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Microsoft blocks EdgeDeflector to force Windows 11 users into Edge

885 points by Vinnl 5y ago

SeriousM 5y ago
Reminds me of their opt out strategy. You can opt out of their stupid behaviour (eg win10 welcome screen that pops up every now and then after boot) but then again after some updates they introduced just another switch that is turned on by default, ignoring effectively the user's choice of opt out. Group policies have a shitload of these switches...
chinathrow 5y ago
> “At the same time, Windows also offers certain end-to-end customer experiences in both Windows 10, and Windows 11, the search experience from the taskbar is one such example of an end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected. When we become aware of improper redirection, we issue a fix.” Hey team at MS who implements stuff like that: How does it feel working on this? Genuinely interested.
- pedro2 5y ago
  Like playing cat and mouse, I'd suppose. And it will be fun.
  - chinathrow 5y ago
    More like a waste for everyone, including the courts.
topynate 5y ago
The phrase "offers certain end-to-end customer experiences" could be applied to anything that happens while you're using Windows – so it doesn't mean anything. For Microsoft to label what Firefox and Edge are doing "improper redirection" is just rubbing it in. A problem of propriety is just one of failing to meet some conventional standard. But there's no community here whose mores are being violated, the convention is no more than whatever some VP wants.
account-5 5y ago
There really are no trust worthy tech companies. All they care about is money. If I'm being advertised to I'm not paying for the priveledge. There will be another work around I'm sure. I can't add anything constructive this sort of stuff really annoys me and I end up on a rant.
jchw 5y ago
It’s improper to invent a custom scheme that specifically opens a URL in a browser the user neither uses nor wants. I think some Microsoft employees should check out their own Wikipedia page sometime for an interesting history lesson.
HeavyStorm 5y ago
I'm skipping windows 11. With some luck, Valve work on Linux (photon) and steamsOS will finally free me from msft.
windex 5y ago
Here we go again. I want MS to understand that I want it to get out of my workflow once I paid for it. Just get out of and stop making me jump through hoops. I am tired of this corporate doublespeak nonsense.
- dschuetz 5y ago
  Yes, exactly. Microsoft products try to be smarter than the rest of the world and it's infuriating. Office, Teams (worst software ever to be forced to use in corporate), Edge and now we get Windows 11, the Windows version we supposedly would never get, remember? Windows 10 being the last? Microsoft will never change. Microsoft is the next IBM. Remember IBM? They are selling blockchains, quantum computers and magical AI products now.
teawrecks 5y ago
Microsoft is improper. I will block it.
hmrr 5y ago
I call Microsoft’s implementation improper. Will block them from my purchasing in future.
danpalmer 5y ago
Regardless of whether this is anti-competitive enough to be illegal, I'm surprised that Microsoft are going anywhere near this issue given their history of legal trouble with giving preferential treatment to their own browser.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  My feeling is MS maybe have paid^W campaign-contributed to the right people on both sides of the Atlantic, that they're not worried about this.
  - saint_angels 5y ago
    if so, what did change so it wasn't feasible before? Now MS has more money to pay?
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      I wonder if there's a survey that asks OECD citizens if they feel like in the last 20 years their country has: a) become less corrupt b) become more corrupt c) stayed the same
  - jeltz 5y ago
    How would campaign contributions help in the EU? The people they would need to pay off are all unelected judges and prosecutors. The elected officials do not how much power to affect anything.
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      I should've also added lobbying. Like Microsoft trying to stop Munich to switch to Linux: https://www.information-age.com/ballmer-lobbying-fails-to-prevent-linux-defection-297691/ https://www.information-age.com/ballmer-lobbying-fails-to-pr... Although that's from 2006, in 2013 this article says the migration was finished: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-munich-rejected-steve-ballmer-and-kicked-microsoft-out-of-the-city/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-munich-rejected-ste... But I'm not sure if they've stayed with Linux or returned to Microsoft in the last 8 years... EDIT, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#Timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#Timeline, in 2017 some politicians said they're switching to Windows 10 by 2020, in 2020 other politicians U-turned on that decision.
xaduha 5y ago
Windows 10 LTSC 2021 is out, I think it has Edge in it still, but I don't think it has this nonsense.
- yourusername 5y ago
  LTSC is not legal to run for the vast majority of users and Office is not supported on it. That's not really a solution.
  - curiousgal 5y ago
    > Office is not supported I mean realistically how many times have you ever had to reach out to support regarding an issue with Office?
    - cube00 5y ago
      Try telling your security department they're on an unsupported configuration and see how long before your higher ups request an audience with you for a "quick chat"
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    What versions? Would installing something like Office 2016 work?
  - KindOne 5y ago
    You can buy a LTSC license for a single computer. https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-instructions-for-purchasing-a-windows-10-ltsc-license https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-inst...
noahtallen 5y ago
Microsoft’s reasoning is that features like search is an end to end experience. That’s odd to me — it just opens a web page. Is there anything special about it being in Edge that we don’t notice? I mean, obviously it’s BS, but are there PMs who actually think it’s better for the user to override the default browser for things like this? A side note: one frustrating aspect of this problem is that my browser extensions are never installed in Edge. So things like password autofill in a lot of the MS auth flows (which appear to be web-based, as far as I can tell) just don’t work
- skohan 5y ago
  Well obviously they lose telemetry when you leave the ms ecosystem, so the user journey has effectively ended at that point /s > things like password autofill in a lot of the MS auth flows (which appear to be web-based, as far as I can tell) just don’t work Cynically I could believe this is partly by design. If they manage to get you into edge often enough, sooner or later you'll set up your workflows in edge as well out of annoyance. Maintaining two separate browser environments is a burden, and sooner or later a lot of people will give up and stick to the browser you have to use in many cases.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    Do they really need Edge to gather your data if they own the OS? > Maintaining two separate browser environments is a burden For my personal use I have 4 distinct browsers (FF, Brave, Ungoogled Chromium and Falkon) but I guess I'm probably an outlier ;)
    - Andrex 5y ago
      > Do they really need Edge to gather your data if they own the OS? "Need?" No. But that wasn't the question MS asked themselves. The question was probably "More data or less?" Framed like that, it's unfortunately obvious why they chose this route.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> We’ll have to wait and see how this plays out in the future, but it makes Edge look bad, which is a shame because it’s not a terrible browser at all. No, it's just evil. An axe is just a tool unless wielded by a dark clown. Edge would probably be a reasonable browser in the hands of literally anyone other than microsoft.
- travisporter 5y ago
  Is there a chromium-like fork for edge?
  - kahrl 5y ago
    Yes. It's called Edge.
  - tristor 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure that's just Chromium, there's not that many differences between Edge and Chromium already.
- tetraca 5y ago
  Without Microsoft, Edge would just be another chromium fork for the pile. If it's not directly imposed on you, it would have little value to add.
dartharva 5y ago
They can try as much as they want, but they'll never manage to make the majority use Edge.
- AndroidKitKat 5y ago
  They're well on the way to being the second most popular. [1] [1]: https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop/worl...
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  I'd use edge over chrome. Still sticking with FF for now though.
DrBazza 5y ago
Microsoft returning to its early 00s attitude. I wonder if the EU will step in and make this an anti-competitive thing. Yet another reason to not install Windows 11, including telemetry, adverts, an always on internet connection, and abandoning perfectly functioning hardware in favour of TPM chips.
- skohan 5y ago
  This in particular seems to blatantly fly in the face of the precedent which was established by the earlier anti-trust judgements against them. It almost seems as if they believe anti-trust has been effectively killed between then and now, and they're ready to poke the bear to verify that it's dead.
  - Ygg2 5y ago
    Judging at the current state of Internet, anti-trust is not just dead, but cremated, and thrown into the sea.
    - saiya-jin 5y ago
      I wouldn't be so sure, here across the pond we tend to slap these arrogant giants from time to time with few billions fine. Still just cost of doing their often amoral business, but often a big one.
      - zwaps 5y ago
        As a European, I am pretty sure. These cases are fought for years, and theorized over for decades. In the meantime, the companies have gained or lost market share, profits and future revenues move in whatever direction, and the court ruling and the fine have little importance. This may have been different some time ago. Nowadays, however, rest assured that no internet company will be deterred by pesky things such as laws, morality or ethics. If market share is at stake, that is. This goes for Microsoft as much as for Google and Facebook. Google settles important cases (data related) to not have any legislative interference, and will pay the fine for everything else. Microsoft would be foolish to do anything else. The companies are more powerful than the legal systems in the EU. Not the EU, mind you - if the will was there. But it isn't. Look at the fines, look at the dollars actually being paid. And then look at the prospect of gaining 30,40 maybe 50% market share in the browser market - now that all bets are off and Microsoft has gone back to just siphoning off all data without even giving normal users a choice. Yeah. Don't be naive.
leokennis 5y ago
How is this even worth it to MS? Do they really expect people who go through the effort of installing a third party browser and setting it as default to switch back to Edge because of the grand experience they had with it when Windows opened some help article in it? How much money do they make of the 0.000001% of users who do the above? How much money do they lose because of the reputation damage and increased regulator attention because of it? I cannot think of any scenario where, money wise, this is a net positive for MS.
- danmur 5y ago
  Have to find something for their engineers to do so they don't have time to make Teams usable
  - rk06 5y ago
    If anything, teams is now more unusable. I have set Firefox as deault web browser, but Teams still opens urls in Edge. And I could not find a way to fix it, or identify why Teams is doing it?
    - tatersolid 5y ago
      I have Firefox as my default browser, and all of my teams links open in Firefox. I’m not sure you have things configured correctly, or your Organization has added some thirty-party security stuff on top of Teams.
    - tallanvor 5y ago
      That is a particularly annoying thing. The good news is that you can fix that, even though you shouldn't have to. Open Edge and go to Settings > Profiles > Profile preferences and toggle off "Use Microsoft Edge to open links from other Microsoft apps".
      - whyoh 5y ago
        God, that's such a typical new-Microsoft dark pattern; hiding the toggle for an annoyance in some weird location, hoping the user doesn't find it. It's everywhere in Windows 10.
arnklint 5y ago
Why? Like from the user perspective, why? Did Ballmer have anything to do with this decision?
- capableweb 5y ago
  You somehow think that all the bad decisions from Microsoft comes directly from Ballmer? There are plenty of people at Microsoft (still) who think like Ballmer did, and they will in the future too. The decisions that come from Microsoft comes from the entire of Microsoft, and they are all contributing to it happening too.
alxlaz 5y ago
What is this I hear about a new Microsoft?
- Stranger43 5y ago
  It never included the windows/office teams otherwise we would have had a native port if office to Linux. What happened was merely that azure was given the same freedom the Xbox division used to have to operate in their market niche as if they were an independent company with no obligation to promote Microsofts other products, and it's a question if that is actually going to last.
  - dagw 5y ago
    otherwise we would have had a native port if office to Linux. Do you really believe that is the only reason we don't have a native port of Office for Linux? If Microsoft released a version of MS Office for Linux tomorrow, that was just as compatible with the Windows version as the Mac version is, how many extra licenses do you think they would sell?
jokethrowaway 5y ago
>> We’ll have to wait and see how this plays out in the future, but it makes Edge look bad, which is a shame because it’s not a terrible browser at all. Thank you, it's basically Chromium with MS spyware instead of the usual Google one
dustinmoris 5y ago
This just shows how Microsoft's internal structure harms users. PMs get paid based on idiot stats and the more the Internet Explorer Edge team can increase IE Edge usage the more they get in bonus payments. So they force it on their Windows users down their throat, completely disregarding how awful of an experience this is as long as they get a better pay check. The same happened with Teams. The Teams PM managed to get Teams integrated into Windows 11 in order to increase its usage stats for a better bonus. Honestly, I don't know why so many people, especially developers still use Windows. I am 100% convinced that developers on Windows who are still using Windows as their main OS for software dev have not tried another OS for at least a few months to give it a proper try. It's unimaginable how an intelligent human being would otherwise like Windows. There is nothing to like about it. Windows 11 was a massive downgrade from 10 as well.
- fleaaaa 5y ago
  Only if proprietary softwares outside of dev toolchains support linux natively, I do really want that but in reality it is not.
  - skohan 5y ago
    Which software would you need to work to make the switch? So much of what I use is web-based nowadays, it's only really dev tools and games which I care about running natively. The former is best-in-class on Linux, and the latter is getting pretty darned good.
    - michaelt 5y ago
      There will always be some people who are stuck on Windows, because there will always be some people who need to use things like SolidWorks / Fusion 360 / Altium / Zemax.
    - fleaaa 5y ago
      Not much actually, Ableton Live, Max/MSP and loads of ancient VSTs. Yes I tried ardour, bitwig and reaper but those aren't enough for my workflow unfortunately. Also HW supports isn't great on linux when it comes to various combination of external audio gears. Like another child comment said, I've tried multiple distros for years as well but always came back to win cause I can't be bothered to maintain two different OS in my flavor. Windows is cumbersome for sure but it can be mitigated at the end of the day. Windows is not my fave OS per se but just works in most cases.. I've been actually a mac user for a long time but it sucked on HW/SW in my case. I ditched mac like a couple years ago but now It might be in a better fit..
caf 5y ago
Isn't this just going to teach people not to use their crummy search box, if it opens things in the browser that they don't want to use?
- daemin 5y ago
  For a lot of technical people they start applications by hitting the Windows key and then typing. If you do this quickly and accidentally mistype something you'll most likely end up doing a search.
  - cube00 5y ago
    I can't say I enjoy firing off a web search for "Windows update" in Bing which appears faster then the local system match for Windows Update somehow (or cynically perhaps by design)
mactavish88 5y ago
The last version of Windows I used was Windows XP. I since switched to various Linux distros and macOS, now settling on a combination of Debian and Ubuntu as my daily laptop/server OS’s. My initial reasons for my leaving the Microsoft world were because I didn’t agree with Microsoft’s ethics: it’s like being an exploitative, self-serving (as opposed to user-serving) conglomerate is wired into its company structure. MS’s great work with VS Code got me thinking that maybe there’s some hope for them as an organization, but every time I peek back into the Microsoft world like this I’m even less inclined to ever go back. I mean, their customers are actively developing workarounds for their shitty dark UX patterns, and their response is basically: “sorry, we insist that you adhere to our dark UX patterns”. Fuck that. Life’s too short for that bullshit. Vote with your time, money and attention.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  I agree. My jump was from Windows 7, when MS announced requirements for Windows 11 that seemed to try the trusted computing thing again. I have Windows 10 in a VM. It is not horrible once debloated, but my daily driver at this point is PopOS, which I can happily recommend. If only we could now get linux phone done ( and no, mobile ubuntu does not count ) to where desktop is today, I think I would be content.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > ( and no, mobile ubuntu does not count ) How about Librem 5: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5?
    - heywherelogingo 5y ago
      52 week wait and overpriced.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        If you want to change the industry, you have to vote with your wallet. There is no other way.
daemin 5y ago
I put this on par with Google automatically signing you in to Chrome when you log into any one of its services, or even the mandatory Windows Online account that you need to install Windows 11 (and to a lesser extent 10). Just user hostile actions in the name of "convenience" (for the product owner / business).
thrower123 5y ago
The heavy-handedness at Microsoft right now is surprising. Is there some kind of internal power struggle going on?
- cube00 5y ago
  Doesn't seem like much has changed, Windows 10 was always nagging me to restore my default browser back to the "recommended" one. Currently I have a permanent icon on the top of my settings panel "Web browsing: restore recommended" that I can't remove unless I go back to Edge.
Aeolun 5y ago
I am so happy to have switched to Pop OS around two years ago. I’ve just become completely immune to random updates, shutdowns, and all evil Microsoft news. I never quite understood what kind of difference it makes, but my computer feels like it’s my own again. Anyway, on topic, yeah, eventually they’ll get antitrust slapped again.
- christophilus 5y ago
  Windows to OSX to Fedora was my path. Never been happier with my computers.
- neop1x 5y ago
  11 years ago European Commision ordered them to let the user chose which browser to use. How come they are now forcing their browser again without asking users?! https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/02/microsoft?&ampcf=1 https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/02/microsoft...
angeland89 5y ago
If I understands this correctly. Microsoft wants links tagged with edge to always open in edge on windows. The people that made both edge and windows want a tag made for edge and windows to perform as expected in edge and windows. I don't see an issue.
anotherhue 5y ago
The core phrase here is they're calling something the "microsoft-edge protocol". Which I must assume is ActiveX.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  No, it's much more basic than that. The system launches a URL starting with microsoft-edge: and uses the protocol handling system to open that in the Edge browser.
cute_boi 5y ago
Ok where are all those people who had convinced me Microsoft has changed their hostile behavior? I mean how can they change when their dna is like this. Do people really think if some company like facebook/microsoft spends some dime they can whitewash their tarnished reputation? Can we buy reputation from money? Lets not create utopia for sophist corporation. And their browser is not better than ungoogled chromium or vivaldi or firefox. Their browser despite being copy of opensource hasn't even published the source (I understand its BSD). Will we get edgium?
- dustinmoris 5y ago
  It's called Azure Microsoft Windows Internet Explorer Edge, not Edgium. Edgium would be way too short for a Microsoft product name of the 2020s.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  > Can we buy reputation from money? Yes, apparently they can. There used to be huge threads here on HN on how today's MS has nothing to do with its past, that it's ridiculous to believe that the company will always stay the same, that the Ballmer epoch is all over. I mean yes, these people are right, MS is a different company - but will still do grayish stuff on the verge of legality, as long as they can go unpunished. And because corporations are not people, apparently we can only speak about the legal aspect, not the moral one (as if nobody was personally responsible for these decisions).
  - pmontra 5y ago
    Corporations are made by people and are led by people. I wish we get rid of the limited responsibility stuff. You're the CEO, you go to jail. This would probably break large companies in a multitude of much smaller ones to manage risks. How many people can you manage and be reasonably sure don't do something that sends you to jail? Not many. We would still have software, FOSS demonstrate it, and entrepreneurs would still find a way to create new things.
    - aspaceman 5y ago
sourthyme 5y ago
Is there a way to disable the searchbar from accessing the internet entirely?
- sourthyme 5y ago
  This easier than I thought. Windows+S and then in the cog you can disable web results.
- mkl 5y ago
  Just turn off the search bar. You gain a whole lot of taskbar space, and in my experience Windows search is almost useless anyway. For files Everything [1] is far superior. [1] https://www.voidtools.com/ https://www.voidtools.com/
EMM_386 5y ago
I'm actually ok with this, and I don't use Edge. This is only for links using the microsoft-edge protocol, which is used by internal things like whatever this "News and Interests" widget is they have on the taskbar now. Regular web links will open in your default browser, Firefox or otherwise. I'm ok with that. I doubt Microsoft wants support calls about how someone clicked on their widget and the resulting page didn't render properly because user was on X browser. As long as this is redirection for built-in OS things only, I'll give them a pass.
- MereInterest 5y ago
  So, if you want to override the users choice of browser, it's acceptable if you first replace "https:// https://" with "microsoft-edge://" ? They're doing the exact same behavior, just with two steps instead of one.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    I mean if I specified "firefox://" should that be overwritten too?
    - atrus 5y ago
      Yeah? Isn't the part before the colon just specifying the protocol? So shouldn't the software that I direct to open URLs be the software that...opens URLs?
      - garfij 5y ago
        I'm in no way defending what Microsoft is doing here, but I would like to be able to have different clients for http:// http:// & ftp://. Segregating client software by protocol makes perfect sense
        MereInterest 5y ago
        Completely agreed, and this is why conflating protocols and programs is really obnoxious. This seems really common in proprietary software, where the conflation is deliberate, no protocol spec is defined, and the implication is that no other programs can interact with the protocol. (E.g. "zoommtg://" referring both to a software client and to a protocol.)
mavhc 5y ago
This started with Windows 10 only allowing Microsoft programs to automatically pin themselves to the Taskbar. As an experiment I left Edge on the Taskbar for my users, with Chrome on the Desktop. Chrome is 3x more popular even though Edge is a) default, b) pinned to Taskbar, and c) Syncs automatically
tentacleuno 5y ago
In my naivety, I've always thought of computers as the most free platform (despite being proprietary) you can get your hands on (I grew up with 7). Unlike Android and iOS, you have Administrator access, the ability to tamper with low-level system configuration, customise the taskbar, and a boatload of other things. I'd spend hours just sat at the computer tinkering with passwords, how things looked, etc. It's quite disheartening to see Microsoft restricting this once-semi-free platform I genuinely enjoyed using. Computers of 2010, 2006 etc. were very entertaining to customise and play around with, and part of me wants to go back to that era. The Microsoft of 2010 and under, despite having a very different stance on Linux vs. today[0], was a lot better in many ways. There was a lot less unnerving surveillance back then. Cortana didn't exist. They tried their hand at things like Windows Live (a success), Live Mesh (bit of a flop IIRC), cloud storage, etc. but they felt more like additions to the operating system rather than some deeply-engrained spyware you can't quite get rid of. Anyway, back on topic: speaking of Microsoft Edge, it always reinstalls itself whenever Windows updates. I use Windows less and less these days, as forced software on my own hardware feels unethical and immoral. [0]: https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/linux-and-open-source/why-does-microsoft-hate-linux/ https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/linux-and-open-source/why-...
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  How is it naivety? Android and iOS are far worse as “free platforms” than Windows. Those OSes aren’t improving on that front.
cesaref 5y ago
I would be interested to know how Microsoft is justifying this - what does the Edge browser do that others don't? I presume they can't argue the old 'it's an integral part of the OS' type stuff following the previous court cases about this. For example, if i'm using OSX, is there any situations where i'm forced to use Safari? I'm not aware of any, I believe I can delete Safari from Apps if I want and nothing terrible happens. It does seem peculiar, i'm guessing it's more to do with being able to claim so many users, rather than ad flinging, but really, it's a bit weird and 90s if you know what I mean.
kranke155 5y ago
Isn’t this a clear antitrust breach? It looks like it
- MichaelMoser123 5y ago
  i suspect that antritrust was a long time ago, i don't see any of this being enforced, in practise.
- orra 5y ago
  How does a lay person make their regulators actually enforce antitrust law?
gtirloni 5y ago
I don't understand the drama, really. It's not like they are restricting the default browser for web navigation in general but actually to a URL type that clearly says "edge".
- cube00 5y ago
  The problem is how they then use this URL type. You see this now in Windows 10 when any links off the lock screen always open in Edge regardless of your default browser.
ulzeraj 5y ago
In my opinion it is Windows that is improper. It is an operating system whose developers devote a lot of work to implement telemetry collectors and ads on the core UI. And the fact that they are so vocal against FF's hack is because it interferes with their telemetry golden egg.
shp0ngle 5y ago
Ah I’m happy there was never any anti-competitive ruling about bundling OS with browser, ever
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
I actually find it surprising how dedicated Microsoft seem to be in protecting Edge browser given that they just recently made the choice to rip out the engine and replace it with Google's. ... and yet Firefox is essentially verboten in this context. This statement from Microsoft sounds like a carbon copy of their approach that got them in trouble all those years ago: Windows also offers certain end-to-end customer experiences in both Windows 10, and Windows 11, the search experience from the taskbar is one such example of an end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected. The more things change... I don't want an operating system offering end to end customer experiences or any other marketing phrasing. I want an operating system that gets the fuck out of the way so I can do my stuff. And their search experience from the taskbar has always been a dud experience that I avoid wherever possible. To be fair though, Windows has been getting in the way since XP's default theme, so it's not really a sudden change of direction. It's an abusive ex that don't get why their relationships never seem to last.
INTPenis 5y ago
I remember when it was considered your computer, your OS, and you could do whatever was technically possible to it. Now it's their computer, their OS and you should be happy they allow you to use their wonderful services.
dessant 5y ago
As someone heavily invested in Firefox as a user and an extension developer, I think Mozilla deserves what they get. Their product managers have been taking the same anti-user route as a megacorp with a leading product, except Firefox has been bleeding users for years, and they have been alienating long-time users and developers on several fronts. Take the state of Firefox extensions. Firefox is the only browser where you can't install an extension until you disclose the source code to Mozilla. Both Google and Apple allows users to install an extension from a local source in the release version of Chrome and Safari, without uploading the source code to their servers. It's not just a privacy issue either. Mozilla employees can and will veto your unlisted extension that you were forced to upload for signing, so that it can be installed in your browser, and you wake up with your private and unlisted extensions having been remotely blocked by Mozilla. It is reckless and arrogant to have this attitude, especially when you're a small player in such a competitive market. https://www.jeremiahlee.com/posts/page-translator-is-dead/ https://www.jeremiahlee.com/posts/page-translator-is-dead/
- libeclipse 5y ago
  That's a myopic view to take, this hurts users way more than it hurts Mozilla
  - dessant 5y ago
    Of course, in the end users are losing the most, and Microsoft is definitely abusing their position. But we can no longer pretend that Firefox has any chance to survive with the current management, and we should definitely call them out on cultivating the same anti-user stance that they have been fighting against.
    - libeclipse 5y ago
      This is completely unrelated to the topic of the post
      - dessant 5y ago
vadfa 5y ago
I'm going to side with Microsoft here. I don't want apps to be able to change file/protocol associations on their own. If I want to set a different application as a default browser, I will go to the settings panel and change it myself.
- rubyist5eva 5y ago
  They are removing the option to be able to even set the protocol association. This has nothing to do with protecting users and everything to do with protecting their telemetry gathering. When I set a default browser, if the OS needs to open a web page I want to it to open in that browser. If Apple can do this properly, so can Microsoft. Tired of the excuses and corporate double speak bullshit.
  - pedro2 5y ago
    Manners! It's untamed corporation behaviour, not bullshit. Not on this level. Also, learn from Microsoft astroturfing manual, you should not use harsh sentences nor expletives to convey an idea. Try to frame it as a subtle doubt, in a polite way. Unless you are a reverse astroturfer, in that case, you're doing well.
    - rubyist5eva 5y ago
      > Manners! No, they've been doing this crap for decades. They don't deserve any respect or courtesy. It needs to be called out for what it is when they just brazenly think they can do whatever the hell they want because they somehow own the computer because it has their software on it.
noisy_boy 5y ago
I don't see a problem. Those who don't like Edge would be more pissed that their configured/chosen browser is being bypassed again and anything that comes out of (turning off the search on toolbar/ignoring it/taking it as the last straw and thinking of alternative OSs) is good for Firefox/Linux etc. Those who don't care about the browser, don't care anyway. And the three people who use Edge would be happier.
nojs 5y ago
Instead of preventing competitor products working on your platform, why not spend the energy learning why people avoid Edge in the first place? Forcing unwilling users into a bad product never ends well.
bodge5000 5y ago
A bit off topic, but... > but it makes Edge look bad, which is a shame because it’s not a terrible browser at all. Maybe its not a terrible browser, but first impressions count for a lot. To even use the browser for the first time you need to sit through their sales pitch (for anyone who has installed windows recently, you'll understand that all the popups and so on take much longer than you'd expect). They practically beg you not to use another browser. All this I'd say fine to. They have mistakes of the past to fix, and want people to give them a chance. Maybe not ideal, but the first time I saw this, I thought fair enough, I'll give them a chance. As soon as you do that and cave to them, the first thing they ask for is all your data, with a massive obstrusive banner that's of course intentionally difficult to say no to. Not even Chrome is so brazen as that. You give them an inch and they take a yard
robertlagrant 5y ago
I love "improper". What finishing school did you even go to, Firefox?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
leshenka 5y ago
> end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected Oh I love wording of this. It's almost like Windows 10 is a piece of art and altering it to serve end user is somehow wrong. It's almost like they think it's up to them to decide how customers can use their OS. F these weasels
coliveira 5y ago
MS never changes. They made some moves to lure developers, but their goal is and always has been to embrace, extend and extinguish.
wintermute2dot0 5y ago
This has got to be the most Orwellian thing I've read today, and Microsoft saying this unironically is just bizarre: “Windows openly enables applications and services on its platform, including various web browsers,” says a Microsoft spokesperson. “At the same time, Windows also offers certain end-to-end customer experiences in both Windows 10, and Windows 11, the search experience from the taskbar is one such example of an end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected. When we become aware of improper redirection, we issue a fix.”
- teawrecks 5y ago
  Windows isn't targeting you, they're targeting your parents/grandparents who will unintentionally put their system in a non-standard state that makes it difficult for msft or anyone else to support them. They want to lock the system down to control the experience as much as possible. Unfortunately, they believe that this one size fits all.
- grishka 5y ago
  We want our users to have choice, except in some cases in which we do our best to deny it to them.
- KoftaBob 5y ago
  Reminds me of the famous "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants, so long as it is black!" from Henry Ford.
- psyc 5y ago
  This sounds like the ol' "IE is an inextricable OS component" routine.
- aspaceman 5y ago
  Probably mean to ask this way, but why does this read like something written by a moron? Like it has this unprofessional condescending air to it.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
ubermonkey 5y ago
Holy shit that's gross. I haven't used Windows as my main OS in a really long time -- 20 years? -- and crap like this is one reason why. I thought that, with Ballmer gone, they'd stop doing deeply wrong stuff like this, but here we are.
- nivenkos 5y ago
  They've always been a fraudulent company. They lied when they licensed QDOS to use as the foundation of Windows, hiding the fact that they were working with IBM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS#Creation_of_PC_DOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS#Creation_of_PC_DOS They cheated the license with Spyglass Mosaic for Internet Explorer - making it based on software purchases and then bundling it for free with Windows so they didn't have to pay any royalties. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Internet_Explorer_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Internet_Exp... Then there's the Halloween documents, and the attempts at forcing ActiveX (and IE) on the early Web, etc. - the whole company is rotten.
  - pedro2 5y ago
    Don't worry, the market forces will force Microsoft into oblivion. They'll obliterate all competitors and become so profitable they'll force Oracle to take them out. Tada! Market forces at work once again!
  - ubermonkey 5y ago
    That kind of behavior stems from leadership, though, and the MSFT we've seen post-Ballmer has been dramatically more aware of its position in a diverse marketplace (vs. attempting to own the entire market). This kind of thing is especially apparent in interoperability -- Office on the Mac is currently as good as it's ever been; I never need to switch to Windows to get something done. Sharepoint (which is awful) now works properly on non-Windows platforms. There are excellent iOS builds of the Office tools. None of that was conceivable under Ballmer. So yes, I'm old enough to have lived through all the things you mention, but I have also noticed a distinct change in MSFT's behavior in the last 7 years. I see this kind of browser tomfoolery as a return to the bad old days, for sure.
rubyist5eva 5y ago
Even macOS isn’t egregious enough to just disrespect the user this brazenly. What a joke. Embrace freedom. Use Linux.
albertopv 5y ago
Really a dumb PR move, people willing to change default browser will do anyway and will also be pissed off. Almost everyone I know use Chrome, a few Firefox, no one use Edge.
comeonseriously 5y ago
It was a good run MS. You had everyone fooled by supporting Linux on Windows, OSS, etc.
cblconfederate 5y ago
I think microsoft is in the right here. They own that search box, just like how google owns firefox + ios + android + chrome + safari. Giving the windows box to google would be reducing competition overall, which is sorely needed in the search space. Superficially it appears to reduce user choice, but we know that on the whole that's not true.
- neatze 5y ago
  > but we know that on the whole that's not true. What do you mean exactly and who are "we" ?
- lp0_on_fire 5y ago
  huh? Firefox is created and "owned" by the Mozilla foundation. iOS and Safari are Apple...
andyp-kw 5y ago
I was going to get angry, then I remembered that I've been a Linux user for the last year, and this won't effect me.
- canadaduane 5y ago
  Kudos!
kunagi7 5y ago
A few months ago both Firefox and Brave added this workaround. Being able to modify the default app for the "microsoft-edge:" handler is something that was available since 2017 and pretty much EdgeDeflector was the main user. Most people back then said that Microsoft would never patch this thing but here we are. Having a <0.1% of users bypassing your custom handler isn't relevant at all. But having 5~6% of them is not. If your competitor (Microsoft) plays dirty and you play even dirtier (Brave, Firefox) at their own field, they will notice it, patch it and use it against you. Since antitrust doesn't seem to work in the US... Maybe Microsoft will get another anti-trust fine from the EU and they'll forced to disable this handler at least inside the EU market.
- sounds 5y ago
  What Microsoft is losing is mindshare with their customers. It'll be a piece of cake, once their customers are angry enough, for a new tool to become popular that circumvents whatever "patch" Microsoft puts out. The emperor has no clothes.
tester34 5y ago
HN seems to overreact on this hard If user clicks on e.g "Open in Edge" button and FF intercepts URL with Microsoft's "microsoft-edge protocol" and opens FF, then what's so shocking about the fact that MS is not happy about this? inb4: I'm saying it as a FF user.
- Ajedi32 5y ago
  It wouldn't be a problem if Microsoft only used that protocol handler for an "Open in Edge" button. The problem is they use it pretty much everywhere. Search the web from the start menu? That's a Microsoft Edge link. Click a link in the settings app? It's a Microsoft Edge link. They're effectively just using the handler as a way to bypass the user's choice of default browser, which is why Firefox had to implement this work-around in the first place.
- postalrat 5y ago
  Is there a "Open in Firefox" button near the "Open in Edge" button?
- burkaman 5y ago
  The button doesn't say "Open in Edge", it says "See web results". Do you think an average user would expect that to open in their default web browser?
  - tester756 5y ago
    I believe that "See web results" shouldn't use Edge Protocol, instead of Firefox intercepting Edge Protocol. What about stuff that doesn't really work in FF or has terrible performance and Windows/MS wanted to open it in Edge?
    - burkaman 5y ago
      Yes, but it does use Edge Protocol. That's why some HN users are upset. I don't think it's an overreaction, and you seem to agree that it's wrong. Responding to your edit: If Microsoft creates a new type of page that works well in Edge but not other browsers, they can make a new protocol for it and allow other browser to support the protocol if they want to. In fact that's exactly what happened here: Microsoft added a new protocol, Firefox said "we support this new protocol with full performance and functionality, so we should be able to open it".
pre 5y ago
Really what I want is for the task-bar to not send everything to a search-engine anyway. I don't want web-results in a task-bar-search at all. I'm trying to launch a program, not tell Microsoft-search the names of every program I launch.
- deburo 5y ago
  HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Search Set to 0 the following keys (add them if needed) - BingSearchEnabled (DWORD) - CortanaConsent (DWORD) I've been running w/ those since Windows 1903, and that's why I don't care about all those Edge shenanigans (except the default browser switcher). All those sub-par web experiences in the Windows Shell are tiresome. Taskbar search breaking because of internet issues tops it all off nicely.
  - pre 5y ago
    Thanks. Will try and have a look next time I'm forced to boot into windows. Used to be that Windows users would complain that Linux made them edit arcane config files, I guess now it's Linux users that complain about Windows needing you to edit arcane registry settings.
  - dbmnt 5y ago
    These registry keys are completely ignored on the latest version of Windows 11. MS documented the change here, very buried: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications#primaryR3 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica... Look under "Feature deprecations and removals" > "Search Results from the Internet" and you see: "Windows 11 does not support disabling the return of internet Search results via Registry Key." They imply there that you can still use Group Policy to make this change, but... that doesn't work either in the latest builds.
    - pre 5y ago
      Oh. :(
    - deburo 5y ago
mnadkvlb 5y ago
Can someone recommend a linux distro where i can run steam and get most games. I know some games dont run on linux at all. I am using a last gen threadeipper and 1080ti. at this point i am ready to jump the MS ship completely.
- prohobo 5y ago
  Pop!_OS (especially for NVIDIA) or Ubuntu 21.10, imo. Install Steam and enable Proton. Most of your games should run the same as on Windows, or better, and it's rapidly improving.
  - mnadkvlb 5y ago
    Thanks a lot, will give it a shot. Had been using fedora in past, but gaming was crap on it.
- godshatter 5y ago
  I use Ubuntu, and most of my games work great. Check protondb.com to see if your critical games work well or not in linux through steam. Some may require special switches to be add in the game setup in Steam to get them to run well. There is also a version of proton (which is Steams's additions to Wine which is what lets you make Windows API calls) called glorious eggroll that implements some fixes that haven't yet made it to proton. Make sure you install the proprietary nvidia drivers, and you should be all set. It's truly a new world for gaming in linux now. I've been on linux since the early 2000s and had basically given up on getting almost anything to run through wine. Now almost everything in my steam catalog runs fine. Just a heads-up that it's not all roses, though. There may be games that run fine for some people but don't on your setup, and anything with anti-cheat is basically not going to run yet, though Valve is working hard on that problem. You may find issues with alt-tabbing from fullscreen games, you might find that some games rely on an api that isn't working in proton or wine yet. For example, I play Phasmophobia solo, and that works great for the most part but they rely on Cortana for voice recognition, and that isn't implemented yet. I can make noise and ghosts will hear me, but they won't understand what I'm saying. In my opinion any issues you run into will be small fish in comparison to issues thrust upon you by Microsoft being Microsoft, but they will seem huge at first because you're probably used to trying to solve problems the "microsoft way". Once you get past a few you'll be doing great.
908087 5y ago
I know history tends to repeat itself, but I honestly didn't expect this particular bit of history to repeat itself with basically the same players again so soon.
prohobo 5y ago
I left the Windows ecosystem at the right time it seems... Something about Windows 11 made me not want to upgrade and just take my chances with Linux. I feel like Microsoft is slowly consolidating against consumers in more and more egregious ways, and it's not worth it anymore (especially because of Proton, lol).
indymike 5y ago
I'm dropping support for employees at my two companies even using Windows on our network. No more of this. This whole industry is 20 years behind thanks to a couple of decades of these kind of shenanigans. Micorsoft wishes to embrace and extend the entire HTTP and HTTPS protocols and by doing so, has blown up their last shred of trust.
vinaypai 5y ago
It's pretty pathetic that the only way Microsoft can get people to use their browser is to force it on them against their will. It's an admission that it's literally overpriced at "free".
coldacid 5y ago
Yet another reason to skip Windows 11. At this point I wish we could roll back to Windows 2000.
theknocker 5y ago
I am about to stop using Windows in real life.
Andrex 5y ago
This week I finally made the decision to ditch Windows 10 and move to Elementary OS on my desktop computer (my laptop is a Pixelbook). I was attempting to edit videos. I plug in an external hard drive with my footage, and... nothing. Well, not nothing. It's there in Devices & Printers. It's able to be ejected safely. Troubleshooter has no problems. But nothing in Explorer or any other obvious place you'd think. Panicking, I plugged the same drive into Chrome OS. Literally three seconds later I was browsing my footage. That's the point I got up from my desk and said, "I'm done." I'm so over Windows. They spend how much time and effort shoving a Linux environment into things when they apparently can't even support widely-used filesystems. The fact my external drive is mountable by both Chrome OS (where the code for mounting is open source) and macOS (a closed-source OS used by a minority of the populace) but not Windows is an utter joke. I shouldn't have to spend all this time trying to access my files in 2021. This is something that should Just Work. This was just the straw that broke the camel's back. I've had several minor and major annoyances with Microsoft's treatment of Windows ever since Windows 8, and none of them have gotten better. - Constantly degrading your choice of default browser, as in the OP. - WTF is "3D Objects" and why does it always bubble up from the pits of hell even when I delete it? Microsoft is very opinionated about the User folder in general, while I think they should be as hands-off as possible. Stop adding folders I didn't ask for and stop resurrecting them after they're deleted. Why is this so hard? - Ditto the last point for OneDrive. - Windows 11-specific, but adding ads to the taskbar? In a paid OS that the OEMs are already footing the bill for and bundling whatever extra crapware they want? https://betanews.com/2021/09/04/microsoft-crowbars-ads-into-windows-11-and-breaks-the-start-menu-and-taskbar/ https://betanews.com/2021/09/04/microsoft-crowbars-ads-into-... - Obscuring local account creation to a ridiculous degree in Windows 10 (you need to literally disable Wi-Fi or unplug Ethernet to even see the option) has gotten even WORSE in Windows 11. Now you can't even set up a local account at all unless you shell out extra for Windows 11 Pro! They've learned nothing from the Xbox One always-online debacle, and honestly looking back, this should have been the dealbreaker. But I thought, "hey, I don't create accounts that often, this is something I can live with." No longer. - The amount of analytics and data-gathering in Windows is the worst it's ever been, and worse than any comparable OS. "You can turn it off though." Well, maybe. Until Windows Update decides it knows better and turns it back on. - This is purely aesthetic, but Windows 8 and 10 looked utterly horrible if you did anything more than look at the desktop and open the Start Menu. Clashing styles and UX edicts from decades of past releases, in very visible places. It gives the impression Microsoft just doesn't give a shit. And don't tell me "it's too hard to update everything in time for release." It's not everything, and Microsoft is a big boy with lots of money and developers. They decided they just don't care. - When trying to migrate my files in preparation for moving to Elementary, I plugged in an SD Card and got BSOD'd immediately. Absolutely wonderful quality control. People complain Linux is buggy and you have to jump through hoops to do what you want? Windows is now that x100. It's not getting better or even staying the same. Microsoft is actively making Windows worse for their own ends. Thankfully I have the choice and ability to install an alternative, but my heart goes out to those with no choice. It's Orwellian. [this is a slightly updated version of a comment I posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881]
0xTJ 5y ago
Microsoft is slowly pushing me back to Linux. VS Code and WSL had me fairly content for a while, but as time goes on, I'm thinking more and more about how little of what I do actually needs Windows at this point. I miss my days using Arch, and it's more likely that I'll switch back to that than that I move to Windows 11.
Causality1 5y ago
Gods I miss the days when I got so excited for a Windows release. Now it's nothing but a constant stream of "fuck you-s" from Microsoft. I'd give anything to see a Windows install screen and smile again.
rackjack 5y ago
Again? > Ah, the eternal cycle of: Microsoft does something bad, then people move to Linux, then they get dragged by Linux's rough new user experience, then they leave Linux, then things are fine for a while, then people mock Linux users for being paranoid, then Microsoft does something bad... here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201872 At this point we can skip the "mock" step.
flerovium 5y ago
"Browser wars" reminder: Much less egregious behavior was deemed illegal circa 2000s.[1][2] The EU went so far as to require that the default choice be set randomly based on current browser market share. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission
dancemethis 5y ago
Microsoft is improper.
smilekzs 5y ago
They need to get sued and lose simply by repeating what they did with IE4.0. Alongside Apple with the Apple Tax.
dimgl 5y ago
I installed Windows 11 and my god... what a goddamn mistake. I had to reformat and go back to Windows 10. They screwed it up yet again. So much UI/UX regression. It's hard to believe they haven't learned their lesson after so many years, honestly.
unnouinceput 5y ago
Time to go full nuclear on Microsoft and replace Edge entirely with a stub that will open what you want (Firefox in my case). Basically create a rootkit just for this shitshow
Tozen 5y ago
Surprise, surprise. Microsoft being the big bully on the block, and being slick about allowing users to freely choose what browser they want to use. If a person doesn't use Edge by default, then there might be trouble and for any workarounds. Yeah, choose Firefox or Brave, but then Windows will start acting "funny" about it or make life difficult.
Ciantic 5y ago
I have been loyal, if grumpy, Windows user for all my life. But they really did broke something in me with the Windows 11, and these -- moves. They really are intent on burning bridges now! I don't want my operating system to dictating behavior of taskbar, default browsers, etc. I'm planning switch to Linux, when I can figure which one. It will be laborious, as I have years of workflow helpers built in AutoHotkey, custom DLL's and some Win32 applications. I never liked the Windows' command prompt / Powershell. All my servers have been Linux boxes so I've known bash way better, so that part will be really easy, in fact joyous to get rid of command propmpt / powershell.
- dimgl 5y ago
  Good luck. I had massive problems switching to Linux. Most of the people on Hacker News are saying it's me. Yet Windows works just fine. So yeah idk.
  - Ciantic 5y ago
    What kind of problems? Technical problems, to get it running at all? Or some taste related things. I'm more worried I don't like the font rendering because I'm so used to ClearType, even though I can run Windows 2x mode as I have dual 4k screens. I'm only slightly worried about technical problems, because I've periodically booted up to Linux from USB sticks. It's just small things are difficult, like getting 4K video to work smoothly etc.
    - nick__m 5y ago
      Installing Arch is a great learning experience! That said, if you do not have the time to read the excellent Arch install documentation you could give Manjaro a try.
- djsbs 5y ago
  Id recommend Debian. After many years (2005-2011) of searching, I like it best. It is the most likely to just work. If you’re very adventurous and have a lot of free time to explore, install Arch. Its documentation is excellent.
ww520 5y ago
What was Microsoft's settlement with DOJ regarding the anti-trust suit? What browser unbundling one of the key items back then?
Angostura 5y ago
Microsoft should use a different App if they want to provide this soft of end-to-end experience. A specialised simple html rendered.
implfuture 5y ago
> the search experience from the taskbar is one such example of an end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected The bing searches that appear in my taskbar search have never been useful and just pollute the local results I’m looking for. I’ve tried disabling them with regedit tricks to no avail.
- deburo 5y ago
  How so? I'm running Windows Pro 21H1, and the registry key works. Or perhaps it's a GPO?
calibas 5y ago
United States v. Microsoft Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
stevehawk 5y ago
if SteamOS is worth half a damn then I will be done with Windows forever.
shmerl 5y ago
Microsoft is improper. Should be blocked by anti-trust.
AniseAbyss 5y ago
I actually like win11 but this is such a bullshit move. And fuck the corporate speak. Everyone knows why you're doing it: to boost Edge adoption. Who do you think you're fooling here? Self delusion?
dang 5y ago
Recent major threads on this: Microsoft to Block Windows 11 Browser Workarounds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201027 - Nov 2021 (105 comments) You can no longer bypass microsoft-edge:// links using apps like EdgeDeflector - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29191244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29191244 - Nov 2021 (171 comments) This is a lot more obvious once we change the URL from the submitted one (https://www.howtogeek.com/768727/microsoft-calls-firefoxs-browser-workaround-improper-will-block-it/ https://www.howtogeek.com/768727/microsoft-calls-firefoxs-br...) to the article it's copying.
Bud 5y ago
Even the mere existence of this bullshit URL type "microsoft-edge://" is heinous and should be illegal. Or, if we can't make it illegal, can't we have some sort of URL-protection vigilante squad?
XorNot 5y ago
Shouldn't Microsoft be getting done on anti-trust for this? This...seems overtly like what they were originally sued for back in the early 2000s.
Nightshaderr 5y ago
Instructions unclear. Install Debian 11 and be done with Microsoft?

885 points by Vinnl 5y ago

Reminds me of their opt out strategy. You can opt out of their stupid behaviour (eg win10 welcome screen that pops up every now and then after boot) but then again after some updates they introduced just another switch that is turned on by default, ignoring effectively the user's choice of opt out. Group policies have a shitload of these switches...

chinathrow 5y ago

> “At the same time, Windows also offers certain end-to-end customer experiences in both Windows 10, and Windows 11, the search experience from the taskbar is one such example of an end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected. When we become aware of improper redirection, we issue a fix.” Hey team at MS who implements stuff like that: How does it feel working on this? Genuinely interested.

pedro2 5y ago
Like playing cat and mouse, I'd suppose. And it will be fun.
- chinathrow 5y ago
  More like a waste for everyone, including the courts.

topynate 5y ago

The phrase "offers certain end-to-end customer experiences" could be applied to anything that happens while you're using Windows – so it doesn't mean anything. For Microsoft to label what Firefox and Edge are doing "improper redirection" is just rubbing it in. A problem of propriety is just one of failing to meet some conventional standard. But there's no community here whose mores are being violated, the convention is no more than whatever some VP wants.

account-5 5y ago

There really are no trust worthy tech companies. All they care about is money. If I'm being advertised to I'm not paying for the priveledge. There will be another work around I'm sure. I can't add anything constructive this sort of stuff really annoys me and I end up on a rant.

jchw 5y ago

It’s improper to invent a custom scheme that specifically opens a URL in a browser the user neither uses nor wants. I think some Microsoft employees should check out their own Wikipedia page sometime for an interesting history lesson.

HeavyStorm 5y ago

I'm skipping windows 11. With some luck, Valve work on Linux (photon) and steamsOS will finally free me from msft.

windex 5y ago

Here we go again. I want MS to understand that I want it to get out of my workflow once I paid for it. Just get out of and stop making me jump through hoops. I am tired of this corporate doublespeak nonsense.

dschuetz 5y ago
Yes, exactly. Microsoft products try to be smarter than the rest of the world and it's infuriating. Office, Teams (worst software ever to be forced to use in corporate), Edge and now we get Windows 11, the Windows version we supposedly would never get, remember? Windows 10 being the last? Microsoft will never change. Microsoft is the next IBM. Remember IBM? They are selling blockchains, quantum computers and magical AI products now.

teawrecks 5y ago

Microsoft is improper. I will block it.

hmrr 5y ago

I call Microsoft’s implementation improper. Will block them from my purchasing in future.

danpalmer 5y ago

Regardless of whether this is anti-competitive enough to be illegal, I'm surprised that Microsoft are going anywhere near this issue given their history of legal trouble with giving preferential treatment to their own browser.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
My feeling is MS maybe have paid^W campaign-contributed to the right people on both sides of the Atlantic, that they're not worried about this.
- saint_angels 5y ago
  if so, what did change so it wasn't feasible before? Now MS has more money to pay?
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    I wonder if there's a survey that asks OECD citizens if they feel like in the last 20 years their country has: a) become less corrupt b) become more corrupt c) stayed the same
- jeltz 5y ago
  How would campaign contributions help in the EU? The people they would need to pay off are all unelected judges and prosecutors. The elected officials do not how much power to affect anything.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    I should've also added lobbying. Like Microsoft trying to stop Munich to switch to Linux: https://www.information-age.com/ballmer-lobbying-fails-to-prevent-linux-defection-297691/ https://www.information-age.com/ballmer-lobbying-fails-to-pr... Although that's from 2006, in 2013 this article says the migration was finished: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-munich-rejected-steve-ballmer-and-kicked-microsoft-out-of-the-city/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-munich-rejected-ste... But I'm not sure if they've stayed with Linux or returned to Microsoft in the last 8 years... EDIT, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#Timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#Timeline, in 2017 some politicians said they're switching to Windows 10 by 2020, in 2020 other politicians U-turned on that decision.

xaduha 5y ago

Windows 10 LTSC 2021 is out, I think it has Edge in it still, but I don't think it has this nonsense.

yourusername 5y ago
LTSC is not legal to run for the vast majority of users and Office is not supported on it. That's not really a solution.
- curiousgal 5y ago
  > Office is not supported I mean realistically how many times have you ever had to reach out to support regarding an issue with Office?
  - cube00 5y ago
    Try telling your security department they're on an unsupported configuration and see how long before your higher ups request an audience with you for a "quick chat"
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  What versions? Would installing something like Office 2016 work?
- KindOne 5y ago
  You can buy a LTSC license for a single computer. https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-instructions-for-purchasing-a-windows-10-ltsc-license https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2167558-explicit-inst...

noahtallen 5y ago

Microsoft’s reasoning is that features like search is an end to end experience. That’s odd to me — it just opens a web page. Is there anything special about it being in Edge that we don’t notice? I mean, obviously it’s BS, but are there PMs who actually think it’s better for the user to override the default browser for things like this? A side note: one frustrating aspect of this problem is that my browser extensions are never installed in Edge. So things like password autofill in a lot of the MS auth flows (which appear to be web-based, as far as I can tell) just don’t work

skohan 5y ago
Well obviously they lose telemetry when you leave the ms ecosystem, so the user journey has effectively ended at that point /s > things like password autofill in a lot of the MS auth flows (which appear to be web-based, as far as I can tell) just don’t work Cynically I could believe this is partly by design. If they manage to get you into edge often enough, sooner or later you'll set up your workflows in edge as well out of annoyance. Maintaining two separate browser environments is a burden, and sooner or later a lot of people will give up and stick to the browser you have to use in many cases.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  Do they really need Edge to gather your data if they own the OS? > Maintaining two separate browser environments is a burden For my personal use I have 4 distinct browsers (FF, Brave, Ungoogled Chromium and Falkon) but I guess I'm probably an outlier ;)
  - Andrex 5y ago
    > Do they really need Edge to gather your data if they own the OS? "Need?" No. But that wasn't the question MS asked themselves. The question was probably "More data or less?" Framed like that, it's unfortunately obvious why they chose this route.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> We’ll have to wait and see how this plays out in the future, but it makes Edge look bad, which is a shame because it’s not a terrible browser at all. No, it's just evil. An axe is just a tool unless wielded by a dark clown. Edge would probably be a reasonable browser in the hands of literally anyone other than microsoft.

travisporter 5y ago
Is there a chromium-like fork for edge?
- kahrl 5y ago
  Yes. It's called Edge.
- tristor 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure that's just Chromium, there's not that many differences between Edge and Chromium already.
tetraca 5y ago
Without Microsoft, Edge would just be another chromium fork for the pile. If it's not directly imposed on you, it would have little value to add.

dartharva 5y ago

They can try as much as they want, but they'll never manage to make the majority use Edge.

AndroidKitKat 5y ago
They're well on the way to being the second most popular. [1] [1]: https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop/worldwide https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share/desktop/worl...
CountDrewku 5y ago
I'd use edge over chrome. Still sticking with FF for now though.

DrBazza 5y ago

Microsoft returning to its early 00s attitude. I wonder if the EU will step in and make this an anti-competitive thing. Yet another reason to not install Windows 11, including telemetry, adverts, an always on internet connection, and abandoning perfectly functioning hardware in favour of TPM chips.

skohan 5y ago
This in particular seems to blatantly fly in the face of the precedent which was established by the earlier anti-trust judgements against them. It almost seems as if they believe anti-trust has been effectively killed between then and now, and they're ready to poke the bear to verify that it's dead.
- Ygg2 5y ago
  Judging at the current state of Internet, anti-trust is not just dead, but cremated, and thrown into the sea.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    I wouldn't be so sure, here across the pond we tend to slap these arrogant giants from time to time with few billions fine. Still just cost of doing their often amoral business, but often a big one.
    - zwaps 5y ago
      As a European, I am pretty sure. These cases are fought for years, and theorized over for decades. In the meantime, the companies have gained or lost market share, profits and future revenues move in whatever direction, and the court ruling and the fine have little importance. This may have been different some time ago. Nowadays, however, rest assured that no internet company will be deterred by pesky things such as laws, morality or ethics. If market share is at stake, that is. This goes for Microsoft as much as for Google and Facebook. Google settles important cases (data related) to not have any legislative interference, and will pay the fine for everything else. Microsoft would be foolish to do anything else. The companies are more powerful than the legal systems in the EU. Not the EU, mind you - if the will was there. But it isn't. Look at the fines, look at the dollars actually being paid. And then look at the prospect of gaining 30,40 maybe 50% market share in the browser market - now that all bets are off and Microsoft has gone back to just siphoning off all data without even giving normal users a choice. Yeah. Don't be naive.

leokennis 5y ago

How is this even worth it to MS? Do they really expect people who go through the effort of installing a third party browser and setting it as default to switch back to Edge because of the grand experience they had with it when Windows opened some help article in it? How much money do they make of the 0.000001% of users who do the above? How much money do they lose because of the reputation damage and increased regulator attention because of it? I cannot think of any scenario where, money wise, this is a net positive for MS.

danmur 5y ago
Have to find something for their engineers to do so they don't have time to make Teams usable
- rk06 5y ago
  If anything, teams is now more unusable. I have set Firefox as deault web browser, but Teams still opens urls in Edge. And I could not find a way to fix it, or identify why Teams is doing it?
  - tatersolid 5y ago
    I have Firefox as my default browser, and all of my teams links open in Firefox. I’m not sure you have things configured correctly, or your Organization has added some thirty-party security stuff on top of Teams.
  - tallanvor 5y ago
    That is a particularly annoying thing. The good news is that you can fix that, even though you shouldn't have to. Open Edge and go to Settings > Profiles > Profile preferences and toggle off "Use Microsoft Edge to open links from other Microsoft apps".
    - whyoh 5y ago
      God, that's such a typical new-Microsoft dark pattern; hiding the toggle for an annoyance in some weird location, hoping the user doesn't find it. It's everywhere in Windows 10.

arnklint 5y ago

Why? Like from the user perspective, why? Did Ballmer have anything to do with this decision?

capableweb 5y ago
You somehow think that all the bad decisions from Microsoft comes directly from Ballmer? There are plenty of people at Microsoft (still) who think like Ballmer did, and they will in the future too. The decisions that come from Microsoft comes from the entire of Microsoft, and they are all contributing to it happening too.

alxlaz 5y ago

What is this I hear about a new Microsoft?

Stranger43 5y ago
It never included the windows/office teams otherwise we would have had a native port if office to Linux. What happened was merely that azure was given the same freedom the Xbox division used to have to operate in their market niche as if they were an independent company with no obligation to promote Microsofts other products, and it's a question if that is actually going to last.
- dagw 5y ago
  otherwise we would have had a native port if office to Linux. Do you really believe that is the only reason we don't have a native port of Office for Linux? If Microsoft released a version of MS Office for Linux tomorrow, that was just as compatible with the Windows version as the Mac version is, how many extra licenses do you think they would sell?

jokethrowaway 5y ago

>> We’ll have to wait and see how this plays out in the future, but it makes Edge look bad, which is a shame because it’s not a terrible browser at all. Thank you, it's basically Chromium with MS spyware instead of the usual Google one

dustinmoris 5y ago

This just shows how Microsoft's internal structure harms users. PMs get paid based on idiot stats and the more the Internet Explorer Edge team can increase IE Edge usage the more they get in bonus payments. So they force it on their Windows users down their throat, completely disregarding how awful of an experience this is as long as they get a better pay check. The same happened with Teams. The Teams PM managed to get Teams integrated into Windows 11 in order to increase its usage stats for a better bonus. Honestly, I don't know why so many people, especially developers still use Windows. I am 100% convinced that developers on Windows who are still using Windows as their main OS for software dev have not tried another OS for at least a few months to give it a proper try. It's unimaginable how an intelligent human being would otherwise like Windows. There is nothing to like about it. Windows 11 was a massive downgrade from 10 as well.

fleaaaa 5y ago
Only if proprietary softwares outside of dev toolchains support linux natively, I do really want that but in reality it is not.
- skohan 5y ago
  Which software would you need to work to make the switch? So much of what I use is web-based nowadays, it's only really dev tools and games which I care about running natively. The former is best-in-class on Linux, and the latter is getting pretty darned good.
  - michaelt 5y ago
    There will always be some people who are stuck on Windows, because there will always be some people who need to use things like SolidWorks / Fusion 360 / Altium / Zemax.
  - fleaaa 5y ago
    Not much actually, Ableton Live, Max/MSP and loads of ancient VSTs. Yes I tried ardour, bitwig and reaper but those aren't enough for my workflow unfortunately. Also HW supports isn't great on linux when it comes to various combination of external audio gears. Like another child comment said, I've tried multiple distros for years as well but always came back to win cause I can't be bothered to maintain two different OS in my flavor. Windows is cumbersome for sure but it can be mitigated at the end of the day. Windows is not my fave OS per se but just works in most cases.. I've been actually a mac user for a long time but it sucked on HW/SW in my case. I ditched mac like a couple years ago but now It might be in a better fit..

caf 5y ago

Isn't this just going to teach people not to use their crummy search box, if it opens things in the browser that they don't want to use?

daemin 5y ago
For a lot of technical people they start applications by hitting the Windows key and then typing. If you do this quickly and accidentally mistype something you'll most likely end up doing a search.
- cube00 5y ago
  I can't say I enjoy firing off a web search for "Windows update" in Bing which appears faster then the local system match for Windows Update somehow (or cynically perhaps by design)

mactavish88 5y ago

The last version of Windows I used was Windows XP. I since switched to various Linux distros and macOS, now settling on a combination of Debian and Ubuntu as my daily laptop/server OS’s. My initial reasons for my leaving the Microsoft world were because I didn’t agree with Microsoft’s ethics: it’s like being an exploitative, self-serving (as opposed to user-serving) conglomerate is wired into its company structure. MS’s great work with VS Code got me thinking that maybe there’s some hope for them as an organization, but every time I peek back into the Microsoft world like this I’m even less inclined to ever go back. I mean, their customers are actively developing workarounds for their shitty dark UX patterns, and their response is basically: “sorry, we insist that you adhere to our dark UX patterns”. Fuck that. Life’s too short for that bullshit. Vote with your time, money and attention.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I agree. My jump was from Windows 7, when MS announced requirements for Windows 11 that seemed to try the trusted computing thing again. I have Windows 10 in a VM. It is not horrible once debloated, but my daily driver at this point is PopOS, which I can happily recommend. If only we could now get linux phone done ( and no, mobile ubuntu does not count ) to where desktop is today, I think I would be content.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > ( and no, mobile ubuntu does not count ) How about Librem 5: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5?
  - heywherelogingo 5y ago
    52 week wait and overpriced.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      If you want to change the industry, you have to vote with your wallet. There is no other way.

daemin 5y ago

I put this on par with Google automatically signing you in to Chrome when you log into any one of its services, or even the mandatory Windows Online account that you need to install Windows 11 (and to a lesser extent 10). Just user hostile actions in the name of "convenience" (for the product owner / business).

thrower123 5y ago

The heavy-handedness at Microsoft right now is surprising. Is there some kind of internal power struggle going on?

cube00 5y ago
Doesn't seem like much has changed, Windows 10 was always nagging me to restore my default browser back to the "recommended" one. Currently I have a permanent icon on the top of my settings panel "Web browsing: restore recommended" that I can't remove unless I go back to Edge.

Aeolun 5y ago

I am so happy to have switched to Pop OS around two years ago. I’ve just become completely immune to random updates, shutdowns, and all evil Microsoft news. I never quite understood what kind of difference it makes, but my computer feels like it’s my own again. Anyway, on topic, yeah, eventually they’ll get antitrust slapped again.

christophilus 5y ago
Windows to OSX to Fedora was my path. Never been happier with my computers.
neop1x 5y ago
11 years ago European Commision ordered them to let the user chose which browser to use. How come they are now forcing their browser again without asking users?! https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/02/microsoft?&ampcf=1 https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/02/microsoft...

angeland89 5y ago

If I understands this correctly. Microsoft wants links tagged with edge to always open in edge on windows. The people that made both edge and windows want a tag made for edge and windows to perform as expected in edge and windows. I don't see an issue.

anotherhue 5y ago

The core phrase here is they're calling something the "microsoft-edge protocol". Which I must assume is ActiveX.

jeroenhd 5y ago
No, it's much more basic than that. The system launches a URL starting with microsoft-edge: and uses the protocol handling system to open that in the Edge browser.

cute_boi 5y ago

Ok where are all those people who had convinced me Microsoft has changed their hostile behavior? I mean how can they change when their dna is like this. Do people really think if some company like facebook/microsoft spends some dime they can whitewash their tarnished reputation? Can we buy reputation from money? Lets not create utopia for sophist corporation. And their browser is not better than ungoogled chromium or vivaldi or firefox. Their browser despite being copy of opensource hasn't even published the source (I understand its BSD). Will we get edgium?

dustinmoris 5y ago
It's called Azure Microsoft Windows Internet Explorer Edge, not Edgium. Edgium would be way too short for a Microsoft product name of the 2020s.
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
> Can we buy reputation from money? Yes, apparently they can. There used to be huge threads here on HN on how today's MS has nothing to do with its past, that it's ridiculous to believe that the company will always stay the same, that the Ballmer epoch is all over. I mean yes, these people are right, MS is a different company - but will still do grayish stuff on the verge of legality, as long as they can go unpunished. And because corporations are not people, apparently we can only speak about the legal aspect, not the moral one (as if nobody was personally responsible for these decisions).
- pmontra 5y ago
  Corporations are made by people and are led by people. I wish we get rid of the limited responsibility stuff. You're the CEO, you go to jail. This would probably break large companies in a multitude of much smaller ones to manage risks. How many people can you manage and be reasonably sure don't do something that sends you to jail? Not many. We would still have software, FOSS demonstrate it, and entrepreneurs would still find a way to create new things.
  - aspaceman 5y ago

sourthyme 5y ago

Is there a way to disable the searchbar from accessing the internet entirely?

sourthyme 5y ago
This easier than I thought. Windows+S and then in the cog you can disable web results.
mkl 5y ago
Just turn off the search bar. You gain a whole lot of taskbar space, and in my experience Windows search is almost useless anyway. For files Everything [1] is far superior. [1] https://www.voidtools.com/ https://www.voidtools.com/

EMM_386 5y ago

I'm actually ok with this, and I don't use Edge. This is only for links using the microsoft-edge protocol, which is used by internal things like whatever this "News and Interests" widget is they have on the taskbar now. Regular web links will open in your default browser, Firefox or otherwise. I'm ok with that. I doubt Microsoft wants support calls about how someone clicked on their widget and the resulting page didn't render properly because user was on X browser. As long as this is redirection for built-in OS things only, I'll give them a pass.

MereInterest 5y ago
So, if you want to override the users choice of browser, it's acceptable if you first replace "https:// https://" with "microsoft-edge://" ? They're doing the exact same behavior, just with two steps instead of one.
- Spivak 5y ago
  I mean if I specified "firefox://" should that be overwritten too?
  - atrus 5y ago
    Yeah? Isn't the part before the colon just specifying the protocol? So shouldn't the software that I direct to open URLs be the software that...opens URLs?
    - garfij 5y ago
      I'm in no way defending what Microsoft is doing here, but I would like to be able to have different clients for http:// http:// & ftp://. Segregating client software by protocol makes perfect sense
      - MereInterest 5y ago
        Completely agreed, and this is why conflating protocols and programs is really obnoxious. This seems really common in proprietary software, where the conflation is deliberate, no protocol spec is defined, and the implication is that no other programs can interact with the protocol. (E.g. "zoommtg://" referring both to a software client and to a protocol.)

mavhc 5y ago

This started with Windows 10 only allowing Microsoft programs to automatically pin themselves to the Taskbar. As an experiment I left Edge on the Taskbar for my users, with Chrome on the Desktop. Chrome is 3x more popular even though Edge is a) default, b) pinned to Taskbar, and c) Syncs automatically

tentacleuno 5y ago

In my naivety, I've always thought of computers as the most free platform (despite being proprietary) you can get your hands on (I grew up with 7). Unlike Android and iOS, you have Administrator access, the ability to tamper with low-level system configuration, customise the taskbar, and a boatload of other things. I'd spend hours just sat at the computer tinkering with passwords, how things looked, etc. It's quite disheartening to see Microsoft restricting this once-semi-free platform I genuinely enjoyed using. Computers of 2010, 2006 etc. were very entertaining to customise and play around with, and part of me wants to go back to that era. The Microsoft of 2010 and under, despite having a very different stance on Linux vs. today[0], was a lot better in many ways. There was a lot less unnerving surveillance back then. Cortana didn't exist. They tried their hand at things like Windows Live (a success), Live Mesh (bit of a flop IIRC), cloud storage, etc. but they felt more like additions to the operating system rather than some deeply-engrained spyware you can't quite get rid of. Anyway, back on topic: speaking of Microsoft Edge, it always reinstalls itself whenever Windows updates. I use Windows less and less these days, as forced software on my own hardware feels unethical and immoral. [0]: https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/linux-and-open-source/why-does-microsoft-hate-linux/ https://www.techrepublic.com/blog/linux-and-open-source/why-...

skinnymuch 5y ago
How is it naivety? Android and iOS are far worse as “free platforms” than Windows. Those OSes aren’t improving on that front.

cesaref 5y ago

I would be interested to know how Microsoft is justifying this - what does the Edge browser do that others don't? I presume they can't argue the old 'it's an integral part of the OS' type stuff following the previous court cases about this. For example, if i'm using OSX, is there any situations where i'm forced to use Safari? I'm not aware of any, I believe I can delete Safari from Apps if I want and nothing terrible happens. It does seem peculiar, i'm guessing it's more to do with being able to claim so many users, rather than ad flinging, but really, it's a bit weird and 90s if you know what I mean.

kranke155 5y ago

Isn’t this a clear antitrust breach? It looks like it

MichaelMoser123 5y ago
i suspect that antritrust was a long time ago, i don't see any of this being enforced, in practise.
orra 5y ago
How does a lay person make their regulators actually enforce antitrust law?

gtirloni 5y ago

I don't understand the drama, really. It's not like they are restricting the default browser for web navigation in general but actually to a URL type that clearly says "edge".

cube00 5y ago
The problem is how they then use this URL type. You see this now in Windows 10 when any links off the lock screen always open in Edge regardless of your default browser.

ulzeraj 5y ago

In my opinion it is Windows that is improper. It is an operating system whose developers devote a lot of work to implement telemetry collectors and ads on the core UI. And the fact that they are so vocal against FF's hack is because it interferes with their telemetry golden egg.

shp0ngle 5y ago

Ah I’m happy there was never any anti-competitive ruling about bundling OS with browser, ever

BLKNSLVR 5y ago

I actually find it surprising how dedicated Microsoft seem to be in protecting Edge browser given that they just recently made the choice to rip out the engine and replace it with Google's. ... and yet Firefox is essentially verboten in this context. This statement from Microsoft sounds like a carbon copy of their approach that got them in trouble all those years ago: Windows also offers certain end-to-end customer experiences in both Windows 10, and Windows 11, the search experience from the taskbar is one such example of an end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected. The more things change... I don't want an operating system offering end to end customer experiences or any other marketing phrasing. I want an operating system that gets the fuck out of the way so I can do my stuff. And their search experience from the taskbar has always been a dud experience that I avoid wherever possible. To be fair though, Windows has been getting in the way since XP's default theme, so it's not really a sudden change of direction. It's an abusive ex that don't get why their relationships never seem to last.

INTPenis 5y ago

I remember when it was considered your computer, your OS, and you could do whatever was technically possible to it. Now it's their computer, their OS and you should be happy they allow you to use their wonderful services.

dessant 5y ago

As someone heavily invested in Firefox as a user and an extension developer, I think Mozilla deserves what they get. Their product managers have been taking the same anti-user route as a megacorp with a leading product, except Firefox has been bleeding users for years, and they have been alienating long-time users and developers on several fronts. Take the state of Firefox extensions. Firefox is the only browser where you can't install an extension until you disclose the source code to Mozilla. Both Google and Apple allows users to install an extension from a local source in the release version of Chrome and Safari, without uploading the source code to their servers. It's not just a privacy issue either. Mozilla employees can and will veto your unlisted extension that you were forced to upload for signing, so that it can be installed in your browser, and you wake up with your private and unlisted extensions having been remotely blocked by Mozilla. It is reckless and arrogant to have this attitude, especially when you're a small player in such a competitive market. https://www.jeremiahlee.com/posts/page-translator-is-dead/ https://www.jeremiahlee.com/posts/page-translator-is-dead/

libeclipse 5y ago
That's a myopic view to take, this hurts users way more than it hurts Mozilla
- dessant 5y ago
  Of course, in the end users are losing the most, and Microsoft is definitely abusing their position. But we can no longer pretend that Firefox has any chance to survive with the current management, and we should definitely call them out on cultivating the same anti-user stance that they have been fighting against.
  - libeclipse 5y ago
    This is completely unrelated to the topic of the post
    - dessant 5y ago

vadfa 5y ago

I'm going to side with Microsoft here. I don't want apps to be able to change file/protocol associations on their own. If I want to set a different application as a default browser, I will go to the settings panel and change it myself.

rubyist5eva 5y ago
They are removing the option to be able to even set the protocol association. This has nothing to do with protecting users and everything to do with protecting their telemetry gathering. When I set a default browser, if the OS needs to open a web page I want to it to open in that browser. If Apple can do this properly, so can Microsoft. Tired of the excuses and corporate double speak bullshit.
- pedro2 5y ago
  Manners! It's untamed corporation behaviour, not bullshit. Not on this level. Also, learn from Microsoft astroturfing manual, you should not use harsh sentences nor expletives to convey an idea. Try to frame it as a subtle doubt, in a polite way. Unless you are a reverse astroturfer, in that case, you're doing well.
  - rubyist5eva 5y ago
    > Manners! No, they've been doing this crap for decades. They don't deserve any respect or courtesy. It needs to be called out for what it is when they just brazenly think they can do whatever the hell they want because they somehow own the computer because it has their software on it.

noisy_boy 5y ago

I don't see a problem. Those who don't like Edge would be more pissed that their configured/chosen browser is being bypassed again and anything that comes out of (turning off the search on toolbar/ignoring it/taking it as the last straw and thinking of alternative OSs) is good for Firefox/Linux etc. Those who don't care about the browser, don't care anyway. And the three people who use Edge would be happier.

nojs 5y ago

Instead of preventing competitor products working on your platform, why not spend the energy learning why people avoid Edge in the first place? Forcing unwilling users into a bad product never ends well.

bodge5000 5y ago

A bit off topic, but... > but it makes Edge look bad, which is a shame because it’s not a terrible browser at all. Maybe its not a terrible browser, but first impressions count for a lot. To even use the browser for the first time you need to sit through their sales pitch (for anyone who has installed windows recently, you'll understand that all the popups and so on take much longer than you'd expect). They practically beg you not to use another browser. All this I'd say fine to. They have mistakes of the past to fix, and want people to give them a chance. Maybe not ideal, but the first time I saw this, I thought fair enough, I'll give them a chance. As soon as you do that and cave to them, the first thing they ask for is all your data, with a massive obstrusive banner that's of course intentionally difficult to say no to. Not even Chrome is so brazen as that. You give them an inch and they take a yard

robertlagrant 5y ago

I love "improper". What finishing school did you even go to, Firefox?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

leshenka 5y ago

> end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected Oh I love wording of this. It's almost like Windows 10 is a piece of art and altering it to serve end user is somehow wrong. It's almost like they think it's up to them to decide how customers can use their OS. F these weasels

coliveira 5y ago

MS never changes. They made some moves to lure developers, but their goal is and always has been to embrace, extend and extinguish.

wintermute2dot0 5y ago

This has got to be the most Orwellian thing I've read today, and Microsoft saying this unironically is just bizarre: “Windows openly enables applications and services on its platform, including various web browsers,” says a Microsoft spokesperson. “At the same time, Windows also offers certain end-to-end customer experiences in both Windows 10, and Windows 11, the search experience from the taskbar is one such example of an end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected. When we become aware of improper redirection, we issue a fix.”

teawrecks 5y ago
Windows isn't targeting you, they're targeting your parents/grandparents who will unintentionally put their system in a non-standard state that makes it difficult for msft or anyone else to support them. They want to lock the system down to control the experience as much as possible. Unfortunately, they believe that this one size fits all.
grishka 5y ago
We want our users to have choice, except in some cases in which we do our best to deny it to them.
KoftaBob 5y ago
Reminds me of the famous "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants, so long as it is black!" from Henry Ford.
psyc 5y ago
This sounds like the ol' "IE is an inextricable OS component" routine.
aspaceman 5y ago
Probably mean to ask this way, but why does this read like something written by a moron? Like it has this unprofessional condescending air to it.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago

ubermonkey 5y ago

Holy shit that's gross. I haven't used Windows as my main OS in a really long time -- 20 years? -- and crap like this is one reason why. I thought that, with Ballmer gone, they'd stop doing deeply wrong stuff like this, but here we are.

nivenkos 5y ago
They've always been a fraudulent company. They lied when they licensed QDOS to use as the foundation of Windows, hiding the fact that they were working with IBM. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS#Creation_of_PC_DOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS#Creation_of_PC_DOS They cheated the license with Spyglass Mosaic for Internet Explorer - making it based on software purchases and then bundling it for free with Windows so they didn't have to pay any royalties. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Internet_Explorer_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Internet_Exp... Then there's the Halloween documents, and the attempts at forcing ActiveX (and IE) on the early Web, etc. - the whole company is rotten.
- pedro2 5y ago
  Don't worry, the market forces will force Microsoft into oblivion. They'll obliterate all competitors and become so profitable they'll force Oracle to take them out. Tada! Market forces at work once again!
- ubermonkey 5y ago
  That kind of behavior stems from leadership, though, and the MSFT we've seen post-Ballmer has been dramatically more aware of its position in a diverse marketplace (vs. attempting to own the entire market). This kind of thing is especially apparent in interoperability -- Office on the Mac is currently as good as it's ever been; I never need to switch to Windows to get something done. Sharepoint (which is awful) now works properly on non-Windows platforms. There are excellent iOS builds of the Office tools. None of that was conceivable under Ballmer. So yes, I'm old enough to have lived through all the things you mention, but I have also noticed a distinct change in MSFT's behavior in the last 7 years. I see this kind of browser tomfoolery as a return to the bad old days, for sure.

rubyist5eva 5y ago

Even macOS isn’t egregious enough to just disrespect the user this brazenly. What a joke. Embrace freedom. Use Linux.

albertopv 5y ago

Really a dumb PR move, people willing to change default browser will do anyway and will also be pissed off. Almost everyone I know use Chrome, a few Firefox, no one use Edge.

comeonseriously 5y ago

It was a good run MS. You had everyone fooled by supporting Linux on Windows, OSS, etc.

cblconfederate 5y ago

I think microsoft is in the right here. They own that search box, just like how google owns firefox + ios + android + chrome + safari. Giving the windows box to google would be reducing competition overall, which is sorely needed in the search space. Superficially it appears to reduce user choice, but we know that on the whole that's not true.

neatze 5y ago
> but we know that on the whole that's not true. What do you mean exactly and who are "we" ?
lp0_on_fire 5y ago
huh? Firefox is created and "owned" by the Mozilla foundation. iOS and Safari are Apple...

andyp-kw 5y ago

I was going to get angry, then I remembered that I've been a Linux user for the last year, and this won't effect me.

canadaduane 5y ago
Kudos!

kunagi7 5y ago

A few months ago both Firefox and Brave added this workaround. Being able to modify the default app for the "microsoft-edge:" handler is something that was available since 2017 and pretty much EdgeDeflector was the main user. Most people back then said that Microsoft would never patch this thing but here we are. Having a <0.1% of users bypassing your custom handler isn't relevant at all. But having 5~6% of them is not. If your competitor (Microsoft) plays dirty and you play even dirtier (Brave, Firefox) at their own field, they will notice it, patch it and use it against you. Since antitrust doesn't seem to work in the US... Maybe Microsoft will get another anti-trust fine from the EU and they'll forced to disable this handler at least inside the EU market.

sounds 5y ago
What Microsoft is losing is mindshare with their customers. It'll be a piece of cake, once their customers are angry enough, for a new tool to become popular that circumvents whatever "patch" Microsoft puts out. The emperor has no clothes.

tester34 5y ago

HN seems to overreact on this hard If user clicks on e.g "Open in Edge" button and FF intercepts URL with Microsoft's "microsoft-edge protocol" and opens FF, then what's so shocking about the fact that MS is not happy about this? inb4: I'm saying it as a FF user.

Ajedi32 5y ago
It wouldn't be a problem if Microsoft only used that protocol handler for an "Open in Edge" button. The problem is they use it pretty much everywhere. Search the web from the start menu? That's a Microsoft Edge link. Click a link in the settings app? It's a Microsoft Edge link. They're effectively just using the handler as a way to bypass the user's choice of default browser, which is why Firefox had to implement this work-around in the first place.
postalrat 5y ago
Is there a "Open in Firefox" button near the "Open in Edge" button?
burkaman 5y ago
The button doesn't say "Open in Edge", it says "See web results". Do you think an average user would expect that to open in their default web browser?
- tester756 5y ago
  I believe that "See web results" shouldn't use Edge Protocol, instead of Firefox intercepting Edge Protocol. What about stuff that doesn't really work in FF or has terrible performance and Windows/MS wanted to open it in Edge?
  - burkaman 5y ago
    Yes, but it does use Edge Protocol. That's why some HN users are upset. I don't think it's an overreaction, and you seem to agree that it's wrong. Responding to your edit: If Microsoft creates a new type of page that works well in Edge but not other browsers, they can make a new protocol for it and allow other browser to support the protocol if they want to. In fact that's exactly what happened here: Microsoft added a new protocol, Firefox said "we support this new protocol with full performance and functionality, so we should be able to open it".

pre 5y ago

Really what I want is for the task-bar to not send everything to a search-engine anyway. I don't want web-results in a task-bar-search at all. I'm trying to launch a program, not tell Microsoft-search the names of every program I launch.

deburo 5y ago
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Search Set to 0 the following keys (add them if needed) - BingSearchEnabled (DWORD) - CortanaConsent (DWORD) I've been running w/ those since Windows 1903, and that's why I don't care about all those Edge shenanigans (except the default browser switcher). All those sub-par web experiences in the Windows Shell are tiresome. Taskbar search breaking because of internet issues tops it all off nicely.
- pre 5y ago
  Thanks. Will try and have a look next time I'm forced to boot into windows. Used to be that Windows users would complain that Linux made them edit arcane config files, I guess now it's Linux users that complain about Windows needing you to edit arcane registry settings.
- dbmnt 5y ago
  These registry keys are completely ignored on the latest version of Windows 11. MS documented the change here, very buried: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications#primaryR3 https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica... Look under "Feature deprecations and removals" > "Search Results from the Internet" and you see: "Windows 11 does not support disabling the return of internet Search results via Registry Key." They imply there that you can still use Group Policy to make this change, but... that doesn't work either in the latest builds.
  - pre 5y ago
    Oh. :(
  - deburo 5y ago

mnadkvlb 5y ago

Can someone recommend a linux distro where i can run steam and get most games. I know some games dont run on linux at all. I am using a last gen threadeipper and 1080ti. at this point i am ready to jump the MS ship completely.

prohobo 5y ago
Pop!_OS (especially for NVIDIA) or Ubuntu 21.10, imo. Install Steam and enable Proton. Most of your games should run the same as on Windows, or better, and it's rapidly improving.
- mnadkvlb 5y ago
  Thanks a lot, will give it a shot. Had been using fedora in past, but gaming was crap on it.
godshatter 5y ago
I use Ubuntu, and most of my games work great. Check protondb.com to see if your critical games work well or not in linux through steam. Some may require special switches to be add in the game setup in Steam to get them to run well. There is also a version of proton (which is Steams's additions to Wine which is what lets you make Windows API calls) called glorious eggroll that implements some fixes that haven't yet made it to proton. Make sure you install the proprietary nvidia drivers, and you should be all set. It's truly a new world for gaming in linux now. I've been on linux since the early 2000s and had basically given up on getting almost anything to run through wine. Now almost everything in my steam catalog runs fine. Just a heads-up that it's not all roses, though. There may be games that run fine for some people but don't on your setup, and anything with anti-cheat is basically not going to run yet, though Valve is working hard on that problem. You may find issues with alt-tabbing from fullscreen games, you might find that some games rely on an api that isn't working in proton or wine yet. For example, I play Phasmophobia solo, and that works great for the most part but they rely on Cortana for voice recognition, and that isn't implemented yet. I can make noise and ghosts will hear me, but they won't understand what I'm saying. In my opinion any issues you run into will be small fish in comparison to issues thrust upon you by Microsoft being Microsoft, but they will seem huge at first because you're probably used to trying to solve problems the "microsoft way". Once you get past a few you'll be doing great.

908087 5y ago

I know history tends to repeat itself, but I honestly didn't expect this particular bit of history to repeat itself with basically the same players again so soon.

prohobo 5y ago

I left the Windows ecosystem at the right time it seems... Something about Windows 11 made me not want to upgrade and just take my chances with Linux. I feel like Microsoft is slowly consolidating against consumers in more and more egregious ways, and it's not worth it anymore (especially because of Proton, lol).

indymike 5y ago

I'm dropping support for employees at my two companies even using Windows on our network. No more of this. This whole industry is 20 years behind thanks to a couple of decades of these kind of shenanigans. Micorsoft wishes to embrace and extend the entire HTTP and HTTPS protocols and by doing so, has blown up their last shred of trust.

vinaypai 5y ago

It's pretty pathetic that the only way Microsoft can get people to use their browser is to force it on them against their will. It's an admission that it's literally overpriced at "free".

coldacid 5y ago

Yet another reason to skip Windows 11. At this point I wish we could roll back to Windows 2000.

theknocker 5y ago

I am about to stop using Windows in real life.

Andrex 5y ago

This week I finally made the decision to ditch Windows 10 and move to Elementary OS on my desktop computer (my laptop is a Pixelbook). I was attempting to edit videos. I plug in an external hard drive with my footage, and... nothing. Well, not nothing. It's there in Devices & Printers. It's able to be ejected safely. Troubleshooter has no problems. But nothing in Explorer or any other obvious place you'd think. Panicking, I plugged the same drive into Chrome OS. Literally three seconds later I was browsing my footage. That's the point I got up from my desk and said, "I'm done." I'm so over Windows. They spend how much time and effort shoving a Linux environment into things when they apparently can't even support widely-used filesystems. The fact my external drive is mountable by both Chrome OS (where the code for mounting is open source) and macOS (a closed-source OS used by a minority of the populace) but not Windows is an utter joke. I shouldn't have to spend all this time trying to access my files in 2021. This is something that should Just Work. This was just the straw that broke the camel's back. I've had several minor and major annoyances with Microsoft's treatment of Windows ever since Windows 8, and none of them have gotten better. - Constantly degrading your choice of default browser, as in the OP. - WTF is "3D Objects" and why does it always bubble up from the pits of hell even when I delete it? Microsoft is very opinionated about the User folder in general, while I think they should be as hands-off as possible. Stop adding folders I didn't ask for and stop resurrecting them after they're deleted. Why is this so hard? - Ditto the last point for OneDrive. - Windows 11-specific, but adding ads to the taskbar? In a paid OS that the OEMs are already footing the bill for and bundling whatever extra crapware they want? https://betanews.com/2021/09/04/microsoft-crowbars-ads-into-windows-11-and-breaks-the-start-menu-and-taskbar/ https://betanews.com/2021/09/04/microsoft-crowbars-ads-into-... - Obscuring local account creation to a ridiculous degree in Windows 10 (you need to literally disable Wi-Fi or unplug Ethernet to even see the option) has gotten even WORSE in Windows 11. Now you can't even set up a local account at all unless you shell out extra for Windows 11 Pro! They've learned nothing from the Xbox One always-online debacle, and honestly looking back, this should have been the dealbreaker. But I thought, "hey, I don't create accounts that often, this is something I can live with." No longer. - The amount of analytics and data-gathering in Windows is the worst it's ever been, and worse than any comparable OS. "You can turn it off though." Well, maybe. Until Windows Update decides it knows better and turns it back on. - This is purely aesthetic, but Windows 8 and 10 looked utterly horrible if you did anything more than look at the desktop and open the Start Menu. Clashing styles and UX edicts from decades of past releases, in very visible places. It gives the impression Microsoft just doesn't give a shit. And don't tell me "it's too hard to update everything in time for release." It's not everything, and Microsoft is a big boy with lots of money and developers. They decided they just don't care. - When trying to migrate my files in preparation for moving to Elementary, I plugged in an SD Card and got BSOD'd immediately. Absolutely wonderful quality control. People complain Linux is buggy and you have to jump through hoops to do what you want? Windows is now that x100. It's not getting better or even staying the same. Microsoft is actively making Windows worse for their own ends. Thankfully I have the choice and ability to install an alternative, but my heart goes out to those with no choice. It's Orwellian. [this is a slightly updated version of a comment I posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881]

0xTJ 5y ago

Microsoft is slowly pushing me back to Linux. VS Code and WSL had me fairly content for a while, but as time goes on, I'm thinking more and more about how little of what I do actually needs Windows at this point. I miss my days using Arch, and it's more likely that I'll switch back to that than that I move to Windows 11.

Causality1 5y ago

Gods I miss the days when I got so excited for a Windows release. Now it's nothing but a constant stream of "fuck you-s" from Microsoft. I'd give anything to see a Windows install screen and smile again.

rackjack 5y ago

Again? > Ah, the eternal cycle of: Microsoft does something bad, then people move to Linux, then they get dragged by Linux's rough new user experience, then they leave Linux, then things are fine for a while, then people mock Linux users for being paranoid, then Microsoft does something bad... here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201872 At this point we can skip the "mock" step.

flerovium 5y ago

"Browser wars" reminder: Much less egregious behavior was deemed illegal circa 2000s.[1][2] The EU went so far as to require that the default choice be set randomly based on current browser market share. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor.... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp._v._Commission

dancemethis 5y ago

Microsoft is improper.

smilekzs 5y ago

They need to get sued and lose simply by repeating what they did with IE4.0. Alongside Apple with the Apple Tax.

dimgl 5y ago

I installed Windows 11 and my god... what a goddamn mistake. I had to reformat and go back to Windows 10. They screwed it up yet again. So much UI/UX regression. It's hard to believe they haven't learned their lesson after so many years, honestly.

unnouinceput 5y ago

Time to go full nuclear on Microsoft and replace Edge entirely with a stub that will open what you want (Firefox in my case). Basically create a rootkit just for this shitshow

Tozen 5y ago

Surprise, surprise. Microsoft being the big bully on the block, and being slick about allowing users to freely choose what browser they want to use. If a person doesn't use Edge by default, then there might be trouble and for any workarounds. Yeah, choose Firefox or Brave, but then Windows will start acting "funny" about it or make life difficult.

Ciantic 5y ago

I have been loyal, if grumpy, Windows user for all my life. But they really did broke something in me with the Windows 11, and these -- moves. They really are intent on burning bridges now! I don't want my operating system to dictating behavior of taskbar, default browsers, etc. I'm planning switch to Linux, when I can figure which one. It will be laborious, as I have years of workflow helpers built in AutoHotkey, custom DLL's and some Win32 applications. I never liked the Windows' command prompt / Powershell. All my servers have been Linux boxes so I've known bash way better, so that part will be really easy, in fact joyous to get rid of command propmpt / powershell.

dimgl 5y ago
Good luck. I had massive problems switching to Linux. Most of the people on Hacker News are saying it's me. Yet Windows works just fine. So yeah idk.
- Ciantic 5y ago
  What kind of problems? Technical problems, to get it running at all? Or some taste related things. I'm more worried I don't like the font rendering because I'm so used to ClearType, even though I can run Windows 2x mode as I have dual 4k screens. I'm only slightly worried about technical problems, because I've periodically booted up to Linux from USB sticks. It's just small things are difficult, like getting 4K video to work smoothly etc.
  - nick__m 5y ago
    Installing Arch is a great learning experience! That said, if you do not have the time to read the excellent Arch install documentation you could give Manjaro a try.
djsbs 5y ago
Id recommend Debian. After many years (2005-2011) of searching, I like it best. It is the most likely to just work. If you’re very adventurous and have a lot of free time to explore, install Arch. Its documentation is excellent.

ww520 5y ago

What was Microsoft's settlement with DOJ regarding the anti-trust suit? What browser unbundling one of the key items back then?

Angostura 5y ago

Microsoft should use a different App if they want to provide this soft of end-to-end experience. A specialised simple html rendered.

implfuture 5y ago

> the search experience from the taskbar is one such example of an end-to-end experience that is not designed to be redirected The bing searches that appear in my taskbar search have never been useful and just pollute the local results I’m looking for. I’ve tried disabling them with regedit tricks to no avail.

deburo 5y ago
How so? I'm running Windows Pro 21H1, and the registry key works. Or perhaps it's a GPO?

calibas 5y ago

United States v. Microsoft Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

stevehawk 5y ago

if SteamOS is worth half a damn then I will be done with Windows forever.

shmerl 5y ago

Microsoft is improper. Should be blocked by anti-trust.

AniseAbyss 5y ago

I actually like win11 but this is such a bullshit move. And fuck the corporate speak. Everyone knows why you're doing it: to boost Edge adoption. Who do you think you're fooling here? Self delusion?

dang 5y ago

Recent major threads on this: Microsoft to Block Windows 11 Browser Workarounds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29201027 - Nov 2021 (105 comments) You can no longer bypass microsoft-edge:// links using apps like EdgeDeflector - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29191244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29191244 - Nov 2021 (171 comments) This is a lot more obvious once we change the URL from the submitted one (https://www.howtogeek.com/768727/microsoft-calls-firefoxs-browser-workaround-improper-will-block-it/ https://www.howtogeek.com/768727/microsoft-calls-firefoxs-br...) to the article it's copying.

Bud 5y ago

Even the mere existence of this bullshit URL type "microsoft-edge://" is heinous and should be illegal. Or, if we can't make it illegal, can't we have some sort of URL-protection vigilante squad?

XorNot 5y ago

Shouldn't Microsoft be getting done on anti-trust for this? This...seems overtly like what they were originally sued for back in the early 2000s.

Nightshaderr 5y ago

Instructions unclear. Install Debian 11 and be done with Microsoft?