38 ms·

As TikTok grows, so does suspicion

341 points by samizdis 4y ago

hunglee2 4y ago
excellent article, surprisingly nuanced and - I think - fair in its analysis. The main fear is not that it is a foreign owned app - after all, most people in the countries all over the world are using foreign owned (US) apps - it is because it is the first non-US app used by US citizens which unnerves both the US government and US commentariat. Whether those fears are justified or not, I suspect US will follow the China's vision of the internet, prioritise national security concerns over freedom of choice, and ultimately ban TikTok
- gravitate 4y ago
- curious_cat_163 4y ago
  I hope that the US doesn’t ban TikTok. That would be a very bad outcome for the concept of an open internet. I do think more regulation are likely in order. There are some very good arguments for not letting children under a certain age to be allowed on the social media platforms. However, the enforcement of those laws is spotty and is left to parental controls. What we need is an outbreak of social media literacy among the youngest members of society. Like, this needs to be taught at school in first grade or something.
  - mantas 4y ago
    Open internet is already dead. Now the question is if West defends or is it up for grabs for other countries that already built their own walled gardens.
  - yellow_postit 4y ago
    Long have primary education financial and internet literacy been proposed but the pessimist in me sees a low likelihood of US-nationwide adoption of either given the polarization. Ironically due to those exact same issues. This seems like a classic case that needs some more direct regulatory intervention.
  - lumost 4y ago
    This is effectively demanding an impossible solution to a present problem. Asking grade school children to weigh the geopolitical consequences of their cat videos is never going to happen. You’re talking about an age group which is still learning basic literacy. The solution is regulation, we already regulate children's television programming for this exact reason.
    - curious_cat_163 4y ago
      I don't see how we disagree. If by "present problem" you mean, the fact that TikTok happens to have been built by a Chinese company, then I see what you mean. Even still, for a democracy, the best protection against any potential threat is to prepare its citizens. In this case, the citizenry needs to be prepared cognitively. Arguably, it would help, if we started early -- get them while they are young? I don't see what other long-term things that a democracy can do. Other than starting a war in the near-term, I suppose?
      - nemothekid 4y ago
        >In this case, the citizenry needs to be prepared cognitively. This is such a pie in the sky suggestion that I'm forced to wonder if you even pay attention to US politics. To give you some context some of the biggest issues in education right now is: 1. Arming teachers with rifles 2. Dismantling the public school system and replacing them with vouchers. The last federally mandated educational solution, No Child Left Behind, was a massive failure and has soured most future federally mandated educational policies. Asking underfunded teachers to teach 9 year olds why they shouldn't use the "funny cat app" because of complex geopolitics will end up ignored at best or lead to incredibly xenophobia at worst (Ms. Adams told me not to use TikTok because China is evil, henceforth all asians are out to trick me). >I don't see what other long-term things that a democracy can do. Actually enforce data privacy laws universally. Of course this will anger the Facebook/Google trillion dollar oligarchs so we are told there is nothing we can do. The crux of the issue is that US wants everyone else data (EU, Oceania, Asia) but it doesn't want other companies to do the same. Your solutions are either you ban it for hegemony reasons, and pray that Europe/India/Japan/Australia doesn't enact the same law, or you ban it for privacy reasons.
  - hunglee2 4y ago
    same, I think the argument for open internet can only be made by example. However, there is no domestic political mileage in maintaining that position, vs plenty of political mileage in china bad policy making. He is out of office but we are in the trump timeline
  - OJFord 4y ago
    Is that not already technically the case? It certainly is/was in the UK. And I assure you everyone was using whatever they wanted, including e.g. eBay which probably has more stringently regulated rules. It's a lot easier to lie about your age on a Facebook sign-up form than to buy drugs or alcohol, and teens will find a way to do the latter if they want to.
  - aparticulate 4y ago
    >What we need is an outbreak of social media literacy among the youngest members of society. Like, this needs to be taught at school in first grade or something. I use TikTok loads and I'm completely onboard with the idea that it's extremely concerning for democracy. Nuanced education doesn't help any more than it would for say, healthy eating advocacy vs fast food industry. We need carrot and stick approaches.
    - stjohnswarts 4y ago
      Imagine getting downvoted for what you just said lol. HN people can't be so out of contact with children to think they will make complex political decisions. All they want to see are funny dance and cat videos. I remember when I was a tween and early teens. All I cared about was decent grades, baseball, my crush, and my computer side jobs. I wouldn't have cared if tiktok was based in Iran as long as it entertained me.
      - ramblenode 4y ago
        You are also describing most adults.
- alex_smart 4y ago
  >The main fear is not that it is a foreign owned app - after all, most people in the countries all over the world are using foreign owned (US) apps - it is because it is the first non-US app used by US citizens which unnerves both the US government and US commentariat As you can imagine, citizens from other countries are observing this development with great interest.
  - hunglee2 4y ago
    we can anticipate - maybe even observe - countries which retain something close to sovereignty make moves in this direction. China obviously, but also Modi's India, and I would also say any version of France, still have the ambition to maintain an independent line
- im3w1l 4y ago
  I never got the feeling that US distrusted EU software.
  - lmm 4y ago
    They definitely ignore and dismiss anything made in the EU. I don't think there's been an overwhelmingly popular app that's forced them to confront the idea of most US citizens using EU software yet.
    - grayfaced 4y ago
      If we look at telecom, US seems comfortable with Ericsson but not Huawei.
    - zone411 4y ago
      Spotify.
      - nivenkos 4y ago
        Is on the NYSE though.
        zone411 4y ago
        Foreign companies can trade on the U.S. public markets. Baidu, Sony, and Telefônica Brasil do, it doesn't make them American companies.
birdyrooster 4y ago
Eventually something China made had to stick, surprising it took this long really.
- djbusby 4y ago
  A lot of the other Chinese apps were clones. TikTock was a novel improvement to the crap of Twitter and Facebook, etc. And it's algo is(was?) very "good"
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    One has to wonder why none of the big USA based players don't have as good product? From what I have heard there isn't really anything special with the app itself. Ofc, it has reached the critical mass in creators, but it was there for taking...
    - est31 4y ago
      Youtube has built shorts (youtube tiktok competitor), and according to Google it has more users now than tiktok [0] even though it's been launched in September 2020. It contains tons of reposts of tiktok videos, sometimes legal ones by the original creators, sometimes uploads by third parties. That being said, I would take that claim with a big grain of salt, for multiple reasons. First you need to look at the relevant generation where tiktok is strong, whether youtube can break that monopoly. Also, it's fairly easy to make existing youtube users "try out" shorts via an in app pop up, and then mark that down as successful use of the feature. If your app has enough users, you can reach relevant usage counts easily, even though none of the users are there for the shorts feature only. Also, what matters with social apps like these is also not just the content consumption but whether friend groups etc. are communicating on that app or another one. This has extremely strong network effects that are hard to break. [0]: https://www.investors.com/news/technology/google-stock-rises-as-youtube-shorts-claims-1-5-billion-global-users-tik-tok/ https://www.investors.com/news/technology/google-stock-rises...
      - ok123456 4y ago
tonymet 4y ago
they mention data harvesting and influencing public relations as risks, and both are worrisome . another more subtle but pernicious concern is the trivialization of entertainment (which started from a low bar ) tiktok is addictive and much of the content is low bar , slapstick and sexually suggestive thirst traps . there may be a good share of high quality content , but we all know time spent is on garbage. our grandparents said “tv will rot your brain” and we laughed at them, but maybe because we just didn’t notice tiktok will finish the job
- collegeburner 4y ago
  fr it's scary how i watch ppl on it, they're like zombies. and yeah like half that shit is just girls "dancing" (shaking jiggly parts) in short clothes, like i mean that's fine but watching it all the time isn't healthy. look at how much is under #fakebody which is basically all people in short clothing trying not to get banned. and yeah probably you can make it show interesting stuff but it plays to people's weaker natures. besides that literally the only reason we need to oppose tiktok is that it's chinese. i'm fine with them manufacturing commodity goods but they should not be providing any cutting-edge tech to us. personally i would like to see the government try to subpoena the tiktok algo from oracle and make it public so anybody can knock it off. that would be some poetic justice against china.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    It's pretty ironic how a large swath of the public decided it was the right thing to ban anything that's Russian, but somehow it's a no-no to be opposed to an app because it's from the PRC. Not saying that necessarily means that no one should use any Chinese apps, but those against anything Russian really ought not to come to the defense of the PRC.
    - lostmsu 4y ago
      PRC is not quite on the same scale as long as they respect borders.
    - trasz 4y ago
mjmsmith 4y ago
I”m open to good-faith criticism of TikTok, but “our authoritarians don’t like an app controlled by their authoritarians” isn’t particularly compelling.
- rcpt 4y ago
  "the US and PRC are equally authoritarian" isn't particularly compelling either
  - drno123 4y ago
    Sure, since in the last 20 years US invaded Iraq, Afganistan and Lybia while PRC invaded 0 countries.
    - ALittleLight 4y ago
      Authoritarianism is not measured by invasion count.
      - sudosysgen 4y ago
        It can't be used alone, but invasion or not destroying the lives of dozens of millions of people violently for marginal gain is authoritarian and it's the essence of the problem with authoritarianism.
    - aesthesia 4y ago
      Authoritarianism and military aggression are not the same thing.
    - jjcon 4y ago
      "Invaded" language and situational nuance aside, that has everything to do with superpower status and nothing to do with being authoritarian...
      - foverzar 4y ago
xan92 4y ago
There is lot of good content creators on TikTok apart from (dancing/singing) ones, the TechTok community is huge , It really depends on what interest the end users have, It's all individual attention driven algorithm that caters to the end user needs based on their likes/dislikes. It's faster to learn if you don't like something it does a good job in not recommending those type of content again. Which I believe Instagram/youtube isn't that great at.
- Avamander 4y ago
  It's hypertailored compared to YouTube and the likes. When people complain about the content they see, be it terrible DIY hacks or something more bizarre, I can't help but wonder what they've done that TikTok recommends such content to them. After dropping a few hints that it's very tailored a few have gotten a bit embarrassed and stopped complaining. Interestingly it also separates a lot of the users from the rest, people call them [thing]-toks and crossovers aren't very welcome. Kinda like subreddits, but algorithmic.
  - nonamenoslogan 4y ago
    This has been my experience--once and awhile a new topic will start showing up in my feed, say 1%'r motorcycle clubs or peanut-butter-whisky drinkers. All it takes is a couple "not interested" clicks and poof, back to people showing off vintage computers and HAM radio videos.
    - judge2020 4y ago
      > To that end, sometimes you may come across a video in your feed that doesn't appear to be relevant to your expressed interests or have amassed a huge number of likes. > By offering different videos from time to time, the system is also able to get a better sense of what's popular among a wider range of audiences to help provide other TikTok users a great experience, too. Our goal is to find balance between suggesting content that's relevant to you while also helping you find content and creators that encourage you to explore experiences you might not otherwise see. https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/how-tiktok-recommends-videos-for-you https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/how-tiktok-recommends-vide...
voisin 4y ago
So here’s my tinfoil hat theory. When I watch Tik Tok (and I am fully aware my feed is different from others), I become genuinely happy. I see people singing, creating music together via duets, showing homesteading skills, teaching things they know, telling funny jokes, etc. I never see dangerous challenges, though I am not a teen. Here’s the tinfoil hat theory: Tik Tok is what social media was meant to be, but unlike American social media giants that made their deal with the devil and drive growth via separating and polarizing people, Tik Tok makes people feel like the world isn’t a scary awful place with “them vs us” mentality, and so it poses a threat to our political culture which feeds off division. All I know is that when I go on Facebook I just see angry boomers being quasi political, when I go on Instagram I am filled with envy, when I go on twitter I feel overwhelmed by the sheer flood of information and vileness, and when I go on Tik Tok I feel happy and a new ambition to pick up the guitar again.
- ThalesX 4y ago
  TikTok is the only social media app I use anymore. I didn’t even change my default ‘user12345’ account nor have I linked anything to it. I also consume it differently than I used to do the others, by going maybe once per week or two and binge for a couple of hours. It fills me with joy and ideas just as you say.
  - gardenhedge 4y ago
    So what is the social aspect if you're not connected with anyone?
    - voisin 4y ago
      This is a valid point. I am not the poster you are responding to but the top level poster. I too don’t follow people I know and perhaps that’s the difference from the social platforms. In that regard it is more like YouTube, but unlike YouTube, the algorithm isn’t radicalizing me other than making me want to learn guitar again. So what is it about YouTube that makes people more likely to become radical incels willing to shoot up a school, and TikTok makes people more like to learn a new dance routine and leave with a smile?
ectopod 4y ago
China passed a law a couple of years ago requiring all Chinese companies to give the government live access to their databases. Is TikTok exempt? If not, statements that the government hasn't requested any data are misleading. They don't need to.
- api 4y ago
  Even if TikTik claims to be exempt I would not believe it. I would also assume that US police and intelligence have access to Facebook, Google, etc. regardless of what anyone says. End to end encrypted or it is not private. No exceptions.
- micromacrofoot 4y ago
  bytedance is partially state owned, so there’s zero chance it’s not happening
- yorwba 4y ago
  TikTok is technically not a Chinese company, so it wouldn't be affected by such a law. But I haven't read the law and don't know how accurate your summary of it is. Do you have a link?
  - dqpb 4y ago
    > TikTok is technically not a Chinese company I guess the economist has it wrong then: > As the first consumer-facing app from China to take off in the West, TikTok is a source of pride in Beijing. But the app’s Chinese ownership makes politicians elsewhere uneasy about its tightening grip on their citizens’ attention
    - stale2002 4y ago
      The point being here is that the company ownership is setup in a complicate way, that is different than just being straight up controlled by china. As in, there are apparently sub companies, that are in the US, not in china, that makes it different.
winternett 4y ago
I don't think it's the privacy issues that will defeat TikTok, I think it's the deception of a success economy being possible on the platform. In the past few weeks I've been observing a lot of marginal content trending on the platform which indicates to me that a lot of the more quality posters aren't posting new content. The minute quality creators leave a platform is the minute it dies. TikTok has not really been rewarding creators fairly, and pushes the idea that organic growth is possible, and that people have become really successful, but many creators realize after months of working for little to no reward that it's a false narrative. There are billions of accounts on these platforms yes, but the main question is are they actively posting, engaged, and satisfied? The answer is most likely no, and that's why Twitter didn't sell fast too. I wrote about this issue just earlier today - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32046338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32046338
- okasaki 4y ago
  "Economy"? What "economy" is ByteDance promising?
- analyst74 4y ago
  For successful YouTubers, the money coming from YT is actually not their primary income, one YouTuber publically said YT payout is ~1/4 of their total revenue. Their other main sources of revenue includes brand deals, affiliates, product/merc sales and direct donation. Tiktokers are generally following YouTuber model in how they monetize their content, minus Ads revenue share.
  - winternett 4y ago
    If Microsoft said "Come work for us every day for free, you may get brand deals!" Would anyone with talent, skills, and self respect jump to do it? Working for free at a large and quite profitable company? The problem is that because of how perception can be manipulated on social platforms based on that success illusion. It makes people think that the success comes just for creating simple content, and trumps one's ability to prioritize making money to do real world things like paying rent and for food. It's borderline exploitation of children, who often over expose themselves just for likes, and that is going to be bad for their future prospects in being taken seriously when they want to get real world and respectable jobs. It's free work with little reward. The brand deals go to celebrity creators, NOT to normal creators, while the platform profits massively and underpays most everyone who does the real work. Most of the influencers on these platforms find that even the popularity they gain fades quickly in the real world, especially as the platforms begin to decline in popularity as well, and the minute they stop working hard for free. We need to stop fooling ourselves about it all.
crmd 4y ago
85% of US teenagers use tiktok. That's 85% of the future generation of US senators, Cabinet members, and Supreme Court justices, of police chiefs, civil rights activists, mayors, CEOs, etc. in their bedrooms right now consuming content curated by, and filming their lives and that of their friends, and uploading the video to data centers, that are controlled by a strategic adversary of the United States. This is, to put it lightly, a huge national security risk.
- lumost 4y ago
  In what world does it make sense to allow a country who blocks access to their market unrestricted access to the US market? If china is a rival to the US, why do they have one of the most favorable trade deals?
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    Because it's not true that they have unrestricted access to the US market, see Huawei, ZTE, etc... And it's not true they have one of the most favourable trade deals, many tariffs are still in effect.
    - Teever 4y ago
      But surely you see that there is a difference in how China regulates American companies operating in China and vice versa? Perhaps the US should adopt a tit for tat policy with regards to China in this matter?
      - bigcat12345678 4y ago
        What's the importance of means to an end? US rules the world through a liberal voting political propaganda; a rule-based capitalism market economy; a USD denominated financial structure. Sure, US blocked Huawei through rule of law; and you think China has no laws to block FB & Google? But behind the cloak of laws regulations, the intention of mutual exclusion is pure and same, nothing different.
  - 4y ago
codemac 4y ago
The "forecast" graph seems a little ... optimistic given the market these days.
Fargoan 4y ago
It's been evident from the beginning what it is
unixhero 4y ago
TikTok is an AMAZING platform for original content on just about everything.
- rasz 4y ago
  for reposting copies of original content?
  - ok123456 4y ago
    Most of the content I get is original. The reality is, Facebook is where content goes to die.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      How can you possibly know that? I'm not even saying it isn't, I just think it's basically unknowable.
      - wahnfrieden 4y ago
        you can simply look at the blatant content copying which does not attempt to hide it, across these platforms, and for that category see it easily
  - Avamander 4y ago
    There's a significant amount of original content on TikTok, so I'm not sure what you've seen exactly, but you might want to scroll past those to see less of them.
  - unixhero 4y ago
    No, wrong. I have never seen any reposted content.
- ok123456 4y ago
  And that's the reason people use it. It eats into the consent manufacturing pipeline that the US has carved out and that's the reason they're really worried. "Military recruitment is down because of TikTok!" No. There are just service members who are showing what it's really like there.
mathverse 4y ago
I am really annoyed at how we (EU) and the US treat chinese companies and citizens. We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China, we have essentially no rights and cant really conduct business. Unlike chinese who are pretty much granted all of that when they want to immigrate or conduct business in EU/US.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  That arrangement seems to be almost entirely to the benefit of the EU/US, as there's little incentive for bright/ motivated Europeans or Americans to move to China, vs significant incentive in the opposite direction.
  - bgorman 4y ago
    Google and Meta are the best software companies the US has produced in the last 25 years. These two companies are also largely responsible for driving up wages for SV workers. TikTok could destroy both companies.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Those two companies will be "destroyed" when they can no longer do what they do as well as their competitors. What the current laws are in China are unlikely to have much impact either way.
      - vineyardmike 4y ago
        The point is that we allow competition from China but they can’t compete in China. It’s asymmetrical competition. The Chinese companies have a bigger population of customers (so more access to make money, more people to serve and grow from etc). China protects their businesses from American competition but we don’t protect our businesses from Chinese competition.
        wizofaus 4y ago
mrkramer 4y ago
From the economic point of view TikTok's arrival is more than welcome so Meta's and Alphabet's dominance of digital ad market can be challenged but looking it from US national security point of view it is a disaster. Thanks Jack Dorsey for destroying Vine, now you can let Elon Musk destroy Twitter and your job will be done. Adios Amigo!
dcchambers 4y ago
The addictive nature of TikTok scares the shit out of me. It's like the culmination of 20 years of social media research and testing purposely designed to create the most addictive product possible. Such a large percentage of young people use it...it's absolutely terrifying.
- Brybry 4y ago
  I wouldn't worry too much about TikTok's impact on the youth as a population (rather than specific individuals with evidence of actual struggles). Similar fears were expressed about music corrupting the youth. And TV rotting their brains. And video games turning them into mass murderers. And yet, even with all the actual addictive poisons generations of youth have imbibed, those youth turned into us and here we are posting on HN.
  - EamonnMR 4y ago
    Are you sure TV didn't rot our brains?
  - wyre 4y ago
    Social media addiction is a very real thing and tiktok does it better than any of its competitors.
    - lmm 4y ago
      I've heard this but it doesn't match my experience at all. I see far more addictive behaviour on facebook or twitter (or, hell, HN).
      - wyre 4y ago
        Have you used tiktok? There’s nothing about it that isn’t addictive. Facebook, Twitter, and HN hold a different behavior because they are used for asynchronous communication between general users while TT is full of parasocial relationships between the created and fans. FB and Twitter also offer more utility than TikTok, an example being small businesses using Facebook and Twitter instead of a website.
8bitsrule 4y ago
> Users’ ... viewing could be moulded by Chinese propagandists. Not a problem during the decades of Voice of America broadcasts, of course.
- aparticulate 4y ago
  Strawpoll literally any sample of people in the world if they've heard of VoA, indeed, have ever listened to the radio. Now do the same for TikTok… You could maybe make a better case for something like Western cultural exports like music and movies. e.g. Like The Beatles with impressive centralised data gathering. Marvel movies, but more addictive.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
Hard to believe that the US government just doesn't cut them off unless they sever all ties with China. Again Trump was a garbage President and dumpster fire of a human being, but he definitely got that right. It's a national security matter at this point.
joeman1000 4y ago
It’s a subversive platform. It quickly profiles someone and begins serving them mind-altering content. Content which will change someone’s perception, behaviour and world-view. Part of its power is our new belief in the transcendental nature of ‘the algorithm’. People believe they ‘should’ be viewing the content that TikTok serves to them, so the messages in the content are more potent. When you put this limbic weapon in the hands of a communist regime, incredibly bad things will happen. Facebook at least had some backlash over manipulating their users mood using their platform. It’s not hard to imagine China attempting some fairly subversive things with TikTok. I would never sign up for it.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Your first paragraph describes Instagram's algorithmic feed or YouTube suggestions just as well. The original sin IMHO is not killing algorithmic feeds in the crib with regulation. I don't get how companies can continue to claim immunity from liability under section 230 when they actively curate user feeds to maximize their commercial interests.
- dburflzz 4y ago
  One would think the app would be banned at the first attempt.
lizardactivist 4y ago
And so does hypocritical accusations.
neonate 4y ago
https://archive.ph/f0Rkv https://archive.ph/f0Rkv
mkl95 4y ago
TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century so far, and it is based on a simple idea - people will happily give away their data and privacy if you consistently entertain them. In my opinion the application should be shut down as soon as possible, but there are many lessons to learn from it. And most of them have little to do with technology.
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"?
  - shikoba 4y ago
    It is because China is the enemy. When it's Facebook or Google strangely it's never an issue. Moral is always a facade for international economic war. And some people fall for it.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - pempem 4y ago
      While most people on HN would agree that they would like more regulation of their data on FB and Google, these are largely still separate actors from the US government. You can even indicate that something like Cambridge Analytica is starting within a party, rather than the actual governing body. There is too much sharing, IMO, without a doubt. That being said, they are not near synonymous as TikTok is. Data regulation, privacy, influence through exposure are real issues worldwide. Tiktok has a raised profile due to its closeness with a governing state body.
      - Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
        The thing is that "government = bad" is typical American mindset. As another non-US, non-Chinese citizen, the fact that those megacorporations are independent from the government makes it worse, not better. At least governments respond to their people (especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution). Corporations respond to profit only, everything else be damned.
jokoon 4y ago
I'm not a fan of china controlling such a popular app, but at the same time, I don't see how it could be a security risk. I guess in the same way fake news and deceptive political advertising was used on Facebook to elect Trump, for example? I'm really puzzled by how the US believes in free speech, but when speech comes from another country, it's a security risk. Now I totally get that China can use propaganda for "bad ideologies", but again, isn't propaganda part of free speech? What this whole thing reveals, is that US likes to influence other countries (with its long history of foreign policy), but is afraid to be influenced by others, so it's a bit hypocritical. And if it's not hypocritical, it's fair game at worst.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  > Now I totally get that China can use propaganda for "bad ideologies", but again, isn't propaganda part of free speech? Not coming from a country who considers themselves at war with us.
  - jokoon 4y ago
    At war? Any source for those claims? It's not a secret China exports a lot of stuff, not sure it would export things to countries it is at war with.
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      I don't mean to suggest there is a hot war, but more of a propaganda war so they can take the US down without a physical war. China sees the US as a threat and has been attempting to undermine the US at every turn. Many Chinese students in the US basically become spies due to the threats against their families. The Chinese government has been propagandising people in the US with Confucius Institutes. A Chinese spy was sleeping with a US house member and another was on a US senator's team. I'm sure there are more cases than just these two as well. They are infiltrating the US to destroy us from within so they don't need a hot war. People in the US either don't know or don't care. As for exporting goods to the US. With cheap labor it hollows out the middle class in the US. We used to have good paying jobs for non college educated people but those jobs were offshored to China. This weakens the general population and causes increased drug use and other actions of despair. By continuing to send us goods they are keeping the US restricted in what they can do. If China blocked exports it would devastate the US economy.
davesque 4y ago
I'd be in favor of banning TikTok just so I don't have to see those mind-annihilatingly stupid ads for it on YouTube anymore. And before people comment, I'm seeing ads because I like using the YouTube mobile app.
- stevenhuang 4y ago
  Checkout YouTube Vanced, it's shutdown but latest version still works well. Blocks YouTube ads.
  - popcalc 4y ago
    If you're on iOS there are a few "open source" tweaked YouTube ipa's you can sideload. The one I use has adblocking, Premium-free background playing, SponsorBlock and actual mp4 downloading built in. If you have an Apple Developer account, you can sign it once a year. If not, there ways of automating the weekly resigning (look up altstore).
qwertass 4y ago
Totally leaving FB for Tik Tok after seeing all these stupid articles.
- sumnole 4y ago
  About ready to leave Hacker News with all the anti-globalist and anti-decentralist sentiment I've been seeing. Valid arguments are grayed out and the top comment is an unfounded "TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century". Looks like HN can't break out of its own bubble.
hellodanylo 4y ago
A lot of concerns are focusing on (person) -> (tiktok) -> (CCP) data flow. What about the reverse information flow? A foreign political party tuning the algorithm to affect public opinions? I think this is even more impactful than data snooping. It's also a lot harder to detect and prevent.
- aembleton 4y ago
  > TikTok’s growing role as a news platform has sparked fears that, in the words of Ted Cruz, an American senator, it is “a Trojan horse the Chinese Communist Party can use to influence what Americans see, hear and ultimately think”. That's about 75% of the way through the article.
EastSmith 4y ago
The solution is simple - ban algorithmic feeds (yes FB and Twitter too). It is the 21st century nicotine.
User23 4y ago
It’s telling that China doesn’t permit any major foreign social media.
aaron695 4y ago
anewpersonality 4y ago
moneywoes 4y ago
Anyone here looking to build tools for TikTok? Seeing it usurp every other social network so fast has me looking into opportunities
randomsearch 4y ago
There’s a lot of political chat on this thread, and usually geopolitical discussions seem to bifurcate into two falsehoods amongst nerds. The first group seem to be missing the terrible things the US has done to the world. It has had unrivalled military and economic dominance for the best part of a century and it has abused that power. Whether that’s invading countries, organising coups, killing foreign citizens in large numbers via CIA operations, etc etc, America has shown little restraint. I think often folks are not aware of this, because (a) a lot of America’s imperialism doesn’t get much news coverage in the west and (b) the victim countries are often not very interesting or significant to that audience. Only the really obvious events like Iraq get flagged. And on the other side, there is this tendency to demonise America and defend other countries in order to criticise America. So, ignoring the realities of what China and Russia have done to other countries and their own people. I mean, just look at the eastern block communist countries, or what is going on in Ukraine now, to see how Russia operates. I’m less knowledgeable about China but internally the government has tried to unite the country by eliminating all types of diversity in very disturbing Orwellian ways. Externally it hasn’t found its military feet quite yet, but we can see the use of soft power to cripple countries in a way not dissimilar to western imperialism. I think what does bother me is that either viewpoint is very black and white, very simplified, and ignores the positive things that those countries do achieve. The truth is the world is complex, it’s a mixed bag, and “America is great” or “America is pure evil” are viewpoints that lack any sense of nuance. I mean, America is not one president or one set of staff or one institution. Its government is multifaceted and can be in public disagreement with itself. I think the big issue with America is the influence of corporate power, the way capital interacts with democracy, that’s its biggest sin when it comes to geopolitics, that’s where to focus your anger and inquiry.
nswest23 4y ago
> All this disruption is healthy in a market long thought uncompetitive. The US market for one, is so tilted in favor of established firms that use their market positions to build moats and buy or crush any upstart competitors and focus all their on attention on lobbying and rent seeking behaviors that the only place for legitimate contenders to appear is from places like China where American firms can't just buy them out of existence.
MetroWind 4y ago
I'm a fan of "when you look at a thing, think who benefits from it". In this case Facebook.
togs 4y ago
The fact is that TikTok is currently superior to other apps in terms of user engagement. As a consumer, I understand that a business simply exists to generate profit, and while I can and do benefit from this pursuit of profit, our relationship remains adversarial; consequently, my allegiance is mercenary. TikTok is the best product, so I use it. I wonder why U.S. firms pay U.S. senators to loosen data privacy laws, such that they can compete with TikTok. U.S. firms seem to think that the cost changing privacy laws is greater than the cost of paying news outlets to turn public opinion against a business rival.

341 points by samizdis 4y ago

excellent article, surprisingly nuanced and - I think - fair in its analysis. The main fear is not that it is a foreign owned app - after all, most people in the countries all over the world are using foreign owned (US) apps - it is because it is the first non-US app used by US citizens which unnerves both the US government and US commentariat. Whether those fears are justified or not, I suspect US will follow the China's vision of the internet, prioritise national security concerns over freedom of choice, and ultimately ban TikTok

gravitate 4y ago
curious_cat_163 4y ago
I hope that the US doesn’t ban TikTok. That would be a very bad outcome for the concept of an open internet. I do think more regulation are likely in order. There are some very good arguments for not letting children under a certain age to be allowed on the social media platforms. However, the enforcement of those laws is spotty and is left to parental controls. What we need is an outbreak of social media literacy among the youngest members of society. Like, this needs to be taught at school in first grade or something.
- mantas 4y ago
  Open internet is already dead. Now the question is if West defends or is it up for grabs for other countries that already built their own walled gardens.
- yellow_postit 4y ago
  Long have primary education financial and internet literacy been proposed but the pessimist in me sees a low likelihood of US-nationwide adoption of either given the polarization. Ironically due to those exact same issues. This seems like a classic case that needs some more direct regulatory intervention.
- lumost 4y ago
  This is effectively demanding an impossible solution to a present problem. Asking grade school children to weigh the geopolitical consequences of their cat videos is never going to happen. You’re talking about an age group which is still learning basic literacy. The solution is regulation, we already regulate children's television programming for this exact reason.
  - curious_cat_163 4y ago
    I don't see how we disagree. If by "present problem" you mean, the fact that TikTok happens to have been built by a Chinese company, then I see what you mean. Even still, for a democracy, the best protection against any potential threat is to prepare its citizens. In this case, the citizenry needs to be prepared cognitively. Arguably, it would help, if we started early -- get them while they are young? I don't see what other long-term things that a democracy can do. Other than starting a war in the near-term, I suppose?
    - nemothekid 4y ago
      >In this case, the citizenry needs to be prepared cognitively. This is such a pie in the sky suggestion that I'm forced to wonder if you even pay attention to US politics. To give you some context some of the biggest issues in education right now is: 1. Arming teachers with rifles 2. Dismantling the public school system and replacing them with vouchers. The last federally mandated educational solution, No Child Left Behind, was a massive failure and has soured most future federally mandated educational policies. Asking underfunded teachers to teach 9 year olds why they shouldn't use the "funny cat app" because of complex geopolitics will end up ignored at best or lead to incredibly xenophobia at worst (Ms. Adams told me not to use TikTok because China is evil, henceforth all asians are out to trick me). >I don't see what other long-term things that a democracy can do. Actually enforce data privacy laws universally. Of course this will anger the Facebook/Google trillion dollar oligarchs so we are told there is nothing we can do. The crux of the issue is that US wants everyone else data (EU, Oceania, Asia) but it doesn't want other companies to do the same. Your solutions are either you ban it for hegemony reasons, and pray that Europe/India/Japan/Australia doesn't enact the same law, or you ban it for privacy reasons.
- hunglee2 4y ago
  same, I think the argument for open internet can only be made by example. However, there is no domestic political mileage in maintaining that position, vs plenty of political mileage in china bad policy making. He is out of office but we are in the trump timeline
- OJFord 4y ago
  Is that not already technically the case? It certainly is/was in the UK. And I assure you everyone was using whatever they wanted, including e.g. eBay which probably has more stringently regulated rules. It's a lot easier to lie about your age on a Facebook sign-up form than to buy drugs or alcohol, and teens will find a way to do the latter if they want to.
- aparticulate 4y ago
  >What we need is an outbreak of social media literacy among the youngest members of society. Like, this needs to be taught at school in first grade or something. I use TikTok loads and I'm completely onboard with the idea that it's extremely concerning for democracy. Nuanced education doesn't help any more than it would for say, healthy eating advocacy vs fast food industry. We need carrot and stick approaches.
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    Imagine getting downvoted for what you just said lol. HN people can't be so out of contact with children to think they will make complex political decisions. All they want to see are funny dance and cat videos. I remember when I was a tween and early teens. All I cared about was decent grades, baseball, my crush, and my computer side jobs. I wouldn't have cared if tiktok was based in Iran as long as it entertained me.
    - ramblenode 4y ago
      You are also describing most adults.
alex_smart 4y ago
>The main fear is not that it is a foreign owned app - after all, most people in the countries all over the world are using foreign owned (US) apps - it is because it is the first non-US app used by US citizens which unnerves both the US government and US commentariat As you can imagine, citizens from other countries are observing this development with great interest.
- hunglee2 4y ago
  we can anticipate - maybe even observe - countries which retain something close to sovereignty make moves in this direction. China obviously, but also Modi's India, and I would also say any version of France, still have the ambition to maintain an independent line
im3w1l 4y ago
I never got the feeling that US distrusted EU software.
- lmm 4y ago
  They definitely ignore and dismiss anything made in the EU. I don't think there's been an overwhelmingly popular app that's forced them to confront the idea of most US citizens using EU software yet.
  - grayfaced 4y ago
    If we look at telecom, US seems comfortable with Ericsson but not Huawei.
  - zone411 4y ago
    Spotify.
    - nivenkos 4y ago
      Is on the NYSE though.
      - zone411 4y ago
        Foreign companies can trade on the U.S. public markets. Baidu, Sony, and Telefônica Brasil do, it doesn't make them American companies.

birdyrooster 4y ago

Eventually something China made had to stick, surprising it took this long really.

djbusby 4y ago
A lot of the other Chinese apps were clones. TikTock was a novel improvement to the crap of Twitter and Facebook, etc. And it's algo is(was?) very "good"
- Ekaros 4y ago
  One has to wonder why none of the big USA based players don't have as good product? From what I have heard there isn't really anything special with the app itself. Ofc, it has reached the critical mass in creators, but it was there for taking...
  - est31 4y ago
    Youtube has built shorts (youtube tiktok competitor), and according to Google it has more users now than tiktok [0] even though it's been launched in September 2020. It contains tons of reposts of tiktok videos, sometimes legal ones by the original creators, sometimes uploads by third parties. That being said, I would take that claim with a big grain of salt, for multiple reasons. First you need to look at the relevant generation where tiktok is strong, whether youtube can break that monopoly. Also, it's fairly easy to make existing youtube users "try out" shorts via an in app pop up, and then mark that down as successful use of the feature. If your app has enough users, you can reach relevant usage counts easily, even though none of the users are there for the shorts feature only. Also, what matters with social apps like these is also not just the content consumption but whether friend groups etc. are communicating on that app or another one. This has extremely strong network effects that are hard to break. [0]: https://www.investors.com/news/technology/google-stock-rises-as-youtube-shorts-claims-1-5-billion-global-users-tik-tok/ https://www.investors.com/news/technology/google-stock-rises...
    - ok123456 4y ago

tonymet 4y ago

they mention data harvesting and influencing public relations as risks, and both are worrisome . another more subtle but pernicious concern is the trivialization of entertainment (which started from a low bar ) tiktok is addictive and much of the content is low bar , slapstick and sexually suggestive thirst traps . there may be a good share of high quality content , but we all know time spent is on garbage. our grandparents said “tv will rot your brain” and we laughed at them, but maybe because we just didn’t notice tiktok will finish the job

collegeburner 4y ago
fr it's scary how i watch ppl on it, they're like zombies. and yeah like half that shit is just girls "dancing" (shaking jiggly parts) in short clothes, like i mean that's fine but watching it all the time isn't healthy. look at how much is under #fakebody which is basically all people in short clothing trying not to get banned. and yeah probably you can make it show interesting stuff but it plays to people's weaker natures. besides that literally the only reason we need to oppose tiktok is that it's chinese. i'm fine with them manufacturing commodity goods but they should not be providing any cutting-edge tech to us. personally i would like to see the government try to subpoena the tiktok algo from oracle and make it public so anybody can knock it off. that would be some poetic justice against china.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  It's pretty ironic how a large swath of the public decided it was the right thing to ban anything that's Russian, but somehow it's a no-no to be opposed to an app because it's from the PRC. Not saying that necessarily means that no one should use any Chinese apps, but those against anything Russian really ought not to come to the defense of the PRC.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    PRC is not quite on the same scale as long as they respect borders.
  - trasz 4y ago

mjmsmith 4y ago

I”m open to good-faith criticism of TikTok, but “our authoritarians don’t like an app controlled by their authoritarians” isn’t particularly compelling.

rcpt 4y ago
"the US and PRC are equally authoritarian" isn't particularly compelling either
- drno123 4y ago
  Sure, since in the last 20 years US invaded Iraq, Afganistan and Lybia while PRC invaded 0 countries.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    Authoritarianism is not measured by invasion count.
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      It can't be used alone, but invasion or not destroying the lives of dozens of millions of people violently for marginal gain is authoritarian and it's the essence of the problem with authoritarianism.
  - aesthesia 4y ago
    Authoritarianism and military aggression are not the same thing.
  - jjcon 4y ago
    "Invaded" language and situational nuance aside, that has everything to do with superpower status and nothing to do with being authoritarian...
    - foverzar 4y ago

xan92 4y ago

There is lot of good content creators on TikTok apart from (dancing/singing) ones, the TechTok community is huge , It really depends on what interest the end users have, It's all individual attention driven algorithm that caters to the end user needs based on their likes/dislikes. It's faster to learn if you don't like something it does a good job in not recommending those type of content again. Which I believe Instagram/youtube isn't that great at.

Avamander 4y ago
It's hypertailored compared to YouTube and the likes. When people complain about the content they see, be it terrible DIY hacks or something more bizarre, I can't help but wonder what they've done that TikTok recommends such content to them. After dropping a few hints that it's very tailored a few have gotten a bit embarrassed and stopped complaining. Interestingly it also separates a lot of the users from the rest, people call them [thing]-toks and crossovers aren't very welcome. Kinda like subreddits, but algorithmic.
- nonamenoslogan 4y ago
  This has been my experience--once and awhile a new topic will start showing up in my feed, say 1%'r motorcycle clubs or peanut-butter-whisky drinkers. All it takes is a couple "not interested" clicks and poof, back to people showing off vintage computers and HAM radio videos.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    > To that end, sometimes you may come across a video in your feed that doesn't appear to be relevant to your expressed interests or have amassed a huge number of likes. > By offering different videos from time to time, the system is also able to get a better sense of what's popular among a wider range of audiences to help provide other TikTok users a great experience, too. Our goal is to find balance between suggesting content that's relevant to you while also helping you find content and creators that encourage you to explore experiences you might not otherwise see. https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/how-tiktok-recommends-videos-for-you https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/how-tiktok-recommends-vide...

voisin 4y ago

So here’s my tinfoil hat theory. When I watch Tik Tok (and I am fully aware my feed is different from others), I become genuinely happy. I see people singing, creating music together via duets, showing homesteading skills, teaching things they know, telling funny jokes, etc. I never see dangerous challenges, though I am not a teen. Here’s the tinfoil hat theory: Tik Tok is what social media was meant to be, but unlike American social media giants that made their deal with the devil and drive growth via separating and polarizing people, Tik Tok makes people feel like the world isn’t a scary awful place with “them vs us” mentality, and so it poses a threat to our political culture which feeds off division. All I know is that when I go on Facebook I just see angry boomers being quasi political, when I go on Instagram I am filled with envy, when I go on twitter I feel overwhelmed by the sheer flood of information and vileness, and when I go on Tik Tok I feel happy and a new ambition to pick up the guitar again.

ThalesX 4y ago
TikTok is the only social media app I use anymore. I didn’t even change my default ‘user12345’ account nor have I linked anything to it. I also consume it differently than I used to do the others, by going maybe once per week or two and binge for a couple of hours. It fills me with joy and ideas just as you say.
- gardenhedge 4y ago
  So what is the social aspect if you're not connected with anyone?
  - voisin 4y ago
    This is a valid point. I am not the poster you are responding to but the top level poster. I too don’t follow people I know and perhaps that’s the difference from the social platforms. In that regard it is more like YouTube, but unlike YouTube, the algorithm isn’t radicalizing me other than making me want to learn guitar again. So what is it about YouTube that makes people more likely to become radical incels willing to shoot up a school, and TikTok makes people more like to learn a new dance routine and leave with a smile?

ectopod 4y ago

China passed a law a couple of years ago requiring all Chinese companies to give the government live access to their databases. Is TikTok exempt? If not, statements that the government hasn't requested any data are misleading. They don't need to.

api 4y ago
Even if TikTik claims to be exempt I would not believe it. I would also assume that US police and intelligence have access to Facebook, Google, etc. regardless of what anyone says. End to end encrypted or it is not private. No exceptions.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
bytedance is partially state owned, so there’s zero chance it’s not happening
yorwba 4y ago
TikTok is technically not a Chinese company, so it wouldn't be affected by such a law. But I haven't read the law and don't know how accurate your summary of it is. Do you have a link?
- dqpb 4y ago
  > TikTok is technically not a Chinese company I guess the economist has it wrong then: > As the first consumer-facing app from China to take off in the West, TikTok is a source of pride in Beijing. But the app’s Chinese ownership makes politicians elsewhere uneasy about its tightening grip on their citizens’ attention
  - stale2002 4y ago
    The point being here is that the company ownership is setup in a complicate way, that is different than just being straight up controlled by china. As in, there are apparently sub companies, that are in the US, not in china, that makes it different.

winternett 4y ago

I don't think it's the privacy issues that will defeat TikTok, I think it's the deception of a success economy being possible on the platform. In the past few weeks I've been observing a lot of marginal content trending on the platform which indicates to me that a lot of the more quality posters aren't posting new content. The minute quality creators leave a platform is the minute it dies. TikTok has not really been rewarding creators fairly, and pushes the idea that organic growth is possible, and that people have become really successful, but many creators realize after months of working for little to no reward that it's a false narrative. There are billions of accounts on these platforms yes, but the main question is are they actively posting, engaged, and satisfied? The answer is most likely no, and that's why Twitter didn't sell fast too. I wrote about this issue just earlier today - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32046338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32046338

okasaki 4y ago
"Economy"? What "economy" is ByteDance promising?
analyst74 4y ago
For successful YouTubers, the money coming from YT is actually not their primary income, one YouTuber publically said YT payout is ~1/4 of their total revenue. Their other main sources of revenue includes brand deals, affiliates, product/merc sales and direct donation. Tiktokers are generally following YouTuber model in how they monetize their content, minus Ads revenue share.
- winternett 4y ago
  If Microsoft said "Come work for us every day for free, you may get brand deals!" Would anyone with talent, skills, and self respect jump to do it? Working for free at a large and quite profitable company? The problem is that because of how perception can be manipulated on social platforms based on that success illusion. It makes people think that the success comes just for creating simple content, and trumps one's ability to prioritize making money to do real world things like paying rent and for food. It's borderline exploitation of children, who often over expose themselves just for likes, and that is going to be bad for their future prospects in being taken seriously when they want to get real world and respectable jobs. It's free work with little reward. The brand deals go to celebrity creators, NOT to normal creators, while the platform profits massively and underpays most everyone who does the real work. Most of the influencers on these platforms find that even the popularity they gain fades quickly in the real world, especially as the platforms begin to decline in popularity as well, and the minute they stop working hard for free. We need to stop fooling ourselves about it all.

crmd 4y ago

85% of US teenagers use tiktok. That's 85% of the future generation of US senators, Cabinet members, and Supreme Court justices, of police chiefs, civil rights activists, mayors, CEOs, etc. in their bedrooms right now consuming content curated by, and filming their lives and that of their friends, and uploading the video to data centers, that are controlled by a strategic adversary of the United States. This is, to put it lightly, a huge national security risk.

lumost 4y ago
In what world does it make sense to allow a country who blocks access to their market unrestricted access to the US market? If china is a rival to the US, why do they have one of the most favorable trade deals?
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  Because it's not true that they have unrestricted access to the US market, see Huawei, ZTE, etc... And it's not true they have one of the most favourable trade deals, many tariffs are still in effect.
  - Teever 4y ago
    But surely you see that there is a difference in how China regulates American companies operating in China and vice versa? Perhaps the US should adopt a tit for tat policy with regards to China in this matter?
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      What's the importance of means to an end? US rules the world through a liberal voting political propaganda; a rule-based capitalism market economy; a USD denominated financial structure. Sure, US blocked Huawei through rule of law; and you think China has no laws to block FB & Google? But behind the cloak of laws regulations, the intention of mutual exclusion is pure and same, nothing different.
- 4y ago

codemac 4y ago

The "forecast" graph seems a little ... optimistic given the market these days.

Fargoan 4y ago

It's been evident from the beginning what it is

unixhero 4y ago

TikTok is an AMAZING platform for original content on just about everything.

rasz 4y ago
for reposting copies of original content?
- ok123456 4y ago
  Most of the content I get is original. The reality is, Facebook is where content goes to die.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    How can you possibly know that? I'm not even saying it isn't, I just think it's basically unknowable.
    - wahnfrieden 4y ago
      you can simply look at the blatant content copying which does not attempt to hide it, across these platforms, and for that category see it easily
- Avamander 4y ago
  There's a significant amount of original content on TikTok, so I'm not sure what you've seen exactly, but you might want to scroll past those to see less of them.
- unixhero 4y ago
  No, wrong. I have never seen any reposted content.
ok123456 4y ago
And that's the reason people use it. It eats into the consent manufacturing pipeline that the US has carved out and that's the reason they're really worried. "Military recruitment is down because of TikTok!" No. There are just service members who are showing what it's really like there.

mathverse 4y ago

I am really annoyed at how we (EU) and the US treat chinese companies and citizens. We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China, we have essentially no rights and cant really conduct business. Unlike chinese who are pretty much granted all of that when they want to immigrate or conduct business in EU/US.

wizofaus 4y ago
That arrangement seems to be almost entirely to the benefit of the EU/US, as there's little incentive for bright/ motivated Europeans or Americans to move to China, vs significant incentive in the opposite direction.
- bgorman 4y ago
  Google and Meta are the best software companies the US has produced in the last 25 years. These two companies are also largely responsible for driving up wages for SV workers. TikTok could destroy both companies.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Those two companies will be "destroyed" when they can no longer do what they do as well as their competitors. What the current laws are in China are unlikely to have much impact either way.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago
      The point is that we allow competition from China but they can’t compete in China. It’s asymmetrical competition. The Chinese companies have a bigger population of customers (so more access to make money, more people to serve and grow from etc). China protects their businesses from American competition but we don’t protect our businesses from Chinese competition.
      - wizofaus 4y ago

mrkramer 4y ago

From the economic point of view TikTok's arrival is more than welcome so Meta's and Alphabet's dominance of digital ad market can be challenged but looking it from US national security point of view it is a disaster. Thanks Jack Dorsey for destroying Vine, now you can let Elon Musk destroy Twitter and your job will be done. Adios Amigo!

dcchambers 4y ago

The addictive nature of TikTok scares the shit out of me. It's like the culmination of 20 years of social media research and testing purposely designed to create the most addictive product possible. Such a large percentage of young people use it...it's absolutely terrifying.

Brybry 4y ago
I wouldn't worry too much about TikTok's impact on the youth as a population (rather than specific individuals with evidence of actual struggles). Similar fears were expressed about music corrupting the youth. And TV rotting their brains. And video games turning them into mass murderers. And yet, even with all the actual addictive poisons generations of youth have imbibed, those youth turned into us and here we are posting on HN.
- EamonnMR 4y ago
  Are you sure TV didn't rot our brains?
- wyre 4y ago
  Social media addiction is a very real thing and tiktok does it better than any of its competitors.
  - lmm 4y ago
    I've heard this but it doesn't match my experience at all. I see far more addictive behaviour on facebook or twitter (or, hell, HN).
    - wyre 4y ago
      Have you used tiktok? There’s nothing about it that isn’t addictive. Facebook, Twitter, and HN hold a different behavior because they are used for asynchronous communication between general users while TT is full of parasocial relationships between the created and fans. FB and Twitter also offer more utility than TikTok, an example being small businesses using Facebook and Twitter instead of a website.

8bitsrule 4y ago

> Users’ ... viewing could be moulded by Chinese propagandists. Not a problem during the decades of Voice of America broadcasts, of course.

aparticulate 4y ago
Strawpoll literally any sample of people in the world if they've heard of VoA, indeed, have ever listened to the radio. Now do the same for TikTok… You could maybe make a better case for something like Western cultural exports like music and movies. e.g. Like The Beatles with impressive centralised data gathering. Marvel movies, but more addictive.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

Hard to believe that the US government just doesn't cut them off unless they sever all ties with China. Again Trump was a garbage President and dumpster fire of a human being, but he definitely got that right. It's a national security matter at this point.

joeman1000 4y ago

It’s a subversive platform. It quickly profiles someone and begins serving them mind-altering content. Content which will change someone’s perception, behaviour and world-view. Part of its power is our new belief in the transcendental nature of ‘the algorithm’. People believe they ‘should’ be viewing the content that TikTok serves to them, so the messages in the content are more potent. When you put this limbic weapon in the hands of a communist regime, incredibly bad things will happen. Facebook at least had some backlash over manipulating their users mood using their platform. It’s not hard to imagine China attempting some fairly subversive things with TikTok. I would never sign up for it.

AlexandrB 4y ago
Your first paragraph describes Instagram's algorithmic feed or YouTube suggestions just as well. The original sin IMHO is not killing algorithmic feeds in the crib with regulation. I don't get how companies can continue to claim immunity from liability under section 230 when they actively curate user feeds to maximize their commercial interests.
dburflzz 4y ago
One would think the app would be banned at the first attempt.

lizardactivist 4y ago

And so does hypocritical accusations.

neonate 4y ago

https://archive.ph/f0Rkv https://archive.ph/f0Rkv

mkl95 4y ago

TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century so far, and it is based on a simple idea - people will happily give away their data and privacy if you consistently entertain them. In my opinion the application should be shut down as soon as possible, but there are many lessons to learn from it. And most of them have little to do with technology.

madeofpalk 4y ago
As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"?
- shikoba 4y ago
  It is because China is the enemy. When it's Facebook or Google strangely it's never an issue. Moral is always a facade for international economic war. And some people fall for it.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pempem 4y ago
    While most people on HN would agree that they would like more regulation of their data on FB and Google, these are largely still separate actors from the US government. You can even indicate that something like Cambridge Analytica is starting within a party, rather than the actual governing body. There is too much sharing, IMO, without a doubt. That being said, they are not near synonymous as TikTok is. Data regulation, privacy, influence through exposure are real issues worldwide. Tiktok has a raised profile due to its closeness with a governing state body.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 4y ago
      The thing is that "government = bad" is typical American mindset. As another non-US, non-Chinese citizen, the fact that those megacorporations are independent from the government makes it worse, not better. At least governments respond to their people (especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution). Corporations respond to profit only, everything else be damned.

jokoon 4y ago

I'm not a fan of china controlling such a popular app, but at the same time, I don't see how it could be a security risk. I guess in the same way fake news and deceptive political advertising was used on Facebook to elect Trump, for example? I'm really puzzled by how the US believes in free speech, but when speech comes from another country, it's a security risk. Now I totally get that China can use propaganda for "bad ideologies", but again, isn't propaganda part of free speech? What this whole thing reveals, is that US likes to influence other countries (with its long history of foreign policy), but is afraid to be influenced by others, so it's a bit hypocritical. And if it's not hypocritical, it's fair game at worst.

_-david-_ 4y ago
> Now I totally get that China can use propaganda for "bad ideologies", but again, isn't propaganda part of free speech? Not coming from a country who considers themselves at war with us.
- jokoon 4y ago
  At war? Any source for those claims? It's not a secret China exports a lot of stuff, not sure it would export things to countries it is at war with.
  - _-david-_ 4y ago
    I don't mean to suggest there is a hot war, but more of a propaganda war so they can take the US down without a physical war. China sees the US as a threat and has been attempting to undermine the US at every turn. Many Chinese students in the US basically become spies due to the threats against their families. The Chinese government has been propagandising people in the US with Confucius Institutes. A Chinese spy was sleeping with a US house member and another was on a US senator's team. I'm sure there are more cases than just these two as well. They are infiltrating the US to destroy us from within so they don't need a hot war. People in the US either don't know or don't care. As for exporting goods to the US. With cheap labor it hollows out the middle class in the US. We used to have good paying jobs for non college educated people but those jobs were offshored to China. This weakens the general population and causes increased drug use and other actions of despair. By continuing to send us goods they are keeping the US restricted in what they can do. If China blocked exports it would devastate the US economy.

davesque 4y ago

I'd be in favor of banning TikTok just so I don't have to see those mind-annihilatingly stupid ads for it on YouTube anymore. And before people comment, I'm seeing ads because I like using the YouTube mobile app.

stevenhuang 4y ago
Checkout YouTube Vanced, it's shutdown but latest version still works well. Blocks YouTube ads.
- popcalc 4y ago
  If you're on iOS there are a few "open source" tweaked YouTube ipa's you can sideload. The one I use has adblocking, Premium-free background playing, SponsorBlock and actual mp4 downloading built in. If you have an Apple Developer account, you can sign it once a year. If not, there ways of automating the weekly resigning (look up altstore).

qwertass 4y ago

Totally leaving FB for Tik Tok after seeing all these stupid articles.

sumnole 4y ago
About ready to leave Hacker News with all the anti-globalist and anti-decentralist sentiment I've been seeing. Valid arguments are grayed out and the top comment is an unfounded "TikTok is the most successful espionage operation of the 21st century". Looks like HN can't break out of its own bubble.

hellodanylo 4y ago

A lot of concerns are focusing on (person) -> (tiktok) -> (CCP) data flow. What about the reverse information flow? A foreign political party tuning the algorithm to affect public opinions? I think this is even more impactful than data snooping. It's also a lot harder to detect and prevent.

aembleton 4y ago
> TikTok’s growing role as a news platform has sparked fears that, in the words of Ted Cruz, an American senator, it is “a Trojan horse the Chinese Communist Party can use to influence what Americans see, hear and ultimately think”. That's about 75% of the way through the article.

EastSmith 4y ago

The solution is simple - ban algorithmic feeds (yes FB and Twitter too). It is the 21st century nicotine.

User23 4y ago

It’s telling that China doesn’t permit any major foreign social media.

aaron695 4y ago

anewpersonality 4y ago

moneywoes 4y ago

Anyone here looking to build tools for TikTok? Seeing it usurp every other social network so fast has me looking into opportunities

randomsearch 4y ago

There’s a lot of political chat on this thread, and usually geopolitical discussions seem to bifurcate into two falsehoods amongst nerds. The first group seem to be missing the terrible things the US has done to the world. It has had unrivalled military and economic dominance for the best part of a century and it has abused that power. Whether that’s invading countries, organising coups, killing foreign citizens in large numbers via CIA operations, etc etc, America has shown little restraint. I think often folks are not aware of this, because (a) a lot of America’s imperialism doesn’t get much news coverage in the west and (b) the victim countries are often not very interesting or significant to that audience. Only the really obvious events like Iraq get flagged. And on the other side, there is this tendency to demonise America and defend other countries in order to criticise America. So, ignoring the realities of what China and Russia have done to other countries and their own people. I mean, just look at the eastern block communist countries, or what is going on in Ukraine now, to see how Russia operates. I’m less knowledgeable about China but internally the government has tried to unite the country by eliminating all types of diversity in very disturbing Orwellian ways. Externally it hasn’t found its military feet quite yet, but we can see the use of soft power to cripple countries in a way not dissimilar to western imperialism. I think what does bother me is that either viewpoint is very black and white, very simplified, and ignores the positive things that those countries do achieve. The truth is the world is complex, it’s a mixed bag, and “America is great” or “America is pure evil” are viewpoints that lack any sense of nuance. I mean, America is not one president or one set of staff or one institution. Its government is multifaceted and can be in public disagreement with itself. I think the big issue with America is the influence of corporate power, the way capital interacts with democracy, that’s its biggest sin when it comes to geopolitics, that’s where to focus your anger and inquiry.

nswest23 4y ago

> All this disruption is healthy in a market long thought uncompetitive. The US market for one, is so tilted in favor of established firms that use their market positions to build moats and buy or crush any upstart competitors and focus all their on attention on lobbying and rent seeking behaviors that the only place for legitimate contenders to appear is from places like China where American firms can't just buy them out of existence.

MetroWind 4y ago

I'm a fan of "when you look at a thing, think who benefits from it". In this case Facebook.

togs 4y ago

The fact is that TikTok is currently superior to other apps in terms of user engagement. As a consumer, I understand that a business simply exists to generate profit, and while I can and do benefit from this pursuit of profit, our relationship remains adversarial; consequently, my allegiance is mercenary. TikTok is the best product, so I use it. I wonder why U.S. firms pay U.S. senators to loosen data privacy laws, such that they can compete with TikTok. U.S. firms seem to think that the cost changing privacy laws is greater than the cost of paying news outlets to turn public opinion against a business rival.