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Why Canada Should Join the EU
- sakex 2y agoI have a hard time imagining who would suffer from this more, but I have an even harder time imagining anyone would benefit from this.
- ihsw 2y ago[dead]
- gpi 2y agohttp://archive.today/7ZsY3 http://archive.today/7ZsY3
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- blueredmodern 2y ago[dead]
- gchokov 2y agoWild times
- tsimionescu 2y ago> Canada’s inclusive treatment of its indigenous peoples, at least in recent decades, could be emulated by Europeans (though First Nations Canadians might fairly object to closer ties with ex-colonists) I really wonder what the author meant with this line. There's very few populations in Europe that bear any similarity whatsoever with the relationship between First Nations people and most Canadians, since most populations in Europe have created their own states. And the few tribal populations in Northern Europe generally were and certainly are today treated at least as fairly as anything in Canada. So who are they talking about? Would the Basques feel that they would be treated better as First Nations people in Canada than they are today in Spain? Note that the treatment of immigrants is a completely separate topic in the article, so I don't think they could be referring to, say, the treatment of Syrian refugees with that sentence above.
- toenail 2y agoEuropean nations still have plenty of overseas colonies.. err.. territories. As somebody from an ethnic minority that was eradicated through educational and cultural policies that sounds like a good idea even without the former.
- tsimionescu 2y agoThis is the best point that I hadn't considered by far. I was only thinking of the actual territory of Europe, but you're absolutely right that things look very different in overseas colonies.
- Pet_Ant 2y agoWestern European countries do. The list of European countries that never had colonies is much longer than the ones that did. You take away 4 England, France, Spain, Italy, and Belgium and you have almost no colonies and there are roughly 50 countries in Europe.
- jbrennan 2y agoIreland springs to mind, and in fact has strong ties to Indigenous nations in the Americas for their similar struggles
- esperent 2y agoThat doesn't make any sense to me (as an Irish person). A hundred years ago, sure. But modern Ireland is one of the richest and most privileged places on earth. The problems we have in modern Ireland - wealth inequality, housing crisis etc. - are decidedly problems of our own causing, and do not in any way equate to or reflect the struggle for rights and recognition of indigenous peoples around the world. We do have our own indigenous minority who are treated badly by society - Irish travellers. There's a lot of racism in Irish society towards them, and we could do with looking at how other countries treat minorities, indigenous or not, and recognize for all that we like to harp on about our own poor treatment in history, we are doing exactly the same here towards travellers.
- nobodywillobsrv 2y agoThe biggest problem with the EU is that it is built for bureaucrats and as such it is geared towards irreversible "blob" decisions. Brexit should have been a near no-op. But it was a huge pain. They hadn't even planned for it or thought about it. EU should have a pre-memeber clearing state that countries stay in and then vote every year or n years to be "in" or "out" of the EU. But part of being in the EU should be to maintain non-in versions of all policies so that members can actually negotiate and easily leave without having huge bureaucratic cost. This would make the EU stronger and better. Currently, there are many terrible undemocratic institutions that are being used to ruin countries.
- skissane 2y ago> Brexit should have been a near no-op. But it was a huge pain. How was it ever going to be a "near no-op"? Putting everything else aside, Northern Ireland was always going to be huge sticking points. Ireland would make sure it was. Besides, it was in the EU's self-interest to maximise the pain for the UK, in order to discourage other member states from going the same way - and the EU succeeded. Marine Le Pen no longer talks about "Frexit", instead she proposes reforming the EU from within.
- wkat4242 2y agoThe UK were just being difficult and asking for things they knew they couldn't have. Like to join the single market for services but not for products. That breaks one of the most fundamental values of the EU. This is what made Brexit negotiations so difficult. And of course there was the northern Ireland issue with which they didn't even know what to do themselves. Also, them constantly replacing their negotiatiors didn't help. But at least they're out now.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y agoAh yes ... in addition to all the existing bureacratic costs of the EU, we should add "constantly maintain a parallel set of rules so that member states can leave easily and cheaply whenever they want". Why on earth would the EU do that? Why would any organization put in huge effort to ensure that its members could easily and cheaply leave at any time?
- BJones12 2y ago> Europeans could learn from Canada how to allow immigration in a fashion that the population embraces rather than tolerates Clearly the author is ignorant. Canadians are sick of immigration. Young Canadians doubly so. Racism is becoming more acceptable by the day.
- _blk 2y ago[flagged]
- loloquwowndueo 2y agoWho’s Justine?
- titanomachy 2y agoJustin Trudeau, maybe the "e" was an accident. He's about to receive a no-confidence vote from the opposition parties in parliament, which will force an election.
- sn0wf1re 2y ago"Justine" is what some people who disapprove of him are calling him. It's a mocking conspiracy theory that JT's wife left him due to him being transexual.
- loloquwowndueo 2y agoWow nice to learn that names 12-year-olds use to refer to public figures have gone mainstream :)
- loloquwowndueo 2y agoOh I know, was just playing the “you can’t even get the name right?” card.
- JodieBenitez 2y ago
- BossingAround 2y agoIf Canada joined the EU, they would have a TON of immediate immigrants, ranging from manual labor (e.g. plumbers, builders, cleaners, factory workers, ...) up to knowledge workers (e.g. software engineers, doctors, nurses, ...). Not sure what that would do with Canadian economy. IMO it would be even more desirable target for emigration than the UK when it was in the EU. I know I would certainly consider it, being a software engineer.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoCanada's points-based system already makes it pretty easy for the latter category to come here. To the point where people in our profession have highly depressed compensation packages when compared to the US because our job market is very much flooded with inbound foreign talent. Domestic trained talent tends to leave for the US. Because under NAFTA it's trivial to do so. Manual labour, yeah, that's another story. NAFTA doesn't grant free movement of unskilled labour at all.
- criddell 2y agoAre tech companies rapidly expanding in Canada to take advantage of all that cheap labor?
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoFor a time there was a little bit of that. Some of the FAANGs in particular were growing their offices here significantly, and paid above the median for it. Now there's a surplus of talent in the US, so no need.
- amatecha 2y agoEvery major US tech company has Canada-based hubs for sure. So much cheaper.
- TMWNN 2y agoMy understanding is that Canadian FAANG offices are staffed mostly with those who cannot (and often will never get) a US visa, plus the odd local who doesn't want to move to the US for personal or family reasons.
- mentalgear 2y agoI'd recommend Canada to join the EU, before the new US government comes in and snaps it up (along with Greenland, etc.).
- martinbaun 2y agowow, this year will be interesting
- skissane 2y agohttps://archive.md/jvRlo https://archive.md/jvRlo
- gjsman-1000 2y agoI think this says more about the state of Canada, and the state of the EU, than it does about a good economic union. It’s like two bankrupt companies trying to form a profitable one.
- llm_nerd 2y agoI'm sorry, but what a bizarre and ridiculous way to respond to this rhetorical, largely humorous thought piece. Especially given that it's a response to Trump's continued declarations that Canada should join the US. Is Trump's constant senile yapping about absorbing Canada or Greenland or Panama also proof of how broken the US is? As a Canadian, the #1 reason I wouldn't want to join the EU is that the Schengen Agreement almost seems purpose designed to force destructive mass migration, diluting cause and effect just so much that no one in particular can be accountable and put a stop to it.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago[flagged]
- llm_nerd 2y agoOverly verbose? Reddit comment? Are you here simply to troll with low value comments?
- gjsman-1000 2y agoNothing lower value than criticizing a satirical post about a piece of satire. How dare I offend the “humorous thoughtpiece” with my own humorous thoughtpiece.
- atmosx 2y agoDoes Canada have a migration issue? It didn’t seem that way the last time I was in Vancouver. Meanwhile, in Europe, self-inflicted wounds from austerity, corruption, and years of ineffective policies continue to mount – and as usual, immigrants are the scapegoats. When the euro was introduced, the conversation was about harmonizing taxes, social welfare, pensions, and wages. Now, the EU celebrates forcing iPhones to adopt USB-C, as if that matters – and they pat themselves on the back for it. Big corporations avoiding taxes in Ireland? Silence. German companies suppressing wages by threatening to relocate to Poland? Why not raise wages in Poland and create a fairer landscape? These days, the EU feels more like an extension of NATO than a representative body. Its survival so far seems like a miracle, but I wouldn’t place bets on its future. The normalization of parties like AfD, pushing to exit the EU, adds to the uncertainty.
- ziofill 2y agoCanada needs houses, not people.
- Hammershaft 2y agoWe need both, without a healthier population density Canada will forever be a bunch of exploitative oligopolies in a trenchcoat hopelessly dependent on a benevolent USA.
- bombcar 2y agoIf Canada doesn’t manage its population well it _will_ end up the 51st state in practicality if not reality.
- mmooss 2y agoThe number of houses isn't fixed, nor are almost any other resource. The way economics works, each average person produces significantly more than they consume. Someone living alone in a cabin is (economically) poor. Someone in a small town may have customers, but not many, and it's going to be hard to expand. What you need is more people - more people buying, more people to work for you.
- slothtrop 2y agoHousing supply is inelastic, in part because of zoning (but it's not the only reason). Know what doesn't change very quickly? Policy and law at the municipal level. Know what changes quickly because it's done at the very top level? Immigration rate.
- bombcar 2y agoThe speed is the problem. Nobody is willing to go “long” on housing when the government can go “short” on supply at any time. So you have to normalize that somehow, and since the government controls immigration levels, it should subsidize housing construction to match, somehow.
- youngNed 2y agoTired: Canada should join the eu Wired: greenland should pacman defence[1] the USA [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pac-Man_defense https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pac-Man_defense
- jimbob45 2y agoExpired: Northern California should become its own state I miss the wired/tired/expired lists greatly. Wired from 2000-2010 was a high-quality publication.
- selimthegrim 2y agoExpired: Noriega
- SllX 2y agoThis little thread was a nice bit of nostalgia.
- buzzert 2y agoWIRED still does this in each issue!
- potato3732842 2y agoA bunch of states ought to get split into multiple because it would result in a better mapping of state governments to economic and cultural lines and result in better representation for all parties on the state level. Of course it will never happen for a multitude of reasons
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lesuorac 2y agoIMO, remove the cap on the house of representatives and go back to the original method in the constitution (1/30k). And then if you and ~30k other citizens all agree to sign for a specific representative then they're in the house but you can't vote for a different guy in the normal election.
- gadtfly 2y agoBreaking innovative new ground on how to make things even worse.
- hello1234567 2y agospot on.
- bobxmax 2y agoYou know how you make one failing economy better? Combine it with another failing economy!
- kibwen 2y agoCan't read because of the paywall, so I'm curious how it handwaves away the EU's own membership criteria which requires applicants to be "European countries".
- ceejayoz 2y agoTheir head of state lives in Europe. Even used to be in the EU.
- ssnistfajen 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria#Geographic_criteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria#Geographic... Cyprus is geographically located in Asia but has been successfully been admitted to the EU after satisfying other (non-geographical) conditions for EU membership. Armenia and Georgia have also been determined by the EU to be eligible for membership despite being entirely located in Asia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#Prospect_of_EU_membership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia%E2%80%93European_Union... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Georgia_to_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Georgia_to_the_Eu...
- atmosx 2y agoThey can change the criteria or ignore it. Wouldn't be the first time.
- haunter 2y agoNot outlandish, Morocco applied in 1987 but it was rejected https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco%E2%80%93European_Union_relations#Membership_application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco%E2%80%93European_Union...
- mardifoufs 2y agoThe difference is that Morocco has a lot to win by joining europe, whereas Canada doesn't.
- skissane 2y agoCanadian GDP per capita is 15 times that of Morocco. The EU would much rather admit a wealthy country than a relatively poor one. So there are clear economic reasons to treat the two differently. Canada is a longstanding liberal democracy with a distant and purely symbolic constitutional monarchy. Morocco is a constitutional monarchy in which (until recently at least) the monarch played an active political role, there is still a widespread expectation among the population that he ought to do so, multiparty democracy is young and weak, and security agencies engage in repressive behaviour. [0] So there's political reasons too. If Canada really wanted the EU and the EU really wanted Canada, they'd fudge the whole geography issue–probably won't happen but not completely impossible. But no way the EU is going to want Morocco any time this century, so they won't do it for them. [0] https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/2023/07/morocco-a-brewing-crisis-of-governance?lang=en https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/2023/07/morocco-a-brewing...
- mardifoufs 2y agoYes, but why would Canada want the EU? it's just a complete fantasy from the economist, I don't see why a country that's already wealthy would want to join the EU, especially when it's a country that basically is completely dependent to the US. It makes as much sense as Norway wanting to join NAFTA when most of its trade is in Europe.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
- cs02rm0 2y agoWacky idea. The EU is an awful lot of legislation to sign up to, not the most popular it's even been either. If it's just about trading space and resources for people I'd imagine a more bespoke arrangement would be preferable for both sides.
- iknowstuff 2y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_single_market https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_single_market The four freedoms of the single market you get in return are incredible.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y agoOnly the free movement of labor is really unusual. As in ... really, really, really unusual. Lots of trade deals include variations of the first 3 ... free movement of labor is basically unheard of between nation states as part of trade deals.
- skissane 2y agoAustralia and New Zealand have both free trade and free movement of people between them. They aren't formally linked – free trade is a treaty, free movement of people is just an "arrangement" (not a legally binding agreement under international law, rather a political agreement implemented in each country's immigration law) – but it is all part of the overall multifaceted bilateral relationship.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y agoWell, that gets the heart of what's do revolutionary about the EU's basic premises. "You want to move capital and profits and materials without limit? Sure, no problem, but only if labor has the same freedom."
- skissane 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- fabiofzero 2y ago[flagged]
- gjsman-1000 2y agoBigger problem is that Russia and China would hate it.
- ceejayoz 2y agoProblem?
- atmosx 2y agoI don't believe either of these statements is accurate. Russia agreed to Ukraine joining the EU but not NATO, why would it be any different for Canada? The EU is China's largest trading partner, accounting for around 20% of China's exports. Adding Vancouver’s port to the EU market could significantly enhance trade between the EU and China. However, the real issue lies at the geopolitical level – the EU is heavily influenced by the US, and with Trump aiming to initiate a trade war with China, tensions are likely to escalate.
- hkpack 2y ago> Russia agreed to Ukraine joining the EU Russia didn't agreed to that, it sabotaged any effort and any agreement between EU and Ukraine to the maximum of its abilities. Ukraine paid a huge price to be able to have an association agreement with EU.
- atmosx 2y agoRussian diplomacy tends to be straightforward – they make their positions clear and repeat them often to ensure their message gets across. Putin has explicitly stated he’s not opposed to Ukraine joining the EU. He has no trouble stating his views, no matter how controversial, publicly. However, he has repeatedly made it clear that Ukraine joining NATO is unacceptable to Russia. In the past discussions about Ukraine’s accession to NATO were blocked by Germany and France.
- fidotron 2y agoCanada has less free trade between provinces than the EU does between countries. The two are not compatible.
- dblohm7 2y agoThis is true, but I'd love to see something happen to force Canadian provinces's hands to improve this. To dream the impossible dream...
- fidotron 2y agoIndeed. I don’t think I have met a single person that thinks the Canadian constitution as is is the right thing, but also have never met any two people that agree on what it should be instead. If anything the recent Trumpian outbursts have demonstrated just how strong the inertia is on this. For it to change will take a genuine existential crisis.
- rayiner 2y agoWhy? Until its recent immigration debacle, Canada was one of the most efficiently governed countries in the world. 15-20 years ago, Canada had lower non-defense government spending per capita than the U.S., despite having a universal healthcare system. Canadian federalism has been incredibly effective, with the majority of all spending happening at the provincial level and meaningful differences between provincial policy reflective of local concerns.
- jingonameo 2y ago[citation needed]
- dblohm7 2y agoAn editorial from Dec 19 (gift link): https://www.theglobeandmail.com/gift/eca53705d5e7568f5ed88c784a024289902cbf210bfcf084b29185c600b0a773/4UQIQFT5VRFPLCKIGY4ZNFAXKA/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/gift/eca53705d5e7568f5ed88c7...
- 2y ago
- loceng 2y agoI think people are quite tired of the harms of a centralized globalization effort - whether from a decentralized cabal or official part of law and official government agreements.
- isodev 2y agoOn the contrary, I think we’re finally realising the benefits of centralisation. Separatism and isolation are things of the past.
- loceng 2y agoWhat evidence do you have for your stance? For my evidence I'll reference this top upvoted comment that references actual truths, realities on the ground: "Does the economist know what time it is? Nationalism is resurgent: nationalist parties now control the U.S. and Italy. Canada seems poised to Poilievre, who has made impassioned appeals to Canadian nationalism. And in Germany, France, and the U.K., nationalist parties have effectively rendered the governing coalitions impotent, even if they cannot yet command a majority. What a time to suggest that Canadians cede their sovereignty to bureaucrats in far-away Brussels!" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42591290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42591290
- SolonIslandus 2y agoCanada should join the European Free Trade Association instead of the EU! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Associatio...
- llm_nerd 2y agoFWIW Canada does have a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU: CETA.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoI am continually amazed at how many of my fellow Canadians are unaware of CETA. I buy ski equipment from European online retailers for cheaper than from the US because no tariffs on it. It arrives here faster, and with better customer service, too.
- wenc 2y agoI remember when CETA was ratified, and there was talk about labor mobility which got me excited. Having more options on which countries to work is always better than fewer, but I ended up in the U.S. and turns out that worked out much better for me. Others may have different views. I was once young and had romantic notions of living in Europe, but I realized that I cultivated those notions as a student, tourist and urbanist. The realities of living in Europe are more complicated. I can still deal with the downsides (would still love to live in London), but as I've moved around and lived in more places, I realized it's not incontrovertibly true that the European lifestyle is better than in North America. Just depends what you're optimizing for. Europe is still a good destination for the well-heeled (and with a job lined up -- but that's true for almost any developed country), but if one isn't in that situation, Europe not the paradise many young people in Canada think it is. Sure you have walkable cities, universal healthcare, social safety net, train travel to tons of interesting destinations. But you also have to deal with a lot more bureaucracy, inefficiencies, and ultimately being a foreigner in a land that is not an immigrant nation like Canada is. The cuisines in European cities are nowhere near as diverse as the cuisines available in Toronto. You can't take risks and do new things as easily. The downside of the good life is comfort -- and a lack of dynamism. p.s. looking back on CETA after 7 years (it's still not fully in effect), it looks like the effects were largely negligible to Canadians except in niche areas because of other effects that canceled out the advantages.
- glitchc 2y agoHot take: Canada should join the US.
- drexlspivey 2y agoUS should join the EU
- adamc 2y agoI'd be all for free movement, but I doubt the EU would be enthused.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoDoes that come with a few trillions in reparations for lands confiscated from Loyalists who were forced to flee to Canada at the end of the American rebellion? Or for the Mohawk who fled here and helped us fight the Yanks off in 1812?
- TMWNN 2y agoSorry to shatter your illusions, but all Loyalist land claims were settled in post-Revolutionary War treaties between the US and UK.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoI have about as much "illusion" in the reality of this as I do in the "scenario" of the US taking control of my country. Both preposterous concepts. ... which was my point
- TMWNN 2y agohttps://i.imgur.com/lgcBQ3z.png https://i.imgur.com/lgcBQ3z.png
- RajT88 2y agoTrump suggested it, as well as Mexico. To give you some idea on the intellectual credulity with which the idea should be treated.
- ssnistfajen 2y agoGeopolitical thought experiments pop up from time to time but rarely come to fruition. There will be enough domestic opposition from both sides that this will never happen. The idea may become more compelling if Canada completely loses freedom of movement and free trade with the U.S., but that means the Canadian economy would have to crater first, which weakens the benefit EU would receive from accepting such a member country.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- aronikun 2y agoCanada should join the [commonwealth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations), then I can go work there :) Then in its best interest, it should immediately leave the commonwealth.
- oneeyedpigeon 2y agoUm... Canada IS in the commonwealth
- zizee 2y agoIt is in the Commonwealth?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jjtheblunt 2y agoIs the Economist often advising others X to do things contrary to the interest of X, but claiming the contrary ?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- inSenCite 2y agoCanada needs to do something but I don't think joining the EU is it.
- ethbr1 2y agoCanada-Mexico!
- icegreentea2 2y agoThis is hardly a serious analysis, and the author knows it. No European would seriously consider the reduction of population density that comes from admitting Canada to be a meaningful improvement to the EU. Canadian energy resources would definitely be welcome, but that's hardly enough of a reason to extend membership, especially since a trans-Atlantic power cable (which would be needed to get the most out of Canada's hydro) would be a beast of an engineering challenge itself. Tighter EU-Canada integration is a much more important and achievable goal, as the article points out in the final paragraph.
- positr0n 2y agoI agree it's a nonstarter for a huge variety of issues, but what's wrong with low population density?
- _7acn 2y agoAs someone who has lived in the EU for over 20 years, I can say that the Schengen Area is a fantastic thing, whereas the EU itself is a disaster. Civilized countries should join the Schengen Area but avoid joining the European Union (these are two separate things). They should take an example from Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein - countries that are part of Schengen but not in the EU. Joining the European Union means a complete loss of sovereignty.
- gmueckl 2y agoFactually, the claim of complete loss of sovereignty is just dead wrong. This list details the division of responsibilities between the EU and member states: https://commission.europa.eu/about/role/law/areas-eu-action_en https://commission.europa.eu/about/role/law/areas-eu-action_... This shows how narrow the responsibilities of the EU actually are.
- _7acn 2y agoInstead of reading the documentation, let's answer three questions: 1. Can your country introduce any law without asking the EU for approval? 2. Can the EU mandate your country to implement a specific law? 3. Do you still believe your country is sovereign?
- ethbr1 2y agoYou've also just described trade agreements.
- gmueckl 2y ago1. Yes, outside the areas where EU has sole responsibility. 2. Yes, within the areas where the EU has exclusive responsibility and to some extent when it shares responsibility with member states. 3. Yes. Any country is free to leave the EU at any time. See Britain.
- _7acn 2y agoIn that case, I suggest taking a closer look at the definition of "sovereignty". When it comes to lawmaking, if you say that your country can basically do "almost everything" without the EU's permission, "BUT with certain exceptions" it simply means that it is not sovereign. This is not a matter of opinion but of facts. It's binary — either it is sovereign, or it is not.
- mcny 2y agoI've argued in the past that Australia should join the European Union and gotten laughed at in my face. :/
- zoenolan 2y agoWell, they do take part in Eurovision
- mugivarra69 2y ago[flagged]
- postepowanieadm 2y agoIt's a very nice idea, but to join the EU, you have to be in Europe. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/167/the-enlargement-of-the-union https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/167/the-e...
- belter 2y agoAnd the Prime Directive does not allow law changes without approval by the Imperium, so that settles it....,
- layer8 2y agoIf Greenland can join the US, surely Canada could join Europe.
- TMWNN 2y agoGreenland is part of North America. (So is half of Iceland.)
- ssnistfajen 2y agoWrong. Cyprus is in Asia and has been successfully admitted to the EU.
- aborsy 2y agoCanada will do much better joining US (and distancing itself from declining EU and its disastrous policies). The US is much better managed; the results speak for themselves.
- wesselbindt 2y agoI truly cannot tell whether you're joking. If you're not, I'd love to pick your brain. I'm very interested in what standards you have and why you have them.
- ripbozo 2y agoThe user also calls unions a cancer on society, that tells you everything you need to know.
- aborsy 2y ago[flagged]
- messe 2y agoNot an uncommon opinion on this site, sadly. There are some viewpoints on here that seem utterly alien to me.
- cmrdporcupine 2y agoThere has been a shift in outlook among many in our profession, and this place has definitely come to reflect that. Huge difference between Trump Round 1, 2016 and now, in terms of how this stuff is discussed.
- echoangle 2y agoPoe's law in action.
- kspacewalk2 2y agoLong term, maybe. Short and medium term, let's see if you guys tear yourselves apart in a civil war or some other footgun. Nothing other than internal shenanigans can possibly threaten overwhelming US hegemony, after all.
- zvorygin 2y ago> Europeans could learn from Canada how to allow immigration in a fashion that the population embraces rather than tolerates, though a housing crunch has frayed that consensus of late A little bit of an understatement, that consensus has almost been completely shattered in Canada. Currently Canada can barely handle the people it has, there's quite a severe housing crisis. There's just not enough housing in any of the areas that people want to live. Canada does not need more people. And most of the people hypothetically moving to Canada from Europe will probably be refugees who have little ties to Europe. Which would also not go down well in Canada (because of uhh, human tendencies against the outgroup). Personally, I'm pro-immigration. It keeps the cost of labour down which is good for people like me. I just think even the current level of immigration has been too destabilizing for our society, so I'm opposed to increasing it yet further. That being said, as a Canadian I'd love to have the right to live and work in the EU, and I would love for honest hard-working Europeans to have the right to live and work in Canada. And I'd love closer and denser trade ties, for example an investment in LNG shipping infrastructure to help Canada and the EU, assuming this is economical and not just a pipe dream.
- ConspiracyFact 2y ago>Personally, I'm pro-immigration. It keeps the cost of labour down which is good for people like me. Jesus. Really?
- darth_avocado 2y agoCanada needs people? I thought the recent controversy is all about Canada having too many people and the pro immigration government also taking a more tempered immigration stance?
- paxys 2y agoCanada has a population of 40 million in a land area larger than the USA. That's hardly "too many people". Too many people in a handful of dense urban centers maybe, but overall the country is basically empty.
- tills13 2y agoThe argument is that we are taking on too many people and neither jobs nor housing completions are keeping up. There is an element of truth in that however our birthrate is not sustainable, either, so we're caught between those two eventualities.
- sumedh 2y ago> but overall the country is basically empty. Can people live in the empty parts of Canada?
- bombcar 2y agoThe empty parts start just outside the cities, so obviously yes. The thing is there is no REASON to; a city can’t really be self-fulfilling until after it has grown for some other reason (oil, or crops, or shipping, etc). I suppose Canada could chose to move the capital to some small town in Nunavut and cause a population boom there.
- betaby 2y ago> in a land area larger than the USA That's called permafrost.
- calf 2y agoOur land sucks. I live in Vancouver and can't grow decent: tomatoes, raspberries.
- zizee 2y agoWhat are the benefits that cannot be obtained by signing trade agreements? Canada is already part of NATO for defence, so joining the EU does nothing for defence. Does Canada want freedom of movement of EU citizens into Canada? They already have a housing crisis. Greece's experience shows a single currency isn't really beneficial to all members of the EU, so Canada would be crazy to give that up.
- BlueTemplar 2y agoNATO is probably even less solid than the EU : France historically not being all in, the very reason for the pact being under question between the fall of the USSR and Putin deciding to shot himself in the foot, and who knows what Trump will do... (last time he already siphoned NATO funding, including for the Ukraine ramp-up, to build his (strategically) stupid wall).
- wkat4242 2y agoWould many EU citizens want to move to Canada? When I hear people around me it's not very popular. Cold, far from family, too stretched out etc. I wouldn't think about it even if I could make more money there.
- zizee 2y agoEnglish speaking countries are always popular to move to.
- flessner 2y agoEU needs to clear out its own backyard first, kick Hungary out... Orban has brought nothing but chaos and costs. After that, why not? Turkey has been in discussion for ages and is barely in Europe. Also, South Africa might be interesting in the future if they can see eye to eye on political and economic issues.
- zizee 2y ago> South Africa ... if they can see eye to eye on political and economic issues. That's a pretty big "if". Right now South Africa is a basket case, with corruption at the highest levels of government, and one in five citizens living in extreme poverty. The crime rate is extreme, with high levels of murder and rape. So yes I agree, South Africa would be very "interesting" if it joined the EU.
- alkyon 2y agoSouth Africa has currently so warm relations with Russia that Hungary is the only EU country that would not block its accession in this surreal scenario.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago[flagged]
- layer8 2y agoHistorically they were also practically neighbors (Laurasia, around 200 Mya).
- adamc 2y agoI think we could safely classify that as pre-historic rather than historically.
- abesan 2y agoborders matter less and less. tech, travel and trade have essentially made globalization inevitable at this point. (or at the very least between western democracies) free movement of capital and people between eu and canada would probably be the next major step in this direction
- CLiED 2y agoIt's a joke guys.
- dzogchen 2y agoWith Trump already threatening Canada without this ridiculous plan, no thanks. > The Monroe Doctrine is a United States foreign policy position that opposes European colonialism in the Western Hemisphere. It holds that any intervention in the political affairs of the Americas by foreign powers is a potentially hostile act against the United States. The doctrine was central to American grand strategy in the 20th century. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine
- philwelch 2y agoExactly what I was going to say. It was only in the 1980’s that Canada fully freed itself of British domination; there’s no justification for Europe to regain any political control over any independent country in the Western Hemisphere.
- em3rgent0rdr 2y agoThe US should also join the EU.
- renewedrebecca 2y agoto wreck it?
- motohagiography 2y ago[flagged]
- mistrial9 2y agofunny to see such a wise person reduced to this nationalistic polemic
- nick__m 2y agoLooking at the "Temporary foreign workers - work permit holders" graph in that report https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/annual-report-parliament-immigration-2024.html#tr https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co... makes me think that you are the polemist
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- sakjur 2y agoThe Economist is a British magazine. I don’t think any eurocrat have made even a glib about bringing Canada into the EU.
- pseudolus 2y agoAnother potential union that gets the occasional mention is CANZUK - a union of Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the UK. [0] Practically, and legally, they all share the same head of state and similar cultures (although culturally Quebec is the outlier) so perhaps it would be an easier fit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK
- gpm 2y agoPersonally I'm a lot more interested in us (Canadians) joining an existing successful union than us trying to start up a competitor. The two actions don't seem particularly similar in potential costs/benefits/drawbacks/...
- gorbypark 2y agoI’ve been a proponent of CANZUK for 20 odd years now. My support comes from the cultural side of things. I spent 15 years working and living at ski resorts in Canada, Australia and New Zealand (and worked with a lot of young adults from the UK and Ireland). You can basically swap out anyone from the CANZUK+IE countries and get someone similar in language/culture/work ethic/etc and only have a slightly different accent. I also know dozens of international couples who met and fell in love with someone from one of the other countries and have seen countless relationships forced to part ways because of stupid visa issues. I’d like to see the free movement of people come first, a military agreement second (a la NATO) and then whatever free trade agreements that make sense.
- TheSpiceIsLife 2y agoIn practice, our head of state here in Australia is the governor-general.[1] That role is largely ceremonial too. Anyway, I tend to agree with the sentiment that, in ascending order of silly accents, Canadians, English, Irish, Australian, and Kiwis, share a common culture and work ethic. I dunno how anyone can take New Zealanders seriously, if you’ve ever heard one speak you’d surely agree.[2] I’m gonna blame the Dutch, the silly bastards. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_of_Australia 2. https://youtu.be/V4E1cfOE7P4?si=54xm1gttEG-AGLJ1 https://youtu.be/V4E1cfOE7P4?si=54xm1gttEG-AGLJ1
- 23B1 2y agoThe Economist is a great magazine for understanding how a certain type of person views the world, and for a survey of goings-on you might not get elsewhere. It is not great if you are looking for useful policy.
- Neonlicht 2y agoCanada is more likely to be formally incorporated into the US- after the fall of the British empire there's nothing standing in Washington's way.
- bobxmax 2y agoWell aside from 30 million angry Canadians ready to burn down the white house again.
- bombcar 2y agoLet’s meet at the border, we’ll give you everyone who always threatens to move to Canada, and you can give us everyone threatening to move to the USA. Sort of an amnesty deal.
- bobxmax 2y agoThis is an excellent plan.
- mardifoufs 2y agoI literally can't think of a single canadian population/group that would be willing to die for canada. Liberals don't care, conservatives (the group more likely to join the military) absolutely don't care about the Canadian identity anymore, Quebecers sure wouldn't, immigrants (me included) wouldn't either... Like, this isn't 1812 where Upper and Lower Canada had an actual identity or link to the British throne, or were descended from loyalists. We are mostly just a country that is held together by economic interests and a lot of inertia.
- bobxmax 2y agoI don't agree with that at all. It can feel that way in big cities - but rural Canada have a very strong Canadian identity. Trump will have a hell of a time annexing Quebec.
- 2y ago
- MicolashKyoka 2y agono thanks, we don't need the next thierry to have an expanded fief to "regulate". if anything, canada should model itself closer to the states with more personal freedoms and less regulation. there is a lot of land and resources to develop, the politicians need to just stop trying to maintain the status quo and aggressively try to develop all the land we have. the idea that we can't is a loser's mentality.
- crispinb 2y agoYour malevolent childs-ego-inflated-to-national 'winners vs losers' notion will inevitably, if not expunged, make losers of us all. My 'us' is of course unimaginable to your minuscule 'me'.
- xvector 2y ago[flagged]
- crispinb 2y agoSomeone once said something to the effect: "I'm not concerned that computers will become more like people, I am that people will learn to 'think' like computers". A fortiori humans vs social media. You are faux-thinking in a series of tweets.
- xvector 2y agoAh, I forgot you are the only one in this thread capable of real human thought. My apologies for bothering you with my "faux-thinking."
- crispinb 2y agoYou're quite capable of seeing that a serious of ludicrously generalised ideological statements, entirely abstracted from reality, are as close to meaningless as human statements get (which is exactly why social media affords them). You are just blinkered by acculturation, and prefer it that why. Drama is so much more fun than reality.
- dismalaf 2y agoI'd be down, my family already gets all of our medical care in the EU anyway (wife is an EU citizen, as is our son). Not sure EU countries would want millions of our immigrants flooding them though, especially once they see wages in Germany...
- metalman 2y agoone of the carabean island countrys, tried to join Canada, they were already useing Canadian money. We (canada) said no, cause they would leave there island and move north for free health care, which is like ok, here wana trade houses? But the EU?, joining canada, yah right, bunch of snooty hosers, they are already trying to put in private airports for there private jets. And there are countless EU beurocrats who have moved over and are working in government here, they like small towns.... And as for imigrants from india/asia, plenty of friction there, with a large number of names from those places showing up in the court docs(availible online....), and then many of the best talents from over there, 1 not planing on settling and 2 traveling back home for medical treatment.....even those who are working in health care,here. Brampton, Ont, is already a punjabi city.,..... samosas 3 for a dollar....and litteraly no euro origin people in sight, at the bank and grocery store. A bit of whats going. Traffic jams in places where that was impossible?, yup!, every day ! Housing prices going up, up, and up ?, yup! Dustin toodough on the way out ?, yup! Cranky, wall eyed "old stock" canadians not dealing well with mass imigration ?, yup! walleyed?, cow eyed?, definitely startled!, but generaly not mean and nasty, go Canada! Euro origin beurocrats talking about new zealand? yup!, buh by! South aisians with some real grit, working in Iqaliuite ? yup! Jamaicans working in the north woods, doing forestry or fish plant work?, yup Which makes it possible that I could encounter both of my favorite accents conversing, Jamaican and Newfy. I supose that in.a way, Canada is doing a mass imigration "melting pot" thing like what the US did long ago, which did actualy turn out well for the US, so
- rayiner 2y agoDoes the economist know what time it is? Nationalism is resurgent: nationalist parties now control the U.S. and Italy. Canada seems poised to Poilievre, who has made impassioned appeals to Canadian nationalism. And in Germany, France, and the U.K., nationalist parties have effectively rendered the governing coalitions impotent, even if they cannot yet command a majority. What a time to suggest that Canadians cede their sovereignty to bureaucrats in far-away Brussels!
- kypro 2y agoThe left-wing party in the UK has only just won its largest majority in history and we don't have another election for 5 years. That is largely because the right has split into populist right and centre-right parties though.
- boringg 2y agoYes but that isn't at all reflective of Canada and things in the UK aren't looking that great.
- philipwhiuk 2y ago> things in the UK aren't looking that great Sure they are. No election for about 4 years. Left wing party with 100% of the actual power.
- OJFord 2y agoYes that's what GP is describing. Fractured Conservative party with splinters that can't command a majority.
- argsnd 2y agoThe combined right did not get remotely close to a majority. The combined left did.
- 2y ago
- jbverschoor 2y agoBecause they use the metric system
- aristofun 2y agoNo thanks. Canada is a young kid with a lot of good opportunities in the future. Europe is an old drowning rusty bureacratic ship. It should get their shit together themselves
- wkat4242 2y agoNah it's not. It's not all about money. We're doing pretty great in Europe. I wouldn't ever want to live in the US. We don't have cities full of skyscrapers but we have enough.
- aristofun 2y agoI wasn’t speaking about money. Neither about skyscrapers. Only after you lived for a while in many countries and cities can you realize how terrible Europe is in terms of everyday comfort and growth potential.
- joshdavham 2y agoI'm generally not a fan of integrating more and more countries into ever larger political unions. Countries are a bit like experiments or alternatives and that's a good thing! While I don't think that we'll see a one world government in my lifetime, I believe that Canada joining the EU would be a sort of approximation of that and would be bad for our Canadian experiment.
- honeybadger1 2y agoi needed the belly laugh, thanks...we have an office in canada. the last 4 years the canadians that work there are more anti-immigrant every time i visit.
- ww520 2y agoIt's a terrible idea to join the EU. You cede your control on economic policies to some central bureaucrats in Europe while holding the bags to pay for all the local societal infrastructure and welfare. You won't have enough political power to direct the flow of economic activities to your local region. Germany will suck up most of the economic benefits.
- tharkun__ 2y agoIt's funny how the people of Germany think of this in exactly the same way you describe, except for that last part. They replace that by "country X will suck up most of the economic benefit". Meanwhile the policies the EU makes are created by politicians from each of the EU member states. Some of them being originally proposed by politicians from the very countries whose citizens decry them the most. It's fun to draw parallels to "the federal government sucks for reason X" in the US. Truly poetic to watch.
- xamdam 2y agoBecause that's where countries go to die?
- btbuildem 2y agoPlease remove this post, it's rage bait and the discussion in here is absolutely the worst thing I have seen on HN in many years.
- deadbabe 2y agoI don’t see anything particularly bad?
- kccqzy 2y agoI really enjoyed the article as an interesting thought experiment. The discussion here isn't great but that's a problem solved by downvoting comments.
- lolinder 2y agoDownvoting doesn't solve much in cases like this—all the top-level comments are political to one degree or another (mostly very political), and they're pinned to the top at this point by upvotes from politically like-minded people. There are a bunch of downvoted comments from the less-popular political perspectives in the threads, but them being downvoted only decreases the quality of the conversation, because the greyed-out comments warn curious people off of participating in an increasingly hostile discussion.
- userbinator 2y agomostly very political The article itself is political, so why wouldn't the discussion be? The real question is whether HN wants political discussion, which at least in the past has been "no".
- lolinder 2y agoI guess the distinction I'm drawing is that the comments aren't interestingly political. The political topics that are left on the HN front page are usually there because the discussion is heavily moderated to keep things civil and interesting, and that doesn't seem to be happening here. The top comment by tsimionescu is fine. Not great, but par for the course. The replies are at least mostly civil, but they're also mostly drive-bys. The other top-ranked top-level comments range from uninspired to terrible. There's this one (which suggests that OP and I aren't the only ones feeling this way), then the usual "the right is ascendant" comment, then an insanely flamebaity comment (235 replies and counting) that begins with "clearly the author is ignorant" and somehow manages to go downhill from there. Then there's a tired/wired meme and two single-sentence calls pointing to alternative alliance/free-trade arrangements with no further explanation.
- PedroBatista 2y agoNot sure the editor of the Economist had a fever dream and thought he was employed by The Onion or the author is still drunk from New Year's eve.
- acyou 2y agoCanada works well as a buffer state between USA and Russia. Canada acts as the USA attack dog in foreign policy. Don't forget which countries won the war and still rule globally with nuclear powered aircraft carriers, strategic bombers, submarines, ICBMs and who prints the world reserve currency (hint: it isn't Europe or any of the countries therein). Canada is effectively already the 51st state and has been so for 200+ years. It cannot be understated how greatly Canadians have benefited from this association and arrangement. As far as immigration goes, it seems to be beneficial for the existing residents of a country to have controlled immigration at a certain rate. If the rate is too high, people complain, and if rates are too low, economies suffer. Building houses works the same way, build them too fast and everyone suffers, build them too slow and everyone suffers. We aim for the slow, steady and sustainable increase. As for this idea... barring a massive increase in spending by NATO members not including USA, Canada doesn't have the ability to become part of Europe. OTOH, they sure could/would get annexed by USA if that's the way the conversation is starting to go.
- 486sx33 2y agoThey should not.
- from-nibly 2y agoPlease don't. That would give the US a huge northern ocean border. That's so much harder to defend.
- amadeuspagel 2y agoFun idea, but the gap in values between America and Europe is immense and growing. Canada has jus soli, like all countries of the Americas, but unlike any European country. The EU is getting more radical about border enforcement and deportations. I'm not sure how land acknowledgements are supposed to work in europe.
- 752963e64 2y ago[dead]
- getwiththeprog 2y agoI think Australia should join the EU. We have lots of resources too.