19 ms·

Unbricking my MacBook took an email to Tim Cook

493 points by pwim 3y ago

alwayslikethis 3y ago
Mostly unrelated, but I think activation lock and similar schemes should have an expiry date, like 2-3 years. It will drastically reduce the amount of senseless e-waste that are perfectly working computers someone just didn't bother to log out of.
- c0pium 3y ago
  If it’s a corporate MacBook that’s not a concern.
  - WWLink 3y ago
    It should be. Corporations are probably the biggest producers of ewaste there is.
    - c0pium 3y ago
      It’s not a concern because corporate linked MacBooks can be easily unlocked by the corporation regardless of if the assigned user is available or logged in.
      - chongli 3y ago
        Sure, but lots of corporations will have all their old devices shredded rather than unlock and sell them.
        majewsky 3y ago
        Including Apple! They were found in 2017 to force their recyclers to shred old iPhones and Macbooks to ensure that the parts cannot be reused. https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon...
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    On one level it’s not because if you hand me a DEP/MDM MacBook, even T2/ Apple Silicon, it can be completely bypassed in under three minutes with no issues.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  Last year someone who owned a bar gave me a whole box of iPhones, lots of very new ones that had been left behind and never collected. Out of about two dozen phones only one was recoverable (iPhone 7), all the others were ewaste.
  - talldatethrow 3y ago
    Can't they be sold for parts on eBay?
    - qingcharles 3y ago
      As I understand it only some of the parts can be reused (the case?) as the parts now have ID in them that has to match the rest of the device. You can't replace the screen in an iPhone without a call to Apple to update the ID numbers.
      - talldatethrow 3y ago
        Jesus. Are even the batteries like that? Ive replaced the battery on my pixel 4xl with a $19 Amazon new from China copy.
        chongli 3y ago
        This is all part of the program to fight theft. If the parts were freely usable then people would be stealing devices and fencing them to chop shops.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  I worked at car dealerships before, and the number of iPads thrown away eventually because no one can log into them after a while is atleast 10+ that I've personally seen. Basically about 33% of them after a year.
- the_black_hand 3y ago
  ewaste is problem but bricking them is the only strong security deterent. Many criminals would be happy to steal a brand new iphone and resell it after 3 years.
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    I don't think you have thought this through. Organized crime gets phones from thieves that go around in (for instance) concerts and pick pocket and then sell the phones which then get sent to a location where they are reset/parted out and resold. Would they be willing to pay money to the thieves just to sit on a hoard of phones for 3 years and then sell them at suitably discounted prices? I'd wager that is doubtful. Non-organized crime is generally opportunistic. Would the opportunistic criminal know of this reset date, and if they did would they be willing to wait 3 years to fence the phone? I'd wager that is doubtful.
    - chongli 3y ago
      then sell the phones which then get sent to a location where they are reset/parted out and resold You can’t do that with an activation locked iPhone. The user can remotely brick the device using Find My. The parts can’t be removed and reused either because they all have IDs in them which are locked to the device. A stolen iPhone is nothing more than scrap metal and glass.
      - Eisenstein 3y ago
        Quick search for recent news popped this up: "The officers advised Chistancho that his bag violated the event rules and proceeded to remove it from his possession. Upon inspecting the bag, officers found a smaller black bag inside, which, when opened, revealed a metallic inner lining consistent with a Faraday bag – a device commonly used to block phone signals. To their surprise, the Faraday bag contained a total of 12 stolen iPhones of various models. One of the victims of the thefts was able to positively identify one of the recovered phones as stolen from him." * https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-dade/two-phone-thieves-nabbed-red-handed-at-rolling-loud-music-festival-in-miami/ https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-dade/two-phone-thieves-nab... If they can't use them for anything, what would they want with 12 iPhones? > The user can remotely brick the device using Find My. I guess that's what the faraday bag is for.
CSMastermind 3y ago
> When first activating a MacBook, Apple makes it easy to skip setting up FindMy. But given the severe consequences for not doing so, I think either need to revise the setup workflow to make this downside abundantly clear, or revisit their unlock policy altogether. Seems like a reasonable suggestion, hopefully someone at Apple sees it and adds in a warning about the consequences of skipping that step.
- c0pium 3y ago
  And then they will immediately get publicly roasted for scaring users into creating that account. There’s no stance they can take here which makes everyone happy.
- iJohnDoe 3y ago
  Is this because if you do not add the device to your FindMy account, then someone else can add it to their account and lock the device? If that’s the case, then that should be the warning. “If you skip this step, then someone could add this device to their FindMy account and lock you out of your device. Apple will not help you under any circumstance if this occurs. We recommend adding this device to your FindMy account to maintain access to this expensive thing you just bought.”
- Terretta 3y ago
  I'm firmware locked out of an OS-update bricked Macbook 2019. I wouldn't care if the OS booted, I don't need the firmware password to use it, only to wipe it. I don't really want to wipe it, I want it to boot. I bought it with cash in Grand Central. I have my welcome to your New Mac email from the week they launched and it's in Find My still today. But I didn't keep the cash receipt and I password protected the firmware before an International trip, and don't remember that. Apple will not unlock it, though it's in Find My, and has only been mine for its entire history. (They also won't unlock it, fix the bricked OS update, and lock it again, which would be fair enough. But as I see it, they broke my machine, and they prevent me from unbreaking it.) So FindMy won't save you from yourself. :-/
toomuchtodo 3y ago
It is delightful that OP was able to get Tim’s exec team to fix this for them. Broadly speaking, this indicates that there needs to be a mechanism to bind your IRL identity to your digital identity and your device(s). Instead of showing proof of purchase, you provide a government credential you bound to the account and or the device, and assuming trust in the identity proofing process, you receive access to your device or account because you are known to be who tied the device to your IRL identity. Emailing Tim doesn’t scale. (I have filed comments with the FTC on this account recovery matter regulatory gap; identity is a component of my work in infosec, primarily in financial services)
- qingcharles 3y ago
  What about those of us who are unable to obtain government ID?
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    You’re default fucked anyway current state based on this anecdote. Broadly speaking, government should make it as straightforward as possible to obtain a legitimate government credential from an equity perspective for a variety of lifetime identity needs (and about 1% of the US population has no government ID). Out of 200 countries, 170 have a national ID system. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-rights-national-id-card/619772/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-...
    - qingcharles 3y ago
      I'm the 1% in the USA, due to immigration issues.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        No gov creds from home country on hand from across the pond? Should be able to walk into an embassy or consulate and have them provided if you haven’t yet. Purposely being vague to attempt to answer your inquiry without divulging your personal info.
jiqiren 3y ago
[flagged]
- slantedview 3y ago
  You think Apple should allow other people to enroll in find my for your device?
  - vulcan01 3y ago
    How would they know it was a different person? Part of the point of enrolling your device in Find My is preventing others from doing so.
  - alistairSH 3y ago
    If the device was “factory reset”, it’s not really your device any more (as in, Apple no longer knows it’s your device). If “Find my…” is the system Apple uses to prevent devices from being used after theft, then they should just make it mandatory, or at least very difficult to opt out.
jtriangle 3y ago
I'm glad the machine was restored to usable condition, I've had a laptop stolen from me in the past, it was returned in an evidence bag, in about 1000 pieces, which was very frustrating to get an excited call a year after it'd happened telling me the police had recovered it, only to be greeted with, well, an unusable husk. That said, yours is a completely artificial problem imposed upon you by the company you made a purchase from. You don't have the private keys to your own device, which means ultimately, your usage of that device is conditional on being in the good graces of a group of very wealthy, indifferent, strangers. That, in, and of itself, is the issue at hand here, and while you've found yourself a favorable outcome, you're likely an exception to the rule.
- userbinator 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Zambyte 3y ago
  > You don't have the private keys to your own device This here is the misunderstanding. It's simply not possible for you to own Apple's computers.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Yeah laptops are going the same way as content "No you're not buying a book/movie, just a license to use it". It's a bit depressing.
- judge2020 3y ago
  What is the better solution that retains the anti-theft capabilities of the device? The value of stolen (activation-locked) iPhones and Macs is largely only on in overseas markets where they can strip the device down to usable parts - or, if you're lucky, you'll get threatening text messages telling you to remove the device from your icloud[0, 1] so they can sell it as a fully working phone. The inability for a thief to just flash the device with fresh firmware and use it as if it were new is a key selling point of the device and might justify the higher price tag to some buyers. 0: https://old.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/13yn1o0/phone_stolen_at_coachella_been_getting_tons_of/ https://old.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/13yn1o0/phone_st... 1: https://old.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/16fcd4c/recently_lost_phone_and_got_this_weird_message/ https://old.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/16fcd4c/recently...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
flashback2199 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- oneplane 3y ago
  > Buy a laptop whose hardware is actually open. Nice idea in theory, not really applicable in the real world. Not on the technical side because it doesn't exist (you have no access go the Intel Boot ROM on the CPU, and not to modern AGESA to start with something fundamental, but also no access to AMD or NV GPU specs, they are about as closed as they can get). On the market and people side, there just isn't enough of a market for it. The closest you might get is Framework where you get modules (but no open firmwares and things like information for all registers on all chips). Most people don't buy a 'collection of components' to then 'install firmware, a bootloader, an operating system and applications'. That market doesn't exist. Instead, they have some sort of preconceived notion about an appliance they want, and they really aren't interested in the technical details. It just needs to work, preferable as soon as you take it out of the box without having to do special things to it. People might be persuaded to care about ecological impact, or long-term cost, or maybe even ROI when buying a more expensive device vs. a cheaper device (if applicable). But technical details will never win, it never has. Not with laptops, not with phones, not with video cassettes.
  - flashback2199 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - oneplane 3y ago
      I am not saying you are the only person who used Boot Camp. And I am also not saying this can only apply to x86_64. And if you use your own definition of 'open', just buy some random Dell or Lenovo laptop and live a happy life. Apple's market and your market doesn't have to intersect. As for what market doesn't exist: the one with the more globally used definition of 'open'. There is an insignificant amount of users that would really like it (including me), and unless you count the OLPC, there is no market, because even if we assume a demand, there is no supply because it's not feasible. Even if you'd just take NDA'ed technology as an example.
qingcharles 3y ago
Whenever I have an issue with a product that support can't/won't resolve I go to one of those sites where you can buy contact info and purchase the CEO's email addresses and phone numbers then go at them. I just had to do it for the recent Google class action payout (got me my check overnighted). I did it with Cash App though and it backfired ("Your account has been terminated for contacting employees outside of the support system") Now, how much is Sundar Pichai's cellphone number going to cost me? I just want to get into my Google account that I have the username, password and recovery email for, but not the old phone number.
- arcastroe 3y ago
  If you're willing to share, I'd love to hear the Cash App story. Seems like a slap in the face for them to terminate your account for trying to resolve an issue with their service.
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    In very quick summary: I bought a product online using my Cash App debit card. Turns out with more research company was a total scam. After 6 weeks of not shipping anything I asked for refund. They shipped "something" to me, but FedEx failed to deliver the box (said I was out but never even came down my street) and the package was returned to the sender. Sender closed their corporation and opened under another name and continued scam. I asked Cash App to do a chargeback. They told me their system doesn't allow chargebacks where the goods were "delivered." I told them they were never delivered. They argued that they were delivered back to the sender, therefore they were "delivered." I got all their execs cellphones and started politely calling them. One escalated it to their "Executive Support" who gave me the same answer, then my account was terminated. They did issue me a refund as part of the termination, but I can no longer use Cash App which is very frustrating for someone at the bottom of the food chain like me who interacts regularly with people who only use Cash App as their banking. In the interest of resolving your dispute, we are providing, as a one-time courtesy, a reimbursement of $93.75 for your transaction with Wibargin, LLC. Additionally, we are electing to terminate your Cash App account (as allowed in our Terms of Service, section XIII.8). As a result of the termination of your Cash App account, you will no longer be able to use Cash App and its services going forward. You will be able to access your account in order to cash out your remaining funds, however all other features, including the Cash Card, will be permanently disabled.
neom 3y ago
I got a pair of Airpod max back from Apple (they'd evidently replaced them with a refurb pair.) Didn't use them for a couple of days till I heard them making a sound. I pulled them out and got a notice on my phone that the AirPod Max I had was associated with an iCloud account. I wasn't super stoked about getting a pair of trackable headphones given to me by Apple so I emailed Tim and explained the situation. Got a call back the next day from someone in the Apple exec service team asking for the details, I explained and mentioned I wanted 2 things resolved. Non-refurbished pair of headphones and an understanding if they could have indeed been tracked or not. The next day got an answer back on both of them: no, can't have a non-refurbished pair. And, yes, could have been tracked via the find my the headphones were attached to, sorry about that!
- Washuu 3y ago
  The fact that they are replacing them with a refurbished product is ridiculous in the first place.
  - angulardragon03 3y ago
    Refurbished Apple products are generally in almost indistinguishable condition from new, and are thus likely in better condition than a device you bring for repair months or years into using it. Using refurbished devices to replace used devices is a surefire way to "reduce, reuse, recycle" (especially considering that refurbishing also re-uses any returns Apple receives).
    - microtherion 3y ago
      These are all good arguments, but that does not absolve Apple from the responsibility of checking that their refurbished products are not registered to a different ID. That device never should have been accepted for a return, let alone shipped to a different customer.
      - angulardragon03 3y ago
        Absolutely agreed (which is why I did not say that it did) :)
crazydoggers 3y ago
I’m sorry, but I honestly feel like this is the OPs fault entirely. It’s clear they had disabled account security on the laptop, in order for the other user who swapped laptops to add their account to that laptop. It’s not even that they didn’t enable “Find My” (which it does during initial setup, all you need to do is add an iCloud account)… he disable the password required setting to open the Mac. (Yes you can disable the requirements for logging in, but it’s definitely not the default setting) If you jump through such hoops in the first place to weaken your computer’s security, your can’t claim it’s not your fault when someone encrypts your computer on you. I buy Mac’s specifically because for me this is a feature. I have backups. And if someone steals my laptop or I lose it, I’d much rather be out the money and the hardware and have it 100% bricked unusable and inaccessible, than have any possibility of my data getting accessed. (Not to mention making it worthless to the average petty thief). Creating a work around, no matter how many N levels of authentication means there’s a hole for social engineering, and I’m definitely not a fan of that. So it’s a trade off. If you don’t care about such level of security, then there are other laptop options, but please don’t ask Apple to start making their security weaker because there are those of us who want it this way. And if you’re traveling with your laptop, put a password on it at least, and better yet encrypt it.
- the_black_hand 3y ago
  Agree. OP messed up. How would anyone not bother to set a password or "find my" on a $1200 Macbook? That's just negligence and complaining to Apple about it is a bit silly. I haven't set up a Macbook in a while, but I bet you have to go out of your way to disable those security features.
  - crazydoggers 3y ago
    It’s a little like buying a Lamborghini, and then speeding and totaling it, and then complaining they need to make it not as fast so you can’t do that.
    - crazydoggers 3y ago
      To be a little less facetious though, at what point do we expect a company to dig us out of our own mistakes. Let’s say you didn’t know you had to take your new car in for an oil change? You ignore the warning lights and requests to service the vehicle. When the vehicle breaks down, I think it’s obvious that the car manufacturer can’t be responsible for fixing it for you. To me, this is the same. The computer is functioning exactly like it should, locking him out is a feature for the vast majority of users, requiring some very basic knowledge to prevent/fix (as mentioned in my other comment, it’s hard to have what happened to him happen without circumventing security on the mac)
the_black_hand 3y ago
why would anyone in their right mind not set up "find my" ?
- iJohnDoe 3y ago
  The location data could be subpoenaed later. Account could be compromised later and used to get location of person. Apple could get hacked tomorrow or 6 months from now and all location data leaked. Journalists. Human Rights Activists. Etc.
  - the_black_hand 3y ago
    The vast majority of people do not have to deal with these concerns. The odds of you losing your device are way higher than Apple getting hacked by orders of magnitude. If you are someone who falls into these professions then you probably should know what you're doing and disable it, or buy a different phone, or have some kind of backup security in place.
    - hnfong 3y ago
      > The vast majority of people You said "anyone". GP gave examples.
  - gruez 3y ago
    At least on macs you can enable find my with location services disabled, which mitigates your concern.
  - fh9302 3y ago
    Find My network uses E2EE so the location can't be subpoenaed.
    - grishka 3y ago
      It's the "guys please trust us we implemented our stuff the way we promised" kind of E2EE though.
- 3y ago
oneplane 3y ago
This has happened with various anti-theft systems for a really long time, most of those cases not having a happy ending (some sort of class-action payout of a few pennies at best). I wouldn't be surprised that there is no real 'have your cake and eat it too' version of this where you can make something secure (both integrity and confidentiality) while also not risking losing access or ownership yourself. At least not yet. It has the same issue trying to make a 'regulatory backdoor' in a crypto system, it just weakens the system and as a result just means such backdoors get abused by everyone making the crypto system worthless.
hliyan 3y ago
Every business should be able to service their customers in human-to-human interactions. "We're too big to have humans speak to our human customers" is becoming normalised and that's a trend we need to reverse. Growing revenue streams without investing in the support those revenue streams need, is a bad business practice.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  You can get a phone call from an Apple representative very quickly in my experience. https://support.apple.com/contact https://support.apple.com/contact
- edude03 3y ago
  It's a poor moral practice perhaps but arguably a good business practice to spend as little as possible on "cost centres"
  - tadfisher 3y ago
    Agreed. f Apple did this they'd quickly go from a $1 trillion dollar company to a $999 billion company.
  - balderdash 3y ago
    It’s short term thinking - if you want don’t want repeat business burn your customers. I got given a Patagonia bag (not my thing), the wheel broke off (thanks AA), took it to a store, and the customer service was so good I’m a convert. Conversely, I recently stopped using a service I spent >$20k a year on because their customer service was so bad. Can you boost profitability short term? Definitely, but I suspect in the long term you trading long term customer NPV for short term profits
- woutr_be 3y ago
  I recently had a human at my local banks' branch (after 30 minutes of waiting) tell me I should call their phone hotline to get my issue resolved. They couldn't (or refused) to do it in person.
bitwize 3y ago
Reminds me of the time my dad bought a TRS-80 and the screw holes were filled with Glyptal to prevent end-user repair or modification. He drilled through the Glyptal, then contacted the literal president of Tandy to complain. Tandy never sealed the screw holes to its computers again (though they did still do the "warranty void if this sticker is broken" trick on some of their equipment). I doubt Apple will fix their practices though. They may be in the right: as soon as that MacBook got stolen it should have been considered compromised and completely forfeit. Cryptographically tying your hardware to your digital identity, as Apple does, provides, among other things, a means to recover your hardware without having to consider it untrustworthy. Hell, Tandy may have been in the right. TRS-80 hardware was bodgy as all get-out and sometimes downright dangerous to open: the cathode on the CRT was dangerously close to the mainboard and likely to fry the computer, if not the user, if the user wasn't skilled enough to open the machine very carefully.
- musicale 3y ago
  > Tandy never sealed the screw holes to its computers again Good that they actually fixed it when he complained! They also apparently sold a terrific "technical reference manual" that explained the hardware design and operation in detail and also included a parts list and schematics: https://www.trs-80.com/wordpress/publications/manuals-service/ https://www.trs-80.com/wordpress/publications/manuals-servic... I believe Apple used to provide schematics for its early machines as well.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  It's never OK to prevent a purchaser from doing something with the item he purchased. If I buy something from a company, I should be able to take it apart, learn about it, fix it, resell it, or throw it in the trash, all without begging the manufacturer for permission. We should not normalize this practice of manufacturers having these "tethers" into the products they sell.
RagnarD 3y ago
That such an email led to a positive resolution for him should be a giant red flag to Apple. I doubt this is just a corner case, so it means that Apple's systems are badly flawed and need to be corrected.
- shinryuu 3y ago
  Any system is flawed in different ways. The fact that apple has a course corrective measure through cooks email is a positive.
  - eviks 3y ago
    Any system has some course corrective action, so then it's not a positive
nuker 3y ago
I believe my letter to Tim Cook worked too! MacOS Big Sur broke support for high refresh rate external displays for Intel Macs. It was the DSC feature of HDMI/DP protocols, 4 years ago. Everyone that had it working at 4k@144Hz in MacOS Catalina, got only 60Hz in Big Sur and later. Apple Support / Engineering department had me to install Catalina, show that 4k@144Hz actually works, got a ton of diagnostic data and came back with "you may downgrade to Catalina as a solution" LOL Wrote to Tim Cook, with case number and, wait for it, MacOS Sonoma had it fixed!
gojomo 3y ago
Seems another example of Apple pretending it can't (or never would) do something related to stolen equipment – that they can & actually do if you just reach the right person with the right request. My related story of someone likely circumventing my activation lock, using either fake docs or a compromised Apple-authorized agent, a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38622248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38622248
silcoon 3y ago
Why I don't buy MacBook for personal use anymore: - in 2019 spent more than €3K to buy the best macbook 15' available (> 2 months of average salary in my Europe country) - 2 weeks before the warranty (1y) the spacebar broke, the SPACEBAR!!!. It was a design issue and it got replaced in a few days by the local service under warranty. - 1 year later, the battery starts dying out. Go to the authorized repairer and it was going to cost me ~€750 to replace the battery since I had to replace the entire keyboard and trackpad to do that. - I found a PC repair shop that said he can do it for a couple hundred €, and it worked fine - 3 months later the laptop shut down unexpectedly. The apple refused to fix it (even paying) because I used a battery not official. The Mac is now a brick So 2.5y of personal use (not professional) cost me €3.5K. More expensive than a cheap car. edit: the battery replacement with all top case cost me ~€750. Confirmed looking back at the emails
- astrea 3y ago
  Meanwhile Andy could’ve gotten Apple Care for 3 years for $140 USD (~ €128).
  - suprjami 3y ago
    I've worked in laptop repair for various brands before (Acer, Dell, Compaq). Whenever people ask my advice I always recommend they buy a laptop extended warranty, and I buy it myself. It usually pays for itself on the first service call. That said, a thousand Euros to replace a battery is ludicrous. No consumer should be charged that, warranty or no. For reference, I recently got a second hand recent ThinkPad with a dud battery and bought the genuine replacement battery for AU$200 (€123) and could replace it myself as it's an FRU. Apple should not be charging literally an entire order of magnitude more for the same part, regardless of the service cost.
    - windowsrookie 3y ago
      They don't charge that much. As per the Apple website, they charge $249 to replace the battery in a 2019 16" MacBook Pro. https://support.apple.com/mac/repair https://support.apple.com/mac/repair
pfannkuchen 3y ago
I’m entertained that Apple has an informal customer support service built under Tim’s email. He doesn’t actually personally read these does he? I’ve heard of a few other examples where this worked, including for other companies. How does this work internally?
- wkat4242 3y ago
  It's a practice started by Steve Jobs who (very rarely) read customer emails and followed up. Not always positively. The iPhone 4 "you're holding it wrong" thing came from there too. Knowing cook's process driven nature he probably just put a team on it.
footlose_3815 3y ago
For most people, this is a "You didn't know the consequences, so you never did it" kind of situation. I partially blame the process. The OOBE workflow gives you the option to not enable Find my Mac, so some percentage of users refuse. Not all Mac owners are fluent in Apple's walled garden. But to counter my last point, owning a mac requires a mild investment in learning, and a lot of buy-in for their ecosystem, including linking and locking it with an online account. Apple Store. Apple Music. Activation Lock / iCloud everything. Not all users are fully aware of that though, and OP's scenario is one of those journeys. But now that you know, this scenario is analogous to keeping a spare key outside your car. Someone can take it and install a new lock cylinder. If your laptop changes hands and someone wiped it and put an activation lock of their own on it. This is working as intended. There's no functional difference between selling it to that person because anyone can wipe a machine and put a new lock on it. The alternative includes setting up an activation lock of your own, or putting MDM on it. This is a feature of Apple's walled garden. You either go all-in, or you go against the grain and lose the benefits and get blindsided by an unforeseen experience. Personal thoughts: I manage Macs for a living, but never will buy one of my own. Not just the walled garden complaints above, but a 5 year old Lenovo with similar specs is a better technical investment than a 5 year old Mac. The Mac will be slower with 5 years of OS updates, meanwhile the Lenovo you won't really notice a difference. It's also less than half the price.
Kon-Peki 3y ago
This policy is to prevent people from selling their laptop to someone (who sets up an account with Find My Mac) and then stealing it back and requesting Apple to make it theirs again.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Selling and stealing back can't possibly happen often enough to warrant that, can it?
  - thih9 3y ago
    With an attack vector this significant, frequency matters less. Would you want to rely on a laptop if some third party (original owner) could reassign it to themselves?
    - jojobas 3y ago
      This warrants signing some paperwork when purchasing, not including a hardware rootkit at the factory.
      - thih9 3y ago
        The hardware rootkit is there for a different reason, I was only saying why they don’t allow original owners to circumvent that.
- Asooka 3y ago
  That sounds only slightly less plausible than using it to hack and blow up a nuclear power plant. A scenario against which the MacBook has zero protections in place.
- BlackFly 3y ago
  No policy they put in place will actually coincide with the legal definition of ownership though. In many jurisdictions, there are conditions where you can lawfully purchase stolen property, there are some caveat emptor issues, but assuming the lock occurs after purchase, Apple could in theory be compelled to unlock the laptop for the new owner. There are all kinds of other less dubious ownership transfers as well. Apple just isn't in a position to arbitrate them all while the law recognizes a second hand market.
encoderer 3y ago
How many people work in the “office of the ceo” in a company like Apple or Amazon? Does he have like 5 assistants that cover different areas or is this a fully staffed org with 30+ people around the world?
kazinator 3y ago
A user being denied access to a resource they own is a security issue. It has a name: denial of service (attack).
- jojobas 3y ago
  Any Apple device connected to the interwebs is at Apple's sole discretion. They literally can lock you out at any time. Think different.
deleted 3y ago
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keepamovin 3y ago
My theory is that the shop reset the MacBook and reported it as lost with a new Apple ID in order to extort the person//Perhaps the person didn’t want to admit it, but they actually paid money to the shop, who initially gave it back to them “unlocked”. Later the shop could lock it again by reporting it as lost, as a way to ask for more money from the person again. Wow... Moral of the story is never take your Apple devices for any kind of internal repair to anyone except Apple authorized shops. There's a lot of tiny device shops that do fantastic work with all kinds of phone screens, protectors, fixing broken stuff...but there's definitely some unscrupulous ones out there. Really sad that these scammy ones give the tiny hard-working little shops a bad name...:(
ahepp 3y ago
The story is 2500+ words in two different articles, to summarize: * The author's MacBook was lost/stolen * Because the author hadn't set up Find My, someone else was able to reset the laptop * When the author recovered the laptop, someone else had set up Find My and reported the laptop lost * Because someone else had set up Find My, the author was unable to reset the laptop * Apple refused to reset the laptop for the author, despite the author having a receipt for the laptop's original purchase It's interesting to me, because it's actually an inversion of the whole "we don't own our devices anymore" trope. The author successfully begged Apple to backdoor an otherwise effective security and ownership protection. Apple gave the author the tools to recover their laptop in the event it was lost or stolen, and the author consciously chose not to use those tools. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, and if you don't have Find My enabled it's 10/10ths of the law. That means if someone else gains possession of your device, and you chose not to use Find My, there is nothing Apple can or should do to save you. How would they know who the legitimate owner is beyond possession or Find My? People sell used MacBooks all the time. Just because the author was the original purchaser, doesn't mean they are the rightful owner. In this case I believe the author probably is the rightful owner, but I would rather Apple not be the judge of that. This is literally only a problem for people too stubborn to set up Find My, who also care deeply about recovering their laptop if it gets lost. Think about how paradoxical that is!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- asdgaijion 3y ago
  >It's interesting to me, because it's actually an inversion of the whole "we don't own our devices anymore" trope. No it isn't. "Find My" is controlled by Apple, not entirely by the user. The fact that it is possible for Apple to undo the lock proves that the device isn't controlled by the owner.
  - ahepp 3y ago
    > The fact that it is possible for Apple to undo the lock proves that the device isn't controlled by the owner. I agree I think it's an inversion of the trope because this is presented as a good thing, and something that Apple should do more of.
deleted 3y ago
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dang 3y ago
Related: Not setting up Find My bricked my MacBook - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37865941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37865941 - Oct 2023 (556 comments)
gymbeaux 3y ago
Oh absolutely it was an extortion attempt from the shop. Name and shame if you can.
artdigital 3y ago
Wait so help me understand this - how did the store revoke the existing activation lock? Or did this happen because OP forgot to setup FindMy when they first got the device?
- gymbeaux 3y ago
  Sounds like the latter
turquoisevar 3y ago
I’m happy for OP, but this is for the most part working as intended. Ownership is hard to establish in a world where selling 2nd hand and gifting items exists. Last thing you want is to facilitate a boomerang scam or give an abusive partner control over someone’s device. As far as I know Find My is opt-out nowadays and while Apple could see if they could tweak the onboarding language a bit to warn people of potential bad outcomes, you want to keep onboarding clean in general and including all ifs and buts for every feature would make that impossible. I think there’s also something to be said for the lack of curiosity amongst users these days. Apple publishes manuals for all their devices which go into great detail and get updated with every major OS update. Devices also offer up a tour (macOS) and tips (iOS) that go over useful features. And there’s of course the option to look into features yourself.
DeathArrow 3y ago
So what should other people in this position do? Complaining on HN and emailing to Apple CEO isn't a working model. What about a lawsuit against Apple?
politelemon 3y ago
A simple lesson I feel many including the author are missing after that ordeal. It's not your MacBook.
micheal0147 3y ago
[dead]
user_of_the_wek 3y ago
I'm sure this is true for a lot of companies, many have a support department that takes care of the "difficult cases". On of the quickest ways to get in touch with them is through sending emails or letters to the CEO. Bonus points if strongly worded, although the people working there will hate you while trying to help you out. They might be better connected and have options to handle things that a normal support person doesn't have. Source: I'm married to someone working in one of those departments.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
What is this scenario where someone's laptop gets stolen and then somehow returned to them? Is that common? Never heard of that ever. And with all this information about what happened to it while it was stolen. So weird.
trodat14 3y ago
I wonder if Tim could get my stolen Apple ID back? A thief took my phone after watching me enter my passcode, so they were able to change the “trusted phone number” and lock me out. There’s a new feature in iOS 17.3 to prevent this but it wasn’t available at the time. Several calls to Apple Support explaining the situation and offering to provide any form of identification they’d like hasn’t helped; their policy is that the phone number is the key piece to verify your identity, even more so than the email for the Apple ID. I lost a couple hundred in purchased apps, but losing years’ of photos was the worst. I had apparently selected an option to keep the full-res images in iCloud, so my backups only contained thumbnails. Lots of lessons learned, but such a frustrating experience.
nektro 3y ago
and this is why devices like this need biometrics not/and passwords

493 points by pwim 3y ago

Mostly unrelated, but I think activation lock and similar schemes should have an expiry date, like 2-3 years. It will drastically reduce the amount of senseless e-waste that are perfectly working computers someone just didn't bother to log out of.

c0pium 3y ago
If it’s a corporate MacBook that’s not a concern.
- WWLink 3y ago
  It should be. Corporations are probably the biggest producers of ewaste there is.
  - c0pium 3y ago
    It’s not a concern because corporate linked MacBooks can be easily unlocked by the corporation regardless of if the assigned user is available or logged in.
    - chongli 3y ago
      Sure, but lots of corporations will have all their old devices shredded rather than unlock and sell them.
      - majewsky 3y ago
        Including Apple! They were found in 2017 to force their recyclers to shred old iPhones and Macbooks to ensure that the parts cannot be reused. https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon...
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  On one level it’s not because if you hand me a DEP/MDM MacBook, even T2/ Apple Silicon, it can be completely bypassed in under three minutes with no issues.
qingcharles 3y ago
Last year someone who owned a bar gave me a whole box of iPhones, lots of very new ones that had been left behind and never collected. Out of about two dozen phones only one was recoverable (iPhone 7), all the others were ewaste.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  Can't they be sold for parts on eBay?
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    As I understand it only some of the parts can be reused (the case?) as the parts now have ID in them that has to match the rest of the device. You can't replace the screen in an iPhone without a call to Apple to update the ID numbers.
    - talldatethrow 3y ago
      Jesus. Are even the batteries like that? Ive replaced the battery on my pixel 4xl with a $19 Amazon new from China copy.
      - chongli 3y ago
        This is all part of the program to fight theft. If the parts were freely usable then people would be stealing devices and fencing them to chop shops.
talldatethrow 3y ago
I worked at car dealerships before, and the number of iPads thrown away eventually because no one can log into them after a while is atleast 10+ that I've personally seen. Basically about 33% of them after a year.
the_black_hand 3y ago
ewaste is problem but bricking them is the only strong security deterent. Many criminals would be happy to steal a brand new iphone and resell it after 3 years.
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  I don't think you have thought this through. Organized crime gets phones from thieves that go around in (for instance) concerts and pick pocket and then sell the phones which then get sent to a location where they are reset/parted out and resold. Would they be willing to pay money to the thieves just to sit on a hoard of phones for 3 years and then sell them at suitably discounted prices? I'd wager that is doubtful. Non-organized crime is generally opportunistic. Would the opportunistic criminal know of this reset date, and if they did would they be willing to wait 3 years to fence the phone? I'd wager that is doubtful.
  - chongli 3y ago
    then sell the phones which then get sent to a location where they are reset/parted out and resold You can’t do that with an activation locked iPhone. The user can remotely brick the device using Find My. The parts can’t be removed and reused either because they all have IDs in them which are locked to the device. A stolen iPhone is nothing more than scrap metal and glass.
    - Eisenstein 3y ago
      Quick search for recent news popped this up: "The officers advised Chistancho that his bag violated the event rules and proceeded to remove it from his possession. Upon inspecting the bag, officers found a smaller black bag inside, which, when opened, revealed a metallic inner lining consistent with a Faraday bag – a device commonly used to block phone signals. To their surprise, the Faraday bag contained a total of 12 stolen iPhones of various models. One of the victims of the thefts was able to positively identify one of the recovered phones as stolen from him." * https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-dade/two-phone-thieves-nabbed-red-handed-at-rolling-loud-music-festival-in-miami/ https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-dade/two-phone-thieves-nab... If they can't use them for anything, what would they want with 12 iPhones? > The user can remotely brick the device using Find My. I guess that's what the faraday bag is for.

CSMastermind 3y ago

> When first activating a MacBook, Apple makes it easy to skip setting up FindMy. But given the severe consequences for not doing so, I think either need to revise the setup workflow to make this downside abundantly clear, or revisit their unlock policy altogether. Seems like a reasonable suggestion, hopefully someone at Apple sees it and adds in a warning about the consequences of skipping that step.

c0pium 3y ago
And then they will immediately get publicly roasted for scaring users into creating that account. There’s no stance they can take here which makes everyone happy.
iJohnDoe 3y ago
Is this because if you do not add the device to your FindMy account, then someone else can add it to their account and lock the device? If that’s the case, then that should be the warning. “If you skip this step, then someone could add this device to their FindMy account and lock you out of your device. Apple will not help you under any circumstance if this occurs. We recommend adding this device to your FindMy account to maintain access to this expensive thing you just bought.”
Terretta 3y ago
I'm firmware locked out of an OS-update bricked Macbook 2019. I wouldn't care if the OS booted, I don't need the firmware password to use it, only to wipe it. I don't really want to wipe it, I want it to boot. I bought it with cash in Grand Central. I have my welcome to your New Mac email from the week they launched and it's in Find My still today. But I didn't keep the cash receipt and I password protected the firmware before an International trip, and don't remember that. Apple will not unlock it, though it's in Find My, and has only been mine for its entire history. (They also won't unlock it, fix the bricked OS update, and lock it again, which would be fair enough. But as I see it, they broke my machine, and they prevent me from unbreaking it.) So FindMy won't save you from yourself. :-/

toomuchtodo 3y ago

It is delightful that OP was able to get Tim’s exec team to fix this for them. Broadly speaking, this indicates that there needs to be a mechanism to bind your IRL identity to your digital identity and your device(s). Instead of showing proof of purchase, you provide a government credential you bound to the account and or the device, and assuming trust in the identity proofing process, you receive access to your device or account because you are known to be who tied the device to your IRL identity. Emailing Tim doesn’t scale. (I have filed comments with the FTC on this account recovery matter regulatory gap; identity is a component of my work in infosec, primarily in financial services)

qingcharles 3y ago
What about those of us who are unable to obtain government ID?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  You’re default fucked anyway current state based on this anecdote. Broadly speaking, government should make it as straightforward as possible to obtain a legitimate government credential from an equity perspective for a variety of lifetime identity needs (and about 1% of the US population has no government ID). Out of 200 countries, 170 have a national ID system. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-rights-national-id-card/619772/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/08/voting-...
  - qingcharles 3y ago
    I'm the 1% in the USA, due to immigration issues.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      No gov creds from home country on hand from across the pond? Should be able to walk into an embassy or consulate and have them provided if you haven’t yet. Purposely being vague to attempt to answer your inquiry without divulging your personal info.

jiqiren 3y ago

[flagged]

slantedview 3y ago
You think Apple should allow other people to enroll in find my for your device?
- vulcan01 3y ago
  How would they know it was a different person? Part of the point of enrolling your device in Find My is preventing others from doing so.
- alistairSH 3y ago
  If the device was “factory reset”, it’s not really your device any more (as in, Apple no longer knows it’s your device). If “Find my…” is the system Apple uses to prevent devices from being used after theft, then they should just make it mandatory, or at least very difficult to opt out.

jtriangle 3y ago

I'm glad the machine was restored to usable condition, I've had a laptop stolen from me in the past, it was returned in an evidence bag, in about 1000 pieces, which was very frustrating to get an excited call a year after it'd happened telling me the police had recovered it, only to be greeted with, well, an unusable husk. That said, yours is a completely artificial problem imposed upon you by the company you made a purchase from. You don't have the private keys to your own device, which means ultimately, your usage of that device is conditional on being in the good graces of a group of very wealthy, indifferent, strangers. That, in, and of itself, is the issue at hand here, and while you've found yourself a favorable outcome, you're likely an exception to the rule.

userbinator 3y ago
[flagged]
Zambyte 3y ago
> You don't have the private keys to your own device This here is the misunderstanding. It's simply not possible for you to own Apple's computers.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Yeah laptops are going the same way as content "No you're not buying a book/movie, just a license to use it". It's a bit depressing.
judge2020 3y ago
What is the better solution that retains the anti-theft capabilities of the device? The value of stolen (activation-locked) iPhones and Macs is largely only on in overseas markets where they can strip the device down to usable parts - or, if you're lucky, you'll get threatening text messages telling you to remove the device from your icloud[0, 1] so they can sell it as a fully working phone. The inability for a thief to just flash the device with fresh firmware and use it as if it were new is a key selling point of the device and might justify the higher price tag to some buyers. 0: https://old.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/13yn1o0/phone_stolen_at_coachella_been_getting_tons_of/ https://old.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/13yn1o0/phone_st... 1: https://old.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/16fcd4c/recently_lost_phone_and_got_this_weird_message/ https://old.reddit.com/r/applehelp/comments/16fcd4c/recently...

deleted 3y ago

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flashback2199 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
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oneplane 3y ago
> Buy a laptop whose hardware is actually open. Nice idea in theory, not really applicable in the real world. Not on the technical side because it doesn't exist (you have no access go the Intel Boot ROM on the CPU, and not to modern AGESA to start with something fundamental, but also no access to AMD or NV GPU specs, they are about as closed as they can get). On the market and people side, there just isn't enough of a market for it. The closest you might get is Framework where you get modules (but no open firmwares and things like information for all registers on all chips). Most people don't buy a 'collection of components' to then 'install firmware, a bootloader, an operating system and applications'. That market doesn't exist. Instead, they have some sort of preconceived notion about an appliance they want, and they really aren't interested in the technical details. It just needs to work, preferable as soon as you take it out of the box without having to do special things to it. People might be persuaded to care about ecological impact, or long-term cost, or maybe even ROI when buying a more expensive device vs. a cheaper device (if applicable). But technical details will never win, it never has. Not with laptops, not with phones, not with video cassettes.
- flashback2199 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - oneplane 3y ago
    I am not saying you are the only person who used Boot Camp. And I am also not saying this can only apply to x86_64. And if you use your own definition of 'open', just buy some random Dell or Lenovo laptop and live a happy life. Apple's market and your market doesn't have to intersect. As for what market doesn't exist: the one with the more globally used definition of 'open'. There is an insignificant amount of users that would really like it (including me), and unless you count the OLPC, there is no market, because even if we assume a demand, there is no supply because it's not feasible. Even if you'd just take NDA'ed technology as an example.

qingcharles 3y ago

Whenever I have an issue with a product that support can't/won't resolve I go to one of those sites where you can buy contact info and purchase the CEO's email addresses and phone numbers then go at them. I just had to do it for the recent Google class action payout (got me my check overnighted). I did it with Cash App though and it backfired ("Your account has been terminated for contacting employees outside of the support system") Now, how much is Sundar Pichai's cellphone number going to cost me? I just want to get into my Google account that I have the username, password and recovery email for, but not the old phone number.

arcastroe 3y ago
If you're willing to share, I'd love to hear the Cash App story. Seems like a slap in the face for them to terminate your account for trying to resolve an issue with their service.
- qingcharles 3y ago
  In very quick summary: I bought a product online using my Cash App debit card. Turns out with more research company was a total scam. After 6 weeks of not shipping anything I asked for refund. They shipped "something" to me, but FedEx failed to deliver the box (said I was out but never even came down my street) and the package was returned to the sender. Sender closed their corporation and opened under another name and continued scam. I asked Cash App to do a chargeback. They told me their system doesn't allow chargebacks where the goods were "delivered." I told them they were never delivered. They argued that they were delivered back to the sender, therefore they were "delivered." I got all their execs cellphones and started politely calling them. One escalated it to their "Executive Support" who gave me the same answer, then my account was terminated. They did issue me a refund as part of the termination, but I can no longer use Cash App which is very frustrating for someone at the bottom of the food chain like me who interacts regularly with people who only use Cash App as their banking. In the interest of resolving your dispute, we are providing, as a one-time courtesy, a reimbursement of $93.75 for your transaction with Wibargin, LLC. Additionally, we are electing to terminate your Cash App account (as allowed in our Terms of Service, section XIII.8). As a result of the termination of your Cash App account, you will no longer be able to use Cash App and its services going forward. You will be able to access your account in order to cash out your remaining funds, however all other features, including the Cash Card, will be permanently disabled.

neom 3y ago

I got a pair of Airpod max back from Apple (they'd evidently replaced them with a refurb pair.) Didn't use them for a couple of days till I heard them making a sound. I pulled them out and got a notice on my phone that the AirPod Max I had was associated with an iCloud account. I wasn't super stoked about getting a pair of trackable headphones given to me by Apple so I emailed Tim and explained the situation. Got a call back the next day from someone in the Apple exec service team asking for the details, I explained and mentioned I wanted 2 things resolved. Non-refurbished pair of headphones and an understanding if they could have indeed been tracked or not. The next day got an answer back on both of them: no, can't have a non-refurbished pair. And, yes, could have been tracked via the find my the headphones were attached to, sorry about that!

Washuu 3y ago
The fact that they are replacing them with a refurbished product is ridiculous in the first place.
- angulardragon03 3y ago
  Refurbished Apple products are generally in almost indistinguishable condition from new, and are thus likely in better condition than a device you bring for repair months or years into using it. Using refurbished devices to replace used devices is a surefire way to "reduce, reuse, recycle" (especially considering that refurbishing also re-uses any returns Apple receives).
  - microtherion 3y ago
    These are all good arguments, but that does not absolve Apple from the responsibility of checking that their refurbished products are not registered to a different ID. That device never should have been accepted for a return, let alone shipped to a different customer.
    - angulardragon03 3y ago
      Absolutely agreed (which is why I did not say that it did) :)

crazydoggers 3y ago

I’m sorry, but I honestly feel like this is the OPs fault entirely. It’s clear they had disabled account security on the laptop, in order for the other user who swapped laptops to add their account to that laptop. It’s not even that they didn’t enable “Find My” (which it does during initial setup, all you need to do is add an iCloud account)… he disable the password required setting to open the Mac. (Yes you can disable the requirements for logging in, but it’s definitely not the default setting) If you jump through such hoops in the first place to weaken your computer’s security, your can’t claim it’s not your fault when someone encrypts your computer on you. I buy Mac’s specifically because for me this is a feature. I have backups. And if someone steals my laptop or I lose it, I’d much rather be out the money and the hardware and have it 100% bricked unusable and inaccessible, than have any possibility of my data getting accessed. (Not to mention making it worthless to the average petty thief). Creating a work around, no matter how many N levels of authentication means there’s a hole for social engineering, and I’m definitely not a fan of that. So it’s a trade off. If you don’t care about such level of security, then there are other laptop options, but please don’t ask Apple to start making their security weaker because there are those of us who want it this way. And if you’re traveling with your laptop, put a password on it at least, and better yet encrypt it.

the_black_hand 3y ago
Agree. OP messed up. How would anyone not bother to set a password or "find my" on a $1200 Macbook? That's just negligence and complaining to Apple about it is a bit silly. I haven't set up a Macbook in a while, but I bet you have to go out of your way to disable those security features.
- crazydoggers 3y ago
  It’s a little like buying a Lamborghini, and then speeding and totaling it, and then complaining they need to make it not as fast so you can’t do that.
  - crazydoggers 3y ago
    To be a little less facetious though, at what point do we expect a company to dig us out of our own mistakes. Let’s say you didn’t know you had to take your new car in for an oil change? You ignore the warning lights and requests to service the vehicle. When the vehicle breaks down, I think it’s obvious that the car manufacturer can’t be responsible for fixing it for you. To me, this is the same. The computer is functioning exactly like it should, locking him out is a feature for the vast majority of users, requiring some very basic knowledge to prevent/fix (as mentioned in my other comment, it’s hard to have what happened to him happen without circumventing security on the mac)

the_black_hand 3y ago

why would anyone in their right mind not set up "find my" ?

iJohnDoe 3y ago
The location data could be subpoenaed later. Account could be compromised later and used to get location of person. Apple could get hacked tomorrow or 6 months from now and all location data leaked. Journalists. Human Rights Activists. Etc.
- the_black_hand 3y ago
  The vast majority of people do not have to deal with these concerns. The odds of you losing your device are way higher than Apple getting hacked by orders of magnitude. If you are someone who falls into these professions then you probably should know what you're doing and disable it, or buy a different phone, or have some kind of backup security in place.
  - hnfong 3y ago
    > The vast majority of people You said "anyone". GP gave examples.
- gruez 3y ago
  At least on macs you can enable find my with location services disabled, which mitigates your concern.
- fh9302 3y ago
  Find My network uses E2EE so the location can't be subpoenaed.
  - grishka 3y ago
    It's the "guys please trust us we implemented our stuff the way we promised" kind of E2EE though.
3y ago

oneplane 3y ago

This has happened with various anti-theft systems for a really long time, most of those cases not having a happy ending (some sort of class-action payout of a few pennies at best). I wouldn't be surprised that there is no real 'have your cake and eat it too' version of this where you can make something secure (both integrity and confidentiality) while also not risking losing access or ownership yourself. At least not yet. It has the same issue trying to make a 'regulatory backdoor' in a crypto system, it just weakens the system and as a result just means such backdoors get abused by everyone making the crypto system worthless.

hliyan 3y ago

Every business should be able to service their customers in human-to-human interactions. "We're too big to have humans speak to our human customers" is becoming normalised and that's a trend we need to reverse. Growing revenue streams without investing in the support those revenue streams need, is a bad business practice.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
You can get a phone call from an Apple representative very quickly in my experience. https://support.apple.com/contact https://support.apple.com/contact
edude03 3y ago
It's a poor moral practice perhaps but arguably a good business practice to spend as little as possible on "cost centres"
- tadfisher 3y ago
  Agreed. f Apple did this they'd quickly go from a $1 trillion dollar company to a $999 billion company.
- balderdash 3y ago
  It’s short term thinking - if you want don’t want repeat business burn your customers. I got given a Patagonia bag (not my thing), the wheel broke off (thanks AA), took it to a store, and the customer service was so good I’m a convert. Conversely, I recently stopped using a service I spent >$20k a year on because their customer service was so bad. Can you boost profitability short term? Definitely, but I suspect in the long term you trading long term customer NPV for short term profits
woutr_be 3y ago
I recently had a human at my local banks' branch (after 30 minutes of waiting) tell me I should call their phone hotline to get my issue resolved. They couldn't (or refused) to do it in person.

bitwize 3y ago

Reminds me of the time my dad bought a TRS-80 and the screw holes were filled with Glyptal to prevent end-user repair or modification. He drilled through the Glyptal, then contacted the literal president of Tandy to complain. Tandy never sealed the screw holes to its computers again (though they did still do the "warranty void if this sticker is broken" trick on some of their equipment). I doubt Apple will fix their practices though. They may be in the right: as soon as that MacBook got stolen it should have been considered compromised and completely forfeit. Cryptographically tying your hardware to your digital identity, as Apple does, provides, among other things, a means to recover your hardware without having to consider it untrustworthy. Hell, Tandy may have been in the right. TRS-80 hardware was bodgy as all get-out and sometimes downright dangerous to open: the cathode on the CRT was dangerously close to the mainboard and likely to fry the computer, if not the user, if the user wasn't skilled enough to open the machine very carefully.

musicale 3y ago
> Tandy never sealed the screw holes to its computers again Good that they actually fixed it when he complained! They also apparently sold a terrific "technical reference manual" that explained the hardware design and operation in detail and also included a parts list and schematics: https://www.trs-80.com/wordpress/publications/manuals-service/ https://www.trs-80.com/wordpress/publications/manuals-servic... I believe Apple used to provide schematics for its early machines as well.
ryandrake 3y ago
It's never OK to prevent a purchaser from doing something with the item he purchased. If I buy something from a company, I should be able to take it apart, learn about it, fix it, resell it, or throw it in the trash, all without begging the manufacturer for permission. We should not normalize this practice of manufacturers having these "tethers" into the products they sell.

RagnarD 3y ago

That such an email led to a positive resolution for him should be a giant red flag to Apple. I doubt this is just a corner case, so it means that Apple's systems are badly flawed and need to be corrected.

shinryuu 3y ago
Any system is flawed in different ways. The fact that apple has a course corrective measure through cooks email is a positive.
- eviks 3y ago
  Any system has some course corrective action, so then it's not a positive

nuker 3y ago

I believe my letter to Tim Cook worked too! MacOS Big Sur broke support for high refresh rate external displays for Intel Macs. It was the DSC feature of HDMI/DP protocols, 4 years ago. Everyone that had it working at 4k@144Hz in MacOS Catalina, got only 60Hz in Big Sur and later. Apple Support / Engineering department had me to install Catalina, show that 4k@144Hz actually works, got a ton of diagnostic data and came back with "you may downgrade to Catalina as a solution" LOL Wrote to Tim Cook, with case number and, wait for it, MacOS Sonoma had it fixed!

gojomo 3y ago

Seems another example of Apple pretending it can't (or never would) do something related to stolen equipment – that they can & actually do if you just reach the right person with the right request. My related story of someone likely circumventing my activation lock, using either fake docs or a compromised Apple-authorized agent, a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38622248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38622248

silcoon 3y ago

Why I don't buy MacBook for personal use anymore: - in 2019 spent more than €3K to buy the best macbook 15' available (> 2 months of average salary in my Europe country) - 2 weeks before the warranty (1y) the spacebar broke, the SPACEBAR!!!. It was a design issue and it got replaced in a few days by the local service under warranty. - 1 year later, the battery starts dying out. Go to the authorized repairer and it was going to cost me ~€750 to replace the battery since I had to replace the entire keyboard and trackpad to do that. - I found a PC repair shop that said he can do it for a couple hundred €, and it worked fine - 3 months later the laptop shut down unexpectedly. The apple refused to fix it (even paying) because I used a battery not official. The Mac is now a brick So 2.5y of personal use (not professional) cost me €3.5K. More expensive than a cheap car. edit: the battery replacement with all top case cost me ~€750. Confirmed looking back at the emails

astrea 3y ago
Meanwhile Andy could’ve gotten Apple Care for 3 years for $140 USD (~ €128).
- suprjami 3y ago
  I've worked in laptop repair for various brands before (Acer, Dell, Compaq). Whenever people ask my advice I always recommend they buy a laptop extended warranty, and I buy it myself. It usually pays for itself on the first service call. That said, a thousand Euros to replace a battery is ludicrous. No consumer should be charged that, warranty or no. For reference, I recently got a second hand recent ThinkPad with a dud battery and bought the genuine replacement battery for AU$200 (€123) and could replace it myself as it's an FRU. Apple should not be charging literally an entire order of magnitude more for the same part, regardless of the service cost.
  - windowsrookie 3y ago
    They don't charge that much. As per the Apple website, they charge $249 to replace the battery in a 2019 16" MacBook Pro. https://support.apple.com/mac/repair https://support.apple.com/mac/repair

pfannkuchen 3y ago

I’m entertained that Apple has an informal customer support service built under Tim’s email. He doesn’t actually personally read these does he? I’ve heard of a few other examples where this worked, including for other companies. How does this work internally?

wkat4242 3y ago
It's a practice started by Steve Jobs who (very rarely) read customer emails and followed up. Not always positively. The iPhone 4 "you're holding it wrong" thing came from there too. Knowing cook's process driven nature he probably just put a team on it.

footlose_3815 3y ago

For most people, this is a "You didn't know the consequences, so you never did it" kind of situation. I partially blame the process. The OOBE workflow gives you the option to not enable Find my Mac, so some percentage of users refuse. Not all Mac owners are fluent in Apple's walled garden. But to counter my last point, owning a mac requires a mild investment in learning, and a lot of buy-in for their ecosystem, including linking and locking it with an online account. Apple Store. Apple Music. Activation Lock / iCloud everything. Not all users are fully aware of that though, and OP's scenario is one of those journeys. But now that you know, this scenario is analogous to keeping a spare key outside your car. Someone can take it and install a new lock cylinder. If your laptop changes hands and someone wiped it and put an activation lock of their own on it. This is working as intended. There's no functional difference between selling it to that person because anyone can wipe a machine and put a new lock on it. The alternative includes setting up an activation lock of your own, or putting MDM on it. This is a feature of Apple's walled garden. You either go all-in, or you go against the grain and lose the benefits and get blindsided by an unforeseen experience. Personal thoughts: I manage Macs for a living, but never will buy one of my own. Not just the walled garden complaints above, but a 5 year old Lenovo with similar specs is a better technical investment than a 5 year old Mac. The Mac will be slower with 5 years of OS updates, meanwhile the Lenovo you won't really notice a difference. It's also less than half the price.

Kon-Peki 3y ago

This policy is to prevent people from selling their laptop to someone (who sets up an account with Find My Mac) and then stealing it back and requesting Apple to make it theirs again.

jojobas 3y ago
Selling and stealing back can't possibly happen often enough to warrant that, can it?
- thih9 3y ago
  With an attack vector this significant, frequency matters less. Would you want to rely on a laptop if some third party (original owner) could reassign it to themselves?
  - jojobas 3y ago
    This warrants signing some paperwork when purchasing, not including a hardware rootkit at the factory.
    - thih9 3y ago
      The hardware rootkit is there for a different reason, I was only saying why they don’t allow original owners to circumvent that.
Asooka 3y ago
That sounds only slightly less plausible than using it to hack and blow up a nuclear power plant. A scenario against which the MacBook has zero protections in place.
BlackFly 3y ago
No policy they put in place will actually coincide with the legal definition of ownership though. In many jurisdictions, there are conditions where you can lawfully purchase stolen property, there are some caveat emptor issues, but assuming the lock occurs after purchase, Apple could in theory be compelled to unlock the laptop for the new owner. There are all kinds of other less dubious ownership transfers as well. Apple just isn't in a position to arbitrate them all while the law recognizes a second hand market.

encoderer 3y ago

How many people work in the “office of the ceo” in a company like Apple or Amazon? Does he have like 5 assistants that cover different areas or is this a fully staffed org with 30+ people around the world?

kazinator 3y ago

A user being denied access to a resource they own is a security issue. It has a name: denial of service (attack).

jojobas 3y ago
Any Apple device connected to the interwebs is at Apple's sole discretion. They literally can lock you out at any time. Think different.

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keepamovin 3y ago

My theory is that the shop reset the MacBook and reported it as lost with a new Apple ID in order to extort the person//Perhaps the person didn’t want to admit it, but they actually paid money to the shop, who initially gave it back to them “unlocked”. Later the shop could lock it again by reporting it as lost, as a way to ask for more money from the person again. Wow... Moral of the story is never take your Apple devices for any kind of internal repair to anyone except Apple authorized shops. There's a lot of tiny device shops that do fantastic work with all kinds of phone screens, protectors, fixing broken stuff...but there's definitely some unscrupulous ones out there. Really sad that these scammy ones give the tiny hard-working little shops a bad name...:(

ahepp 3y ago

The story is 2500+ words in two different articles, to summarize: * The author's MacBook was lost/stolen * Because the author hadn't set up Find My, someone else was able to reset the laptop * When the author recovered the laptop, someone else had set up Find My and reported the laptop lost * Because someone else had set up Find My, the author was unable to reset the laptop * Apple refused to reset the laptop for the author, despite the author having a receipt for the laptop's original purchase It's interesting to me, because it's actually an inversion of the whole "we don't own our devices anymore" trope. The author successfully begged Apple to backdoor an otherwise effective security and ownership protection. Apple gave the author the tools to recover their laptop in the event it was lost or stolen, and the author consciously chose not to use those tools. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, and if you don't have Find My enabled it's 10/10ths of the law. That means if someone else gains possession of your device, and you chose not to use Find My, there is nothing Apple can or should do to save you. How would they know who the legitimate owner is beyond possession or Find My? People sell used MacBooks all the time. Just because the author was the original purchaser, doesn't mean they are the rightful owner. In this case I believe the author probably is the rightful owner, but I would rather Apple not be the judge of that. This is literally only a problem for people too stubborn to set up Find My, who also care deeply about recovering their laptop if it gets lost. Think about how paradoxical that is!

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asdgaijion 3y ago
>It's interesting to me, because it's actually an inversion of the whole "we don't own our devices anymore" trope. No it isn't. "Find My" is controlled by Apple, not entirely by the user. The fact that it is possible for Apple to undo the lock proves that the device isn't controlled by the owner.
- ahepp 3y ago
  > The fact that it is possible for Apple to undo the lock proves that the device isn't controlled by the owner. I agree I think it's an inversion of the trope because this is presented as a good thing, and something that Apple should do more of.

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dang 3y ago

Related: Not setting up Find My bricked my MacBook - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37865941 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37865941 - Oct 2023 (556 comments)

gymbeaux 3y ago

Oh absolutely it was an extortion attempt from the shop. Name and shame if you can.

artdigital 3y ago

Wait so help me understand this - how did the store revoke the existing activation lock? Or did this happen because OP forgot to setup FindMy when they first got the device?

gymbeaux 3y ago
Sounds like the latter

turquoisevar 3y ago

I’m happy for OP, but this is for the most part working as intended. Ownership is hard to establish in a world where selling 2nd hand and gifting items exists. Last thing you want is to facilitate a boomerang scam or give an abusive partner control over someone’s device. As far as I know Find My is opt-out nowadays and while Apple could see if they could tweak the onboarding language a bit to warn people of potential bad outcomes, you want to keep onboarding clean in general and including all ifs and buts for every feature would make that impossible. I think there’s also something to be said for the lack of curiosity amongst users these days. Apple publishes manuals for all their devices which go into great detail and get updated with every major OS update. Devices also offer up a tour (macOS) and tips (iOS) that go over useful features. And there’s of course the option to look into features yourself.

DeathArrow 3y ago

So what should other people in this position do? Complaining on HN and emailing to Apple CEO isn't a working model. What about a lawsuit against Apple?

politelemon 3y ago

A simple lesson I feel many including the author are missing after that ordeal. It's not your MacBook.

micheal0147 3y ago

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user_of_the_wek 3y ago

I'm sure this is true for a lot of companies, many have a support department that takes care of the "difficult cases". On of the quickest ways to get in touch with them is through sending emails or letters to the CEO. Bonus points if strongly worded, although the people working there will hate you while trying to help you out. They might be better connected and have options to handle things that a normal support person doesn't have. Source: I'm married to someone working in one of those departments.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

What is this scenario where someone's laptop gets stolen and then somehow returned to them? Is that common? Never heard of that ever. And with all this information about what happened to it while it was stolen. So weird.

trodat14 3y ago

I wonder if Tim could get my stolen Apple ID back? A thief took my phone after watching me enter my passcode, so they were able to change the “trusted phone number” and lock me out. There’s a new feature in iOS 17.3 to prevent this but it wasn’t available at the time. Several calls to Apple Support explaining the situation and offering to provide any form of identification they’d like hasn’t helped; their policy is that the phone number is the key piece to verify your identity, even more so than the email for the Apple ID. I lost a couple hundred in purchased apps, but losing years’ of photos was the worst. I had apparently selected an option to keep the full-res images in iCloud, so my backups only contained thumbnails. Lots of lessons learned, but such a frustrating experience.

nektro 3y ago

and this is why devices like this need biometrics not/and passwords