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Microsoft intercepting Firefox, Chrome installation on Windows 10 Insider build
- __warlord__ 8y agoWow, this is a new low, even for Microsoft
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y agoOn the contrary. As those of us who lived through the 90s keep trying to tell you youngsters, this is Microsoft's default operating level of low.
- ionised 8y agoThis isn't even close to as bad as some of the shit they've pulled.
- BrockSamson 8y agoSeems Microsoft learned nothing from the anti-trust cases of the 90's
- weliketocode 8y agoPerhaps the opposite. Seems they've learned to push forward and never again fall behind.
- peterkelly 8y agoTheir punishment wasn't exactly severe
- BrockSamson 8y agoYou do have a very good point
- blackbrokkoli 8y agoWell they did learn to sell a better image convincing even the ever-cynical HackerNews apparently, looking at the threads of last months.
- pabloski 8y agoTrue. Personally I didn't fall for their show and I have continued not to use many of their technologies. .Net Core? No thanks, I have Go, Java, Racket, even Haskell.
- techntoke 8y agoHacker News has been plagued with PR companies pushing the content it wants you to see for some time.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- liftbigweights 8y agoYou mean when microsoft used their dominant OS position to drive Netscape out of existence? When IE went from 0% browser market share to over 90%? It seems to me they learned a lot. That using monopoly advantage to attack the competition works like a charm and that anti-trust cases are toothless. Microsoft essentially "won" the anti-trust case since they weren't broken up.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y agoRight, apart from the fact that this was ~20 years ago and they've been losing marketshare ever since, and completely failed at mobile. They're still attacking the competition but they're not doing a very good job of it.
- api 8y agoThey learned to contribute more to political campaigns?
- shaqbert 8y agoThe battle for control of the user. The pressure to create/preserve market share seems to be rising. When e.g. you look how aggressively Google is trying to switch me to Chrome from my Firefox on all of their properties, a new low was set. But from my insider buddies at Google, that strategy is working well. This here from MSFT dials it up another notch. With the anti-trust cases in the EU, they probably will be able to geo target this feature so that from the EU all will be fine and dandy, but the rest of the world will get scared into switching to Edge.
- JohnTHaller 8y agoI wish Mozilla would include a default content blocker to block Google's attempts to steal Firefox users. But then I also wish Windows blocked automated Google Chrome installs that steal default browser included as bundleware with free antivirus apps, Java, etc. I'm tired of walking a parent through uninstalling Google Chrome (that they have no idea how it was installed) and getting Firefox set as their default browser again.
- anyzen 8y agoJust to show how absurd such practice is - if Mozilla wanted to do the same, they should intercept requests for Google.com and Bing.com, advising users to use Mozilla's search engine instead. I doubt Google would keep paying them if they did that though.
- wongarsu 8y agoWhich is the real problem with Mozilla being dependent on money from Google. Google can do whatever they want against Firefox, but Mozilla is very limited in its response because they can't risk upsetting Google too much.
- rrdharan 8y agoI don't Mozilla is limited: https://www.alexkras.com/firefox-launches-marketing-offensive-against-chrome/ https://www.alexkras.com/firefox-launches-marketing-offensiv...
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoIn threads about github etc, many were claiming Microsoft are a completely different, and better company, with a fine open approach to business these days. Seems nothing much has changed in their approach in 30 years.
- egeozcan 8y agoMaybe we should stop evaluating companies like we evaluate people.
- RyanZAG 8y agoCompanies are just people though - the guys in charge of decisions are the ones we're ultimately evaluating. That the left hand of the company doesn't know what the right hand of the company is doing isn't much of an excuse, as ultimately the buck stops at the executive and board positions. There's no way a decision like this one didn't get approval from the top layers of the company as it no doubt had to go through different levels of legal, product and everything in between.
- sureaboutthis 8y agoOn the side, I've owned some chain restaurants for 32 years. Mine have always been noted as friendlier, cleaner, fresher and all that. I like to say that it's cause it runs downhill and I care about the customer experience. Three years ago, I sold one of those restaurants inside a mall while still owning one just two blocks away. People from the mall come into this restaurant. Just yesterday someone told me that they hated the mall one. "They're just so mean to everyone!" They did not know I was the owner.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- s_kilk 8y ago> Companies are just people though Eh, this is like saying that people are just collections of cells. It doesn't tell you much about the high-level behavior observed.
- mjw1007 8y agoGood to see the new trustworthy Microsoft in action. Coming soon: github.com "best viewed in Edge".
- 1_800_UNICORN 8y agoI think my head might explode if I ever see that in reality.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ekianjo 8y agoBetter, they might end up blocking other user agents, or give specific features you can only use with Edge. They love doing that.
- bootlooped 8y agoI don't think they'll end up doing that for the same reason that Google didn't put the Dart VM in Chrome. Nobody wants to be the one to start the nuclear war.
- sli 8y agoGoogle has done this before. When they blocked Hangouts in non-Chrome browsers, spoofing your User Agent would allow it to load and, probably predictably since I'm making this comment, Hangouts worked absolutely fine in Firefox. Not sure if it still works these days, but I don't use Hangouts anymore. There's also the whole Shadow DOM v0 stuff with YouTube that more or less artificially slows down rendering in non-Chrome browsers. Google is just more subtle about it.
- icelancer 8y agoI have never had this problem with Hangouts in Firefox. Hangouts has a million bugs on its own, but it works similarly poorly in Chrome and Firefox and has for a long time as far as I can tell.
- tartrate 8y agoWhat are the differences on this matter between the European Union competition law and the United States antitrust law?
- titzer 8y agoThings are moving so fast that companies know they can run from any lawsuits faster than they can be constructed. And yes, lawsuits are huge deals that require a lot of preparation, especially if initiated by the FTC/similar. And there isn't much appetite for regulation coming from Washington. Get ready for madness to increase.
- jfig 8y agoWould Google allow edge on a Chromebook? Microsoft has fallen in the market-share of OSs, can no longer be considered monopolist move. But yes, it's a new low, there was never a "new Microsoft" just better PR.
- Un1corn 8y agoChromebooks can only install web apps, no? Then it's not like they ban other browsers, they doesn't run any other non-web software. Maybe it's possible to run Firefox through the new Linux apps option they added?
- bestnameever 8y agoI can install Android and Linux app's on my chromebook Firefox linux app works fine too.
- pritambaral 8y ago> Microsoft has fallen in the market-share of OSs, can no longer be considered monopolist move. That's not how anti-trust works. Just because a player does not hold as much of a market they used to, does not mean they do not have a monopoly or cannot abuse it. Microsoft absolutely has a monopoly on the desktop OS market. And even without that monopoly this is abuse. With monopoly, this becomes abuse of their power in addition to being abuse of their users.
- philipov 8y agoEvery time someone mentions anti-trust, someone else comes in and starts claiming it's not really a monopoly, so antitrust doesn't apply. The thing is, market manipulation doesn't require monopoly power: an excessive difference of scale between the largest and smallest participants in a market is enough. For example, the consumer choice feedback loop breaks down when scale gets large enough that market signals from individual decisions are smaller than the amplitude of the noise, making it easy to neutralize them with marketing. We are heading in a direction where market breakdown occurs long before monopoly power, and cartel-like behavior is more likely. The largest players are so large they have more incentive to cooperate to keep everyone else down, while maintaining only nominal competition with each other. That doesn't mean anti-trust is no longer relevant, but that people arguing for it need to revise their position. Antitrust has never been about monopolies, but about abuse of power in the market. It was only a historical coincidence that that lined up with monopolies when the total economy was smaller. Corporations have now become so large that market failure begins long before monopolies, and our trust-busting strategies need to adapt to that.
- robin_reala 8y agoApple do it too: if you run Firefox or Chrome on a new macOS install a notification appears trying to sell you on the idea of Safari.
- swebs 8y agoUbuntu doesn't mind at all if I change my browser. It even offers several different browsers in its package manager. Oh, and it doesn't spy on me.
- neilsimp1 8y agoTo be fair, Ubuntu does send usage data to Canonical, unlike some other distros. Whether or not that counts as "spying" to you is another question.
- jaimex2 8y agoI thought it asks you to opt-in when you install?
- addicted 8y agoYou can disable that very easily. And as far as I remember when I upgraded to Ubuntu 18.04 on my VM, it asked me whether I was ok with sending anonymous usage data (I believe the default choice was yes which is not ideal but was easy enough to turn off).
- Flimm 8y agoI think the mods should modify the title to indicate that this applies only to the insider build (so far).
- cptskippy 8y agoShould they? You're technically correct but... 1) All the Microsoft haters are going to latch on to this and cite it as an example of how truly evil is regardless. 2) It might stir the pot enough to encourage Microsoft to reconsider.
- admax88q 8y agoSo we should be intentionally misleading because it might rile people up to take action that we want? Almost like how Fox News has intentionally misleading news to rile up conservatives?
- cptskippy 8y agoIsn't becoming hostile and outraged the norm these days as response to just about anything you disagree with?
- Dylan16807 8y ago> 1) All the Microsoft haters are going to latch on to this and cite it as an example of how truly evil is regardless. I don't understand. Why should this not be cited? They shipped this code to their customers. A limited release doesn't mean it unhappened.
- cptskippy 8y agoThose customers signed up for it. It wasn't a random sampling. It's similar to running a Firefox Nightly or being part of an open Beta. Microsoft's Insider program is an opt in where you get to try out potential features. There's a history of features being pulled from the channel, their Sets feature was pulled in June.
- pmorici 8y agoIs the reason this matters to these companies because of the built-in search providers and the money that comes from guiding users to a particular search engine through those defaults?
- ndespres 8y agoCould have a lot to do with ecosystem adoption. A Windows 10 user could get used to Chrome and its apps and plugins, and thus pave the way for a Chromebook purchase over a PC with Windows preinstalled the next time they're shopping for a new computer.
- userbinator 8y agoWhen I see things like this, it makes me wonder how they detect a specific installer, or if it's just something as mundane as hooking writes to change the default HTML file association. Still, the blatant advertising is repulsive. No, Edge is not faster than Dillo or NetSurf ;-)
- fiiv 8y agoCould it perhaps be done with executable signing? If an installer is signed as "Mozilla" perhaps, you might know you have a Thunderbird or Firefox install.
- cm2187 8y agoAnd then if you install chrome and don't see the edge pop up, you start to worry that maybe your msi has the wrong signature and may have been tempered with!
- majewsky 8y agoQuick guesses: - window title - certificate that signed the executable - the "downloaded from the internet" flag that IE and Edge set on downloaded files on the NTFS level (the one that causes the "Do you really want to run this program downloaded from the internet?" one-time confirmation modal)
- jowsie 8y agoIs this really so different to what Windows 10 has always done though? When you run Chrome/FireFox for the first time, it will tell you that Edge is amazing now and that you should consider using it instead. It seems they're just showing the recommendation earlier now.
- icebraining 8y agoOh, wow, didn't know about those (still on Win7 on my gaming desktop). I really don't know how people can stand all these notifications, I can barely stand the actually useful ones.
- bovermyer 8y agoI just have them turned off, no big deal.
- Skrillex 8y agoI was going to say this. It seems no different to me than when was setting up a Win10 installation and searched "Firefox" on Google. It injected something to the effect of "Edge is the superior browser" into the page.
- Macha 8y agoThis seems to happen in Bing, but can't see it happening in Google in a quick test (not even for chrome's benefit)
- everyone 8y agoRemember the quaint old times when the very last vestiges of anti-trust still existed in the US and MS got in trouble for this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
- zeusk 8y agoLol, Google does this on every site they own since like 2008
- OnlyRepliesToBS 8y agoboth complicit then
- chillingeffect 8y agoI have a laptop with windows on it for ONE program: Fusion360, which apparently does not run on Wine at this time. Windows 10 is so much worse than Windows 7. it's become, like a "phone," a personal consumption terminal. I remember when my old job blocked my installation of Tor. "Unwanted software detected." Why wouldn't a company want people browsing with Tor? The surveillance is increasing. Not as bad as China, but I hope I go to the grave with something more positive to say than "not as bad as China."
- yyx 8y agoFusion360 got minimal CAD working in browser recently, so there's hope.
- moviuro 8y ago> Why wouldn't a company want people browsing with Tor? You're supposed to be working on your work machine and "IT teams know best". Tor is usually a big red flag that your machine is attempting to evade corporate surveillance, which means that you're actively exfiltrating data or that you've been infected by something bad. Sure, you probably don't want Google to know that you're studying the market for a specialized piece of software/solution. But Management doesn't care, so just use the Incognito Window, and be happy...
- cptskippy 8y ago> Windows 10 is so much worse than Windows 7. it's become, like a "phone," a personal consumption terminal. How have the added convenience features added to Windows 10 that do make it more accessible like a phone, equate to a reduction in your ability to work on it? I use Windows 7 as my primary workstation and I am constantly annoyed by the rough edges. I'm looking forward to my company migrating me to Windows 10. Bluetooth support in Windows 7 is horrid. The stack is proprietary to the vendor and device support is unstable at best. Intel provides proprietary drivers to Lenovo but doesn't change the Device IDs so Windows Update tries to install the bog standard Intel Drivers. Their proprietary drivers don't support Bluetooth 1.0 devices and their standard ones don't support A2DP. While the Win 7 Startmenu's layout is ideal, the implementation is crap. Pinned Apps and the quick access flyouts are the last thing to load (upwards of a minute after logging in). The search prioritizes documents over Apps and Control Panel so you're twiddling your thumbs waiting if you search for "Add remove programs". File Explorer can't make up it's mind if it wants you to use Favorites or Libraries more. It enumerates Network Devices in the Navigation Pane just cause. The Libraries in the Navigation Pane doesn't show all of the libraries you have setup, it gleefully shows Videos and Pictures which I'm pretty sure no one has ever used but leaves out Documents and OneDrive. Ever tell your laptop to shutdown or hibernate, waited for desktop to fade away to the throbber screen, then shut the lid? That's always fun because when you open it up later it wakes up from sleep and finishes shutting down or hibernating.
- codemusings 8y agoWhat I don't understand is how companies with hundreds of deployments are still fine with crap like this? You can't disable updates. Computers are rebooted without asking. It's ridiculous.
- dhimes 8y agoMy guess is that for a fee you can avoid this shit.
- mavhc 8y agoYour standard Windows 10 options are Pro: Free but with ads, or Enterprise: Pay yearly to be able to remove ads
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- drbawb 8y ago>Your standard Windows 10 options are Pro . . . Oh how quaint. Do you have a Ryzen CPU? If so you're leaving performance on the table, because core complexes are internally implemented as NUMA nodes. Windows 10 Pro does not ship with a NUMA aware scheduler. If you want that you're looking at $300[1] for Windows 10 Pro for Workstations. -- Personally I would not consider Pro a "standard" option since it doesn't work w/ ~40%[2] of new CPUs sold. [1]: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/windows-10-pro-for-workstations/dg7gmgf0dw9s https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/windows-10-pro-for-worksta... [2]: https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Intel-AMD-CPU-Market-Share_3.png https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Intel-AM...
- baybal2 8y agoIt looks to me, they are getting desperate
- eitland 8y agoYep. I wish they'd rather lobbied the correct instances to punish Google for abusively pushing Chrome instead. If this goes through that will be a whole lot harder to do with a straight face :-/
- blackbrokkoli 8y agoRemember getting downvoted on Hackernews for pointing out that you don't trust their new image of "openness" and what not a month ago? People praising the new line of the new CEO and analysing that there would be nothing to fear from Microsoft anymore (github contret) - That didn't age too well...
- pjmlp 8y agoI trust Google less than Microsoft, for example.
- Spooky23 8y agoI would put them on the same pedestal. I deal with Microsoft a lot. They are back to 90s Microsoft mode. You should be skeptical of anything they say.
- pjmlp 8y agoMe too, given that a big part of my job is done on MS stack. Not all of us had a problem with 90s Microsoft mode. Every time I have to deal with Android development chores I miss MS tooling.
- Spooky23 8y agoFrom a technical side, 90s Microsoft was great. From a business/trust side, not so much.
- intern4tional 8y agoExamples please? You're just making some unsubstantiated claim.
- kgwxd 8y agoWouldn't it be nice to have software you didn't have to trust?
- ekianjo 8y ago
- cm2187 8y agoDoes that happen for unattended installation too (chocolatey)?
- techntoke 8y agoYes, on first launch it prompts you to change but instead suggests that you use Edge.
- pulse7 8y agoIf this lands, they will get another x billion dollar fine from the EU. Looks like the fine needs to be set higher...
- wjoe 8y agoDoes Windows still give you the popup with a choice of browsers to install in the EU? I remember seeing it some years ago, but since then I've only used Windows a few times with a business version in a VM, so not sure if that's still present. Seems like if they were forced to do that, there's no way they would get away with this, but I'm not sure if that ruling still applies.
- shakna 8y agoThey were fine 561 million euros for letting that lapse in 2013. Windows 10 still has N variants for Europe to comply with those rules.
- _pmf_ 8y agoTsk, tsk ... did we catch someone falling back into his old behavioral patterns?
- Piskvorrr 8y agoBack? Never left them, it merely improved its PR efforts.
- snarfy 8y agoNobody is going to give a crap about Edge until it is an open source project like Firefox and Chromium. Releasing Chakra is not enough.
- drb91 8y agoLike releasing Chromium is enough? Seems like a double standard to me.
- techntoke 8y agoChromium is great and everything works... even Mozilla's old CEO and JavaScript creator switched Brave to Chromium. Not that it matters what their old CEO does, given his history.
- techntoke 8y agoBut Microsoft is supposed to be this new hip amazing open source company, that now gives you .NET Core on Linux to build inferior applications with so you can complain about Linux being slow.
- dbbk 8y agoWhat difference does Edge being open source or not make to... anyone? How would that make anyone more interested?
- Nursie 8y agoThis has anti-trust written all over it, again.
- pjmlp 8y agoIf only Linux users would pay for desktop software, maybe we could have a Year of Desktop Linux someday, instead we got Android and ChromeOS with their stores. Right now is it not worthy to build a business selling desktop software to Linux, unless we are talking about enterprises, movie studios and a few other niche markets that migrated from UNIX workstations to Linux desktops.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y ago> If only Linux users would pay for desktop software I'm happy to pay for lots of things. But I'm not interested in paying for crappy software. I wouldn't, for instance, pay for Microsoft Word.
- hfdgiutdryg 8y agoMicrosoft Word is a more complex piece of software that delivers more value to more businesses and individuals than (virtually?) anything that anyone on this site has ever made. It amazes me how little people value other people's work on this site.
- smolder 8y agoYou are right, Word is impressive in the same way a big factory that assembles complicated products is impressive. It's an impressive amount of work, it's complex, and it gets a lot done. But looking in the factory, you can see some things it does in house that are better left to other facilities, some machinery that is overcomplicated or inefficient, it pollutes more than it needs to, etc. But we need to hit those production targets. Changing things up would be expensive, so on we go... providing value to those who depend on it.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y agoMicrosoft Word (and word processors more generally) are horrible environments for creating any sort of content in. They're great for bureaucrats who like to "do lots of work" without producing anything of use. I cringe every time I have to deal with a Word file.
- V-2 8y ago"Don't want to be warned in the future?" Does that imply that having MS Edge installed is something to be warned about, or that installing Firefox/Chrome is somehow bad for your PC?
- drbawb 8y agoI agree, I personally read this as very threatening. In general I find that Microsoft's messaging has lost touch w/ reality. Remember when MS used to say "please?" -- ever notice how nowadays instead of asking you they command you? "Don't turn off your PC", "We're getting things ready", "This may take a while." I've noticed this trend since Windows 8, but it's gotten really bad in Windows 10. Their messaging has become very anti-user. My personal favorite from more recent builds of 10: "Windows is a service, and regular updates are an important part of keeping it running." Oh really? A service? My mistake, I thought I had licensed an operating system.
- kevin_b_er 8y agoThey want your money all the time now not just when they actually make a better product.
- eganist 8y agoI'm not saying it's right, but there's a chance Microsoft is feeling emboldened to get away with it based on Google's success steering search users to their own products. In the beginning, it was just Microsoft.
- techntoke 8y agoDoes Microsoft not have a competitive product on mobile devices? Hmmm.. wonder why.
- eganist 8y agoThat story's a lot more complicated, and a lot of it can be blamed on Evan Spiegel and Snap. https://www.youthhealthmag.com/articles/31188/20160109/snapchat-app-windows-phone.htm https://www.youthhealthmag.com/articles/31188/20160109/snapc... Interesting follow-up there is that Facebook, in lifting so much of Snapchat for use across Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, and Messenger, has been giving Evan & team a pretty terrifying karmic kick in the rear... and though there might not be a connection here, Microsoft does own 1.~% of Facebook, after all. Disclosure: own shares of SNAP; probably not selling soon (it either wins by chance or I write the whole company off as a loss). I don't exactly have the best opinion of the company.
- wslh 8y agoThe UI/UX is the war territory, everything that is behind doesn't matter. The browser is the new and more engaging TV. People engage in fierce discussions about centralization vs. federation vs. decentralization but every approach is killed by the final UI or aggregator where the user interacts.
- gregknicholson 8y agoPresumably Microsoft can substantiate the claims that Edge is both faster and safer than Firefox and Chrome. But if not, I don't think the UK Advertising Standards Authority's remit includes adverts built into already-installed software. Microsoft can claim anything, whether true or not.
- TwoBit 8y agoEdge may well be faster in some cases but now way is it safer. It takes Microsoft weeks or months to fix bugs that Firefox and Chrome fix in days, or even hours.
- pgnas 8y agoLinux. Companies like this stifle innovation.
- rootlocus 8y ago> Companies like this stifle innovation. Perhaps. But then again, I'm using my iPad to draw with Procreate, and it's the best experience I've had (both software and hardware). I'd argue in this case Apple is quite innovative. Things are never black and white.
- LarryMade2 8y ago"We know what you are up to... Please do what we want you to do instead." That's kinda the impression I get, there is definitely no sense of "security" or "privacy" in this or in the first run of Chrome or Firefox messages that also tend to show up. It sounds more like "if you follow our recommendations we won't be so obvious about us monitoring what you do."
- sharmi 8y agoFor that matter, Google is not much different. A few months back, I had to log into my Windows partition, something I avoid as much as possible. I wanted to install firefox. So I get on IE, search for "firefox" on google.com. Above all the results, the top prominent ad slot is for Google Chrome. Google stoops just as low as Microsoft.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rustcharm 8y agoiOS doesn’t even allow alternate browsers that aren’t just wrappers for their engine.
- anticensor 8y agoYou cannot upload to AppStore yet there are efforts to build Servo and real Firefox for iOS: https://github.com/servo/servo/issues/18154 https://github.com/servo/servo/issues/18154
- mindcrime 8y agoA zebra doesn't change its stripes. This kind of behavior (in a general sense) is a good example of why people were so worried about Microsoft acquiring GitHub. Remember, the scorpion ends up stinging the frog in the end, because that's it's nature.
- JustSomeNobody 8y agoI look at this crap and I think, good grief, this is just such a waste of developer time, user time, computer resources, etc. Think about this. Someone had to add code to the OS to specifically check for this and pop up this message. Wow. Our industry is taking a dump. It's truly sad. Oh and not to mention that any code could potentially be buggy and lead to yet more malware infections. Not something Windows needs help with!
- ajaygeorge91 8y agoI really wanted to try out Edge. But there are no extensions of any sort. With out the password/bookmark managers and all, how can anyone get started in this thing. I switch back and forth between firefox and chrome because of the cross platform extensions. Microsoft should pay developers to bring their products to edge. At least the popular ones.
- bovermyer 8y agoExtensions exist, and are installed via the Microsoft Store. I use Bitwarden for password management in Edge.
- thecatspaw 8y agoso you need a microsoft account to download extensions for your browser?
- woodrowbarlow 8y agomost windows 10 users don't realize its even possible to use windows 10 without a microsoft account... and eventually, it probably won't be possible except for enterprise users.
- techntoke 8y agoAll while they subsidize the cost of the OS for spyware from their manufacturers, or flat out pay for it with enterprise licensing. Something something... customer experience makes it necessary to require a cloud account to login to your OS.
- Rynant 8y agoEdge didn't have extensions when it first came out, but it does have them now, including: uBlock, Adblock, LastPass, RES, Tampermonkey. Still nowhere near what Firefox or Chrome has though.
- jasonkostempski 8y ago
- jasonkostempski 8y agoJust uninstall Edge.
- Someguywhatever 8y agoI use windows but not edge or IE, and putting my tinfoil hat on, my Chrome performance has taken a dump recently... MEANWHILE.. edge is blazing fast. I feel like something is going on. I don't want to use edge, but it's like my internet is broken if I try to use chrome. It literally takes 30 seconds to get to the page on Chrome, and instantly on MS Edge... IDK what to do about it though.
- zamalek 8y agoMozilla and/or Google would do well to figure out how their installers are being detected (filename? Verisign certificate?) and simply change them. It's harder to push an OS update than rename or re-sign a file.
- SamuelAdams 8y agoMaybe Microsoft should address the reasons why people do not switch? Look, Edge is a fine browser - it's fast, stable, and easier (compared to IE) to build websites for. But it's not cross platform. I use a Windows desktop, Debian laptop, and Apple phone. Edge is available on exactly one of those platforms, while Firefox and Chrome are available on all of them. Until that is fixed I will not consider edge, despite how fast or "secure" it may be over the competition. Edit: seems that Edge is available on the App Store[1], and Linux requires a Wine workaround. I prefer native support, without hacks or clunky install processes. [1]https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-edge/id1288723196?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-edge/id1288723196?...
- tjoff 8y agoIf I'm not mistaken safari is the only iOS browser, all other browsers are just a skin for it. So thanks to apple there is no cross-platform browser that works on all your devices. Unless you count safari, if they still bother porting that outside iOS/OS X. In which case that wouldn't be preferable anyway. There is nothing wrong with running different browsers on different operating systems.
- jakebasile 8y agoYeah, all the browsers on iOS are reskins of Safari but to an end user that's all that matters since those reskins can bring things like synced bookmarks and history.
- 8y ago
- ekianjo 8y agoValve and their Steam client may be next... "You already have the Windows store which is the safest way to buy games...". It's coming.
- majewsky 8y agoWhich is exactly why Valve pours so much money in making Linux a palatable gaming platform. They want an exit strategy when something like this happens. Or when MS decides that the Windows Store is not only the safest, but now also the only way to buy Windows software.
- ekianjo 8y agoYes, I am clearly aware of that. This is why they are investing so much and they pretty much have a good plan now since Steam Play/Proton can already run many Windows games right from Linux.
- Krasnol 8y agoI wish I could set that up for Chrome on win7 so my parents don't end up with it every time they update some completely unrelated software.
- techntoke 8y agoChrome doesn't come packaged with very much software, and if it is then you're probably installing the wrong software or they're just checking yes to everything and you have bigger concerns.
- Krasnol 8y agoI'm pretty sure it's some update. My guess is Avast. Other then that, I have no problems. They use this laptop only for Skype. Even mails run only through another laptop with mint on it.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- cwyers 8y agoI am not exactly happy about this, but this isn't behavior that makes them stand out from the pack. Google constantly nags me about visiting their sites in Edge, and I understand that the situation is much worse on iOS. But if Microsoft wants to convince people to use Edge, they should start by dumping a bunch of resources into sanding down the rough spots and applying some spit and polish. It's like 90% of a satisfactory browser at this point, maybe even 95%, but the remaining bits can be really, really frustrating.
- ConcernedCoder 8y agoIt might as well say: "We monitor your every move, and highly disapprove... Click here to return into our good graces, and be fairly confident we won't mysteriously brick your system."
- meijer 8y agoI hope Windows 7 will somehow live forever.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- zelon88 8y agoI don't understand why so many of you highly intelligent people subject yourselves to this kind of stuff. Here we are complaining about Microsoft, Google, and Mozilla's behaviour. Arguing about openness, paying for software, market share. You control exactly two of those things. You control what you pay for, and your choices affect market share. Yet you're complaining about the level of open-ness of companies who aren't trying to be open, hoping that someday it will change. They don't change because their customers arbitrarily WANT them to change. They change when their market share is threatened and they are FORCED to change. You want to make the Windows team listen? Stop using Windows. You want Mozilla to stop using Google as their default search provider? Change your default search provider manually. You want Google to stop spying on you? Stop using Android. A lot of people will argue that it's not practical, too much effort, too costly. That's fine, but don't expect anything to change. You're acting like sheep so you're being treated like sheep. In one breath you say "companies only care about their bottom-line!" and in the next you whine "Microsoft is upselling me, Googleplex is tracking me, Firefox is in bed with Google!" Well, that's because Microsoft pushed Windows 10 in your face and you ate it. Google tells you they'll sell your info and you let them. Firefox tells you they're gonna hop into bed with Google and you said nothing about it. You're screaming, but they have headphones on that are made up of your cash. When you speak softly and carry a big stick, these companies will listen.
- VikingCoder 8y agoI use the operating system my employer chooses. I have exactly zero influence over that. Believe me, I've tried.
- SECProto 8y ago> I use the operating system my employer chooses. I have exactly zero influence over that. Believe me, I've tried. You've missed a key line of what GP said: > A lot of people will argue that it's not practical, too much effort, too costly. That's fine, but don't expect anything to change. It's not practical, and it's a lot of effort, and it's too costly, but you could use a different operating system. Find an employer who doesn't use that operating system. The "cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face" option.
- tabtab 8y agoThe other browsers should counter with a message of their own: "Ignore Microsoft Edge's pop-up spam, our browser is really better. Tell Nadella to shove it."
- judah 8y ago> "Companies like Google or Microsoft have used their market position in the past to push their own products." The article lost its credibility in the opening paragraphs.
- eitland 8y ago> The article lost its credibility in the opening paragraphs. How? Microsoft was fined for bundling IE. Google have not been punished yet but will hopefully IMO soon be for abusing their position to push Chrome. Edit: Two remove all doubt; I do not intend to defend any of these two. This is abuse of market position by both of them IMO.
- partiallypro 8y agoThis is only on insider builds, fwiw...I would be more worried if they pushed this to the general builds. I bet it never makes it that far.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- p0nce 8y agoI prefer this than the prospect of Google controlling 90% of browsers worldwide.
- chrisbennet 8y agoOh boo hoo. Windows asks you if you wouldn't rather use the installed Edge browser. Could it lead to them "intercepting" installs and disallowing them in the future? Yeah, maybe it could. I'll worry about it when it does.
- 013a 8y agoLast night, on my new Windows 10 machine, I received a notification "You got a message on your phone; Want to see phone messages on this PC too?" I've never installed Microsoft's phone app, and there's no way it could possibly know I just got a message. In fact, I didn't just get a message at all, and hadn't for hours. So, they're lying. They're straight-up, bold-faced, red-handed, lying to their customers to get us to install their spyware which reads and syncs your text messages. I'm finished with Microsoft. They're such a garbage company and always have been.
- pweissbrod 8y agoI'd be interested in knowing more about how this particular connection was made. Do you have any educated theories on how the message was inferred?
- 013a 8y ago"We want people to install our phone app. Lets tell them they just got a message, people get messages all the time so we'll probably be right, and it'll seem like the feature is already working so all users have to do is click a button."
- nambit 8y agoSaw the same. If not for video games, I'd be long gone.
- christogreeff 8y ago"Switch to Chrome, a smarter browser Google recommends using Chrome. Try it?" Every. Single. Time I open Google using Edge. And Chrome is just as annoying wanting to be the default browser. How is this different to a prompt when I install Chrome? Both are highly annoying.
- salawat 8y agoAgain: This is why computing is going off the rails, and computational literacy is critical. The computer belongs to the User. It's sole purpose is to compute, FOR THE USER. If your software is running on someone else's machine. And you want data exfiltrated back to you, normatively speaking, you should ANNOUNCE your intention, EXPLAIN it, and ASK for permission, this includes honoring their decision if they say NO. The industry has clearly been sliding down a slippery slope in which businesses have unilaterally decided that running THEIR software exempts them from having to respect the User. This is madness. If a society operated on the types of practices that are considered "appropriate" in computing, we'd be liable to label them as savages. Keep your interbusiness competition OFF MY MACHINE! (Thank God for Linux From Scratch!)
- nailer 8y ago> The computer belongs to the User. I wish, but this hasn't been the case since 2005. LFS won't help if your firmware limits kernels to those signed by Microsoft, or help you decrypt the signal sent to your monitor with your monitor vendors pubkey, or stop TCPIP running on the proprietary copy of Minix that Intel installed for you. General purpose computing was lost a decade ago.
- chriswarbo 8y agoIt's still possible to avoid some of this. For example I've made a point to never use HDMI, and I've had no compatibility problems, e.g. I've always been able to use VGA when giving talks, etc. In fact it's usually the people with DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort/etc. scrambling to find an adapter. I've also tried to avoid EFI and Intel processors. My previous laptop used OpenFirmware and a Geode processor, which I'm assuming never had a hidden OS/Web/etc. stack like Intel's. I eventually upgraded about 4 years ago, when the first laptop (a refurbished ThinkPad x60s) got the FSF's "respects your freedom" certification. It's not perfect, since it's got an Intel processor and I think there's EFI running underneath LibreBoot, so I've been keeping an eye out for a replacement. I don't think we need to give up. There are some promising developments, with "bottom up" efforts like RISCV and "top down" mitigation efforts like those of Purism. 'Consumer electronics' may be a lost cause (without legal intervention, at least), but there are still options for those who prioritise digital freedom above convenience, price, etc. (e.g. Talos II)
- kerng 8y agoAll these companies that use this, it's better, safer messages are really annoying. I thought Google's "get chrome" links and buttons everywhere are bad, but intercepting an installation is probably even worse. These companies really should just build better products. My main browser is Firefox, and that wont change.
- nobleach 8y agoThis annoys me, but in the end, I can click the "no thank you" button and it all goes away. I do think their claims to be the "faster and more secure" browser are dubious at best. But at least MS allows other browsers to be installed. iOS will give you a Chrome lookalike with a WebKitWebView engine, and no v8 JS engine. (I'm not calling JSCore bad). It's like saying, you can have any browser you want, as long as it's Safari. I get _why_ they do it, but it's an anti-competitive practice.
- jrs95 8y agoIt may actually be faster and more secure, it does well on artificial tests at least. But my issue with it is generally stability. More crashes and some sites don't behave as well. Video streaming in particular is iffy. Since Chrome is most tested against now, I just have the most stable overall experience with Chrome. Even if it had the worst performance I'd probably still be using it for that reason.
- severino 8y agoIt will always be faster in Windows. When you're running IE, you're running IE. But when you're running Firefox, you're running Firefox + IE :-D
- nhumrich 8y agoWhat? Howso? Firefox doesn't piggy back on edge/ie.
- severino 8y agoWell, you know, up until recently (don't know if still is) IE was a core part of the operating system, not just the browser itself. That meant that using IE alone will have for example less battery usage than using Firefox, or any other browser, "alone", as you would be running IE too.
- ripdog 8y agoUh, theres no reason for IE to use less battery because it's 'part of the OS'. In the end, IE still has to do all the tasks to render a webpage which Firefox or Chrome have to do. It might be able to leverage some fancy hidden OS features to be slightly more efficient/use the hardware better in some way, but fundamentally it doesn't have much of an advantage.
- zvrba 8y agoNo different from Google docs nagging me with a popup to install Chrome whenever I open a Google docs document. And no option to disable it, it seems.
- unilynx 8y agoThey've been trying similar things for months. Still, Edge isn't taking off and IE11 sticks around. IE11 is not going to die this way. Why can't they do what the Chrome Frame did years ago, and just offer Edge-inside-an-IE11 frame so we can finally move forwards JS-wise? I don't mind adding a dozen custom headers and meta tags this time around, but please, come up with a way so every-day-web-developers can get away from IE11's constraints
- userbinator 8y agoI wish they would just keep the IE UI, and have Edge be the rendering engine. The only reason I like IE over other browsers is because its UI hasn't changed much and remains relatively un-dumbed-down and un-mobile-apped like a Windows application should. Its configuration dialogs are also standard ones.
- glonq 8y agoIn the words of Raymond Chen, "I bet somebody got a really nice bonus for that feature."
- anderspitman 8y ago> on a recent Windows 10 version 1809 Insider build > While there is certainly a chance that Microsoft is just testing things in preview versions of Windows, it is equally possible that such a setting will land in the next feature update for Windows 10 Still don't like it, though.
- dao- 8y ago> A user who initiates the installation of a browser does so on purpose. That's not quite true, considering how Chrome ended up on many PCs, e.g.: https://www.ghacks.net/2012/02/26/avast-7-will-install-google-chrome-if-you-do-not-pay-attention/ https://www.ghacks.net/2012/02/26/avast-7-will-install-googl...
- cmurf 8y agoI don't like this behavior (deceptive assertions). However: The user being actively steered away from an alternative browser, is unlikely to expose the user to 3rd party risk. It might expose them to personal data being collected by Microsoft. Whereas, for example, Apple's latest hardware with Secure Boot, lacks both an Apple signing service for UEFI applications, and the Microsoft UEFI public certificate (which near as I can tell all non-Apple x86_64 hardware does have). Linux distros get their shim pre-bootloader signed with the Microsoft UEFI key, that's how they can leverage Secure Boot. But on the latest Apple hardware, no Linux for you unless you disable Secure Boot. I've found no support document how I can add enroll a key, either my own, my distro's, or Microsoft's public UEFI key. I think the Apple case is provably worse, it does expose users to 3rd party malware.
- satysin 8y agoIt is this kind of bullshit that makes me glad I switched to macOS a few months ago. Windows is a good OS but for all the progress Microsoft makes in other areas they fuck things up with this kind of crap that just make using Windows a crappy experience.
- Yizahi 8y agoJust now Google decided that their News (or how it's called) app on my phone should show notification for an article, first time in two years that I have this phone. And who would have guessed - it was about this issue. Google is so afraid that MS and Mozilla may slightly sway Google's hold on the Internet? :)
- rafaelvasco 8y agoI've been getting more and more dissatisfied with Win10. I wish i could migrate to linux but Steam/Games is still an impeditive.
- frebord 8y agoCan someone who is part of a bigger organization describe to me how this might happen, and what is the ultimate intent? Who would make such a decision and why isn't there any push back along the way to implementing it?
- aj_g 8y agoWas just about to post asking the same question. If you look closely, is this just the result of some MSFT PM trying to meet some quantitative metric for Edge usage? Or is this the result of a coordinated decision, approved by multiple levels of management? Have never experienced a large corporate structure, so I'm quite curious.
- sangnoir 8y agoPointy-haired boss: "I've been looking at our numbers and they aren't great - Google is getting a lot of installs via their Chrome ads on Google properties. Is there anything we can do to stop them stealing users from Edge? We control the desktop, right?" Engineering lead: "I'll ask the Edge team to add an overlay when the user visits a Chrome download URL, but that might change. The installers are signed though, so we could check the package name and author at install time..." Boss: "Great! Go for it- give me a timeline, this has highest priority for the realease in N weeks"
- enitihas 8y agoI think this sets a dangerous precedent. Till now it seemed that the desktop was the last mainstream open computing platform due to it's legacy rooted in standardisation, but that seems to be moving too. While iOS anyways treats users as clueless and prefers being their "savior" instead of giving them power, atleast their attitude can be justified in that mobile makes computing available to people who have no time for understanding computers and need to be protected. But I think even iOS doesn't intercept your downloads. Neither does Android, the business model of which is supposed to be forcing people to consume Google's services. If an OS will intercept your download, and guide you towards a "better way", how will a competing product even gain marketshare.
- makecheck 8y agoI particularly dislike marketing that uses terms like “safer”, “faster”...compared to what? If you dig far enough into the fine print, it is usually clarified as “...compared to our last crappy version” but the implication is that the product is superior to any alternative. That kind of phrasing is garbage and has no place in a user warning, much less anywhere else.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- make3 8y agoIsn't this just asking for another anti-trust suit
- trhway 8y agofor all the talk about new MS, the new MS looks strangely like the old MS :)
- jacquesm 8y agoIt would be nice to have some views from those that keep claiming that 'Microsoft has changed'. All I see is a nicer wrapping around the exact same company. Not that Google is any better with their incessant pushing of Chrome (including fucking up the way their websites work with other browsers).
- qwerty456127 8y agoI'd say this is defiantly unethical yet I feel like this can actually be considered a good thing to exist: the web being monopolized by just one major browser/engine (which is Chrome/Blink/WebKit nowadays) is obviously a problem so anything than can increase presence of alternative browsers/engines can be considered a contribution to the web ecosystem diversity (although, honestly, I wouldn't recommend any of my friends/clients to use a Microsoft-made browser as these have a strong history of being far behind the web standards progress and exposing system vulnerabilities via ActiveX).
- majewsky 8y ago> [Microsoft-made browsers] have a strong history of being far behind the web standards progress They've catched up quite a bit on that front: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/status/ https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platfor... Also, IE before version 6 had a history of being extremely innovative (DHTML, anyone?). That's part of how they won the first browser wars (that and pushing the browser through their OS). > and exposing system vulnerabilities via ActiveX Now that's just baseless fearmongering. Edge supports neither ActiveX nor Java Applets. That's why IE is still around: for legacy websites in corporate intranets that still require this junk. I'm not sure if IE is installed on non-Enterprise SKUs of Windows 10, but it would surprise me if it was.
- squarefoot 8y agoThey don't just intercept the installation. Yesterday an old neighbor phoned me that after an update he lost everything and he could not connect to the Internet anymore. He spent most of his life without computers and clearly is not a tech guy, but he's also not an idiot and if some update warned of software deletion he would not allow it. Long story short and in his words because I wasn't there, at every boot a requester told him he had to allow an update, so he allowed it. The PC then kept making its own business for some time and when he logged in back, everything was gone. I took a look at the machine in the evening and yes, the desktop was just like it had been freshly installed, with only the background and profile avatar and credentials exception. The system also left a file on the desktop containing a list of the deleted software; there were about 5 or 6 entries and both Firefox and Chrome were on that list. Luckily all his documents were still in their directory, but after reinstalling Firefox, all his bookmarks and saved passwords were gone without a single warning and no way to recover the profile data. I won't go further describing how annoying then became Edge in remembering us it's the best possible web experience. Just no thanks, he'll stick with Firefox (Chrome has become suspicious as well), and the Migration to Linux is about one week away; he won't be the first 70+ years old user I convert.
- ishaanbahal 8y agoI think your neighbours machine went into some issue and did an automatic restore to some working state, which probably was the first login state. The files remained but the rest of the software got removed that probably don't ship with Windows. So maybe this one was not MS trying to remove your open source browsers, but just doing a system restore using an image.
- squarefoot 8y agoA system restore from an image would wipe everything, luckily all user documents were intact, including user login, password and desktop background. But all personal data pertaining to 3rd party browsers was gone (all passwords, all bookmarks) which suggests that an algorithm decided that something in the user folders had to stay and something else had to go.
- FrameworkFred 8y agoPeople still run windows?
- Havoc 8y agoClassic Microsoft
- KiDD 8y agoThey are also intercepting iTunes downloads and redirecting to the MS Store!
- tomxor 8y agoMozilla should add a counter install interception notification: > "You appear to be installing Firefox on Microsoft Windows, there are less painful alternatives you know!"
- matheusmoreira 8y agoDidn't Microsoft get sued for this kind of behavior? I thought they'd stopped employing these tactics.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- diebir 8y agoWho cares, really? Windows is mostly used in the offices, and at that, the places too cheap to afford Macs. The home user and all semi-advanced tech companies have long switched off Windows. Windows is irrelevant at this point.
- ionised 8y agoIf you're a PC gamer (and there are millions of them) you are almost certainly playing on Windows, because you kind of have to. And most business that are not big-tech (as in, most of the world's businesses) are still utterly invested in Windows and Microsoft. Enterprise has always been Microsoft's biggest cash cow.
- vbezhenar 8y agoWhile I don't like this tactics, especially relating to Firefox, when Google tries to install Chrome from its websites, I can understand why Microsoft wants to fight back. I've used Edge a few monthes and those Chrome suggestions were really annoying. Now Firefox is other matter and I think, Microsoft shouldn't touch it.
- zaarn 8y agoWhile on principle I think this is bad, I think overall MS should encourage more users to switch away from Chrome. Chrome has +80% marketshare and quite frankly, Google is abusing their monopoly on the browser market willingly, otherwise they'd push for a more diverse market. While this is quite the abuse of marketshare in OS to push Browser marketshare, I don't think the EU will care that much considering that Edge is a niche product, they will care once they do have a sizable chunk of browser marketshare.
- michaelmrose 8y agoIt's an issue because of Microsoft's share of the pc market regardless of their share of the browser market. Its abusing a monopoly that is an issue not how successful this abuse is.
- zaarn 8y agoIn the EU how successful the abuse is does somewhat matter. The EU doesn't like it when you have two monopolies and use one to reinforce the other. They're generally fine with leveraging one to get an advantage in another market space as long as you don't fall in the above category, ie as long as you aren't a significant portion of the market. I do sort of agree in this case because it creates more competition in the market (ie Chrome vs Edge) which is healthy.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- tyfon 8y agoIf they show that screen in Norway they will have to be able to prove that it is faster and safer than the others. If not it's misleading marketing according to the law. They can say "one of the safest and fastest" browser though. We've had a number of cases like this over the years where a company makes a statement like "the best pizza in town" and they can't prove it and have to change the text.
- appleflaxen 8y ago> have to change the text that doesn't sound like a particularly threatening consequence
- tyfon 8y agoWell that's just if they comply immediately. If MS resists the authorities will issue daily fines. Not sure how high they go though. It's enough so far that I haven't seen anyone else continue to market in that way after getting noticed.
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoThis is when you get tiny quotation marks added to signage -- "BEST PIZZA EVER" (according to A N Owner). I'm actually OK with non-measurable claims, "best" is abstract, the best pizza is the one in your hand, or something. Now, "biggest"/"fastest"/"$weight"/"$size"/etc. well they better damn well be just that, if you're "footlong" is ever less than a foot (not on average either!) then I want your company crushed until it bleeds money.
- reitanqild 8y ago> This is when you get tiny quotation marks added to signage -- "BEST PIZZA EVER" (according to A N Owner). Not sure that will fly in Norway. Not really into consumer protection laws but I live in Norway and we had this[0] discussion 3 weeks ago about the use of the word "free" and I guess they might be equally picky about "best" as well (a good thing IMO). [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17816096 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17816096
- anyzen 8y agoA few days ago I tried to install LibreOffice because a (legal) copy of MS Word gave me trouble and I needed a fast solution. However max. download speed I could reach was ~50k/s, bringing download time to almost an hour. Net speed test on the same computer reached full speed with no problem. Download from another (Linux) computer from the same URL was a matter of minutes. All of the mirror sites I tried had a similar speed. I thought it was just some weird misconfiguration, but now I wonder... Could MS be actively slowing down downloads from LibreOffice to discourage users from using it?
- tomelders 8y agoOnly suckers trust Microsoft. That may be glib, but it's 100% true.
- CyberDildonics 8y agoJust Microsoft continuing to boil the frog slowly as every big company seems to do with the influence they already have.
- msoucy 8y agoNote that according to [1] they've disabled those again. [1]: https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-quietly-takes-controversial-edge-ads-offline-says-its-part-of-insider-testing https://www.onmsft.com/news/microsoft-quietly-takes-controve...
- pard68 8y agoThis isn't much different that what both Windows and macOS do whem trying to scare users into using app store software only. Macs use some rather scary language (scary when you are not a "computer person") to dissuade people from installing binaries from outside of the app store ecosystem. Microsoft does the same thing, even worse if you have one of their Windows 10S versions which locks you to app store software only.
- perlgeek 8y agoI can't imagine the EU and US antitrust regulators being very happy about this, if it ever becomes widely deployed.
- matchai 8y agoSounds like Microsoft has now disabled the feature: https://twitter.com/FPresencia/status/1039899988837511169 https://twitter.com/FPresencia/status/1039899988837511169
- sigi45 8y agoGhacks.net is a crappy page... Notifications? No Startside? No Tracking everything? No