20 ms·

To make dishwashers great again? (2020)

• hocuspocus 3y ago
  Nowadays the default eco cycle that is used to rate European dishwashers typically takes about 3 hours or more, and drying could indeed be better, but other than that, I can't really complain. You can still select a 1-hour 70° heavy duty cycle if needed. Same with washing machines. My wife gets annoyed, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't really care whether the default cycle takes 1h30 or 5h.
  • mikequinlan 3y ago
    If you are doing 3 loads (whites, colors, towels) it means 15 hours vs 4.5 hours.
    • marcus0x62 3y ago
      You separate your dishes by color when washing them?
      • mikequinlan 3y ago
        Ouch… Now I feel dumb.
      • grawlinson 3y ago
        Well yeah, how else do you stop color bleeding out and staining your other dishes?
        • deleted 3y ago
          [deleted]
    • dragonwriter 3y ago
      I suspect (both because of the color separation and the reference to towels) you have confused laundry machines with dishwashers. One doesn't usually separate dishes by color before washing them in a dishwasher, and even if for some reason one did, one still wouldn't usually wash towels in a dishwasher.
      • Macha 3y ago
        the second half of the GP comments changes topics to laundry, which is what I assume the parent comment was replying to
    • freddie_mercury 3y ago
      You don't need to separate any of those things when doing laundry. You're just making more work for yourself. Modern laundry washing machines also have a "finish at" timer. I set mine to finish at 8am so after breakfast I empty it out. If we really need to do 2 loads a day (it happens sometimes with a family) then the second one is done around lunch time.
    • hocuspocus 3y ago
      Without kids, we have no need to wash several loads on the same day. We separate colors, whites (mostly bed sheets) and towels, but they don't amount to a full load at the same time and get washed on their own periodic schedule, which never overlap.
  • ComputerGuru 3y ago
    I do the dishes one load at a time (wait for the dishwasher to fill up so I’m not running it empty) and let my European-make dishwasher run overnight when electricity is cheapest and cleanest. But laundry requires being hung or transferred to the dryer immediately after to avoid things getting stinky - and I usually have multiple sorted loads (whites, colors, delicates) that I can’t just throw all together so I actually do get annoyed at how slow my front-loading washing machine is.
    • lathiat 3y ago
      While you obviously don't want to leave washing wet for many hours all the time, if they are getting stinky within a few hours you likely have notable bacteria and scud build up in your machine that could be resolved. That has been my experience. Do you do a semi-regular hot cleaning cycle? (My washer has one built in and prompts you to run it every 40 cycles) but you can just do a hot, empty load as a substitute. Possibly ideally with some washing machine cleaner though I don't use that often. There is also the option of pulling it apart for a deep clean. It doesn't work with every laundry layout (luckily does for me) but I have found leaving the door open so it can dry out is very helpful to prevent mould built up on the doors etc at least. Not sure how much it effects the bacteria/scud/etc - could even make scud worse to some degree since deposits dry out I guess. Another tip that I only recently learnt is that you can dry washing with a dehumifier at a rate not that much slower than a clothes dryer (6-ish hours). Also at a rate cheaper or comparable to a heat pump dryer. That may be a good option for your staged washing if you're happy to hang the clothes out. On my washer at least the hour cycle does a pretty good job of things though in theory you're supposed to only wash like 3-4KG instead of 8-11 like in the 2-3 hour cycles. Two things I am reasonably sure matter but have not looked into the research and need to get around to doing is: - I have to wonder about the impact of long washing loads on clothes longevity and wearing out of the fabric, especially with fuller loads.. that's a lot of rubbing. - The washing powder I currently like the most definitely gets caught and leaves residue.. in particular it builds up -inside- the detergent drawer and becomes so glued on even a pressure washer and screwdriver takes a lot of effort to get it off (clearly needs CLR or some such). I am sure some detergents are much better at not building up SCUD compared to others but this seems to be a not well discussed/reviewed fact.
  • dredmorbius 3y ago
    If you need the dish or garment now (or quickly), it's an issue. If you're not going to be in, or need to process multiple loads (more likely for laundry than dishes) then long cycles turn the process into an all-day, or multi-day, function. I still prefer hand-washing dishes in most cases as it occurs in parallel with meal prep and eating (fill sink, soak cooking and prep pots and utensils whilst eating, finish and wash table dishes afterward, pop onto a drying rack. Ten minutes. Can be a conversation / bonding time with a partner, or a good time to listen to audiobooks, podcasts, music, etc., if solo. With a dishwasher, I'm constantly fishing out, and hand-washing, pots, utensils, or dishes that I need either before or during the wash cycle (which takes > 1 hour). Hand-washing that item alone? 1 minute tops. If you have a large family, there's potential time savings. Solo or couple? Not so much. As for efficiency: for dishwashers vs. fill sink / soak / scrub, there's little effective difference in water or energy, and the cycle time is far shorter.
    • philwelch 3y ago
      > With a dishwasher, I'm constantly fishing out, and hand-washing, pots, utensils, or dishes that I need either before or during the wash cycle (which takes > 1 hour). You could also just buy more dishes.
      • dredmorbius 3y ago
        That typically takes longer than a single dishwasher cycle. And costs more.
        • philwelch 3y ago
          It doesn’t have to take any extra time at all. Just buy more dishes next time you go to the store and you’ll stop running out of dishes during the day, then you can run the dishwasher once at night and never have to hand wash dishes again.
      • askvictor 3y ago
        Not always an option; particularly if you live in an apartment or are otherwise constrained for storage space.
  • _zoltan_ 3y ago
    It's so horrible that I can't get a washing machine that's fast. I don't care about the other metrics, just get it done perfectly. That's the most important.
• ggm 3y ago
  I totally do not agree with the "don't prewash in the sink" bullshit. It's based on specious reasoning about how "well" automatic dirt sensors can work. And, it does not necessarily waste water. "it depends" -eg if you wipe the plates with a cloth, there may be less running water. Dishwasher checks by consumer groups do not test egg protein, or avocado. They need to test with real world, tight locking protein and fats. And with lentils: the amount of fine gritty fibre which can remain in suspension is just fantastic. And then in the rinse cycle, it sits in the feet of plates and cups. I also believe that electro-coupling between different metals in cutlery means they age faster if you don't space them properly. If they touch, they can make a circuit.
  • LilBytes 3y ago
    What I've noticed is it's heavily dependent on the dishwasher. I've not had the privilege of having a new dishwasher till my most recent place, all the dishwashers prior have been 10+ years old. This new one though which is a Miele dishwasher has maybe 1-2 dishes that need to be manually washed per week at the very most. Whereas my older dishwashers it was anything from an extra 1-2 dishwasher loads per week worth of failed cleans.
    • thfuran 3y ago
      I'm surprised you need to do that much. I end up with probably more like 1-2 a year that need manual cleaning without ever prewashing.
      • ggm 3y ago
        The miele cutlery drawer is a game changer
        • foobarian 3y ago
          Also a huge Miele fan but in our case their water softener is the game changer. (On top of the other stuff :-)
• ericwebb 3y ago
  Why does a 1 hour cycle wash better than a two hour cycle? This article is pretty light on details.
  • MichaelZuo 3y ago
    It allows for two runs after a long dinner during normal waking hours, as opposed to just one.
    • linsomniac 3y ago
      I get that, and I believe most dish washers have an "express cycle" that'll run in significantly less time when you need.
      • MichaelZuo 3y ago
        Not for any residential, standard 24" below the counter, dishwasher sold in the U.S. after 2010 and before October 2020 that I've seen, hence why it was a noteworthy change.
        • BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
          Hmm. My kitchenaid dishwasher from that time period has an express cycle. Maybe it wasn't a new model at the time?
          • MichaelZuo 3y ago
            You should double check if the express cycle actually attains the same cleaning performance, because that would be pretty surprising. I did see examples when shopping that were in advertisement only. i.e. the 'express cycle' skipped something, the drying stage, or rinse stage(s), etc.
        • linsomniac 3y ago
          Bosch 800-series reporting in, ~6-8 years old (~2015): Standard cycle: 2h09m, "Save Time": 1h30m, Express: 30m.
• bigbillheck 3y ago
  What a weird article. For example: "And yes, it is crazy, if not also bad environmental public policy that the federal government regulates the robot in my kitchen that cleans and dries the dishes; and keeps changing the rules to the point that the machine first invented in 1886 no longer accomplishes its purpose."
  • quickthrower2 3y ago
    Why is that weird? Not really weird. It might be wrong? Is that what you are saying?
• paulcole 3y ago
  The myth that a dishwasher is more efficient than handwashing is perhaps the biggest hoodwink perpetrated on the millennial consumer.
  • icehawk 3y ago
    Doing things I enjoy, versus standing at the sink doing dishes is a pretty big efficiency gain for me.
  • linsomniac 3y ago
    Citation needed...
    • sitharus 3y ago
      Having grown up rurally on a limited water supply, I know you can do the dishes for a family of four in about 10L/2.5 gallons of water. You just have to scrape off all the solids first (four-legged helpers excel at this). If you want you can have a second small rinsing sink. When I moved to a city I found a lot of people wash with running water or change at the first hint of it getting dirty. However now I live in a city and have things to do, a dishwasher is great because no matter how long it takes I’m not doing the dishes.
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      • linsomniac 3y ago
        Ok, I'll agree that you CAN do it. However, outside of camping, I don't think I've ever seen someone actually do that. But, I'll concede that. My dishwasher uses 3.15 gallons on a normal wash cycle, which I don't feel too bad about.
      • Rapzid 3y ago
        Interesting, what do you mean by limited water supply? I grew up on pump water and it was unlimited. Hard as shit, but unlimited.
• amluto 3y ago
  The article is IMO quite unclear. I tried to understand what's actually going on. From the actual rule in the Federal Register (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/10/30/2020-23765/energy-conservation-program-establishment-of-a-new-product-class-for-residential-dishwashers https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/10/30/2020-23...): > Moreover, the current standard requires standard residential dishwashers to not exceed 307 kWh/year and 5.0 gallons per cycle for the “Normal” cycle. 10 CFR 430.32(f)(1)(i). Consistent with the results of the Department's evaluation of dishwashers offering a 60 to 90 minute “Quick” cycle, DOE's has identified an innovative opportunity for the further development of a dishwasher model offering a “Normal” cycle of one hour or less. I think the issue is that manufacturers struggle to get good cleaning performance subject to the 307 kWh/year, 5 gallon per cycle rule unless the cycle is very slow, and the DOE has indicated that it will allow more water and/or more energy usage for faster dishwashers. (Speaking of water usage, I find it odd that dishwashers don't seem to do a final spray with fresh (non-recirculated) water. I would gladly use an extra 1/4 - 1/2 gallon per load to get a freshwater rinse at the end. P.S. What's up with kWh/year anyway? Surely it should be kWh per cycle with an added restriction on additional power used when not running.
  • MichaelZuo 3y ago
    307 KWh/cycle would be over $30 in electricity costs, per cycle...
    • ComputerGuru 3y ago
      Obviously GP means the units should be converted to whatever they actually want usage/cycle to be.
      • MichaelZuo 3y ago
        No, it's not obvious at all as various models can have different numbers of modes, so even averaging them out for a usage/cycle average number wouldn't yield any meaningful info. e.g. A fancier model with several 'Eco' cycles and only one higher power mode will appear better than simpler models with fewer modes, even though the simpler model might actually use less energy. In fact it would be very counter-intuitive and highly misleading.
• BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
  I always wonder how much saving water and electricity washing dishes actually matters in relation to everything else we do. In the US people run their HVAC basically 24/7 either heating or cooling for a lot of the year. Our televisions, video game consoles, and computers are giant electric space heaters that run all day long. So what's the proportional burden of warming a few gallons of water? And I do mean warming, because people who wash dishes by hand don't make the water nearly as hot as what dishwashers use.
  • lathiat 3y ago
    (Note: All of this applies to Australia, if it's much different for your country, please share!) The one that pains me is ovens. They are hugely power hungry and here many models have a very tiny amount of insulation (unless you get a "pyrolitic" model that heats up to 500C to burn the oil off, they have better insulation by requirement of that). We have no energy rating for ovens, so no real incentive to improve. The vast majority are also installed by builders when the house is built, so consumers never even make a choice in the first place. You can also imagine that also pushes most builders to the bottom end of the market. I'm also still always surprised how expensive ovens can be for how simple they are. Most of them now also have a fan to run air around the the outside of the unit so it doesn't overheat the cupboard around it (but not all) which is perhaps also a hint at the poor insulation. The cheap builder model I most recently pulled apart had such poor insulation and gaps all around it. Choice's most recent review has running cost per year ranging from $310 to $651 (this is unfortunately behind a paywall): https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/ovens/review-and-compare/wall-ovens https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/ovens/revi... "The running costs are calculated based on running the oven at 170°C for one hour, three times per week for 10 years at 30c per kWh. Where available, the fan-forced function is used, otherwise, the fan-assist is used. For models without either function, the top and bottom elements (convection or traditional bake) are used." That's also probably generous since you often run a higher temp and I suspect 200-220C might make a big difference in that cost. It's a good reason to make use of appliances like air fryers (which despite the name are mostly just ovens), they heat a much smaller space and use a lot less power as a result. Unfortunately the ever shrinking house makes storing and using such things increasingly difficult. Microwaves are also only 50% effeceient (a surprise I recently learnt). I know why we don't have it, and energy ratings are partly a proxy for it, but I always wished the average consumer had easy ways to be more informed about trade-offs exactly like this article talks about. You can trade energy effeciency for a slower cycle - that's partly why most washers these days have many different cycle options - you're trading one thing for another - but most of the time they just tell you the name of the situation they are supposedly for without even a hint at maybe how much more or less energy or water or delicacy you are trading off. The same reason product reviews are never clear cut because everyone has different priorities :)
• enragedcacti 3y ago
  For anyone who is upset with the performance of their dishwasher there is a really really easy thing to try. First, replace your pods with a box of powder detergent, then add some detergent to the prewash cup on your dishwasher in addition to the normal dispenser. If your dishwasher doesn't have one you can just put some on the door before you close the washer. This gives your dishwasher detergent to work with on two of its cycles rather than just one and in my experience it makes all the difference on really difficult dishes. The pods are effectively identical to the powder detergent but at a huge cost premium and don't give you the ability to adjust your amount of detergent to match the water hardness in your area which can result in a film on your clean dishes. for more info there is a great Technology Connections video covering it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 Alternatively you can test this by just throwing an extra pod in the bottom of the dishwasher to start with. If it works well then you can consider switching to powder to save costs.
  • eurleif 3y ago
    Also helpful: running the sink's hot water before you run the dishwasher, until it heats up, so that the dishwasher has access to hot water from the moment it starts.
    • readthenotes1 3y ago
      Which can waste a bunch of water. I do mine by hand and am often done before the hot water arrives.
      • db48x 3y ago
        Then your house was built badly. But you can repair it by installing an instant water heater that goes under the sink.
        • shaklee3 3y ago
          You would need two since the dishwasher usually has its own dedicated hot valve
• dre85 3y ago
  Not sure how relevant the energy consumption piece is if you just hook it up to the hot water instead of cold? That's what you're supposed to do anyway to get it to actually clean something, right?
  • BugsJustFindMe 3y ago
    AFAIK dishwashers all internally heat the water. The machines tell you to hook up to the hot line in the US (I've heard they say to use the cold line in Europe but I don't live there), but the chance of actually getting hot water from your line is pretty minimal because they only fill for a few seconds at a time.
    • chongli 3y ago
      Just run the tap at the kitchen sink until the water gets as hot as possible, then start the dishwasher. It'll get nice hot water straight from the pipe that way!
      • SoftTalker 3y ago
        This works well unless you have a tankless water heater. Those are very bad for any appliances that fill water in short bursts, because they only heat while the water is flowing and the water only flows for a short time.
        • chongli 3y ago
          Yeah I am a big fan of giant tank water heaters. You can even set them up to run at the time of day when energy costs are lowest, if you have variable pricing, and the hot water will stay hot for a day or two unless you use a lot. Often energy prices will be lowest on the weekend which works great if you time your laundry cycles on those days!
          • bradknowles 3y ago
            You can also get small tanked or tankless water heaters that fit under your kitchen cabinet, and can help provide that hot water to your dishwasher. Which is especially important if your hot water heater is located far away from the kitchen and it would take a long time for actual hot water to arrive at your sink. I would recommend that you look at them closely and get the one that fits your use case the best. CR can also help here, because they will test them independently of the dishwasher.
• datavirtue 3y ago
  I have a new dish washer and it works very well of you don't block the jets from the detergent pocket. However, it takes so long that I have determined that its not practical. I just wash by hand. Wondered WTF people were thinking with it taking so long. It's a GE which has a food grinder in it. Very quiet.
  • vel0city 3y ago
    Sure, the dishwasher takes a few hours, but it's rare I'm ever actually waiting on it. Load over the day, run in the evening after dinner, clean dishes ready to unload either right before bed or in the morning. The loading/unloading is much faster and easier than actually washing by hand, and it's more efficient than what I'd do by hand.
  • mhb 3y ago
    How many loads are you doing per day?
    • k12sosse 3y ago
      Depends on the number of kids that are in the house in the last 48 hours
  • Rapzid 3y ago
    Does it have express wash? I have an issue due to low-ish water pressure upstairs and quite salty water from the softener where I need an extra rinse so I do an express main wash frequently.. Still clean dishes.
• KerrAvon 3y ago
  This was a Trump rollback of environment rules to please conservative nutjobs. Can we stop posting these here?
  • linksnapzz 3y ago
    Only 'conservative nutjobs' appreciate dishwashers that can actually clean dishes as well as they did in the 1980s.
    • code_witch_sam 3y ago
      Did the euro brands like Bosch and Miele ever do a bad job? From what I've read, they've been consistently good over the decades.
• dclowd9901 3y ago
  Surprising. I’ve found any dishwasher I’ve bought in the last 10 years has been absolutely _baller_ at washing dishes. Maybe it’s because I’m willing to spend the money on the good ones though.
  • mhb 3y ago
    So what's a good one?
    • bryanlarsen 3y ago
      Despite the internet providing a whole bunch of new ways to rate and compare things, the best way is still the same thing your mother and grandmother used: https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/dishwashers/best-dishwashers-of-the-year-a6109623431/ https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/dishwashers/best-...
      • bradknowles 3y ago
        My only problems with those listings are that they place a top premium on loudness of the dishwasher, and therefore they recommend Bosch as the quietest ones you can buy. Whereas I place a top premium on the dishwasher actually getting the dishes clean, and then getting them dry afterwards. Bosch does fine on the first part, but without a heated drying cycle, they're rubbish on the second part. I will never again buy another dishwasher without a heated drying cycle. So, yes -- use those tests and listings, but make sure you fully understand the data behind them and assign your own priorities to those attributes that you value. Because what CR values may not be the same thing that you value.
        • mhb 3y ago
          Agreed. I don't care how loud the dishwasher is. It runs at night and it's in the kitchen not the bedroom.
      • whycombagator 3y ago
        Unfortunately you have to login or signup to view the list (or at least for me that is the case)
• miley_cyrus 3y ago
  Biden is undoing this: https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/regulation/bidens-energy-department-releases-new-efficiency-standards-for-dishwashers/ https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/regulation/bidens.... In addition to adding regulations to our refrigerators, washing machines, stoves, etc. etc.
  • throw0101b 3y ago
    > Biden is undoing this: https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/regulation/bidens-energy-department-releases-new-efficiency-standards-for-dishwashers/ https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/regulation/bidens... I had not heard of the IER, and so looked them up: > The Institute for Energy Research (IER) is a Washington, D.C.-based non-profit organization that, according to itself, conducts research and analysis on the functions, operations, and government regulation of global energy markets.[1] IER maintains that the free market provides the most "efficient and effective solutions" to "global energy and environmental challenges".[1] > IER is often described as a front group for the fossil fuel industry.[2][3][4] It was initially formed by Charles Koch, receives donations from many large companies like Exxon, and publishes a stream of reports and position papers opposing any efforts to control greenhouse gasses. Thomas Pyle, president of the IER and its offshoot American Energy Alliance (AEA), was appointed to the US Department of Energy's transition team after the 2016 United States elections. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Energy_Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Energy_Research
    • miley_cyrus 3y ago
      How does that refute what I said?
      • vel0city 3y ago
        "Institute for Energy Research" aka "research ways to sell people more ~~energy~~ oil." A massive chunk of their donations come from Exxon who are very well known now to flood the information market with low-quality "science" to push their own agendas even if they know their agendas are not good. You ever think a research group owned by Koch and Exxon are ever going to find that one should burn less fossil fuels? You think Coca Cola is ever going to tell you to stop drinking Coke? Given the fact they're massively biased on the subjects, shouldn't you then probably take their "studies" with at least 5 tons of salt? I mean, c'mon now, they say stupid stuff like this: > Since paper plates and plastic utensils are not eligible for government food assistance programs, the proposed standard will hit the poor especially hard. Yeah, that's right, lets just slip in the idea of putting in some kind of government assistance to go buy disposable plastic right in this article. Who would stand to gain? Huh, Koch, the Koch family, Exxon, you know, their list of sponsors, etc. Its crazy to me how openly brazen and hostile they are with this logic. Then they say stuff like: > Manufacturers have warned reducing water and power in dishwashers has become increasingly difficult without impacting performance But at the same time mention: > While most dishwashers on the market meet the Energy Star Standard of 3.5 gallons per cycle So we're already meeting half the standard and yet they act like its impossible to be at the point we're already at. I don't personally care too much about these rules, but this article is a bunch of nonsense. Even from their economic side of hurting consumers, they openly state it'll save >$600M in costs while only costing $125M to implement. So they're arguing against saving almost $500M in energy and water costs for consumers, not arguing that things will ultimately cost more. This article written by the energy industry is literally trying to convince us we should spend $500M in extra energy costs, and you're eating it right up. If that whole $125M was done in just the first year of dishwashers sold in only the US market it increases the price of a several hundred dollar appliance by $15. Just the water saving costs alone is estimated at $30/unit, then an additional $7+/year in energy savings. If the thing only lives 5 years (dismal outlook, but lets use it) its saving consumers $65, 65 - 15 = a positive number, aka it will save consumers money, even if they're poor.
• zameerb1 3y ago
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• sneak 3y ago
  Where can I get black market dishwashers that use three times as much energy and water for my new build? I've already manually removed all of the flow reducer bottlenecks in my showerheads. If you want me to use less water or power, tax it more, don't render my appliances nonfunctional. Alternately, heavily tax the inefficient machines so they aren't cost effective for normal consumers/builders. I really hate how poorly modern appliances work.
  • fortran77 3y ago
    When I had my bathroom redone, the contractor offered to set me up with an "illegal toilet" smuggled in from Mexico that uses more water per flush.
    • bradknowles 3y ago
      Better quality toilets from Toto and other well-regarded brands can do so much more, with so much less water. You just need to be willing to spend the money on the better brand equipment.
      • Dylan16807 3y ago
        It's a piece of ceramic, why do you need a better brand to work right?
        • bunabhucan 3y ago
          They make ones that "store" house tap pressure water and can flush with more force.
        • bradknowles 3y ago
          With improved (and patented) design, they can flush much better. And they have better coatings on the ceramic, so that your "output" washes off much easier, and doesn't stick to the walls so easily. The modern tests for toilets are much tougher than the old tests, and the best modern toilets will pass with flying colors on those tougher modern tests. Older toilets, and lesser quality toilets, can't hold a candle to the kind of performance you are able to get with the better and more modern toilets. Toto is just one example. They're not the only one with top performing toilets. You can look on Consumer Reports to see the tests they run, and which toilets do well on those tests.
• nntwozz 3y ago
  …and if your dishwasher door squeaks you can fix it like this: https://youtu.be/r_9AkGSj3FQ?si=jj0iB-pTYC5GZmSZ https://youtu.be/r_9AkGSj3FQ?si=jj0iB-pTYC5GZmSZ Here's a squeaky dishwasher door inside the most expensive ($250 million) and highest penthouse in the world (video at 8:40): https://youtu.be/aN9DH_GxqEo?feature=shared&t=521 https://youtu.be/aN9DH_GxqEo?feature=shared&t=521 Now that's comedy!
• ChumpGPT 3y ago
  Many commercial dishwashers run only 15 minutes and the dishes come out sparkling clean. Same with cloths washers, commercial units have small, medium and large settings with hot, warm, cold and that's all you need. They actual use more than a gallon of water but your cloths come out clean in 25 minutes. It's insane what has happened to residential household appliances. The only alternative is to spend the extra and by a low end commercial unit.
  • eru 3y ago
    Commercial dishwashers make different trade-offs. Eg they typically assume that you wash directly after eating. Domestic dishwashers deal with food that has been dried up and caked on for days. Many domestic dishwashers spend a lot of time at the end drying your dishes. Commercial ones seldom bother with that.
  • bradknowles 3y ago
    Commercial dishwashers depend on all the food being scraped off before they get fed. I know because I was the "dishwasher" in my school, and that's how I paid for my lunch. My job was to scrape off all the food and get the dishes visually clean, at which point I would load them into the tray and put the trays into the commercial dishwasher. The point of the commercial dishwasher is really to get the water super hot (steam, actually), and then sanitize the dishes after they've been cleaned.
• efitz 3y ago
  It boggles my mind that the federal government of the United States pays bureaucrats to write non-safety-related standards for home appliances (or anything else).
  • db48x 3y ago
    Yea, it’s weird. There's a whole segment of our population who strongly believe that only the government can fix problems, and that they they know which problems to fix and what the best solutions are. I’ll let you guess which political party they belong to.
  • TheBigSalad 3y ago
    Pure capitalism leaves no incentive to protect the environment.
  • actuallyalys 3y ago
    Appliances use a significant amount of resources. It’s a bit tricky to attribute gains to standards versus general technological progress and consumers being more aware of issues like climate change but the amount of energy saved by increased efficiency in appliances is significant. https://www.aceee.org/blog/2016/01/amazing-drop-home-appliance-energy https://www.aceee.org/blog/2016/01/amazing-drop-home-applian... https://www.vox.com/climate/2023/3/29/23588463/carter-efficiency-appliances-climate https://www.vox.com/climate/2023/3/29/23588463/carter-effici...
• leetrout 3y ago
  I just want my dishes to come out of my dishwasher without smelling like wet dog. We are combating this by only using vinegar in the rinse aid reservoir and dumping 2 cups in the bottom after unloading. At $1.50/gallon for vinegar its not a cost issue just a "why does it have to be like this" issue. We clean our filter monthly, too.
  • NotYourLawyer 3y ago
    That’s a bizarre problem. What do you think is causing it?
    • leetrout 3y ago
      Some kind of bacteria. We even bought a new Bosch thinking an upgrade might fix it.
      • NotYourLawyer 3y ago
        Are you on well water that has bacteria in it or something? What about running a cycle with a bunch of bleach to kill off everything?
        • eru 3y ago
          Setting the dishwasher to a hotter program might also be worth a try, if it's a biological problem.
          • leetrout 3y ago
            We always run the sanitize cycle
        • leetrout 3y ago
          Nope. City water. My mom in the next town over has the same issue.
    • modeless 3y ago
• john61 3y ago
  I bought a modern premium dishwasher a few years ago. The drying did not work very well, so I called the service. To my suprise only a few hours later a serviceman came plugged his laptop into the machine and prolonged the drying time and everything was perfect. The easiest solution for the manufacturer to get the A++ energy label for this machine was obviously to deliver a machine that does not dry and if someone complains just adjust it rapidily. This is green washing.
  • aaron695 3y ago
    > few hours later a serviceman came plugged his laptop into the machine and prolonged the drying time This is the interesting part of your story. Communicate Directly with Appliances for Real-Time Diagnostics - SmartHQ GE Appliance Service Tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu02_mvDQEI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu02_mvDQEI APK, probably... https://apkpure.com/smarthq-service-formerly-newf/com.geappliances.newfi20/ https://apkpure.com/smarthq-service-formerly-newf/com.geappl... Interesting idea re-flashing the firmware on your dishwasher or changing internal settings.
  • fnordpiglet 3y ago
    Is it greenwashing? The vast majority of people won’t complain to the manufacturer, they’ll just recognize it doesn’t dry very well. Although my understanding is drying cycles are longer than the actual run time. They heat up the ceramic and glass then turn off the heater and let the moisture evaporate. Opening the dish washer slightly and letting it sit for a while will usually completely dry the dishes.
  • AdamN 3y ago
    It's not green washing if it actually reduces electricity consumption. Anyway, Miele dishwashers use unheated air blown over the dishes to dry them with minimal cost if you choose the long cycle (i.e. overnight). Bosch doesn't have that feature but also dries ok if you open it up 10 minutes before emptying it. What brand did you have? One final tip though is that tupperware is a drying killer. The cheap plastic absorbs oils over time and creates a film that never really dries - making the whole dryer damp. Get rid of those and move to glass for a much better experience in every way.
• AlbertCory 3y ago
  A long time ago I took a cooking class, in a commercial kitchen. The Hobart washer took five minutes. Of course, it was bigger than a VW Beetle. Not exactly something for home use.
• bloomingeek 3y ago
  NEVER allow dishes in the dishwasher that haven't been wiped off, in any way you choose, into the garbage. (un-wiped dishes allow the food particles into your kitchen drain line where it will congeal. Over time it will trap water and rot out copper drain lines found in older homes.) Garbage disposals are nick named "plumbers gold" for the same reason above. Only use them to flush water down the sink drain before running the dishwasher, NOT for dicing up what comes off dirty plates. The kitchen drain line most likely runs below your living room floor in the concrete slab. It is very costly to have the carpet/tile removed and the slab sawed up to replace the line, usually with PVC.
  • helf 3y ago
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• helf 3y ago
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• tastysandwich 3y ago
  My understanding was that the regulations applied to a normal wash cycle, but that they don't prevent dishwashers from having additional modes that use more water/energy for a faster clean. My Bosch dishwasher is only a few years old. On normal mode, it takes 2 hours and 20 minutes. However it has a "Vario Speed" option which uses more water/energy, but performs the same clean in about an hour. We rarely use Vario Speed. The dishwasher gets stacked after dinner and set on a timer so that it runs overnight. But the option for a fast wash is much appreciated. One thing I'll say about wash quality is that the detergent matters. In Australia you can check out Choice's list [1]. We did find the Aldi Logix Platinum ones to be pretty good. https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwasher-detergent/review-and-compare/dishwasher-detergent https://www.choice.com.au/home-and-living/kitchen/dishwasher...
• xtracto 3y ago
  This thread is super interesting for me as a Mexican. I've never understood dishwashers: expensive machines you buy to wash dishes you've already had to wash in the sink. I pay a "human" dishwasher $20 dollars a day and she washes the dishes completely, dries them, puts them out, wahes and sorts clothing, mops and vacuums the floor, washes toilets and the backyard with the dogs' dirt. The wonders of cheap labour I guess
  • cbsmith 3y ago
    So after 30 days, you've spent more money than someone with a lower cost dishwasher, and as the article mentions, your dishes haven't been sanitized and had allergens removed. You've also used a lot more water. Yes, you have to put away the dishes yourself, but that still seems like a pretty good trade to me.
• kagevf 3y ago
  I have a dishwasher that seems to work fine, except that after it's done it's still filled with soap bubbles. The water has drained, but not the soap. Dishwasher repair person looked at it, suggested replacing the motor, but that didn't work. The repair person even called the manufacturer, but the manufacturer didn't know what was wrong either. I have no idea what the problem is ... for now, I've been washing in the sink and drying with a dish dryer from Japan (shokki kansouki).
  • winrid 3y ago
    Sounds like the soap is reacting with your water in a weird way.
    • kagevf 3y ago
      Possibly. I should also note that the problem started happening after about 4 years of usage. I live in a hard water area, but use a water softener. Maybe what you said is a clue, though, and I’ll see if I can find any information phrased in terms of soap reacting with water. Different variations of “soap doesn’t drain” hasn’t found me any hits, like I’m the only one having this issue.
• FredPret 3y ago
  I once lived in a condo with a crappy Ikea dishwasher. It did a poor job washing the dishes, made lots of noise, and the arm kept falling off. The fix for the poor washing was so simple: buy cheap Costco dish pods in bulk for CAD 10 (12-13 now) for around 100 pods and just jam two pods in there. Add rinse-aid and voila, sparkling dishes from cheap equipment. I once had a job as a commercial dishwasher, and those machines did the same thing in about a single minute. Of course the chemicals were harsh and the temperature was high.
• thiht 3y ago
  I don’t understand how this is a problem that I don’t have. I bought a new dishwasher like 2 months ago and it’s the best I’ve ever had. The eco mode works great. A few times I’ve had very greasy pans so I switched to the 60°C mode instead and it’s great. My dishes are very clean. Do y’all use the correct amount of detergent? Regenerating salts, with the correct setting ? Rinsing fluid? Do you correctly put the detergent in the trap and not directly in the dishwasher? (I’ve seen tons of people do that, of course it doesn’t work, all the detergent is used in the prewash) Do you organize it correctly? If so there’s no reason for a dishwasher to not do it’s job.
  • 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    same here. i'd assume it boils down to common sense which some folks are blessed with while others lake in this department. if you place your stuff keeping in mind where the water comes from, don't wait with washing until food is surface dried and remove excessive grease and fat before hand then results should be fine. also there is a place to put salt and rinse aid for a reason if it isn't provided by the tab.
  • themoose8 3y ago
    The article is from 2020, maybe the regulation has come into effect.
  • leoedin 3y ago
    I live in the UK, so our appliance standards are different. However, I just looked at my current dishwasher - it uses 0.85 kWh/cycle and 11.5L per cycle. I think the assumption in the US is 215 cycles a year - so that means 183 kWh/year and 3 gallons / cycle. That seems to be less than this limit. And, it's totally fine? It cleans dishes. It takes a few hours - but then it's pretty rare I need all my dishes immediately anyway. I've got enough so even if it's full there's a glass or a plate available. I use the all in one tablets - it has a special tablet mode that opens the door pretty much immediately. I never pre-rinse plates. I think I clean the filters every 3-6 months under the kitchen tap. Takes about 2 minutes. This article seems to be conservatism (in the sense of "change is bad") for the sake of it.
  • mrweasel 3y ago
• kimi 3y ago
  I have a Bosch dishwasher, try and remove pieces of food left on the dishes, and use those multi-coloured pods. Its "eco" cycle (the shortest) is just 45' and dishes come out squeak clean.
  • dagw 3y ago
    Its "eco" cycle (the shortest) Funny, on my dishwasher the "eco" cycle is the longest cycle
• perryizgr8 3y ago
  Amazing how much taxpayer money is spent on the minutiae of dishwasher temperature and duration. You'd think the behemoth that is the Federal government had more important stuff to worry about.
• drzaiusx11 3y ago
  After going through 3 typical dishwashers in less than that many years, I decided to try a high end one to see if was any different. I researched and Bosch and Miele seemed to be rated high for reliability. I picked Miele 5 years ago and damn, this thing is a tank. I do 2 loads a day and it cleans as well as the first day I bought it still.
  • deleted 3y ago
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  • peepee1982 3y ago
    Don't know about dishwashers. But I recently tried to repair a washing machine from LG and in the process learned that Miele machines are considered to be very reliable and fixable.
  • drzaiusx11 3y ago
    Not sure what failure modes other folks encounter, but the pumps on my LG, whirlpool and Samsung all died <1yr. Not only that, none of them actually cleaned after the first week or so, instead they just did a poor rinse job and then baked whatever residue was still there onto the dish surface.
• JanNash 3y ago
  Well, I lick most of my plates clean, our small washer takes 3 and a half hours and everything is cleaned just fine. EU citizen here :)
• whalesalad 3y ago
  I think Bosch makes the best dishwasher money can buy right now.
• anarticle 3y ago
  I rented a few places that had dishwashers and boy did they vary. Good to read that I'm not completely crazy! My anecdata: - whirlpool gold with macerator (pre-2012!), absolute destroyer of any and all food waste. - bosch (2010esque), no macerator, but great cleaner - samsung (2015) might as well call it dish unwasher, made a nice drying rack - kitchenaid (mid-2010s) generally great, filter thing sucks (have to keep it washed) and no macerator makes it get a little dirty, but dishes are clean. If you can even get it, the macerator seems like the way to go for brainless rinse free dish washing. I imagine it's not offered anymore or something under the guise of energy saving. My galpal has a frigidaire from early 2000s that is so loud it sounds like it is grinding the plates into dust. They come out squeaky clean and so hot you can't touch anything for the first 10 minutes after a cycle. Dishwashers are excellent time saver, bring on the innovation!
• nemacol 3y ago
  Anyone know of a dishwasher with serviceable sprayers? The one I have now the sprayers are single piece and cleaning them out is a real task. One of them I ended up splitting open and have modified with threaded inserts to be able to reassemble it.
• AndyMcConachie 3y ago
  I've used a dishwasher since the 1980's and in my eyes they have only gotten better. I find dishwashers to be one of the most amazing, labor saving and environmentally friendly advancements of modernity. I love dishwashers. More specifically, with the earlier dishwashers I had to really scrub the dishes before I put them in. This is still important as I don't like getting leftover cat food on my coffee mugs, but the extent I have to do it is significantly less. Nowadays I scrape my plates into the trash and just put them in the dishwasher. Whereas for the first dishwasher my parents had in the 1980's you really had to scrub dishes clean before loading them. They've only gotten better in my experience. I really don't understand what this article is complaining about?
• wolverine876 3y ago
  > modern dishwashers don’t clean dishes or cutlery well. Such is not surprising when hand dishwashing relies largely on physical scrubbing to remove food particles, the machine version relies on spraying hot water and heat, such that less water and less heat produce less cleaning over a longer period of time. That isn't my experience at all. Modern dishwashers are a miracle; I put in dishes without touching them, and they come out clean. Also, the dishwashers use three forms forms of energy to separate dirt from surfaces: 'Kinetic' (the water), chemical (soap), heat (which of course catalyzes chemistry). A lot of this article is just partisan stuff: Competitive Enterprise Institute, anti-regulation rants, "environmental zealots", etc., and of course 'Great Again'.
• jrm4 3y ago
  This is painfully whiny. Look, the government has to regulate things and it's sometimes going to be clumsy. If this particular thing bothers you, that's fine. But it's childish to use the tone of "the gubment hates mah freedom" here - ESPECIALLY for us, in a time where more regulation of e.g. tech and cybersecurity would likely be a good thing.
• giantg2 3y ago
  Faster times would be good. I feel like dishes still being dirty has other factors involved. Many people (my wife) load the dishwasher in an ineffective way. At least for my model, most of the cleaning comes from the center spray arm. Load bowls on the bottom rack and you'll end up full of water or not cleaned. Load the pot like standing up on the bottom rack and the arm will hit it and stuff will not get clean (and you might break the arm). Prewash your dishes and the turbidity sensor won't work right and you'll be left with either dirt or detergent on your dishes. And don't get me started on the unrelated topics of loading in wooden utensil, sharp knives, etc. Load it right and put it on the right settings and they get clean (and out of frustration my wife will accuse me of prewashing to get them clean). It's not as simple as just piling in the dishes, like some people think it is.
• onewheeltom 3y ago
  My Bosch dishwasher works well on the 1 hour Speed 60 cycle. The occasional fork or knife that is left with a little debris is not worth the trouble to use the 2:30 cycle
• brightlancer 3y ago
  The Biden administration reversed this liberalization in 2022, and is now trying to make it tighter than it was pre-Trump. "The efficiency levels proposed in today’s rule reflect that there are models available today that can meet improved energy and water standards, while providing the cleaning performance that consumers expect from their dishwashers. The new proposal builds upon the groundwork laid by DOE’s test procedure final rule that was published on January 18, 2023, which ensures consumer expectations for cleaning continue to be met with increased energy and water efficiency. "If adopted within DOE’s proposed timeframe, the new rule for dishwashers will come into effect in 2027. DOE expects the new rule to save consumers nearly $3 billion in utility bill savings over the ensuing 30 years of shipments and reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 12.5 million metric tons—an amount roughly equivalent to the combined annual emissions of 1.6 million homes. DOE also expects the new rule to save 240 billion gallons of water, which is equivalent to the water in 360,000 Olympic-sized pools." https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-efficiency-rules-save-americans-more-650-million-annual-energy-and-water https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-efficiency-rul... ---- From 2022: "The Biden administration this week reversed a Trump-era rule exempting quick dishwashers, as well as clothes washers and dryers, from efficiency regulations. "A rule issued Wednesday cuts two Trump rules that created separate product categories for dishwashers that took 60 minutes or fewer per cycle, certain clothes washers or dryers that took less than 30 minutes and other washers that took less than 45 minutes." https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/589555-biden-nixes-trumps-efficiency-loophole-for-quick-dishwashers/ https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/589555-biden-n...
• luckystarr 3y ago
  My dishes already stink after going through the dish washer whenever I had food with eggs on plates or pans. Adding sodium bicarbonate to the detergent compartment seems to do the trick though.
• dahwolf 3y ago
  This is simply the American take on dishwashers. It should be done in 5 minutes, make no noise, be enormous in size, and I'll load it up with 2 items multiple times per day. Energy use be damned.
• kn100 3y ago
  This whole article reminds me of the absolute nonsense surrounding the EU regulating vacuum cleaner power levels. In the UK, it was not uncommon to see vacuum cleaners rated as high as 2400w (!) prior to the introduction of the regulation. Of course, when the regulation came to power those rock bottom crappy cheap vacuums one could buy suddenly got much worse as they were forced to limit power usage to 1kW. Well, as far as I can tell, most any vacuum cleaner today at virtually any price range does a reasonably decent job on 800w or less, and the regulation was a huge success in preventing ludicrous inefficient designs from finding their way to market. I bring this up because this was actually a talking point during Brexit, and the excitement that Finally! Brits would be able to buy good vacuum cleaners again now they'd left that pesky EU. I've got no idea of the status of that particular regulation today, but I know that I haven't heard a single person mention it since the days of the Brexit vote. Power ratings don't correspond to performance if the world irrationally decides that higher power means better. If the low end landlord special dishwashers can't make do on 1500w, then perhaps they just shouldn't exist. My landlord special cheapo dishwasher here in Canada however does a completely fine job using the cheapest powder I can get at the supermarket, as long as I load it properly, and haven't absolutely burnt the shit out of something in a pan.