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Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

• tylerjwilk00 6y ago
  Good bye free speech. Hello unbridled control and censorship.
• ssivark 6y ago
  I have no idea whether this is correlated with the other recent de-platforming events, but the rapidly growing list of examples is now getting ridiculous. It’s crazy to imagine that the rug could get pulled out from beneath any of us, any time, under any pretext (or no pretext at all!). I don’t know whether a more apt metaphor alludes to serfs on feudal land, or The Trial by Kafka. If it turns out this is because of specific discussions/channels then banning the Element app for that makes about as much sense as banning Facebook/Twitter for what some people said, or Google because of what some website says.
  • DLA 6y ago
    This is the upside down crazy we are faced with when a tiny number of giant companies make decisions on whims of ever changing policy. We need to fight back with things like PWAs to bypass the app stores, web socket chats, distributed social platforms, and plain old web pages to publicly document these attacks on free speech. Call/email Congress too. Get friends and neighbors to do the same. They are already alerted to this growing abuse by these monopolistic giants.
    • Arathorn 6y ago
      Good point. https://hydrogen.element.io https://hydrogen.element.io works very well as a PWA, but doesn’t have push support yet.
      • Santosh83 6y ago
        HSTS preloading blacklists may at some future point, block PWA as well. The real problem is indeed how much power society has given these corps. It's time to take back some power or we will never be able to.
        • duskwuff 6y ago
          > HSTS preloading blacklists may at some future point, block PWA as well. What on earth are you talking about? 1) As far as I am aware, there is no "HSTS preloading blacklist". I'm not sure what that would even mean. 2) HSTS preloading is not a prerequisite for creating a PWA. Nor is presence on the HSTS preload list (not "blacklist") an obstacle to creating a PWA.
        • mrighele 6y ago
          Even easier, the website used by the PWA can end up on the blacklist of Google Safe Browsing [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25802366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25802366
          • drchaos 6y ago
            In the medium/long term, this would just train people to ignore those popups. Or to use a patched browser. There is simply no way to suppress content as long as there's enough demand. Somebody's always going to find a way to deliver. That's even true for really illegal stuff like drugs, copyright infringement or child abuse material, but so much more for content which is legal.
            • mrighele 6y ago
              I was thinking specifically about PWA on Android. I don't think you can change the browser used in that case, and I could see Google decide that you cannot open a PWA if the website is on the blacklist.
              • georgyo 6y ago
                Apple has a hard requirement that you use the safari rendering engine for all browsers. So even Firefox on iOS is really just reskined safari. Android is much more open, you can download Firefox on Android and it will infact be Firefox. What would be more scary is if the force all browsers on the Google store to implement and enforce the same deny list.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • deleted 6y ago
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  • Thorentis 6y ago
    Banning Element because of channels created on a decentralised network makes as much sense as banning a web-browser because of websites created on a decentralised network (i.e., the Internet). Looking forward to Chrome's imminent removal from the Play Store.
    • seniorivn 6y ago
      only if chrome is not censoring internet which google is happy to do
• Arathorn 6y ago
  So we got notified by the developer console at 21:45 UTC that the app had been suspended, but still haven’t had an email to explain why - it’s 02:24 now. Our assumption that this is due to someone reporting abusive content in Matrix to Google, and Element catching the blame — although this is currently speculation. To be clear: Element is a Matrix client just as Chrome is a Web browser, and just as it’s possible to view abusive material via Chrome, the same is true of Element. However, we abhor abuse, and on the default matrix.org server (and other Matrix servers the core team maintains) we have a fairly strict terms of use at https://matrix.org/legal/terms-and-conditions#6-play-nice-clauses https://matrix.org/legal/terms-and-conditions#6-play-nice-cl... which we proactively enforce. Meanwhile we have a comprehensive toolset at https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation to help folks moderate, and are making good process with decentralised reputation to empower users and admins to filter out stuff they don’t want to see, as per https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/19/combating-abuse-in-matrix-without-backdoors https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/19/combating-abuse-in-matrix.... So, it’s very unfortunate and frustrating that we’re in this position - hopefully Google will explain what’s going on shortly.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • uncoder0 6y ago
    You, like Parler, have been targeted by the powers that be. You may have nothing else in common other than that but, you're in the same boat it seems.
    • tmpz22 6y ago
      Parler curated the content on their platform for months including shadowbanning new accounts until they had been approved by volunteer moderators. Accounts on Parler called for and planned violence against elected officials for months. Executives at the company spoke often and publicly supporting that content. If your going to argue with a straight face the this new situation is the same as Parler, your putting Element side by side with some very bad company.
• white-moss 6y ago
  I don't understand what google want to do...Evil.
• shash7 6y ago
  Add a link to the app's website.
  • lousken 6y ago
    https://element.io/ https://element.io/
• boring_twenties 6y ago
  Thank goodness for F-droid.
  • zeroping 6y ago
    I totally agree. Last time this happened with an app I use and trust, I rooted my phone and switched to lineageos to allow F-droid auto-updates. Google is not making me want to keep using their services. https://f-droid.org/packages/im.vector.app https://f-droid.org/packages/im.vector.app
  • canofbars 6y ago
    Until you find out that the app isn't able to use the google notification service so it puts a persistent notification in your bar and uses more battery.
    • boring_twenties 6y ago
      I was able to easily hide my persistent notification, and still get the actual notifications for messages. I understand it should use more battery, but my phones still last multiple days even with F-Droid versions of Element and Telegram running 24/7. One real annoyance is that after upgrading the apps, I need to start them again manually. Otherwise I won't receive any notifications until I do. IIRC with the Google Play versions, the push notifications will arrive and cause the app to start.
• quyleanh 6y ago
  Let people decides what is wrong and what is correct. Not big tech, not platform creator.
  • Proven 6y ago
    That's already in the US Constitution but these are private platforms, they ought to be able excessively moderate if they want to. The problem is no one wants to pay for ad-free services that focus on delivering shit they're paid to deliver, rather than optimize their "free" services for the advertisers and the government.
• 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
  Is this google starting to test the waters when it comes to arbitrarily kicking out software they personally don't like? (open source, decentralized, privacy oriented etc.) I might of course be exaggerating a bit here, keep that in mind. - Element and Matrix are growing but still not equipped to fight back at large against this, so it is unlikely to create too much negative press - If Google starts to catch too much critique for this decision they can put it back and always blame $error I believe Element will be back soon, the problem I see here is that it will be framed as an "honest mistake" and then become forgotten until they pull another stunt like this. Even if these removals are temporary, they can still hurt growth. Let's assume a bit more malice: Couldn't Google just monitor and analyze metrics of an undesirable app (downloads, usage, hype), pick a critical point in its growth then "accidentaly" remove it for a few days, causing damage that isn't immediately apparent, but nonetheless long lasting?
  • COGlory 6y ago
    I don't think this is the case. But in my opinion, the fact that we have no way of knowing and have to rely on Google not to do that is the real issue.
  • neonate 6y ago
    I think the situation is probably more interesting than deliberate anticompetitive evil. I bet that there was indeed some policy violation, and some minor bureaucrat is reasonably applying the policy, but in a way that misses the big-picture impact of doing so, for example threads of outrage high on Hacker News. The policies back them into being a monopolistic heavy whether they mean to or not, because they're so big that they basically have to rule the world and there's no mechanism for outsiders to have a say. The real problem is that the policies are not adapting to rapidly changing conditions (i.e. yet another takedown, howls of outrage, calls for regulation), and the big tech companies have become too sclerotic to cope with that. Worse (for them), they're vulnerable to being gamed. Once people figure out that saying "Jehovah" triggers the policy, some will keep saying "Jehovah Jehovah Jehovah" just to fuck with them and grow the popular outrage.
    • bdefore 6y ago
• rangoon626 6y ago
  Bookmarking this one for when my friends chide me for “still” using iOS.
  • crumbshot 6y ago
    On Android, it's still much easier to install apps from outside Google's app store (just change the "install unknown apps" setting, download the .apk file, and open it) than it is on iOS.
    • rootusrootus 6y ago
      As a practical matter, though, only a very small number of people will ever do that. Being kicked out of the play store is almost always going to be a death sentence for the app. Apple has earned plenty of criticism themselves, but I do appreciate that they curate the app store with humans.
      • Sunspark 6y ago
        They should kick Facebook out of the play store. See what happens. Facebook can then pivot to paying OEMs even bigger sums of money to bundle it with their devices.
      • crumbshot 6y ago
        But if both Apple and Google remove your app from their stores, at least Android has a fairly straightforward method for your users to install it straight from your website. For iOS your users will have to sign it themselves (but still via Apple, who could block that too) with their own developer account, just to get a time-limited install. Or, even worse, use a jailbroken device to work around all this.
        • rangoon626 6y ago
          Maybe we should be jailbreaking again
  • Saris 6y ago
• dvt 6y ago
  It's becoming more and more clear that there's a problem with these corporately-controlled "free markets" that are neither free nor are they markets. It's time for Congress to do more than just write strongly-worded letters to large tech conglomerates hoping that these kinds of anti-consumer practices stop. It's funny (or sad) that the meme du jour is "build your own app store, bro." We need: (1) transparency and (2) accountability. First of all, we can't have stuff getting arbitrarily censored or kicked off stores, because even though it may start with alt-right QAnon nonsense, it will lead to things like Hey, Epic, Fortnite, Robinhood ratings being scrubbed, WSB being banned, or now Element. The slippery slope is not hypothetical. It's here. Secondly, we can't just have AAPL, GOOG, FB, etc. merely say "oops, our bad" when the shit hits the fan. People get mad, they say "oops" -- even though the app may have lost thousands of customers and reputation -- and everyone forgets the snafu ever happened. This is not okay, and as consumers we should not be okay with it. I promise you Google will release a statement saying "certain groups" on Element "used some poopoo language" and the apologists will, yet again, be totally cool with it. (I don't feel my comment is particularly controversial, yet I'm being mass downvoted with no counter-arguments.. weird.)
  • TechnoTimeStop 6y ago
    The Digital Citizen has rights. And its time to draft them.
    • boomboomsubban 6y ago
      It's a shame nobody saw this coming fourty years ago and devoted his life to the cause.
      • sova 6y ago
        The infrastructure is run by private parties -- but since the advent of encryption it ought be possible to lay down some basic principles or precepts of the online denizen. "The Right to be Forgotten" is a strong step in the right direction, but anonymity sometimes makes people act rashly -- which reminds me of the need for Nettiquette. I believe the difficulty comes in guaranteeing backdoors for law-enforcement and crime-deterrence while still affording a strong level of privacy. It's unlikely that law enforcement will simply "get used to" the fact that encryption works and is difficult [and in the case of ECC likely intractable] to decipher. The alternative is state-run applications and tech-companies with cross-sectional presence of politically inclined people, or some weird tryst of tech companies, lobbying, legislation, and law-enforcement that effectively elevates tech companies to governance level without the primary oversight of elections to place them there. If there is a third option I'd love to hear it.
• newfeatureok 6y ago
  How could this be - I was told our corporate overlords are able to do whatever they'd regarding kicking people off their platforms? Whatever shall we do? The funny thing about the whole "do bad things and get kicked off" strategy is that every platform has abusers. Since Big Tech can arbitrarily decide the thresholds and circumstances that lead to being kicked off, this effectively means they can kick anyone off for any reason. Even on here, on Hacker News, if you dig deep enough I guarantee you can find questionable content (albeit probably downvoted) to justify deplatforming if you were tasked with deplatforming this site anyways.
  • will_pseudonym 6y ago
    FYI your comment was dead, and I vouched for it. You might be shadowbanned? Not sure, but regardless you might look into it.
• worik 6y ago
  Looking for a reason? From https://element.io/ https://element.io/ "Keeps conversations in your control, safe from data-mining and ads"
• shripadk 6y ago
  I got banned here for saying this but I'll continue to say it nevertheless. We are already in the Censorship Era. This is an Orwellian Nightmare. The quicker this is brought under control the better. The last thing we need is Corporate Overlords controlling what we say or do online. This includes Hacker News as well.
  • ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    In dictatorships at least there is a clear authority with clear rules. Here we have multiple aithorities makiblng it up as they go
    • sova 6y ago
      Judges get appointed, not elected; in a similar way, tech companies get appointed to these bizarre overseer positions, and it seems that they do not mind playing judge, jury, and exe.
    • simonh 6y ago
      So choice is a bad thing then?
  • illustriousbear 6y ago
    I think this is a fair point. That said I think we're more a corporate oligarchy that is behaving like a feudal system. We essentially seem to have corporate lords who are trying to appease the king government. Whether it be via censorship or other tools.
  • cortesoft 6y ago
    You got banned for saying that? I am skeptical
    • shripadk 6y ago
      I was banned for "flamewar" comments that I have been indulging in "for months". Sure I was banned for the last comment that ticked the mod off (a comment against privacy violations of users who had their data stolen through theft) but the decision was not based on that alone. It was based on comments leading up to it: Most of which concern Big Tech Censorship. You can check my comments section if you are sceptical. It's publicly accessible anyways.
• 435243543543 6y ago
  If there's a backlash, it will just be explained as an "oops," like when Firefox devs catch them doing stuff like this: >https://www.neowin.net/news/mozilla-executive-claims-that-google-has-made-youtube-slower-on-edge-and-firefox/ https://www.neowin.net/news/mozilla-executive-claims-that-go... >In a thread on Twitter, Mozilla's Technical Program Manager has stated that YouTube's Polymer redesign relies heavily on the deprecated Shadow DOM v0 API, which is only available in Chrome. This in turn makes the site around five times slower on competing browsers such as Microsoft Edge and Mozila Firefox. He went on to say that: >>YouTube serves a Shadow DOM polyfill to Firefox and Edge that is, unsurprisingly, slower than Chrome's native implementation. On my laptop, initial page load takes 5 seconds with the polyfill vs 1 without. Subsequent page navigation perf is comparable.
  • Sunspark 6y ago
    I worked around this problem in Firefox by changing the browser useragent for the YouTube site to an older version # though the fix won't last forever. I have become accustomed to using multiple browsers and OSes simply because of all the issues surrounding video playback.
    • swiley 6y ago
      I worked around this by removing YouTube from my life. I've been making much more progress on my personal projects since.
    • pmlnr 6y ago
      I simply accepted it loads slower. It's long bad if I don't have 5s to wait.
    • 4f8fje9frn 6y ago
      If I need youtube, I go to an invidious instance first.
• throwawayboise 6y ago
  Opt out. No Google. No Facebook. No Twitter. No Amazon. You don't need them, you might even enjoy life more without them. You can't change how they operate. But you can change how you operate.
  • marcinzm 6y ago
    > You don't need them, you might even enjoy life more without them. So I should probably lower the quality of my life to make a statement that will have no impact on them at all? >You can't change how they operate. Sure you can, by petitioning your government to draft laws and so on.
    • throwawayboise 6y ago
      I don't think it lowers quality of life. YMMV of course. Petition the government if you like. It doesn't matter. You don't have millions to donate to the next campaign or their personal enrichment. You're not who they care about.
    • illustriousbear 6y ago
      It's sad that your quality of life depends on Google or Facebook services. I quit Facebook along with most Google services, I feel much happier and more well adjusted than when I was using them. Meeting with family and friends is also much more interesting because I don't have a constant stream detailing their life. Good luck petitioning the government to act on it... this goes double for US businesses and people who live outside the US.
      • marcinzm 6y ago
        >It's sad that your quality of life depends on Google or Facebook services. Offhand the parent post would require me to give up Google Search (including via DDG), Gmail, Google Cloud, AWS, Amazon, Zappos, Audible, Comixology and Woot Shirts. I barely use Facebook or Twitter but the rest would lower my quality of life (and not just due to the large drop in employment opportunities I could take).
• meekrohprocess 6y ago
  If you think about it, a lot of Google and Apple's power comes from their dominance of the smartphone market. I hope that mobile computing follows the path of desktop computing, and we end up with more viable small-device OS options.
• clircle 6y ago
  What is Element?
  • baby 6y ago
    The chat client of Matrix
    • ArcVRArthur 6y ago
      One of many. matrix.org/clients
    • blhack 6y ago
      What is matrix? Like the movie? Or the math thing? (https://matrix.org/ https://matrix.org/)
      • vecter 6y ago
        https://matrix.org/faq/ https://matrix.org/faq/
      • garmaine 6y ago
        It's basically (IRC + XMMP) 2.0.
        • einpoklum 6y ago
          ... but in which typical client sessions look like Slack sessions, and the clients are typically heavy and slow and you would not enjoy running them on weak hardware :-(
          • SahAssar 6y ago
            There are a number of different clients to choose from, including web-based, electron-based, native, terminal: https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/
• ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  'Private company, they do what they want' gang arriving in 3, 2, 1..
  • dmix 6y ago
    Just monopolies protecting our democracy, like Adam Smith envisioned.
  • xxpor 6y ago
    That's true, but you can also disagree with the decision. It's not iOS where there's no alternative.
  • 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 6y ago
    Not if the "Hanlon’s Razor" crew gets here first
    • arduanika 6y ago
      Wouldn't this just not be a problem if they rewrote it in Rust?
      • arp242 6y ago
        Only if it would be on the blockchain.
      • lokedhs 6y ago
        Add a blockchain in there and we're in business.
  • young_unixer 6y ago
    'Private company, they do what they want' That's correct, but we can still boycott companies that do this.
    • honest_guy 6y ago
      We really can't. Smartphones are practically a mandatory part of modern life. My previous job required me to have one for tons of work-related authentication/software. There is no choice outside Google/Apple when it comes to mobile devices. None which are fully compatible with a normal person's way of life, or which provides access to the same apps. It may be technically possible to avoid them, but 'technically possible' and 'competitive alternative' are worlds apart.
• joshbuddy 6y ago
  I wonder if there is a way we place these App Store decisions into the hands of a third party. Either that or break Android away from Google and forbid them from colluding.
  • colechristensen 6y ago
    Legislation equating these walled gardens as a new kind of monopoly. Legislation making “terms and conditions” less like laws, and less enforceable.
    • onethought 6y ago
      But wouldn’t that bring down most software companies... terms and conditions have some pretty important legitimate uses...
      • colechristensen 6y ago
        No, software isn’t special, you should be able to buy it just like you buy other things.
        • onethought 6y ago
          What other things? Do you mean not using copyright as the underlying control mechanism? how do you recoup your investment then when making software? wont everyone just pirate/duplicate it?
          • dvdkon 6y ago
            "Terms and conditions" often contain more than just restrictions on copying, they can have everything from arbitration clauses, through anti-interoperability clauses, to obligations that go directly against local laws.
            • onethought 6y ago
• hda2 6y ago
  OEMs and software vendors have been pushing hard towards locking-down and controlling people's computing devices and people have largely been indifferent. It genuinely seemed all was going to be lost until the tech industry went crazy exercising their control. Their recent (and imo unjustifiable) actions have clearly demonstrated to everyone what it means to hand over control. It remains to be seen whether people will grasp this chance to reverse the course that this rotten industry has charted and is adamant on following.
  • userbinator 6y ago
    A lot of people already know that you can get apps directly as .apks, but the majority of them have been conditioned by corporate "propaganda" that they'll be almost certainly getting malware that way. The term "sideloading" was invented to ostracise and discourage the practice of acquiring software independently --- which was the norm up until Apple and its walled garden appeared. But now, perhaps when sufficiently large numbers of people realise that what "malware" means to the big corporations is different from what it means to users, we'll have another mini-revolution back to the independent sharing and community trust model that the industry tried to eliminate because it would subvert their control. I don't want to get too political here, but after seeing the outcome of the US election, and the events from then until now, I knew that stuff like this was going to happen.
    • simonh 6y ago
      Ok, that's some historical revisionism I've not see before. The term sideloading was invented by an internet storage service company to refer to copying files between remote storage buckets without having to do an upload or download. The term then got adopted by the community for copying MP3 files to a player from your computer.
      • onethought 6y ago
        But nothing about your facts help me hate on Google and Apple more... can’t the GP be right?
• Sunspark 6y ago
  I wonder if France will have something to say to Google about this in the EU.. France uses Matrix. Google's powerful, but they're not a legislative body.
  • Iv 6y ago
    France uses Matrix but not Element. They forked it and called it Tchap.
  • koalp 6y ago
    They use their own matrix client : tchap. They also use their own app store (not sure what it's based on) Therefore, French ministry that use matrix may not be affected
    • dathinab 6y ago
      > not sure what it's based on As far as I know it's based on element or at least co-develop by the element so while their "business" should not be affected directly. The secondary affects this will have if it continuous does affect them indirectly I think. The more worrying think that this is by far not the first time Google (or Apple) have taken down clients to "non http" networks. Sometimes blaming them for content on the network sometimes not saying anything. Which lets be honest is absurd given that they would have to delete all web-browsers using this arguments.
• slow_donkey 6y ago
  If anyone needs a download, you can easily install/sideload via f-droid or the app can be trivially built with './gradlew assembleDebug' (provide your own keys to build a release version)
  • gremlinsinc 6y ago
    What would be funny is if every developer who has an app in android, were to in a single day submit their own "branded" version of matrix/element. Basically as a protest. This can have far reaching effects for anyone worried about privacy, walled gardens, competing with social networks, etc...
  • jl2718 6y ago
    Is there a guide to doing this safely? As in, protected from malware.
    • sudosysgen 6y ago
      Go to the fdroid website, and download the store. Alternatively, pull the code from git, and follow the instructions to build the apk.
• agravier 6y ago
  Time to Riot again.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • throwaway888abc 6y ago
    Not funny. Do you think the riots are leading to better society/life ?
    • 1986 6y ago
      Riot is the name of another Matrix client *edited - the old name of Element, apparently.
    • anuragsoni 6y ago
      I believe the parent comment is referencing the fact that the Element application used to be called Riot [1]. [1] https://element.io/blog/welcome-to-element/ https://element.io/blog/welcome-to-element/
    • dbmikus 6y ago
      Riot is the name of another Matrix client.
      • throwaway888abc 6y ago
        Sweet. Was not aware. Thanks!
      • swiley 6y ago
        I'm pretty sure Riot was the original name of Element until 2020.
        • snvzz 6y ago
          Vector was the name, before they renamed to Riot.
• ycombigator 6y ago
  Stop using apps whenever you can. Use your browser.
  • lawl 6y ago
    Which one? The one also made by Google, the one paid for by Google, ones of those based on the one made by Google, or the one made by the other smartphone OS owner with a walled garden?
    • krastanov 6y ago
      I will bite: Firefox, the one that cares about privacy and open standards, even if it has a lot of income coming from a search bar deal with Google.
      • GekkePrutser 6y ago
        I think he covered that by 'the one paid for by Google' as the main income for Mozilla is the default search engine deal. But I agree, FF is the best
      • will_pseudonym 6y ago
        ...and doesn't care about deplatforming. "We need more than deplatforming" https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2021/01/08/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2021/01/08/we-need-more-than-d...
        • approxim8ion 6y ago
          Don't pretend like you're patronizing them. You're using a free browser. There's nothing they've done or can do to affect your experience within the browser, and it still remains an open browser. There's no moral hangups here beyond the ones you imagine for yourself.
          • will_pseudonym 6y ago
• ArcVRArthur 6y ago
  This is very disruptive to me. Our business chose to use Element because of the privacy and interoperability functions it afforded us through end-to-end encryption and the bridges feature (matrix.org/bridges).
  • J_tt 6y ago
    I'm in the same boat here, at least on Android alternatives such as F-Droid exist, however I'm concerned about the repercussions for MDM, as in our case (intune) we go through the Play store. My largest concern is if Apple follows suit, which could lead to large problems with our employees who use iPhones.
    • jtbayly 6y ago
      Recently I've been seriously considering finally ditching iPhone because I share the same concern. After all, Apple did the same to another company recently... so we know they are willing.
      • zepto 6y ago
        What other company did they do this to?
        • jtbayly 6y ago
          I think it started with a P. Paler, maybe? or Parter?
          • zepto 6y ago
            Google ditched that app too. If you move from iPhone, where would you go?
            • jtbayly 6y ago
              I don't really want to go to Android, but as was pointed out above, at least side loading is possible. Everyone still can get Element right now, even though Google has banned it from their store. But if Apple banned it, I'd be immediately unable to get it.
• brink 6y ago
  Remind me again what Fascism is and tell me how this isn't fascist.
  • gremlinsinc 6y ago
    Not fascist. So far they're not targeting a specific race, nor are they killing people by this decision. Monopolistic, capitalistic, cronyism -- yeah lots of that.
  • young_unixer 6y ago
    A political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. This is Google just being enormous assholes. Nothing to do with fascism.
    • wsc981 6y ago
      Mussolini had a somewhat different view, quote: >”Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." See: https://roanoke.com/news/local/quote-of-the-day-benito-mussolini-on-corporatism/article_1142b9c9-4df6-5e3c-92b4-33538011d97a.html https://roanoke.com/news/local/quote-of-the-day-benito-musso...
      • ttt0 6y ago
        > ”Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Not to be confused with corporate capitalism.
      • 8note 6y ago
        What would Mussolini have thought about filling the Italian government with brits or Germans? They definitely had the Italian enthocentrism with the trying to recreate the Roman Empire thing
• tylerl 6y ago
  Hold on. Nobody has explained why TF I'm supposed to care. Is Element important or something? Does this affect real people?
  • chc4 6y ago
    A friend group and I all jumped ship to Matrix and Element literally like two weeks ago because Discord randomly banned the server admin for "spam and abuse", which is shorthand for "triggered an opaque heuristic, probably from using Ripcord". So yeah, it's kinda a big deal to me that Google is saying that if Discord stops letting you play with their ball, you're not allowed to play with your own ball either.
  • IceWreck 6y ago
    Matrix is like a free, open source self hosted version of discord. You can use a popular homeserver, do it it yourself and host it at home. The element app is a client, just like chromium is a web browser.
• darig 6y ago
  How can I install Matrix on an android phone without using the Google Play store?
  • ranger207 6y ago
    It's on F-Droid.
  • opan 6y ago
    F-Droid has Element and a few other Matrix clients available.
  • nolim1t 6y ago
    There is other clients available too. The protocol is essentially decentralized
  • colllectorof 6y ago
    F-Droid is the best way for open source apps, but also most APKs are available outside of Play Store via websites like https://www.apkmirror.com/ https://www.apkmirror.com/. It's a bit of a risk to load apps like that, though.
    • NeutronStar 6y ago
      It's a different risk than having your app removed because google doesn't like it indeed.
    • cft 6y ago
      How do push notifications work when it's not intergated with Google Play?
    • swiley 6y ago
      It's a shame EV certs are so hard to get. APK signatures use certificates and we could use the already existing CA infrastructure to make app stores unnecessary but stuff didn't work out that way.
• IceWreck 6y ago
  I don't use any google services other than youtube at all, but this is hard to justify, even for google.
• bdefore 6y ago
  Again the giants overplay. But when does the hammer come down upon them that they like to so wield?
• young_unixer 6y ago
  I hope more apps start allowing to directly download an .apk file from their website. I don't have Google Play Services or the Play store installed on my phone nor do I want to install them. Yes, it's my responsibility to update the app, whatever, just give me the file.
  • cft 6y ago
    Then how do you get instant messaging notifications?
    • young_unixer 6y ago
      I think I don't. Sometimes I get notifications, sometimes it may take hours for me to get the notification. I rarely use instant messaging for important things, and when I do, I make sure to check my phone often so I don't miss the messages. Is this stupid? Maybe, but I'm not going to install Google's closed source crap on a device that I carry almost everywhere. If that means I become a social pariah, then so be it.
      • cft 6y ago
        I think they should be forced to allow apps running in the background to connect to an arbitrary server, to subscribe to notifications
        • dathinab 6y ago
          Its kinda is possible (on some android setups) but unreliable. Most importantly your app (and server) needs to be build to be able to fall back to a 3rd party message broker. But the common fallback is to just sync messages from time to time in background if the app runs as it's "good enough" for the case Google is temporary down or not available or you are one of the (from the App POV) view people which de-googled their phone.
      • hutzlibu 6y ago
        "If that means I become a social pariah, then so be it." Sounds heroic, but maybe does not help anyone? And if you really cannot tolerate closed source, than what kind of hardware do you use? As far as I know, they are allmost all closed and locked. Pine64 is a fresh breeze, but they are also not free(nor stable) yet. My workaround is simply, that I have a mobile, where I can remove the batterie, then I know, it is turned off.
• SubiculumCode 6y ago
  Mattermost next? Or is Element different somehow?
  • diragon 6y ago
    It actually stands a chance, perhaps.
  • SahAssar 6y ago
    Not sure if it makes a difference in this case, but mattermost isn't federated.
• nickysielicki 6y ago
  A lot of people seem to believe that there’s much more to this than there really is. Google has hired a bunch of 28 year old kids in HR and PR, that never used Usenet, that never used IRC, that barely remember AIM, that had a smartphone before they had their own laptop, that don’t understand the internet or technology. And they’re the ones making these decisions. There aren’t rooms full of Google PMs and programmers and engineers debating the implications. It’s 3 or 4 kids in-between the ages of 24 and 34, and that room is increasingly technically illiterate, and increasingly unable to imagine an internet before (or after) FAANG hegemony. This isn’t Google being evil to protect advertising dollars, or to kill Matrix, etc. It’s google hiring young, unimaginative, uninteresting social justice warriors. We’ve taken for granted that most of the people working in FAANG have been using computers for longer than these companies existed. That’s no longer really the case, and the attitudes of these companies are going to continue to change further and further from the unique values that the industry used to represent. In ten years it’s going to be worse, and in 30 it’s going to be unrecognizable.
  • walrus01 6y ago
    If you want to get away from those sort of 28 year olds - go work in core engineering for an ISP. The sort of persons who are entrusted with admin access on the big, expensive, vitally critical Cisco and Juniper boxes that run a medium to large sized ISP are pretty much the opposite of the raised-on-shiny-GUI persons you describe. However I think it's unfair to say that people under age 40 are 'social justice warriors'. They've been raised in a bubble of superficial user interfaces and have never been forced to encounter the fundamental underpinnings of the software and Internet.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • swiley 6y ago
    TL;DR: Google has likely delegated policing everyone's PCs to a handful of incompetent children and that should make you feel less worried. Smartphones are bad. "Apps" are bad. OS vendors using their position to change public behavior is bad. (this last idea something the courts in most countries agree on.) You need to get this stuff out of your life, it's beyond coke levels of harmful.
• COGlory 6y ago
  F-Droid Link: Element (previously Riot.im) (Secure decentralised chat & VoIP. Keep your data safe from third parties.) - https://f-droid.org/packages/im.vector.app https://f-droid.org/packages/im.vector.app
  • ncmncm 6y ago
    By the way, "Foxy Droid" does the same job as F-Droid but is much less annoying. Available on F-Droid.
    • mackrevinack 6y ago
      i like g-droid as well since it lets you bookmark apps so you can check them out later
      • sundarurfriend 6y ago
        And the app search on G-Droid is so much better than the main F-Droid app.
    • berkes 6y ago
      Off topic, but since you brought it up: what is annoying about f-droid?
      • ncmncm 6y ago
        It shows all kinds of stuff unrelated to the thing you are trying to do, to the point of making it harder to do the thing.
  • readflaggedcomm 6y ago
    Aren't some Matrix servers, which Element can connect to, considered "free speech zones" where hate speech and misinformation propagates? If so, expect F-Droid to do the needful to Element like they have before[1]. [1] https://f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html https://f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html
• nolim1t 6y ago
  The fight has started.. Luckily theres other clients available too. Client diversity is important
• 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Just a reminder you can install the APK and there's nothing they can do about it. Not a friendly experience, but not insanely hard either.
  • swiley 6y ago
    Not if you're using outlook with certain configurations that require disabling sideloading. Also they're really torquing down on the API and making it harder and harder to build useful apps outside the play store. I'm not an android developer but my understanding is that notifications are starting to look much more like iOS for example.
• naebother 6y ago
  Private company they can do what they want.
• perryizgr8 6y ago
  Huh! That's unfortunate. But in the end it's Google's platform and they have the right to kick you out for any or without any reason and/or recourse. If Element doesn't like it they can just make their own Android, play store and sell billions of phones around the world. It's a non-issue.
  • orthecreedence 6y ago
    Agreed! This is just the free market in action. This is a good thing.
    • dathinab 6y ago
      > This is just the free market in action. It's not free marked at all. Free marked is about having a competition between companies where the user decides who wins by buying the best products. The concept of a free marked was invented before there had been massive marked limiting factors like "lock down" of digital devices and similar. Somehow a lot of people still take all the original arguments why a free marked is good but then use them to argue for a marked which is neither free nor has the marked dynamics anymore which make a free marked a potential "good" marked strategy. In the end a free marked needs to have proper competition. Weather that is limited by the government or by companies abusing a change in technological landscape which gives them powers which originally at best governments had doesn't matter, it's no longer a free marked at all and no of the reasons why it's supposedly good do uphold then.
      • throwaway3699 6y ago
        I'm think GP is missing an /s :)
        • orthecreedence 6y ago
          Actually not! I think capitalism always trends towards centralization of power. I went fishing for "actually, this isn't a free market because..." and caught me a big one.
• monadic3 6y ago
  Who cares if we can't dictate what the terms of phone usage are.
• chaganated 6y ago
  These actions have been so fast and furious and brazen that you have to wonder: They obviously see people as cattle, but are they right? Or, do they have an ace up their sleeve that makes the answer irrelevant?
• js4ever 6y ago
  It seems all those deplatforming started really recently with trump/parler and turned into a witch hunt. It's now totally out of control and we start to look like CCP
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • petre 6y ago
    I wish Google and Apple are going to be hit with fines and regulation in the EU because of this once the comissioners have better things to occupy themselves with other than the pandemic.
    • AmericanChopper 6y ago
      If you look at any legislation that’s been proposed to address this, in the EU or anywhere else, it hasn’t been anything that’s going to make the situation any better. Lots of governments around the world are very upset that these cartels have the ability to restrict people’s access to the internet without any oversight or due process. But that’s not because they think it’s harmful for peoples access to these services to be taken away without any oversight or due process, they just want to be the ones wielding that power.
      • golemiprague 6y ago
        They should be the ones wielding the power because they are elected and if we don't like their decision we can vote someone else in, we don't have any right to vote who runs Google. The whole thing is a slippery slope started by the left which they still support. Hopefully it will all crumble the same way the USSR did, but it might take time.
      • throwdbaaway 6y ago
        Exactly. If a chat service is banned in some authoritarian countries, that's the strongest signal that it is indeed secure.
• edrxty 6y ago
  It appears they've also removed Pattle, but Ditto and FluffyChat are still available at this time. Odd that they'd only remove half of the Matrix clients available...
  • ORYDRICA 6y ago
    Is it maybe because FluffyChat is developed by a German company, Famedly GmbH?
  • feanaro 6y ago
    Wasn't Pattle removed for a longer time? I know the developer stopped working on it some time ago.
• j_barbossa 6y ago
  While we have found a way to establish and execute rules in the real world (legislature and jurisdiction) we have completely forgotten that we need something like that in the digital world as well. And now a few VPs of Google and Apple dictate who's allowed to bring in their apps into their holy app store.
  • einpoklum 6y ago
    > While we have found a way to establish and execute rules in the real world You are assuming that states legislate primarily in the public interest. I disagree. Public pressure can influence legislation, but fundamental interests of ruling classes usually take precedent. > we have completely forgotten that we need something like that in the digital world as well. We have not "forgotten" something which is a claim, or opinion (and which I do not share).
• ORYDRICA 6y ago
  Check https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/ for alternatives. You cannot take down the matrix network by blocking one app.
• tannhaeuser 6y ago
  Right now, the only solution to this situation seems to be sticking to SMS and newer non-IP protocols extending and/or replacing it as a service offered in the regulated TelCo market (in EU at least, but practically in most places). Then mid-term extend regulations to IP- and web-based markets as well, forcing checks/balances, appeals, and an open ecosystem of alternative providers in place where there is feudalism right now. Won't work with FAANG providing services "for free"; that is, by bundling and ad-financed offerings. So bundling has to be regulated as well.
• GNU_James 6y ago
  Why do Americans hate freedom so damn much? Why?
• mkl95 6y ago
  Within a day, Google have removed 100k Robinhood reviews and suspended this application. I wonder if these arbitrary actions will become a daily thing soon.
  • toyg 6y ago
    They already have been, since the very first day of the Apple AppStore (and hence its copycat Play Store). But they typically hit smaller developers with no recourse. Occasionally they hit the “wrong” crowd and shit flies for a few days, until some bigwig goes “okay, I guess these particular cats deserve a pass, just approve and move on.” Google and Apple stores are like nightclub bouncers. If they don’t like you, you ain’t gonna dance. “Normies” don’t care until the bouncer picks on them.
    • jacquesm 6y ago
      Some normies simply don't like going to those particular nightclubs because it makes the owners even more powerful and puts money in their pockets.
• Thorentis 6y ago
  This is basically the last straw for me. The past week has made it perfectly clear that Big Tech will close the circle and protect their own. Anything that appears to be censorship resistant, that allows the little guy to get ahead and compete, or that allows individuals to have greater levels of privacy and freedom, will be shut down and de-platformed. As was predicted in 1948, "hate speech" has just become a smoke and mirrors term. Facebook and Discord used this excuse to deplatform WSB. Twitter uses this to deplatform people left, right, and center. And now Google is using it deplatform one of the few decentralised projects I had a lot of faith in.
  • eternalban 6y ago
    Wait until CBDCs roll out. Right now, it is your speech and communication. Tomorrow, it will be accessing your money. Then they will have their desired perfectly obedient population.
    • est31 6y ago
      I've thought CBDCs ensure the opposite? Currently if you have an uninsured account at a bank, and the bank goes bankrupt, your money is gone. With CBDCs it seems to me that the money is truly yours instead of in a currency pegged to the fiat but that can always break.
      • eternalban 6y ago
        I live in US and we have had FDIC as long as I remember. I'm not even sure there is such a thing as "uninsured account" in US, or if there are, why would anyone use such a bank. https://www.fdic.gov/ https://www.fdic.gov/ It's a simple equation to grok: if utility X is only available in a digitized form on a controlled and centralized platform, then that utility is subject to central controls. And as we see, these control mechanisms will inevitably require AI moderation to scale. You think things are bad when Google arbitrarily kicks you off gmail? Wait until it happens to your bank account. Who are you gonna call? Where are you going to go and speak out about it?
• pojntfx 6y ago
  One of the reasons I really like Element is the fact that it runs completely in the browser, no need to install a native app - which, lets be realistic, is really only a viable option (for the average consumer) if you submit to the proprietary App Store or Play Store. Sadly, Element Web is not yet responsive, but I hope that changes soon so that it can be finally free from the constraints of the constraints of proprietary native platforms like iOS and Android.
  • callahad 6y ago
    It's still early days, but https://hydrogen.element.io https://hydrogen.element.io works well on mobile
• unnouinceput 6y ago
  Quote: "Meanwhile, if it's urgent and you're comfortable installing unsigned APKs, you can grab the latest build from our CI at..." AFAIK you can still sign it even if you don't publish it via playstore
• okso 6y ago
  Doing this just a week before FOSDEM [1], a very large conference that will run online using Matrix, is scandalous. https://fosdem.org/2021/ https://fosdem.org/2021/
  • young_unixer 6y ago
    And Google is a sponsor.
  • jgtrosh 6y ago
    https://fosdem.org/2021/about/sponsors/#google https://fosdem.org/2021/about/sponsors/#google Uh oh
    • dest 6y ago
      The irony is high
    • ath92 6y ago
      It's almost as if Google is not one person but consists of many people with different opinions/interests
      • monadic3 6y ago
        Google is just Larry and Moe pullin' a fast one on Curly.
      • fauigerzigerk 6y ago
        It's almost as if these people didn't coordinate at all in spite of operating as part of the same corporation, enjoying protections such as limited liability. Google is not a subreddit.
  • Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
    This is far from ideal, but someone attending FOSDEM is surely able to download an .apk from official site of Element and install it?
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• einpoklum 6y ago
  Use F-Droid - An app repository ("store") for Free Software apps: https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/ Naturally, it has the Element app.
• arendtio 6y ago
  Does someone know why f-droid versions tend to be 'few versions behind'?
  • diragon 6y ago
    Push vs pull perhaps. F-droid packagers need to a) notice there's a newer version and b) implement the change of packaging a newer version. Plus whatever additional process they might have to keep things from breaking. Element's developers just upload a newer version to Play themselves as part of the release.
• alangibson 6y ago
  Something is being missed in these "Element isn't Parler because..." comments. Distinctions about client vs platform do not matter _at all_ to someone at Google headquarters. Content they find unacceptable is accessible, or it's not. Full stop. The FAANGs now have a strong incentive to boot anything and anyone making objectionable content available in any way because that's the way public sentiment has shifted. It's really incredible to see how quickly the deplatforming chickens came home to roost. We're now shooting ourselves in the feet at Internet speed.
  • frivoal 6y ago
    That's still weird though. By that logic, they should ban all web browsers, and mail clients… Content they find unacceptable is definitely accessible through those. Banning all applications that enable access to non-moderated decentralized content is simply not compatible with a phone being a smart phone.
    • cma 6y ago
      Apple already does, no real third party browsers. Objectionable content has to go through their webview.
• cabirum 6y ago
  Why, when an app is "suspended", Play Store shows 404 as if it never existed? Can't Google display the app page with some status banner and a reason for suspension while disabling install button, or allow installing last known "approved" version?
  • dunefox 6y ago
    Of course they can. They don't want to.
  • guerrilla 6y ago
    It's how they implement the memory hole.
  • croes 6y ago
    “Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.”
  • orthecreedence 6y ago
    > Why, when an app is "suspended", Play Store shows 404 as if it never existed? It's the ever more popular historical revisionism movement.
• unethical_ban 6y ago
  Don't forget that F-Droid is a thing, and Android still has at least that much freedom - to install your own software. Who would have thought 30 years ago someone would be saying "People can run any code they want on their computer" as a shocking thing.
  • oji0hub 6y ago
    Installing software outside of play store is technically possible, but if something contains enough hurdles, most people won't do it, which results in no users and a meaningless platform.
    • imhoguy 6y ago
      It is not meaningless, but agreed not something for mass use yet. Similarly like 30-40 years ago with personal computing, now also geeks start the paradigm shift into privacy-aware computing.
      • corty 6y ago
        I guess at some point Google will close the F-Droid loophole in Android and only allow installations through the Playstore anymore. You know, for security reasons... winkwink Maybe the real reason will be pressure from the government to hurt the ones like Huawei a little more, maybe it will be the need to squeeze more money, or maybe the need for censorship because those evil alternative app-platforms allow whatever unwanted stuff.
        • brmgb 6y ago
          > I guess at some point Google will close the F-Droid loophole in Android and only allow installations through the Playstore anymore. Google standing in Europe is already really shaky. They keep taking fines after fines for abuse of their dominant position. That won't last forever. If they close the ability for other stores to exist, the best case scenario is the EU giving them a huge fine and forcing them to go back. Worst case is being force to split Android out of the main company. Google knows that which is why they will not do it.
• erik_kemp 6y ago
  Sigh. These kind of things, as well as the Signal outage, are not helping efforts to help people switch to better messaging alternatives. It nicely illustrates the centralisation of power though.
• alangibson 6y ago
  It's been remarkable to watch the sad old "first they came for them..." saga play out in real time over the past few years. At first there were just a few, heavily downvoted, voices saying that Twitter shouldn't be deplatforming obnoxious cretins on grounds of free speech principles. And now here we are with open source chat clients getting removed from the app store. I know alot of smart people will try to argue Its Not The Same Thing, but I'm with the side that says there's a direct line through these events.
• JBiserkov 6y ago
  >in the interim there's https://f-droid.org/en/packages/im.vector.app/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/im.vector.app/ but it's a few versions behind. Honest question: Why is the F-Droid option a few versions behind?
  • boudin 6y ago
    The release process can be quite slow on the f-droid official repository as the signing step is done on an offline machine manually. https://f-droid.org/en/docs/Security_Model https://f-droid.org/en/docs/Security_Model
• Uhrheber 6y ago
  Any reason why the F-Droid version is behind the official one? I mean, you should now have learned that you can't rely on one single distribution channel.
  • 153791098c 6y ago
    The same reason that software is outdated in many GNU/Linux repositories. F-droid is a repository that builds all software from source on a different schedule than every individual application developer, the google play store is just a platform where the application developer uploads the binary.
• GlitchMr 6y ago
  I believe that removal of Element from Google Play Store is a violation of EU regulation 2019/1150. Element has legal entities in Britain (which is affected by Brexit but has similar law) and France. Google is LEGALLY required to provide a justification for removal 30 days before application removal. Anyway, you may try contacting Google using EU regulation 2019/1150 violation procedure, see https://support.google.com/merchants/answer/9969397 https://support.google.com/merchants/answer/9969397 for more information. This may be more effective than using a regular contact procedure, as it would show Google that you are aware of this regulation and they are unlikely to win. Note that I'm not a lawyer.
  • yorwba 6y ago
    > Google is LEGALLY required to provide a justification for removal 30 days before application removal. You mean this? 2. Where a provider of online intermediation services decides to terminate the provision of the whole of its online intermediation services to a given business user, it shall provide the business user concerned, at least 30 days prior to the termination taking effect, with a statement of reasons for that decision on a durable medium. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32019R1150&from=EN#d1e814-57-1 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... Firstly, I'm not sure whether they really terminated "the provision of the whole of its online intermediation services" or just suspended the one app store listing. Secondly, there are exceptions: 4. The notice period in paragraph 2 shall not apply where a provider of online intermediation services: (a) is subject to a legal or regulatory obligation which requires it to terminate the provision of the whole of its online intermediation services to a given business user in a manner which does not allow it to respect that notice period; or (b) exercises a right of termination under an imperative reason pursuant to national law which is in compliance with Union law; (c) can demonstrate that the business user concerned has repeatedly infringed the applicable terms and conditions, resulting in the termination of the provision of the whole of the online intermediation services in question. In cases where the notice period in paragraph 2 does not apply, the provider of online intermediation services shall provide the business user concerned, without undue delay, with a statement of reasons for that decision on a durable medium. So it all comes down to what their reasons for the suspension were. EDIT: Just saw this update: https://mobile.twitter.com/element_hq/status/1355465650114846720 https://mobile.twitter.com/element_hq/status/135546565011484... So they revealed their reasons within 12 hours, which I'm going to file under "without undue delay". (But did they use a "durable medium"?)
• MrsPeaches 6y ago
  Looks like it was indeed due to abusive content: https://mobile.twitter.com/element_hq/status/1355465650114846720 https://mobile.twitter.com/element_hq/status/135546565011484...
  • croes 6y ago
    Than it would be logical to suspend all browsers too.
    • cheph 6y ago
      And all messengers that support E2E encryption. I just wrote some abusive content on WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger in end to end encrypted chats so I expect Google to remove those now also. And I used google chrome to access 4chan. So google must ban google chrome also.
• mackrevinack 6y ago
  at least they are not called 'riot' anymore. i can imagine a lot of people might have thought it was an app for organising riots or something
  • suizi 6y ago
    A name which Google isn't familiar with (Riot, as opposed to Element) is a possible reason they were suspended in the first place.
• ksec 6y ago
  Every Single Day I am leaning more towards non-App Store distribution model.
• aabbcc1241 6y ago
  I feel like the "App Stores" are kinna on war with the minority recently
• bsd44 6y ago
  I think all this App banning stuff will fuel the interest of open source platforms like Pinephone.
• ognarb 6y ago
  Now I have one reason more to continue to develop a matrix client for Plasma Mobile.
  • elkos 6y ago
    If I get to work with matrix and element io plasma mobile I'm ordering a device next day.
    • ognarb 6y ago
      NeoChat does work on Plasma Mobile but it is still missing a few features to be production ready. https://carlschwan.eu/2020/12/23/announcing-neochat-1.0-the-kde-matrix-client/ https://carlschwan.eu/2020/12/23/announcing-neochat-1.0-the-... I'm currently working on encryption support in the base library: https://github.com/quotient-im/libQuotient/pull/443 https://github.com/quotient-im/libQuotient/pull/443 and once this is done the other big missing feature are notifications.
      • COGlory 6y ago
        Thank you for your work on that
• williamonill 6y ago
  Perhaps a little cynical but what would stop Google from classifying praising other search engines as "hate speech" and deleting any comments in this direction from their platforms? And when "hate speech" is just a little too absurd then they just classify it as "security risk" and ban it as well.
• teekert 6y ago
  I wonder what stuff like this does for the French government who rely on Matrix (and presumably element?). Sure they have their own servers and maybe another client.
• alangibson 6y ago
  > We've had contact from Google confirming that the suspension is due to abusive content somewhere on Matrix If this takedown stands, this effectively means that all distributed message systems are banned from the Play store.
  • croes 6y ago
    All browsers too. I've seen a lot of shit it that so called internet.
  • cheph 6y ago
    Does not have to be distributed, can be any E2E encrypted also. Signal should be banned, WhatsApp, Facebook messenger: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/contact/takedown https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/cont... Report them all, if you can't find objectionable content on those, write it to yourself, screenshot it and report the apps.
• ulzeraj 6y ago
  Ironically this move finally made me to consider Matrix. I'm thinking about spinning a server on a non FAANG provider like Vultr or Linode and setting IM services bridges from there. Nowadays I use lots of different communicators to talk to different people and most of these apps track me. If I setup a Matrix server somewhere that allows me to use those networks without having their software installed on my devices that will not only be convenient but also improve my privacy. Not to mention the Matrix network and protocol that can be used to do fun stuff. Is Dendrite ready for use? I don't have a lot of memory available and I heard Synapse is kinda heavy on resources.
  • alfyboy 6y ago
    I'm in the process of setting up a Matrix homeserver myself. It seems like there are some missing features. From their github: > Is Dendrite stable? Mostly, although there are still bugs and missing features. If you are a confident power user and you are happy to spend some time debugging things when they go wrong, then please try out Dendrite. If you are a community, organisation or business that demands stability and uptime, then Dendrite is not for you yet - please install Synapse instead. > Does Dendrite support push notifications? No, not yet. This is a planned feature. > Does Dendrite support application services/bridges? Possibly - Dendrite does have some application service support but it is not well tested. Please let us know by raising a GitHub issue if you try it and run into problems.
    • sigwinch28 6y ago
      Use Synapse.
    • ulzeraj 6y ago
      I got it running relatively easy. Lots of client functionality from Element do not work and the shared secret request between devices timeouts. I also find hard to debug because of all the errors related to broken federated servers. One thing that I recommend is to set "disable_federation: true" until you get some acceptable functionality before enabling it again.
  • MayeulC 6y ago
• onebot 6y ago
  One take away that this has on me, is that with Google and Apple controlling content on mobile phones, it might be impossible to have a truly decentralized application. I believe that Apple should be required to allow 3rd party installs if the user so chooses. If there is an example of monopolistic behaviour this is one for sure.
• alvatar 6y ago
  This just made me install Element right away and finally get away from Signal (and of course Whatssap) and bring as many people with me as possible
• Havoc 6y ago
  >suspension is due to abusive content somewhere on Matrix; we're working with them to explain how Element works What a joke. Does google remove their own messenger platform and email app too when someone uses them to send something naughty?
  • cheph 6y ago
    Report it, and report their browser, and all E2E encrypted messaging apps (Signal, WhatsApp, Facebook): https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/contact/takedown https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/cont...
• acatsdream 6y ago
  You can use fdroid to install it. Maintained there by Matrix itself as it is free software.
• someonehere 6y ago
  So what happens if people start flagging Google chat products as abusive? Will Google pull its own apps? Probably a big fat no. I was so close to proposing moving off of Slack and onto something like Element/Matrix. Unfortunately this will be a harder sell to my management considering Google or Apple can just shut down any chat client businesses use. This is ridiculous.
• jariel 6y ago
  This notion that your business can evaporate without notice overnight has to stop. We absolutely need clear legislation on this, this is causing harm and the power asymmetry is monumental. Also - consider the conflicts of interests: Google Apps would never, ever get treated the same way. I think it's time to separate app distribution from the devices themselves.
• TimMeade 6y ago
  I have never used element, but i just went to the apple app store and downloaded it before they strike it also. it was on my "when i get around to it" list. Well seems like now is the time to get around to it. Seem that i do that more and more often these days.
• Causality1 6y ago
  It's incredible that they still host web browsers and email clients with these kinds of policies in place.
• fblp 6y ago
  Hi there, if you're a small business impacted by this please comment how below, i can raise the issue with congressional representatives via the national small business association. I've seen a couple posts about this already. From my perspective, decentralized, free and open source software enables and supports a range of small businesses. The replacements for tools like Element are big-tech tools ranging from Whatsapp (Facebook) to Slack (Salesforce).
• GNU_James 6y ago
  Tutorial for newfriends on how to join Matrix federation. https://glowers.club/wiki/doku.php?id=wiki:newfriends https://glowers.club/wiki/doku.php?id=wiki:newfriends
• gameswithgo 6y ago
  Quit taking part in monopoly stores
• nabla9 6y ago
  Instead of putting some money into good service in two sided markets, Google is fine with automatized or low effort curation. High visibility post in Hacker News seems to be how errors can be corrected. Monopoly power in action. There is little pressure to fix this.
• seaourfreed 6y ago
  Facebook & Twitter found that they must trap people there. The flood to Parler that caused Parler to the top of Apple/Android App Stores made them block free speach. Matrix app. Discussions on what to do about Telegram / Signal. Blocking Parlor. Citizens can only challenge the establishment around a rigged economy if citizens have a place for free speech. FB/Twitter enable censorship.
• danaugrs 6y ago
  Why is Element suspended but not Signal? Is Signal compromised?
• mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Remember, Competitors on youtube do this all the time to take down competitive content. E.g. false flags of inappropriate content or copyright to take down videos or channels. This is a good situation for big players, because there will always exist a real or fake excuse to take down any potentially competitive threat. Also, unfortunately this system aligns with the goals of our political system that wants to have a one stop shop for surveillance of ‘law breakers’.
• pimeys 6y ago
  Oh wow, this chat has blown up with messages and I doubt anybody will see this message at this point, but here we go. During these weeks of being at home and having lots of free time after work, I've been doing _projects_. For a while, I've been reading how people rant about Matrix always on HN, and I finally decided to suck it, install my own home server and try it out by myself. The installation for sure requires a bit of understanding about DNS and you kind of (if you want things to be simpler) need two servers: one for your root domain and other for your matrix server. If you nail these two things correctly, can wait a bit for the DNS records to spread out in the network, you'll get the matrix federation working quite nicely. I highly recommend using some of the automated tools, such as the ansible playbook[0] to help you out maintaining the server. It makes setting up the bridges for other chat platforms very easy. I have to say, having one application for all my chats. The same interface, no need to install five apps to talk with people, this all is so nice. It's definitely worth the trouble, even when with Synapse you need a bit more powerful server, like four gigs of RAM is a good minimum for a server and all the bridges. Now we only need to have an easy way to install the clients, so we can help our not so technologically advanced friends to join. I think Google knows this; how in 2021 people are forming their own communities, outside of the power of the big corporations. Now Matrix is quite technology oriented, it feels like IRC back in the 90s which I really enjoy!
  • afkqs 6y ago
    > I highly recommend using some of the automated tools, such as the ansible playbook[0] to help you out maintaining the server You forgot to link the Ansible playbook you're talking about :)
    • pimeys 6y ago
      Of course I did https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy
• Ericson2314 6y ago
  I am going to install Element with F-droid or manual APK load on principle now. Fuck this.
• zupreme 6y ago
  This is an unfortunate example of a core danger of the app store (or Play Store, in this case) business model. With devices, by default, configured to make it difficult to install apps directly, the store becomes the single point of failure. And we engineers know, all too well, the dangers of single points of failure in any business-critical solution. What well-run fortune 500 company, or government agency, would fully embrace and build a key business process around apps which can be made to vanish on the whim of an Apple or Google employee who takes issue with how someone fully disconnected from your organization (and maybe even in a different country) uses the same app you have rolled out to thousands of staff members? In my opinion, the next logical step in “decentralization” of technology is to give mobile device users the same application control, logging, and monitoring powers over their devices that desktop, server, and notebook users have always enjoyed. Does anyone else here see another logical path?
• kgin 6y ago
  This seems like a perfect use case for a PWA
• amelius 6y ago
  Question: did this action "only" stop the sales of apps, or did it also break already-installed or even running apps?
• lousken 6y ago
  would be interested to hear from googlers what's going on
• Sunspark 6y ago
  A thought.. the Samsung Galaxy app store never removed the game Fortnite when Google and Apple both did for financial reasons. Perhaps Element could also become one of the apps there.. there's a lot of Samsung devices out there in the world.
• iamleppert 6y ago
  Google invested billions into the development of Android when no one else stepped up to do it. They are fully within their rights to protect their investment and fully control the Android ecosystem to their own benefit.
  • bigsteve90 6y ago
    The corporate boot licker comment as expected. There’s always one, “but, think of the mega corporation that has a monopoly!!!!” comment.
• mchusma 6y ago
  Google Play Store takedown and appeals process is so embarrisingly bad and so easy to fix. 1) give people notice and the chance to respond in most cases before the takedown or put the app back up if an appeal is filed until the appeal is reviewed. 2) allow attachments on the appeals form. They only allow 1,000 characters, which is just not enough for most cases. 3) staff the team so you can reply within 48 hours. Currently, the average seems to be about 10 days. 4) Have a way to see the takedown reason I'm the developer portal. If you appeal, see the appeal was received and is in process. None of these things take materially more resources from google. Some junior PM should be able to make this better, and it would save google a lot of antitrust concerns. Something like 1M a year would probably do it.
• elkos 6y ago
  The Element app is back in the Google Play Store: https://twitter.com/element_hq/status/1355677158174322688 https://twitter.com/element_hq/status/1355677158174322688
• davidinosauro 6y ago
  I wonder, would there be value in publishing a separate incarnation of Element that does not provide any default Matix servers? It would require you to type the server URL or follow a link from the browser
• outloudvi 6y ago
  Good to see Element back. I want to mention that Fedilab [1] and Subway Tooter [2], two famous apps used for Mastodon (or ActivityPub), a decentralized social network, had also been taken down by Google Play with the same reason. 1. https://qoto.org/@freemo/104765288863293481 https://qoto.org/@freemo/104765288863293481 2. https://mastodon.juggler.jp/@tateisu/104761652569820793 https://mastodon.juggler.jp/@tateisu/104761652569820793
• sli 6y ago
  The fact that Google needs to have Matrix explained to them is, frankly, appalling. I would expect an organization the size of Google would have someone there who's familiar with these not-uncommon federated networks. Or, you know, just stuff that's trendy in general within the tech crowd.
  • suizi 6y ago
    Google is so big that one head doesn't know what the other is doing. Some people probably do know what Matrix is, but that doesn't mean the right people do. It's still a big problem that Google isn't even making the effort to investigate big apps on their own platform to get familiar with them (before letting the AI loose on them).