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TSMC begins producing 4-nanometer chips in Arizona
- dtquad 2y agoSo many people wanted this to fail.
- UltraSane 2y agoWhy?
- YetAnotherNick 2y agoMany commenters on HN have this weird idea that if Taiwan is slightly ahead of competition, US would defend Taiwan against a country with nukes. Or that TSMC superiority is Taiwan's national security issue.
- crimsonalucard 2y ago[dead]
- UltraSane 2y agoThe US would probably defend Taiwan if the CCP invaded it. I don't think we would ever use nukes.
- ekianjo 2y agoDefend with what exactly?
- YetAnotherNick 2y agoYou think if say US bombs all the CCP's planes, CCP would sit silently and accept defeat? Same thing happened with Ukraine. NATO couldn't escalate the war at any cost, so they can just play safe and only do things that don't risk escalation.
- varjag 2y agoIf the Russia case suggests anything it's that yes, they'll sit silently and absorb the losses behind all the nuclear bravado.
- _heimdall 2y agoI'm not sure I would consider Russia having sat silent though. They've continued the war for nearly 2 years now (or 10 if you go back to 2014) and have worked with allies to have foreign troops fighting on Ukrainian soil.
- varjag 2y agoThe full scale invasion is entering its fourth year in fact. But I was addressing the nuclear war fears expressed above. Experience show you can hit anything in Russia (including the Kremlin) without nuclear retaliation.
- _heimdall 2y agoYep, it takes me about a month to get the new year in my head apparently, I did the quick math based on 2024. Anyone expecting nuclear retaliation for the strikes that have been made inside Russian territory has no grasp on what it really means for a country to use a nuke, or has no confidence in a nuclear power understanding the basic game theory of what would come next. Russia would never use a nuke when a small number of missiles or drones made it past their air defence and cause minor damage on Russian soil.
- ceejayoz 2y agoThe NATO strategy in Ukraine hasn’t been great for Ukraine, but the old cold warriors of the 1980s would be pissing their pants to find how well it worked against the Russians. Wiping out significant portions of their army, navy, and air force for a fraction of a single year’s budget and not a single American death?
- nwatson 2y agoTaiwan would strike Three Gorges Dam and kill millions. CCP should focus on Siberia.
- api 2y agoHonestly, if China wants to just go take that Eastern half of Russia they are welcome. Nobody would stop them and much of the world would cheer. I've wondered if China encouraged Russia to invade Ukraine to weaken them so they can become a Chinese vassal state to supply raw materials.
- knowitnone 2y agothe West can take the other half
- maxglute 2y agoNo they wouldn't, TW doesn't have the ordnance or ability to deliver said ordnance to structurally damage a gravity dam, especially one size of three gorges. They're much better off hitting PRC coastal nuclear (something that worries PRC planners), either way, it's suicide by war crime.
- UltraSane 2y agoIs it still a war crime AFTER the CCP invades with the goal of completely replacing the Taiwanese government?
- sofixa 2y agoYes. If Ukraine executes Russian POWs, or firebombs Moscow, it's still a war crime even if Russia invaded with the goal of genociding them (yes, saying an ethnicity doesn't really exist and they're just confused Russians, kidnapping children to resettle elsewhere, and forcefully assimilating at gunpoint everyone in the occupied territories is genocide). War crimes are absolute, there's no "if you weren't first, you get one free".
- 2y ago
- sashank_1509 2y agoDoesn’t TSMC building a plant in US, offset the need for US to invade Taiwan. Perhaps Taiwan expects US support out of goodwill, but I think Taiwan overestimates how much goodwill drives US politics. Taiwan might have had a better chance of getting support, if it maintained a monopoly on circuit production.
- sofixa 2y ago> Many commenters on HN have this weird idea that if Taiwan is slightly ahead of competition, US would defend Taiwan against a country with nukes. Or that TSMC superiority is Taiwan's national security issue. Well... TSMC is definitely a component of Taiwan's national security. It's called the "Silicon Shield" for a reason. And the US definitely has more reasons to go to war, and more importantly, threaten war to prevent one breaking out, over Taiwan if it knows there will be a massive economic impact. And China definitely knows that if Taiwan is important for the US, it's almost certain the US would defend it.
- corimaith 2y ago[flagged]
- jart 2y agoBoth countries are officially named China, so only one can be right.
- XorNot 2y agoAt an international politics level, what is "officially" called what doesn't mean much.
- mainecoder 2y agoThere is only One China hence the One China Policy.
- knowitnone 2y agoyou mean One Taiwan Policy
- jmartin2683 2y agoThey want war? Someone else’s, at that? Crazy.
- gadders 2y agoWhy do you think it's a weird idea? It's a strategic asset as much as oilfields are.
- YetAnotherNick 2y agoBecause Samsung and Intel would probably close the gap by the time the war is done. They are just 2-4 years behind with the gaps already closing in.
- crimsonalucard 2y ago[dead]
- energy123 2y agoSome people are against industrial policy (like the CHIPS Act) because they don't believe that market failure exists. Some people are against Biden/Dems. Some people are clueless about the foreign policy and the geopolitical reality in Asia and take the status quo regional power balance as a given.
- rtkwe 2y agoNot on the I want it to fail side but my main question is why we put this water intensive industry in Arizona instead of further east where water is less stressed as a resource? Seems like it would be way better off being somewhere in the eastern half of the country or at least not in the Southwest.
- TrapLord_Rhodo 2y agowater is a non-issue. The main issue in deciding where a factory should go is which state will give you the most to do it.
- wumeow 2y agoMany commenters just hate America.
- markhahn 2y agoLike who? Rabid globalization fans?
- Over2Chars 2y agoAbout time. I seem to recall some detail about how they don't do the packaging, and that' still on the mother island. This suggests that may be the case: https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/04/tsmc_amkor_arizona/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/04/tsmc_amkor_arizona/ It's a move in the right direction, but not as much as may be needed.
- alephnerd 2y agoPackaging isn't done by TSMC. Packaging is extremely low value and commodified, so companies prefer to contract it out to OSATs like Amkor. Same reason why most companies became fabless - margins are much more competitive this way compared to owning your own fab.
- typ 2y agoThis margin-oriented mindset is arguably one of the driving factors that makes the US lose its industrial base.
- alephnerd 2y agoCompanies in every country have this mindset. Even Taiwan has largely offshored packaging to ASEAN, China, and India. And Taiwan got packaging because the Japanese manufacturers offshored to there.
- selimthegrim 2y agoAren’t Intel and Samsung doing packaging research in the US?
- alephnerd 2y agoThe research capacity for almost everything semiconductors related was almost always in the US, but before the CHIPS act, there wasn't much of an incentive to invest in expanding that capacity here (aside from Texas and Arizona, who had very strong semiconductor public-private programs), because the margins are just too dang low to attract any private investment domestically. The semiconductor industry is multifaceted, and it's very difficult to be competitive in every single segment of it. For example, Taiwan does great at fabrication, but is horrid at chip design. Israel and India are major chip design hubs but are horrid at fabrication. Malaysia is THE packaging and testing hub, but weak at fabrication and nonexistent in design.
- dr_dshiv 2y agoFor some reason I’m concerned with being able to find the labor required to make this succeed. I really wish them the best.
- bwb 2y agoThere were a ton of media scare articles on this when it came out. It turns out it didn't pan out and staffing sounds solid. https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/whos-afraid-of-east-asian-management https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/whos-afraid-of-east-asian-mana... Point #1 on: https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/at-least-five-interesting-things-d27 https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/at-least-five-interesting-thin...
- mywittyname 2y agoIt's not like silicon chip manufacturing was an industry that many Americans could get a job in. So it makes sense that the country wouldn't have that many people able to fill these roles, or universities churning out people with those skills. It's a chicken and egg problem. Which is why this fab will import worker while local universities put into place pipelines to educate potential candidates and hopefully make the industry self-sufficient.
- dotdi 2y agoCan't wait to see the factory in Germany also starting to pump out chips.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoGerman TSMC fab will produce 16nm there, not 4nm though. Useful for the auto industry but much lower margin and less strategically important than 4nm fab in the US.
- KronisLV 2y agoThat's still nice, especially considering that it’s somewhere between Haswell and Broadwell from 2014. Maybe not the kind of progress or initiative that gets headlines, but neither is it trying to push as far as what Intel has been trying to do for the past few years.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoSure, but coming dead last behind Taiwan, Korea, US, Japan and China in the race to cutting edge semiconductor manufacturing is nothing to brag about. That's like celebrating for coming last. This means you're getting the lowest industry margins, meaning less profits, less money for R&D, less wages and also less geopolitical leverage. This is nothing to celebrate but should be an alarm clock for our elected leader to wake the f up. A lot of semi research is done in the EU, like at IMEC in Belgium, but few of it ends up commercialized by EU companies, so EU taxpayer money gets spent but other nations get to reap the rewards.
- bwb 2y agoSmall steps, hopefully they move up from there.
- lm28469 2y agoI don't think they want cutting edge tech, they want to be able to not have to stop their entire industry during the next pandemic/war/whatever just because they can't get their hands on a $2 chip made on the other side of the world
- antirez 2y agoThe point here would be that after N years, US workers at the site would gain enough insights to replicate the processes with American companies? Because otherwise what's the point? Will TSMC allow that? Because to just have more internal "normal" jobs in the US is a small gain. There is a big ST site here in Catania, while they produce many chips most of the workers are blue collars.
- smallerfish 2y agoThe point is redundancy in case China follows through on their threats to invade.
- Pet_Ant 2y agoThis redundancy makes me worried that the US will view Taiwanese sovereignty as disposable. While the US has given much for the defence of Ukraine, it’s always been careful to make sure it’s not enough for Ukraine to win but only enough to make it expensive for Russia hopping they’ll reconsider. Russia has won there and I suspect they’ll joe be willing to let China have the islands now too.
- ekianjo 2y ago> Taiwanese sovereignty as disposable Your are describing the statu quo as almost no country officially recognizes Taiwan
- ForHackernews 2y agoShort of nuclear weapons, I'm not sure what would allow Ukraine to "win". Even given all the hardware, Ukraine doesn't have the staff or experience to field a full NATO air wing and integrate it to fight according to NATO combined arms doctrine -- if that even WOULD produce a "win" (there is an untested assumption that a NATO-standard military could trounce Russia)
- XorNot 2y agoUkraine needs to hold the line, keep Russia sanctioned and let it burn itself out economically...or wait for Putin to die. The Russian economy is grinding to dust right now, and the Soviet vehicle inheritance evaporating. At some point, they stop being able to pay workers and troops, and while martial law can keep things moving, it's all getting much more expensive after that. Putin has been very careful to try and keep the war awaybfrom his Moscow powerbase...so it's clear he recognises his authority and position is far from unlimited.
- wdb 2y agoI wished they produced the chips in Europe instead of United States.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoThey do in Dresden Germany, but not nearly as cutting edge as the ones in US and Taiwan. US is a more useful strategic ally for Taiwan than EU. Not to mention the more expensive energy in Germany vs the US. EU finds out the hard way that not having had energy independence plus a weak/non-existent military relying mostly on the US, has costly second order externalities that voters never think about or factor in their decisions(I'm European). The best way to have peace is to always be ready for war. Being a non-armed hippie pacifist nation sounds good in some utopic fantasy world like the Smurfs, but in reality it only invites aggression from powerful despots like Putin and Xi and even your strong ally, the US, can exploit your moment of weakness and security dependence on it, to push its own agenda and trade terms on you. After all, whenever EU falters, America gains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE-E1lQunm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE-E1lQunm0
- jraby3 2y agoThat's true, but there is a large financial cost to always being ready for war. The US has spent 80 years being the "policeman of the world" for good or bad. Lots of bad decisions but the world also takes for granted the open seas, etc. that come at a great cost to Americans in reduced social services like health insurance and higher education.
- throw5959 2y agoNonsense, Americans pay the most for health insurance. It's merely about how you use the money. Same with education. The American economy is so great it could afford an entire second military industrial complex and still have enough money left for healthcare and education.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoFirstly, you don't need to spend America levels (more than than the next world powers combined) to have an efective military deterrent, since currently most EU member states barely spend 2% GDP on defense which is too little. You can have a strong military AND welfare services if you're smart about your state finances which many EU members are not(looking at you Germany), especially since defense investments create more jobs and innovations flowing back into the state coffers. Switzerland is a good example. Secondly, America's defense is way more expensive than it needs to be due to a lot of high level corruption and lobbying from the military industrial complex profiteering when it comes to purchasing decisions, where a 10$ bag of bolts is bought by the military for 50K$, shovelings taxpayer money into the right private industry pockets. EU can achieve similar results with way less cost if it wanted to by minimizing this style of corruption but that's easier said than done. The only one rivaling America's military inefficiency is Germany who spends more than France, a nuclear power with aircraft carriers, but can't afford to issue underwear and dog tags to new conscripts. Thirdly, America's lack of social services is not due to its powerful military, but due to political choices and inefficiencies. It could easily have better welfare if it wanted to since it can afford it with the world's largest GDP, but it chooses not to, since the current status quo is enriching a lot of private enterprises and parasites, while the concept of even more welfare is usually not a popular topic with the US voters which see welfare recipients as lazy and an unnecessary money sink funded by higher taxes on the middle class which they don't want. So their issue is social and political, not economical.
- alecco 2y agoPrevious discussion (16 hours ago) Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab (tomshardware.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42699977 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42699977
- cyanydeez 2y agoThe good thing about apple prices is they could easily not change any of their prices and just swallow the loss in profit. But doubtful, it'll definitely be a premium made-inthe-usa labeling for government & school use. Just grift grift grift, then graft graft graft.
- boringg 2y agoThey could do that -- then equity would correct investors would be like wait what. Exec and employee comp would decrease. Pressure to deliver consistent returns is real assuming its a material cost difference.
- giancarlostoro 2y agoDoes this mean that you will see entirely made in the USA Macs?
- swarnie 2y agoDepends, Do you have 10 year olds who will work for 18c an hour? Or do you have consumers who will pay for the difference?
- declan_roberts 2y agoUnfortunately the USA doesn't have religious prisoners who can be coerced into a factory as slave labor.
- swarnie 2y agoYou might be on to something though! If you dont mind dropping the religious aspect i think you already have the rest via the Prison-Industries Act; as cheap as an Asian child but with the strength and intelligence of the US adult prison population. Hold on im going to write this down.
- Aissen 2y agoI wished we used the node names, like TSMC N4/N4P/N4X, because nanometers are meaningless.
- stingraycharles 2y agoAs such I’m going to assume it’s the least impressive variant of 4NM.
- arnaudsm 2y agoAre transistors per square mm a better metric ?
- robertlagrant 2y ago[flagged]
- huijzer 2y agoPer square banana please. This is the internet.
- sumtechguy 2y agoI thought libraries of congress were the correct way to measure?
- rvnx 2y ago1.31 x 10⁻⁸ football fields. (1 football field = 91.44 meters)
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago> (1 football field = 91.44 meters) By? Which football? The real football, or the football played mostly with hands?
- 2y ago
- looneysquash 2y agoNice. Maybe we should have re elected that guy.
- randomNumber7 2y agoMaybe you should have developed a technology to upload his brain.
- icf80 2y agothey are making wafers, those have to be sent to china to make the finals chips... in the case of a war this is not great
- declan_roberts 2y agoA step in the right direction but we still have an ocean to cross for our domestic semi industry.
- whimsicalism 2y agoto taiwan
- victorbjorklund 2y agoTaiwan ≠ China
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y agoUntil 2027 - when the packaging facilities are complete in Peoria. Rome wasn't built in a day.
- losvedir 2y agoIt's interesting to me that this is in Phoenix. Does that mean good things for the city? I thought they were in a desert and running out of water, and not well positioned for climate change. On the other hand, maybe with more solar panels, electricity and manufacturing will be cheaper there in the future?
- imzadi 2y agoI live here and we are definitely looking toward impending water shortages, and no one care at all. Nestle is in the process of building a 200 acre coffee creamer factory. The major flower delivery services grow their flowers here. We have tons of cotton and alfalfa fields. There are 100s of golf courses and in the wealthier areas everyone has a lush green lawn.
- 0_____0 2y agoSounds like a resource that isn't appropriately priced
- amelius 2y agopriced -> rationed
- mrsilencedogood 2y agoin capitalism, prices are literally how rationing happens. the theory is that it distributes the resources to those who can make them most productive. here, theoretically the water will be used more productively by chipmakers than by farmers, so the chipmakers will be able to out-bid the farmers and the water will be allocated to them. this is the "invisible hand" of the free market.
- loeg 2y agoAlso worth pointing out that residential water uses like bathing/washing water and especially drinking water will easily outbid alfalfa farmers.
- insane_dreamer 2y agoDon't chip fabs require a great deal of water? Wondering why a place like Arizona, with serious water issues, was selected.
- vondur 2y agoAccording to TSMC: "To achieve our goal of 90% water reclamation, We will build an advanced water treatment facility (Industrial Water Reclamation Plant) at our Phoenix operation with a design goal of achieving “Near Zero Liquid Discharge”. This means the fabs will be capable of using nearly every drop of water back into the facility."
- tw04 2y agoWhile they reclaim 90% of the water, given the immense amount of water they use, it's still an exorbitant amount. With all 6 fabs online, and water reclamation in place, it's expected to be the equivalent of 160,000 homes: https://www.phonearena.com/news/tsmc-access-to-water-us-fabs_id146705 https://www.phonearena.com/news/tsmc-access-to-water-us-fabs... Now you can and absolutely should (IMO) make the argument that the fabs are far more important than the agricultural use in the area which is far more wasteful. But someone has to step up and do that and none of the politicians in the area seem to have been willing to make a commonsense decision and say: we're done growing crops in the desert when we've got endless better options.
- insane_dreamer 2y agoWhy not a place like Washington State or Oregon with abundant water and hydropower
- Clamchop 2y agoSeismic activity appears to be at least one problem. The entire West coast of the contiguous US has lots of it.
- adrr 2y ago
- kragen 2y agoI thought this would never happen. I was wrong.
- spprashant 2y agoCan someone explain to me how they can keep the price of the chip production the same in the US compared to Taiwan? Labour, especially specialized labour, is a lot more expensive in the US.
- ajb257 2y agoIt didn’t say that it was the same price? Customers want them produced in the US, so will probs pay extra for it. Especially given that politically it’s a good look for them Also, the US govt has put in a lot of subsidies
- zzzeek 2y agothis likely helps: > Congress created a $52.7 billion semiconductor manufacturing and research subsidy program in 2022. Commerce convinced all five leading edge semiconductor firms to locate fabs in the United States as part of the program. > The TSMC award from Commerce also includes up to $5 billion in low-cost government loans. This is a big deal for the US Gov because chip manufacturing is ground zero for "staying competitive" against global competition, e.g. China, who is eating the US' lunch in most areas
- dangus 2y agoAt this point it's not really a lot more expensive especially when factories are so heavily automated. The US has had semiconductor fabs for many years that are still operating. It just so happens that TSMC has the best process, but I don't think that has anything to do with labor costs.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- webprofusion 2y agoCool but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_nm_process
- ziofill 2y agoFew can imagine the complexity of spooling up a world-class fab. Marvel of engineering.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]