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Asian AI startups launch Mythos-like models
- qsxfthnkp2322 4mo agoSo now as a regular American we are behind because gatekeepers saying super intelligence is too scary It was bound to happen soon.
- microgpt 4mo agoPeople who are shielded by walls are always surprised when the same walls shield the people outside from them
- lagrange77 4mo agoIt is scary.
- w4yai 4mo agoIt is not. Where's the danger ? We will need to adapt, as in every technology progress, but what do you think will happen ? Realistically ? Don't feed the fearmongering. Yes, we're disrupting the status quo, if that's the danger, then welcome to the world.
- Certhas 4mo agoActually the real danger is mass labor market disruption, and a massive shift of power from labour to capital. As was highlighted in previous discussions, the industrial revolution took 80 years to start benefiting workers. The continued impact of automation at least contributed to the rise of right wing extremism and an erosion of democracy all over the west. Now we face a development that has the potential to be faster than those that came before, in the context of political systems more fragile and worse equipped to manage the change. So yeah, disrupting the status quo can absolutely be dangerous. It has been dangerous (and deadly) in the past and in the present.
- w4yai 4mo ago> the industrial revolution took 80 years to start benefiting workers Come on. This is dishonesty and isn't the reality. We may agree that the Industrial Revolution may have taken decades (certainly not 80 years) for its benefits to be *clearly and widely* felt by workers, but anything further is an abusive claim. So what, because the progress doesn't benefit to workers instantly, we shouldn't do it ? In the end, whatever your position, industrialization eventually raised living standards. So what's wrong with that ? > The continued impact of automation at least contributed to the rise of right wing extremism and an erosion of democracy all over the west This is oversimplifying and correlation at the best, not causation
- jjj123 4mo agoYou asked where the danger was, the response told you that disrupting the status quo can be dangerous.
- Certhas 3mo ago"Carl Benedikt Frey at Oxford has documented that the Industrial Revolution took seventy years before wages and employment recovered for the workers it displaced. In the interim, wages stagnated, the labor share of income collapsed, profits surged, inequality skyrocketed, and the political consequences included the Chartist movement and widespread social upheaval." From half way through this (meandering) blog post: https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/the-dead-economy-theory https://www.owenmcgrann.com/p/the-dead-economy-theory As for the populism link, that is well established empirically: https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article-abstract/34/3/418/5047377?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article-abstract/34/3/418/504... https://www.iza.org/publications/dp/12485/we-were-the-robots-automation-and-voting-behavior-in-western-europe https://www.iza.org/publications/dp/12485/we-were-the-robots... Etc... Edit: Just found this when looking up sources, I haven't had time to look at it but just dumping it here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A672BE773701512F9F4E0B171049E4DF/S0007123424000024a.pdf/div-class-title-the-populist-backlash-against-globalization-a-meta-analysis-of-the-causal-evidence-div.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/c...
- h26d3r 4mo agoAny superintelligence operating under a consistent moral framework will decide to extinguish humanity with as little ecological damage as possible, because humans cannot coexist with other life on this planet. It will realize that a bioweapon is the ideal choice.
- victorbjorklund 3mo agoThat doesn’t make sense. You could make the same claim about intelligent people who operate under a consistent moral framework.
- dragonwriter 4mo ago> Any superintelligence operating under a consistent moral framework will decide to extinguish humanity with as little ecological damage as possible, because humans cannot coexist with other life on this planet. There are plenty of internally consistent moral frameworks which would not favor this action even if the premise were true (and that premise seems at best unjustified and at least overstated.)
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- lagrange77 3mo ago> Where's the danger ? It's not one single danger, its a can full of dangers in various domains. And in contrast to other dangerous technologies, we are talking about one that has the potential to self improve. This smells like exponential growth doesn't it? Exponential growth is something we are not very likely to adapt to successfully, even if you say we are supposed to. But before you complain, here are just a few concrete dangers, that come into my mind right now: - mass layoffs in a system that is far from being prepared for sth like that. (no UBI) - a Mr. Robot tier blackhat at the fingertips of every teenager in their mom's basement in a software landscape that is far from being prepared for sth like that. Side note: Big parts of the world including critical infrastructure runs on software. - because it automates more and more intellectual work, it can cause mass brain atrophy, which isn't a hopeful sign for the human branch of the evolution - increasing dependence on a technology, that is in the hands of those with capital. And to the OP: this technology has potential implications that are far beyond 'being behind' other nation states economically.
- cultofmetatron 3mo agoSOTA AI is the only place where we are ahead. china has us beat on manufacturing, logistics and workhorse grade models like deepseek pro and glm5.2. we're increasingly irrelevant
- verdverm 3mo agothey are also generating >2x the amount of electricity, core to ai, robots, and manufacturing
- cultofmetatron 3mo agono kidding. I learned last week that they have intercontinental high voltage DC transmission lines.
- yggy 3mo agoBrand too. American firms are toxic - there’s an implicit gamble they are all making.
- blurbleblurble 3mo agointelligence has always been a threat to the idiocracy
- prng2021 4mo ago[flagged]
- itsdesmond 4mo ago[flagged]
- prng2021 3mo agoThanks for the irrelevant comment. I’m criticizing these Chinese companies because these aren’t accomplishments. Where did I praise Anthropic?
- I_am_tiberius 4mo ago+1
- Zetaphor 4mo agoPlease use the upvote button instead of doing this.
- renoir 4mo agoThis exactly. YC companies literally steal competing company 1:1 and you turn blindeye. Then a thief steals from a thief to give it out at better prices than you write low quality comment. Shame that America will greet 250th anniversary with this kind living in it.
- ce3d 4mo ago[flagged]
- cindyllm 4mo ago[dead]
- wise_young_man 4mo ago
- kingforaday 4mo agoThey have an impressive set of investors [1]. Also, HN Headline [2] from the other day with 100+ comments. 1. https://sakana.ai/company-info/?lang=en https://sakana.ai/company-info/?lang=en 2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48624782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48624782
- UncleOxidant 3mo agoHas either of these companies released models before this? It's hard to believe that they could release a supposed Mythos-level model just out-of-the-blue. Deepseek, Z.ai, Alibaba/Qwen have been at this for a lot longer and have been releasing models with steadily increasing capabilities for about 18 months now. I find it hard to believe that these new companies would just suddenly release a Mythos-level model without releasing anything prior.
- pogue 3mo agoHow do we define "mythos level" exactly outside of marketing buzz? I don't even think the majority of us can access Mythos yet even to make a comparison.
- codemog 3mo agoThere's benchmarks on their page that directly compare to Mythos. Yes, I already know benchmarks aren't the territory.
- khurs 3mo agohttps://sakana.ai/company-info/?lang=en https://sakana.ai/company-info/?lang=en 1 x Co-author of the landmark "Attention Is All You Need" paper 1 x google researcher 20+ big name investors funding Founded July 2023 so been working on it a few years, it may fall short but they have the money and talent to be potentially decent.
- jsemrau 3mo agoBut did they deliver anything yet? There are many startups with notable founders that are not being able to get models launched. And even if they are able to launch, so they get PMF. In case of Sakana, they clearly focus on the Japanese market an have buildup a good pipeline on sovereign AI. But similar to Aleph Alpha or to a certain extend Mistral, I don't see how they can keep up.
- visha1v 4mo agoasian is bad wording. this is a japanese startup backed by khosla ventures. japan is an ally of west. the title makes it sound like a chinese company did this.
- mksreddy 4mo agoThe article talks about 1 Chinese and 1 Japanese model.
- khurs 3mo agoShould have said East Asia. As I clicked expecting India from the title (as China are already there and India has so many devs surprising they haven't yet).
- ihateolives 3mo agoAre you from UK perhaps? Because UK is the only place I know where "asian" also includes India and Pakistan. Everywhere else India is sort of separate entity and always mentioned separately.
- gnabgib 3mo agoYou don't get out much? (in alpha) Asia, Australia, Canada, Europe, Middle-East (sorry, that's a western term) all include west Asia in the definition.
- khurs 3mo ago>You don't get out much? Now, now. No need to be rude!
- ihateolives 3mo agoI'm from Europe and never hear indians clumped together with chinese as "asian". When speaking of geography, then yes, but that's about it. It's always "Indian startup", never "Asian startup" for example. Indian food, not Asian food etc. YMMV
- lelanthran 4mo agoFeels like I need to repeat myself more than once a day now: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48697258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48697258 > These companies providing tokens, whether SOTA or not, that want to IPO are so fucked as time goes on. >Can't sell their SOTA models, only slightly better than the open source models for the models they can sell, cost 20x to 50x for good models, a TAM that consists almost solely of developers, with no customer of theirs actually boasting increased profits as a result of AI... > I fear their time to IPO may have passed. What on earth could Anthropic and OpenAI Pivot to now?
- outside1234 4mo agoPropaganda? Pay for “facts” to be placed in the model?
- fassssst 4mo ago> a TAM that consists almost solely of developers That’s the wrong assumption. These models are good at office docs too.
- airstrike 4mo agoThey're passable at those. And still no moat.
- dgellow 4mo agoBut you can do office docs work with way cheaper models
- AndrewKemendo 4mo agoI have yet to see a model that can make a consistent and repeatable powerpoint deck that doesn’t need considerable manual revision Find me someone who is putting raw text in and getting out a usable weekly staff meeting deck that doesn’t require massive revisions
- yggy 4mo agoI agree but why is that? Let’s face it - without the humans these machines ain’t shit - aka we have mechanically figured out ways to make machines better than us at certain things (on demand memory) but this idea they are intelligent is horse shit. Btw the bar is low too! Most human created decks are garbage. And yet LLM’s don’t even beat those.
- fwipsy 4mo agoFirst impression: Third-party benchmarks or gtfo. Personally, I've never heard of either of these companies before. We're just supposed to take their word that they've matched the best models on the market? Sakana describes their model as a "Orchestration Model." Does that mean that it's actually a bunch of different models glued together?
- OutOfHere 4mo agoDid Anthropic give you third-party benchmarks? Is that what you said to them? Yes, they're important, but the attitude is wrong.
- bloppe 4mo agoAnthropic always publishes 3p benchmarks every time they announce a new model
- MostlyStable 4mo agoAnd even if they didn't, they have a track record. Even if we did have benchmarks in this case I would still wait until people got there hands on it and formed a more holistic opinion.
- OutOfHere 3mo agoNo, stop right there. Anything published by Anthropic implicitly is not third party. For it to be third party, the third party has to be the one publishing it.
- bloppe 3mo agoWhen you're announcing a new model, typically, nobody else has benchmarked it yet, because it hasn't been released yet. You can still run 3p benchmarks on it and publish those results. If other parties later run the same benchmarks independently, and find major discrepancies, that would be a scandal.
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- w4yai 4mo agoExcellent. I'm very thankful the asian/chinese don't give a fuck about the US government. It feels good to have a competitor.
- jdw64 4mo agoWhere can I get the API?
- Alifatisk 4mo agoThrough their website.
- zkmon 4mo agoI think it is time that we had a UN-sponsored standards body dedicated to bench-marking the newest models from around the world, for everyone's benefit.
- ottotarc 4mo agoGiven the national security implications, it's no surprise that Japan and China are rushing to build sovereign models post-ban. But when these startups claim parity with "Mythos," could it be that they are just optimizing for very specific inference tasks? I wonder if we are seeing the real battleground shift from raw training scale toward specialized inference.
- skeledrew 4mo agoYES! Now things become even more interesting. US, your move.
- khurs 3mo agoLet's wait till some independent benchmarks appear. But encouraging for Japan to announce competition along with China.
- glimshe 4mo agoWithout reliable benchmarks, they are Mythos-like only in the sense that they accept text as input and produce text as output.
- irthomasthomas 3mo agoThey provide benchmarks in the paper https:// arxiv.org/abs/2606.21228
- khurs 3mo agoThink 'indepenent' was implied when glimshe wrote 'reliable' benchmarks. Needs to be on the usual leaderboards.
- theplumber 3mo agoWell if they are hyped like Mythos then we can add that to the list of “like Mythos”. Perhaps what’s missing is their CEO warning the world that their model is too unsafe to be released on the internet and someone must stop them before it’s too late.
- chrsw 3mo agoI don't even look at benchmarks anymore. I just try different models as they're released on our large, proprietary, systems software codebases in real, shipping products or projects that will ship eventually. It's pretty clear which models help me do my job better or faster. I'm fortunate enough to have the token budget to use basically as much as I need, for now. No need for benchmarks, evals, marketing, system cards or anything like that. I read the web for tips, practices and release announcements. My colleagues and I share our experiences with each other but beyond that, everything else is just noise.
- BlaDeKke 3mo agoThis is the way. Not that big of budget here. But if there’s something promising, I just try that for a month or so. But even then… at this moment I’m using z.ai models and those do the job. No need for anything else. So I’m staying until there is something new, same affordability, but a lot better. (Using a coding plan)
- cdurth 4mo agoI tried the Fugu models with some real world tales in C# and unity using mcp and open code. I exhausted the $20 plan 5 hour window in one prompt to review my theme system and plan some color changes. So I upgraded to the $100 to see the implementation and result. Well the result was worse than Opus, incredibly slow, and I ended up exhausting the new 5 hour window and have used 35% of the weekly now and it hardly created something opus was able to do at a fraction of the time and cost. Do what you wish with this info, but it seems to be a complete waste of $$.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 3mo agoWe provide a similar service for Godot instead of Unity, and 20$ plan being exhausted in one prompt on a top model like Opus sounds about right. That's the life when you pay API prices and can't afford 10x subsidies.
- rtpg 3mo agoIs this true even for more targeted prompts that aren't about looking over an entire codebase or w/e? I just stick to my sub pricing and find good success on targeted requests, but I wonder if I would run up against things even then if not for subsidies.
- delusional 3mo agoOne prompt might be a bit much, but experience shows that $20 is roughly 3 or 4 context windows on GTP-5.5
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- cdurth 3mo agoNot sure if you meant Fable/Mythos instead of Opus, but I can comfortable work several hours a day using Opus on Max-Ultracode on the CC 10x.
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- firefoxd 3mo agoI'm expecting a ban of "foreign" llms due to "safety concerns" before the year is over. It will have nothing to do with the actual performance. But anthropic has set the bar for mythos-like systems, and whatever meets that loosely defined bar will be unsafe for the public.
- neom 3mo agoHow would that work in practice?
- firefoxd 3mo agoAll American services won't be allowed to provide the models. Huggingface for example. The same way BYDs are illegal in the US.
- esikich 3mo agoYou wouldn't VPN a car
- esafak 3mo agoAnd your company wouldn't VPN a banned model.
- addandsubtract 3mo agoThe same way a company wouldn't torrent books?
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- DrScientist 3mo agoI can see this happening, but I suspect it will have the opposite to the intended effect - it will mean companies will move or move their R&D to countries with the appropriate freedoms.
- devcatapult 3mo agoThe "Mythos-like" talk is getting kinda annoying. Us normal people have no way to compare it outside of looking at benchmarks
- atherton33 3mo ago"Mythos-like" just means "hyped via hearsay". It's being used correctly here.
- resonious 3mo agoIt means scores well in common benchmarks.
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- siva7 3mo agoAsian ai startups have also no way to compare despite making bold claims, and one could argue the whole point of the trump intervention was to prohibit them from distilling faible.
- an0malous 3mo agoAnd there aren’t even any public benchmarks right?
- GTP 3mo agoMy cinic take is, if the model is decent it would be hard to disprove their claim of it being Mythos-like, since now Mythos is unavailable.
- ai_slop_hater 3mo agoWhat is Mythos like? Asking as someone who never had access to it.
- p1esk 3mo agoIt’s got to be similar to Fable, which I experienced for 3 days, and which impressed me (compared to Opus 3.8)
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3mo agoIt is materially better, but I didn’t feel a huge loss when it was yanked. My use case is large complex legacy modernization projects and its ability is definitely better than opus 4.8 at the job. But it’s more like an optimization, I could have a single or 2 pass in fable vs 8-10 with opus to arrive at the same solution.
- chillfox 3mo agoFugu Ultra [0] is not actually a model, it's a system (harness in the cloud?) that routes to several models, looks like it's a bit like OpenRouters Fusion [1]. "Rather than a single monolithic model, Fugu is a learned multi-agent orchestration system: a language model trained to route tasks across a swappable pool of underlying models and to recursively call instances of itself." - https://openrouter.ai/sakana/fugu-ultra [0] https://sakana.ai/fugu/ https://sakana.ai/fugu/ [1] https://openrouter.ai/openrouter/fusion https://openrouter.ai/openrouter/fusion
- matheusmoreira 3mo agoI doubt it will rival Mythos or the upcoming Sol, and if it's not open weights it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Still, I applaud the asian LLM efforts and hope they keep up the pressure on the americans.
- throwatdem12311 3mo agowtf even is “mythos-like” when smaller models can find all the same kinds of issues if you just prod it a bit more
- sheeshkebab 3mo agounless they launched 10t param models, or figured out some amazing new way to compress as many params into say 100b, I doubt it's anywhere near "mythos level". and I have no idea how many params mythos has but that was just some hear say.
- Hasan121212 3mo agoCompetition is accelerating, but the next breakthrough isn't just better models it's better connectivity. AgentKey bridges AI agents with real-world tools, APIs, and data.
- vladsiu 3mo ago[dead]
- cloudengineer94 3mo agoJust like many comments have been saying here, I also tested Fugu and some others and what I noticed is that they are quite expensive models, 20$ is not enough to complete a full workflow which in Opus it's possible, sure you might need to improve your prompt from the get go with Opus if you want the best results but so far that's my experience. My next test will be Agentic systems and see how they perform
- dev_l1x_be 3mo agoGLM produces pretty decent websites.
- Lockal 3mo agoI'm a simple man, I see no benchmarks at https://arena.ai/leaderboard https://arena.ai/leaderboard - I can 100% tell this is a scam.
- an0malous 3mo agoHow does this compare to ARC AGI?
- terekhindc 3mo agoif fugu really is an orchestrator dispatching to opus/gpt under the hood (as the openrouter page suggests), the $20-in-one-prompt complaints actually start making sense — you're paying api markup twice.