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My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi
- francisofascii 5y agoYou can't start your dishwasher until you watch this 15 second ad. Or pay $200 more for the ad-free version.
- notsgnik 5y agomy android phones did the same. even if I have a data enabled sim card, I wasn't able to update anything without connecting to some Wi-Fi at least once :/ what's next? not able to use toilet paper until you download an app ? ps: they're all android one ( meaning, no extra editing of the OS from the constructor )
- EricE 5y agoStuff like this is why I'm starting to wonder if I need to hoard non-connected appliances now before they aren't available any more. I certainly have zero intention of ever buying a new car again either. I hope to be buried with my late 90's/early 2000's "dumb" cars :p
- pettycashstash2 5y agoI recently Purchased a 2021 Chevy Traverse. The salesman had me sit through the OnStar intro, and purposefully left the vehicle while the OnStar rep guided me through the process. They sold me on 2 months free SiriusXM radio, vehicle Wifi, and OnStar ( only catch was to provide credit card). I inquired multiple times to ensure that I would not be charged during trial. I arrive home one hour later to receive notification from my credit card company that new charges were being pushed through. This ruined a perfectly fine car buying experience. I spent the next 3 hours trying to figure out how to cancel the said "FREE" trial services. Looking deeper I found the car is part of "Connected Services" for next 10 years - GM is actually tracking speed and driving patterns and is scheduling to offer insurance for GOOD DRIVERS. NO and NO. I am now tasked in figuring out how to disconnect my car fully from the big bros at GM. here are the two gems that make me fume: https://www.onstar.com/us/en/support/smart-driver https://www.onstar.com/us/en/support/smart-driver How often is data collected from the vehicle? Smart Driver data is collected by OnStar from the vehicle upon every ignition cycle. How are my scores calculated? After your trip is complete, we look at the factors above and apply a proprietary scoring algorithm used to assess driving behavior. The scores by trip can vary widely. For example, a longer trip with one mild hard brake would score much better than a very short trip with a more abrupt hard brake. Daily, weekly and monthly scores use the same factors, but use somewhat different scoring algorithms. Daily scores consider things that trip scores don’t, like how many trips the driver took and miles he or she drove over the entire day. Trip scores may vary. Monthly scores are the most reliable indicators of how drivers are doing on their driving behaviors.
- cyberpunk 5y agoThat's insane. Can you just rip the sim out of it somehow?
- 0xffff2 5y agoFor new appliances, just don't connect them to your WiFi? I agree about new cars though.
- da39a3ee 5y agoThat thread led to the fact that GE sells dishwashers that enforce religious rules: https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-support-search-content?contentId=17357 https://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-support-sear...
- wdr1 5y ago"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."
- staticelf 5y agoThis sounds like something that https://twitter.com/internetofshit https://twitter.com/internetofshit would repost Maybe the firmware is important for the dishwasher though, but it should still function without it. I imagine a dystopian future where some society fails for some reason and internet stop being reliable. So much of our technology is dependent on it to work. It could be war, it could be solar winds or even more likely that the manufacturer goes out of business and closes down their servers. This is just pretty bad and I think most of us can agree. Nothing will ever change though since you pretty much don't know about this until it happens to you.
- phito 5y ago> This sounds like something that https://twitter.com/internetofshit https://twitter.com/internetofshit would repost They actually reposted it 8 hours ago
- krono 5y agoPersonally I try to avoid these connected appliances like the plague. That said, if today's dishwasher market is anything like that of TVs, it wouldn't be easy to find one that's up to spec that doesn't come with all this nonsense.
- seanw444 5y agoIt will only be a matter of time before there is zero selection. Because IoT is the hip thing, and only will be moreso. But the hacker community will eventually figure out ways of libre-izing these machines with custom firmware, when it becomes a big enough problem.
- LinuxBender 5y agoI am prepared for that. Dirty dishes go in the sink and two hands wash them and place them on a drying rack. Dirty clothes go into two buckets one with holes in it and a plunger washes the clothes using two hands. As a bonus I get exercise without a club membership. I know it isn't hip but it's retro and could make a come-back any day.
- caaqil 5y agoYour dishwasher protecting you against evil hackers with critical updates.
- llampx 5y agoSounds like a self-created problem.
- gwn1 5y agoAlmost all problems are self created, sadly. This is how complexity spirals out of control particularly in software so quickly
- foxfluff 5y agoAnd not enough people are fighting back. There's always someone who can come up with one legitimate use case for the complexity, and thus it has to be accepted.. somehow that use case is never weighed against the cost of complexity, or the cost is always underestimated or outright dismissed.
- buro9 5y agoLooks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu to start it then when? It's just asking "Do you want to do this now?" if not that is fine (the menu can be exited), but now you know to do it later. Alternatively as the dishwasher clearly is on Wi-Fi already (the only way it would know there's an update), one can use the Miele@Home app to perform the update at a more convenient time. I have a Miele dishwasher, it is connected to Wi-Fi (on a VLAN with other white goods, outbound connections to certain domains only). The Wi-Fi is useful... the dishwasher auto-doses the powder, rinse aid, salt, etc... and can let me know the levels of those. In addition it tells me when the cycle is done. Performs updates, etc. There's a Home Assistant integration too, but I've not done that (my VLAN setup prevented it!). PS: If you're of the opinion that a dishwasher doesn't need to be on Wi-Fi and you wouldn't connect it... then great, that's another way not to be asked to do an update. This dishwasher isn't going to ask to connect to Wi-Fi, it's something you choose to do (something that takes a degree of determination I might add).
- stragies 5y agoYeah, that tweet is click-bait meant to generate outrage clicks and follows. Most of the submissions on the front-page have -at best- incomplete titles.
- throwaway2048 5y agoyes, clearly it is the user's fault that their dishwasher wont work without an update.
- chaostheory 5y agoburo9 has just explained that it will work without the update. The person in question also had the choice either to not buy a wifi enabled smart dishwasher, or not connect it to the internet. My own smart TV is not connected to the internet.
- christophilus 5y agoI can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?
- lights0123 5y agoNotifications is the big reason: because cycle times are usually just estimates, you can't just set a timer for when it'll be done.
- LegitShady 5y ago>because cycle times are usually just estimates Why is that? what diagnostics are it running to tell if it needs to run longer? I thought they ran by timers, in which case cycle times are...cycle times.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- cube00 5y agoSome dish washers have water sensors that vary the cycle times depending on how dirty they observe the return water. This why they warn you not to pre-rinse your dishes because you'll fool the system into a lighter washing which won't properly clean your dishes.
- slig 5y agoNewer models can check if the water is coming out clear and waste less resources/time.
- cjrp 5y agoModern-ish ones usually have a dirty-water-sensor; I believe it works by shining light through the water on the way out of the machine to see (roughly) how dirty it is. Clean water = cycle over, dirty water = keep going!
- MSFT_Edging 5y agoWhat reason could a dishwasher have for a firmware update? Did they not test their dishwasher? did they lock away features behind a subscription? Why would it need a security update if it wasn't internet connected?
- eli 5y agoNo software is perfect when shipped. Most dishwashers have had updatable firmware for at least a decade, it just normally required a technician connecting to it with a cable.
- tremon 5y agoNo software is perfect when shipped Why not? Or rather, why do we accept this as the norm? A dishwasher isn't that complex, it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- alasdair_ 5y ago>it should be possible to prove the firmware error-free perhaps they tried, but got stuck on the bit where they tried to figure out if it halts or not.
- 5y ago
- hiccuphippo 5y agoToday my TV had an update and now I can't enable the wifi.
- kzrdude 5y agoGreat, the smart tv problem solved itself.
- rvnx 5y agoIs it a Philips tv ? I received a similar update last week
- eliseumds 5y agoI gave up on "smart" TVs and got one Chromecast for each at home. I also carry one when travelling.
- JoeDaDude 5y agoI never connected my TV to the wifi, I just want it to be a dumb monitor. The downside is that it takes forever to turn on as, I suspect, its trying to find a wifi to connect to.
- cblconfederate 5y agoWhy is this human not following the orders of their dishwasher?
- tailspin2019 5y agoThe human is probably still running on their original V1 firmware (which has a large number of known bugs)
- buggythebug 5y ago
- chaganated 5y ago
- markus_zhang 5y agoWhy does a dishwasher need internet connection? Fortunately most of my stuffs are dumb. Frig, Stove, all dumb, old and still kicking. Good. The washmachine though seems to be smart.
- krm01 5y agoSmart devices are overly complex. The entire point should have been to make devices work for you, but now when you buy a ‘smart’ washing machine, it requires you 30min of setup. Downloading apps, connecting it to wifi, providing GPS location etc. why? What’s the point. We need devices that make life simpler. Straight out of the box.
- quacked 5y agoAre there any regulation barriers to selling "dumb" devices in the modern market? I've made the same point about pickup trucks--the 2002 Toyota Tacoma is a far preferable vehicle than the 2022 Toyota Tacoma for many truck owners, but when I've brought that up, people have pointed out that a number of laws make it impossible to sell a clone of the old version (must have backup cameras, must have X, must have Y, etc.)
- pmontra 5y agoI think incumbents love over regulation. A wider and wider moat.
- rootusrootus 5y agoDoes not seem to be working, at least not in the automotive market. We have several new startups in the space taking a real swipe at the incumbents.
- alistairSH 5y agoAll those things mandated for cars are related to safety. Back-up cameras are required to prevent drivers from running over small children. ABS and stability control to prevent crashes. Etc. And none of them, in a simple implementation, reduce the usability of the car/truck. No such mandates exist for home appliances. The connectivity/apps are purely a money-grab - either people like the general idea of connected devices, or the manufacturer thinks they can monetize that connectivity post-sale (or likely some combination of the two).
- 5y ago
- OtomotO 5y agoMy dishwasher needs no software. The dishwasher I buy will never need software. I am a software engineer and I love technology, but I love simple technology and when something doesn't need software, I don't add software just for the sake of having software.
- arsome 5y agoPretty sure any dishwasher on the market in the past decade uses at least a simple microcontroller, just because it's the cheapest way to achieve all their control and user interactions.
- jhkiehna 5y agoBut dude... How else are you gonna turn it on remotely? WOuldn't it be awesome to be able to load it, walk away for several hours then turn it on from a different room?! That feature alone is totally worth all the extra hassle.
- Zababa 5y agoI know this is probably a joke but my washing machine and all the dishwasher I know have this feature and don't need wifi.
- ludamad 5y agoIs detecting clean water not done in software?
- 5y ago
- tgtweak 5y agoI mean it's kind of due to the fact it's connected to wifi, that it needs to update. If it had no internet-connected/smart functionality, it wouldn't need updates for security OR to correct/add some functionality (or in some cases, remove it as a "security fix"). If you want internet-connected devices so you can - and I can't imagine why - start your dishwasher remotely, then you necessarily open the door to software updates. Also how can it know there is an update unless it's already connected to the network... I'm certain there is a way to exit this also and continue operating as it was. Don't take this as an allowance of disrespectful design - but this post is less than genuine in it's position.
- cube00 5y agoThe marketing folks will solve this outrage by requiring all updates happen automatically at 3am without user intervention.
- sidewndr46 5y agoHopefully right in the middle of a dishwashing cycle.
- zrail 5y agoThe pro move is to set up a password-protected hidden guest Wi-Fi with client isolation and use it for every IoT device that needs internet but no local access. Bonus points if you put it on an isolated VLAN but that's homelab 201.
- reustle 5y agoI’m pretty sure the pro move is to never connect your dishwasher to the internet in the first place.
- alkonaut 5y agoIn this case I'd say the right move is to just not buy the connected device at all. It should be cheaper and not lack any features you want anyway. In contrast to the case of a TV, you may want to buy the smart thing and not connect it. Because since all decent TVs now are smart TVs, chasing a much worse and/or much more expensive TV to avoid smart features in 2022 is usually going to be a really expensive way of buying a really poor TV (Such as a commercial panel, computer monitor, or low end TV - all bad TVs). Then it's better to just buy the smart TV you want and plug in an external source and just not use the smart features. But with a dishwasher there is still a wide selection of dumb dishwashers. And if we keep buying those, that will be the case tomorrow too.
- technothrasher 5y ago> In this case I'd say the right move is to just not buy the connected device at all. It should be cheaper and not lack any features you want anyway. I just renovated my whole kitchen, and all the appliances that had the features I wanted also had wifi connectivity. I basically had no choice but to buy them with it, other than giving up other features. I haven't, however, allowed any of them to connect to my wifi.
- BeefWellington 5y agoThis will work for this generation of devices. The impending next-generation devices that will come with their own embedded 3G/4G antennae are going to pose a whole new set of problems. Manufacturers do already build in dead-man switches into some products, and the more that do this, the more this becomes a problem because then even disabling an antenna will not work. It would be down to requiring custom firmware for a device. This is an area right-to-repair legislation could address and prevent this.
- yholio 5y agoPro-tip: never connect any appliance, vehicle or device to the internet unless you really need the internet-enabled functionality. What you want is dumb devices that work reliably within their initial operating parameters and have a security air-gap. This prevents exploitation of their crufty software, but also prevents the manufacturer to brick or otherwise use them against you with unscrupulous updates. If a software update exists, you will apply it manually if you are bothered by the specific bugs. Never auto-update embedded software, never trust them on your network if they don't belong there, never trust their programmers to do anything but a half-ass hack, the absolute minimum required to get the product out the door, expecting they will issue updates.
- BeefWellington 5y agoEspecially for vehicles this is becoming increasingly harder.[1][2][3] [1]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/connected-cars-how-5g-and-iot-will-affect-the-auto-industry/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/connected-cars-how-5g-and-iot-... [2]: https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/markets/digital-identity-and-security/iot/industries/automotive/connect-cars https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/markets/digital-identity-and-... [3]: https://www.ericsson.com/en/connected-vehicles https://www.ericsson.com/en/connected-vehicles
- OtomotO 5y ago"Smart device" isn't the correct term. The device isn't smart, it's just a big social experiment to check whether you're smart enough not to buy one. (and sadly too many people have failed, so they increased their efforts to get meaningful data by getting rid of other options. Nowadays you often can only buy "smart" devices, or you repair your old stuff) All they do is take away more time and make once simple tasks overly complex... oh, and they break more easily than previous generations it seems. Which only makes sense. My mother cried on the phone when she had replaced her washing machine with a "smart" one, that only made her life more complex. She had bought the same brand for over 30 years, now she will never buy one of their machines again.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mrfusion 5y agoI have a GE Monogram dishwasher and it takes 2+ minutes to start! Just sits on the splash screen. I wonder if it’s trying to connect to wifi or something. I miss my old one where I could just push the start button.
- JoeAltmaier 5y agoSimilarly, mine does NOTHING when I push start. I have to stand there like an idiot for several seconds, straining to hear if something is going on. What a nuisance. It would have been trivial for them to flash a light or start the countdown (it has a timer display). But no; just sits there silently for a while.
- stragies 5y agoI think, the startup delay is intentional. Otherwise they would tons of complaints by people, that notice 2 seconds after pressing the "GO"-button, that they forgot to put in another plate/cup/whatEv, opened the door, despite hearing the running water, and got doused.
- 0xffff2 5y agoMy very dumb, 20 year old, dishwasher is perfectly capable of cutting the water when the latch is disengaged at any point in the cycle. I through utensils that got overlooked in up to 5 or so minutes after it starts and it has never caused a problem.
- 1234letshaveatw 5y agodrink verification can to continue
- duxup 5y agoMy Cree wifi flood light above the door won't let me adjust the color temp if it needs an update. I can turn it off and on, but most functions won't work until it updates.
- hawski 5y ago* Insert quote from Ubik by P. K. Dick * I'm glad that I have around 20 year old Bosch dishwasher. It has one button and one knob and it doesn't beep. For home automation I sometimes would like to add a lowest quality webcam pointed towards lights to see if it has finished. But not for the dishwasher - it always takes the same time and is quick enough. It could be useful for the washing machine, but not enough for me to care.
- Agentlien 5y agoI have a Bosch dishwasher from a few years ago. It has a few buttons for timer (which I never use), different levels of how dirty your dishes are (which I use all the time), start, and power on/off. It's simple to use, it works great and I can't think of any extra software features I would like.
- api 5y agoAhh, but without an Internet connection they can't use it to measure your washing habits and sell it to advertisers or foist subscriptions on you. That's a major deficit.
- evancoop 5y agoThe most common response is likely along the lines of "we don't need our dishwashers connected to the internet, this is unnecessary, another failure mode, another invasion, etc." The more interesting question is who, in the bowels of the manufacturer's corporate headquarters, determined that this feature added value, how was it priced, and what, if anything was done after the fact to assess whether the additional cost was justified?
- rootusrootus 5y agoSomeone on the twitter thread blamed it on the nerds. It is not the nerds that come up with this crap. It's the MBA types (and marketing folks, MBA or not) that dream up this kind of nonsense.
- streamofdigits 5y agoIn the near future there will be an illicit underground market for dumb devices that don't "dial home". Anybody seen to buy such devices will be ostracized as somebody having "something to hide", e.g., when and what they wash, what is in their fridge etc. Dumb cars that are spotted on the highway without matching digital footprints will be confiscated on the spot.
- FirstLvR 5y agothis is where we can say we have failed as engineers, technology should exist to help people... not the other way around
- giantg2 5y agoI fear for the day that we can no longer purchase dumb appliances, cars without connectivity/touchscreens/etc.
- bitwize 5y agoThe object-oriented breakfast food cooker was a quasi-joke when it was written. Today it is reality. http://web.archive.org/web/20141211083710/http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/toaster.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20141211083710/http://www.ridgene...
- Cthulhu_ 5y agoCall me a luddite but my dishwasher has an on / off button, a mode selector, and a start delay and that's all I need. I'm not going to attack people that feel like a smart dishwasher is useful for them, just that, it's not for me. I do have a smart thermostat, but I don't pay its annual subscription fees because I don't use the features it enables. I do appreciate its daily temperature, humidity, and heating graphs though.
- mabbo 5y agoI feel there are design patterns that smart appliances could use that would make them usable, sane, understandable, perhaps even beloved by their owners. I don't think any major appliance manufacturer has done any serious amount of work to figure out what those patterns are, or how they might apply them. They just want to add software so they can extract additional values from their customers by collecting data to sell.
- boringg 5y agoCan't wait for the dishwashers to start requiring annual fees so that the software keeps working just like MS Office suite. You know it's coming - thats would be a terrible existence.
- fsflover 5y agohttps://cointelegraph.com/storage/uploads/view/5e8f6e0d3a029807dfe181dc3d160cf0.png https://cointelegraph.com/storage/uploads/view/5e8f6e0d3a029...
- alkonaut 5y agoLots of appliances have actual use cases for WiFi. A Fridge for example makes a loud beep if you forgot to close the door and the temperature is too high. But forget the door and leave your house, and you won't hear the beep. A push notification would solve it. One can argue whether such a feature is actually worth having in a fridge (Added costs, security risks, complexity...) But at least it has a valid use case: notification. I just can't imagine a dishwasher having such a use case. Notification for when it's done isn't useful. If I'm not home it makes no difference that it's done, and if I am home it could just beep. Starting it obviously isn't useful either. So what features does wifi offer in a dishwasher? The best I can think of is... Error diagnostics (So I don't have to google "E5" when the flood sensor triggers). But that doesn't seem like enough of a feature to warrant a wifi connection.
- jmartinpetersen 5y agoA pretty useful feature would be to start when electricity prices are low.
- alkonaut 5y agoThat is actually a useful feature! I wonder if it supports it
- chasd00 5y agouse the delay feature on your existing dumb dishwasher to start in the middle of the night.
- alkonaut 5y agoYes that does get you 99% of the way there at least. It does require predicting/assuming the electricity prices though. If they are predictable enough, that's fine. It doesn't quite reach feature parity with actually fetching electricity prices every hour and slowly learning when it's cheapest over many weeks.
- 5y ago
- 1970-01-01 5y agoThis is what happens when engineers are overruled by marketing. It gets Wifi because the competition has Wifi. The competition has Wifi because some committee thought it was a great way to upsell the product.
- jillesvangurp 5y ago... and the market proved them right by virtue of people actually buying the things. What people say they want and what they actually do in the store are two completely different things. They'll say they want the basic, easy to use model that just does what it says. When in the store, they see all these products and complex feature lists and the nice sales person up sells them the convoluted thing that they never needed. Works for phones. Works for TVs. Works for Cameras. Works for cars. A smart dish washer has a slight premium over a dumb one. This might not be valuable for everyone but there is a rather large category of people that can be easily talked into paying that premium. They'll buy features just based on a notion of getting more value for their money even if they arguably will never use those features. People are just easy to manipulate into spending more than they should. I used to work at Nokia when they still made phones and for a long term they created endless variations of the same 3 basic software platforms. One in particular, S40, was used for dozens of different phone models per calendar year. These were largely the same phones with features turned off/on, slightly different form factors, and different software and hardware versions. This BTW was not Symbian (a common misunderstanding) but a feature phone platform that started out in the mid nineties. The first model to market was the flip phone in the Matrix. Symbian also started around that time but was a completely different OS. The main point here is: most customers had no clue what they were buying. They bought a "Nokia". And when they were in the store they wanted the best Nokia they could afford. Which was basically a process of selecting based on shininess (literally with the Vertu phones, which were actually unimpressive feature wise) and check-marks in some huge feature matrix (more is better).
- cooperadymas 5y agoI have a smart dishwasher. Anyone who doesn't have one and is bashing them simply hasn't had the pleasure of trying them out. They're pure joy. My 2 year old loves to help me load the dishes. She complains if I don't let her close the soap container and then press the button to start the machine. It's never broken dishes on me. Never failed to clean anything. I've never forgotten to start it, or forgotten to add soap. It runs exactly when I want it to. My dishwasher has 5 buttons on it. I just had to count them. I have only ever pushed 1, the start button. No digital display. No wifi. No broken firmware updates. Simplicity. So smart a two year old can use it.
- hexo 5y agoIs that some kind of mythical product? Would you mind telling us its name? Please :)
- cooperadymas 5y agoDo you mean the dishwasher? Or the 2 year old that loves to help with chores? If the latter, I honestly don't know how we got so blessed with a product that's this amazing in so many diverse ways.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- hexo 5y agoThe Dishwasher please :D
- barbazoo 5y agoThat's really cute. My 1 year old comes racing towards the dishwasher the moment they hear me open the door. Usually to take the cutlery out which isn't what needs doing most of the time.
- rootusrootus 5y agoI had to read to the end of your comment, before I realized what you were saying. Ha! Sounded like you were describing my Bosch dishwasher, which is flawless and does not have WiFi. Put dishes in, press one button, walk away and come back later to perfectly clean dishes. I love the thing. But my two year old is now 11 and doesn't like to help with dishes any more. Sigh.
- AndyMcConachie 5y agoWhy do technical people buy IoT devices and then complain about stupid IoT devices? Why did they buy the thing in the first place if you know the IoT is shit?
- alasdair_ 5y agoMy bed tried to kill me last week. My bed has an app. Because of course it does. The bed logs sleep (and, presumably, other activities) and then sends all the data to the manufacturer. I don't want it to do this, so I explicitly opt out in the app. The problem is that it keeps asking and there isn't a good way to permanently disable the creepy behavior. Back to the attempted murder - last week, I opened the app to adjust the bed (the head and foot of the bed can move) but because of crappy app design, there isn't a way to set myself as the default person when the app is opened. I had to deal with the privacy setting reminder again and in my frustration with it, I ended up changing my wife's side of the bed instead of my own. Frustrated, I try to cancel by tapping another preset position, but then realize that this preset is going to move both sides at once, so I then tapped the physical button on my wife's side to make her side go back to a different preset position. And yes, my internal model of whatever state the bed is in was now thoroughly confused. Anyway, nothing new happened. The bed continued moving to the first (unwanted) position, then it stopped completely. I tried the physical button again and nothing happened, and the app wasn't working either, so I went to check that the power cable didn't accidentally come loose, with a plan to unplug the controller and plug it back in again if there wasn't a loose wire. The problem was, the control box was beneath the (very, very heavy) bed. Thankfully it's easy to access the controller when the head of the bed is up - there is a bunch of empty space where the mattress normally would be. So I half-climbed in to the bed to check the power cable, and that's right at the point where the bed decided it had had enough of the human interfering with its utility function of providing optimal sleep at all times and decided to solve the problem by lowering itself on my neck. It's relevant to note here that the bed in question is not some wimpy somnolence aid. No! This thing is designed to hoist two human bodies up to 350lbs (each!) into a sitting position. While it takes around 4500 Newtons to snap a neck, it takes much less force to compress the carotid artery and deflate the windpipe - in this task (unlike remembering my privacy settings), the bed was peerless. I was first annoyed, then concerned, then serious panic set in when I realized that I (a 6'2 human male) wasn't able to fend off my assailant. I yelled, shoved, panicked and shoved some more. Only after several scary seconds did I finally realize that I could cut the power by yanking out the cord in front of me. Getting myself disentangled gave me a long scratch on my arm (first blood goes to the robots!) and a loss of much of my pride, but soon after I reveled in my victory - the first skirmish in what will be known to future generations as the Machine wars. It probably says something about me that, even as I recount this story, the fact that the bed tried to kill me isn't the worst feature that I'd mention in a review. I'm genuinely more bothered by the constant nagging privacy settings screen in the app. Small, constant irritations seem to be worse than single, (albeit large) failure modes that seldom occur. Anyway, I need to end this here. It's almost 7am and the coffee maker gets angry if I don't stick to the schedule it created for me.
- golemotron 5y agoPeople talk about the right to repair, but I'd rather have the right to run disconnected and stop updates without product failure.
- aaron695 5y ago
- samgranieri 5y agoI'm looking to buy a house this year, and hopefully the house I fall in buy won't have this stuff. If I have to buy a new dishwasher or fridge, they won't be "smart". I mean, I don't even let my TV connect to wifi. I just feed it content over HDMI
- usrbinbash 5y agoAnd now for the grand question: Why the heck does a dishwasher need firmware updates? And in case the answer is "because its on WiFi and thus needs security updates": Why in the flying heck does a D I S H W A S H E R need to be on WiFi?
- Koshkin 5y agoIn a similar outrageous manner, every so often MS FS2020 would not let you use it until you install another 35 GB "mandatory update."
- nrvn 5y agohere is the problem statement: 1. Get a technology proven to have solved a given problem more than 100 years ago. 2. Throw ICs on top of it. 3. Put “smart” into marketing materials. 4. … 5. Profit There is nothing in any dishwasher[0], fridge, vacuum cleaner, washing machine, ${you_name_the_home_appliance} that would require to be smarter than they are without those (actually far from smart) hardware and software that is being installed and imposed on customers. If combined with the planned obsolescence[1] it creates a perfect combo. [0] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13909365
- denton-scratch 5y ago> imposed on customers They are imposed, because dumb equipment is getting harder to find. You can't buy a dumb TV any more. It'll soon be the same with dishwashers and washing machines. Incidentally, I don't want a smart machine with a 90's mode; that gives you all the complexity and unreliability of a smart machine. I've heard that industrial-grade clothes washers are reliable. My toaster is a Dualit, and has no electronics - the timer is clockwork. This is industrial-grade - it's pitched at people running a bar or cafe (and priced accordingly). No planned obsolescence, and it's held together with screws - it's eminently repairable, and spares are available. I'm prepared to pay for stuff that is un-smart.
- acuozzo 5y ago> You can't buy a dumb TV any more. FWIW, you can. New dumb TVs are marketed as "digital signage" and sold to businesses at a much higher price point.
- denton-scratch 5y agoI just skimmed for some LG "digital signage": it's not obvious to me that these things actually contain a TV receiver. If it lacks a TV receiver, it doesn't really qualify as a dumb TV. This one comes with Windows 10; that's not quite what I mean by "dumb". It appears to really be a "smart" non-TV. https://www.lg.com/uk/business/digital-signage/lg-55ct5wj-b https://www.lg.com/uk/business/digital-signage/lg-55ct5wj-b
- outside1234 5y agoEver time I turn on my Samsung TV I have to wait for it to finish “Updating Smart Hub” before I can go to Netflix.
- sys_64738 5y agoWhen I read this my initial thoughts were: 1) Why would I want to hook my dishwasher to the internet? 2) Is the dishwasher firmware FLOSS? 3) Has anybody ported Linux to the dishwasher MCU? 4) Has anybody ported DOOM to the dishwasher MCU? 5) Is the dishwasher spying on me via built in microphone?
- civilized 5y agoCongress needs to pass a law mandating that all electronics come with a physical switch labeled "90s Mode". When you turn it on, everything in the appliance that wouldn't have existed in a 90s version of the appliance is turned off. And in 90s mode, the appliance must still be able to do all the things it could do in the 90s. There has been exactly one useful innovation in non-computer appliances since 1999, and that is backup cameras on cars.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y agoI want you all to note one sentence: "we’ve let nerds go too far" They -- the consumers -- are not blaming marketing or executives. No. They are blaming people who should know better, but allow this particular brand insanity to evolve.
- 28304283409234 5y agoFor this iot hell, I flick on the wifi hotspot on an old phone with 4g. Get off my LAN! Also, dishwashers are a scam, but that's a different ~~rant~~ topic.
- _fat_santa 5y agoI took it a step further and created a whole different network for IOT devices (TV excluded for phone streaming). Usually suffices the "connect to WiFi" requirement while not actually providing those devices with internet, or provide it in a very limited fashion.
- pettycashstash2 5y agoMy Ikea FYRTUR Blinds did not work until I bought the Ikea TRÅDFRI Gateway. The only way to update the firmware was to do it via the gateway. In other words they were DOA without the gateway. https://twitter.com/pettycashstash/status/1488167969972797446 https://twitter.com/pettycashstash/status/148816796997279744...
- helloworld11 5y agoIt's extraordinary to see the number of people commenting here with "convenience" justifications for why this dishwasher.... a fucking dishwasher.... could indeed benefit from simply letting it run its firmware updates via WiFi. A number of silly, absurd pretects for essentially saying "well, it's not so bad really, I kind of see the point because it will let you do X and Y, Oh and the algo might recommend better soap!"........... Again, it's a fucking dishwasher. Stack dishes. Press button. Wash dishes. It absolutely does not need a bloody algorithm trying to force you the owner into anything. The idea is absurd, and seeing so many defenses of convenience for such pushy, prying things is as well on the same site where so many people also frequently complain about our worrisome surveillance capitalism/corporatism future of constant user tracking and tech lock-in and siloing. If some people can't even easily stomach the notion of washing dishes without dubious software updates and data hoarding algorithms, so many other, more serious parts of digital independence are well sold to hell down the road.
- titzer 5y agoMy dishwater won't drain because the hose that connects to the garbage disposal is clogged. Probably time for a new one (hose). I can fix it with a screwdriver. In the future, nothing will be fixed because of the incredible complexity of software and the lack of printed manuals. A whole generation of devices will disappear into a black hole. But for a brief period, there was a lot of shareholder value.
- blueflow 5y agoI did not find it difficult to find "dumb" devices on the european market - microwaves with rotary buttons and a washing machine without digital display or any visible computer-like interface. And a fridge that only does cool things. I'm confused why tech people like lovecruft still pick the models who have whacky wifi integrations and stuff. For me it seems obvious they are a huge burden in the long term.
- BurningFrog 5y agoI cherish every day I don't have to log in to my toothbrush
- qalmakka 5y agoThere should be, by law, a "dumb mode" on all non-computing devices. Something that disables all smart features and reverts the device back to its basics. This "smart home" trend is a dangerous fad that trades security and privacy for very dubious gains.
- Someone1234 5y agoMost of the time there is: Do not connect it to the internet.
- acuozzo 5y agoI've observed "smart" TVs connect to every open WiFi network in range until successfully dialing home.
- bencollier49 5y agoOf course the beauty of a dishwasher that needs firmware updates is that, like my phone, the vendor can simply stop providing them in three years and force me to buy a new dishwasher to prevent my house from getting pwned.
- joelbondurant1 5y ago
- Ericson2314 5y agoThe Internet of Shit I why I think the "chip shortage" might be a good thing!
- drittich 5y agoPeople will complain about the need to IoT ALL the things, the security risks, the impracticality of something not being able to do its basic function because DNS is down, or whatever. I can't say I disagree. But I also have to admit that the most annoying aspect of my dishwasher, which is a higher-end one, is that it cannot alert me that it is done other than by playing some annoying music, which I am not close enough to hear. An SMS alert would be so helpful, and the same goes for my laundry machines, also higher-end ones. I've taken to scheduling alarms on my phone, which I need to do several times a week.
- rootusrootus 5y ago> playing some annoying music Samsung? Do any other appliance manufacturers play a long tune at the end of the cycle? My washing machine and dryer both play the same tune. I'm used to it, but it was jarring at first.
- drittich 5y agoLG washer/dryer, Bosch dishwasher in my case
- YEwSdObPQT 5y agoI am buying a boiler. Some of the options had options where I could voice control my boiler. Or I could just turn the knob on the boiler.
- specialist 5y agoAre there any open source appliances? Like the FOSS farming gear? I've repaired most of my appliances multiple times. Most recently my Kenmore Series 70 dryer. Very satisfying. Should last another decade, easily. All my pre-CPU appliances are simple and obvious. Really seems like low hanging fruit. Only challenge is sourcing correct parts.
- jacquesm 5y agoSo screw them then. Miele is fantastic stuff but I really don't need my white goods to phone home, and if it worked in the factory, then I will assume it works here in my home. Even if you can skip this (Looking at you too, Bosch) it doesn't matter, it shouldn't even be there, and a dishwasher has no business to be on the internet.
- d--b 5y agoMy dishwasher is IKEA. It auto-opens when done which both tells me it's done and lets the steam away. It is screenless so I can have any facade on it I want. It projects the remaining time on the floor. This is what should be called "smart"
- jdlyga 5y agoWhat benefits do smart dishwashers bring that are worth the costs of having to deal with wifi connectivity issues and firmware updates? It sounds like a poor tradeoff.
- pcmoney 5y agoFor 90% of household appliances I want them to be dumb AF. Also no capacitive touch or press and hold BS. I want heavy duty physical switches and buttons. As few chips as possible. No way in hell am I letting it connect to my wifi. I want steel, I want access panels.
- me_me_mu_mu 5y agoIs it weird that the more tech becomes like this the more I feel checked out? I don’t want smart devices, nor do I want to be online 24/7. However it’s hard to escape this reality. My thermostat (in apartment) recently reset due to a power issue and I had to have maintenance over to do its configuration again. They had to come twice because after setting it up they have to figure out how to connect it to Wi-Fi for a software update. Before this apartment I lived in one where all the appliances were straight out of 1950/60. They were retro af but they worked without any issues for the time I lived there. Here I’ve had issues every month.
- rootusrootus 5y agoThe problem isn't tech per se, it is the many poor implementations and the push by manufacturers to get you to subscribe to their cloud service. You can have your cake and eat it too, but you do have to do some work to get there. I can control every light switch, thermostat, garage doors, deadbolts, and a few other random things. All from my phone. Automate things, get notified if I want, when the door is unlocked/opened/whatever. But critically, if my Home Assistant goes down, it all fails back to 1950s style. E.g. the deadbolts still have a physical key and a twist knob on the inside (though the keypad functionality is not Internet-dependent). This does mean I don't use any devices that become unusable when the HA server or Internet disappears (for example, Hue bulbs). For devices that don't have local control as an option, I just refuse to buy them. I won't buy things that require a 'net connection to function.
- EricE 5y ago"You can have your cake and eat it too, but you do have to do some work to get there." Yup! It used to be a lot harder, but with Homekit and Home Assistant it's more accessible with less tinkering than ever before. I hope Matter (the Amazon/Google/Apple consortium based on Homekit) doesn't blow out the cloud-free options - hopefully Apple can reign in the others.
- moonshinefe 5y agoIt's not weird to me or a lot of people I know. I don't want to be online 24/7 (don't bring my phone with me most places, etc.) and I avoid smart devices for the most part in my house. I think people in general prefer simple and reliable, but sometimes it doesn't seem like it since people who buy smart devices talk about them a lot (not a criticism aimed at those people specifically, people like to talk up their purchases in general).
- ClumsyPilot 5y agoYour regular reminder that there will be no such thing as personal property in dystopian survaliance capitalism future. You will own your appliances as much as you own your spotify subscription.
- gameswithgo 5y agoIt infuriates me that this sort of thing is the trend with devices like tvs and appliances. For now you can work around it by just never connecting them to your wifi. But I'm sure a day is coming when the device won't function until you do.
- gigel82 5y agoHa, just had a similar experience over the weekened with my Lifx light bulbs needing to restart to apply a firmware update. Yes, the freaking light bulbs themselves needed to reboot... we've come too far.
- Vrondi 5y agoHilarious! I cannot comprehend why anyone would buy a dishwasher with wifi. Ever. A dishwasher worth having should last at least 10 years. By the end of that time, the wifi security spec it is compatible with is likely to be a huge security hole in your home network, as you will be 1-2 wifi specs newer in most cases due to router replacements. Sheer stupidity.
- 0xffff2 5y agoCan't speak to dishwashers since my 20 year old model that came with the house is still working just fine, but I replaced my fridge and washing machine in the last couple of years. It's honestly hard to find a decent appliance that doesn't have WiFi built in. So far, simply not setting up the WiFi on my modern appliances has worked just fine (i.e. after peeling off the sticker telling me how to connect, the thing works just like a non-WiFi appliance).
- phendrenad2 5y agoIt's time for all of these IoT companies to come together and agree on a shared protocol. If my dishwasher must update it's firmware, I assume that it can also connect to the SaaS of my choice which I have chosen to automate my house with. There's no excuse for showing me the update on a tiny $1-on-Aliexpress OLED display. This manufacturer should be killed by another one that follows a shared standard (if one existed).
- tnwebwise 5y agoTech has gone too far, imagine this trend going far down the road. Everything is a subscription. Life is on hold for software updates or missed payments to make the bulb to work when I ask Alexa to control the indigo-domo server to enable the in wall wiring switch controller to work. I hope this stuff gets a little easier and everyone finishes the work to unify the communications side. I work IT, and while the automated hardware can be useful, it's not when it forces updates with magically bad timing. I "used" to play games on a playstation, but not often enough... so every time I wanted to play it and had the time to... it needed some playstation update right now, and the time afforded to play was lost. Hello Steam. Nord VPN seems to need required reboot updates near weekly. I always ponder that the updates have to be less a required fix and more of a marketing related update. Did you know most cars have a cell modem in them and send "home" the can-bus data so that the car makers can see how parts from xyz corp are working out for them. Does the dish washer listen for people talking about it and how it's used? What does it send home?
- fractal618 5y agoHot wire that Bish. Isn't this "hacker" news?
- egberts1 5y agoit is nigh time to take it back to the manufacturer under warranty. if their longevity depends on WiFi and is not mentioned in the manual, get your money back.
- lcall 5y agoJust a related case, with a faucet: Some months ago, we bought a new kitchen sink faucet, liking the handsfree feature (on/off by waving in front of a sensor). Of 2 possibilities, the salesman pushing for the on w/ a smart controller with wifi, saying we wouldn't ever have to use the wifi, and it was $50 cheaper. And he didn't mention the existence of the branded a/c adapters for the faucet, and misled somewhat about the nature of the warranty (the lifetime part doesn't cover the electronics--those are covered for 5 years which seems reasonable enough I guess). Turned out that it requires 6 or 8 size D(? large, pricey) battery cells which ran down in ~5 weeks. Due to a bug(?) or design problem, the cold water got stuck in "open" mode when the batteries died, and could not be turned off except by shutting off all cold water to the faucet. Replacing batteries, etc etc didn't help. The manufacturer said yes there was also another bug, due to wifi not being set up, it was constantly probing for a network, and ran down faster. The only way to fix it was to connect to wifi, or get a new controller. They (Moen) were repeatedly very competent and helpful on the phone, understood why I preferred not to connect it to wifi in my case, and sent us a new controller with the fix, under the warranty. The local salesman however, after long discussion and not super-happily, allowed us to get the other sensor model with no smart controller box, and days later, to return the old faucet for the full original price. (Moen provided a return shipping label for the unused replacement controller box.) We have been happy with the new/simpler sensor model, which seems to have neither of the bugs of the first one (Moen said that in this one, a capacitor saves enough power to turn off the water, in case the batteries die while the water is running). Takes just something like 2 AAA batteries which last a long time, working very nicely. My wife points out that the the simpler model actually did turn out to be significantly less expensive, and we had to have a plumber come for something else right at the same time so they did the faucet swap then and the total cost difference was about a wash. We were grateful that it turned out well in the end. I would probably buy from Moen again, considering, but would read online more at their site about the product, and listen to the salesman somewhat less.
- bobuxbelike 5y ago
- bobuxbelike 5y ago
- HeavyStorm 5y agoAs dystopian as things can get.