19 ms·

It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

• throwaway2037 4mo ago
  This is a brutal (but polite -- classic US Midwestern Geerling 'kill them with kindness'!) side-by-side comparison. My heart goes out to the Framework Computer team. Any team trying to compete in this product space against the surprise from Mac Neo must feel crushed. That said, I am still very optimistic for Framework Computer. It seems like nerds are going wild for them.
  • SoftTalker 4mo ago
    I didn't watch the video but isn't the main selling point of the Framework line (from their website) "Designed for easy customization, upgrades, and repairs." I would imagine the Mac Neo is a sealed unit that you use as-is until it's e-waste.
    • akkartik 4mo ago
      It's actually not bad. The rhetoric has had an effect over the years. https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-repairable-macbook-in-14-years https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r...
      • Certhas 4mo ago
        EU regulations have had an effect.
      • AshamedCaptain 4mo ago
        It's actually not bad? "The most repairable MacBook in years" means practically nothing. And for someone who might be comparing with a Framework, it's probably an insult.
        • akkartik 4mo ago
          You're preaching to the choir, brother. But reread the comment I replied to. "Use as-is until e-waste" the Neo is not.
          • bel8 4mo ago
            > "Use as-is until e-waste" the Neo is not That's a very low bar to clear
            • akkartik 4mo ago
              [flagged]
              • bel8 4mo ago
                > You are to be congratulated on the sheer looming height of your standards. The angels cry out to you from the heavens. Sheesh. - akkartik Snarky ad-hominem comments are forbidden in HN, FYI. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
                • akkartik 4mo ago
                  Edit: thanks for toning it down. I will as well. From the comment up above: > I would imagine the Mac Neo is a sealed unit that you use as-is until it's e-waste. So the "bar" is irrelevant to this conversation.
                  • deleted 4mo ago
                    [deleted]
            • margalabargala 4mo ago
              Yes, which makes the comment claiming the neo doesn't clear it all the more egregious.
      • makeitdouble 4mo ago
        It's still a 6 on the scale, and parts pairing, third party restrictions are still in place. For reference, the latest Thinkpad T series is 10/10, so a better build is clearly possible. It is actually bad. Not as bad as previous models, but still bad.
        • blazarquasar 4mo ago
          That may be true, but a MacBook is still better value for your money than any of the new Thinkpads, performance and build-quality wise.
          • makeitdouble 4mo ago
            What's your universal "value for money" index that should apply to everyone ? For instance why should a touch support or better port selection be less valuable to me than let's say battery life ? Does supporting multiple OSes have a defined value to money ratio that I'm not aware of ?
            • blazarquasar 4mo ago
              Well, thats why I specifically mentioned “performance and build-quality wise”. If you want to run Linux, then it’s obviously not a viable option.
              • makeitdouble 4mo ago
                It's still the same kind of argument. What you mean by "build quality" is probably mainly the unibody frame ? Why not include repairability as litteral build quality ? and what about weight or shock absorption? Same way "performance" can't be a fixed set of measures for everyone. I care about GPU speed in VR games and macs doen't give me much of it. My point is we can't throw around "X is better performance wise" with no context, it makes no sense on its own.
          • pjmlp 4mo ago
            Not for European prices, using Thinkpads since 2006, and yes I do have access to Apple hardware at work.
      • throwaway2037 4mo ago
        I watched some of their (iFixIt) recent videos about Framework laptops, Mac Neo, and Lenovo laptops. What I love about them: They are not haters. They just want companies to get meaningfully and incrementally better at repair. 10/10 rating does not mean perfection -- it means "great" (very repairable). In a modern world of so much unnecessary manufactured drama on social media (including YouTube), it is nice to see a high quality company batting away the opportunity for unnecessary manufactured! The most recent Lenovo laptops have a bunch of minor complaints -- still they got 10/10.
      • culi 4mo ago
        Sure, but a 6/10 for "the most repairable macbook in 14 years" is still a 6/10. Lenovo ThinkPads range from 8-10 and even the Microsoft Surface 7 got an 8
    • borgel 4mo ago
      You won't be able to upgrade it, but it is at least moderately repairable.
    • rjrjrjrj 4mo ago
      You will be able to drop an old Neo off at an Apple store and they'll recycle it. Same as with most of their other products.
      • pjmlp 4mo ago
        Most countries don't have them, with luck official resellers.
  • hadlock 4mo ago
    Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.
    • SoftTalker 4mo ago
      You're probably right for most people. But in laptops I've owned, I've done stuff like upgrade storage, upgrade/add RAM, swap out the WiFi module for one that has better OS driver support, replace batteries.
    • sorry_outta_gas 4mo ago
      [dead]
    • helterskelter 4mo ago
      Maybe. My wife is non tech and after dropping her XPS and breaking the screen she was real interested in something that can have a replacement display installed in about half an hour. She wishes her F13 were a little slimmer like her XPS, but she gets a lot of peace of mind knowing that repairs something that "even" she could do. I'd also say that Linux support basically from day 1 is their hidden killer feature. Literally zero fuss. That's mattering to a lot more people these days even if they don't daily drive Linux, it's a good plan B in case Windows manages to get even worse.
      • hadlock 4mo ago
        Most people who want a user-replaceable screen just buy a Thinkpad. I've replaced the screen on all two of the thinkpads i've owned over the last 16 years. I still have my X series from 2010; it still works, only an ant crawled between two layers of the screen and died near the center and after 7 years it was time for an upgrade. It also ran (still runs) linux just fine due to that one guy at RedHat (who very recently retired) who maintained so many of the drivers for the world. I never needed anything more complicated than a philips head screwdriver to replace the screen, ram, keyboard, hard disk, or battery. And you can get parts for a thinkpad in most countries you're likely to visit.
• afavour 4mo ago
  Eh, I think the framing isn't quite right here. The Neo is a wonderful machine but if you want to upgrade it you're out of luck, the damn thing is sealed shut. By comparison the Framework lets you upgrade individual components over time to keep your system up to date without buying a whole new one. Maybe that doesn't matter for the godson. But it's an important differentiator: the Framework is a (semi) premium product with premium features. If you don't intend to use those features, paying the premium rarely makes sense.
  • quentindanjou 4mo ago
    That might be true to some extent but what about the current product? It's nice to tell yourself that you can upgrade it in the future but the best of what the product is today isn't a great value, will the future upgrade make it better? Should we purchase a product today on what it might be tomorrow? I think Jeff is correct when he says, "for an overall worse experience, are you willing to pay 20-40% more?". That's a tough sell. I think the only reason for me to take the Framework 12 over the Neo would be because I want to advocate for a world where upgradability and repairability are common things.
    • topaz0 4mo ago
      I don't think the idea is that the upgrade will take it from decent to stellar compared to other things you might be able to buy for the same money, it's about paying a bit extra now to be able to go from decent-in-2026 to decent-in-2031 while paying a fraction of the cost that you would buying a full replacement in 2031, not to mention saving a bunch of waste. And then in 2036, and 2041, and 2046... They haven't been around long enough to be confident it'll work out that way, but that's the bet in my mind.
      • GeekyBear 4mo ago
        > it's about paying a bit extra now to be able to go from decent-in-2026 Does "slower than an iPhone chip from a couple of years ago" meet that bar?
• pixel_popping 4mo ago
  Both of them seems suicidal, 8GB RAM is really annoying to deal with.
  • dheera 4mo ago
    You can put 48GB in a Framework 12 which makes it slightly more usable.
    • dredmorbius 4mo ago
      And you can do that whenever you choose to do so, not simply at time-of-purchase. Something worth considering with the present RAM-market madness.
• aftbit 4mo ago
  If you're ideologically willing to use a Mac, you're really not the market that the Framework is targeting. Apple has always had some of the best hardware. Where they really struggle is in respecting user choice and allowing power users to alter their systems. The Neo is an appliance. The Framework is a tool. They're fundamentally intended for different people. If your choice of platform is driven by hardware instead of software, and you really like tablet mode, check out a Surface Pro. They're decent tablets that run full Windows/Linux instead of some neutered tablet OS, with a keyboard you can attach to use like a laptop.
  • noelsusman 4mo ago
    I think Framework would disagree that their target market consists solely of people ideologically opposed to owning Apple hardware.
    • horsawlarway 4mo ago
      They might disagree with that framing, but it does seem to be the majority of folks I see who are interested in them. And I'm not saying that as a negative - my Framework 13 is my favorite laptop by a fairly wide margin, but it's clearly not at the hardware level of my work issued mac. Apple produces fantastic hardware. It's a shame I can't stand them as a company, and that they cripple that hardware with their OS. Prior to framework, I'd be buying something along the lines of a Dell XPS (developer edition for linux compatibility) because a mac is just a non-starter for me. But a mac hands-down the best hardware you can get for a personal laptop right now. Turns out that's not the main driver of what laptop I want.
      • tracker1 4mo ago
        > But a mac hands-down the best hardware you can get for a personal laptop right now That's pretty much almost always been the case with Mac laptops though. Last Intel gen(s) aside for heat at the top end. I find that Apple's overall build quality, display and touchpads have pretty much always been second to none... I like the keyboards on most Thinkpads, especially historically, more than Apple's though. That said, being able to run Linux proper has become a higher priority... I plan to continue using my M1 air until it dies or I can't stand it anymore... but I bought it with 16gb ram and a bigger drive, so it does what I need and then some. I don't "work" on it, so that isn't a big deal and I can remote edit in VS Code to my desktop via wireguard+ssh wherever I am with internet access. That could be a differentiator, but my vision is so bad, I probably won't be able to get away with the maxed out display on any laptop eventually.
• jeffbee 4mo ago
  I'd guess the problem with the display is software, not hardware, and it just goes to show that the model of slapping parts together and using random downloadable software doesn't always turn out right.
  • geerlingguy 4mo ago
    It seems like they had two issues (both hardware) related to display quality: one is they couldn't have a custom display made to their specs, so they had to pick something off the shelf to meet requirements. Two is they used a 30 pin display connector (see https://community.frame.work/t/does-fl12-have-a-40-pin-edp-cable/67250/2 https://community.frame.work/t/does-fl12-have-a-40-pin-edp-c...), so certain resolutions and refresh rates probably can't work.
• eduction 4mo ago
  If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine! The Neo is an example of how this tradeoff should work: You lose flexibility but gain a lower price. For other Apple laptops, the price is on the high end and also you lose flexibility. This seeming contradiction is what helped open up the market opportunity for Framework. (To complicate my argument a bit, it happens to be the case that the Neo is actually, for a Macbook, highly repairable, but the original article doesn't actually mention this so presumably they didn't think much about that. https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-repairable-macbook-in-14-years https://www.ifixit.com/News/116152/macbook-neo-is-the-most-r... ) (Also, I'm not putting down the overall value of pricier Macbooks. You get other things in return for those prices, they are still a good value and I own some Macbooks, I'm just looking at the price <-> repairability axis here... The Neo is a particularly clear example of price vs repairability)
  • Aurornis 4mo ago
    > If you're not willing to pay a 20% premium for upgradability/fixability, then you don't _really_ want it. And that's fine! $799 versus $499 is a 60% premium. The best case numbers are buying used RAM and SSD for the Framework like Jeff did in the article ($749 total, if you can find the RAM at those prices) and comparing against the non-EDU MacBook Neo at $599. That's still a 25% premium.
    • tracker1 4mo ago
      Now pretend you can't get the student discount and actually want the extended warranty/applecare and compare the final result. Now pretend you want to bump up to 16gb of ram so you can run a VM.
      • Aurornis 4mo ago
        > Now pretend you can't get the student discount Okay it's $599 vs $799 now. 33% premium. > and actually want the extended warranty/applecare The Framework warranty is only 1 year, same as the MacBook Neo. If you add AppleCare+ to the MacBook Neo you could get a 3-year warranty laptop for $739 that performs better than the $799 Framework 12 > Now pretend you want to bump up to 16gb of ram so you can run a VM. I don't think the students shopping for a MacBook Neo are going to be heavy VM users on their little laptop, but if I do this on their website the price bumps to $1049 $1049 is within $50 of a MacBook Air with 16GB of RAM and much better CPU, display, build quality, and battery life. So I still don't see the value, sorry.
• GeekyBear 4mo ago
  > the Mac is faster (in most cases), more efficient, quieter, built better, has a much nicer display, and costs much less. The Framework is more expensive, slower (in most cases), louder (its fan ramps up quite often), has a pretty poor display, but it is a touchscreen, has a 360° hinge, and is more repairable and upgradeable. https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2026/its-hard-to-justify-framework-12/ https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2026/its-hard-to-justify-f... The thing I was not expecting was that the Intel i3 was not that far ahead on sustained loads, even with the fan at 100%. > there's one performance-related area where the Framework pulls ahead—a little
  • dheera 4mo ago
    > has a pretty poor display Framework 13 has a very good display while 12 has a crappy display. If I was buying a new laptop the Framework 12 seems like a really nice portable form factor but the crappy screen of the 12 would hold me back.
    • jimmaswell 4mo ago
      I have a 12 and the screen is fine. It's no OLED but I have no complaints for what it is. I love it as a secondary tablet-laptop for drawing and reading comics (primary laptop is a Framework 16 which I'm also in love with for Unity3D game dev and similar tasks, that one needs Windows for Visual Studio but I'm enjoying Gentoo on the 12)
      • kybernetikos 4mo ago
        There have been a few screen revisions on the 13, so there's a decent chance that a better screen will be available eventually on the 12 as an upgrade.
      • dheera 4mo ago
        Framework 13 is close to 100% sRGB which is important for any kind of creative work or photo editing. Framework 12 screen is only 66% which is pretty terrible color reproduction. You edit something and it ends up looking like something else on the gold standard consumer devices.
• artooro 4mo ago
  I understand Jeff's argument, but he is missing the fact that one of the features of the Framework 12 is the modularity of the components. So if that is not a valued feature in this scenario, sure it's hard to justify.
  • hellisothers 4mo ago
    I love building and upgrading stuff as well as paying (much) more for tools that will last. But this is a laptop not a socket set, paying (a lot) more for worse performance up front makes absolutely no sense. Seems like the argument should be the Framework 12 just shouldn’t exist.
  • GeekyBear 4mo ago
    > he is missing the fact that one of the features of the Framework 12 is the modularity of the components He does explicitly make that point. > The biggest win is the modular ports.
  • ndiddy 4mo ago
    I think what makes the perspective in the article interesting is that buying individual components a la carte isn't a good value in today's market. Sure you can upgrade the RAM and SSD in the Framework, but 16 GB of laptop DDR5 is $200 and a 1 TB 2230 SSD is another $200. The question becomes, is it worth it to spend 40% more for a laptop with 40% less performance (as well as worse build quality, a worse screen, worse speakers, worse battery life, and running hotter) so you can have the potential to spend half the price of the laptop to upgrade it in the future?
• DeathArrow 4mo ago
  What's next, in 2027 will they release laptops with 4GB RAM? Are we going backwards?
  • topaz0 4mo ago
    Let's hope software gets enough less bloated to make that workable.
    • tracker1 4mo ago
      Maybe... While less than perfect, I think even moving to shared browser runtimes like Tauri and similar are a boost over Electron. Not to mention shifting backend work to Rust over JS/TS. There's a lot of performance on the table to gain without even dramatically changing most of the application UI/UX.
      • argee 4mo ago
        That’s a marketing myth. https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/issues/5889 https://github.com/tauri-apps/tauri/issues/5889
        • tracker1 4mo ago
          Not so much a myth as understanding that shared libraries only really benefit resource use at runtime with multiple apps using them. Which depends on the apps you use.
  • dijit 4mo ago
    To be honest, I am currently living with major Schadenfreude regarding ram costs. For literally years, SV companies have had a "ship fast, fuck the users" mentality when it comes to resource usage, as if software is written more often than it's run. Finally having some constrained supply of memory will force people to actually build software that can be reasonably used on 5 year old hardware (which would otherwise be perfectly servicable). Slack from 2015 doesn't meaningfully add anything over Slack from 2025 yet I need 3x the RAM to run it. Teams is worse somehow.
• __s 4mo ago
  but I can't run Arch on the neo. literally unplayable I have a fw13, best Linux laptop I've ever had, & I've bought System76 in the past
• Aurornis 4mo ago
  I love that Framework exists and I hope they succeed. I have been recommending them to friends and family who are looking for Windows or Linux laptops, though with some reservations due to the problems with a couple of their models. However I don't see the value in the Framework 12 over a MacBook Neo if someone isn't choosing by OS first. The $499 MacBook Neo is just so good for the price and so well built. The $499 price is the education price, which is relevant for the student in the story. The upgradeability is a benefit of the Framework 12, but look at the premium you pay for that option: $799 versus $499 is a 60% premium paid up front. You could sell the MacBook Neo for $200 in a couple years and buy a next-generation MacBook Neo for probably a very similar financial to buying the Framework 12 and not upgrading it.
  • cromka 4mo ago
    This. People really underestimate or straight up ignore resale value of Apple products. Just because you can upgrade a Framework laptop it doesn't make it a better value over the long term.
    • gosub100 4mo ago
      Can't believe the cost of the trash can mac pros. I always wanted one and put it on my long term to-do list, but they're still $500+. Even if they can be had for less, I won't buy one because my tolerance for tinkering has since dwindled. But it's quite a testament that they are still that expensive.
      • mingus88 4mo ago
        I mean, you have always wanted one. Can you say the same thing about any other PC? You understand the demand for them. It’s you.
        • mrhottakes 4mo ago
          Correct, the demand is effectively zero because the people that want them absolutely won't buy them.
• jmclnx 4mo ago
  From the screen prints of the display, I like the colors better on the framework. But I would agree that it could be due to some very minor issues with my eyes if more people like the Apple display colors better :)
• mixmastamyk 4mo ago
  Uncles don’t let relatives buy less than 16gb ram. That has been my standard since ~2010 and our 2013 mbp is still running fine because I insisted on it. I prefer FW for freedom reasons, that’s worth a few hundred as well as the ram. Would also wait for the new intel chipset that is more efficient however. Finally I think the FW 12 is weirdly positioned, as the 13 is already thin and light. For a tablet, I recommend the Star Labs Starlite instead. Both in same package? Clunky. Guess I’d recommend a used FW 13 and Starlite instead. That’s what I have now and no real reason to upgrade, and freedom to tinker is off the charts, perfect for a student.
  • Mashimo 4mo ago
    > Uncles don’t let relatives buy less than 16gb ram. That has been my standard since ~2010 and our 2013 mbp is still running fine because I insisted on it. Just last weekend I bought 8gb ram thinkpad t14 for an elderly relative. 240 EUR. It replaces his thinkpad x220 where the fan and ssd slowly dies. I doubt it becomes an issue, and if it does then I can upgrade it later.
    • mixmastamyk 4mo ago
      You can do it once and spend an extra hundred dollars or do it twice, including occasional restrictions to the user. Poor tradeoff imho. This is a young person with a long life ahead, we shouldn’t buy disposable ewaste with a short life.
      • Mashimo 4mo ago
        > we shouldn’t buy disposable ewaste with a short life. Indeed. That makes two of us.
      • NicuCalcea 4mo ago
        Someone has to buy that (presumably second-hand) laptop to prevent it from becoming e-waste. 8GB can be plenty for a student, most don't need much beyond a browser and PowerPoint. Many of my university colleagues were using new $5,000+ MacBook Pros exclusively for Google Docs, that seems more wasteful to me.
• 2OEH8eoCRo0 4mo ago
  I don't give a shit how fast and cheap the Neo is because I can't install the software I want/need on it or use it how I want.
  • jeffbee 4mo ago
    This is, if crude, the correct take. You always choose your applications first, then the operating system best suited for them, then the hardware platform.
  • rjrjrjrj 4mo ago
    Such as? Feels like the Neo covers pretty much all the bases: browsers like Chrome, Firefox, and alternatives IDEs like VSCode, IntelliJ, Eclipse open source heavy hitters like QGIS, Blender, Ghostty, even Gimp unix command line tools via HomeBrew, etc commercial suites like MS Office and Adobe
    • deleted 4mo ago
      [deleted]
    • MarsIronPI 4mo ago
      For me it'd be EXWM. I can't run my normal X11 window manager on MacOS.
• Shalomboy 4mo ago
  It is such a shame, too, because what Framework has achieved at this pricepoint should be commended. The fact that their business can sustain a lower-margin SKU like the Framework 12 is nothing short of extraordinary! But wow, the MacBook Neo threw a bomb into the low-end market.
• regularfry 4mo ago
  > The GPU fares poorly on Intel's side 'Twas ever thus. I really wish we had a better baseline default without having to reach for NVidia/AMD.
  • BizarroLand 4mo ago
    Intel's iGPU has gotten better over the years, but an external is always going to have vastly more capability than an internal one. That being said, for retro gaming or even playing games from the mid 2010's, the iGPU in a modern intel chip should do well enough.
• antonf 4mo ago
  The problem with Apple laptop is few years into the future - it's what will happen when Apple drop support for this hardware in OS X. Even if Asahi Linux or similar will be in a good enough state, you will still have to go through pain of adjusting to new system, moving data, figuring out how to access your iCloud/time machine/etc... Unfortunately for Framework, people who think this way make poor customers - can't justify buying Framework while my Lenovo X230 is working fine.
  • mattbillenstein 4mo ago
    I tried using refurb'd Thinkpads as my travel machine for a long time - they're very brittle hard to fix laptops - kinda like Macbooks. The Framework on the other hand is so easy to work on and get parts for - I know this isn't probably a main selling point for most users, but if you need this, Framework is like the only game in town.
• racl101 4mo ago
  Never understood the people who keep saying Macbooks are expensive. They make it sound like unreasonably expensive. Sure maybe before the Intel Macs in 2006. But for the last 20 years they've been not the cheapest but not the most expensive either. And when you factor all the time you waste on Windows, especially at the time Windows Vista, which had insane memory requirements, and compared them to Mac Os (X at the time) which ran pretty good on the cheapest models, and factored in the fact that OS upgrades were free, it ended up being on par if not better proposition. (Assuming you're not trying to run some exclusively Windows software on it or gaming). And with the MacBook Neo. Forget it about it. It's almost, just almost a foregone conclusion for an entry machine that it is a much better proposition. Does Apple have a lot of overpriced products. Yes, yes they do. But they it also doesn't mean you had to buy it either.
  • devmor 4mo ago
    MacBooks are only expensive when you need performance upgrades, the base models are really not that bad for what you get. But if you want to add a little more to your spec sheet, you might as well go somewhere else.
    • racl101 4mo ago
      That's true. Even a slight memory or storage bump up is more than if you were to DIY. I guess convenience is where they get you.
  • tracker1 4mo ago
    They get pretty expensive when you bump the ram and storage... I mean, it's less noticeable in today's market, but it was pretty rough... IIRC my M1 Air cost close to $3k with the extra memory, storage and 3 years of apple care, vs something like $1300 base price iirc. Similar for prior Macbook Pros I've had. If you can get by with a base model, they've been an okay deal.. and as mentioned a lot of the build features, display, touchpad, etc. are top of the line, best in class. But before the Neo, I'd still often pick a Lenovo Ideapad or similar for ~$500 or so first, and still might for more ram/storage. Mac is really good and the ram performance is generally better than slotted ram, so that helps a lot. It doesn't help, however if you want to run a VM/Docker or things that allocate/isolate memory usage away from native apps. I haven't even had a system with less than 16gb ram since before 2009... I've used as much as 70gb of memory with certain workloads on my desktop (though usually not nearly that much), but it's nice to have if/when you do need it without thrashing the storage drive.
• taude 4mo ago
  I really want a Framework 12, but not in current incarnation. Hoping for an upgrade with aluminum body. I don't mind the pricepoint. But didn't want a plastic notebook at this point. Want a great couch computer for surfing the net, ssh'ing to machines, writing, etc.... What I surprisingly really miss, is my macbook air 11". But probably won't be surprised if I end up with a Framework 13 Pro once they're caught up on delivery. I'm really hoping they have an announced 12 revision by then, though.
  • cassianoleal 4mo ago
    I had a MacBook Air 11" back in the day. 2nd or 3rd generation, I can't remember. The one that didn't stutter on YouTube. Amazing machine! I had always wished the screen was slightly bigger though. The insanely large bezel was a waste of space.
    • geerlingguy 4mo ago
      MacBook Air 11" form factor with 12" retina display (with thinner bezels) and M1 or A19 would be peak portability for me.
  • mixmastamyk 4mo ago
    And Panther Lake or competitive AMD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_Lake_(microprocessor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_Lake_(microprocessor)
• j45 4mo ago
  The 12" footprint is really unique and useful. Anyone who has held or used a 12" Macbook Retina knows this. Right about 2 LB, and very thin. They make amazing second or primary laptops depending on how mobile/flexible you want to be. The piece the Framework 12 and Neo are missing is the weight and thickness, but they will be able to get there. If the Framework 12 had been thin and light, I would likely be holding one
• tracker1 4mo ago
  Now upgrade both options to 16gb of ram so you can run Docker or a VM. Oops.
• quickquack 4mo ago
  I have a Framework 12 and I absolutely love it. It's cute and super portable, and the 12-inch form factor is just perfect. Sure, the hardware might not be the newest, but it's more than enough for me since I mostly do remote development. Plus, it has 48 GB of RAM, which lets me load the entire system into memory, making it feel super responsive. But what I love most is how durable it is, which matters a lot because I'm honestly pretty careless with my stuff. Just yesterday, I grabbed my backpack off the table without realizing it was open. My Framework went flying across the entire room and slammed into the wall, and there wasn't even a single scratch on it. An aluminum laptop would've had a nasty dent at the very least. And even if the whole frame had shattered, I could just order a new one for 55 dollars. Same story with the keyboard. One of the keys was making this annoying clicking sound, so I just detached it, stuck a little piece of tape underneath, and it was good as new. I only felt comfortable doing that because I knew that worst case, I could get a whole new keyboard for 55 dollars. Honestly, not having to handle my laptop carefully is worth so much to me. I also don't stress about battery care, whatever to preserve long-term battery life, because replacing the battery costs, you guessed it, 55 dollars.
  • sekh60 4mo ago
    The repair ability is why I went with a Framework. My last two laptops had keyboards that lasted until a few months after the warranty. Rest of the laptop works, but I can't find replacement keyboards at a reasonable price. So a framework, and I bought a spare keyboard upfront on the off chance they go bankrupt.
• trynumber9 4mo ago
  What's the real cause of them being unable to price competitively? Is it DRAM, NAND flash storage, SoC cost, simply scale?
  • mschuster91 4mo ago
    Efficiencies of scale and experience, on multiple levels. Component sourcing is the most obvious thing - Apple is known to buy up inventory years in advance for example and at insane quantities. TSMC's last new node? Apple paid billions to be the initial and, most importantly, exclusive customer. With hundreds of billions of dollars in cash and liquid assets, Apple can afford to sit on "dead money" for years - a small shop like Framework can't. As for the Neo specifically, this thing shouldn't even exist, but Apple found themselves sitting on a stash of half defective iPhone SoCs. But instead of trashing them, they effectively recreated the netbook market segment...
    • LarsDu88 4mo ago
      The MacBook Neo is just the response to the question of "what do we do with all these binned iPhone chips without making yet another even lower cost iPhone?" It's literally recycling Apple's garbage.
      • dd8601fn 4mo ago
        > It's literally recycling Apple's garbage. …and still blows the doors off anything in its market.
  • well_ackshually 4mo ago
    All of these, and more. Macbook Neos benefit from all the hardware that Apple makes in-house, reusing CPUs that they already make for iPhones but didn't make the cut, have zero upgradeability, benefit from massive economies of scale, contracts are already signed in advance, the delivery and logistics of an existing chain... Framework has to go talk to Intel and AMD, get parts shipped, assembled onto a motherboard that they have to make themselves and ordered in very low amounts then shipped all to their fulfillment center, then fedexed, have to source components... Even not taking into account the fact that Apple already has all of the hardware made or available in-house, just the supply and logistics chain is an easy 10% of the final price.
• ddxv 4mo ago
  I wish Framework had released a gamepad or a printer instead of a keyboard. I get that they need to expand their ecosystem and revenue stream, but keyboard just wasn't it for me. There are so many good reliable cheap keyboards already, though I guess none with the touchpad, but again just not for me. The gamepad I think would have been the killer device. Look at how much attention the steam gamepad gets. Sure, I have two gamepads already and I use them to play games on a dedicated (framework) computer hooked up to the living room TV. But guess what doesn't work? Turning the computer/TV on with the gamepad. It's so small, but so frustrating, also anytime the screens go off or sleep. So I have to keep a little $10 wireless keyboard there to turn the TV on / wake the computer. My understanding is this is what holds it (and all other gamepads) back: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/SoftwareFirmwareIssueTracker/issues/129 https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/SoftwareFirmwareIssueTr... Steam is going to get there by having both the gamepad + the computer which then makes it possible to workout the various TV implementations.
  • vaylian 4mo ago
    > or a printer Someone else is doing that: https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-tools/open-printer
  • l72 4mo ago
    I know nothing about this, but they do seem to have a gamepad: https://frame.work/products/8bitdo-ultimate-2c-wireless-controller?v=FRANZA0003 https://frame.work/products/8bitdo-ultimate-2c-wireless-cont...
    • jerlam 4mo ago
      That's not made by Framework, they're just reselling it.
    • starkparker 4mo ago
      it's an 8BitDo product in the Framework store that wasn't designed or manufactured by Framework
• LarsDu88 4mo ago
  What Framework is trying to do feels like something that would've made more sense 10 years ago. And the reason for that is b/c of Moore's Law approaching its end. The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU. The fact that Apple can co-design their silicon such that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a major advantage over competitors. There are also latency and bandwidth benefits how they setup their RAM just from pure physics. And chip manufacturing is moving towards chiplets where you have cores manufactured separately and then wired together at nanoscale level on top of a silicon interposer. The current best-practice unfortunately is closer to Apple's "hemetically sealed appliance" philosophy, and not the "I build my own PC" philosophy. When you have CPU, GPU, and even DRAM sitting on the same "die" the only things you're going to be swapping out on your Framework laptop are going to be relatively trivial.
  • bhouston 4mo ago
    > CPU, GPU, and even DRAM sitting on the same "die" This is actually great. The laptop body stays the same and you swap out a small mini circuit board that has the CPU + GPU + DRAM on it. This is the point of the Framework laptops. They are just unfortunately stuck with non-Apple parts and thus are slow / inefficient. Maybe Qualcomm can make a motherboard for Framework high end laptops with their Snapdragon X2 Elite Extreme ARM-based CPUs that are supposedly competitive with Apple's M4 offerings? And then offer a cut down Qualcomm mobile phone CPU + GPU + DRAM offering for the Framework 12 so that it can compete on price/performance with the MacBook Neo? I think you need to complete with Apple with the right equivalents.
    • LarsDu88 4mo ago
      Funny thing is, the circuit board on the Neo is barely smaller than that of the lowest end iPhone. The only remaining big cost item swappable item at that point is the display. The benefits of modularity begin to get outweighed by the costs when 85% of the cost of the machine needs to be swapped out with each upgrade. For consumers, why would they not simply opt to spend the rest of the 15% to get a whole new computer?
• petermcneeley 4mo ago
  Isnt the reason to by a Framework (or similar) because you would not want to be part of Apple's ecosystem? Why would benchmarks even matter here?
  • 46493168 4mo ago
    Framework needs an audience bigger than that because mostly people don't think in terms of ecosystem, they think in terms of 'does it do what I want for a cost I want to pay' and Apple wins on this.
    • AshamedCaptain 4mo ago
      This is why no one buys Windows laptops I guess.
      • 46493168 4mo ago
        Windows is the most popular OS for laptops in the US precisely because it does what people want for a price they want to pay.
        • beart 4mo ago
          That statement doesn't stand on its own. For example, the most popular OS for laptops at my place of work is Windows. It has very little to do with what people want or price. It has almost everything to do with ecosystem lock in. A significant portion of windows laptop market share comes from corporate purchases.
        • sgarman 4mo ago
          Is this totally true? There is advertising, marketing spend and retail shelf space. Surely it's more complex than "solves users problem at price point."
          • 46493168 4mo ago
            Advertising and marketing spend exist to make people aware of the device's capabilities and its price. I would be surprised to find that any consumer chooses a device because of its marketing spend and retail shelf space.
• awakeasleep 4mo ago
  I don't like the comparison's fundamental assumption that they're addressing the same market. If these are both addressing the same market then yes of course the Neo wins. But I think actually one of these is for linux nerds and one is for the masses who barely understand what OS is running on it.
  • Analemma_ 4mo ago
    There is a segment of Framework's customer base which is ride-or-die for Linux, but it's not their entire customer base: they still exist in a market where they need to compete on features and cost. Before the Neo, that wasn't too bad because they were more-or-less at parity with Apple on cost, close enough on polish, and better on repairability. But the Neo is just so cheap, and with Apple's level of polish it's really tough to compete with.
    • bigyabai 4mo ago
      The Neo costs the same as an on-sale Macbook Air, but doesn't support Asahi Linux. If any Framework customers were tempted by Apple hardware, they would have bought the Air a year ago and probably look at the Neo like it's a Fischer-Price laptop. Cost and polish aren't going to push sales for this market segment.
  • Havoc 4mo ago
    If you've got a device that is both cheaper and more performant then there is very little room for "different markets" arguments. >linux nerds Is unfortunately not enough to carry a product Framework (and windows flavour laptops) will need to respond to the neo. Something along qualcomm's snapdragon is probably the best bet
    • makeitdouble 4mo ago
      > Framework (and windows flavour laptops) will need to respond to the neo. Framework doesn't even sell in half markets Apple is in (They only manage 40 or so countries [0]), they can't afford to fight race to the bottom battles. The Neo exists because Apple has crazy economy of scale and a stranglehold on chip supply, smaller makers should be fighting on other grounds. [0] https://knowledgebase.frame.work/what-countries-and-regions-do-you-ship-to-r1899ikiO https://knowledgebase.frame.work/what-countries-and-regions-...
• Scarbutt 4mo ago
  You can replace Framework with Dell, HP, Lenovo in the title. Why pick on Framework?
  • fishgoesblub 4mo ago
    More views.
• deng 4mo ago
  Well, if Apple killed it, Lenovo killed it even more. I recently was looking for a laptop for a student. The Lenovo E14 Gen7 is 800 Euros here in Germany (where prices are always higher, the MacBook Neo is 700 Euros), it has 16GB of RAM, 1TB SSD, a 2.8k IPS display, a Intel Ultra5 12core CPU, and it has a repairability score of 9/10 from ifixit. Framework doesn't even come close to that package.
  • joe_mamba 4mo ago
    Same thought, as an owner of a similar Lenovo, that's top bang for the buck. Also, matte screen and hinge that opens 180 degrees is something the Neo and most Macs doesn't have. Though I assume the Apple clientele is always different than those shopping for PCs, and doesn't care about specs, they just want MacOS and the Apple ecosystem, most likely they already have an iPhone or are planning to get one anyway so then a Macbook is the only thing on their radar. Those people aren't really shopping for PCs anyway unless they need some Windows/Linux exclusive apps like CAD/CAE. But if you want to run linux and game then that Lenovo would be a good deal. Similar to the Framework, it has its own niche clientele who values the company motto, tinkering and repairability aspects way more than the value proposition. Most likely they run Linux too. There's something for everyone.
    • pseudosavant 4mo ago
      It is funny how Mac OS is a draw for some, when it is the main reason I don't use a Mac. Their hardware is excellent, but when I've tried using a Mac as my main machine, my productivity suffered. The only part of the Apple ecosystem I wish I could get on Windows is iMessage, and maybe FaceTime.
      • Zak 4mo ago
        > The only part of the Apple ecosystem I wish I could get on Windows is iMessage, and maybe FaceTime. It annoys me that these are such a draw. There are a dozen other viable messaging and video call apps, but there's always someone who feels like spending two minutes to install and activate one is a major imposition.
• whimblepop 4mo ago
  I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The latest laptops from Framework meet all of those requirements, and I'm excited to buy one after I've saved up enough money. I've missed Plasma for a long time. At the same time, I wouldn't even consider a MacBook Neo.
  • joe_mamba 4mo ago
    >I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. DHH showed the Framework laptops with latest Intel Panther Lake SoCs having similar battery life to AS Macs (~14 hours) under Omarchy linux while gaming benchmarks put their iGPUs in line or better than AMD's Ryzne SoCs at gaming. The era of long battery life being the USP feature exclusive to Macbooks is slowly going away, especially if AMD pulls a similar move and heats up the competition. Once the chip shortage from AI datacenters bubble pops, we could see even better SoCs from Intel, AMD, and even Qualcomm and Nvidia could join the ARM laptop battle in a serious way. X86_amd64 + Linux let's goooo!
    • criddell 4mo ago
      Now they need to work on a fanless option. It would be nice to have at least one SKU be a silent machine with no moving parts.
      • rbanffy 4mo ago
        That, in the x86 universe, has some heavy penalties in performance terms. I got myself a fanless “student” laptop (another name for “rugged”, but sells for less) and, while performance is acceptable, it ain’t fast - like a 10 year old i3.
        • 4mo ago
• robspairpears 4mo ago
  Bought the Framework 12 as my personal daily driver (limited hobby projects, Obsidian, light browsing) and for the hardware to grow with my use cases. So even if I could get more bang for my buck with a Neo (yeah, I could), the tinkerability and repairability win over raw specs for what I actually use it for. Did I pay more for a less polished, less powerful machine? Yep. Is it enjoyable to use and fully capable of meeting my requirements? Yep. Came to bikeshed but the video was more nuanced and fair than this title.
  • gorjusborg 4mo ago
    > Came to bikeshed but the video was more nuanced and fair than this title. Same here. It isn't hard to justify buying something like the Framework 12 in principle. I have bought multiple Framework computers and I continue to be a fan, not because it is the best in any single category. It is because I want computers to be bought and sold in the vision that the Framework folks seem to have. When I purchase a Framework I'm not purchasing a single computer. I'm buying a laptop-of-Theseus that I can continue to use throughout the future. When parts get broken, or a fancy new part is better, I buy the parts and upgrade it rather than buy a whole new device. I also run an operating system that is publicly developed and available. You won't see these things on a spec sheet or influencer demo.
  • fivetomidnight 4mo ago
    You could get 4 Lenovo X280 if you just need an overpowered notepad.
    • _hyn3 4mo ago
      Yeah, or a Macbook Neo! No need to disparage other people's use cases.
      • fivetomidnight 4mo ago
        Fair, vendor lock-in doesn't matter when it's a notepad. But that's still 3 X280s if all you need an overpowered notepad. It's my daily driver for exactly that use case, so no disparage there. And it's still overpowered for that. But it's so tiny... Also don't buy new if it's not for (critical) business, I want to add.
• deleted 4mo ago
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• benoau 4mo ago
  As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Work can buy them for me but I won't spend my money on a platform like that anymore. Depending on how their Supreme Court argument goes in a few weeks I will stop buying an iPhone too, if they establish the precedent that any method of paying for Netflix deserves a $5/month fee then they will leverage that to extract the same fee everywhere else.
  • tencentshill 4mo ago
    When is reasonable to stop supporting a platform that only hinders the user experience? Should they have supported PPC emulation forever? x86 is on the way out in for most consumer devices. Apple is usually a bit early to drop technologies, but still acknowledges and fixes real mistakes (USB-C-only laptops and the associated keyboards) when they impact customer experience.
    • jbm 4mo ago
      > Should they have supported PPC emulation forever Yes.
      • ghostpepper 4mo ago
        Supporting everything forever is how you end up with Windows
        • idle_zealot 4mo ago
          Here I was thinking the problem with Windows was the dog-slow RAM hogs the team replaced most of the core applications with so they could serve web ads in the launcher and OS chrome. Silly me, the real problem with Windows is that it can run old apps if you still have the exe kicking around.
• Luker88 4mo ago
  Framework was never the best hardware given a fixed budget, but it is true that Apple prices have become more competitive in the latest releases. Still, few do the math of upgrading just the motherboard after a couple of years, vs buying a new laptop. Framework laptops have been retrocompatible for the last 6 years.
• worthless-trash 4mo ago
  Try upgrading your macbook neo..
• roughly 4mo ago
  A truck will always be a worse car than a car, the question is do you need a car or a truck? If you need a car, get a Neo, if you need a truck, get a Framework. They’re not competing past that initial question.
• drnick1 4mo ago
  The point of the Framework is to run Linux, and not to be part of Apple's ecosystem. I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission, report telemetry to Apple, upload anything to any "cloud" or request that I log into something. If you don't think this is a big deal, wait until an age or identity verification law is passed somewhere, and Apple will enforce it against your will, on the computer that you bought and thought that you owned.
  • IshKebab 4mo ago
    That's not the only point of Framework. It also has to be a good laptop, and priced well enough that its repair/upgrade story actually makes sense.
  • teaearlgraycold 4mo ago
    > I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission Does this happen on MacOS? I don’t think I’ve experienced this.
    • kevinrineer 4mo ago
      For an MDM managed computer (JAMF I know for sure), it can be configured that way per a company policy. I am not 100% sure of the answer for a computer not managed by JAMF as I have not experienced a forced update while using a non-MDM managed Mac in ~1.5 years of using a pre-owned M1.
      • shepherdjerred 4mo ago
        An MDM device is not owned by the user. Of course you’re not going to have control over the device.
    • boobsbr 4mo ago
      I have a 2015 Air running El Capitain, never updated itself.
      • 4mo ago
• starkparker 4mo ago
  it remains my pet peeve that the 12 and 13 didn't find a clever way to share a mainboard by ditching the expansion cards on one side and just exposing the USBC ports. I would've sacrificed a lot to be able to just move my mainboard intact to another chassis if I needed the features. (which is exactly what I'll be doing with the 13 Pro, and IMO should've been a top goal of the 12)
• baq 4mo ago
  The title should read 'it's hard to justify buying any other laptop than the Neo in the sub $1000 space'. It's an absolute unit of a computer; the only more revolutionary box would be the M1 Air (or the original Air. maybe. my vote is on the M1.)
  • rjrjrjrj 4mo ago
    The original Air was not good. I think you mean the second gen Air (SSD-only, c2010), which was an incredible combination of price, performance, and usability.
• erelong 4mo ago
  Oh man I couldn't imagine comparing Framework / 12 to Apple / Neo: apples and oranges I would never bother with Apple's locked down proprietary software / hardware "ecosystem" For me it's hard justifying buying an Apple Neo ever basically as a contrary article
• Asmod4n 4mo ago
  The framework 12 is the ideal couch device for a developer, in ultra power saving mode it’s good enough for most websites, and it having a quickly getting hot 13th gen intel cpu means you also got a dev machine on the low end spectrum, not a vm, but an actual piece of hardware a typical user might have and not some 32 thread 64 gb monster
• abraxas 4mo ago
  I'm sorry but sometimes performance is not everything. Apple silicon - great except you are now in the Apple walled garden with all the consequences of it. Not to mention perpetually subpar developer experience without the rich Linux/Docker ecosystem. Yes, I know it is getting better but for developers there are still many warts. We just retired the last OSX laptops from my dev team because they were unproductive trying to work around some Docker limitations on OSX/Apple silicon.
• moralestapia 4mo ago
  >and is more repairable and upgradeable Oh no, that didn't matter to anyone[1], who would've thought! Meanwhile AAPL goes brrr ... It's sad because by the time other laptop manufacturers understand what people really want, Apple will have a 20 year lead on them. Hard to catch up with that. 1: Ok, 0.01% of consumers is not exactly "anyone" but close.
• andrepd 4mo ago
  I sincerely don't get the point of a post like this. You buy a Framework for repairability, flawless Linux support, ability to tinker, etc. Yes it would be extra nice if on top of everything it also had a faster CPU and a higher-density screen for cheaper than the aggressively priced entry model of corporation with the literal deepest pockets in the world. But is that a realistic complaint? I swear I don't get it.
• solomonb 4mo ago
  I would be interested in hearing from framework users who have gone through upgrade cycles on their laptops. General experiences with the process but also the costs. I had the first gen framework but had to return it to my old employer so I never went through an upgrade cycle. Also, this may be specific to the first generation but I had terrible battery life and overheating issues. If that carried over through upgrade cycles I would be pretty bummed out.
• nickjj 4mo ago
  You can get a lot of laptop in the ~$700 range if you look beyond Apple and Framework. I picked up a Nimo N155 for $570 back in September 2025. Today it's $700 due to RAM prices. Its specs are: 15" 1080p IPS display, AMD Ryzen 7 6800H (8 cores / 16 threads), 32 GB of DDR5 RAM, 1 TB NVME SSD with an iGPU Radeon 680M that can use up to 8 GB of memory all wrapped up into a metal case that weighs less than a MBP. It has a nice feeling backlight keyboard and a pretty good track pad. It comes with Windows 11 but it's all compatible with Linux too. Also it comes with a 2 year manufacturer's warranty. I've been using it quite a bit since I picked it up. Been running Arch Linux on it since day 1 with niri. It's really solid IMO.
• antisthenes 4mo ago
  It's insane we've somehow come back to 8GB RAM laptops in 2026. I have an old circa ~2012 era Dell Latitude Laptop with 16GB in it. While it may not be powerful enough to play modern games or anything and may not run Win 11 (although why would you?), it's certainly served me well for at least a full decade.
  • deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
• arikrahman 4mo ago
  They are different types of innovations, but Framework will be recurring excitment when your Godson gets to switch to a brand spanking new component.
• carlosjobim 4mo ago
  I hate this talk of "justify". Does everybody think they've become an accountant now? Buy your nephew both computers. Or buy the one he prefers. Or buy the one you prefer. People are allowed to own several computers. They are allowed to own several phones. They are allowed to install several web browsers and several text editors. Why are hackers agonizing so much about small and meaningless decisions, which they don't even have to take? You don't have to pick one or the other.
  • PhilipRoman 4mo ago
    Because it costs money? Believe it or not, most places don't pay you 6 digit salaries for shuffling around YAML.
    • carlosjobim 4mo ago
      "6 digit salaries" is the second most common hacker trope after "having to justify". You don't need a six digit salary to purchase two laptops.
• xixixao 4mo ago
  If Apple could give away a macbook neo to students, locked to the one individual student somehow, for free! they would still make money on it in the long run through the subsequent purchases over the person’s lifetime.
• ZiiS 4mo ago
  If a “repairable” laptop is in any way comparable to a high-volume model from the most successful laptop maker in history; one that is currently upending the whole industry and backed by an extra-generous education discount funded by huge cash reserves and a long-term strategy; then Framework has succeeded beyond its wildest dreams.
• francisofascii 4mo ago
  Next up...It's hard to justify buying a refundable airline ticket.
• mahdi7d1 4mo ago
  It's funny how people talk about macbook neo being the cheapest option that gives you access to macos (If my brain isn't fried that was one of the points mentioned in the video) cause when I was checking macbook neo's price a couple of weeks ago I almost did hit the purchase button then I remembered I can't use macbook and I'm too used to my arch config to change.
• schmiddim 4mo ago
  I wait for the day that Linux runs on newer Apple Silicon Hardware.
• Lammy 4mo ago
  > I had already put both laptops through my benchmark gauntlet Who needs to justify it? I make good money, fell in love with the Framework 12 at first sight, maxed it out with 64GiB RAM and 2TB SSD, and never even thought about “comparing” it to other companies' machines before buying. Something about that being a thief of joy? :p Peep my one-wire desk setup, and that awesome tablet mode: https://ibb.co/album/1YGRfh https://ibb.co/album/1YGRfh
  • entropie 4mo ago
    Two vertical displays are awesome.
• Lukas_Skywalker 4mo ago
  I have both the Framework 12 and the Framework 13. While I agree that the 12's display is not the best in class, it has one of the nicest touchpads I've ever used. It's hard to describe what makes the difference, but your fingers can glide nearly effortlessly across it. Both my Macbook and the FW13 have touchpads that feel a bit more "sticky".
• analogpixel 4mo ago
  - The Framework is more expensive : Kind of care, but not really if it's worth the money. - slower (in most cases) : I care about this. Blender needs to render. - louder (its fan ramps up quite often) : I care about this, it needs to be silent. - has a pretty poor display : I care about this, I don't want poor screen quality, poor color quality, poor text rendering. - but it is a touchscreen: could care less about this. - has a 360° hinge : care even less about this. - and is more repairable and upgradeable : really don't care about this at all, by the time this laptop needs to be upgraded, i'll just buy a new one anyways since the new parts probably won't work in the old machine. I'm thinking Apple might just be better at figuring out what specs actually matter, and which specs just make nerds happy but don't actually sell. (except liquid glass, they failed on that.)
  • kreyenborgi 4mo ago
    > the new parts probably won't work in the old machine Except with framework, where you can actually upgrade it piecewise. The CEO had a video showing of them doing it in like 10 minutes, part by part
    • analogpixel 4mo ago
      so in 8 years, I'll be able to buy a new CPU and it'll work in that old laptop?
      • kybernetikos 4mo ago
        Quite possibly yes. The level of upgradeability they've given their Framework 13 line over the years has been very impressive, and you can still put the latest CPU in the original chassis if you want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSxgCEpkiKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSxgCEpkiKM
  • nucleardog 4mo ago
    > I'm thinking Apple might just be better at figuring out what specs actually matter, and which specs just make nerds happy but don't actually sell. (except liquid glass, they failed on that.) Or maybe this is just a totally different product? I'd also call out, anecdotally, of the people in my life the non-technical people are interested in touch screens, don't care about speed as long as it runs a few Chrome tabs without feeling slow, and have literally never mentioned noise except to complain about some absolutely absurd "gaming" laptops. I've only ever heard the "nerds" talking about this stuff you're saying actually matters to the non-nerds. Maybe you're one of the nerds?
• joseph 4mo ago
  I haven't used the Framework 12, but I got a Framework 13. It really is modular and easy to repair, and they give great instructions and all the tools you need. For example, I dropped mine and bent the screen while carrying it. I ordered a new screen and when it arrived, it took maybe 15 minutes to replace. But the reason I dropped the laptop was because the hinge really sucked. It swings freely. So as I was carrying it, it suddenly swung wide open and threw off my balance. The caps lock key, which I remapped to control, got a crack in it because I use it a lot. Worst of all, it doesn't stay pressed, depending on its mood. So maybe I'm pressing ctrl-a to get to the beginning of a line and it decides to type the letter a instead. I really wanted to like it, but alas, the quality was too bad and I won't buy another one.
• m463 4mo ago
  This is a values misalignment. Or a purchaser misalignment. Corvette is a much better performer than a Toyota pickup because it is has better performance and weighs 100 lbs less. on the other hand, how much would a macbook neo with 48gb of memory and 2tb of ssd work out?
• kybernetikos 4mo ago
  I'm not sure that there's a lot of overlap between the target markets. Most schools near me require windows and require a stylus capable touch screen, so the mac is out of the running immediately. Even if it weren't, the fact that if you're giving a computer to a teen as their first machine to take to class and use every single day, you really, really, really want to be able to separately repair the screen and the ports. As always, you're paying a premium for the repairability, but if your teen cracks the screen a single time in three years of carrying it to class every day, then you've already saved money.
• porphyra 4mo ago
  Dell just announced an XPS 13 that is $699 (with a $599 education pricing) and fairly nice CNC machined body (1 kg) and nice screen (2560x1600 30-120 Hz 500 nit 100% DCI-P3). That could be a tempting alternative to the Macbook Neo for people who don't want to use macOS. Unfortunately for the Framework, it is no longer competitive even with other PC laptops. https://videocardz.com/newz/dell-unveils-xps-13-its-lightest-xps-laptop-yet-with-intel-wildcat-lake-starting-at-599 https://videocardz.com/newz/dell-unveils-xps-13-its-lightest...
  • Evidlo 4mo ago
    Keyboard looks pretty unpleasant.
  • literatepeople 4mo ago
    Looks neat for sure. However you are sacrificing some core performance on the CPU (and likely gpu) if these benchmarks of the Core 5 320 pan out. https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/18169809?baseline=17814942 https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/18169809?baseli... This is sort of the brilliance of Apple's supply chain moves here, they get to use binned iphone chips to sell higher performance computers in the lower cost bracket at margins impossible for the competition, and this is just an A18. When they upgrade it to the A19, it'll have 12GB of memory out of the box, giving it even more of an edge in this category. I don't see how others are going to be able to compete here, outside of just being "not apple", which in the entry level market is not enough.
• sandreas 4mo ago
  I agree, that the Framework 12 is too expensive - especially in comparison to the MacBook Neo. However, not everything can be a huge success. I think that the Framework 13 Pro shows that they are very capable in the premium segment and evolving as a company. I can't even imagine taking such a huge risk just to make a difference while still providing relatively small quantities (in comparison to the big players) of repairable devices... So in my opinion the money is not wasted. It's the price for being part of a change. In times of AI Slop, privacy nightmares and ads everywhere, I'm saving money for the Framework 13 Pro with Linux freedom right now and can't wait to get my hands on it.
• vondur 4mo ago
  It is really annoying how the x64 CPU's seem to constantly ramp up and down seemingly at random. I've been trying to tweak the fan curves on my Ryzen 9950x to avoid this but haven't been successful yet. Next stop is lowering the voltage once I figure out how to do it on my motherboard.
  • AnthonyMouse 4mo ago
    Try making the fan speed curve mostly flat in the middle at whatever fan speed keeps the system from hitting the far end of the temperature range under moderate usage. Let it ramp all the way down at idle and all the way up at all-core full load but anything in the middle gets a fixed medium speed. If that medium speed is too loud then what you need is a larger fan that provides that amount of cooling at a lower fan speed.
• DanieleSalatti 4mo ago
  > The problem is, for an overall worse experience, are you willing to pay 20-40% more? This is subjective. For me: yes. It buys me a lot, repairability and not being in the apple ecosystem are two things I value enough that it makes sense for me to go with Framework. It flips it to an overall better experience.
  • dangus 4mo ago
    Let’s not forget that Apple advertises paid subscriptions in notifications and settings pane alerts when you first buy the computer. They offer free trials which you can’t cancel without immediately ending the trial. (E.g., you can’t turn off auto-renewing without forfeiting the trial) A device that has ads and/or behavioral pushes to subscription services and costs $500 doesn’t really cost $500.
    • chromadon 4mo ago
      - "Let’s not forget that Apple advertises paid subscriptions in notifications and settings pane alerts when you first buy the computer." I've literally never seen an advert outside of a 3rd party app or website on any Apple device I've owned (many).
      • dangus 4mo ago
        When you buy a new Apple device it comes with a trial for Apple subscription services. My iPhone 17 Pro came with a News+ trial. If I didn’t cancel it it would charge me. There was no way to turn off auto-renew without forfeiting the remaining trial period, which is a dark pattern to encourage accidental payments. Mac devices also encourage things like documents in iCloud directly in settings which encourage migration to paid services. By default, Apple apps like Music have notifications for subscriptions. It’s not at the level of Windows 11 but it’s there when you’re really looking for it. Notifications in the system settings are not always critical update type of stuff, they are often semi-promotional.
        • daishi55 4mo ago
• dangus 4mo ago
  I think that there’s a little bit of pointlessness in comparing the Framework 12 to essentially the best laptop value of all time, a laptop that was basically unthinkable by the industry as a whole 6 months ago. The framework 12 is also oriented toward the kind of person who will not be happy with macOS. At least for the 13, over half of framework’s customers use Linux. More of their users are on Linux than on Windows. macOS is a commercial operating system that advertises paid subscriptions for you. Even my Apple TV started opening the TV app recently upon wake up which is new behavior. Apple is starting their subscription enshittification just like Windows 11. They see the end of hardware profitability and they like serving and and subscriptions more than building innovative hardware. Framed this way, the framework 12 is perhaps the best convertible Linux laptop in its price range. And in that sense, it’s not hard to justify. That said, framework’s clearly most competitive piece of hardware is the 13 Pro.
• codedokode 4mo ago
  What I don't like in Frameworks: Tiny screens. Imagine running a browser on a 13" screen, where part of screen space is used by taskbar, tab headers, address bar, sticky site header, cookie bar and you get less than 50% left for content. And of course site designer will use the largest font available so that you can fit only one paragraph of text into remaining space. Obviously you cannot fit VS Code or KDEnlive (it has so many panels!) into this small screen as well. I would prefer to buy 17" but sadly such laptops are considered "professional" and therefore overpriced so I had to settle with smaller screen size and cope with it. Small screens are only good for browsing social networks with post character limits and not for work. You could buy a monitor, but monitors aren't free and you cannot take it with you when travel (to the couch). They tend to use the most expensive CPUs which do not have the best cost/performance ratio. Mid-range, mid-low CPUs are better. Standard US-style keyboard. Doesn't have layout switch keys and extra keys for languages which have more than 26 letters which is like half of the world? To be fair, Macs or PCs don't have them either. PC manufacturers would rather add useless numpad than keys for foreign languages. Also, it doesn't have large arrow keys, and page up/page down and how do you scroll the code without them. I also do not like an idea with expansion cards for ports. Just add 6-8 USB ports, video and audio and you do not need any expansion modules which could save lot of money for the customers. Having 8 USB ports for free is better than having to buy 4 expansion modules. Also there is no need to customize color, it is waste of money Obviously it has lot of good features but currently it is more reasonable to buy a standard laptops for ⅓ price of 1 framework and install Linux. By the way, Macs seem to have no replaceable parts, like RAM or SSD. I wonder what Mac owners do when keys start falling out from keyboard, do they buy a new Mac, or keys on Macs never fall out? On PCs, I replace the keyboard every 2-3 years.
  • LelouBil 4mo ago
    You know they have a framework 16" ? And the keyboard of the 16 is running customizable firmware so you can have your layout switch key and whatever else you want ? It has 6 usb-c ports, that are the other end of the extension modules I bought it two years ago, I like it, but I still think it's too expensive for the actual hardware, but I liked funding the mission as well as receiving a product that I liked.
• ntnsndr 4mo ago
  I recently got a FW12 and, for a random data point, my kids love it: the color, the ability to do art on the touchscreen, the foldability. And I love all those things too, in addition to getting to play with various flavors of Linux on it. (Now running Fedora with Cosmic, but keeping GNOME for the handful of things Cosmic glitches out on.) It is just a fun computer, and I appreciate that playfulness about it every day.
• jordemort 4mo ago
  I would love a way to mute particular domains on this website
• advael 4mo ago
  For most of 2024, my main daily driver laptop was a little pink chinese laptop from 2019 I bought on amazon for roughly $200. It was marketed toward communication students. I put arch with cinnamon on it and it was pretty damn adequate for my needs, serviceable for browsing, watching videos, and even some dinky games, and of course fine for development, able to run tiny prototype code locally and ssh into more powerful servers (or cloud vms, whatever) when work was to be done for people paying for the compute You really don't need that much computer for most things, but most operating systems shove a lot of extras on there by default. Leaving windows on the thing obviously would have been untenable, but even ubuntu would probably chug on such a device. I think if the supply crunch continues this logic will make sense to more and more people I use a macbook for work now because I'm required to. It's just at every level an obnoxious operating system to work with, its permission model is a mess, every program on it is an ad and keeps trying to vie for my attention and I can't remove half of them. It bugs out often, including maxing out its application memory opening programs I didn't ask to open. It updates itself in an obnoxious way without my permission. It would be unusable if it didn't have a unix shell, and not everything on it is accessible from shell commands. Apple makes fundamentally incredible hardware, even if they're not perfect, but I would never intentionally buy something from them that didn't support getting out of their godawful software ecosystem
• ivanjermakov 4mo ago
  Imagine Neo running Linux. Maybe I should contribute to Asahi Linux.
• havblue 4mo ago
  So with the Framework you're paying a premium for maintainability. When the specs fall behind you can upgrade easily. With Apple you have a good laptop that will last awhile assuming you take very good care of it. And, of course, you can't upgrade or maintain it easily. I can't say I agree with the thesis at all. With unstable hardware prices and leveling performance improvements, flexibility is becoming a far more important goal.
• flakiness 4mo ago
  Bad timing. Not only MB Neo, but also the memory price hike. Whole selling point is vanishing, plus other makers are getting momentum reacting to Neo, further shadowing the FW12's existence. I hope they can come back with some update with newer chipset, either from Intel or Qualcomm. They were picking the worst Intel generation and I think it was mostly bad luck.
• xyzsparetimexyz 4mo ago
  Don't buy macbooks for young people. They want to be able to play games.
  • winter_blue 4mo ago
    Linux can run games better than both Windows and Mac. Steam's Proton derived from Steam now runs Windows games on Linux with better performance than Windows.
• spankibalt 4mo ago
  I consider the Framework 12 a conceptually flawed machine (especially given the setup of its maker) but, as a general computing option, it would still be of much better value to me than anything Apple had or has on offer; every hardware feature I value in general purpose mobile computers is implemented better in the machines of other builders. And the less said about the OS and the backing platform and company, the better.
• groundzeros2015 4mo ago
  I was shopping for a Linux machine recently and the offerings are awful. >$2000 machines with DDR4, 16 or even 8 GB, integrated GPU, no usb C. Apple is so far ahead right now in hardware.
• teravor 4mo ago
  framework is terrible value. you can buy something far better significantly cheaper: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=7840u&_sacat=0&_from=R40&LH_BIN=1&_sop=15 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=7840u&_sacat=0&_from=R4...
• sfRattan 4mo ago
  One factor I never see anyone talking about is that, for Framework laptops, the webcam is easily physically removable and the laptop will continue to function without it. That's the reason Framework is one of the only laptops I'll ever recommend to parents who ask about devices for children under the age of 15-16. No Internet-connected computing device before that age with an integrated, un-removable webcam. Sorry... You either know people who've been hurt by online manipulation or you don't, and the harm it's possible to do is much worse when a webcam is involved. Especially when parents aren't particularly computer savvy, kids should either have a mobile device without a camera or a desktop computer placed in a public part of the home. I know why most manufacturers don't make devices without integrated webcams anymore, but it really shouldn't be an auto-add feature to a mobile computer.
• zx8080 4mo ago
  Apple mac vs a premium Intel-based laptop is a choice between bad and worst. Why not AMD-based something like Thinkpad E- or L-series? It has solid linux support and no shitty Intel inside.
• deepsun 4mo ago
  Add to the price calculation some part that may break, or you want to upgrade after a year or two.
• thelastgallon 4mo ago
  If people like us who understand the long term value of having these things[1] available don't buy (and encourage others to buy), then we can't have nice things. I would always recommend students to buy anything other than apple (most Windows machines can now run Linux), run Linux on it and learn how to make it work. Todays students will be distributed all over the world and they have the skills to run Linux on the desktop, but far more importantly, make it work in the workplace ecosystem. Remember our governments are spending massive amounts of money buying Microsoft services and Apple products. In fact, we should also highly encourage students to use Linux phones. It is important to get the next generation ready to get out of all these locked in extractive ecosystems. [1] A standardized commodified market place of parts, available to assemble as new or as replacements for long term repair. There is no compelling reason modern machines (phones/laptops/desktops) can't have second and third lives. Remember how much Apple fights against repairability laws.
• swaits 4mo ago
  FW13 Pro is where it’s at.
• gt0 4mo ago
  The Framework 12 look lovely, I like the design a lot, but like other Framework computers, it's just far too expensive for what it is. The processor inside it is approaching 4 years old and wasn't a good processor at launch. I like how it looks, but I won't spend that much money on so little computer.
  • mixmastamyk 4mo ago
    I remember when Apple computers were shipping four year old CPUs not long ago... was a couple of the Pro workstations? Times have changed.
• pmontra 4mo ago
  A question to all developers working on 12 and 13 inches laptops. Do you spend most of your time connected to an external monitor or do you use the laptop one? My instinct is that there isn't enough space for two side by side windows of code but of course people working on 24" monitors would say the same about my 15.6" screen.
  • bilekas 4mo ago
    I had a smaller 13 inch laptop before that packed a punch but almost exclusively on the docking station and connected to screens, if I would on the sofa and thought I needed to do something really quick, I would grab it but it was painful. People just get used to things though, there are stories of people writing detailed packages on their phone sure! Even now on 17 inches, I still use it exlusively on the dock with screens!
  • h4ch1 4mo ago
    I still use a 2019 MBP and I can't work on just the laptop screen. My laptop screen usually has one fullscreen window at all times; tmux, or a browser window; all the main work gets done on the big screen.
• rock_artist 4mo ago
  Framework in general is focused on developers. I think the general target audience is different. So the customization and OS makes a huge difference for a developer. I was excited about the Neo. But the 8GB and storage felt too limiting for development. For daily / home/office this is where the competition is. And it’s not against the Framework. In raw experience even with latest Swift Air, Apple has a great device benefiting from their optimized and existing production line. We’re 5-6 years now from Apple silicon and yet the industry didn’t catch up completely. Battery life, heat, performance and even arm64 isn’t yet a first class citizen on Linux* or Windows. (* Linux is mostly power management assuming mobility experience is needed)
  • pjmlp 4mo ago
    A specific set of developers. Framework doesn't mean anything to game developers.
• tjoff 4mo ago
  Never understood these comparisons. If you want to run OS X, buy the mac. If not buy absolutely anything else. It is that simple. Though with 8GB of ram both of these machines are lemons. If you are on the fence, do not buy the mac. Because by god why would you want to trap yourself in that ecosystem.
• burgerone 4mo ago
  You really don't choose a Framework based on raw performance. You coose it because your values align with their philosophy. Same goes for a Fairphone
• unsungNovelty 4mo ago
  I don't like MacOS. Everytime I talk about setting up a custom PC, people say - buy Mac Mini. No. I don't want MacOS. It's soooo slow workflow wise. I was literally behind my manager for 2 whole years to get him to move me from Macbook Air 11 inch to a linux laptop. He was ready to give me Macbook Pro 2016. But not a Linux laptop, in an org which had them. And I went over his head to get a Linux laptop there. The slow workflow MacOS had. My goodness. But people always argued that I used a subpar Mac device as slow as Macbook Air 11. So you didn't have the full experience. blah blah blah. Guess what? I use a M3 Macbook Air with 24GB now. It is still is as bad as it was back then. And after the glass update, I has become abysmal. So no. I'll just get another Linux computer. Not a Mac. The only time I will voluntarily choose MacOs is if I had to choose between Windows and Mac. Then I will choose Mac 100% of the time. Or if I had to ever develop for Apple ecosystem as well.
  • Moldoteck 4mo ago
    Sorry for ignorance, but what workflows do you have that an M3 24gb mac feels slow? I got the basic M1 air and it still works fine
    • unsungNovelty 4mo ago
      It's not the hardware's fault. It's the software that I don't like. This was the case before and after Apple silicon.From the window management to how I need to setup my computer, everything is slow in MacOS. The UI interactions, how the apps needs to be managed. Everything. I am trying to make it faster. It's not customisable the way Linux is. Maybe I need to be a bit more clear, it is slow FOR ME. Not to mention, after the glass update, I find it very hard to use with respect to UI.
• kelnos 4mo ago
  It's annoying how short-term people think sometimes. With the Framework 12, sure, you're paying $750 up-front, but if you actually buy into the repairability/upgradeability angle (and if you don't, you maybe shouldn't be buying Framework), then in 3-4 years you might spend $200 or $300 on upgrades, and then in another 3-4 years another $200 or $300, and so on. Meanwhile, with the Neo, you might be buying a whole new one at $600 every 3-4 years. (Yes, I know how everyone says they've been using their Mac laptop for 15 years and it's still going strong, but if you're that person, then you don't care about upgradeability, so, again, you're probably not in Framework's target market. I also know lots of people who get a new Mac laptop every 3-4 years. And even a few who get one every 2 years, and that makes me sad.)
• liendolucas 4mo ago
  I think this is an unfair comparison. We are comparing a company valued on the order of trillion dollars with a very small company that is trying to put something different on the market. And yes sure, Apple is going to do way better than probably lots of manufacturers out there. From an OS standpoint is also a comparison that cannot be done. We are comparing MacOS with a Linux/Windows machine, which are all completely different beasts. One last and not minor point. By choosing Apple you're choosing not only to be locked down at the OS level but also on the hardware, which at least for me is a huge "no".
• ongy 4mo ago
  I have the Framework 12". It's hard to justify the price unless you put value to Framework's gimmicks and mission. There's no illusion that I'm not paying extra to vote with my wallet for sustainability. And I'm on with that.
• steve_taylor 4mo ago
  > But there's one performance-related area where the Framework pulls ahead—a little—and that's sustained performance. When running a heavy workload like HPL (a FP64 HPC task, that taxes the CPU and RAM constantly for many minutes), the Framework's fans allow it to throttle less than the Neo. People are seeing big gains in sustained performance on MacBook Neo with a simple thermal pad mod. The disadvantage is the underside of the Neo can get hot, but that's not an issue if it's sitting on a desk instead of your lap.
• willi59549879 4mo ago
  i mean the apple hardware might be better but the closed down software is a reason for me to never chose apple.
• mindcrash 4mo ago
  Why do people keep comparing Apples to Bananas (pun intended)? To be clear: These two are based on completely different system architectures. Ofcourse performance is different, and probably in favor of Apple. Especially because everything running on top of Apple Silicon is heavily optimized from the get-go to do so (due to hardcore system level optimization by the build chain and kernel engineering groups at Apple). If you want a excellent quasi open and self repairable/modifiable laptop running Linux there's probably nothing better on the market than a Framework laptop. But I might be a little bit biased because my main system is a Framework 16 running Gentoo with OpenRC. I can do everything I want with it including local AI, since the 6.x kernel series - including AMD NPU support - was released to stable, and AMD creating a excellent runtime to serve local AI models through AMD NPUs and GPUs called Lemonade (https://lemonade-server.ai/ https://lemonade-server.ai/) a little while back.
  • Retr0id 4mo ago
    Why is it unfair to compare two different CPU architectures?
• fouc 4mo ago
  > I think Framework's in a hard place with the Framework 12. Because it's an odd dimension, and because they wanted a full 360° hinge for tablet mode, they had to compromise on the display. Seems a bit weird that framework went with a 360 hinge w/ sub-par display & sub-par stylus. I wonder if there's any demand for that and what's the use case?
  • dinosaurdynasty 4mo ago
    I bought one because as far as I could find it is basically one of two 2-in-1's on the market that officially support Linux. (It replaced an old Android tablet and one of the original FW13's, both of which were getting old.)
• INTPenis 4mo ago
  Clickbait and he knows it We all have different needs, to me any Macintosh is just as hard to justify.
• krzyk 4mo ago
  It depends what OS you need/want. Some people don't want macos. I can install Windows or Linux on Framework.
• Zenst 4mo ago
  Saw this and does seem the screen tipped the balance here, which is understandable. Maybe if framework had a better screen without the touch overheads as an option(which I'm sure they could do being modular and upgradable)
• brachkow 4mo ago
  I don't understand the whole Framework thing (not 12, but in general): 1. For why would everyone want to use their laptop longer than MacBook lifespan? I'm typing this on a 5+ year old MacBook, which I expect will work for 3 more years. At this lifespan, it will be outdated by all means. I can replace it with a new one at the cost of $1-1.5k. If I had a Framework, I would gradually replace this with new parts? Well, only the mainboard takes a huge portion, or even more, of that. Screens became outdated too, by the way! 2. Repairability. Apple has bad repairability, in terms it glues the laptop from three parts. That means you can't do anything by yourself, but you can get a repair in a day or two in any point of the world. Can you fix your Framework in Tbilisi, Georgia? Last time I replaced the screen on a Mac, it cost me $300 including human work, the same as a Framework display costs. 3. MacBooks are just better in terms of performance and battery life per buck. They also tend to have the best screens, sound, and input. All of these are quite important for a laptop. I like the Framework premise; I would like to own a Framework as a Linux machine. But we should remember that these are hobbyist laptops with a product/cost ratio, and gimmicky features. All this discussion, amplified by voices of Apple-quarreled people like DHH, is stupid and kind of harmful – unexperienced people are ending up with expensive enthusiast devices (...or worse, with Dell XPS, you know). P.S. Please don't bring "computer ideology" into this – there is no walled garden on MacBooks like on other Apple devices. There are no services actively sold to you. I don't know where this argument is coming from. It is just a Unix-based computer, with good hardware and a nice-looking GUI. That said, I would definitely like to see comments of peope who actually used a MacBook and switched to Framework.
• deleted 4mo ago
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• dbgobrrr 4mo ago
  I regularly follow Jeff Geerling's blog and I value his opinion (usually), and I understand his points - he does make very good points in this article. However, the conclusion really irked me: > As I mention in my video, the Framework 12 isn't a bad laptop, it's just a bad value, especially in comparison to the Neo. Saying it is bad *value* is off the mark completely. There is, unless you are willing to use MacOS (which is a knock-out criteria for me: I love Apple hardware, but I cannot stand the OS and its artificial restrictions it imposes on the user). I own a FW12 and for me the main driver was a light laptop with good battery life[1], that I can install my own Linux on it, and the drivers all work from day one on a new laptop. The last bit is not taken for granted, I have been bitten many times by this (as I'm sure many of you did). On top of that, I decided I will not have any more android devices if I can choose otherwise[2] - and the FW12 is a good tablet replacement. It's great to watch videos with (tent mode). So for me, personally, it is great value, and the Neo would just become a secondary device I would very rarely use. Low utility means for me low value, YMMV. [1] The battery itself is great. I get real 10-12 hours of work on it regularly! But obviously intel CPU cannot rival Apple on power consumption, as you can see in the benchmarks in the article. [2] Android or iPhone are unfortunately a requirement for modern life. That's just so sad and I wish it would be legislated that apps that are needed (banking, civil services, etc.) *must* work on an alternate OS without the user hostility (I'd mention here: https://keepandroidopen.org/ https://keepandroidopen.org/)
  • docjay 4mo ago
    What you’re saying is valid, but it doesn’t take away from the “bad value” statement. Jeff was speaking value for money, you’re talking subjective utility value. Reviews cannot, and should not even try, to include that in their assessment. Sure, mention the limitation (and he did), but to assign a value to it for comparison is called “personal bias” and it’s no different than saying “it’s twice the hardware for half the price, but gloss black is a boring color, so 1 star.” Reviewers should always state value as “dollars per pound” and $1 for 10lbs is a better value than $1 for 5lbs; that you personally can’t fit 10lbs in your vault doesn’t change the assessment. The real problem is that “value” is an ambiguous word, so everyone is right and wrong while talking about the same thing entirely differently. Yeesh.
  • 4mo ago
• MisterTea 4mo ago
  How much of the hardware cost of the Neo and other Apple Silicon machines is subsidized by their other income streams? If Apple was simply selling computers, I highly doubt they would be as affordable as the Framework.
  • Cockbrand 4mo ago
    I in contrast highly doubt that Apple would release a potentially super popular product that doesn't create a profit. My personal assumption is that the profit margin for the MB Neo is quite low, but it still exists. Their advantage is that they have long running, very tight contracts with their suppliers, and extremely high vertical integration. They don't have to share a part of the profit margin with Intel or Microsoft. Also, they have a simple product range with comparatively few SKUs, and produce an extremely high volume of units, taking advantage of the economies of scale.
• ece 4mo ago
  I would like Framework to have a keyboard with normal size arrow keys. That is all.
• krschacht 4mo ago
  In the last 18 months I tried a Framework twice and both times ended up returning it. I was running Arch both times and had too many low level issues. I couldn’t get hibernation or sleep to work reliably. And about once a week I’d get a random freeze or crash that required me to reboot and lose all the windows I had open. I spent dozens of hours with Claude chasing things down, disabling various power management features, trying different kernels. I really appreciate how much Apple computers just work. I’ve since invested heavily in Karabiner, Aerospace, Superkey, and a few other utilities to get close to the level of customization I had in hyprland. I still miss the polish I used to have, but I can close my laptop lid, walk out the door, and 100% trust I’ll open the lid and resume work. That counts for a lot. I’m keeping an eye on Omarchy and Framework to see if they eventually solve all issues. Maybe in a couple years I’ll try again…
  • bigyabai 4mo ago
    Did you not try one of the officially supported distros first? https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/officially-supported-vs-compatible-linux-distributions-ByVPFgyTs https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/officially-supported-... In my experience, Arch and the AUR are not very reliable for identifying and respecting your system config. I've got a number of laptops that handle Arch very poorly but sing on Fedora or NixOS.
• Sasisundar09 4mo ago
  Modular hardware is a great concept, but local model development lives and dies by memory bandwidth. Apple’s unified memory architecture is a physical moat that current modular buses cannot bridge.
• Melatonic 4mo ago
  Doesn't the framework 12 use a pretty old Intel CPU and design? Better comparison would be the new 13 compared to a current MacBook Air.
• einpoklum 4mo ago
  People comparing expensive laptops and pretending they're cheap. Weird. Budget laptops are less than half the price of the MacBook Neo.
• cmxch 4mo ago
  Because you want something that runs more than macOS nor has privacy issues that Apple software does?
• dismalaf 4mo ago
  It's hard to justify Framework 12 existing. Framework 16 too. What's the point of making 3 different modular laptops where most of the pieces are specific to the model? You can't move the mobo or any component really from one to the other except for the USB pieces. What they really should have done is make all the models take the same mobo, batteries, keyboard, etc..., and then made a specific screen/hinge to turn the 13 into a tablet. Instead they fractured their own ecosystem and only the 13 (now 13 pro) feels like a polished product.
• tetsgima 4mo ago
  Since apple introduced M1 i dont see any point in buying a windows laptop especially if you need a laptop as your main pc A new macbook pro can get expensive, but its a thing that will last you for 5 years at least (people still use their M1 with touchbars and have no problem in doing so) meanwhile im not even sure a new windows laptop will survive 2 years without getting outdated or broken