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EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

• lozenge 3y ago
  The article appears to be based on nothing.
• silon42 3y ago
  But Apple is trying to do a useful thing -- guarantee availability of slow charging cables...
  • garganzol 3y ago
    Are "slow" charging cables more preferential to keep a better battery health?
    • ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
      No.
• atoav 3y ago
  Quite frankly I've never had issues with a charger being too slow. My fairphone with some random 3rd party charger isnfull in half an hour. From a durability standpoint your battery should last longer if you charge it slower, so unless your life is totally nomadic and you only got 10 minutes to charge your phone inbetween changing places I don't see any real damage been done here. The advantage of being able to ask a non-apple friend for a cable you forgot or broke outweighs any alleged slower charging speeds by magnitudes.
• Lapalux 3y ago
  I don't understand why Apple are dragging their heels on this so much
  • withinboredom 3y ago
    Money.
    • andyjohnson0 3y ago
      Apple can easily afford this. The real reasons for their foot-dragging are their need to differentiate their products, and their need (driven by their organisational culture) to feel that they are in control.
      • pipodeclown 3y ago
        What he means is, having a proprietary connector means they can milk accessory makers with licensing fees.
        • Gigachad 3y ago
          What accessory makers? The only thing lightning is used for these days is charging. I can’t imagine that charging cables is a huge money spinner for apple.
          • withinboredom 3y ago
            Here's a few accessories I can think of: - headphones - displays - "gas station" chargers (for when you leave yours at home and just need something cheap) - memory card readers These are just the ones I own.
            • Gigachad 3y ago
              Other than charging cables, none of those are the average person uses on an iphone. The ipads now all use usb c. I cant imagine Apple would be risking huge fines for the EU for the 10 people who plug SD cards in to their phone.
          • sschueller 3y ago
• nachteilig 3y ago
  I would basically never assume that the EU actually understand the technical parts of these regulations. On its face it sounds pro-consumer, but USB-C is hardly a unified experience and I am almost sympathetic with Apple here from a user experience perspective.
  • have_faith 3y ago
    Can you elaborate?
    • kweingar 3y ago
      To be clear, I am pro USB-C, but I do get the arguments from the other side. If I have a lightning cable and a device with a lightning port, I can plug it in and not really think much about it. If I have a device with a USB-C port and a USB-C cable, I have no idea whether I can charge at full speed or even charge at all. As an example, I plug my Xbox controller into my PC via USB-C. It keeps it fully charged. Recently I tried to plug in my USB-C headset into the same cable and it didn’t charge at all. In fact my headset died shortly after I unplugged it (after “charging” it all night), which was a bit of a pain. Turns out it can charge with my laptop charger or my iPad charger but not the Xbox cable plugged into my PC. Maybe this isn’t a totally fair comparison, but it’s my personal experience.
      • henearkr 3y ago
        With the same Xbox cable but with a proper charger, does it work? Most of the time, you avoid problems of "PD device hierarchy" by using a proper charger (i.e. a device that only has the functionality to charge other devices).
        • kweingar 3y ago
          Using the Xbox controller cable with an actual charger does work. The confusion came with how the PC delivers power to the controller but not the headset. It’s ultimately not a big deal, and it’s surely something I can learn to intuit. But I think lots of consumers (I think about my poor mother) would benefit from a clearer labeling scheme on the various devices, ports, chargers, or cables.
• manuel_w 3y ago
  The EU stance and strictness on this is one of the things making me happy to be an EU citizen.
  • echelon 3y ago
    Thank you for this! Next up: make "side loading" apps a thing. Do it with these stipulations: 1. Make it easy, part of the normal flow. Not hidden in an obscure panel or behind three or four dialogues. 2. Make it non-scary (no negs from Apple saying you'll destroy your device or safety) 3. Make it so it isn't called something negative like "side loading", but a part of normal user behavior: "download app", "web install", etc. 4. Make it so that Apple can't degrade the app experience for these apps. If y'all can accomplish that, all will be right with the world again.
    • meindnoch 3y ago
      How about you simply buying something else instead of an iPhone?
      • mmmmmbop 3y ago
        Since this will be required by the DMA as mentioned in another comment, the more accurate phrasing would be "How about Apple simply not selling their phones in the EU (if they don't like it)?" Just like nobody's forcing a consumer to buy an iPhone if they don't like it, nobody's forcing Apple to do business in the EU.
        • Longhanks 3y ago
          God, sometimes I really wish they would do just that. Just a week ago, Germany launched a public transport ticket that can only be acquired via an app. Imagine the outrage if suddenly every iOS owner could not use that service (paid with tax money of course) that entirely depends on US software services because the companies decided the EU bullying is just enough for now (just like Google did with China). If the EU wants to "boss around" like they do in this headline, maybe it should ensure having actual EU businesses capable of competing with US ones. But more regulation will surely do it, I’m sure, this time.
• riedel 3y ago
  Good chance for apple to try to repeat dieselgate: only charge fast while tested. Circumventing EU regulations is clearly a business opportunity, while all small competitors suffer from them. Only bad luck, that they are an US company and thus nobody is willing to look away. Sincerely, I am really skeptical about all those EU regulations with such a clear enforcement deficit. I really wish the commission luck on this one.
  • flopriore 3y ago
    Honestly I don't see how a dieselgate-like situation may be possible. Automakers could bypass the law because no one measures their own car's emissions. In this case, instead, people would take 30 seconds to realize their third-party cable doesn't work with their iPhone because of Apple.
    • adev_ 3y ago
      Also because in case of the Diesel gate, the constructors literally did the law since it was design by consortium and constructors lobbies were involve. I hope the EU got vaccinated against this kind of practices. If not, they should also look to what the FAA+boeing certified by consortium did with the 737 MAX and then get vaccinated definitively.
• bartread 3y ago
  I recently bought an Apple TV. It's a great device, but comes with a remote that's USB-C charged. That's fine except that it doesn't come with a USB-C cable, nor does the device have a USB port that could be used for charging the remote. So I ended up having to buy a third party USB charger and cable (I just don't have that much USB-C stuff laying around). That pissed me off and I wasn't shy about, politely, letting the staff in the Apple Store know it - to be fair, they agreed with me it was ridiculous. I can't overstate how much I dislike it when I buy a consumer device and everything I need to operate said device isn't included in the box. With that being said, the EU can fuck right off with this USB-C insistence. I've been using iPhones for 13 years now personally, and for 6 years with work. I have lightning cables coming out of my ears (a mixture of first and third party). Charging devices up with a lightning cable is incredibly convenient, and especially since I have USB connectors in many of the power sockets around my house. All of that is rendered useless because of the EU's loathsome meddling. (I am generally an EU fan, but live in the UK which of course is no longer part of the EU. I can't say I'm at all happy about that but what I'm even less happy about is that even though we could potentially go a different route here, and a better route for people already in the Apple ecosystem who have the necessary accessories, Apple will no doubt consider it easier to supply EU compliant iPhones in the UK, for which I can't really blame them, but I'll gladly shake my fist at Brussels over it.)
  • capableweb 3y ago
    So you're mad that the regulation doesn't personally take your specific situation into account? Could you maybe see or understand that maybe the regulation is a bit more "big picture" than specific individuals needs, like society at large?
    • bartread 3y ago
      > So you're mad that the regulation doesn't personally take your specific situation into account? There are millions of iPhone users in the UK. It seems unlikely that I'm the only one with a bunch of soon to be useless cables.
      • 3y ago
• sjaak 3y ago
  “Owing to the significant amounts of electronic waste caused by unused chargers …” Really?
  • thedrbrian 3y ago
    Well they are going to force people to bin all their lightning cables for this new one.
    • withinboredom 3y ago
      Thank the gods. I have exactly three of these things and keeping track of them is a pita, and expensive to replace. USB-C cables ... I have an entire bin of them.
    • whywhywhywhy 3y ago
      Even within the apple ecosystem those things are annoying and a waste of space. I can charge my laptop you can charge an iPad from USBC but phones and AirPods need lightning when the port is basically the same size. So I have to carry an extra cable everywhere. Ridiculous. I’ll take throwing them all in a landfill if I never have to use or see one again.
  • kstenerud 3y ago
    Yes, really. I still have a box full of old transformers kicking around from the bad old days. Now about half of my stuff is USB-C powered, and in another 5 years when I finally ditch the last of my old stuff I won't need a bunch of 5, 9, 12, and 15 volt power connectors (some AC, some DC) with 0.5, 0.8, 1, 1.5, 2, and 3 amp capabilities, in three different barrel connector sizes and two polarities. And of course Apple's connectors and HP and Lenovo's custom laptop connectors.
    • tinus_hn 3y ago
      Apple doesn’t use ‘Apple connectors’ on the phone chargers, they are universal USB adapters.
• oger 3y ago
  First of all: the EU definitely had good intentions when regulating the charger mess. The amount of incompatible chargers rotting in drawers and (possibly) landfills could definitely be reduced over time by agreeing on a common physical and electrical interface. However — limiting technical progress is not a good idea and we see that with the plethor of different power modes existing within USB-C. Possibly politicians only saw the physical plug but never understood the depth behind it. And that’s where we reach the limits. What if a company (Apple) comes up with a more efficient but also more elaborate way to quick charge their equipment? How would you handle a situation where non-compliant chargers could even harm this equipment? USB-C already is way too complex for the average Shenzen cookie cutter factory to implement it correctly. How would you protect your customers from such a situation? While it may superficially look evasive I am willing to pick Apple‘s side here.
  • alpaca128 3y ago
    > limiting technical progress is not a good idea If Apple is limited by USB-C then why do all their other current devices - where the EU never forced anything - use primarily (sometimes exclusively) USB-C?
  • henearkr 3y ago
    What technical progress. Don't you think that 20V and 240W that are the maximum for Power Delivery are enough to fast charge a smartphone? Even laptops use it!
    • f1shy 3y ago
      Of course! 640kB will be enough for everyone!
      • henearkr 3y ago
        Do you realize your parallel doesn't apply here? We're speaking about an iPhone, not a fridge nor a car.
        • 3y ago
• devinprater 3y ago
  Lol and a lot of Apple's charging cables are Lightning to USB C now. I can't wait to get a USB C iPhone. All my stuff is USB C, from my Braille display to my game controllers. It'll make things so much easier to only need one kind of cable for everything.
  • willis936 3y ago
    I learned about an interesting corner case last week: devices that use USB-C physical connectors but have USB 2.0 PHY. You can get away with a much longer cable at that lower Baud rate, but that cable likely won't work for most USB-C devices.
    • gbil 3y ago
      True but many times helpful since that is the only way to get some relative cheap usb-c cables rated - and working -for 100W charging
    • crote 3y ago
      Some manufacturers have even introduced charging-only cables which don't even have the USB 2.0 wires. This isn't allowed by the specs, but that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone.
      • blep-arsh 3y ago
        I think it is allowed. The PD spec mentions requirements for charging-only cables, these can actually be certified, if I understand correctly. I also think it's not necessarily a bad thing since it minimizes the risk of 20 volts short circuiting into D+/D- lines of a sufficiently abused cable.
    • ianburrell 3y ago
      Most USB-C devices and cables are USB2. Most USB-C phones are USB2, and there are a lot more phones than there are laptops with USB3 USB-C. It is probably better to think of USB3 as extension that requires special, shorter cables. I like to think of them as charging cables and data cables. I probably have two USB3 USB-C cables for MacBooks (and I found one that is 6ft long) and dozen USB2 USB-C cables for charging phones and MacBooks.
• zhte415 3y ago
  https://www.techdirt.com/2006/12/19/china-to-mandate-standardized-phone-chargers/ https://www.techdirt.com/2006/12/19/china-to-mandate-standar... Welcome to 2005 when arguments about 'uniqueness' didn't hold and we got fungible chargers that could be used with multiple devices.
• raverbashing 3y ago
  I plug my USB-C Android phone into any USB-C charger (including monitors, etc) and it charges rapidly Apple can go F themselves if that won't be the case with the iPhone
  • viktorcode 3y ago
    Apple devices do exactly the same, and has been for many years. I charge my stuff with a third party chargers, all I need is a lightning cable.
    • red_trumpet 3y ago
      That's the point, you need an additional cable. I charge most of my stuff with my laptop cable: laptop, Smartphone, Ebook reader, portable speaker. Only my headphones are still in MicroUSB. As the laptop cable doesn't have an outgoing USB A/C port, I would have to carry an additional cable and charger if I had an iPhone.
      • sbuk 3y ago
        > That's the point, you need an additional cable. The humanity!
    • Jochim 3y ago
      IIRC not all apple devices charge with lightning cables. Even users entirely bought in to their ecosystem are forced to carry multiple types.
• bnktp 3y ago
  [flagged]
• christkv 3y ago
  The iPad already does usb c so there is no excuse
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
• acd 3y ago
  Apple many many dongles. Adapters to iphones, cable adapters to macbooks, cable adapters to 3.5 inch headphone jack, to hdmi. Too many Apples dongles exception. My dongle collection is larger than yours.
  • blurrybird 3y ago
    Then you're doing it wrong. I have never bought a dongle in my life, but I _have_ replaced cables with ??? to USB-C variants. - Micro USB to USB-C - HDMI to USB-C - DisplayPort to USB-C - Mini USB to USB-C (that was tough to find!) Literally everything plugs into my laptop natively without a dongle.
    • ghaff 3y ago
      Into my laptop, yes. Into the hubs coming off my laptop, no.
• rmm 3y ago
  I just realised I rarely plug a cable into my phone at all these days. Genuinely I think the last time I did was in a hire car that only had cable CarPlay. At my desk I got a wireless charger as well as my bed side. Data is over the cloud now etc Serious question how long until they drop the port full stop? Like what if they achieve serious wireless charging speeds And actually does anyone know if that’s allowed with these new regulations? Like what if the iPhone 16 they drop it entirely???
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • whywhywhywhy 3y ago
    >Serious question how long until they drop the port full stop? Probably in 2 years if it allows a loophole where a proprietary $100 charger works better than generic. Their stance on this issue has shown that dongleification design culture has won over user experience design culture within the Apple walls.
    • arlcode 3y ago
      If I recall correctly the EU explicitly and intentionally excempted wireless charging from this regulation. The argument was that this technology is not yet mature enough to standardize and should be allowed extra time to develop further. They remarked that in the future additional laws may be introduced if required. This was a clear warning directed at the industry (read Apple) to find a common solution for wireless charging without additional regulations. If they are unable to do so the EU is ready for round two.
      • philistine 3y ago
        I'm 100% convinced this is why Apple basically gave their Magsafe charging scheme to the Qi consortium. Magsafe and the next Qi standard which uses magnets are intercompatible.
  • TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
• blurrybird 3y ago
  As somebody who last night got an Apple stem out of their daughter's lightning port using a SIM card ejector tool, I'm torn. You can't do that (safely) with USB-C because of the female plug design.
  • Aardwolf 3y ago
    Then make this thing standard for everyone, whatever, just ensure there is one standard. This of course requires cooperation from the industry. P.s. I'm not actually advocating for making this standard, USB C has too much momentum and I don't think any Linux based device I use knows this other connector.
  • f_devd 3y ago
    You can clean USB-C the same way (I have before) but you need a needle or a very thin sim ejector
    • kaibiprime 3y ago
      Wouldn't a metallic pin increase risk for shorts inside the port? I personally use the toothpick end of flossing picks. They're usually very thin and the plastic material doesn't cause any hard abrasion.
      • f_devd 3y ago
        Normally that's correct except that the USB-C pinout is well designed to not put GND and VBUS near each other so it's pretty difficult to actually short anything. Still it's better to use something non-conductive.
    • Sammi 3y ago
      I cleaned my phone usb connector like this last week, after the charging cable wouldn't go in, because something was lodged in there. Just used a pin I found on the wall at work to scrape it out. No problem ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • ad133 3y ago
• taf2 3y ago
  What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. I imagine we're in uncharted territory given in less then my lifetime USB was invented and has gone through at least 14 iterations e.g. it's been changing very fast. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some, but I think it's an interesting question because unlike other things in history we're seeing such rapid iteration. Maybe the laws in the EU have accounted for this - it just seems like a short term good thing that could be not so great in a few years down the road... thoughts?
  • epolanski 3y ago
    The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. What EU wants to avoid is Apple giving "unfair" advantages to their own chargers (which could either come from Apple making better chargers or artificially slowing third party ones) defeating the purpose of having less electronic waste.
    • ewalk153 3y ago
      Like you point out, the “unfair[ness]” of making better chargers faster than the EU standard can keep pace threatens to revert to least common denominator experience in the name of less waste.
      • irdc 3y ago
        Not really: following public standards will never be seen as unfair. So a manufacturer merely implementing USB-PD 5.0, which allows for 2 megawatt via water-cooled copper, to fast-charge their devices is in the clear.
    • frankfrankfrank 3y ago
      I’m all for some kind of universality, but this authoritarian method does not strike me as a good idea. You lament their concern with fairness, by giving unfair advantages to the USB-C license holders/patent holders? I’m not even sure people understand that Apple also contributed heavily to the development of USB-C along with other companies, some of them European. The irony is that I believe the Lightning Connector, the iPhone connector, has been the longest standing standard connector (11 years now) and the introduction of the Qi “wireless charging” is also a good argument against this narrow sighted EU authoritarian/communist mentality that some apparatchiks can make better decisions than those who actually do and create things. Has someone actually asked Apple to lay out its reasons for not adopting the larger and bulkier USB-C? Could it be that it has something to do with trying to engage in economic warfare against Apple because it’s harder to compete?
• dwighttk 3y ago
  Who cares? I haven’t charged my phone through the port in years.
  • epolanski 3y ago
    People who charge through ports.
    • mehdix 3y ago
      I am one of them. Heck, I have even worked for a wireless charging startup for years :) Even though I own all sort of wireless charging gadgets, somehow prefer the definite result of connecting a cable compared to putting my phone on a surface and moving it a lil bit to make sure it work and is in/supports fast charging mode. I have of course cables all around me.
      • dwighttk 3y ago
        My wireless charger has magnets that align it and keep it aligned. I would also eschew finicky alignment based wireless charging.
  • garganzol 3y ago
    If you were somewhere in the woods, your would prefer to not waste the power from you solar energy source on heating the surroundings with EM radiation, so you would use a cable instead of a wireless charging. This is why the cable charging is here to stay and is not going anywhere.
  • hylaride 3y ago
    99% of my charging is overnight with the magnetic wireless charger and I love it. But it's slow. If you need to recharge more quickly, wired is significantly faster.
  • falcolas 3y ago
    FWIW, I’m not a huge fan of current wireless charging because of how inefficient the tech is. So much energy is wasted bridging the space between the coils. The evidence? The heat generated by the coils, which you can easily feel, especially with the higher wattage chargers. To me, that waste matters, since it’s something so easily eliminated with very little effort.
• pfoof 3y ago
  From experience I see that USB-C charger that was included with Pixel charges my SE 2021 via Lightning just as fast as original Apple charger, so why would they change anything (I mean the charging speed when switch over to USB-C)?
  • celsoazevedo 3y ago
    This is for faster speeds supported by newer/future phones. The SE 2021 (and iPhones in general) aren't that fast when compared to some alternatives that charge much larger batteries in 10-30 minutes. My phone (not Apple) goes up to 60W, for example. The speculation is that Apple will only allow their chargers or chargers they approve (and get paid for it) to charge future iPhones faster. This is the EU telling them not to do it. USB-PD is a standard (already used by Apple on laptops) and can do up to 240W. No need for proprietary chargers. Why would Apple do this? Money.
• perryizgr8 3y ago
  I don't understand the rationale. Does the EU not have a free market where consumers can choose what they pay for? If lightning connector is an important enough issue for someone they can choose not to buy an iPhone. There are n number of alternatives available in the market, unlike the software ecosystem situation.
  • DJHenk 3y ago
    Having lots of alternatives is not always beneficial for society as a whole.
    • scarface74 3y ago
      Yes, the EU should come up with “5 Year Plans” for everything…
    • perryizgr8 3y ago
      Why not? I'm surprised to read this assertion. In any market, I don't see how greater diversity of choice can be a bad thing.
    • troad 3y ago
      > Having lots of alternatives is not always beneficial for society as a whole. A European sentiment if I've ever heard one. I'm pleased that Brussels has cracked the case of what the Greater Good is, and what sacrifices we must all (mandatorily) make in pursuit of it. I'll let Plato know, I'm sure he'll be thrilled.
  • Moldoteck 3y ago
    You know, there is a word, called standard and govs sometimes mandate those standards to help consumers...
    • perryizgr8 3y ago
      I'm all for standards bodies. But government should not force anybody to follow a particular one. It's not like apple is advertising USB C and not delivering it. If lightning is so inferior to USB C, consumers will vote with their money and iPhones will either die out or apple will start offering it with USB C. The fact is that it hardly matters. This is a non issue for most users. But due to some bureaucrats who have sold zero dollars worth of high tech products, Apple (a trillion dollar company who knows a thing or two about business and technology) has to modify their offering.
• can16358p 3y ago
  "You have to use my designated charge port on your own device with your own adapter and change your own designs for that if you want to sell your device. We don't care if it's a step backwards in terms of design and internal space where every cubic millimeter is utilized." Not to defend Apple or anything but EU is being the mafia here.
  • bantunes 3y ago
    The early 2000s were a mess with company-specific cables and USB was forced upon them and made things much simpler, Apple is just the last holdout. Forcing 3rd-party manufacturers to buy chips from them for their devices to work with Apple phones feels like the real protection racket to me.
    • MichaelZuo 3y ago
      The parent has a point, the regulation is forcing a slightly smaller battery, slightly less durable connector, much more expensive repairs when the port stem breaks, etc. For devices that doesn't need the extra capabilities.
      • Jochim 3y ago
        People keep repeating this but how frequently do USB C ports actually break? Anecdotally, I had horrendous issues with mini USB but I've never had a micro USB or USB C port break. I'm not particularly gentle with them either, I've had the female end come out of the cable boot/snap off and the cable stop working due to strain on the boot. I don't know anyone who has experienced this personally and I can't recall seeing any anecdotes of it actually occurring in the HN threads where it's brought up.
        • MichaelZuo 3y ago
          > People keep repeating this but how frequently do USB C ports actually break? Even if the real rate was only 1 in a thousand devices, that's still a serious burden for the unlucky few. Whereas for lightning connectors, it's trivial to dislodge.
• sethd 3y ago
  I really hope Apple keeps lightning and just includes a dongle for phones sold in the EU.
  • Puts 3y ago
    Would be interesting if you could elaborate on why you prefer lightning?
    • sethd 3y ago
      It’s easier to connect without looking (driving while keeping eyes on road or in the dark). Feels more robust (as others mention), it’s harder to break the lightning connector on the phone side (where it matters and costs the most).
  • Moldoteck 3y ago
    That's not what the law mandates)
• Sakos 3y ago
  [flagged]
  • ZekeSulastin 3y ago
    Are we reading the same HN?
    • Sakos 3y ago
      Yes, you're just part of the group that agrees with them, so you don't recognize it.
      • dang 3y ago
        Exactly! and the opposite group works exactly the same way: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20notice%20dislike&sort=byDate&type=story&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870
• elzbardico 3y ago
  This is definitely not good news for iPhone users. The thing with lightning is that it is fucking robust. USB-C may not be as bad as the micro-USB but it is still more fragile than lightning. People should be able to choose, if you love One Connector To Rule’em all just get and Android phone.
  • fafzv 3y ago
    [flagged]
  • arlcode 3y ago
    Maybe to put you mind a little bit at ease anecdotally, I never had a USB-c plug or socket fail on me even with intense (ab)use. The same is true for my immediate family It probably happens though. I had cheap-o cables break but this is hardly the fault of usb-c
    • dist-epoch 3y ago
      > I had cheap-o cables break USB-C is supposedly designed in such a way that the (cheap) cable is more likely to break, not the (expensive) port.
      • falcolas 3y ago
        It is. The springs which hold the cable in are in the plug, whereas they are in the socket for lighting. These springs are effectively consumable components.
  • tankenmate 3y ago
    My personal experience is just the opposite; I have a number of children (more than the average number of kids), and I replace lightning cables more frequently than USB-C cables. And I do buy both Apple lightning cables and 3rd party ones. In my experience the cable case between the cable and the metallic connector tends to crack and degrade faster than USB-C equivalents. And the USB-C cables tend to be cheaper too.
  • 3y ago
• throwawayxxdd 3y ago
  [flagged]
• sitkack 3y ago
  USB-C could have used the lightening but we can thank Apple for that. USB should have never existed, it was a scam by Intel (and Microsoft) to put the PC at the center of everything. In a non-dumb world, we would be using Firewire over something like a lightening connector. Jobs was too greedy with Firewire for it to be successful.
  • scarface74 3y ago
    You know that FireWire was a Sony standard right?
    • deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    • sitkack 3y ago
      Looks like it was lead by Apple with considerable input by Sony. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_1394
      • scarface74 3y ago
        And there are 10 different patent holders according to the article and Sony had the most
        • sitkack 3y ago
          None of that changes my argument, and Apple was in control of FireWire.
          • scarface74 3y ago
            How was Apple in control when it only had 48 of the 220+ patents? That’s not how patent pools work. Sony shipped computers with FireWire for years and I had an old Dell from 2012 with FireWire.
• blitz_skull 3y ago
  Okay, ELI5—why does the EU care so damn badly about a charging cable providing the same speed no matter who manufactures it?
  • micwag 3y ago
    Say Samsung releases a new TV that has a HDMI 2.1 Port that support crisp 4K HDR, but only if you use a Samsung certified cable. If you use a third party HMDI 2.1 cable your resolution drops to SD DESPITE the HMDI 2.1 Standard supporting 4K HDR.
  • mardifoufs 3y ago
    Hint: it's because Apple isn't a European corporation.
• OptionX 3y ago
  Why does Apple even care? They don't add chargers with their phones anyway. And overcharging for a regular usb-c charger with a Apple logo on it seems to be quite in their wheelhouse.
  • mmmmmbop 3y ago
    Public stance: To protect their users from the confusing variety of USB-C cables. Internal stance: Huge margins on overpriced USB-C cables that customers must buy to get the fast charging speeds.
    • sircastor 3y ago
      We’re still just a few of years past USB-C cables that were physically destroying hardware. It’s annoying, but I appreciate the effort to protect their reputation against shoddy products.
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • reustle 3y ago
    They get huge licensing fees for all of the approved lightning cables and devices out there.
• bitL 3y ago
  Are USB-C ports still going to be limited to USB 2 speeds on iPhone 15?
  • gorbypark 3y ago
    My guess is yes and only the Pro phones will have USB 3 speeds.
• dbg31415 3y ago
  Terrifying to give government this much control over tech. If Apple wants to build a premium experience that is better than USB-C then what? They can’t? We essentially gave W3C control over web accessibly and they can’t even release a new set of WCAG standards. Stalled and seems to be dead in committee. Keep in mind the EU doesn’t even have a standard power outlet. This is just the EU being petty and bullying an American company. Government is not the place for tech requirements.
  • bad_good_guy 3y ago
    A stark warning for the effects of neoliberalism on a human mind.
  • Moldoteck 3y ago
    Apple can include both usbc and that superior port and let people choose))) truth is usbc is already superior, it has been for years and I don't really understand frp what you'll need in a phone a port that should do more than 240w of energy transfer and ~40gbs of data transfer. And at last, the eu law can be adapted if industry agrees to a new port...
    • dbg31415 3y ago
      Talking a year from now. Or 5. How does anyone advance? People will stop trying, USB-C is just the mandate. Why spend money building alternatives? It’s adding a barrier to tech that shouldn’t be there.
      • Moldoteck 3y ago
        This law basically targets Apple for not using type c, but it doesn't say it directly. All brands, including apple invested in type c and they got a good port but didn't use it. People will continue innovation just like before because law allows revising the standard so that all brands just like before will will choose the next standard. But imo there is no need for another standard for phones. I don't know if there is a phone that uses all potential of current usbc (240w and 40gbs) and it's not like port can't handle more...
• RivieraKid 3y ago
  I don't understand why USB-C doesn't use the Lightning form factor, which is clearly superior. It's smaller, simpler and more resistant to damage.
  • ohgodplsno 3y ago
    Mostly because Apple refuses to license anything that has to do with Lightning to the USB Consortium.
  • justapassenger 3y ago
    Any data on it being more resistant to damage? From my anecdotal experience lighting connectors break more often.
  • geuis 3y ago
    > more resistant to damage In what way? Every single lighting cable I've had since the switch was done years ago is unusable after a few months. The same pin, 4th from the left, wears out after a very short time. This has happened across owning multiple phones and iPads. I've lost count of the number of cables I've bought from either Apple or a 3rd party. I see the exact same damage on other people's cables frequently. I'm honestly surprised there hasn't been a class action lawsuit against Apple about this.
    • muxamilian 3y ago
      Yes, that's super annoying. However, it's easily fixable: One can rub the black stuff off the pin using a regular rubber and it usually works again
  • Kuinox 3y ago
    Lightning form factor have a lot of disadvantage. It already has problem with the exposed pins, USBC has wayyyyy more pins, which need to be tinier, and would easily be damaged. Remember that apple contributed to the USB-C format, and prefer it for all their other products. In USB-C, all the pins are protected by the outer shell.
• lttlrck 3y ago
  Do you think Apple intended to stick with Lightning forever? They were just taking their own sweet time. The fact that their other products switched a couple of years ago should make this obvious. Of course the EU will crow when the next iPhone has USB-C worldwide. I doubt this has had a significant impact on Apples internal planning. If any. It seems to me this will be more significant post USB-C and it's much more difficult to predict how it will effect the market and innovation. And this particular topic (MFI) is based on rumour and speculation...
  • hn92726819 3y ago
    > do you think Apple intended to stick with Lightning forever? What?? Of course they did. Why do you think they are even considering USBC? Apple has zero incentive to use a common cable format; I'm sure they rake in money with their proprietary apple-only connectors. Look at magsafe. Changed it twice so everyone had to get a whole new set of chargers. Sure, they changed it to C now, but I'm guessing that's just because that's the direction the laptop market was going. Apple has no reason to switch their phones to C unless a government entity forces them to.
    • deleted 3y ago
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    • lttlrck 3y ago
      Apple want to stick to lightning forever? And they have no reason to switch unless a government entity forced them? Ha. Apples own customers complain quite loudly about the inconvenience about USB-C and Lightning, dongles etc. The inability to charge their phone with the same cable as their MacBook or iPads... they are providing a very un-Apple experience. They have an enormous customer base, using a legacy connector (which predates USB-C), to switch over as seamlessly as possible (in their own sweet time)
      • katbyte 3y ago
        I assumed they took their sweet time and waited for a Goverment to force them so that large customer base will be angry at the eu for having to buy new cables and throw out their old lightning socks and devices instead of apple
• outside1234 3y ago
  Looking forward to the iPhone E that has usbc and costs 150 euros more in Europe
• crazygringo 3y ago
  I'm confused. Either Apple is following the letter of the law or it isn't. I don't know what a "warning" from EU Industry Commissioner Thierry Breton is supposed to mean. Either the law says USB-C charging is required but doesn't say anything about charging speeds, or it does say something about charging speeds. In any case, Apple has a lot of lawyers and presumably they're following the law as written. I would assume the EU Industry Commissioner isn't able to make up new law by himself on the fly. So what exactly is his "warning" about?
  • tantalor 3y ago
    EU changes rules constantly
  • bmicraft 3y ago
    In Europe the intent of the law can after a whole lot more
    • plandis 3y ago
      If your legal system relies on reading the minds of lawmakers to infer their intent then your legal system is effectively arbitrary since those lawmakers can claim they intended anything.
      • Longhanks 3y ago
        Welcome to the EU, a legal system where nobody effectively elects anything and any major decisions are made without any democratic element whatsoever. Their attempt to ratify their behavior went so badly (in France and the Netherlands where actual popular votes were collected for an "EU constitution") that they just renamed the thing and did what they want anyway.
  • lelanthran 3y ago
    > So what exactly is his "warning" about? Not sure about this particular one, but in general, this sort of warning is along the lines of "If you continue expending effort in subverting the spirit of the law, we shall tighten the regulations to such an extent that it will hurt you". The world and their dog knew what the goal of the regulations were: if the goal is not met because "Apple has a lot of lawyers and presumably they're following the law as written." you can expect the law to be rewritten in a way that is punitive to Apple.
• ajmurmann 3y ago
  This whole thing is so silly. It also drastically reduces my confidence that I keep reading about "chargers". Nobody needs a separate charger. All that's needed is a cable that has a lightning tip. It doesn't even have to be a dedicated cable, it can be one with interchangeable tips or a separate adapter. If anyone is really concerned about wasteful production of chargers then ban selling chargers and maybe even cables bundled with devices. I know I have way more actual chargers than I need because they constantly come with new devices, not just phones. What's won by me now getting additional, superfluous USB-C cables instead of additional, superfluous lightning cables? In the 90s everyone in Europe was upset about the EU regulating bananas curvature. That regulating had been requested by the banana industry as a requirement for a shared market. So it somewhat (I'd still have preferred the market to figure this out itself) made sense. This "Lightning charger" stuff is the true bananas curvature.
  • episteme 3y ago
    I suppose the difference is that Apple don't have the monopoly on your charger?
    • ajmurmann 3y ago
      What does Apple have a monopoly on? None of my cables or chargers were made by Apple. My chargers have USB-C plugs over which Apple has no control. As my main point above was, lightning has nothing to do with chargers. Yet these articles keep complaining about chargers.
• aetherson 3y ago
  I think Apple should just make USB-C the norm for iPhones. But the idea that a trans-national government over 750M people should be trying to regulate in this level of detail is just obviously a recipe for disaster. For every one time they successfully push a company to do something correct -- but ultimately trivial, like this thing -- there are going to be 10 cases where some bureaucrat makes a bad decision and they're like fifteen steps removed from any kind of oversight, or where no uniform rule-making makes sense over the vastly diverse areas of the EU. Humanity is just not capable of making a bureaucracy of this size that makes decisions at this level of detail in a on-average-good way.
  • MagicMoonlight 3y ago
    >They're saying we can't put sawdust in bread, if they're that interested in a small product like that then what's to stop them banning lead in toys?
    • aetherson 3y ago
      If only there were some kind of distinction we could draw between health and toxicity regulation versus "which charger for your phone is better." I just can't think of what it could be.
  • hef19898 3y ago
    And now think about all the normed parts you encounter everyday: screws, material, plugs, tools, fuel... All of those stabdards have been enforced at one time. Including adminiszartive commitees, staffed mostly by industry (!), to revise them and keep them updated. Edit: One can make the case about the roman empire, and some really old civilization in India I am too lazy to look up, building quite impressive empires running on engineering and other stabdards across gigantic portions of thebthen known earth. That neother of those exists anymore is hardly the fault of those norms. Oh, nor to forget: measurement units.
    • NickBusey 3y ago
      Citation needed for the claim that governments enforce standards for screws. Maybe in the stuff they buy, but that’s not the same thing.
• abledon 3y ago
  So will there be 2 tiered iphone class system? EU phones are premiere tier, and rest is lower tier in terms of usability?
  • sircastor 3y ago
    Conversely, if Apple did this they might give the European product the “bare minimum” standard and continue to innovate and build proprietary solutions for their non-European products. The markets Apple cares most about right now are China and India.
• penguin_booze 3y ago
  You know what Apple should do? iPhones should charge only with Apple-certified electrons, conducted via Apple-certified copper atoms. Then check mate EU - that'll teach them.
• optimiz3 3y ago
  Fantastic! Now do power tool charging packs.
• mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Risk of fire due to all the counterfeit cables in the market.
• fyzix 3y ago
  Relying on Apple's discretion is futile. Craft an iron clad law with substantial consequences and be done with it.
  • Longhanks 3y ago
    And carry the consequences of crafting a law that Apple can fully comply with without issuing "warnings" about some politician's state of mind.
• zagrebian 3y ago
  > Apple no longer includes chargers in the box with iPhone purchases Is this true? So you buy a $1,000 device, but then the battery runs out, and you can’t use your $1,000 device unless you pay extra for a charger?
  • xmodem 3y ago
    It is true, and as someone who owns several boxes of cables that have literally never been used, and has sent several more to e-waste, I wish it was the norm.
  • sircastor 3y ago
    I think the outrage about this is a little overstated. Most people buying a $1000+ phone already have a wall brick of some sort. As well as a number of other devices to plug USB into. If you want the convenience of another brick or wireless charging, the option is there. As self-serving as it is for Apple, it is keeping more chargers out of landfills, and reducing the cost of shipping that extra weight.
• brundolf 3y ago
  I was going to upgrade my iPhone when the 14 came out, but when I found out about this I decided I could wait another year It's insulting that I can charge my MacBook and iPad with a USB-C cable, but still have to carry an extra cable just for my phone (and meanwhile my partner with an Android phone doesn't). I'm so excited to be done with all that
  • reustle 3y ago
    I wouldn't go as far as saying its "insulting", but agree that needing lightning for only my phone, magic keyboard, trackpad, and airpods, while everything else is using USB-C, is frustrating.
    • jasonm23 3y ago
      You're right, it's the pricing of genuine Apple cables which is insulting.
• gumby 3y ago
  Apple can defend itself, but that being said, I think the hype here is absurd: > which had led many – including us – to speculate that these Apple-produced chargers would enable faster charging speeds on the iPhone 15 than third-party chargers from other manufacturers. I believe the hysteria comes from a no-technical blogger not understanding the difference between the USB-C e-marker chip and MFI. Apple has nothing to gain by not using generic USB Power Delivery on phones as they do for all their other devices.* Whether the will pursue MFI for other standard devices (keyboards, whatnot) is indeed unclear, but past precedent (the mac, mainly, but also ipads, as well as their history with bluetooth devices) suggests it's unlikely. In fact network effects argue against it. Apple would rather sell a phone than a low margin accessory. So sure, such a thing is technically possible, but from a business perspective rather unlikely. Also I will buy an iphone 15 if it has USB C and will wait another year if not. * The 2016 "Macbook" used a nonstandard power profile but PD was updated shortly after that and subsequent Apple hardware has been strictly compliant. In fact going back to the iMac, the original mass market USB device, Apple's USB implementations have been very strictly compliant with that one notable exception.
  • charrondev 3y ago
    > Also I will buy an iphone 15 if it has USB C and will wait another year if not. I have a 13 and I’m in the same camp. Similarly I will buy a new pair of AirPods if they switch to USB-C. These 2 devices are the last devices I have that don’t charge with USB-C
    • gumby 3y ago
      I'm on a 12, but iphones last long enough (I jumped from a 6 to the 12) that I can wait longer unless I have a good reason not to. And like you, it's phone+ipods for me. If they don't upgrade both to type C I'll wait, since in that case I'll have to keep a lightning cable around.
  • ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
    The 85W Apple USB-C charger does not offer 15V, which is a violation of the spec.
• deleted 3y ago
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