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SpaceX said to fire employees involved in letter rebuking Elon Musk

• floatinglotus 4y ago
  Today is Friday, therefore Musk has changed his mind yet again. We are no longer fans of free speech. Stay tuned for daily updates.
• cafard 4y ago
  If you publicly embarrass your employer, you will in many cases be fired: see James Damore, Juan Williams, etc. It may seem slightly unfair that Elon Musk is allowed to embarrass Elon Musk, mostly with impunity, but that's the way it goes.
• kofejnik 4y ago
  tbh I'd kill for a chance to work at SpaceX, no matter what Elon does or twits (unless he hurts puppies obv) Elon is free to do whatever, he's a grown man, and as another grown man, I am not bothered. If you're embarrassed to work for him, just quit.
• chasing 4y ago
  This is why your CEO shouldn't be spending his days on Twitter bleating out college freshman-level hot takes on "freedom of speech." Right or wrong, this sort of thing will become like catnip and make everybody look ridiculous.
• eric4smith 4y ago
  Good. Why do people keep being activists in the workplace for this kind of issue. I could understand if it’s bad working conditions or discrimination. But bruh. People need to grow up and do work at work then be activists outside of work. Good step by SpaceX
• stn_za 4y ago
• blitzar 4y ago
  Musk, the CEO of Tesla and SpaceX, recently described himself as a "free speech absolutist."
  • ralfd 4y ago
    .
    • qayxc 4y ago
      That's not a left or right issue - it's simply a fact of life. Example: you are free to verbally shit all over your boss and company in public; just don't expect to work there for much longer. Another example: you are free to call the 1.93m thug who bumped into you a blind idiot, just don't expect to face no physical consequences for exercising your right to give him a piece of your mind. It's funny how some people try and make this a political issue when it's really not and never has been.
      • mola 4y ago
        So being banned off Twitter is a consequence for your free speech, right?
        • qayxc 4y ago
          If a company decides you violated their ToS and consequently doesn't want you on their platform anymore - then yes. They didn't involve the government to take away your civil rights or punish you and you are free to join a different platform. It's like being banned from the regulars' table for constantly being a nuisance and then complaining to the bartender that your former buddies don't want you at their table anymore.
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    • checker 4y ago
      The audience can respond any way they like without infringing on the speaker's rights or breaking any laws. It's not a right to work at SpaceX and it's not illegal to fire employees with cause.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• curiousgal 4y ago
  Well if their aim was to eventually not work for an asshole then I guess mission complete? I always find these collective actions strange. Like you if you want to change anything from the inside your only option is to (try to) unionize, anything else is pointless.
• yellow_lead 4y ago
  I can't imagine working for a company where the CEO shows such a public display of ignorance. If it's in private, at least it's not as embarrassing.
• 0xmohit 4y ago
  Musk believes in "free speech". So he decided to set them "free".
• Denvercoder9 4y ago
  > We have too much critical work to accomplish and no need for this kind of overreaching activism. This seems like a funny statement to make when your CEO is literally out buying Twitter.
  • qayxc 4y ago
    > This seems like a funny statement to make when your CEO is literally out buying Twitter. And apparently putting 90+ hours into Elden Ring, while still insisting to be working 14-20 hour days. [0] [0] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1528576711209766914 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1528576711209766914
    • ohgodplsno 4y ago
      "I work 120 hour work weeks" is CEO speak for "Any time spent in the penthouse I built with company money and in which I occasionally remote work but mostly do lines of cocaine off a hooker's back is work time". Musk does maybe 50 hours of work a week, it's just that it's spread out over time and not 10 hour long shifts like he forces on his employees.
      • tediousdemise 4y ago
        How would you know?
  • cloutchaser 4y ago
    These activists employees are free to get funding to buy spacex if Elon can be persuaded to sell. Your point makes no sense. It’s a free country, just because Elon is buying Twitter to make different rules on it makes no difference to this point. He has the resources based on building multiple billion dollar businesses. These activist employees can do the same over 30-40 years and buy companies and implement whatever they want. But don’t expect to not get fired from a private company if you don’t align with its values
• numair 4y ago
  The most disgusting fact I learned in this article is that Shotwell personally backed Musk on denying claims he sexually harassed the flight attended. What? Anyone who knows these people and their friends knows that the situation as described in the media was not out of the realm of possibility. Unless Shotwell, COO of SpaceX, was on that plane and witnessed exactly what happened, she is not qualified to assist in burying someone’s totally insane traumatic experience. My fellow HN readers, the space startup scene is growing fast. Don’t work for a CEO/COO that is willing to throw any and everyone else under the bus to ensure they can continue to collect their own multi-billion dollar paycheck for “making the world more connected.” This has shades of Sheryl Sandberg all over it — and we know how that worked out for society. The government needs to work harder to build competition against these people, and regulators need to be a lot more careful about allowing them to blast all of their crap into space. I would guess we are a few years away from some former SpaceX employees with exit liquidity revealing the dirty truth as a means of handling their own PTSD.
  • cloutchaser 4y ago
    Indeed, if you don’t want to work for musk, go work for bezos and build rockets for him. I for one think the timing of the sexual claim makes it obvious it’s political, but no one has to work for musk. So leave if you want to, if musk is so offensive. Not everyone company is an ESG obsessed multinational.
    • numair 4y ago
      The fact that you’ve inserted “political” into a fact-based happened-or-didn’t situation says more about you, and your willingness to buy into people’s conspiracy theories, than anything about the situation. SpaceX is operating in a highly regulated industry and shoving crap into space, which affects every person on Earth for the next several decades. They are way more accountable to society than almost every “multinational” you can think of.
      • cloutchaser 4y ago
        A friend of the employee made unsubstantiated claims right when Elon was doing his Twitter thing, and threatening the stranglehold of establishment lefts information control. Yes, it’s political. Why didn’t the employee go to the police? Why didn’t her friend reveal this information years ago. Your point is ridiculously naive.
• uejfiweun 4y ago
  Here's my unpopular opinion - good riddance. It's not a free speech issue because SpaceX isn't a public square. It's a company, and companies are top down. If these employees are at Musk's company, then they had better be prepared to play by Musk's rules, and they did the exact opposite, essentially leading a mutiny against the boss and sowing discord within the company in the process. SpaceX isn't an activist organization and has no obligation to kowtow to the demands of internal activists. Not all companies are like this, but again, you should know what you're signing up for when you join a Musk company. And I'd also be willing to bet cash that all these employees were very low level, likely new hires out of college, and are all of the political activist type. Because for all his bluster, Musk really hasn't done anything THAT objectionable besides openly shit on Democrats. (No, I don't believe the bogus sexual assault allegation from an anonymous friend of a friend, there's no evidence).
  • szundi 4y ago
    If you go to work to a small unknown company, you can feel surprised what you get. Working for Musk - no. You already knew everything.
  • koheripbal 4y ago
    Activist employees are toxic to company culture. We created a rule that politics and religion were not appropriate topics at work. A couple of people quit in response, and morale improved dramatically.
    • stn_za 4y ago
      Love this!
    • lprd 4y ago
      This should be standard practice. Politics these days are toxic as it is, why would you want to drag that into the workplace? Even if it wasn't toxic, it just seems highly inappropriate. If one wants to be a political activist, perhaps go find a job that's better suited for that type of behavior.
    • 4y ago
• andy_ppp 4y ago
  Sounds like SpaceX employees should get a Union to protect all staff if they want to stand up to the boss.
  • kumarvvr 4y ago
    Yeah, unions are not about standing up to the boss. Unions are there to protect worker rights and none of those rights involve questioning the business decisions or administrative decisions of the management. Frankly, worker unions have abused the serious power they hold and have diluted it by protecting slackers. And they have earned their reputations. The job of a worker is to be honest, sincere and be dedicated to work assigned to him. The job of a union is to ensure that the work assigned to a worker is reasonable, safe, legal and properly compensated (Over time, etc)
    • andy_ppp 4y ago
      That depends on what the union members decide is important.
    • ohgodplsno 4y ago
      >none of those rights involve questioning the business decisions or administrative decisions of the management. Tell me you've never seen a union without telling me you've never seen a union.
    • aaomidi 4y ago
      Unions have abused the power they have? Which union in particular? There is only one in the US that you could reasonably say that about and it’s the police union. These companies are nothing without their workers. Remember that.
      • scollet 4y ago
• wnkrshm 4y ago
  I understand that drama like that can't be easily tolerated in a company but if it's the owner causing drama all the time I also get the frustration of the people taking part. I wonder whether this could have worked in a publically traded company with a board - someone who could try to rein in Musk but the hierarchy doesn't work this way here.
• lprd 4y ago
  Good. The organizers are free to leave the company if they aren't comfortable with the leadership, or disagree with the company's direction. I'm not sure why this is getting so much coverage in the first place. Employees have been fired for less at places like Google. The amount of much coverage Musk is getting these days is crazy. His stance on free speech and the advent of his Twitter purchase seemed to amplify disdain from certain groups. I'm no Musk fanboy, but I find that really interesting.
  • me_me_me 4y ago
    > The organizers are free to leave the company if they aren't comfortable with the leadership This is weird stance. 'If you don't like it you can leave.' That's what parents say to discipline misbehaving kids. The organizers wrote the letter because they care about their work and workplace, and are concerned with Musk's behavior that jeopardize their effort (as in spaceX as company whole). The people that actually know whats going on in the company are its employees not CEOs. And that is especially true to musk who is doing 1000 things, and those seems to most be: keeping up appearances that he is doing work + creating new PR disaster via twitter.
• aaron695 4y ago
• ReptileMan 4y ago
  That's the way to deal with crybullies. The intercept had amazing article lately about how this attitude tears organizations apart.
  • mola 4y ago
    Pretty sure musk should fall in the category of a crybully as well.
    • ReptileMan 4y ago
      Feel free to fire him
• iammjm 4y ago
  The dude claiming to be a "free speech absolutist" fires people who said something about him he doesn't like... yikes. Musk is slowly turning into a Mad King
• theklr 4y ago
  I wonder if these now fired employees can get some talks with one of SpaceX’s employers, NASA.
• bgentry 4y ago
  https://archive.ph/2022.06.17-132537/https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/spacex-fires-employees-involved-in-letter-critical-of-musk-company-11655471021 https://archive.ph/2022.06.17-132537/https://www.wsj.com/amp...
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• nocoolnametom 4y ago
  Musk may end up being the most influential person to: 1. Electrify our vehicular infrastructure 2. Get humans to the Moon, if not to Mars 3. Accelerate the unionization of Silicon Valley tech workers His approach to remote-vs-in-office work is less that of a data-informed futurist and more that of an autocrat. Just as he's loudly supporting public free speech as long as it's his speech, I predict within a few months of taking over Twitter (assuming he doesn't just eat the penalties for dropping out of the agreement) he'll be loudly proclaiming his support of democracy as long as it's not within his companies.
  • causality0 4y ago
    As someone who believes in free speech even for people I despise and opinions I find nauseating, I hate that people like Musk have become the public face of the free speech movement.
    • epistasis 4y ago
      Remember when DeVore got fired from Google, and there was a massive "free speech" outcry? Very odd that it's not happening now. People feel that it's OK to disparage lots of fellow colleagues with bad interpretations of science, but not OK to critique the CEO for specific actions are not a group of people I want to be associated with either, even though I have always been a "free speech" proponent. I just use different terminology.
  • leesec 4y ago
    Why would companies be democratic? That would be an extreme historical rarity
    • nocoolnametom 4y ago
      Unions are democratic, employee-run institutions which promote higher involvement of employees in the operations and logistical planning of companies. I'm not referring to Twitter becoming a Co-op, that would indeed be nearly unprecedented.
• yieldcrv 4y ago
  Ouch given that there were some valid proposals But also valid if people felt pressures to join in on employee activism they don't care about, I’ve seen that trend and I’m totally find curb stomping that whole mentality. I can empathize with the lack of employee power in the US that could lead one to these outcomes, there are other ways (that may not be available to those employees or in the US at all) For Shotwell, I still think it is disingenuous to suggest there aren't other daily distractions people don't get fired for
  • fnimick 4y ago
    "I'm totally fine curb stomping [employee activism]" I knew HN skewed toward tech-bro libertarianism, but this is a bit much even for that.
    • yieldcrv 4y ago
      I said what I said People tried to get corporations to “use their platform”, some started doing that at the annoyance and exclusion of employees that werent interested in having those unrelated causes and discussions in the workday while being told “silence means you’re against us and for whatever we’re against today” The corporation does not exist for that and is a conduit for revenue exclusively Some other type of organization is more suited for that, they exist. It may be incompatible with someone’s ability to exchange time for food and shelter but thats exclusively their problem So its nice to see more examples of complete and immediate excision, a reversion to the mean
      • mikkergp 4y ago
        > The corporation does not exist for that and is a conduit for revenue exclusively As god decreed. Was that on the 5th day? I lost count. Corporations are human creations and as such are malleable.
        • golemotron 4y ago
          The corporate form has been and is now, legally, an enterprise to return financial value to shareholders. Corporations are routinely sued when they stray from that. People with a different vision should change the law rather than be continually surprised.
• alkonaut 4y ago
  Does Elon Musk always ask himself “ok what’s the most petty/childish/immature response I can produce for this situation?” I’m not sure what’s actually wrong with him or if it’s at all clinical or just the billionaire disease of being surrounded by people who agree with you for too long. But I get a feeling there is something a bit off with his behavior and/or mental health, and that it’s been getting worse lately. I also don’t know if this shift is subjective and merely because I see more of him now than before. But I can’t help thinking that now he seems like a massive asshat in nearly every single human interaction whereas before he had some kind of likability.
  • PaulHoule 4y ago
    Some people get really mean when they get senile, particularly if they suffered from anxiety disorders or abused alcohol. It's why home care workers never wear necklaces because they could try to strangle you with one.
    • SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      Given that Elon is Gen X I don't think this something we need to worry about for him just yet. Some other problem, sure, but I doubt it's senility.
      • PaulHoule 4y ago
        He's 51 and some unlucky people start to slip around that age. For a person on that path the meanness and even psychosis might be the first sign.
        • SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
          I think we'd need to prove this is a change for him.
          • PaulHoule 4y ago
            Qualitatively it's not clear. There was that "pedo guy" a few years ago. Quantitatively no doubt. There is a "pedo guy" incident every few days now and it is accelerating and it could be every few minutes before it gets too fast to measure and reaches some kind of singularity. I thought he was just trying to imitate Trump but I think he's really trying to surpass Trump as "America's most unhinged."
• Clent 4y ago
  This company survives on public funding via NASA. This may be the biggest gift they could have given to their competitors. No one will care if their competitors have similar issues, SpaceX was sold as different and the illusion of that is fading.
  • fundad 4y ago
    Agreed and anyone standing up for worker power knows the employer will retaliate because the fee is insignificant.
  • benreesman 4y ago
    Well, no matter how it came about, the US can build rockets again. The best ones in the world. You can pretty much get away with anything if you have a relationship like that with the DoD.
  • golemotron 4y ago
    > This company survives on public funding via NASA. They are doing something NASA can't do so I think NASA is getting good value for the money.
  • danpalmer 4y ago
    > SpaceX was sold as different and the illusion of that is fading Is it really? They're moving faster than anyone else right now, and hitting some good milestones on Starship. They're building a portfolio of business lines from Starlink, through smallsat ridesharing, to super heavy lift and human space flight for commercial and governmental customers. I don't see other space companies catching up soon. The illusion of Musk being some sort of business guru is certainly fading, but I don't feel that SpaceX are losing their edge.
  • modeless 4y ago
    The gift of a bunch of employees who care more about activism than the work? This is not a gift I would ever want to receive. I doubt this affects their ability to win contracts in the slightest. Their biggest competitors are all defense contractors, not exactly more sympathetic to causes like this...
• axg11 4y ago
  This is a very predictable consequence of criticizing your employer via a public letter. Criticize internally all you want, and influence the changes that you want to see happen. Employment is a two-way relationship. If you don't like your employer, you are free to leave. If they don't like you, they are free to fire you (within legal bounds). Publishing an openly critical letter and signing it is a quick way to get your employer to not like you.
  • user_named 4y ago
    They critized Musk, factually. Musk is not their employer, SpaceX is, but you just proved their point since you believe Musk and SpaceX are one and the same.
    • nowherebeen 4y ago
      Musk is the CEO, he has the right to fire any employees that damage the company's reputation. You could argue that Musk is doing it himself and that the employee was simply stating facts, but it doesn't change the fact that the board decide to place him in-charge. Any other CEO would have done the same. It is the board that should be holding him accountable, but they aren't. Most boards today are lame ducks to collect a paycheck. No one is challenging him because he is delivering results (although I would argue it's actually Gwynne Shotwell keeping the shipping sailing). So there's that.
      • djbebs 4y ago
        He owns a controlling position in the company. The board is supposed to do what he wants them to.
        • nowherebeen 4y ago
          In theory, the board can still hold him accountable. There are laws that protect minority shareholders. But those board members will unlikely be around the next year.
      • 4y ago
• keremkacel 4y ago
  Isn't this against some non-retaliation laws?
  • heyflyguy 4y ago
    I would be willing to bet that in the employee handbook it requires that nobody act in a nature that is contrary to the advancement of the company. This most certainly is, and is also likely easily cited as a lack of productivity of the employee while being paid by the company.
    • orangepurple 4y ago
      Illegal policies are not enforced by courts. For instance, forced arbitrarion clauses, no discussions of wages, non-disparagement (Does your company say you aren't allowed to say negative things about the company, whether online or otherwise? Again, this probably violates your right to discuss working conditions), confidential information (if it violates your right to discuss working conditions), or social media prohibitions (if the company social media policy says you aren't allowed to discuss or disparage the company in social media, that may well violate your right to complain about working conditions)
      • heyflyguy 4y ago
        All true but a wrongful termination suit is far less costly than a unionized workforce. I still don’t think it’s wrongful termination but do want to appreciate your point.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  • 0daystock 4y ago
    At will employment. You can be fired anytime for any reason, and there's not much in the way of recourse. Though you also get to quit without notice at such a job.
    • 4y ago
• daenz 4y ago
  >The letter asked SpaceX management to publicly separate the company from Mr. Musk’s personal brand, and to take steps to address what it said was a gap between SpaceX’s stated values and its current systems and company culture. >“Blanketing thousands of people across the company with repeated unsolicited emails and asking them to sign letters and fill out unsponsored surveys during the work day is not acceptable,” So it was a mass internal email chain, using company resources? And it sounds like they were asking Musk to be gone, with plausibly deniability. Is it honestly any surprise that they got fired? Hijacking internal systems for a publicity stunt like this will always put a target on your back.
  • mcguire 4y ago
    Surprised? No. There's no large company in the world where attacking top management won't lead to major consequences. Of course, SpaceX (and Google, along with a stack of other "tech" companies) wasn't supposed to be just another large company; they wanted to disrupt things, and wanted fanatical buy-in from their employees, customers, and fans. (Corporate fans? Really?) It'll take a while, because religions don't die easily, but eventually it will become clear to anyone except the die-hard that it's just another company.
    • daenz 4y ago
      I'm not sure I fully understand your point. Are you saying that because they wanted to be "different", they should allow behavior like this?
      • piva00 4y ago
        Not from what I understand, I understood as they wanted to sell this image of being different and tolerant but are just the usual corporation.
      • taylodl 4y ago
        He's saying SpaceX is just another company. They demand full loyalty (fealty?) from their employees, effectively creating a religion. They shouldn't be surprised when their employees actually expect the company to be different. Now the whole world can see SpaceX is just like Every. Single. Other. Company. So much for "changing the world." You're not changing the corporate world, that's for sure!
• chasd00 4y ago
  Twitter is the worst thing to happen to Musk. The social media addiction knows no class/age/wealth/religious/creed boundary. It’s like social cancer that slowly destroys your relationship to society. Musk has done great things but these days I think he’s at his lowest point. /I’ve said this about three times now in threads like these.
  • onelovetwo 4y ago
    He's at his lowest point in the eyes of the media (which is how most of us see the world) but hes actually at the highest point in his career and achievements. Tesla is about to explode in production with their "biggest building in the world factory" in texas, berlin and china. SpaceX is about to achieve the holy grail of the space industry (an affordable and reusable rocket) not to mention Starlink.
    • pclmulqdq 4y ago
      Tesla has always been "about to explode" in one way or another. When will people realize that manufacturing businesses, when they are limited by property and equipment, are slow-burning? Also, "reusable" doesn't matter as much as "affordable" for rockets. I am waiting for one of the smaller companies with a dirt cheap rocket to eat SpaceX's lunch.
      • joenathanone 4y ago
        Being reusable is the only way to make an affordable rocket.
        • pclmulqdq 4y ago
          That's actually not true. For example, the Russian Soyuz is expected to still have lower cost per kg to LEO than the Falcon rockets from SpaceX. Fuel is the vast majority of the cost of a rocket launch.
          • 4y ago
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• gigatexal 4y ago
  Here’s hoping TSLA shares drop from 6-700 to 200 just because Musk is an ahole
• rg111 4y ago
  Musk talked so much about "free speech" in recent times! This move is embarrassing. You can't just fire people for criticism.
  • pyronik19 4y ago
    You have freedom of speech just not freedom from consequences :)
    • jeffbee 4y ago
      Yeah but what Musk means by it is freedom from consequences.
    • rg111 4y ago
      > freedom from consequences is such a meaningless, bloated phrase. Only consequence of speech should never be more severe than speech. "Freedom from consequences" is a weak argument used by supporters of autocrats, mobocracies, cancel-culturists, religious bigots wanting to punish blasphemous comments, and so on.
      • pyronik19 4y ago
        I am mocking the justification that leftist used censorship and deplatforming by using their own bloated phrase.
        • scollet 4y ago
          And thank God we do.
    • les_diabolique 4y ago
      What's the different between freedom of speech with consequences and not having freedom of speech?
    • MPSimmons 4y ago
      Great, so getting kicked off of twitter is a consequence that people have had. This checks out.
• jmyeet 4y ago
  I'm really starting to wonder if 2022 won't be looked back as the year that Elon finally jumped the shark. A lot of people (myself included) really respect SpaceX and I think that's the last pillar on which Elon's reputation stands. Tesla honestly isn't that interesting and there's a real chance it gets eaten alive as other car manufacturers have caught up. The Cybertruck is still vaporware whereas the F150 Lightning is real and, from what I've seen at least, very highly regarded. What I think is finally giving people Elon fatigue is his politics. The Twitter acquisition is deeply tied to that. He's just another rich cringe conservative. That's it. Coming out and supporting DeSantis, for example, should surprise literally no one. He has a very thin skin (remember the whole "pedo guy" incident?), inflates his own accomplishments (eg claiming he founded Tesla) and honestly just comes off (now more than ever) as just an awful human being. Stories I've heard seem to reflect that SpaceX and Tesla aren't great places to work (at least compared to big tech companies). I really get the sense that people are increasingly getting sick of hearing from or about him. YMMV.
  • justrando 4y ago
    > I really get the sense that people are increasingly getting sick of hearing from or about him. YMMV. I'm just a rando on the internet so maybe not representative, but this uBlock snippet makes anything related to Twitter or Elon invisible on the Guardian front page. Definitely improved my QoL ##.fc-item__container:has-text(/\bElon\b/) ##.fc-item__container:has-text(/\bTwitter\b/)
    • doyouevensunbro 4y ago
      Thank you for this, internet stranger!
  • martythemaniak 4y ago
    Yeah, it's pretty sad. I think what happened is he "crossed the chasm" so to speak and became mainstream. He was famous for his work, which is super interesting and so he was appreciated by a subset of nerds. In the last year or two he bacame famous for his personality, which turned out to be "generic right-wing edge lord". Thing is, there's very few people who can talk in depth about rocket design or actually bring their wild schemes to life and he's one of them. On the other hand, there's a whole spectrum of thousands of celebrity right wing edge lords to choose from if that's your thing and there's absolutely nothing interesting or unique about his take on this.
• stillbourne 4y ago
  For being such a huge proponent of free speech he sure seems to hate it when people talk.
  • Geee 4y ago
    That's not how free speech works. Right to speech freely doesn't give you magical protection from consequences of your speech.
    • Broken_Hippo 4y ago
      "Right to speech freely doesn't give you magical protection from consequences of your speech." You are correct. Money and power does it, though. Your boss won't get fired for talking badly about you, in general, but you can get fired for talking badly about your boss.
      • dionidium 4y ago
        Yes, it's literally and explicitly a hierarchy.
        • guerrilla 4y ago
          Which is pretty illiberal.
    • stillbourne 4y ago
      Oh I absolutely agree, you can view my comment history if you don't believe me. But that is not how Musk has framed his support for free speech in the past. Musk has made it clear that he is "anti-moderation", the case of things like banning Trump from social media with the reasoning that moderation is not free speech. But this kind of behavior is de facto retaliatory employee censorship. You can't have your cake and eat it too, you are either pro free speech or not.
    • huhwat 4y ago
      No, but some speech is protected from consequences. Discussing working conditions is protected speech.
• woojoo666 4y ago
  Sounds like these employees were really pushing it. > The letter upset many staffers, Ms. Shotwell [SpaceX's President] said, saying they felt pressure to “sign onto something that did not reflect their views.” > “We have too much critical work to accomplish and no need for this kind of overreaching activism,” she said in the email.
• SylvieLorxu 4y ago
  Was this the "free speech" dude? Same dude as this? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/03/elon-musk-blogger-tesla-motors-model-x https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/03/elon-musk...
  • jerbearito 4y ago
    LOL. Yeah, that's the "free speech" advocate you're thinking of.
  • jfdbcv 4y ago
    These aren't inconsistent. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences, if said consequences do not restrict future freedom of speech.
    • AlexandrB 4y ago
      For this to be consistent you have to define access to a Twitter account as more important to ones future freedom of speech than being able to put a roof over your head.
      • jfdbcv 4y ago
        False hidden equivance where you asssert that getting fired from SpaceX is the same as being banned from ever taking employment again.
        • scollet 4y ago
          Ok
      • inkblotuniverse 4y ago
        If spacex employed more than 50% of people in America, then...
    • jyriand 4y ago
      Can somebody explain me "free speech"? What does it even mean? Does it mean that you are "free" to speak out whatever you want, but after you have done that, we can decide to punish you? Or does it mean, you can speak out freely without the fear of punishment(consequences)? If I know I will be fired for speaking out, is it still free speech?
• ajaimk 4y ago
  Is this retaliation?
• throwaway17jun 4y ago
• thepasswordis 4y ago
  Good. According to Shotwells response they were basically harassing the rest of the staff and trying to get them to turn on the company. Fire them immediately. Name and shame them so that they have to explain this behavior to their next employer. This type of thing is so toxic and so abusive to everybody they try to suck into it.
  • adolph 4y ago
    > Shotwells response This is the significant part.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• jackmott42 4y ago
  Elon's behavior has gotten so erratic and gross in the last year that I'm done defending him, I am now embarrassed to own a Tesla, and now no longer want to work at SpaceX one day.
  • qaq 4y ago
    So what car would you rather own ? Which car company has owners that align with your values?
    • AlexandrB 4y ago
      I can't even name another car company CEO. Musk brought this kind of reaction on Tesla by closely associating Tesla's brand with his own personal brand. This cuts both ways though and what was once a net positive is starting to turn negative.
      • qaq 4y ago
        It might be turning negative or it might be the info bubble we are in.
• zenlf 4y ago
  > “Blanketing thousands of people across the company with repeated unsolicited emails and asking them to sign letters and fill out unsponsored surveys during the work day is not acceptable,” she said. If this were true, I don’t see a problem here. This is harassment
  • 93po 4y ago
• refurb 4y ago
  I mean if I wrote a letter criticizing my CEO and made it public or just widespread in the company I’d expect to be fired? Typically there are channels to voice criticism internally within a company that don’t involve public statements. And if the answer back is “we disagree with your criticism” I mean the options are: 1) drop it or 2) leave. As the economy falters we’re going to see a lot less coddling of employee behavior that undermines the business itself. I mean Google put up with their own employees complaining publicly about their customers. That wouldn’t fly in any other company.
  • dtjb 4y ago
    I'm sure every person that signed that letter knew they were putting their jobs on the line.
• macinjosh 4y ago
  I tend to like Elon or at least some of his professed ideas and goals but this is gross. Either there is a culture in his companies where people like this are fired without discussion or prodding or it was a direct instruction. I wonder if these employees tried any internal avenues to voice their concerns before going open with it? If not, it seems more like grand-standing and the firings are more acceptable. But if internal discussions were ignored this is out of line.
• freewizard 4y ago
  Travis Kalanick visited a bar with escort services with female employee presence, and he resigned in 2017. Elon Musk exposed himself and propositioned a female employee for sex, he keeps his job in 2022.[1] I feel sorry for the progress of gender equality in Silicon Valley. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-paid-250000-to-a-flight-attendant-who-accused-elon-musk-of-sexual-misconduct-2022-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-paid-250000-to-a-flig...
  • boeingUH60 4y ago
    Kalanick resigned because of a culmination of controversies, not necessarily visiting a bar with escort services. Firing a CEO for purchasing escort services would be quite a low bar to set. Note that I'm not saying I support the act.
• rossdavidh 4y ago
  I'm picturing Apple employees writing an open letter criticizing Steve Jobs and saying they don't want him to be the face of the company, or Amazon employees saying they don't want Jeff Bezos to be the image of the company, or GE employees saying they don't want Jack Welch to be tarnishing the brand of the company, or...just about any other big corporation. The CEO's job involves, among other things, being the public face of the company. If you don't think the CEO is doing their job well, you leave the company, or hunker down and shut up about it. There are people who can fire the CEO if they think he's damaging the company's reputation. They called the "board of directors". If you're not on the board of directors, the way you register displeasure with your CEO is to leave the company.
  • cassac 4y ago
    Finally a post I can agree with.
  • cmsonger 4y ago
    This seems right to me, though I will observe that if you joined an Elon Musk company 5 years ago, then you were joining a company whose head presented a very different public persona than he does now. It's an understandable situation that some folks ended up loving a company but finding the CEO's 2022 public persona objectionable and diminishing of the company. Given the choice between "just leave" or "state my concerns about the company I believed in", I might do the latter. What does one have to lose in that case?
    • fakethenews2022 4y ago
      You are wrong about his public persona. He seems to have always been this way. The first time I heard about Elon Musk was when he responded publicly to his ex wife's tell-all essay about their marriage. This was in 2010!
    • Zpalmtree 4y ago
      a reference
  • masswerk 4y ago
• neonate 4y ago
  https://archive.ph/BfDFr https://archive.ph/BfDFr WSJ https://archive.ph/RSlmu https://archive.ph/RSlmu
• pcmoney 4y ago
  You are paid to work and solve problems not create problems and harass colleagues. If you feel it is worth it to risk your career on a letter do not spend one second of company time on it and do not use a single bit of company technology. Honestly sick of these Prima Donna employees who think they can LARP as activists on company time and equipment. If it is that important to "speak truth to power" do it on your own time.
• atlgator 4y ago
  I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often. Maybe it does and we just don't hear about it. Free speech does not exist within the confines of employment, and there's a big difference between speaking truth to power and inciting mutiny or rebellion. Musk has absolute control of SpaceX, and if employees do not agree with his policies, views, or anything else they need to vote with their feet and quit. Same for any other employer as most of the F100 are becoming increasingly political. Work for a company that aligns with your values if that is important to you.
  • ahelwer 4y ago
    I see this type of comment a lot - "if you don't like it then leave!" - and at best it seems to indicate a lack of vision. Change is possible! First, there are two possible motivations for saying the above: (1) The practical advice sense (an "is" statement): "workers currently have little power in large corporations and so trying to change the company will not succeed and is a waste of time, therefore you should leave" (2) The moral sense (an "ought" statement): "corporate leadership should not respect the opinions or desires of workers; the hierarchy exists for a good reason and should be maintained, and trying to have influence beyond your position in this hierarchy is wrong; therefore you should leave" If you meant your comment in the second sense, fair enough, although you should be explicit so I know we have nothing more to talk about. If you mean it in the first sense then this ignores the option of collective worker organization, which among the oft-touted compensation improvements also gives workers an actual say in the running of their workplace - and certainly the ability to talk about what they want without fear of being fired.
• JaceLightning 4y ago
  Surprising, but good.
• formerkrogemp 4y ago
  When Musk started to spread his bullshit on Twitter, I immediately thought about how the high-profile engineers working for Tesla, SpaceX, etc, would feel about that. My friend works in a tech company composed of 90% engineers, although not that high-profile, still if a CEO would publicly voice all that crap, I’m sure many would seriously consider resigning. In the end, it’s not that difficult to find another job. If I were a tech company recruiter now, I would 100% go shopping for musk companies’ employees right now… As a recruiter, you could seriously poach some amazing talent just because Elon can’t keep his fucking mouth shut. They aren’t idiots over there, and Elon should realize that most of the people working for him are likely much, much, much smarter than he is.
• mysore 4y ago
  seems kinda hypocritical. would be scared to go to mars with this guy.
  • oneoff786 4y ago
    He’ll be dead before then
    • scollet 4y ago
      Thank gods.
  • sam_goody 4y ago
    I don't see why it is hypocritical. I am pro free speech, but would never dream of using company resources to try to publicly embarrass my CEO. And certainly not when the issue at hand is not related to company performance. > would be scared to go to mars with this guy. Anyone who is against Musk will add this to their litany of complaints. Anyone who loves him will be baffled why this is a story ;) As an aside, even negative publicity is publicity, and I imagine that this whole Twitter deal will lose Elon gobs of cash, but make his other companies more valuable. "Distancing themselves from Elon Musk", from a purely capitalist perspective, sounds like a bad bet.
    • scollet 4y ago
      > would never dream of using company resources Have you tried considering that you have no spinal column?
• thepasswordis 4y ago
  What’s so funny about these types of stories is that they’re always about the response to some action, and not the action itself. What is Elon doing in public that’s so bad, exactly? He’s against authoritarian governments? The horror!
• daheza 4y ago
  Really soldified my stance that I should never work for a company where Musk is involved.
• toomanyrichies 4y ago
  To those arguing that this letter is tantamount to insubordination and is therefore a fireable offense: “Insubordination (noun)- refusing to obey orders from someone in authority.” [1] Unless they had received direct orders not to criticize Musk at all, internally or externally, they are not guilty of refusing to obey orders. And if they had received such orders, that only adds to Musk’s burgeoning reputation for pettiness and immaturity, in which case these are the kinds of orders one could be forgiven for disobeying. The whole point of the letter seems to have been “Musk’s behavior is detrimental to the company.” This implies that they care about the company and want it to succeed, and that their loyalty lies with it, not with Musk. As well it should. Tesla, SpaceX, etc are (or should be) companies, not cults. 1. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/insubordination https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/insub...
  • hunterb123 4y ago
    • MPSimmons 4y ago
      Could you please define "woke culture" for me?
      • hunterb123 4y ago
        • pclmulqdq 4y ago
          Wait, this is exactly what Elon Musk himself does. Remember the whole "pedo guy" incident? And all of the Musk noise recently about being conservative and buying twitter?
          • monkey_monkey 4y ago
            "One rule for he, another rule for thee"
• nsxwolf 4y ago
  I can't imagine trashing my CEO and expecting to keep my job. Maybe that's a Gen-X thing?
  • JaimeThompson 4y ago
    Maybe they actually believed his statements regarding unlimited free speech. It's not backed by evidence but SpaceX does attract dreamers.
    • mft_ 4y ago
      I don’t think any definition of free speech guarantees total freedom from repercussions?
      • jcranmer 4y ago
        Isn't that the definition of free speech that Musk wants for Twitter?
        • psyc 4y ago
          The purpose of Twitter is speech. People like Musk argue it is analogous to a public space. Twitter users don't work for Twitter and are not subordinates of Twitter. Do you also imagine that Musk believes service people ought to be allowed to mock their superior officers to their faces without repercussions?
          • mywittyname 4y ago
            Musk got someone fired from a job because they once worked for the SEC. So I imagine Musk believes anyone who causes him displeasure, in any form, even by association, should be put in their place by measures including, and up to, loss of livelihood. I'm not so sure he gives a damn about anyone in the military, unless they run afoul of the ideas presented in previous statement.
            • 4y ago
• beardyw 4y ago
  Has the title changed? For me it says "SpaceX fires employees who wrote letter slamming Musk’s “embarrassing” behavior"
• ctvo 4y ago
  SpaceX now has an MO: Protect Elon at all costs. 250,000 USD paid to keep a corporate jet flight attendant quiet about alleged sexual harassment by Elon and now the immediate firing of employees asking the company to clarify Elon's views don't reflect SpaceX's views or its culture. There can't even be a hint of criticism of Elon.
• j_walter 4y ago
  Based on what management said it wasn't necessarily what was in the letter, but the behavior surrounding the formation of the letter and soliciting people to sign it. Basically they were fired for using company resources for personal use and intimidation of their peers.
  • ctvo 4y ago
    > Basically they were fired for using company resources for personal use and intimidation of their peers. Knowing that this would be leaked and make news, they could have framed the letter to all employees in the best possible way for the company (both PR and HR). Let's hold out and see what SpaceX insiders and the fired employees actually say.
    • j_walter 4y ago
      No doubt they could have done it better, but all we know right now is the contents of the letter. What we don't know is how they went about soliciting signatures and so called surveys of employees (likely management won't release this detailed information either). The fired employees won't tell you what really happened...more than likely they will play the victims in this. The details may only come out once a lawsuit is filed.
  • wmeredith 4y ago
    > using company resources for personal use and intimidation of their peers That sounds like their CEO.
    • vkou 4y ago
      He doesn't intimidate his peers, he intimidates his lessers. It's conservatism in a nutshell. The end game is a class of people protected by the rules, but not bound by them, and another class that's bound by them, but not protected.
      • AlexandrB 4y ago
        “For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.”
• trident5000 4y ago
  And the sky is blue
• rubyist5eva 4y ago
• ceejayoz 4y ago
  "Stay focused" is a little funny from the guy behind the SpaceX flamethrower, Neuralink, OpenAI, the Boring Company, and a $40B attempt to buy Twitter.
  • breitling 4y ago
    Plus a little thing called Tesla
    • ceejayoz 4y ago
      Well, that (and SpaceX) are where Musk is supposed to be keeping his focus.
      • polartx 4y ago
        >supposed to? According to whom? If that admonishment had the desired effect and had occurred in his PayPal days, we wouldn’t have SpaceX, Tesla, etc etc etc
        • lanstin 4y ago
          He was fired from PayPal so not really an equal comparison.
        • magicalist 4y ago
          His time at PayPal was not concurrent with SpaceX and Tesla.
        • corrral 4y ago
          > According to whom? This letter. Unless mere mortal workers staying focused is more important than the God-CEO staying focused. In which case, maybe compensation needs a serious re-think.
    • scollet 4y ago
      So forget the actual engineers. Okay, asshole PoS.
• throwaway5752 4y ago
  SpaceX leadership is clearly within their legal rights to fire these people, but the classic "CAN vs SHOULD" principle is important. The letter, which is pretty benign, is available at the bottom of https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk-internal-open-letter-behavior https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk... The letter is insubordination, it is fireable, and the employees that wrote it are also correct. Elon Musk would likely get fired for his behavior if he were a different executive - certainly disciplined - and that's a problem for SpaceX (and Tesla, and Twitter). It makes it seem like he's not accountable to anyone. Steve Jobs would not have done behaved this way publicly, nor would any other singular founder/execs I can think of at his level.
• 3327 4y ago
• tlogan 4y ago
  It seems that what is happening here is that “woke” people (ultra left) working at spaceX and Tesla are finally realizing that Elon Musk is actually not part of the “woke” (ultra-left) movement but more like good old Republican. So they are angry and they want to explain that to others. On the other hand, some people know that there is no “woke” white rich guy.
• taylodl 4y ago
  I thought Elon Musk was being hailed as the champion of "free speech?" Hmmm. Maybe not. Regardless of what people say their actions always betray them. I have no idea why people idolize Elon Musk when he has repeatedly shown us what he is. Then again the same is true for Donald Trump. I honestly don't understand it.
• garg 4y ago
  The employees specifically criticized Musk as being a 'distraction' due to his recent antics, and now they're being fired for not 'staying focused'
  • throwoutway 4y ago
    Do two distractions make it right?
• solardev 4y ago
  The actual letter, published by The Verge: https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk-internal-open-letter-behavior https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk... ===================== An open letter to the Executives of SpaceX, In light of recent allegations against our CEO and his public disparagement of the situation, we would like to deliver feedback on how these events affect our company’s reputation, and through it, our mission. Employees across the spectra of gender, ethnicity, seniority, and technical roles have collaborated on this letter. We feel it is imperative to maintain honest and open dialogue with each other to effectively reach our company’s primary goals together: making SpaceX a great place to work for all, and making humans a multiplanetary species. As SpaceX employees we are expected to challenge established processes, rapidly innovate to solve complex problems as a team, and use failures as learning opportunities. Commitment to these ideals is fundamental to our identity and is core to how we have redefined our industry. But for all our technical achievements, SpaceX fails to apply these principles to the promotion of diversity, equity, and inclusion with equal priority across the company, resulting in a workplace culture that remains firmly rooted in the status quo. Individuals and groups of employees at SpaceX have spent significant effort beyond their technical scope to make the company a more inclusive space via conference recruiting, open forums, feedback to leadership, outreach, and more. However, we feel an unequal burden to carry this effort as the company has not applied appropriate urgency and resources to the problem in a manner consistent with our approach to critical path technical projects. To be clear: recent events are not isolated incidents; they are emblematic of a wider culture that underserves many of the people who enable SpaceX’s extraordinary accomplishments. As industry leaders, we bear unique responsibility to address this. Elon’s behavior in the public sphere is a frequent source of distraction and embarrassment for us, particularly in recent weeks. As our CEO and most prominent spokesperson, Elon is seen as the face of SpaceX—every Tweet that Elon sends is a de facto public statement by the company. It is critical to make clear to our teams and to our potential talent pool that his messaging does not reflect our work, our mission, or our values. SpaceX’s current systems and culture do not live up to its stated values, as many employees continue to experience unequal enforcement of our oft-repeated “No Asshole” and “Zero Tolerance” policies. This must change. As a starting point, we are putting forth the following categories of action items, the specifics of which we would like to discuss in person with the executive team within a month: Publicly address and condemn Elon’s harmful Twitter behavior. SpaceX must swiftly and explicitly separate itself from Elon’s personal brand. Hold all leadership equally accountable to making SpaceX a great place to work for everyone. Apply a critical eye to issues that prevent employees from fully performing their jobs and meeting their potential, pursuing specific and enduring actions that are well resourced, transparent, and treated with the same rigor and urgency as establishing flight rationale after a hardware anomaly. Define and uniformly respond to all forms of unacceptable behavior. Clearly define what exactly is intended by SpaceX’s “no-asshole” and “zero tolerance” policies and enforce them consistently. SpaceX must establish safe avenues for reporting and uphold clear repercussions for all unacceptable behavior, whether from the CEO or an employee starting their first day. We care deeply about SpaceX’s mission to make humanity multiplanetary. But more importantly, we care about each other. The collaboration we need to make life multiplanetary is incompatible with a culture that treats employees as consumable resources. Our unique position requires us to consider how our actions today will shape the experiences of individuals beyond our planet. Is the culture we are fostering now the one which we aim to bring to Mars and beyond? We have made strides in that direction, but there is so much more to accomplish.
• jfengel 4y ago
  I've owned TSLA stock for over a decade, and I believe in the company, but I find Musk increasingly distasteful. If I had sold the last time it was over $1,000... of course that's the silly wishful thinking we all do in a contraction/correction, but goddamn, I want him out of my life. I've already sold some of it, just to assuage my conscience a little (as well as lock in some of my profits). The next good opportunity to get out, I will, regardless of my belief that the company could well be worth $2,000 a share. It's just not worth being associated with such a terrible human being.
  • jelliclesfarm 4y ago
    I am beginning to find his erratic behaviour distasteful too. But I think in this case(if the news articles are accurate), SpaceX actions were not entirely unjustified. It is an internal matter of a private company. Free speech is a constitutional right that applies to every individual. Employment contracts and terms of it do not have to adhere to it.
  • new_stranger 4y ago
    Maybe I've read to much history, or maybe I just need to pay more attention to Musk, but I'm pretty sure he isn't anywhere close to the category of "Terrible Human Being" I have in mind - even for the West.
    • jfengel 4y ago
      He's not guilty of genocide, or even murder, so there's certainly much higher bars that can be set. But I have a deep aversion to trolls. They cause pain deliberately. That pain is diffuse and hard to account, but so widespread that (a little bit) times (a lot) adds up to a large number. And I think it's pretty clear that Musk enjoys inflicting pain on people. Perhaps that's too low a bar to set for the title of "terrible human being". But that's my bar, and he sails right over it. I tried to ignore it for a very long time, and I'm not sure how much longer I can. He's also running a company that is making enormous strides in getting the world off of fossil fuels -- and pushing others to do the same. (I have quibbles with continuing the multiple-cars-per-household lifestyle, which I think will need to be reconsidered if we're going to stabilize our effect on the environment, but at least he's doing something -- and it includes reducing fossil fuels in areas besides transportation.) And he's running a company that is revolutionizing space transport. I don't believe in his goals there, but I think good will come of it. He's doing it for real, not just running his mouth off. And yet, on balance, he's contributing to an American social climate which keeps nudging closer to literal civil war. You probably think that's hyperbolic, and perhaps it is, but it's undeniable that its making a lot of people angry a lot of the time. He's in a position to know better, and it looks to me as if he enjoys it. To me, that merits the designation "terrible human being". You can legitimately disagree with that, but I think we can agree on the reasons I say it.
• iamleppert 4y ago
  • 0goel0 4y ago
  • quasarj 4y ago
    Dang, sounds like your workers need to unionize haha.
  • tacoooooooo 4y ago
  • schmeckleberg 4y ago
  • corrral 4y ago
    I'm going to bookmark this post to point people to when someone asks me what Poe's Law is.
    • guerrilla 4y ago
      I flagged it...There's no indication its ironic.
      • dubswithus 4y ago
        Not flag worthy. Just reality most people hate the woke drama llamas.
        • deleted 4y ago
          [deleted]
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  • 4y ago
• karaterobot 4y ago
  The contents of the letter quoted in that article are all moral allegations, but not new ones, and not presenting novel evidence of any wrongdoing. Whatever Musk has done, or whatever kind of person he is, it's all well understood and settled from a business perspective. Despite his antics, Musk hasn't gotten fired — far from it — and won't get fired for old news. So, their letter (at least what's quoted in that article) amounts to: "yes, but the CEO's behavior is not to our liking, somebody should do something about it." What would possess someone to believe that would work? It feels like the kind of thing that, ironically, might work on Twitter, but not in the real world.
• outside1234 4y ago
• kspacewalk2 4y ago
  >The letter asked SpaceX management to publicly separate the company from Mr. Musk’s personal brand. This is not realistic. It will not happen. Elon Musk is the founder, chairman, CEO and CTO. He owns 47% of the company and 78% of voting control. A company you work for is not a democracy. You are not an owner. You don't get to call out, to make governance decisions, to create pressure campaigns, etc. This is doubly true for privately held companies. It would be truly bizarre if these employees weren't fired for this wannabe activism routine. In short, go launch your own damn satellites.
  • guerrilla 4y ago
    > This is not realistic. It will not happen. Elon Musk is the founder, chairman, CEO and CTO. He owns 47% of the company and 78% of voting control. You do realize this was true of most blue chips at some point in history right? Know who those people and their cults are now? No? Right, nobody does.
    • kspacewalk2 4y ago
      >Know who those people and their cults are now? No? Right, nobody does. I also don't know who the unhappy underling people in those companies were. Nobody does, and nobody did at the time either (that's the difference).
• mr90210 4y ago
  Elon is becoming a joke. For a person who had such a big vision, he surely appears to spend too much time voicing himself on Twitter, thus exposing his less good thoughts (which we all have).
• mike10921 4y ago
  I have worked at companies where I was entirely in disagreement with the senior staff's political views. I never sent any letters or complained about it. We had a great relationship. My job was to provide value to the company while their job was to pay me for my job. If I felt it was too much for me to listen to their political views I always had the choice to leave.
• midislack 4y ago
  • dubswithus 4y ago
    The problem is these people think they have a right to work at a company.
    • scollet 4y ago
• mc32 4y ago
  I mean, this whole bruhaha was spearheaded by five (5!) people. Articles were presenting this as if it had been representative of a larger portion of the workforce there. I think companies are realizing "activist" workers are a disruption that suck productivity from a company and are taking steps to dial that down, including progressive stalwarts like Netflix.
  • anonporridge 4y ago
    Serious question, why wouldn't that include a CEO who is increasingly making public political commentary? I agree that activist workers are a problem for productivity, but the same could be said for activist CEOs.
    • potatototoo99 4y ago
      Musk's outspoken behavior is probably a big part of the reason his companies are so valuable.
      • warning26 4y ago
        I'd argue that it was, right up until his goal evidently shifted from things like "making humanity a multiplanetary species" to "owning the libs"
        • anonporridge 4y ago
          Honestly, I suspect he's just trying to appease conservatives to make them more likely to buy EVs. If that's the case, it's not a bad strategy. They're easy to manipulate into thinking you're on their side if you say the right soundbites. And they're the toughest group of consumers to get on the green tech train. Musk could be acting as a chameleon in an attempt to simply get some of them to accept the reality of climate change.
          • aaronbrethorst 4y ago
            I think it's much more likely that the explanation is adjacent to Hanlon's razor.
• pvaldes 4y ago
  To put things in context, the astonishing amount of five employees were fired. And more than 9400 employees weren't fired. It sounds like most Space X employees are doing fine. And we are talking about an example of "soviet management" here?
  • Qem 4y ago
    Surely they feel a bit intimidated now. The Stasi also left a lot of people alive in East Germany as well, doing just fine.
    • pvaldes 4y ago
      This case reminds me more the classic boycott handbooks. A tiny group of people sparking the flames of revolution for no reason, maybe desperately trying to get the attention of Musk, maybe for profit. This people can sink a startup really fast. The kind of people drawing caricatures of the CEO where they should be doing calculus on critical parts of the system. Letting they go is the correct move. They are 100% free to fund a better, more moral and more ethic Space-Z with their own money and promote a CEO that they like more.
    • foepys 4y ago
      You are forgetting that the Stasi needed quite a lot of concrete and border guards to keep people from leaving and that the whole thing collapsed in the end in a peaceful revolution because the people didn't want to take it anymore.
  • srveale 4y ago
    We have no idea how many other employees agreed with the five, and the point is that we'll never know, because the precedent of "speak up and you're fired" has now been set. Being an autocrat doesn't mean getting rid of everyone who disagrees with you, just the ones who dare to do something about it (or potentially might).
    • badwolf 4y ago
      over 400 other employees signed the letter before it was taken down. https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/17/23172913/spacex-complaint-letter-firing-elon-musk https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/17/23172913/spacex-complaint...
• draw_down 4y ago
• jiveturkey 4y ago
  It's a fair criticism, albeit written with an entitled flavor. Where these 5 employees went wrong was in writing it as an internal memo, and attempting to rouse the rabble. That's clearly unacceptable and they misjudged how swift and certain the reaction would be. I do wonder what they were expecting. Where they went wrong was by posting their criticism as an internal memo using internal resources. They should have taken to twitter.
• cratermoon 4y ago
  Because of course they did. Elon is that kind of boss.
• Aeolun 4y ago
  Damn, SpaceX sounds like a company I would never want to work for. What a horrible atmosphere. Who wants to be bullied by people that do not understand the irony of calling the sending of that open letter as distracting.
• rootusrootus 4y ago
  This is entirely predictable, and they should have expected it. But it does not mean that Musk isn't an asshole for having them all fired.
• dboreham 4y ago
  We should probably read the letter then.
• avl999 4y ago
  Musk is a total snowflake who cosplays as some sort of defender of free speech.
• gigel82 4y ago
• guerrilla 4y ago
  Seems pretty consistent. He's big into pretending to be for freedom of speech and never being for it if it ever actually matters. I see a lot of people here saying any billionaire boss would do the same, well, yes, that's the point, but the thing is that he very consistently and incessantly lies about not being like those "other" people and being for principles that he has never once stood for in reality. I don't recall Steve Jobs blathering about "free speech" on podcats and Twitter. [edit] p.s. Did anyone read the comments here before posting? It's just the same comments over and over and over and over again, wtf is this shit. Can't we do better?
  • schmeckleberg 4y ago
    The Facts that you have presented to the Elon defense force gave the Elon defense force uncomfortable Feelings. Not Respecting the very important and precious Feelings of the Elon defense force and their meme coin twitter daddy is just about the very worst thing you can do! I hope that you will moderate your wrongthink in the future, comrade!
• 99_00 4y ago
  >Elon’s behavior in the public sphere is a frequent source of distraction and embarrassment for us, particularly in recent weeks. What happened in recent weeks? The letter is condemnation by innuendo. They don't say exactly why they want Musk removed and only hint at it and make general statements. An advantage of that approach is that it is difficult for the accused to defend themselves. The disadvantage is that if the accused has power they can squash this and the accusers are exposed because vague accusations are difficult to justify as they are to defend against. I suspect they don't say why they want Musk removed because their reasons stated clearly and directly would be unpalatable. I think the reason they want him removed is because he expressed support for the Republican party. In the USA, in many circles, it is still unacceptable to condemn people based on political affiliation. It is however, more acceptable to use innuendo about racial and sexual rights as a weapon for indirect political persecution.
• kerblang 4y ago
  One of the demands from the letter: > Define and uniformly respond to all forms of unacceptable behavior. Clearly define what exactly is intended by SpaceX’s “no-asshole” and “zero tolerance” policies and enforce them consistently. That's exactly the problem with companies that like to brag about their "we-don't-allow-jerks-here" culture: It's arbitrary. If you focus on creating a culture of objectivity, facts and honesty, you'll solve most of your jerk problems without having to figure out what "jerk" means. Given as much, if this is really about Mr Musk's political endorsements, folks need to get over it. But inasmuch as he embraces dishonesty (one example: the "pedo" incident from way back) then I'd agree that the company should discipline him.
  • rajin444 4y ago
    > If you focus on creating a culture of objectivity, facts and honesty, you'll solve most of your jerk problems without having to figure out what "jerk" means. I dunno, jerk is arbitrarily defined by society. There’s no objective way to define it - which is why most companies that do end up on “whatever behavior makes us the most money”, ie acquiescing to power.
    • therealdrag0 4y ago
      I’d go further, a lot of people obsessed with “facts” and “honest” is a recipe for jerks. “I’m just being honest” is a common justification for being a jerk. A no-jerks culture is one where you know how to pick your battles and where you can let other people be wrong when it keeps the peace and doesn’t actually matter.
  • tmp_anon_22 4y ago
    It doesn't help that the CEO on Twitter has multiple times presented the exact behavior mentioned.
    • kerblang 4y ago
      Well I'd like to see examples of the dishonest tweets you're talking about... But that leads into a more important issue: These employees insisted that Musk's personal Twitter account is his de facto business Twitter account. Confusing this business/personal boundary is part of the problem. I don't think it's fair for them to say, "You're a public figure, so you're not allowed to have a personal life," but perhaps Mr Musk does need to clarify his boundaries.
• sbf501 4y ago
  I know most of HN wasn't even born when this happened, but from 1990 onwards, Jerry Sanders III, the then-CEO (& founder) of AMD created a similar schism in his company. A the time he was presiding over an industry that was seen as disrupter-AMD taking on villain-Intel. Sanders always had a giant ego and a lust of showing off and thumping his chest. We all took this with an eyeroll, well, some of us did. At one point it was too much, had a bunch of internal promotional posters and flyers made depicting himself as a buff Indian Jones whipping Intel, while his playboy-bunny wife looked on longingly at her hero. Many AMD employees literally saw him as a muscled hero savior and themselves as victims, like Rambo-Trump photoshops of today, or the sycophantic adulation of Musk worshipers. This lead to people picking sides: Sanders had so distracted his employees with his mouth and antics by creating a schism where some people were like "knock off the rich-guy BS", while others were like, "Go get 'em!". It created a lot of internal conflict. I was only there for a while, but it was amazing how you couldn't do your job without some image of Sanders as hero being shoved in your face by some fan employee. I can relate to the SpaceX employees, having a mercurial asshat for a boss is tedious, even if the pay is great. But AMD was floundering technologically at that time, and it wasn't until Sanders FINALLY stepped down that AMD really took Intel to task: beating them to 1 GHz and 64-bit processing. I can only imagine the brain-drain due to his asshole behavior was the problem, but that's just my $0.01.
• pardesi 4y ago
  I am amazed by so many who are defending Musk for his actions. I hope they would consider working for him in one of his companies & enjoy a life of subordinateship. Afterall Musk needs such workers - smart, hard working & yet someone who doesnt question him. I think dictator is the nearest term for it in the dictionary?
• kenneth 4y ago
  I am personally thrilled to see a company stand up to cancel culture and political employee activism. The ridiculous non-work related distractions from employee on various political crusades we've been seeing at many companies like Google are one of the things ruining Silicon Valley. It's nice to see Elon not allowing it at his companies, and Coinbase in being another standout against this silliness.
  • sergiomattei 4y ago
    How is this cancel culture?
    • tim333 4y ago
      “SpaceX must swiftly and explicitly separate itself from Elon’s personal brand,” sounds a bit like cancel Elon.
      • strathmeyer 4y ago
        Usually canceling means getting someone fired, guess it's all projection from these people.
        • tim333 4y ago
          Sounds like they'd like him fired. Having seen the full text of the letter it has a bit "But for all our technical achievements, SpaceX fails to apply these principles to the promotion of diversity, equity, and inclusion with equal priority across the company, resulting in a workplace culture that remains firmly rooted in the status quo." Which sounds quite cancel culture. (letter https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/read-spacex-employees-open-letter-to-company-executives-criticising-elon-musks-behaviour/articleshow/92273294.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/read-spacex...)
  • ganoushoreilly 4y ago
    I think we're on the tail end of Extreme activism working within organizations. Everyone talks about the pendulum swinging and I think with economic downturns, people will find out really quickly how fast it can swing back.
• traveler01 4y ago
  How they didn't see that coming it's astonishing.
• cm42 4y ago
  [flagged]
• bell-cot 4y ago
  Ignore all the employment rules lawyering, and "Elon is for free speech..." / "SpaceX's mission says...", etc. arguments. This is not a computer program, nor a debating society. Humans, especially most top corporate executives, are definitely primates. Some lower-down members of the SpaceX troop issued (de facto) a very clear and public challenge to the dominance of the troop's alpha macho male 900# gorilla. They failed to get a chorus of overwhelming support from other members of the troop. They don't appear to have any serious 900# backers from outside the troop. Can anyone give an example of such a situation ending well for the challengers?
• vhiremath4 4y ago
  FYI - arstechnica thread also here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31774890 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31774890
• squarefoot 4y ago
  At every place I've worked at there were rules on the contract I signed that forbade me to engage in any activity that could be detrimental to the company public image, and I'm sure SpaceX contracts contain such clause too, so technically they can fire those people, but doing so at first strike and without warnings is pure evil and is the sign of just another company in which executives live in a different universe than their workers. > Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX’s president, said the letter had made other employees “feel uncomfortable, intimidated and bullied.” This is absolute bollocks. Feeling intimidated and bullied because some colleagues criticized the CEO? Come on...
  • concordDance 4y ago
    Wasn't just criticizing the CEO: https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk-internal-open-letter-behavior https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/16/23170228/spacex-elon-musk...
• not2b 4y ago
  Just shows that Musk has no actual interest in free speech. But SpaceX is a private company and is free to fire employees for their speech, you say. That's true, they can legally do that, since there's no union contract, but Twitter is also a private company and free not to publish speech that advocates the overthrow of the government or vaccine denial. My prediction is that a Musk-owned Twitter will wind up banning posts or even accounts for criticizing Musk too aggressively, since the guy has thin skin and will have the power.
• arooni 4y ago
  If you come for the king, you had better not miss.
• Abroszka 4y ago
  Of course they were fired. It's a dictatorship, you do what they tell you and work. There is no point getting this involved with the company, it never pays off. Work as little as possible to maximise your gains, and invest in other aspects of your life.
• dshpala 4y ago
  The open letter wanted to “publicly address and condemn Elon’s harmful Twitter behavior”. It's only a small step until these activists start demanding similar things regarding random public people they don't like. Like DeSantis. Surely any sane leadership would condemn DeSantis' harmful behavior? I hope firings will continue until this kind of activism subsides.
• sashu123 4y ago
  Glad to finally see a CEO acting like a monarch and not a pathetic wimp. We need more such companies to restore order in the society
• bitwize 4y ago
  My parents ran a small factory in the 1970s. One of their employees was a hippie who kept ranting about how they were a part of "the system". About him they said "We had to fire that guy" because his attitude toward his employers indicated he couldn't be relied on to do the job that was asked of him. Elon Musk can make a grade-A ass of himself, but within the bounds of the law to work for him is to serve at his pleasure. Complaining about him and NOT expecting the potential axe is madness.
• bobobob420 4y ago
  "The letter called the billionaire’s public behavior and tweeting “a frequent source of distraction and embarrassment” and asked the company to rein him in" Lmao thats pretty funny tbh. Employees should be allowed to say what they want but the firing was to be expected and maybe some of the employees learned unfortunately they do not have the power they thought they had.
• dqpb 4y ago
  Ah, the ever present amusement of action and consequence. If you criticize your employer, expect to get fired. Just got fired? What do you care, you don’t like your employer anyway. Just fired everyone smart enough to criticize you? Enjoy your dwindling years with the team of incompetent cronies. This is a perfect snapshot of the human condition.
• a-dub 4y ago
  i uninstalled twitter off my phone to stop the elon musk notifications. i guess i'll miss out on his future crowdsource pump and dumps, but that's pretty sketch anyhow. i have a lot of respect for tesla and what they've done, i'll be able to maintain that respect with the tweets squelched.
• neonsunset 4y ago
  Considering Elon's modus operandi "Does it help to set up a colony on Mars?" the course of action was predictable. I also welcome left-leaning people to research hardline right to have a reality check and realize he's taking pretty centrist stance.
• more_corn 4y ago
  Firing people for speaking out against the boss’s childish public behavior. What message does that send? Don’t speak out about things you disagree with? This is not the company we want taking us to Mars.
• etchalon 4y ago
  It seems like every "diversity of thought!" and "freedom of speech!" proponent keeps having a moment where it's revealed that isn't what they actually believe.
• WalterBright 4y ago
  In my younger and stupider days, I made some ill considered criticisms of my boss. I was lucky I wasn't fired on the spot.
  • scollet 4y ago
    No one is above reproach.
• stmfreak 4y ago
  I am so glad to see this rational response to the woke mind virus at work. Politicize and campaign on your own time. I’ve had to keep my mouth shut at work for decades. Time the fanatical left learn the same.
• sk8terboi 4y ago
  They need critical race theory training at spacex. That would solve this.
• bshoemaker 4y ago
  Free speech for me but not for thee.
• aaronsimpson 4y ago
  The amount of Elon charity in this comment section is kind of insane: > In an email, Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX’s president, said the letter had made other employees “feel uncomfortable, intimidated and bullied.” It's literally the same thing wokescolds do when somebody says anything they disagree with, only this time it's SpaceX and Elon Musk. There's not really any good argument for somebody who claims to care about free speech. "It's a private company. They can fire whoever they want so long as it's not a protected class." And Twitter is a private company that can ban anybody they want. Don't like it? Go to Mastodon. Usually this argument doesn't fly for the people that defend his Twitter free speech position.
  • jgfidosgfds 4y ago
• gm3dmo 4y ago
  Champion of free speech only goes so far eh?
• Gatsky 4y ago
  Anecdotally companies run by obvious assholes (eg Ellison and Oracle) or that engage in obviously bad behaviour (eg Big Tobacco) don’t have these problems. I guess their reputations filter out the type of employee who would do what was done at SpaceX.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• wewtyflakes 4y ago
  ITT: A lot of temporarily embarrassed billionaires.
• qsdf38100 4y ago
  Freedom of speech isn’t Freedom from consequences… Sure. Now musk isn’t known for being accountable nor responsible. He doesn’t seem to like being held accountable for his shady tweets too much, does he?
• wolverine876 4y ago
  > In an email, Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX’s president, said the letter had made other employees “feel uncomfortable, intimidated and bullied.” Whatever the situation, this is just brazen propaganda techniques. How shameful and obvious. I'm a little surprised it hasn't been called out in this discussion.
  • banannaise 4y ago
    Unfortunately, tech bro culture has a lot of people who agree with her sentiment. You can't say that tech bro culture makes "outsiders" feel uncomfortable, intimidated, and bullied, because that makes the tech bros feel uncomfortable, intimidated, and bullied.
• tomohawk 4y ago
  "distraction and embarrassment" That was the accusation by the former employees, but that seems more like projection. The small gang behind this is an embarrassment and causing distraction, and little else. These 5 or so clowns also: > made other staff feel "uncomfortable, intimidated and bullied, and/or angry because the letter pressured them to sign onto something that did not reflect their views. https://www.reuters.com/technology/spacex-fires-employees-involved-letter-rebuking-musk-nyt-2022-06-17/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/spacex-fires-employees-in...
• taco_philips 4y ago
• anothernewdude 4y ago
  > In an email, Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX’s president, said the letter had made other employees “feel uncomfortable, intimidated and bullied.” I don't think that was the letter, I think that was the firing.
• RickJWagner 4y ago
  "tells staff to avoid activism" I can't wait until this catches on and professionalism once again rules the workplace. Activism in the workplace is divisive and tiring.
• FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
  Why does this shit never happen at Philip Morris, Smith & Wesson, or ExxonMobil? If Elon just watched his mouth he could import fentanyl and nobody would complain.
• lol_u_cuck 4y ago
• throwawayway88 4y ago
• eggy 4y ago
  How would we have made it to the moon, if employees took surveys, sent letters, and posted numerous signs about their disagreement with upper management? Why do they work there then? I don't see how Elon has really changed much since 5 or 8 years ago to have fooled anyone who signed on for the company's mission. He wants to go to Mars. If he makes them uncomfortable, these people should not be in mission-critical positions, and possibly not at SpaceX.
  • jackmott42 4y ago
    https://astronomy.com/news/2018/10/apollo-7-nasas-first-mini-mutiny-in-space https://astronomy.com/news/2018/10/apollo-7-nasas-first-mini...
• tim333 4y ago
  Full text of the letter here https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/read-spacex-employees-open-letter-to-company-executives-criticising-elon-musks-behaviour/articleshow/92273294.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/gadgets-news/read-spacex...
• notSupplied 4y ago
  The comparison to "cancelling" is coming up a lot, but I think this is a reasonably simple way to distinguish the two: Employment requires sustained two-way consent. An employer should not have to pay someone money only to have that person make their lives more difficult than otherwise. Just as an employee should be free to quit a company whose goals they find disagreeable. Cancelling is when a 3rd party comes into an otherwise consensual employer-employee relationship (or publisher-author relationship, really any business relationship) and demanding that to end.
• magicroot75 4y ago
  Musk believed he needed to compel people back into the office to get what he wanted. These employees believed it was worth it to speak out. Both parties were capable of understanding the consequences of their speech. And none of those consequences were unethical or or even disproportionate to their cause. I'm not sure there's even anything to talk about here. There's no right or wrong to people's preferences for their workers' jobsite presence. And there's no right or wrong to public disagreement. In fact, this is a public market disagreement that will happen for years to come.