117 ms·

Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF

844 points by wrycoder 6y ago

ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago
FSF always looked scary to me... this is a board that unify and welcome free softwares from different kind of licenses... FSF were founded by RMS which GNU is part of it and GNU is also founded by RMS. In the hope you understand :)
wrycoder 6y ago
RMS: "I'm not planning to resign a second time!"
hYKdTfpa 6y ago
The attacks on him were dubious at best.
- deleted 6y ago
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- bigtones 6y ago
  Are they.... here is a direct quote from him on a pro-pedophilia political party in 2006 that many that people took offence with: “I am sceptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren’t voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing.” https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-richard-stallman-has-some-moronic-thoughts-about-pedophilia/amp/ https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-rich...
  - hn8788 6y ago
    When taken out of context it looks bad, but when it's part of a broader discussion about morality and law not always matching up, it makes sense. Age of consent laws vary around the world, and it doesn't make sense why someone could legally have consensual sex with someone in one country, but if they had sex in a place with different age of consent laws, they'd be branded a pedophile.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      It wasn't part of a broader discussion.[1] And he wasn't talking about adolescents.[2] [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20... [2] https://stallman.org/notes/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April_2019_(Plea_deal_for_Epstein) https://stallman.org/notes/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April_2019_(...
    - phpnode 6y ago
      This is an example where the quote is actually worse with the broader context.
  - bpodgursky 6y ago
    This is not something I would say, or something I would ever recommend someone say, but it is 100% the type of open questioning an autism-spectrum person would ask when they don't understand the emotional weight or implications behind asking such a question.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    Was he being an actual child-predator, was he sharing child porn? Suppose some guy (Stallman or not) argues that the age of consent should be lowered to 14. Now you are in your right to oppose to that proposal or even be disgusted by it. What you dont have the right to is to silence and ostracize the guy or even suggest that opinion must have any type of consequence , be it legal or moral.
    - ramraj07 6y ago
      I have the right to attempt to silence or ostracise anyone for anything. Whether or not it’s successful depends on the situation and climate of the world at that time. He has the right to say whatever he wants to say as well. He wasn’t jailed for it just fired for it. Ask him to suck it up and then everyone here can also do the same thing instead of crying a river. Also, please try to show a single example of a person who defended pedophilia and ended up not being one? Discussing age of consent with respect to reducing it below 18 sounds like tacit support of the same. Many countries have lower ages, sure, but its not clear to me that this is because they were morally thought through decisions, mere figments of history that people cling to in the name of culture (also many of the decision makers seem happy to have the freedom to have sex with 14 year olds as well I suppose).
      - JarlUlvi 6y ago
        You don't need a high IQ to look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_age_of_consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_age_of_co... and understand there are huge definitional problems of defining pedophilia. > Also, please try to show a single example of a person who defended pedophilia and ended up not being one? You've managed to stuff many logical fallacies into a fairly short statement. Bravo!
      - gruez 6y ago
        > I have the right to attempt to silence or ostracise anyone for anything. Whether or not it’s successful depends on the situation and climate of the world at that time. Well, not really. If you try to ostracize someone for being black you'll quickly face legal and/or social sanctions. >Also, please try to show a single example of a person who defended pedophilia and ended up not being one? Does expressing skepticism of the scientific basis behind anti-pedophilia laws constitute "defending" pedophilia? Furthermore, if the argument is valid, who cares who's mouth it's coming from? This looks like a lazy attempt to dismiss someone's argument.
  - konjin 6y ago
    Odd that none of the teens Epstein slept with would be illegal to sleep with in Germany. Pedophilia is starting to mean 'sex I find icky' in the US.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - buisi 6y ago
      German Law is a bit more complicated than people give it credit for. While the police might not proactively go after cases involving some older minors, they will if the person files a complaint. If a situation involves "exploitation" under the law, as most of Epstein's crimes would be considered to, then it is also automatically illegal.
      - konjin 6y ago
        Yes, rape is a bad thing that gets reported in other countries too.
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Sounds like he is trying to follow the science. Aren’t we all about that nowadays? His statement is perfectly reasonable. Also, it’s extremely dishonest of you, and frankly a little contemptible, to keep smearing a man by taking this out of context and failing to also mention where he learned more about the issue and changed his views. This serves no other purpose than character assassination.
  - r3856283 6y ago
    But after someone read it they spoke to him about it and he realized he was wrong and published a correction right along side it and that was many years ago. You should have mentioned that. If he hadn't said it publicly, and only said it in private to people, that wouldn't have happened. Is that better? I don't think so. Free speech creates counter speech and changes people's minds.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      He didn't retract anything until just before he resigned as far as I know.[1] The retraction wasn't right along side his earlier comments.[2][3] 6 years isn't many at his age. And he fixed a link without changing anything else just 1 year before. Defend him if you want. But let's be accurate. [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... [2] https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20... [3] https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2013_(Pedophilia) https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2...
      - CRConrad 6y ago
        Someone far above posted an archive.org link from, was it 2006?, that allegedly showed him already having changed his mind on something by then. AFAICR from the discussion it was either exactly what you're talking about or something very similar. (Sorry, you're on your own looking for it -- it was on the first page at the time I saw it.)
  - wsc981 6y ago
    I think this view of Stallman was quite widespread in the 70s, or at the very least much more widespread than it is today. I read in The Netherlands in the 70s child porn was quite readily available. See also “Chick arrest”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_the_Netherlands https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_th... In this period there were even politicians openly advocating for allowing sex with children on television: https://youtu.be/nSMpAhQRDB8 https://youtu.be/nSMpAhQRDB8 (Dutch spoken) It seems to me often the people advocating for allowing sex with children would be left-oriented. https://timeline.com/children-of-god-5245a45f6a2a https://timeline.com/children-of-god-5245a45f6a2a However I believe most decent human beings these days realize sex with children can be very harmful to children. Perhaps this is a background Stallman grew up in.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      > It seems to me often the people advocating for allowing sex with children would be left-oriented. And teenagers. My kid's progressive K-12 private school had a scandal recently when more than a dozen victims came forth with allegations that they had been sexually abused by male teachers in the 1970s. Much of the testimony recounts that sexual relationships between male teachers and high school students were an "open secret" around the school, teachers would invite students to parties at their houses, etc. It was a very liberal school back then too--the fact that it did not generate a scandal at the time despite being an "open secret" tells you about how the boundaries were being pushed in various directions back then. Luckily that turned out to be an ideological dead end.
- dang 6y ago
  Unrelated to the topic, but could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=community%20identity%20by:dang&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=community%20identity%20by:dang...
  - fsflover 6y ago
    Technically, such guideline prohibits anonymous speech, because how you speak can reveal your identity after a certain threshold...
    - dang 6y ago
      These are all questions of degree and how to balance trade-offs, so while you've raised one legitimate concern (among the many), I don't think an absolute statement like "prohibits anonymous speech" is accurate.
prepend 6y ago
Sometimes I worry that we truly are devolving and things are getting worse. I think “eventually people will wise up and focus on what’s important” but then even crazier stuff keeps happening. This is a positive sign that maybe we can figure out how to eventually get it right and it won’t just be a circular firing squad getting smaller and smaller over time.
- Traster 6y ago
  I just want to chime in to say, either defend Stallman or don’t. Don’t do this silly moral panic “I worry about society” thing. Address the issues, don’t make gross generalisations.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    Agree. Now save that reply for the next time the democrats/republicans/sjw/faang employees/the media say the world is going to be over every time a group of people do something kinda shitty.
  - konjin 6y ago
    When I can call you sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, sexist and a nazi before breakfast addressing the issues misses the point of why the issues are being raised. Pretending that these people have any morals past gathering power is as stupid as pretending that the mob burning down your restaurant is your fault for not installing enough sprinklers to put out napalm.
  - strictnein 6y ago
    "Only discuss the topic I wish you to discuss" is definitely an interesting take.
    - klyrs 6y ago
      Avoiding generic tangents isn't just an interesting take, it's actualy a site guideline. > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.
williesleg 6y ago
Well he stinks. I met him. He does stink.
deleted 6y ago
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Mediterraneo10 6y ago
I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people – society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and that’s OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally offensive.
- compiler-guy 6y ago
  It wasn’t just a few statements. It is a constellation of issues that make him very hard to interact with. A few final statements did bring him down, but he had been chipping at the foundation for years.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Again, maybe it was "hard to interact with him" only if one was unwilling to accept his difference?
    - JohnHaugeland 6y ago
      Please stop. He argued that pedophilia was okay.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - dempseye 6y ago
        Where did he say that?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        mjg59 6y ago
        This is probably a reference to https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html: "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing."
varispeed 6y ago
I wish FSF also started caring about the developers. Free software was and is a great idea, but unintended consequence is that it also facilitates exploitation of software developers by big corporations who from the perspective of FSF are just users as regular people. This means they make billions off of a software who someone built in their rented flat, living a modest life, sometimes struggling with bills, meanwhile the execs spend their time choosing a new jet and on which Caribbean island this time will be a general meeting of the board. FSF should start lobbying for royalty system for developers, so that big corporations using free software should have to pay % of revenue to all contributors of open source software they are using. Individuals and small companies would be exempt.
- winter_blue 6y ago
  Exactly this. I love and support open source[1], but I don’t support all software being “free of cost”. [1] Not the OSI definition of it.
  - winter_blue 6y ago
    Do people actually support all software being free? Note that I said above: > but I don’t support all software being “free of cost” Does anyone really support all software being free? That means developers would have to live like saints / monks, with donations to support themselves (and forgo the the 250k income that's become the standard/median in Silicon Valley today...).
    - jrochkind1 6y ago
      Well, there are other ways to get income while producing software than selling the software. You can be a university professor. You can be funded by grants. You can have a job working for a non-software company that lets you produce free software for that company's use that you can also give away, while they keep paying your salary. Things like that were how open source software has been historically produced mostly, right? Heck, there could be a Universal Basic Income, and someone could choose to write the software they want while getting it. Yeah, none of these would be sufficient to produce all the software that is "needed" or wanted. So, as long as there are people willing to pay for software they can't get for free, all software won't be free. I support the idea of all software being free, including social changes that would be necessary for that to be realistic, such as serious alterations to capitalism.
creamytaco 6y ago
Stallman is a bastion of software freedom in a world turning progressively dark. The fact that he never ever compromised his ideals and principles, never sold out and has been repeatedly proven prescient and absolutely on the money on countless issues, makes him someone that we should strive to protect. There are many invididuals in the Free Software world that backstabbed RMS and tried to destroy him with malicious character attacks. Here is one example: https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and... Has Andy Wingo apologized?
- tptacek 6y ago
  For what would this person be apologizing? I'm not sure I understand your logic. It seems to me that we should be wary of our impulse to be protective of people whose principles we support. We often don't want to hear about the problematic things those people do.
- corndoge 6y ago
  No need to apologize for expressing their opinion, neither on RMS's part nor on the part of his detractors. What purpose is served? Both expressed their (presumably) legitimately held opinions, that is their right.
- zeruch 6y ago
  Apologize for what? What in his statement should be apologize for? It's an op-ed that the author himself qualifies with a fairly clear sense of wat exists "on the ground" and his opinion about it, both positive and negative. Frankly, Stallman has been a boat-anchor to his own cause more than much else for a while, and he is IMHO a vile little imp; his poor hygiene, both physical and emotional, and his chronic id-salving, went through their mileage before the current millennium started, let alone a few decades in.
  - adolph 6y ago
    >his poor hygiene The social hygiene movement represented a rationalized, professionalized version of the earlier social purity movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_hygiene_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_hygiene_movement
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
It's unfortunate and frustrating that enough of a name brand around you, and you become basically immune to repercussions for your actions. This isn't a good day for the FOSS community.
deleted 6y ago
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dralley 6y ago
IMO, Stallman is a good philosophical leader, but a terrible organizational leader. "On the board" is a decent compromise. But he has been a huge contributor to GNU's decent into irrelevance in recent years. As an organization, they're perpetually stuck in the 1990s.
- astrange 6y ago
  FSFLA is actually pretty productive as I understand it. FSF US seems to spend all their time starting irrelevant political campaigns with terrible pun-based slogans.
  - blagie 6y ago
    FSF US is pretty much a one-man show, and does pretty well for a one-man show for impact. It's basically RMS and a few people to support him, as far as I can tell. A one-man show with the one man missing made no sense to me.
- m463 6y ago
  Honestly, I think the GNU software is a little like "giving a man a fish" Meanwhile, the GPL License is more "teaching a man to fish", and I think the software written and protected by this license has grown, both in importance and coverage. Lots of people are "getting it" as we clearly see how "our" phones and computers are really not living up to their promise.
- dehrmann 6y ago
  > he has been a huge contributor to GNU's decent into irrelevance in recent years. As an organization, they're perpetually stuck in the 1990s. I agree, but this reason, alone, is enough for him to be off the board. Maybe his time has passed, maybe free software has grown into something larger than he has vision for, maybe it grew in a way incompatible with his vision.
  - klodolph 6y ago
    GNU, which develops software, should have separate leadership from the FSF, which does advocacy. Stallman should have given up GNU long ago to someone better, but he’s much better at advocacy which is what the FSF does.
adabae 6y ago
<RMS dancing with GNU>
armchairhacker 6y ago
Some context I got from https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of-the-clueless-nerd/ https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of...: Stallman was pressured to resign from the board and MIT because of some of these controversies: - Jeffrey Epstein coerced one of his victims to have sex with Marvin Minsky. In an online thread, Stallman argued that this might not be sexual assault if Minsky didn't realize she was coerced. - 10 years ago, Stallman claimed that 14 year olds are old enough to consent to sex and it's not pedophilia. He since retracted this claim - He is generally very weird and doesn't have etiquite. For example, he was invited to a fancy restaurant and then pranced around the tables because he wanted to dance Overall, Stallman is very unaware of societal expectations, so sometimes he says things ranging from non-PC to outright sexist, albeit unintentionally. EDIT: Fixed some inaccuracies
- snvzz 6y ago
  Here's another review[0] of the events. [0] https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ A character assassination campaign, and nothing more than that.
- r3856283 6y ago
  Not quite. Someone vandalized his name card adding the hot ladies part and took a picture. That was never him. And you turned the quote "pranced around the tables" to "pranced around on the tables." ... why?
  - r3856283 6y ago
    The parent was edited. Thanks.
- throwawaycdn12 6y ago
  Canada only raised their age of consent from 14 to 16 in 2008. I don't think Canada should be cancelled as a result of this.
  - preommr 6y ago
wmf 6y ago
For those who do not know RMS personally: "I worked for RMS longer than any other programmer. ... This was an own-goal for RMS. He has had plenty of opportunities to learn how to stfu when that’s necessary. ... I can confirm the unfortunate reality that RMS’s behavior was a concern [in the 1990s], and that [Marvin Minsky's] protection was itself part of the problem. He was never held to account; he was himself coddled in his own lower-grade misbehavior and mistreatment of women. He made the place uncomfortable for a lot of people, and especially women. ... RMS’s mere presence on the scene in this way has served to make it harder to deal with other cases of bad leaders’ bad behavior. It is time for the free software community to leave adolescence and move to adulthood, and this requires leaving childish tantrums, abusive language, and toxic environments behind." — Thomas Bushnell https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...
- r3856283 6y ago
  He didn't work with or for RMS longer than any other programmer, there are many who have longer. Gerald J. Sussman is a programmer and hired him at MIT and is still on the board of FSF and still working with him, that is over 40 years. And RMS has grown over the years. This is from over 20 years ago.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    "for" and "with" are different words.
    - r3856283 6y ago
      Sorry. Edited.
      - darig 6y ago
        Me and Galvin Belson have a combined net worth of a billion dollars. "for" and "with or for" are different words.
- 6y ago
userbinator 6y ago
The canary has been resuscitated... while I don't agree with everything he says, I think we do need an extremist or two to keep the fringes of opinion where they are.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  I am quite fine with RMS being a software freedom zealot. I don't agree with his extremist views but agree that there is value in that kind of fringe existing. This does not extend to some or many of his other expressed views and behaviors outside of the realm of software freedom.
deft 6y ago
holy fucking HYPE. I'm glad I emailed advocating for him. He actually got back to me because the pansies running FSF's emails had no good answers to any of my questions.
user3939382 6y ago
I think we can look to someone for their philosophy on software without them having to pass a wokeness purity test. I also respect and understand these issues are a quasi-religion to many and that they feel differently.
jdub 6y ago
Richard says he's not autistic. People who try to conflate his bad behaviour and autism are excusing his behaviour and unfairly generalising about autistic people. Richard is argumentative about his bad behaviour. He's not oblivious. Plenty of people have spoken to him about it. You'd think he might take a hint after being removed from his own organisation and all the surrounding commentary. He doesn't care. (Separately, "techrights" is run by an obsessive troll who harasses people in the FLOSS community.)
- blagie 6y ago
  No, I think claiming one can extrapolate from one particular autistic person to all autistic people is "unfairly generalising about autistic people." Autism is a broad spectrum (and far from unidimensional) which manifests in a broad diversity of ways. I'll generally excuse people who are trying to do the right thing. Richard is trying to do the right thing. If you don't, you'll do very badly in other cultures. By US standards, most cultures do things which are extremely abusive or neglectful (and vice-versa). I will also mention autism is a psychological term defined in DSM, not a self-identity term. Many people who are autistic don't believe they are, and vice-versa. It's not a personal choice.
  - jdub 6y ago
    He doesn't do the right thing. He becomes agitated and sometimes aggressive when anyone points out that they're uncomfortable with his behaviour. He is not interested in their perspective or comfort.
    - blagie 6y ago
      You're even more confused. Please reread: "I'll generally excuse people who are trying to do the right thing. Richard is trying to do the right thing." I understand within your cultural frame and value system, ethical behavior is defined with regards to other people's comfort. That's not true for Richard (not for the culture I was born in, for that matter; I don't much care if people around me feel comfortable, nor if they make me feel comfortable, although I do know how to code switch, and do so in professional settings so as to be successful in the US). Cross-cultural fluency involves being able to interact with people with different value systems. People in the Middle East, China, or Russia will have very different views of what the right thing is from yourself. I've almost never met a person who tried as hard to do what *they* (not you, not me) believed was right as Richard.
hda2 6y ago
Good. Congratulations to Richard and all the members of the FSF. Hopefully, he can help them fix the damage they did while he was gone.
ddingus 6y ago
I am here to say I am pleased to see RMS active in software issues again. I am a fan of his ideas related to software, and his gift to us has paid me and most of my peers off over and over. Tons of others have added to all that and here we are today. Personally, I will consider what he says about software, data, IP. The man is not often wrong. Has a lot to say, and he should be heard. There are other issues, and that is all quite difficult. Painful. I would say unnecessary, but I know better, save to say I do not see that in terms of bad intent. I do see a very different set of priorities. Not speaking to right or wrong here, just understanding and a desire to move open ideas further along, bolster them to endure. I sincerely hope everyone involved can help keep the focus where it counts. I do not plan on speaking to RMS as a person, nor giving his opinions weight outside of computing freedom. Given these times, an RMS, however painful, seems necessary. I just want the software, data, IP vision to endure, thrive and continue to deliver far more use value than any one contributor adds or user invests. He can really help to do that, and I think he should. OSS is a beautiful thing. I remember the first time I heard about GNU. Was profound. Took a while, and the likes of ESR and others who took the time to write and speak to people like me seeking to grok it all. Unlike physical goods and services, software can be a multiplier. The whole is greater than the parts. We can, and often easily do, get more than we may give. These ideas have empowered people all over the world. And they range from curious, driven people of little means dumpster diving to get going through to others who may want for nothing, all able to pick up the body of OSS code and open data and run with it. I feel deeply our actions, law, norms, expectations all set now will matter for a very long time. Getting all that more right than wrong is going to touch pretty much everyone and the potential impacts are profound. The possible futures vary widely, and not just degrees of good. It could all be not so good at all. Either way, this will all solidify. Does not have to be bad. I sure hope it isn't.
- CJefferson 6y ago
  Genuine question, is there anything useful he has said in the last 10 years he has said you can point to? He seems helplessly lost in the past, before the web, the explosion in javascript, etc. etc.
  - 6y ago
disposekinetics 6y ago
This is wonderful news. The hero has returned from the cancellation underworld.
yongjik 6y ago
We've all heard of the bus factor. Software project isn't a one-man show. There's no shortage of brilliant pioneers handing the baton to someone else or just sliding into obscurity for any number of reasons (e.g., got bored, found another passion, started a new project, gone off the rail, etc.). People no longer care about ESR's opinions, and that's OK. There's no reason FSF should need Stallman's continued presence - it's a software advocacy group, not a cult. I just find it frustrating that Stallman is considered beyond reproach, because he wrote something great decades ago, when his contribution in the past 20 years or so was hardly irreplaceable. Almost makes me wonder if he's being held as champion because he is an asshole who can't talk to women without creeping them out.
- mvzvm 6y ago
  Agreed 150%. I think a lot of older generation engineers like him because he is an asshole, and says things to women that they, in turn, feel. I think the sun is setting on the old, rude, archetype of engineer that cannot tolerate those different from them.
- cblconfederate 6y ago
  Not everyone is dispensable. I doubt there would be true free software without him. We need militant people to push towards that direction and there are not many
  - lasagnaphil 6y ago
    It’s not the problem about being dispensable, it’s just that regardless of the hard work Stallman did over the past decades, it’s becoming harder and harder to justify his presence when many other contributors are losing faith the org because of him (such as the 33 people who signed a joint statement on the GNU project: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr...). Stallman should at least have apologized over some of his awkward and potentially offending behavior over the years and do some self-retrospection (which is what Linus did, and as a result has much higher ground than Stallman, since even if he still might think the drama was overblown it still shows that he cares and emphasizes others to a certain degree.) But it seems that none of that is done even at a superficial level, so I expect FSF would significantly lose more trust among developers after Stallman’s revival. (Note that HN isn’t the only place to measure overall dev opinion...)
phreack 6y ago
This is a controversial opinion, but I believe someone who turns any space he's in into an unsafe place for women should not be leading the FSF. No matter who or their accomplishments. I never saw him being kicked out as unfounded, there were years and years of people being solicited sexually even after explicit non-consent by this man. He just seems to be unwilling to be professional towards women.
- fastball 6y ago
  Wait what? I haven't heard these allegations and a quick check of Wikipedia didn't surface anything either. Citation?
  - teddyh 6y ago
    Here’s a summary: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
- veltas 6y ago
  Can you explain how he is a threat to women's safety?
cheph 6y ago
I think professional conduct has been confused with other things. There is some basic standard of professional conduct that should be adopted in a professional environment. The lack of such a professional conduct is detrimental to the organization and all people who work for it. This professional conduct is not political correctness, it is not any specific political stance, it is basic things like don't make sexualized remarks, don't make sexual advances, don't ask for personal favours. If someone can't adhere to these basic standards it is not clear to me why everyone else in a professional environment should be disadvantaged on their part.
mvzvm 6y ago
Stallman is a disgusting pig. His behavior towards, and around, women cannot be excused by his technical contributions. He knows he is being sexist, and does not care.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  Women are strong and don't need your protection.
cblconfederate 6y ago
The first uncancellation?
denton-scratch 6y ago
Good.
mhh__ 6y ago
I don't really have much opinion here but I will say that there are some very tired arguments about usually nameless "woke" people going around this thread, which should really be substantiated by material evidence rather than singing to the choir.
jariel 6y ago
Here is the 10 page lists of Stallman's 'demands' for people hosting him [1]. This is considerably longer and more detailed than any heretofore described pop singer 'diva' or CEO. I can't think of anyone but heads of state with such requirements. Stop defending Stallman's 'neurodivergence' as some kind of excuse for his behaviour - this is straight up egocentric narcissism. [1] https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-community/c/zkyZpOXjgoQ/m/_8xyXSxv9zYJ?pli=1 https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-commun...
- roenxi 6y ago
  Stallman routinely goes to foreign countries and stays with people who he does not know. It is much more sensible just to write everything down and save time. I like cats if they are friendly, but they are not good for me; I am somewhat allergic to them. This allergy makes my face itch and my eyes water. So the bed, and the room I will usually be staying in, need to be clean of cat hair. However, it is no problem if there is a cat elsewhere in the house--I might even enjoy it if the cat is friendly. It'd be a bit weird to throw these out in the middle of a casual chat, but these details are extremely relevant to someone who owns a cat and is about to host Stallman. The easy way to get that information to them is to just send them the document. CEOs and pop singers stay at hotels, where there is a pretty well defined culture of what is to be expected. It is a much stabler environment than some random free-software style hippie's house. Heaven help the hotel that routinely has cat hair in the rooms, it will not get CEOs and pop stars staying there. And I expect Heads of State travel with chefs and butlers to sort these details out in person from a similarly detailed list. Or stay at a hotel.
deepstack 6y ago
return of jedi
africanboy 6y ago
Finally! When the Garrets of the World are defeated by facts, it's always a good day.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
Ok, he is more than a Saint of the Church of Emacs. See the signs: He delivered the Holy GNU OS, He was cancelled, and now He came back from being cancelled. Witness that He is the true messenger of GNU and the Messiah of the Free Software movement.
mustafa_pasi 6y ago
Mob justice is not OK just because women do it. If these women have anything substantial they should make formal reports/complaints, not anonymous vogue statements like, "he make me feel uncomfortable". Cannot believe that one even has to say this. Why are women always presumed to be innocent and men always presumed to be guilty? Also, frankly, there is a point at which, certain behaviour might make you feel uncomfortable, but that does not mean it is grounds for firing that person. At some point you have to just fend for yourself and tell the person to fuck off. We cannot just fire anyone who has some harmless quirk that you don't appreciate. I myself have to work with loads of people with nasty behaviours, but I don't presume to demand they all get fired just because of that. I mean, this has gotten ridiculous. We went from "he grabbed me by the pussy" and "he jerked off in front of me" to .... "he once hit on me and I had to reject him". The latter is perfectly normal behavior unless you propose we criminalize being a man.
- disgruntled101 6y ago
  What you are saying here would get you cancelled 100 times over if you were a public person, sadly.
  - cryptica 6y ago
    It goes to show that it's not regular people who create 'cancel culture'. It's the financial elite. They do it as means to push forward a financial agenda. If those who orchestrate the cancellations were who they portray themselves to be, the hypocrisy would be brain-splitting. The only reason their brain lobes are still attached together is because they know that they're being deceptive and it's part of an agenda. It's not possible for a rational, cohesive mind to believe that a person who dedicated his whole life to free software is a bad person just because he once said something without thinking through it.
    - noobermin 6y ago
      I think some cancellations are driven by powerful people but I'd say most are definitely organic.
pvaldes 6y ago
The autism debate is very interesting, but I can fall to mention that I'm glad to see him so happy again.
noobermin 6y ago
I feel like a lot of the cancel culture whining coming from people on the right is silly, things like Dr. Seuss and what have you, but there are instances that aren't helpful or require more justification, like rms here or Alexi McCammond. Furthermore, It's kind of funny seeing some folks defend rms who wouldn't defend him on anything else, particularly on some of his activist stances.
yc-kraln 6y ago
Big surprise, the white male suffers no real consequences. Just keep broadcasting the message, and asking why there are hardly any women or PoC in the industry.
- noobermin 6y ago
  It's kind of convenient to blame lack of cancellation for the lack of diversity in tech over say hiring preferences of tech companies. This attitude reminds me of that post about github's use of "master" a few days ago.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  No consequences for what? Stallman resigned 18 months ago. Did it make any difference to woman or "PoC" in the industry? How much positive discrimination, quota hiring and preferential treatment do you need before you realise maybe women don't want to be in this industry any more than they want to be in the bricklaying or ditch digging industry.
tlear 6y ago
Did he have to issue a self flagellating tear eyed apology and ask for maximum sentence in front of the People's Tribunal? Sounds like he did not, is the tide starting to turn? Will we stop shaming and cancelling people over a shirt they wear? (was my personal turning point)
jasonvorhe 6y ago
Wow, people actually think that being somewhat neuro-diverse is reason enough or even an excuse for RMS behavior? I haven't been a fan of the FSF in years (especially after meeting a few of their employees in Germany) but bringing RMS back is the definitive nail in the coffin of that organisation. I wouldn't be surprised if the few reasonable people still working for FSF leave and the org shuts down in a few years because they can't attract talent anymore and their donations dry up.
srer 6y ago
Wonderful news! I recall https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr... happening at the same time as the FSF incident, which fortunately didn't pan out. It felt to me that we were attempting to purge a man from his life work, for...What? I'm still not sure, a vague allegation of alienation of a hypothetical future user base. I found the whole thing distasteful, and moved away from guix as a consequence. I do in earnest hope they rescind their statement - if nothing else the timing of it was terrible, like they were jumping on a bandwagon.
zoobab 6y ago
The "hot ladies" sticker on his door was not his work, someone put it there and took a picture. A staged coup: http://techrights.org/2020/09/10/the-fake-door-sign/ http://techrights.org/2020/09/10/the-fake-door-sign/
de_nied 6y ago
Reminder that Alexandre Oliva was also forced out by his fellow FSF board members for defending RMS from false accusations. https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2021-01-10-resignation.en.html https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2021-01-10-resignati... https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2020-12-19-leadership.en.html https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2020-12-19-leadershi...
NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S It's great that he's back, but he shouldn't have been gone in the first place. Mob justice ("cancelling") shouldn't be a thing. It's time we had a serious discussion about what we can do to stop this. Step 0 should be finding the courage to stick up for people like RMS in the first place. Subsequent steps? I'm not sure. We need to collectively get the feeling that it's gone way too far and the costs of sticking up for people like RMS are i) smaller than they seem, and ii) worth it.
okprod 6y ago
He's not coming back, he's already on the board and never left the voting board.
yurielt 6y ago
If you misread the comments that were made by Stallman as “defending” Epstein then maybe you should just learn to read period
angry_octet 6y ago
It is now clear that the FSF will never denounce the behavior of RMS, as they are his creature forever. As such, the organization is inherently toxic. That many of you cannot recognize the problem of having RMS in a leadership position, or indeed see nothing wrong with his words or behavior, is itself a savage indictment on tech culture. Please wear FSF and Free Stallman badges prominently so I know to avoid you at conferences and warn others from using your software. You are pariahs.
- temp8964 6y ago
  We should have moral giants lead every institution. Saints! The Perfect Beings! Please come down Earth to save this planet!
  - angry_octet 6y ago
    There are many exemplary and inspiring individuals in the open source community. Doubling down on a shitty one doesn't make any sense. But FSF is willing to sabotage its own reason for existence to satisfy his ego.
    - angry_octet 6y ago
      Your downvotes are just proving my point. You reveal yourselves to be unapologetic misogynists and protectors of institutional sexual predators.
threepio 6y ago
A mystifying and self-destructive decision by the FSF board. The FSF board has always been overloaded with white guys. If it wants to assert its relevance for another generation, it's long past time to start bringing in fresh voices, and stop serving as a nostalgia platform. What's going to happen in the next year or two is that Stallman is going to veer outside his lane again and say something even dumber. At that point, the entire FSF board is going to be on the hook for it, because they invited him back. That, in turn, is going to put the viability of the entire FSF into question.
- IThoughtYouGNU 6y ago
  rms IS the FSF.
unanswered 6y ago
dang, where is your pearl-clutching at all the casual ableism in this thread? Commenters are literally calling for the exclusion of people with autism from society. Can you take time out of your busy schedule banning anyone with diverging political views to take a look at the real problems in this thread?
hutzlibu 6y ago
I am on a quest for facts, hard in this debate. So this was the original post that lead to RMS resign. https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... Here is a defending one. https://whoisylvia.medium.com/richard-stallman-has-been-vilified-by-those-who-dont-know-him-a3907b25b4c7 https://whoisylvia.medium.com/richard-stallman-has-been-vili... But there I have a question. Regarding the "Knight for justice (and hot ladies)" sign. "not the sign about welcoming “hot ladies” on his MIT Media lab office door, which someone else wrote as a joke and which he removed but not before someone took a photo of it" Was the sign a one-time joke, someone knowingly did, RMS left amused there for a while, days, weeks, months? Or was he annoyed and removed it once he got to it? Or was it part of a smear campaign? Even just happened recently at the time of the attacks, or way before? Quite different scenarios. I suspect the first one to be true. But I am open to more solid facts, for example by someone, who actually was or is at the MIT.
- Avamander 6y ago
  Here's a better source than both of those: https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
- pnt12 6y ago
  In your quest for truth, do you question yourself: what's the harm of the sign? Is it sexual assault? Harassing? A bad joke? And what should we do about it? Ask him to take it out? Refuse to have him at conferences and universities? Kick him from MIT and the FSF? We're too quick with our judgment and punishment nowadays. This level of offense used to be normal from the Christian prudes and the scared moms, not the progressive liberals.
  - symlinkk 6y ago
    The same people that celebrate women creating OnlyFans accounts and flaunting their sexuality online are pretending to be offended over this.
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
jasonpeacock 6y ago
Basically, "we've waited long enough for people to forget, we're bringing him back and we have no issue with his behavior which we hope will continue the same as before." RMS doesn't need to be on the board to have an impact - he's already well known (for better or worse) and can support the FSF as an individual. Apparently no one learned anything from the experience, and history will repeat itself. FSF has shown its true colors - a cult of personality around RMS.
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notananthem 6y ago
He can continue broadcasting being an asshole with shitty views, but if he also serves on a board of directors (exec director or not) that board and the organizations it represents and partners with are now all broadcasting a distilled, more virulent form of that message. Its not cancel culture its just his fucking time.
fargle 6y ago
maybe one should consider whether someone should be a board member based on his/her performance as a board member? Not what someone else assumes he/she might believe, based on a misquoted 2nd hand story about someone else's alleged bad behavior. Oh, no, here's "evidence" that he/she might be guilty of wrong-think! Or not defending strongly enough the right-think! TRAITOR!!!
imwillofficial 6y ago
Speaking for underaged victims everywhere. Stallman can burn in Hell.
angry_octet 6y ago
It is now clear that the FSF will never denounce the behavior of RMS, as they are his creature forever. As such, the organization is inherently toxic. That many of you cannot recognize the problem of having RMS in a leadership position, or indeed see nothing wrong with his words or behavior, is itself a savage indictment on tech culture. Please wear FSF and Free Stallman badges prominently so I know to avoid you at conferences and warn others from using your software. You are pariahs. Flag this all you like, it's something I'll keep repeating. You're on the wrong side of history.
selfishgene 6y ago
Both MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers. Not sure why it would be appropriate then to exclude Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while allowing Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus either: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op-ed https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... What are the allegations against Stallman regarding the aiding and abetting of sex-trafficking and/or child rape?
selfishgene 6y ago
Both MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers. Not sure why it would be appropriate then to exclude Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while allowing Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op-ed https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... What are the allegations against Stallman regarding the aiding and abetting of sex-trafficking and/or child rape?
chernobit 6y ago
Richard. We are really with you until the end. Regardless of the lies behind to destroy the free software movement.
deleted 6y ago
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dang 6y ago
This thread is paginated, so to see the rest of the comments you need to click More at the bottom of the page, or like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224&p=3 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224&p=3 (Posts like this will go away once we turn off pagination.)

844 points by wrycoder 6y ago

FSF always looked scary to me... this is a board that unify and welcome free softwares from different kind of licenses... FSF were founded by RMS which GNU is part of it and GNU is also founded by RMS. In the hope you understand :)

wrycoder 6y ago

RMS: "I'm not planning to resign a second time!"

hYKdTfpa 6y ago

The attacks on him were dubious at best.

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bigtones 6y ago
Are they.... here is a direct quote from him on a pro-pedophilia political party in 2006 that many that people took offence with: “I am sceptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren’t voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing.” https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-richard-stallman-has-some-moronic-thoughts-about-pedophilia/amp/ https://thenextweb.com/dd/2019/09/13/free-software-icon-rich...
- hn8788 6y ago
  When taken out of context it looks bad, but when it's part of a broader discussion about morality and law not always matching up, it makes sense. Age of consent laws vary around the world, and it doesn't make sense why someone could legally have consensual sex with someone in one country, but if they had sex in a place with different age of consent laws, they'd be branded a pedophile.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    It wasn't part of a broader discussion.[1] And he wasn't talking about adolescents.[2] [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20... [2] https://stallman.org/notes/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April_2019_(Plea_deal_for_Epstein) https://stallman.org/notes/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April_2019_(...
  - phpnode 6y ago
    This is an example where the quote is actually worse with the broader context.
- bpodgursky 6y ago
  This is not something I would say, or something I would ever recommend someone say, but it is 100% the type of open questioning an autism-spectrum person would ask when they don't understand the emotional weight or implications behind asking such a question.
- cambalache 6y ago
  Was he being an actual child-predator, was he sharing child porn? Suppose some guy (Stallman or not) argues that the age of consent should be lowered to 14. Now you are in your right to oppose to that proposal or even be disgusted by it. What you dont have the right to is to silence and ostracize the guy or even suggest that opinion must have any type of consequence , be it legal or moral.
  - ramraj07 6y ago
    I have the right to attempt to silence or ostracise anyone for anything. Whether or not it’s successful depends on the situation and climate of the world at that time. He has the right to say whatever he wants to say as well. He wasn’t jailed for it just fired for it. Ask him to suck it up and then everyone here can also do the same thing instead of crying a river. Also, please try to show a single example of a person who defended pedophilia and ended up not being one? Discussing age of consent with respect to reducing it below 18 sounds like tacit support of the same. Many countries have lower ages, sure, but its not clear to me that this is because they were morally thought through decisions, mere figments of history that people cling to in the name of culture (also many of the decision makers seem happy to have the freedom to have sex with 14 year olds as well I suppose).
    - JarlUlvi 6y ago
      You don't need a high IQ to look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_age_of_consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_age_of_co... and understand there are huge definitional problems of defining pedophilia. > Also, please try to show a single example of a person who defended pedophilia and ended up not being one? You've managed to stuff many logical fallacies into a fairly short statement. Bravo!
    - gruez 6y ago
      > I have the right to attempt to silence or ostracise anyone for anything. Whether or not it’s successful depends on the situation and climate of the world at that time. Well, not really. If you try to ostracize someone for being black you'll quickly face legal and/or social sanctions. >Also, please try to show a single example of a person who defended pedophilia and ended up not being one? Does expressing skepticism of the scientific basis behind anti-pedophilia laws constitute "defending" pedophilia? Furthermore, if the argument is valid, who cares who's mouth it's coming from? This looks like a lazy attempt to dismiss someone's argument.
- konjin 6y ago
  Odd that none of the teens Epstein slept with would be illegal to sleep with in Germany. Pedophilia is starting to mean 'sex I find icky' in the US.
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - buisi 6y ago
    German Law is a bit more complicated than people give it credit for. While the police might not proactively go after cases involving some older minors, they will if the person files a complaint. If a situation involves "exploitation" under the law, as most of Epstein's crimes would be considered to, then it is also automatically illegal.
    - konjin 6y ago
      Yes, rape is a bad thing that gets reported in other countries too.
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  Sounds like he is trying to follow the science. Aren’t we all about that nowadays? His statement is perfectly reasonable. Also, it’s extremely dishonest of you, and frankly a little contemptible, to keep smearing a man by taking this out of context and failing to also mention where he learned more about the issue and changed his views. This serves no other purpose than character assassination.
- r3856283 6y ago
  But after someone read it they spoke to him about it and he realized he was wrong and published a correction right along side it and that was many years ago. You should have mentioned that. If he hadn't said it publicly, and only said it in private to people, that wouldn't have happened. Is that better? I don't think so. Free speech creates counter speech and changes people's minds.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    He didn't retract anything until just before he resigned as far as I know.[1] The retraction wasn't right along side his earlier comments.[2][3] 6 years isn't many at his age. And he fixed a link without changing anything else just 1 year before. Defend him if you want. But let's be accurate. [1] https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September_2019_(Sex_between_an_adult_and_a_child_is_wrong) https://stallman.org/archives/2019-jul-oct.html#14_September... [2] https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202006%20(Dutch%20paedophiles%20form%20political%20party) https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html#05%20June%20... [3] https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2013_(Pedophilia) https://stallman.org/archives/2012-nov-feb.html#04_January_2...
    - CRConrad 6y ago
      Someone far above posted an archive.org link from, was it 2006?, that allegedly showed him already having changed his mind on something by then. AFAICR from the discussion it was either exactly what you're talking about or something very similar. (Sorry, you're on your own looking for it -- it was on the first page at the time I saw it.)
- wsc981 6y ago
  I think this view of Stallman was quite widespread in the 70s, or at the very least much more widespread than it is today. I read in The Netherlands in the 70s child porn was quite readily available. See also “Chick arrest”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_the_Netherlands https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_th... In this period there were even politicians openly advocating for allowing sex with children on television: https://youtu.be/nSMpAhQRDB8 https://youtu.be/nSMpAhQRDB8 (Dutch spoken) It seems to me often the people advocating for allowing sex with children would be left-oriented. https://timeline.com/children-of-god-5245a45f6a2a https://timeline.com/children-of-god-5245a45f6a2a However I believe most decent human beings these days realize sex with children can be very harmful to children. Perhaps this is a background Stallman grew up in.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > It seems to me often the people advocating for allowing sex with children would be left-oriented. And teenagers. My kid's progressive K-12 private school had a scandal recently when more than a dozen victims came forth with allegations that they had been sexually abused by male teachers in the 1970s. Much of the testimony recounts that sexual relationships between male teachers and high school students were an "open secret" around the school, teachers would invite students to parties at their houses, etc. It was a very liberal school back then too--the fact that it did not generate a scandal at the time despite being an "open secret" tells you about how the boundaries were being pushed in various directions back then. Luckily that turned out to be an ideological dead end.
dang 6y ago
Unrelated to the topic, but could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other users to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?query=community%20identity%20by:dang&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0 https://hn.algolia.com/?query=community%20identity%20by:dang...
- fsflover 6y ago
  Technically, such guideline prohibits anonymous speech, because how you speak can reveal your identity after a certain threshold...
  - dang 6y ago
    These are all questions of degree and how to balance trade-offs, so while you've raised one legitimate concern (among the many), I don't think an absolute statement like "prohibits anonymous speech" is accurate.

prepend 6y ago

Sometimes I worry that we truly are devolving and things are getting worse. I think “eventually people will wise up and focus on what’s important” but then even crazier stuff keeps happening. This is a positive sign that maybe we can figure out how to eventually get it right and it won’t just be a circular firing squad getting smaller and smaller over time.

Traster 6y ago
I just want to chime in to say, either defend Stallman or don’t. Don’t do this silly moral panic “I worry about society” thing. Address the issues, don’t make gross generalisations.
- cambalache 6y ago
  Agree. Now save that reply for the next time the democrats/republicans/sjw/faang employees/the media say the world is going to be over every time a group of people do something kinda shitty.
- konjin 6y ago
  When I can call you sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, sexist and a nazi before breakfast addressing the issues misses the point of why the issues are being raised. Pretending that these people have any morals past gathering power is as stupid as pretending that the mob burning down your restaurant is your fault for not installing enough sprinklers to put out napalm.
- strictnein 6y ago
  "Only discuss the topic I wish you to discuss" is definitely an interesting take.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    Avoiding generic tangents isn't just an interesting take, it's actualy a site guideline. > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.

williesleg 6y ago

Well he stinks. I met him. He does stink.

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Mediterraneo10 6y ago

I think it is strange that, on the one hand, the tech world has been advocating for the rights of neurodivergent people – society should accept that people on the autism spectrum are different and that’s OK. But at the same time RMS has been attacked for some statements very probably stemming from his autism that, while they may seem a bit shocking and at odds with the mainstream, were not illegal or intentionally offensive.

compiler-guy 6y ago
It wasn’t just a few statements. It is a constellation of issues that make him very hard to interact with. A few final statements did bring him down, but he had been chipping at the foundation for years.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Again, maybe it was "hard to interact with him" only if one was unwilling to accept his difference?
  - JohnHaugeland 6y ago
    Please stop. He argued that pedophilia was okay.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - dempseye 6y ago
      Where did he say that?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - mjg59 6y ago
        This is probably a reference to https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html https://stallman.org/archives/2006-mar-jun.html: "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren't voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing."

varispeed 6y ago

I wish FSF also started caring about the developers. Free software was and is a great idea, but unintended consequence is that it also facilitates exploitation of software developers by big corporations who from the perspective of FSF are just users as regular people. This means they make billions off of a software who someone built in their rented flat, living a modest life, sometimes struggling with bills, meanwhile the execs spend their time choosing a new jet and on which Caribbean island this time will be a general meeting of the board. FSF should start lobbying for royalty system for developers, so that big corporations using free software should have to pay % of revenue to all contributors of open source software they are using. Individuals and small companies would be exempt.

winter_blue 6y ago
Exactly this. I love and support open source[1], but I don’t support all software being “free of cost”. [1] Not the OSI definition of it.
- winter_blue 6y ago
  Do people actually support all software being free? Note that I said above: > but I don’t support all software being “free of cost” Does anyone really support all software being free? That means developers would have to live like saints / monks, with donations to support themselves (and forgo the the 250k income that's become the standard/median in Silicon Valley today...).
  - jrochkind1 6y ago
    Well, there are other ways to get income while producing software than selling the software. You can be a university professor. You can be funded by grants. You can have a job working for a non-software company that lets you produce free software for that company's use that you can also give away, while they keep paying your salary. Things like that were how open source software has been historically produced mostly, right? Heck, there could be a Universal Basic Income, and someone could choose to write the software they want while getting it. Yeah, none of these would be sufficient to produce all the software that is "needed" or wanted. So, as long as there are people willing to pay for software they can't get for free, all software won't be free. I support the idea of all software being free, including social changes that would be necessary for that to be realistic, such as serious alterations to capitalism.

creamytaco 6y ago

Stallman is a bastion of software freedom in a world turning progressively dark. The fact that he never ever compromised his ideals and principles, never sold out and has been repeatedly proven prescient and absolutely on the money on countless issues, makes him someone that we should strive to protect. There are many invididuals in the Free Software world that backstabbed RMS and tried to destroy him with malicious character attacks. Here is one example: https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and... Has Andy Wingo apologized?

tptacek 6y ago
For what would this person be apologizing? I'm not sure I understand your logic. It seems to me that we should be wary of our impulse to be protective of people whose principles we support. We often don't want to hear about the problematic things those people do.
corndoge 6y ago
No need to apologize for expressing their opinion, neither on RMS's part nor on the part of his detractors. What purpose is served? Both expressed their (presumably) legitimately held opinions, that is their right.
zeruch 6y ago
Apologize for what? What in his statement should be apologize for? It's an op-ed that the author himself qualifies with a fairly clear sense of wat exists "on the ground" and his opinion about it, both positive and negative. Frankly, Stallman has been a boat-anchor to his own cause more than much else for a while, and he is IMHO a vile little imp; his poor hygiene, both physical and emotional, and his chronic id-salving, went through their mileage before the current millennium started, let alone a few decades in.
- adolph 6y ago
  >his poor hygiene The social hygiene movement represented a rationalized, professionalized version of the earlier social purity movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_hygiene_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_hygiene_movement

ocdtrekkie 6y ago

It's unfortunate and frustrating that enough of a name brand around you, and you become basically immune to repercussions for your actions. This isn't a good day for the FOSS community.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dralley 6y ago

IMO, Stallman is a good philosophical leader, but a terrible organizational leader. "On the board" is a decent compromise. But he has been a huge contributor to GNU's decent into irrelevance in recent years. As an organization, they're perpetually stuck in the 1990s.

astrange 6y ago
FSFLA is actually pretty productive as I understand it. FSF US seems to spend all their time starting irrelevant political campaigns with terrible pun-based slogans.
- blagie 6y ago
  FSF US is pretty much a one-man show, and does pretty well for a one-man show for impact. It's basically RMS and a few people to support him, as far as I can tell. A one-man show with the one man missing made no sense to me.
m463 6y ago
Honestly, I think the GNU software is a little like "giving a man a fish" Meanwhile, the GPL License is more "teaching a man to fish", and I think the software written and protected by this license has grown, both in importance and coverage. Lots of people are "getting it" as we clearly see how "our" phones and computers are really not living up to their promise.
dehrmann 6y ago
> he has been a huge contributor to GNU's decent into irrelevance in recent years. As an organization, they're perpetually stuck in the 1990s. I agree, but this reason, alone, is enough for him to be off the board. Maybe his time has passed, maybe free software has grown into something larger than he has vision for, maybe it grew in a way incompatible with his vision.
- klodolph 6y ago
  GNU, which develops software, should have separate leadership from the FSF, which does advocacy. Stallman should have given up GNU long ago to someone better, but he’s much better at advocacy which is what the FSF does.

adabae 6y ago

armchairhacker 6y ago

Some context I got from https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of-the-clueless-nerd/ https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of...: Stallman was pressured to resign from the board and MIT because of some of these controversies: - Jeffrey Epstein coerced one of his victims to have sex with Marvin Minsky. In an online thread, Stallman argued that this might not be sexual assault if Minsky didn't realize she was coerced. - 10 years ago, Stallman claimed that 14 year olds are old enough to consent to sex and it's not pedophilia. He since retracted this claim - He is generally very weird and doesn't have etiquite. For example, he was invited to a fancy restaurant and then pranced around the tables because he wanted to dance Overall, Stallman is very unaware of societal expectations, so sometimes he says things ranging from non-PC to outright sexist, albeit unintentionally. EDIT: Fixed some inaccuracies

snvzz 6y ago
Here's another review[0] of the events. [0] https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ A character assassination campaign, and nothing more than that.
r3856283 6y ago
Not quite. Someone vandalized his name card adding the hot ladies part and took a picture. That was never him. And you turned the quote "pranced around the tables" to "pranced around on the tables." ... why?
- r3856283 6y ago
  The parent was edited. Thanks.
throwawaycdn12 6y ago
Canada only raised their age of consent from 14 to 16 in 2008. I don't think Canada should be cancelled as a result of this.
- preommr 6y ago

wmf 6y ago

For those who do not know RMS personally: "I worked for RMS longer than any other programmer. ... This was an own-goal for RMS. He has had plenty of opportunities to learn how to stfu when that’s necessary. ... I can confirm the unfortunate reality that RMS’s behavior was a concern [in the 1990s], and that [Marvin Minsky's] protection was itself part of the problem. He was never held to account; he was himself coddled in his own lower-grade misbehavior and mistreatment of women. He made the place uncomfortable for a lot of people, and especially women. ... RMS’s mere presence on the scene in this way has served to make it harder to deal with other cases of bad leaders’ bad behavior. It is time for the free software community to leave adolescence and move to adulthood, and this requires leaving childish tantrums, abusive language, and toxic environments behind." — Thomas Bushnell https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...

r3856283 6y ago
He didn't work with or for RMS longer than any other programmer, there are many who have longer. Gerald J. Sussman is a programmer and hired him at MIT and is still on the board of FSF and still working with him, that is over 40 years. And RMS has grown over the years. This is from over 20 years ago.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  "for" and "with" are different words.
  - r3856283 6y ago
    Sorry. Edited.
    - darig 6y ago
      Me and Galvin Belson have a combined net worth of a billion dollars. "for" and "with or for" are different words.
6y ago

userbinator 6y ago

The canary has been resuscitated... while I don't agree with everything he says, I think we do need an extremist or two to keep the fringes of opinion where they are.

colechristensen 6y ago
I am quite fine with RMS being a software freedom zealot. I don't agree with his extremist views but agree that there is value in that kind of fringe existing. This does not extend to some or many of his other expressed views and behaviors outside of the realm of software freedom.

deft 6y ago

holy fucking HYPE. I'm glad I emailed advocating for him. He actually got back to me because the pansies running FSF's emails had no good answers to any of my questions.

user3939382 6y ago

I think we can look to someone for their philosophy on software without them having to pass a wokeness purity test. I also respect and understand these issues are a quasi-religion to many and that they feel differently.

jdub 6y ago

Richard says he's not autistic. People who try to conflate his bad behaviour and autism are excusing his behaviour and unfairly generalising about autistic people. Richard is argumentative about his bad behaviour. He's not oblivious. Plenty of people have spoken to him about it. You'd think he might take a hint after being removed from his own organisation and all the surrounding commentary. He doesn't care. (Separately, "techrights" is run by an obsessive troll who harasses people in the FLOSS community.)

blagie 6y ago
No, I think claiming one can extrapolate from one particular autistic person to all autistic people is "unfairly generalising about autistic people." Autism is a broad spectrum (and far from unidimensional) which manifests in a broad diversity of ways. I'll generally excuse people who are trying to do the right thing. Richard is trying to do the right thing. If you don't, you'll do very badly in other cultures. By US standards, most cultures do things which are extremely abusive or neglectful (and vice-versa). I will also mention autism is a psychological term defined in DSM, not a self-identity term. Many people who are autistic don't believe they are, and vice-versa. It's not a personal choice.
- jdub 6y ago
  He doesn't do the right thing. He becomes agitated and sometimes aggressive when anyone points out that they're uncomfortable with his behaviour. He is not interested in their perspective or comfort.
  - blagie 6y ago
    You're even more confused. Please reread: "I'll generally excuse people who are trying to do the right thing. Richard is trying to do the right thing." I understand within your cultural frame and value system, ethical behavior is defined with regards to other people's comfort. That's not true for Richard (not for the culture I was born in, for that matter; I don't much care if people around me feel comfortable, nor if they make me feel comfortable, although I do know how to code switch, and do so in professional settings so as to be successful in the US). Cross-cultural fluency involves being able to interact with people with different value systems. People in the Middle East, China, or Russia will have very different views of what the right thing is from yourself. I've almost never met a person who tried as hard to do what *they* (not you, not me) believed was right as Richard.

hda2 6y ago

Good. Congratulations to Richard and all the members of the FSF. Hopefully, he can help them fix the damage they did while he was gone.

ddingus 6y ago

I am here to say I am pleased to see RMS active in software issues again. I am a fan of his ideas related to software, and his gift to us has paid me and most of my peers off over and over. Tons of others have added to all that and here we are today. Personally, I will consider what he says about software, data, IP. The man is not often wrong. Has a lot to say, and he should be heard. There are other issues, and that is all quite difficult. Painful. I would say unnecessary, but I know better, save to say I do not see that in terms of bad intent. I do see a very different set of priorities. Not speaking to right or wrong here, just understanding and a desire to move open ideas further along, bolster them to endure. I sincerely hope everyone involved can help keep the focus where it counts. I do not plan on speaking to RMS as a person, nor giving his opinions weight outside of computing freedom. Given these times, an RMS, however painful, seems necessary. I just want the software, data, IP vision to endure, thrive and continue to deliver far more use value than any one contributor adds or user invests. He can really help to do that, and I think he should. OSS is a beautiful thing. I remember the first time I heard about GNU. Was profound. Took a while, and the likes of ESR and others who took the time to write and speak to people like me seeking to grok it all. Unlike physical goods and services, software can be a multiplier. The whole is greater than the parts. We can, and often easily do, get more than we may give. These ideas have empowered people all over the world. And they range from curious, driven people of little means dumpster diving to get going through to others who may want for nothing, all able to pick up the body of OSS code and open data and run with it. I feel deeply our actions, law, norms, expectations all set now will matter for a very long time. Getting all that more right than wrong is going to touch pretty much everyone and the potential impacts are profound. The possible futures vary widely, and not just degrees of good. It could all be not so good at all. Either way, this will all solidify. Does not have to be bad. I sure hope it isn't.

CJefferson 6y ago
Genuine question, is there anything useful he has said in the last 10 years he has said you can point to? He seems helplessly lost in the past, before the web, the explosion in javascript, etc. etc.
- 6y ago

disposekinetics 6y ago

This is wonderful news. The hero has returned from the cancellation underworld.

yongjik 6y ago

We've all heard of the bus factor. Software project isn't a one-man show. There's no shortage of brilliant pioneers handing the baton to someone else or just sliding into obscurity for any number of reasons (e.g., got bored, found another passion, started a new project, gone off the rail, etc.). People no longer care about ESR's opinions, and that's OK. There's no reason FSF should need Stallman's continued presence - it's a software advocacy group, not a cult. I just find it frustrating that Stallman is considered beyond reproach, because he wrote something great decades ago, when his contribution in the past 20 years or so was hardly irreplaceable. Almost makes me wonder if he's being held as champion because he is an asshole who can't talk to women without creeping them out.

mvzvm 6y ago
Agreed 150%. I think a lot of older generation engineers like him because he is an asshole, and says things to women that they, in turn, feel. I think the sun is setting on the old, rude, archetype of engineer that cannot tolerate those different from them.
cblconfederate 6y ago
Not everyone is dispensable. I doubt there would be true free software without him. We need militant people to push towards that direction and there are not many
- lasagnaphil 6y ago
  It’s not the problem about being dispensable, it’s just that regardless of the hard work Stallman did over the past decades, it’s becoming harder and harder to justify his presence when many other contributors are losing faith the org because of him (such as the 33 people who signed a joint statement on the GNU project: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr...). Stallman should at least have apologized over some of his awkward and potentially offending behavior over the years and do some self-retrospection (which is what Linus did, and as a result has much higher ground than Stallman, since even if he still might think the drama was overblown it still shows that he cares and emphasizes others to a certain degree.) But it seems that none of that is done even at a superficial level, so I expect FSF would significantly lose more trust among developers after Stallman’s revival. (Note that HN isn’t the only place to measure overall dev opinion...)

phreack 6y ago

This is a controversial opinion, but I believe someone who turns any space he's in into an unsafe place for women should not be leading the FSF. No matter who or their accomplishments. I never saw him being kicked out as unfounded, there were years and years of people being solicited sexually even after explicit non-consent by this man. He just seems to be unwilling to be professional towards women.

fastball 6y ago
Wait what? I haven't heard these allegations and a quick check of Wikipedia didn't surface anything either. Citation?
- teddyh 6y ago
  Here’s a summary: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
veltas 6y ago
Can you explain how he is a threat to women's safety?

cheph 6y ago

I think professional conduct has been confused with other things. There is some basic standard of professional conduct that should be adopted in a professional environment. The lack of such a professional conduct is detrimental to the organization and all people who work for it. This professional conduct is not political correctness, it is not any specific political stance, it is basic things like don't make sexualized remarks, don't make sexual advances, don't ask for personal favours. If someone can't adhere to these basic standards it is not clear to me why everyone else in a professional environment should be disadvantaged on their part.

mvzvm 6y ago

Stallman is a disgusting pig. His behavior towards, and around, women cannot be excused by his technical contributions. He knows he is being sexist, and does not care.

globular-toast 6y ago
Women are strong and don't need your protection.

cblconfederate 6y ago

The first uncancellation?

denton-scratch 6y ago

Good.

mhh__ 6y ago

I don't really have much opinion here but I will say that there are some very tired arguments about usually nameless "woke" people going around this thread, which should really be substantiated by material evidence rather than singing to the choir.

jariel 6y ago

Here is the 10 page lists of Stallman's 'demands' for people hosting him [1]. This is considerably longer and more detailed than any heretofore described pop singer 'diva' or CEO. I can't think of anyone but heads of state with such requirements. Stop defending Stallman's 'neurodivergence' as some kind of excuse for his behaviour - this is straight up egocentric narcissism. [1] https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-community/c/zkyZpOXjgoQ/m/_8xyXSxv9zYJ?pli=1 https://groups.google.com/a/mysociety.org/g/mysociety-commun...

roenxi 6y ago
Stallman routinely goes to foreign countries and stays with people who he does not know. It is much more sensible just to write everything down and save time. I like cats if they are friendly, but they are not good for me; I am somewhat allergic to them. This allergy makes my face itch and my eyes water. So the bed, and the room I will usually be staying in, need to be clean of cat hair. However, it is no problem if there is a cat elsewhere in the house--I might even enjoy it if the cat is friendly. It'd be a bit weird to throw these out in the middle of a casual chat, but these details are extremely relevant to someone who owns a cat and is about to host Stallman. The easy way to get that information to them is to just send them the document. CEOs and pop singers stay at hotels, where there is a pretty well defined culture of what is to be expected. It is a much stabler environment than some random free-software style hippie's house. Heaven help the hotel that routinely has cat hair in the rooms, it will not get CEOs and pop stars staying there. And I expect Heads of State travel with chefs and butlers to sort these details out in person from a similarly detailed list. Or stay at a hotel.

deepstack 6y ago

return of jedi

africanboy 6y ago

Finally! When the Garrets of the World are defeated by facts, it's always a good day.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

Ok, he is more than a Saint of the Church of Emacs. See the signs: He delivered the Holy GNU OS, He was cancelled, and now He came back from being cancelled. Witness that He is the true messenger of GNU and the Messiah of the Free Software movement.

mustafa_pasi 6y ago

Mob justice is not OK just because women do it. If these women have anything substantial they should make formal reports/complaints, not anonymous vogue statements like, "he make me feel uncomfortable". Cannot believe that one even has to say this. Why are women always presumed to be innocent and men always presumed to be guilty? Also, frankly, there is a point at which, certain behaviour might make you feel uncomfortable, but that does not mean it is grounds for firing that person. At some point you have to just fend for yourself and tell the person to fuck off. We cannot just fire anyone who has some harmless quirk that you don't appreciate. I myself have to work with loads of people with nasty behaviours, but I don't presume to demand they all get fired just because of that. I mean, this has gotten ridiculous. We went from "he grabbed me by the pussy" and "he jerked off in front of me" to .... "he once hit on me and I had to reject him". The latter is perfectly normal behavior unless you propose we criminalize being a man.

disgruntled101 6y ago
What you are saying here would get you cancelled 100 times over if you were a public person, sadly.
- cryptica 6y ago
  It goes to show that it's not regular people who create 'cancel culture'. It's the financial elite. They do it as means to push forward a financial agenda. If those who orchestrate the cancellations were who they portray themselves to be, the hypocrisy would be brain-splitting. The only reason their brain lobes are still attached together is because they know that they're being deceptive and it's part of an agenda. It's not possible for a rational, cohesive mind to believe that a person who dedicated his whole life to free software is a bad person just because he once said something without thinking through it.
  - noobermin 6y ago
    I think some cancellations are driven by powerful people but I'd say most are definitely organic.

pvaldes 6y ago

The autism debate is very interesting, but I can fall to mention that I'm glad to see him so happy again.

noobermin 6y ago

I feel like a lot of the cancel culture whining coming from people on the right is silly, things like Dr. Seuss and what have you, but there are instances that aren't helpful or require more justification, like rms here or Alexi McCammond. Furthermore, It's kind of funny seeing some folks defend rms who wouldn't defend him on anything else, particularly on some of his activist stances.

yc-kraln 6y ago

Big surprise, the white male suffers no real consequences. Just keep broadcasting the message, and asking why there are hardly any women or PoC in the industry.

noobermin 6y ago
It's kind of convenient to blame lack of cancellation for the lack of diversity in tech over say hiring preferences of tech companies. This attitude reminds me of that post about github's use of "master" a few days ago.
globular-toast 6y ago
No consequences for what? Stallman resigned 18 months ago. Did it make any difference to woman or "PoC" in the industry? How much positive discrimination, quota hiring and preferential treatment do you need before you realise maybe women don't want to be in this industry any more than they want to be in the bricklaying or ditch digging industry.

tlear 6y ago

Did he have to issue a self flagellating tear eyed apology and ask for maximum sentence in front of the People's Tribunal? Sounds like he did not, is the tide starting to turn? Will we stop shaming and cancelling people over a shirt they wear? (was my personal turning point)

jasonvorhe 6y ago

Wow, people actually think that being somewhat neuro-diverse is reason enough or even an excuse for RMS behavior? I haven't been a fan of the FSF in years (especially after meeting a few of their employees in Germany) but bringing RMS back is the definitive nail in the coffin of that organisation. I wouldn't be surprised if the few reasonable people still working for FSF leave and the org shuts down in a few years because they can't attract talent anymore and their donations dry up.

srer 6y ago

Wonderful news! I recall https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-pr... happening at the same time as the FSF incident, which fortunately didn't pan out. It felt to me that we were attempting to purge a man from his life work, for...What? I'm still not sure, a vague allegation of alienation of a hypothetical future user base. I found the whole thing distasteful, and moved away from guix as a consequence. I do in earnest hope they rescind their statement - if nothing else the timing of it was terrible, like they were jumping on a bandwagon.

zoobab 6y ago

The "hot ladies" sticker on his door was not his work, someone put it there and took a picture. A staged coup: http://techrights.org/2020/09/10/the-fake-door-sign/ http://techrights.org/2020/09/10/the-fake-door-sign/

de_nied 6y ago

Reminder that Alexandre Oliva was also forced out by his fellow FSF board members for defending RMS from false accusations. https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2021-01-10-resignation.en.html https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2021-01-10-resignati... https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2020-12-19-leadership.en.html https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2020-12-19-leadershi...

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago

R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S R-M-S It's great that he's back, but he shouldn't have been gone in the first place. Mob justice ("cancelling") shouldn't be a thing. It's time we had a serious discussion about what we can do to stop this. Step 0 should be finding the courage to stick up for people like RMS in the first place. Subsequent steps? I'm not sure. We need to collectively get the feeling that it's gone way too far and the costs of sticking up for people like RMS are i) smaller than they seem, and ii) worth it.

okprod 6y ago

He's not coming back, he's already on the board and never left the voting board.

yurielt 6y ago

If you misread the comments that were made by Stallman as “defending” Epstein then maybe you should just learn to read period

angry_octet 6y ago

It is now clear that the FSF will never denounce the behavior of RMS, as they are his creature forever. As such, the organization is inherently toxic. That many of you cannot recognize the problem of having RMS in a leadership position, or indeed see nothing wrong with his words or behavior, is itself a savage indictment on tech culture. Please wear FSF and Free Stallman badges prominently so I know to avoid you at conferences and warn others from using your software. You are pariahs.

temp8964 6y ago
We should have moral giants lead every institution. Saints! The Perfect Beings! Please come down Earth to save this planet!
- angry_octet 6y ago
  There are many exemplary and inspiring individuals in the open source community. Doubling down on a shitty one doesn't make any sense. But FSF is willing to sabotage its own reason for existence to satisfy his ego.
  - angry_octet 6y ago
    Your downvotes are just proving my point. You reveal yourselves to be unapologetic misogynists and protectors of institutional sexual predators.

threepio 6y ago

A mystifying and self-destructive decision by the FSF board. The FSF board has always been overloaded with white guys. If it wants to assert its relevance for another generation, it's long past time to start bringing in fresh voices, and stop serving as a nostalgia platform. What's going to happen in the next year or two is that Stallman is going to veer outside his lane again and say something even dumber. At that point, the entire FSF board is going to be on the hook for it, because they invited him back. That, in turn, is going to put the viability of the entire FSF into question.

IThoughtYouGNU 6y ago
rms IS the FSF.

unanswered 6y ago

dang, where is your pearl-clutching at all the casual ableism in this thread? Commenters are literally calling for the exclusion of people with autism from society. Can you take time out of your busy schedule banning anyone with diverging political views to take a look at the real problems in this thread?

hutzlibu 6y ago

I am on a quest for facts, hard in this debate. So this was the original post that lead to RMS resign. https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec210794 https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... Here is a defending one. https://whoisylvia.medium.com/richard-stallman-has-been-vilified-by-those-who-dont-know-him-a3907b25b4c7 https://whoisylvia.medium.com/richard-stallman-has-been-vili... But there I have a question. Regarding the "Knight for justice (and hot ladies)" sign. "not the sign about welcoming “hot ladies” on his MIT Media lab office door, which someone else wrote as a joke and which he removed but not before someone took a photo of it" Was the sign a one-time joke, someone knowingly did, RMS left amused there for a while, days, weeks, months? Or was he annoyed and removed it once he got to it? Or was it part of a smear campaign? Even just happened recently at the time of the attacks, or way before? Quite different scenarios. I suspect the first one to be true. But I am open to more solid facts, for example by someone, who actually was or is at the MIT.

Avamander 6y ago
Here's a better source than both of those: https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
pnt12 6y ago
In your quest for truth, do you question yourself: what's the harm of the sign? Is it sexual assault? Harassing? A bad joke? And what should we do about it? Ask him to take it out? Refuse to have him at conferences and universities? Kick him from MIT and the FSF? We're too quick with our judgment and punishment nowadays. This level of offense used to be normal from the Christian prudes and the scared moms, not the progressive liberals.
- symlinkk 6y ago
  The same people that celebrate women creating OnlyFans accounts and flaunting their sexuality online are pretending to be offended over this.
- hutzlibu 6y ago

jasonpeacock 6y ago

Basically, "we've waited long enough for people to forget, we're bringing him back and we have no issue with his behavior which we hope will continue the same as before." RMS doesn't need to be on the board to have an impact - he's already well known (for better or worse) and can support the FSF as an individual. Apparently no one learned anything from the experience, and history will repeat itself. FSF has shown its true colors - a cult of personality around RMS.

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notananthem 6y ago

He can continue broadcasting being an asshole with shitty views, but if he also serves on a board of directors (exec director or not) that board and the organizations it represents and partners with are now all broadcasting a distilled, more virulent form of that message. Its not cancel culture its just his fucking time.

fargle 6y ago

maybe one should consider whether someone should be a board member based on his/her performance as a board member? Not what someone else assumes he/she might believe, based on a misquoted 2nd hand story about someone else's alleged bad behavior. Oh, no, here's "evidence" that he/she might be guilty of wrong-think! Or not defending strongly enough the right-think! TRAITOR!!!

imwillofficial 6y ago

Speaking for underaged victims everywhere. Stallman can burn in Hell.

angry_octet 6y ago

selfishgene 6y ago

Both MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers. Not sure why it would be appropriate then to exclude Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while allowing Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus either: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op-ed https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... What are the allegations against Stallman regarding the aiding and abetting of sex-trafficking and/or child rape?

selfishgene 6y ago

Both MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers. Not sure why it would be appropriate then to exclude Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while allowing Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op-ed https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... What are the allegations against Stallman regarding the aiding and abetting of sex-trafficking and/or child rape?

chernobit 6y ago

Richard. We are really with you until the end. Regardless of the lies behind to destroy the free software movement.

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dang 6y ago

This thread is paginated, so to see the rest of the comments you need to click More at the bottom of the page, or like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224&p=3 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26535224&p=3 (Posts like this will go away once we turn off pagination.)