyboard. There is no excuse for this in 2025! I can forgive a lot of things, lack of biometric auth included, but no backlit keyboard is a cardinal sin. I don't care about price. At this point I am ready to pay extra for libre hardware that is 100% open/free source ready and even working best with it. I would easily pay Macbook prices for a machine. But going for Intel and for no backlit keyboard -- nope. Hope somebody from Frame.Work is reading. AMD has better thermals! (Or had, a few years ago, again, haven't checked in a while.)
0000000000100 1y ago
Our company bought about 4-5 Framework 13s, and boy were they a bad experience. All sorts of driver issues, random crashes, USB ports not working right, etc. Just about all of them had some kind of issue, which is really fun when your PM has a USB port not work randomly. Ended up going back to HP laptops, 30% cheaper for the same specs and they just work consistently. Would love to hear a hobbyist perspective, Frameworks are not a good choice for a business but I would be interested to hear if the replaceable parts / ports provided value for someone. My gut feeling is that something that can't be replaced easily in the Frameworks will die and it'll just end up being cheaper to replace the whole laptop.
- chickensong 1y ago
  The first run of Frameworks had a weak hinge on the monitor, which isn't an uncommon problem with other brands of laptop. With Framework, you can easily replace the hinge, but that's unlikely with most other brands, and you'll need to pay to replace the entire monitor. Another example, I didn't need an HDMI port anymore, and wanted an extra USB-C instead. Just a few bucks to swap with Framework, but impossible with other laptops. I did have an issue with one of my USB ports on the Framework however. It was solved by removing the module and updating the bios firmware. Can't say I've ever had that happen with another laptop. I agree they're probably not ready for business use yet, where cost is the primary measurement.
  - Tijdreiziger 1y ago
    It seems that the swappable modules would also make it easy for someone to install e.g. a keylogger, though.
    - TheGuyWhoCodes 1y ago
      You can lock the modules with a button and also screw them in from the inside. Not saying it's perfect but it's a far cry from just swapping a module.
    - wpm 1y ago
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
MangoToupe 1y ago
Does anyone else see the touchscreen as a straight-up downside? I don't want that, have no need for it, absolutely do not want anyone touching my screen, and it's just more shit that can break. It looks fantastic aside from that, though.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
I have a Framework 12 laptop running Ubuntu. I use it mostly for dev (so I don't care about gaming, Windows, etc.). I mostly like it, but I have two gripes: - the touchpad is atrocious - battery life is mediocre
- brunoqc 1y ago
  How come you already have a Framework 12?
  - insane_dreamer 1y ago
    My bad! - meant to write 13
    - brunoqc 1y ago
      Thanks for the reply. I hope they listen to feedback and improve the touchpad and the battery.
class3shock 1y ago
For anyone considering the 16, mine has had some teething issues (1. motherboard failed and I was sent a replacement 2. keyboard/touchpad started having a issue losing connection which I still need to submit a ticket for). The USB A port also feels like it's gonna break at some point (the rest seem fine). The linux experience has been about the same as on a Dell XPS 13 with the consistent issues being poor battery life and an inability to sleep properly. If I were to do it again I would get the 13 not the 16 but would still give it a shot.
poisonborz 1y ago
I just wish somebody would make a quality, powerful 2in1 laptop model with a long commitment. Thinkpad X Yogas were the ones, but their price/perf is down the drain and you can't get one with DGPU. There were some passable gaming models from others but with the usual QA issues of non-business products, and mostly one-off experiments/no refreshes. Dear HA, tent mode in a laptop is great, please generate more enthusiast demand.
jekwoooooe 1y ago
I like the idea of framework but after using a MacBook for years and having an iPhone, there’s just no competition. Even if the performance could be the same, you just simply don’t have the ecosystem. I can mirror my phone on my Mac (securely). I have unified clipboard and notifications. Not to mention all the other apps that just work across all my Apple devices. Enterprise and commercial software support… I could go on. An I used to run a fully riced out tiled arch setup.
- simonh 1y ago
  The counter argument is that Apple could, and should make their devices just as repairable and upgradable and we’d have the best of both worlds. I don’t entirely buy it, I think architectures like the Framework are a trade off, not a pure win. Google tried to build a modular phone but the project seems to have fallen apart (Ho, ho).
  - jekwoooooe 1y ago
    Sure they could but they have an edge like framework has an edge. If you value the idea that you can theoretically repair your laptop one day (which is an assumption that it will break) more than everyday usability and features… then that’s your choice. Outside of breaking a screen I’ve never one had a laptop just “break”. And for anything else well… there’s AppleCare.
    - righthand 1y ago
      Not everyone using a computer can afford Apple products and Apple service repair services. Good for you, but maybe start with your privilege as a difference.
      - simonh 1y ago
        Just a data point, but I've had three devices repaired by Apple. One was in warranty (just), the other two times they weren't but Apple did the repair for free anyway. You certainly can't rely on them doing the latter, it's at their discretion, but they often do anyway.
XorNot 1y ago
When are we getting a decent keyboard? I would buy a Framework but the keyboard is as junk as every other laptop keyboard out there right now. The whole "MacBook" trend of laptop keyboards has ruined the entire industry. I want the old style low travel keyboard we had which still had some travel, a dense layout and actual shape to the key caps.
- kybernetikos 1y ago
  I used to really like the keyboard on the old think pad t series, like the T60. But it seems that everyone is doing 'island' keys these days.
red369 1y ago
Just my own anecdote about the Framework 13: I also felt I paid a MacBook price, but was much happier paying for future repairability/upgradability. I am so sick of buying things that feel disposable that I would a pay a premium not to. But I have a dream that Framework will change one thing that seems so trivial, and which would make my relationship with my Framework laptop and purchase decision so much simpler. If they can't ship replacement parts for faults/design flaws outside of their supported regions, which is understandable even if frustrating, at least allow me to use freight forwarding! I'm now living in a country Framework don't ship to, and so every small fault I have ever had with their product is permanent. I had goodwill for years, but being stuck with their design fault with the backup battery system has tipped me to no longer recommending buying from them. Obviously most people don't move countries, so this won't be an issue for them, but it's the feeling that they didn't seem to try hard to find a solution. It's the opposite of what I felt early on when I found their excellent documentation on faults, and their BIOS updates which addressed every complaint (adjustable brightness of power LED, limit charging capacity to a percentage). That feeling, and an effectively non-repairable laptop, are things I could have bought from anyone!
- red369 1y ago
  I should add that even now, I probably wouldn't recommend just going out and buying just any laptop over the Framework. They're still the company moving the most in the direction I like. For people who just don't want to think about this stuff (generally not HN readers), I'd suggest trying to find the minimum Apple laptop which would get you by for a few years. Their base level computers feel like amazing value, but the prices to upgrade RAM and SDD are brutal at purchase, and it's impossible afterwards. For anyone who I think would have the appetite, refurbished corporate laptops are very solid, quite repairable, and good value. I think those both those options are actually very high bars to beat, so if Framework hasn't jumped straight to beating those yet, that's still not necessarily a terrible thing.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
st3fan 1y ago
No ARM64 option :-(
nixpulvis 1y ago
Am I the only one who thinks it's foolish not to have a darker color option? Or something more professional? These all remind me of kindergarten.
- broodbucket 1y ago
  it's explicitly designed for younger people, they'd say Framework Laptop 13 is what you're describing
  - nixpulvis 1y ago
    I see.
nektro 1y ago
i run nixos on a framework 13 and it runs perfectly with all features working as i'd expect. running linux natively and knowing the good the company is doing good is priceless. will definitely be buying another someday.
- SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
  Linux Mint, FW13, battery has a slow drain while off and dead most of times I go to use it. It’s OK, but I’m not sure I would make the same selection today. Their price is just too high.
wpm 1y ago
I wish Framework made a small laptop with inverted-T arrow keys. I *hated* the full height left and right keys on my old touchbar MacBook Pro, and rejoiced when they wisely fixed that mistake. I don't need to go to a 16, the only laptop they sell with the proper arrow key arrangement. I need something small and cheerful as a secondary Linux laptop, and ugh, the 12 and the 13 come so so close, only to trip right before the finish line.
lofaszvanitt 1y ago
Looks fucking ugly. Even the logo is terrible. And the colours make you feel nauseous. Instead of nuthugging the compute power of these things, why not make something that looks and feels lovable. Is that so much to ask? Like the pixel phones, which are the ugliest, nastiest looking shitpile I've ever seen. And they slam it down the throats of people. In nature, even supposedly ugly things look OK, but in the artificial industrial world, things look ugly and out of place. I don't know how they achieve this. But it must be something around, 'Oh, this part costs so much', or someone who has power over things he/she shouldn't have, so we instead create these horrendous-looking monster machines that suck our souls.

269 points by moelf 1y ago

dima55 1y ago

Is there a single person in the world that LIKES the half-height up/down keys?

browningstreet 1y ago
..as much as the CTRL key being moved to the wrong place. (Yes, I could map this elsewhere, but I use too many different machines.)
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  Define "wrong"? Ctrl-Fn-Super-Alt has been used for ages by everyone except IBM/Lenovo and Apple[1], and (for what it's worth) Fn left of Ctrl is explicitly not recommended by ISO[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fn_key#Fn_and_Control_key_placement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fn_key#Fn_and_Control_key_plac... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#Function_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#Function_keys
  - gonzalohm 1y ago
    And for Lenovo you can change it in the BIOS
  - browningstreet 1y ago
    When I started in computers, the CTRL key is where CAPS sits nowadays. At some point it moved. To me, it makes no sense to me to make less-reachable the key that gets used the most. To reach the current CTRL key, I have to bend and twist my hand so that the pinky finger can reach the CTRL key. I never use the CAPS LOCK key, which is sitting under and adjacent to where the pinky rests.
    - mananaysiempre 1y ago
      Ah. Yes, OK, I sympathize with this sentiment but also feel it’s something of a lost cause for mass-produced keyboards. As far as Ctrl moving from one position to another, from what I can find it’s more that the two options coexisted for while, and eventually the current (and arguably worse) one outcompeted the other. Specifically: - The ADM-3A[1] (mid ’70s) had Ctrl above Shift and apparently no Caps Lock. - The Lisp machines[2,3] (late ’70s to mid ’80s) had Ctrl below Shift and Rub Out above Shift. - The IBM 3270 series (from the early ’70s onwards) terminals (those that were capable of lower-case input) are pictured in Wikipedia[4] with a Caps Lock above Shift and no Ctrl (which agrees with their input model) but I get the impression that IBM produced a bajillion keyboard variations for these. - The Model F variants for the XT and the AT (first half of the ’80s) has Ctrl above left Shift, Alt below it, and Caps Lock below right Shift[5], as well as 5×2 function keys on the left and no separate arrow keys; the later Model M variants (1985 onwards) use the modern layout; yet once again, looking at the separate pages for the Model F and the Model M, I get the impression that IBM simply produced a bajillion different versions of them. - The ANSI standard to which the appellation of “ANSI layout” refers is ANSI X3.154-1988, so presumably things had settled by then?.. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adm3aimage.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adm3aimage.jpg [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics-keyboard.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics-keyboard.j... [4] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Keyboard_layouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Keyboard_layou...
- gonzalohm 1y ago
  What do you mean? Most laptops have Ctrl | Fn | windows | alt Which matches what one should expect from a desktop keyboard (Ctrl is the left-most key)
  - soco 1y ago
    If most laptops = HP then yes. However my Lenovo has Fn | Ctrl...
    - nucleardog 1y ago
      Where "most laptops" = "everything except Lenovo and Apple", more or less. Easily verified with a simple image search for "<brand> laptop keyboard" where "<brand>" is not Lenovo or Apple. Which is probably also why Lenovo's BIOS has an option to swap the Fn and Ctrl keys.
    - kej 1y ago
      Lenovo seems to be joining the rest of the world with Ctrl | Fn, based on the new ThinkPad I was issued at work a few weeks ago. I know the older Fn | Ctrl systems had a BIOS option to swap them, but I'm not sure if the new ones still have that.
  - Macha 1y ago
    Given how much more I press ctrl than fn, fn on the left drives me crazy on the few laptops that do it.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  On keyboards with a sane layout, the ctrl key can be pressed with the meat of your hand rather than one of the fingers. This is harder on a laptop keyboard than it is with a proper desktop keyboard, but is still possible. ... as long as the keyboard has the proper layout, with ctrl in the far bottom left. One thing that Apple gets wrong and this keyboard gets right.
- numpad0 1y ago
  There aren't many laptops with Control key in the correct spelling and placement like how and where it is on HHKB, even most MacBooks except JIS builds get it wrong.
kesslern 1y ago
I do, but they should be paired with half height Page Up and Page Down keys. It's weird with the left/right keys as full size.
- blacksmith_tb 1y ago
  Ah, so in two rows pg up, up arrow, pg down left arrow, down arrow, right arrow I do like that layout, I have an old Dell Precision like that (though even its small keycaps are pretty big). My Framework 13 has the funny full-size left and right on either side of half-height up/down, which is kind of annoying, but you can get used to it, mostly.
- zerocrates 1y ago
  Probably my preference over there is half-height inverted T, with just gaps above left and right: I'm happy to do Fn for page up/page down/home/end, and find this is the easiest layout to use by touch. Of course full-height is good too, but only if all four directions are going to be full height.
mort96 1y ago
I like keyboards with those half-height keys. I don't use arrow keys much, so it's nice that they don't take up so much space that other parts must be compromised. I really don't like this design though where the left/right keys are full size (or other designs where they put things like page up/down buttons above the left and right buttons). I don't mind that the arrow keys are a squished inverted T shape, but I really do think they should get to be an inverted T shape. When I do want to use arrow keys, I want to be able to easily locate them by touch without looking down at the keyboard.
EvanAnderson 1y ago
The half-height keys are fine. I've used HP machines w/ them for years and gotten used to them. Sharing the arrows w/ Home/End is awful, though. I don't know how anybody could live with having to use a modifier key to get those. I already combine modifiers with Home/End a ton. Having to add 3rd modifier (Ctrl-Shift-Fn-Left) to get "select from here to the top/bottom" sounds like painful hand gymnastics.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
numpad0 1y ago
Objectively better than the mad man [<][>][^][v] arrangement of old Macs
apricot 1y ago
I hate them, and will not buy a laptop that has them.
sixothree 1y ago
I can't tell you how much I need TKL. I'm so tired of seeing numpads and not navigation keys. Literally all day long I'm using shift-home, ctl-shift-end, ctl-arrow, ctl-shift-arrow, pretty much any combination. I need these keys.

WillAdams 1y ago

As much as I like the ideals Framework is espousing, I'm seriously considering just making a folding shell for a Raspberry Pi 5 (maybe Pi 500) and a second gen Wacom One 13 (stylus w/ touch screen) and a battery.

GardenLetter27 1y ago
Unless you're working with MCUs etc. and want the GPIO pins, you'd get far more value out of a reasonable ASUS or Lenovo model. The SD card is a big bottleneck on the Pi.
- dmicah 1y ago
  There is an M.2 hat for the Pi 5 that allows using an NVMe SSD instead of the SD card.
  - dale_huevo 1y ago
    Like dropping a racing engine into a Hindustan Ambassador. Makes no sense.
    - sixothree 1y ago
      If you get a chance to use one first hand you see the performance impact is more than noticeable.
    - redundantly 1y ago
      I see you're a person of taste. You nicely paired a bad analogy with your incorrect assumption.
nrp 1y ago
You should! That sounds like a great project.
moffkalast 1y ago
Just saw a kickstarter for something like that recently, a laptop built around a CM 5 with even GPIO broken out. Argon 40 something.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

daft_pink 1y ago

it’s really hard not to just buy a MacBook Air at this price level.

2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
Linux support
- weird_trousers 1y ago
  Sorry but this is not a real value for certain people.
  - nrp 1y ago
    We saw that there was a gap in the market for laptops that treat Linux as a first-class OS target, and we design our products with that audience in mind. That there are other people in the world who don't need Linux is totally ok.
    - rrix2 1y ago
      thanks nirav :) looking forward to my sage 12 for linux-based couch surfing
    - bobthecowboy 1y ago
      My kid is a bit young, but this is the laptop he'll be getting in a year or so to replace the garbage Chromebook he's currently using (which has steadily gotten flakier since purchase). First class Linux support is requirement #1; Framework's repairability on top of that means there's not even anything else to consider. It will be the third Framework in our house. My wife is happily using the second, having easily switched to Ubuntu from Windows 10(?) when the video cable connection in her Dell XPS flaked out and made the screen useless.
    - AgentElement 1y ago
      First-class Linux support is the reason that half the regulars in my local Linux Users Group have Frameworks. It's probably the most common laptop brand I see in my tech circle, and anecdotally I can say that it has eclipsed thinkpads in my specific community.

pengaru 1y ago

Maybe I'm just not the target market, but I wouldn't pay even half the asking price for this. If I'm going to throw money away on overpriced underpowered laptops it's going to mnt's pockets. At least that's trying to be open hardware (reform).

criddell 1y ago

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I have the same complaint with Lenovo (I usually buy ThinkPads). Where are the fast, fanless, hidpi, long battery life laptops?

femiagbabiaka 1y ago
Competitive along which lines? Performance, yes, impossible. Battery life? Yes, impossible. Anything else? Definitely!
- lukan 1y ago
  Hm, aside from it working reliable, performance and battery are my top priority, though.
  - femiagbabiaka 1y ago
    IMO the Desktop is their real "killer app." Apple comes nowhere close to competing with it on a price/performance perspective.
mhitza 1y ago
> Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? Kind of unreasonable. I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well? On the topic of displays, my understanding is that they "kind of use what they can get". That's how there can be a 13 display with rounded corners in a straight edge case. What you're asking are the things I'm looking for, though still every time I go into their forum I see enough thermal, fan noise issues and AMD firmware bugs, that I'm still on the fence on buying one. I wish them luck with the 12, for me sounds like a model for "true believers" because it doesn't seem to compete well enough with run of the mill chromebooks (or an Air) that are more established in the students segment.

Chronoyes 1y ago

"60 percent of the SRGB color space" I never knew they made screens that bad anymore.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

lagniappe 1y ago

[flagged]

GardenLetter27 1y ago

The pricing is crazy, they need to halve the prices to be competitive with Apple and Lenovo on the high-end and ASUS on the low-end.

adityamwagh 1y ago
I guess that’s just the cost you have to pay for repairability and extension.
- libraryatnight 1y ago
  I've been using my framework 13 for a while now and it's been a great laptop - part of what pushed me over was their mission of making devices lives longer, my hope is and was that maybe the vote of confidence they survive long enough to build up to a model the Apple fans here would want or at least not complain about.
  - MostlyStable 1y ago
    I'm not sure that will ever happen. I own a Framework 16 (and am pretty happy with it), because I value repairability a lot. But the level of repairability and modularity that Framework is targeting comes with tradeoffs. This is simply the reality. Size, build quality/sturdiness, thermals, and more are going to take a hit when you have the extreme level of repairability and modularity. Framework laptops are probably never going to be the right solution for every kind of customer. And Macs are probably close the furthest thing on the opposite of the spectrum. Every choice is designed to tweak the design, aesthetics, battery life, etc. almost always at the expense of repairability. Someone who likes the part of the pareto frontier that Macs operate on is almost definitionally never going to be a Framework fan. For me, they are great, and I plan to continue to support them. But not everyone is interested in the tradeoffs inherent in their philosophy, and that's also fine.
    - libraryatnight 1y ago
      Yeah that's all true, I certainly don't need them to ever get to that point, but if they do it'll be because people bought into the mission first. Be the change and all that.

paddy_m 1y ago

What do you all use for a modern web development machine. 16GB of ram is no longer enough, I will soon upgrade to a new MBA with 32GB, but I still fear that won't be enough. I was looking at the latest framework and you can get it with 96GB of ram for $2k, that's $3600-$3800 for a mac and it's a much larger mac than I want. A quick scan of Dell and Lenovo non workstation class laptops didn't show any with more than 32GB. Memory used by various apps: docker VM take 8Gb for simple supabase images Firefox take 5-8GB BasedPyRight takes 2GB Nextjs server takes 2GB

devmor 1y ago
If you need an 8gb docker image as part of your local web development stack, that’s a toolchain problem.
- AlotOfReading 1y ago
  One of our vendors publishes a 70GB docker image as their SDK. It's awful.
  - devmor 1y ago
    That is horrendous. I'm assuming it contains some kind of giant dataset in its entirety?
    - AlotOfReading 1y ago
      No datasets. Most of the size is just apt packages and tools bundled into the layers. Around 5GB are "useful" things, and another 15GB are a couple of arguably justified tarballs (only one of which is needed).
      - devmor 1y ago
        That's even more infuriating. Just sheer incompetence wasting your valuable space and bandwidth.
1y ago

Lammy 1y ago

I really love the lavender — VAIO-core! I do wish I could get the other modules in lavender too, but I understand why they wouldn't want to fractally-complicate their stock keeping for those items. > the Laptop 12 can only fit a single DDR5 RAM slot, which reduces memory bandwidth and limits your RAM capacity to 48GB According to this post from a Framework team member, a single 64GB SODIMM will work too and just didn't exist yet at the time Intel wrote the 13th Gen spec, so they only advertize 48GB: https://community.frame.work/t/64gb-ram-for-framework-12-single-sodimm/67424/13 https://community.frame.work/t/64gb-ram-for-framework-12-sin... > Old, slow chip isn't really suitable for light gaming I wish the reviewer would specify what phrases like “light gaming” mean to them. My FW12 is in a later batch that won't ship for a few more months, but I'm coming from a ThinkPad T470s where I already do “light gaming” (mostly TBoI Repentence and Team Fortress 2 with mastercomfig medium-low). I can't imagine the 13th Gen graphics would be worse in that regard than my old laptop's 7th Gen. Not having Thunderbolt seemed like kind of a bummer to me too, but then again my T470s has it and I can't think of a single time I ever actually used it for anything. I tried one of those external GPU enclosures once, and it was kinda cool just to see that such a thing was possible, but I've never been one to want to tether a laptop with a thicc cable lol

nrp 1y ago
TF2 will absolutely run smoothly. I’ve been playing Persona 5 on my Framework Laptop 12.
mananaysiempre 1y ago
> a single 64GB SODIMM will work too Wait, are 64GB DDR5 SODIMMs finally out? I’ve been monitoring that for ages but almost lost hope.
- throawayonthe 1y ago
  seems so! https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#ff=ddr5_sodimm&Z=65536001,131072001,131072002,262144004,524288008 https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#ff=ddr5_sodimm&Z=6...
- nrp 1y ago

throw0101d 1y ago

Meta: the purple-lavender colour brings back memories of Sun's purple-blue logo: * https://dogemicrosystems.ca/pub/Sun/media/logos/Sun-Microsystems-purple.svg https://dogemicrosystems.ca/pub/Sun/media/logos/Sun-Microsys...

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

theodric 1y ago

> "A sturdy, thoughtful, cute design that just can't compete in its price range." People will pay untold thousands for a Mac, but God forbid when a PC manufacturer charges more than $599 for a laptop. If you're whining about the price, Framework isn't made for you. Go buy that Acer that you really want. The Framework is Sam Vimes' expensive boots that are made to last[1], and I've happily paid in full to get a pair. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

masklinn 1y ago
> People will pay untold thousands for a Mac, but God forbid when a PC manufacturer charges more than $599 for a laptop. The article compares the FL12 to laptops of the same price range, including other framework laptops to note that it falls short. The FL12 has worse performances and battery life than an M1 Air, for more than an M4. The point of the article is that the 12 should either be a lot less expensive or it should be a lot better. It's not whatever nonsense you're dreaming of.
- MostlyStable 1y ago
  The core philosophy of Framework is repairability and modularity. Yes, you are paying extra for those things, and so people who do not value them, should probably not buy Framework. These comments are full of the old cliche of judging a fish in a tree climbing contest. Repairabilty and modularity come with tradeoffs. Not everyone is going to value those tradeoffs and therefore shouldn't buy a laptop where those are the priority. But some people do value those things, and telling them to "get a MacBook" is just silly.
- theodric 1y ago
  You can repair a Mac by handing it (and possibly your wallet) to Apple and letting them replace entire large subsystems to remedy the issue and pair the new parts. A few years back (pre-Apple Silicon) I got a new top case, keyboard, battery, and trackpad because the button in the trackpad had failed. Pretty good deal on a laptop that was nearly 3 years old, in fairness. To repair (or upgrade) a Framework, you buy the part and install it. That's worth something to me! Incidentally, I also have a last-gen ThinkPad P14s Gen 5 AMD and it's a flimsy POS. Already needed a new motherboard and battery and spent three weeks sitting at the service center while they rounded up the parts. Wish I'd bought another Framework 13.

username223 1y ago

I wish them the best, but if they can't compete with a MacBook Air on price despite Apple's huge profit margins, then maybe it's just not meant to be. People used to talk about paying the "Apple tax," but how many people are willing to pay the "Linux tax?" Mac OS is a similar Unix with the usual tools, and you can rent a VPS if you need Linux on an x86 sometimes. An MBA with an M4 will last 5+ years with a battery swap, and still probably perform better than whatever Framework releases in 2030. I guess I'm not the target customer for this. I can see myself tinkering with a desktop, but I'd rather just have a laptop that runs fast and long enough, and stands up to abuse for 3-5 years.

sixothree 1y ago
$1500 for 48 GB and 2 TB? Am I missing something here?
- username223 1y ago
  Yes, Apple screws you on SSDs, so that 2 TB adds a lot. If you need it, and don't want an external SSD (2 TB costs $150), the Framework is cheaper with a slower CPU. Maxing internal storage on a Mac laptop is a bad idea if cost matters to you. EDIT: I haven't felt the need to spec a programming laptop like that. 16/512 feels fast enough, and 32/512 would have room to bloat... er, I mean grow. But I don't use a local LLM, and I don't know whether the difference between a heavily-quantized thing that fits in 16 GB and whatever you can fit in 48 is significant versus the ones running on absurd data center CPUs.
  - sixothree 1y ago
    Can you even buy 256 GB SSDs any more?

cjcenizal 1y ago

I love the Galvatron color scheme! Feels techy yet nostalgic.

jbm 1y ago
I was thinking BW2 Galvatron too — looks great. After reading everyone's comments about price I expected it would be much worse. I might consider it after my current laptop dies.

losvedir 1y ago

> modular, repairable, upgradeable laptops In terms of phones, I largely disagree with the conventional wisdom that repairable, upgradeable, Androids are better for the environment, more cost effective for the user, etc than iPhones. It's true you can't upgrade the battery yourself, but that's a different quality from whether the battery can be upgraded. And iPhones have a much higher resale value, so they're going to end up in landfills more slowly. I personally bought and use a used iPhone 11 that came with a replaced battery, and it's great! Old iPhones have a long useful life after trade in and resale, even if people buying new models here don't see it. So I'd love to know how much this is the case for laptops like these as well. For example, "repairable" is useful to the extent that repairs actually need to happen, and it seems to mean "self" repairable, though again that's a different dimension from whether a service center can do it. And whether you need self repairable is not a thing about longevity, environmental impact (since repair centers suffice for that), but rather convenience and possibly price. But price isn't the factor here because the thing is so damn expensive to begin with. "Upgradeable" is useful if you want to.... improve a piece of it but not the chassis? Screen? How necessary is this? Do people really do that? I've been happy to use a laptop for half a decade or more, until finally upgrading everything all at once.

presbyterian 1y ago
I also feel like Android phones stop getting OS updates (including security fixes) much faster than iPhones. You can root them and install a newer version of Android, I guess, but the vast majority of people won't do that. Also, I haven't been on Android in a few years, so maybe I'm wrong and this isn't a problem anymore, but it certainly was in the past.
- staindk 1y ago
  A Lot of improvement has happened on Android regarding this. I think Samsungs have 6 or 7 years of guaranteed software updates, as do Pixel phones.
prophesi 1y ago
It doesn't just mean self-repairable; you could still go in to a service center. It just wouldn't have to be an Apple approved one. And would be a lot cheaper due to the reduced costs of labor, and likely increase of third-party parts, particularly if they become modular / standardized. I had a friend who'd replace phone screens and batteries, but at some point it was no longer worth the hassle.

butz 1y ago

We need more 10"-12" sized laptops. I regret selling my netbook in hopes a device with a bit better specs would come.

kelnos 1y ago
Agreed. I miss my old 12" Powerbook, and a ~2010-ish-era 11" MacBook Air. Then again, you end up with underpowered hardware; I don't think something in an 11" MBA form factor would have the beefiness I require these days.

9283409232 1y ago

> The Core i5 version of the Laptop 12 lasted around 10 hours in the PCMark Modern Office battery life test, which isn't stunning but is a step up from what the fully specced versions of the Framework Laptop 13 can offer. It will be just fine for a long flight or a full day of work or school. This is the key. Framework 12 is a model aimed at schools and corporations. I wouldn't be surprised to see a ChromeOS version of it appear for schools. Which is great if they can tap into that market.

kybernetikos 1y ago
It's a bit surprising to find so little in these comments and the original review talking about the youth first laptop use-case. Lots of schools require a touch screen, and kids are going to break parts even on a fairly rugged laptop. All these people talking about MacBook Airs are missing the point. None of the schools around me have MacBook Airs as allowed laptops for kids BYOD and even if they did, I'm not sure they'd have a long life getting the kinds of hits and knocks that will happen being carried everywhere in high school by a 12 year old. This laptop is obviously for this use case. I know of no other laptop that really covers this use case well. Typically laptops aimed at this segment are cheaper, but not rugged, not easy to repair, and not really very nice. I strongly suspect that I'll only have to replace the screen or keyboard once before the total cost of ownership works out compared to a normal laptop.

nucleardog 1y ago

> A good laptop, but not a good value Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line. They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line. That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products. It has value as an easily repairable and customizable laptop. It has value in some esoteric use cases it can be customized into (e.g., 4xM.2 NVME slots). Would love to see some reviews just get this out of the way up front and spend more words on the product itself. Personally, I'm glad there's a company out there serving a market niche besides being the lowest cost, most value-engineered product. I don't mind paying a bit extra for that in exchange for the other value I get out of it. (And all that said--at the high end specs their prices get a fair bit more competitive. The price to upgrade a laptop from 16GB -> 128GB on Dell's site is _more than an entire FW16 w/ Ryzen 9 + 96GB RAM_.)

m463 1y ago
this same lack of critical thinking is why you can't search for decently-rated dumb tvs, because they lose points for not being smart. sigh.
atrus 1y ago
I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.
- nucleardog 1y ago
  Yeah, I personally take that into account however I can see why someone may not. Framework has released fairly consistent upgrades for the Framework 13, but there's no guarantee that they will continue to do so, will release upgrades for the Framework 16, etc. I think in a few years when they've been in business for closer to a decade than not and released updates across the whole product line, it'd be pretty hard for anyone to make an argument that that _shouldn't_ be factored in.

ItCouldBeWorse 1y ago

> A good laptop, but not a good value One of my mentors had the great sentence: "I dont buy laptops- they suck, because they are tailored to transport. I buy desktops- and connect them via internet to flat transportable terminals. And desktops can be upgraded, merged, reused and send to the closet as server at the EOL-" And he was kind of right. For almost all purposes, even for gaming in a way- a remote desktop is kind of superior. Yes, stadia is dead- but for everything else- this shall do.

atrus 1y ago
Using Steam Streaming/Moonlight-Sunlight/Tailscale is a dream for remote gaming.
- ItCouldBeWorse 1y ago
  You are absolutely right- forgive me, im kind of out of touch with the whole steam revolutionizing gaming on linux. I think the comment about the "transporttax" on hardware, ergonomic and cooling still holds up though even in a world where things like steam-deck exist. Even more so, if you may have lightweight ar-headsets one day, with a glorified cellphone + mouse and keyboard.
patwoz 1y ago
Nah, it’s ok for browsing the internet and for „slow“ games but for anything else it sucks
ItCouldBeWorse 1y ago
One could argue, that the "reusability" of the laptopbricks, in a desktop-server blade like structure is the biggest argument for the framework as a laptop though.
mac-attack 1y ago
I am of the same mind. Desktop for heavy lifting and a mid-range Chromebook (technically a chrultrabook now) for browsing w/ a lightweight yet modern feel. I do think the plunge to leveraging a desktop/server across devices does require an understanding of ssh/rdp and tailscale/reverse proxies though, which is why it isn't as popular as it could be.

UncleOxidant 1y ago

From the pics there this laptop does not have a matte surface on the screen? Looks like a glossy screen. One would hope matte is an option. EDIT: Yes, it looks like matte is an option and they don't charge extra.

nrp 1y ago
Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16 are matte. Framework Laptop 12 has coverglass (non-matte) to get the durability needed for stylus support.

rfwhyte 1y ago

I'd be a lot more into Framework if they had come out with a single other GPU option than the Radeon 7700S that's been the only GPU option available since the brands launch. The 7800M and 7900M have both been out over a year or more, and Framework has made zero mention of when or even if those models would ever be available as upgrades for Framework devices. I don't even really play games, but for my video editing workloads, more GPU cores and VRAM make a world of difference, and the RTX 3070 level of performance out of the RX7700s that's thus far the only GPU option for Framework devices just doesn't cut it. There's just no way I'm spending $2500+ USD for a laptop that has worse performance than devices costing half as much at this point. They just aren't really delivering on the promise of "Future upgradeability" in any kind of meaningful way so far, and I just can't see the value in purchasing what's undeniably a wildly overpriced machine based on promises that have yet to be delivered upon. They've had plenty of time to communicate when, or even if, new GPUs are coming, yet there's been absolute radio silence from the on this front. Personally I think they need to focus more on actually delivering on the fundamental promise of the brand, that being future upgradeability, than on releasing new devices, as until they can demonstrate they are committed to delivering on their promises, I won't be buying any of their devices.

justinrubek 1y ago
Why would you buy a 12 inch laptop for video editing?
wffurr 1y ago
They already released several updated mainboards for the 13 and 16 with newer Intel and AMD chips.

rkagerer 1y ago

At the high end, what are some alternative laptops you would consider which are not Apple? (Preferably with full-sized arrow keys)

Const-me 1y ago
Couple months ago, I have replaced 3.5 years old HP Probook with XMG EVO 14. Specifically, I have ordered a configuration with Ryzen 7 8845HS, 64GB DDR5-5600, and no disks because I reused 4TB WD Red SN700 from the old laptop, and still have the second M2 2280 slot free should I need more storage. Pretty good laptop, the screen is great even, colour-calibrated 2880×1800 IPS configurable to 60 Hz refresh rate. However, the up/down arrow keys are not full size, their height is smaller.
bryanhogan 1y ago
I've been considering getting a Framework for a long time now, but I think I'll just get a Thinkpad instead once I need to replace my current 5 year-old laptop. Edit: Just noticed the full sized arrow keys part, don't think Thinkpads have that.

ls-a 1y ago

I can't believe companies are still squishing those arrow keys together. How could this terrible keyboard design drag for so long

wffurr 1y ago
Who needs arrow keys when you have hjkl?

caycep 1y ago

I was thinking of posting one of those Ask HN things re what ppl thought were the best laptops for linux in 2025, i.e. a Thinkpad, a Framework, a System76...or a MacBook running utm...

spankibalt 1y ago

"Interesting" product placement (already within their portfolio, compared to the Framework 13). Sadly, they didn't succeed in making their unique features (compared to their and the market's other offerings) really useful by: 1. Using substandard digitzer tech (something as performant and economical as Wacom EMR is needed). One cannot compromise here. I get that this might also be a licensing issue. 2. Making the device too big. 10.3 inch or smaller is better; the possibility of using the device in a train's or on a plane's fold-away tray table, just to be stashed away in a cross-body or small messenger bag after use, is still a killer feature. More real estate (by way of screens, ultraportable projectors, et cetera) can always be thrown into the mix later. 3. Choosing a wrong, or to be more precise obsolete, form factor. It needed to be a detachable for more modularity and flexibility. So, it's just another, admittedly very maintainable, premium-priced classic convertible. Its attached keyboard is a design-compromising dead weight and/or wasted space whenever not in use, very much like (the unused) maneuvering jets on older VTOL aircraft while in conventional flight. 4. The display is not of primary importance here, but there's no need to make it that bad. Top-notch, wide-color, flicker-free IPS displays do exist. 5. Sturdy but lightweight metal, not plastic. And so the search for a well-designed, modular SFF general computing device continues. They nailed the colors tho, and hopefully continue to set an example in Linux support. I wish them plenty sales, I'm sure the machine will find its fans.

brunoqc 1y ago
> 10.3 inch or smaller is better Any good non-apple devices have that?
- spankibalt 1y ago
  I don't know what use case you represent. Me, as a very picky sort-of-hater of all things that reek of smartphone, I'm looking at several devices to acquire: 1. Lenovo Legion Go 2: Windows (and possible Linux adaptability), Switch-like, will for some bizarre reason probably get an OLED display, might be at least Wacom AES compatible, pocket rocket with yet unkown but likely sketchy battery life, 8.8 inch. Not out yet. 2. 4th Gen Lenovo Y700 (AKA Legion Tab): Android (don't know how well de-Googleing etc. on Lenovo devices works), outstanding IPS display according to all the relevant ads and brochures, Snapdragon Elite, plenty memory, no 3.5 mm audio jack but mSD card slot and two USB-C ports, possible Wacom AES compatibility, etc. Display size also 8.8 inch, and also not out yet. 3. Samsung Galaxy Tab Active5 Pro: 10.1 inch, semi-rugged, Wacom EMR penabled, hot-swappable dual battery configuration, 3.5 mm audio jack, mSD card slot, USB-C 3.2, TFT LCD (120 Hz, 600 nits), Snapdragon 7s Gen 3, a measly 8 GB RAM, Android with Samsung's patented shackles (i. e. very hard to de-Google), corpo long-term support, etc. Essentially a slightly enlarged, but largely performative update of the Active5 below. 4. Samsung Galaxy Tab Active5, a classic example of corporate bean counting to the highest degree: 8.0 inch, semi-rugged, Wacom EMR, removable battery, 3.5 mm audio, mSD... but only USB-C 2.0, 8 GB of RAM, a rather weak processor, and rather meagre accessory support. Also available in a MIL-SPEC version with some extra goodies thrown in. 5. I'm also looking at some semi-rugged Dells and Panasonics. None have Wacom EMR capability. The only other established device makers that serve my use case at least in terms of display size are Chinese knock-offs with questionable support. Outside of that there's only the Steamdeck experience with integrated gaming controls, a form factor I have zero interest in, or small indie-engineered Linux hopefuls (e. g. the 7-inch version of Soulscircuit's Pilet UMPC)... which often suffer from poor energy management and therefore battery life, as well as "enthusiast-grade" support. ;)

toastercat 1y ago

I was this close to buying the newest generation Framework, but in the end, could not justify the price when I found a far better bang for my buck and respectable self-repairability with a refurbished Gen 5 T14. It's even surprisingly thin and light.

pdimitar 1y ago

I dig this laptop a lot but two things have put me off: 1. No full AMD options. I don't trust Intel's thermals and performance for several years now. Maybe they have rebounded but I no longer care. For me it's "AMD or get away from me". 2. No backlit keyboard. There is no excuse for this in 2025! I can forgive a lot of things, lack of biometric auth included, but no backlit keyboard is a cardinal sin. I don't care about price. At this point I am ready to pay extra for libre hardware that is 100% open/free source ready and even working best with it. I would easily pay Macbook prices for a machine. But going for Intel and for no backlit keyboard -- nope. Hope somebody from Frame.Work is reading. AMD has better thermals! (Or had, a few years ago, again, haven't checked in a while.)

0000000000100 1y ago

Our company bought about 4-5 Framework 13s, and boy were they a bad experience. All sorts of driver issues, random crashes, USB ports not working right, etc. Just about all of them had some kind of issue, which is really fun when your PM has a USB port not work randomly. Ended up going back to HP laptops, 30% cheaper for the same specs and they just work consistently. Would love to hear a hobbyist perspective, Frameworks are not a good choice for a business but I would be interested to hear if the replaceable parts / ports provided value for someone. My gut feeling is that something that can't be replaced easily in the Frameworks will die and it'll just end up being cheaper to replace the whole laptop.

chickensong 1y ago
The first run of Frameworks had a weak hinge on the monitor, which isn't an uncommon problem with other brands of laptop. With Framework, you can easily replace the hinge, but that's unlikely with most other brands, and you'll need to pay to replace the entire monitor. Another example, I didn't need an HDMI port anymore, and wanted an extra USB-C instead. Just a few bucks to swap with Framework, but impossible with other laptops. I did have an issue with one of my USB ports on the Framework however. It was solved by removing the module and updating the bios firmware. Can't say I've ever had that happen with another laptop. I agree they're probably not ready for business use yet, where cost is the primary measurement.
- Tijdreiziger 1y ago
  It seems that the swappable modules would also make it easy for someone to install e.g. a keylogger, though.
  - TheGuyWhoCodes 1y ago
    You can lock the modules with a button and also screw them in from the inside. Not saying it's perfect but it's a far cry from just swapping a module.
  - wpm 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

MangoToupe 1y ago

Does anyone else see the touchscreen as a straight-up downside? I don't want that, have no need for it, absolutely do not want anyone touching my screen, and it's just more shit that can break. It looks fantastic aside from that, though.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

I have a Framework 12 laptop running Ubuntu. I use it mostly for dev (so I don't care about gaming, Windows, etc.). I mostly like it, but I have two gripes: - the touchpad is atrocious - battery life is mediocre

brunoqc 1y ago
How come you already have a Framework 12?
- insane_dreamer 1y ago
  My bad! - meant to write 13
  - brunoqc 1y ago
    Thanks for the reply. I hope they listen to feedback and improve the touchpad and the battery.

class3shock 1y ago

For anyone considering the 16, mine has had some teething issues (1. motherboard failed and I was sent a replacement 2. keyboard/touchpad started having a issue losing connection which I still need to submit a ticket for). The USB A port also feels like it's gonna break at some point (the rest seem fine). The linux experience has been about the same as on a Dell XPS 13 with the consistent issues being poor battery life and an inability to sleep properly. If I were to do it again I would get the 13 not the 16 but would still give it a shot.

poisonborz 1y ago

I just wish somebody would make a quality, powerful 2in1 laptop model with a long commitment. Thinkpad X Yogas were the ones, but their price/perf is down the drain and you can't get one with DGPU. There were some passable gaming models from others but with the usual QA issues of non-business products, and mostly one-off experiments/no refreshes. Dear HA, tent mode in a laptop is great, please generate more enthusiast demand.

jekwoooooe 1y ago

I like the idea of framework but after using a MacBook for years and having an iPhone, there’s just no competition. Even if the performance could be the same, you just simply don’t have the ecosystem. I can mirror my phone on my Mac (securely). I have unified clipboard and notifications. Not to mention all the other apps that just work across all my Apple devices. Enterprise and commercial software support… I could go on. An I used to run a fully riced out tiled arch setup.

simonh 1y ago
The counter argument is that Apple could, and should make their devices just as repairable and upgradable and we’d have the best of both worlds. I don’t entirely buy it, I think architectures like the Framework are a trade off, not a pure win. Google tried to build a modular phone but the project seems to have fallen apart (Ho, ho).
- jekwoooooe 1y ago
  Sure they could but they have an edge like framework has an edge. If you value the idea that you can theoretically repair your laptop one day (which is an assumption that it will break) more than everyday usability and features… then that’s your choice. Outside of breaking a screen I’ve never one had a laptop just “break”. And for anything else well… there’s AppleCare.
  - righthand 1y ago
    Not everyone using a computer can afford Apple products and Apple service repair services. Good for you, but maybe start with your privilege as a difference.
    - simonh 1y ago
      Just a data point, but I've had three devices repaired by Apple. One was in warranty (just), the other two times they weren't but Apple did the repair for free anyway. You certainly can't rely on them doing the latter, it's at their discretion, but they often do anyway.

XorNot 1y ago

When are we getting a decent keyboard? I would buy a Framework but the keyboard is as junk as every other laptop keyboard out there right now. The whole "MacBook" trend of laptop keyboards has ruined the entire industry. I want the old style low travel keyboard we had which still had some travel, a dense layout and actual shape to the key caps.

kybernetikos 1y ago
I used to really like the keyboard on the old think pad t series, like the T60. But it seems that everyone is doing 'island' keys these days.

red369 1y ago

Just my own anecdote about the Framework 13: I also felt I paid a MacBook price, but was much happier paying for future repairability/upgradability. I am so sick of buying things that feel disposable that I would a pay a premium not to. But I have a dream that Framework will change one thing that seems so trivial, and which would make my relationship with my Framework laptop and purchase decision so much simpler. If they can't ship replacement parts for faults/design flaws outside of their supported regions, which is understandable even if frustrating, at least allow me to use freight forwarding! I'm now living in a country Framework don't ship to, and so every small fault I have ever had with their product is permanent. I had goodwill for years, but being stuck with their design fault with the backup battery system has tipped me to no longer recommending buying from them. Obviously most people don't move countries, so this won't be an issue for them, but it's the feeling that they didn't seem to try hard to find a solution. It's the opposite of what I felt early on when I found their excellent documentation on faults, and their BIOS updates which addressed every complaint (adjustable brightness of power LED, limit charging capacity to a percentage). That feeling, and an effectively non-repairable laptop, are things I could have bought from anyone!

red369 1y ago
I should add that even now, I probably wouldn't recommend just going out and buying just any laptop over the Framework. They're still the company moving the most in the direction I like. For people who just don't want to think about this stuff (generally not HN readers), I'd suggest trying to find the minimum Apple laptop which would get you by for a few years. Their base level computers feel like amazing value, but the prices to upgrade RAM and SDD are brutal at purchase, and it's impossible afterwards. For anyone who I think would have the appetite, refurbished corporate laptops are very solid, quite repairable, and good value. I think those both those options are actually very high bars to beat, so if Framework hasn't jumped straight to beating those yet, that's still not necessarily a terrible thing.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

st3fan 1y ago

No ARM64 option :-(

nixpulvis 1y ago

Am I the only one who thinks it's foolish not to have a darker color option? Or something more professional? These all remind me of kindergarten.

broodbucket 1y ago
it's explicitly designed for younger people, they'd say Framework Laptop 13 is what you're describing
- nixpulvis 1y ago
  I see.

nektro 1y ago

i run nixos on a framework 13 and it runs perfectly with all features working as i'd expect. running linux natively and knowing the good the company is doing good is priceless. will definitely be buying another someday.

SV_BubbleTime 1y ago
Linux Mint, FW13, battery has a slow drain while off and dead most of times I go to use it. It’s OK, but I’m not sure I would make the same selection today. Their price is just too high.

wpm 1y ago

I wish Framework made a small laptop with inverted-T arrow keys. I *hated* the full height left and right keys on my old touchbar MacBook Pro, and rejoiced when they wisely fixed that mistake. I don't need to go to a 16, the only laptop they sell with the proper arrow key arrangement. I need something small and cheerful as a secondary Linux laptop, and ugh, the 12 and the 13 come so so close, only to trip right before the finish line.

lofaszvanitt 1y ago

Looks fucking ugly. Even the logo is terrible. And the colours make you feel nauseous. Instead of nuthugging the compute power of these things, why not make something that looks and feels lovable. Is that so much to ask? Like the pixel phones, which are the ugliest, nastiest looking shitpile I've ever seen. And they slam it down the throats of people. In nature, even supposedly ugly things look OK, but in the artificial industrial world, things look ugly and out of place. I don't know how they achieve this. But it must be something around, 'Oh, this part costs so much', or someone who has power over things he/she shouldn't have, so we instead create these horrendous-looking monster machines that suck our souls.