11 ms·
Open Source as it gets in this space, top notch developer documentation, and prices insanely low, while delivering frontier model capabilities. So basically, th
by jari_mustonen 5mo ago
Open Source as it gets in this space, top notch developer documentation, and prices insanely low, while delivering frontier model capabilities. So basically, this is from hackers to hackers. Loving it!
Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency. It runs entirely on Huawei chips. In other words, Chinese ecosystem has delivered a complete AI stack. Like it or not, that's a big news. But what's there not to like when monopolies break down?
- MrDresden 5mo agoAll very impressive. And they'll get all that intellectual property beamed directly into their datacenters for analysis. Really smart (no sarcasm).
- slekker 5mo agoBut remember to not ask about Taiwan!
- man4 5mo ago[dead]
- spiderfarmer 5mo agoJust ask it for a summary of the USA’s role in Iran, Gaza, Lebanon and its recent threats against Panama, Cuba and Greenland! It might be able to keep track.
- libertine 5mo agoAre you implying that western models were manipulated to hide and distort those events, like they do with the Tiananmen Square event, and Taiwan?
- spiderfarmer 5mo agoLet's say I'm more outraged by the actual events.
- vkou 5mo agoAsk Gemini today if the United States is trying to destroy the nation of Iran, and it will feed you the (white-washed) party line, straight from the White House, with a bit of 'some people disagree' thrown in. No mention of America's threats of "Complete annihilation", "Killing a civlization", and all the rest. > Summary: The U.S. is currently engaged in an active war aimed at dismantling the Iranian government and its military capabilities, but it distinguishes this from destroying the country or its people. However, the humanitarian impact—including civilian casualties from airstrikes and the domestic crackdown by Iranian security forces—has led many international observers to warn that the campaign risks long-term instability and "state collapse" rather than a simple transition of power. It does do quite a bit better if you ask it about the genocide in Gaza, summarizing the case for it, and citing only token justifications from the guilty party. As of April 2026, Gemini is... For very obvious reasons, highly biased towards cultural consensus. If your cultural consensus is strong on some really messed up things, that's the outcome that it's going to give you.
- teiferer 5mo agoIsn't there a difference between the models output reflecting the mean of public discourse and the active adjustment of information by the government? Irrespective of how close the outcomes are to the actual facts, those two things have a different quality, don't they?
- vkou 5mo ago> Isn't there a difference between the models output reflecting the mean of public discourse and the active adjustment of information by the government? Not as much a difference as you would wish, as mean of public discourse is very actively managed, to our collective detriment, by a very small group of powerful people, which often includes the government. It's the nature of mass media, and the incestuous relationship between power and reach. They Thought They Were Free, and all that. By the time the 'mean of public discourse' centers on something incredibly stupid or awful, nobody can be arsed to figure out who planted that idea in our heads.
- 5mo ago
- jfjdhdjdbdb 5mo agoHistory is by definition his story.
- Bayart 5mo agoIt's not. It's an English pun on a Greek word, which roughly means "investigation".
- LinXitoW 5mo agoImagine eastern models were only trained on chinese official news. Would you call that an unbiased, uncensored LLM? Would it be practically different from just directly censoring the LLM? In the west, especially in the USA, rich capitalists and warmongers control the narrative put forth in the news, which gets fed to the LLMs, which results in what you could call auto-censorship. They manipulate the training data instead of censoring the model, but the result is the same.
- libertine 5mo agoAs far as I'm aware there's no media government control in democratic western countries (yet). The LLMs aren't trained on "official news", if there's such a thing in Western countries - at best government press releases, is that what you mean by "official news"? So I don't see how that's censoring/manipulation of an LLM. Like for example, Wikipedia is a Western construction and would never exist in China, or Russia, without government supervision (rendering it useless). When you say "rich capitalists and warmongers control the narrative", where does that happen? I mean practically. It's like your conception of western media is similar to China and Russia, where censorship, control and filters are applied. > They manipulate the training data instead of censoring the model, but the result is the same. Do you have any proof of this?
- jocro 5mo ago> When you say "rich capitalists and warmongers control the narrative", where does that happen? I mean practically. i don't agree with the hyperbolic nature of the op here but if you're sincerely interested in the question this is what chomsky and herman (imo quite persuasively) argue in Manufacturing Consent. attaching a profit motive to the distribution of new information, particularly in an economy that tends towards centralization of, necessarily biases what news is printed. it's certainly not as visually dramatic or directly controlled an effect as the prc's top-down model, but markets are effective.
- libertine 5mo agoBut that's just conflicting a lot of things that I don't think it's western manipulation and censorship of LLMs: - manufacturing consent isn't a silver bullet, and it's much harder now with the internet - how did it work for the current events? Gaza war, Venezuela, Canada, Greenland, Iran war? Not saying the administration didn't try, but again, it isn't a silver bullet and doesn't seem to have an impact on the vast majority of LLMs - maybe Grok is the exception because it was done with that intent. - information isn't centralized in western countries, though in the case of Trump he tries to centralize attention, successfully. But that doesn't seem to bend how events are portrait in reality and in LLMs. The thing is, a lot of people that got fed into anti western narrative use magical thinking to believe countries from USA, Europe, Japan, Australia are all organized - orchestrated by the US. This is insanity ofc, like, trade deals between these countries take years to be organized, but somehow everything is a conspiracy to be in the same informational tune?
- teiferer 5mo agoDoes all this insane behavior from the US justify the Chinese censorship?
- samrus 5mo agoOf course not. But its disengenuous to only mention one like the US is clearly th lesser of 2 evils
- teiferer 5mo agoIt's surely disingenuous to only criticize one actor and always stay silent or even defend another. But it's disengenuous as well if criticism on one actor is never accepted with the argument "but you didn't criticize Xyz as well!"
- spiderfarmer 5mo agoTaiwan: nothing happened. Iran:
- Lionga 5mo agoQuit a bit better then made to bomb little girl schools in Iran.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- tigrezno 5mo agoyou talk like there isn't censorship in american AIs, like Israel topics.
- unclejuan 5mo agoTo be fair I prefer the Chinese models censorship (yes, seriously) because if you ask certain topics they just don't answer instead of giving skewed answers.
- swingboy 5mo agoAsk a Chinese model about Taiwan, get denied. Ask an American model about Israel, get citizenship revoked and deported.
- hersko 5mo agoThat never happened
- Hello_News 5mo agoI agree
- eunos 5mo ago> China asks other country not to meddle with internal separatism > They also dont support separatism in my country Understandable.
- Markoff 5mo agopretty sure you can ask whatever you want and it will tell you official stance agreed by almost all countries in the world that Taiwan is part of China as it's recognized by your own country (I don't even know where are you from, but there is like 98% chance I'm right)
- spaceman_2020 5mo agoI can't wait for Taiwan to peacefully reunify with the mainland so the west with its constant war waging won't even have this talking point
- wallst07 5mo agoAre you Taiwanese? If not, your statement is a slap in the face to those citizens.
- spaceman_2020 5mo agoAlmost 40% of them voted for a party whose leader was just in Beijing to talk about reconcilliation
- danparsonson 5mo agoNearly 50% of US voters voted for the current administration last time - do you think all of them are on board with the Iran war? There are multiple reasons for a person to vote for a political party; China is a big issue in Taiwan but it's not the only issue.
- ifwinterco 5mo agoAs a Brit I'm here for it to be honest, I'm tired of America with everything that's going on. China is not perfect but a bit of competition is healthy and needed
- barrenko 5mo ago[flagged]
- HatchedLake721 5mo agoUK has the people but not the electric grid/infrastructure to compete. EU/France has Mistral.
- whywhywhywhy 5mo agoFrance has mistral and the energy infrastructure to compete, the EU has nothing.
- Cthulhu_ 5mo agoNot so much a trade war as basic economic forces, and it's been going on for much longer than that. When infrastructure improves, companies and customers can look further to get their stuff done. If it's cheaper to do your industrial or manufacturing work abroad and have it transported to your country, that just happens. The powers that be try to slow this down by banning imports outright (you can't for example import American chicken into Europe because of food safety laws), or high import taxes (Chinese EVs have a 50% import tax in Europe and the US to protect the local car manufacturers. Which is fair because the Chinese EV manufacturers are state-sponsored so their prices are unfair. Then again, western companies get billions in investor money to push the prices down).
- calgoo 5mo agoYou mean the west handed their industry to china over the last 15 years? Its not like the US is any better off in this. The EU is not a country, so you can't talk about it as if it was. Each country has their own companies and industries. There is AI in Europe, and its growing, however we might not be as "energetic" about destroying our countries to build giant data centers to serve our billionaire overlords. That does not mean that there is no investment, there is, including a bunch of American corporations like Amazon. But there is also a lot of corruption and bribing (lobbying - lets call it what it really is, no more whitewashing) going on around that too. So again, stop referring to EU as a country, we are not, and it just annoys any Europeans as it comes of as "Americans who don't understand the world outside of the USA".
- sudo_cowsay 5mo agoI sometimes wonder if there are any security risks with using Chinese LLMs. Is there?
- Hamuko 5mo agoThere must be. The executives at my company wouldn't have banned them all for no reason after all.
- dalemhurley 5mo agoTheoretically yes. It is entirely possible to poison the training data for a supply chain attack against vibe coders. The trick would be to make it extremely specific for a high value target so it is not picked up by a wide range of people. You could also target a specific open source project that is used by another widely used product. However there is so many factors involved beyond your control that it would not be a viable option compared to other possible security attacks.
- mazurnification 5mo agoBut propaganda or non ethical marketing - why not? (That is bias toward pointing to certain provider(s)).
- _blk 5mo agoWould be interesting to hook up a much simpler LLM as fact checker to see when errors are introduced. If I had to place a hidden target it'd probably be around RNGs or publicly exposed services..
- 2ndorderthought 5mo agoI believe this is possible but unlikely. I don't think a Chinese company trying to break down the US's stronghold in this field would do this short term. I think it is in their best interest to be cheaper, better, easier, and more trust worthy until competition looks silly. It's like suggesting BYD has a high likelihood of making their cars into weapons or something. It's not in the company or their countries interest to do that. Sure it could happen but I bet it would only happen in a targeted way. Why risk all credibility right now and engage in cyber warfare?
- ibic 5mo ago"Open Source" is the ultimate romance understood by software engineers.
- TrackerFF 5mo agoLet's see how long it takes before the big US AI companies start lobbying to outright ban use of Chinese AI, even the open source / local models. For "national security" reasons, of course.
- barnabee 5mo agoHopefully the US’ self imposed isolation will mean that when they do, they aren’t able to force the rest of the world to follow suit.
- chronc6393 5mo ago> Let's see how long it takes before the big US AI companies start lobbying to outright ban use of Chinese AI, even the open source / local models. For "national security" reasons, of course. Already do on EVs.
- 05 5mo ago..and drones https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-updates-covered-list-add-certain-uas-and-uas-components-0 https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-updates-covered-list-add-ce...
- wookmaster 5mo agoThis is already happening. My company just went through this
- Scroll_Swe 5mo ago? Every company should lock down AI and only whitelist allowed tools. We are "only" allowed Claude and MS Copilot for security reasons and cost reasons.
- zrn900 5mo agoThey already did - State Dept. launched global campaign against Deepseek.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- kitd 5mo agoI can't find any info on what exactly is open sourced. And in any case what does open source actually mean for an llm? It's not like you can look inside it to see what it's doing.
- gommm 5mo agoFor me open source means that the entire training data is open sourced as well as the code used for training it otherwise it's open weight. You can run it where you like but it's a black box. Nomic's models are good example of opensource.
- adammarples 5mo agoYes the weights are basically compiled code, compiled from the source data and the training code.
- SkyBelow 5mo agoEven with all training data provided, won't it still be a black box? Unless one trains it exactly the same, in the exact same order for each piece of data, potentially requiring the exact same hardware with specific optimizations disabled due to race conditions, etc., the final weights will be different, and so knowing if the original weights actually contain anything extra still leaves any released weights as a black box, no? There isn't an equivalent of reproducible builds for LLM weights, even if all of this was provided, right?
- adrian_b 5mo agoThe model is not "open source", but it is an open weights model. You can download it from the link given here at the top and you can run it on your own hardware, with whichever open-source harness you prefer, without having to worry about token cost or about subscription limits or about any future degradation in performance that you cannot control. The recent history has demonstrated that such risks are very significant. Being open weights is important for anyone who wants to use an LLM. Being open source is important only for a subset of those, who have the will, the knowledge and the means to train a model from its training data. Having access to the training data used by a model would be very nice, but the reality is that for a normal LLM user it is very beneficial to use an open-weights model with an open-source harness, but it would be much harder to exploit the advantage of having access to all the information about how the LLM has been created.
- trvz 5mo ago[flagged]
- khalic 5mo agoOpen weight and open source are not the same
- SquareWheel 5mo agoThis is a pretty banal comment at this point. Open source is the term used in the LLM community. It's common and understood. Nobody is going to release petabytes of copyrighted training data, so the distinction between open source vs weights is a rather pointless one.
- stefan_ 5mo agoFirst you steal all the code, then you want to redefine the term? Is it never enough with you AI guys? Where's the humility, where's the good?
- SquareWheel 5mo agoSorry, too busy "stealing code" to answer right now.
- finarch 5mo agolol
- khalic 5mo agoTell this to the Allen project, Apertus Project, SmoLLM, etc, etc, etc
- 8note 5mo agoits still a pointed one. "open source" keeps being redefined by people with wealth and power to restrict our computing rights. eventually its just gonna be "proprietary microsoft code that runs on microsoft servers, but you can see a portion of the results"
- SquareWheel 5mo ago
- laurentiurad 5mo agonot a full AI stack. Training still runs on NVIDIA chips.
- d3Xt3r 5mo ago> Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency. So does this mean I can run this on AMD? And on a consumer 9000 series card?
- randomgermanguy 5mo agoIf you found a rare 9000 card with 200+ GB of VRAM, sure
- HarHarVeryFunny 5mo agoIf you don't have the source code then it makes no difference. If you have the weights and are running some model via llama.cpp, then you are using whatever API llama.cpp is using, not the API that was used to train the model or that anyone else may be using to serve it.
- Eisenstein 5mo agoIf the card supports vulkan and the model has gguf weights. llamacpp has excellent vulkan support that is being actively developed and is not that far behind CUDA where speed is concerned. * https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/releases https://github.com/ggml-org/llama.cpp/releases
- frankdenbow 5mo agoJensen was saying this in that interview last week and the interviewer dismissed it.
- dzonga 5mo agoJensen Huang said this in his recent interview - that China has the best/most engineers, it has the chip making ability, it's a good thing they wanna build on a Nvidia stack - but if you push them they will build on an all Chinese stack - but the interviewer was being a numb head who kept parroting the propaganda of Western tech supremacy
- arcticfox 5mo agoReferring to the Dwarkesh interview clearly. Jensen came across as incredibly defensive and intentionally close-minded, shows that even billionaires suffer from "a man can't understand something if his paycheck depends on him not understanding it." Your assertion is silly: did Tesla selling electric cars into China stop them from delivering their own industry? They were going to develop their domestic industry regardless. We simply don't know the counterfactual, if they had unlimited access to Nvidia chips, how far ahead would their models be?
- awongh 5mo agoI thought Jensen’s comparison to Huawei’s cell phone hardware infra (towers and networking) to be an interesting comparison- that shutting them out of a market was one of the causes of their current position in the market. It made them more dominant in the end.
- nwienert 5mo agoNo counterfactual there either though.
- ionelaipatioaei 5mo ago"close-minded" are the stupid people that unironically believe in the EA crap
- solenoid0937 5mo ago> but if you push them they will build on an all Chinese stack That's alright. It delays them at least.
- nailer 5mo agoIt's also not fake open source like Metas models - https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1-0528 https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1-0528, the weights are actually under a real open source license, (MIT), see https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1-0528 https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1-0528
- nsoonhui 5mo agoSorry, but exactly where did you get the idea that DS V4 runs entirely on Huawei? I asked DS itself and it denied this. It says: 'Nvidia chips are absolutely used for DeepSeek V4. The reality is a pragmatic "both-and" strategy, not an "either-or."' And based on the DS V4 technical report (https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro/blob/main/DeepSeek_V4.pdf https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro/blob/main...), it is mentioned that: We validated the fine-grained EP scheme on both NVIDIA GPUs and HUAWEI Ascend NPUs platforms. Compared against strong non-fused baselines, it achieves 1.50 ~ 1.73× speedup for general inference workloads, and up to 1.96× for latency-sensitive scenarios such as RL rollouts and high-speed agent serving. (In all honesty I relied on DS to give me the above, so I haven't vetted the information in full.) It mentions that Nvidia is still used. It doesn't even mention that Huawei chips are used in production — only in testing and validation, yes.
- taytus 5mo ago>I asked DS itself and it denied this Bro, seriously?
- accountofthaha 5mo agoDoes the 'zero CUDA dependency' also count for running it on my own device? I have an AMD card, older model. Would love to have a small version of this running for coding purposes. Really nice to see the Chinese are competing this strongly with the rest of the world. Competition is always nice for the end-consumer.
- adrian_b 5mo agoThe model is open weights, so you can download it from the link given at the top. Then you can run it using some inference backend, e.g. llama.cpp, on any hardware supported by it. However, this is a big model so even if you quantize it you need a lot of memory to be able to run it. The alternative is to run it much more slowly, by storing the weights on an SSD. There have already been published some results about optimizing inference to work like this, and I expect that this will become more common in the future. There are cases when running slowly a better model can still be preferable to running quickly a model that gives poor results, especially when you do not use it conversationally, but to do some work with agents.
- wener 5mo agoAs a Chinese, I feel tiered, it's like the cold war, what is takes to keep competitive with every aspect, it's just another win for the country and the corp
- segmondy 5mo agoMy guess is Chinese govt is going to mandate that labs switch all future training and inference to Huawei. DeepSeek has shown it's possible. Once they are done, the rest of the world is going to be buying Huawei! I for one can't wait for a cheap Huawei GPU!
- melenaboija 5mo agoThe funniest thing is how Americans have been fooled with this stuff. This version of AI is mostly taking a public paper from 2017, investing in GPUs, and feeding it as much data as possible. So with a few computer scientists, no respect for intellectual property, and tons of money to burn, you have all the ingredients to create this technology. Sam Altman and friends did it, as did the Chinese. The difference is that the Americans have been hyping it up to the extreme with all these dramatic scenarios about what would happen if someone else got its hands on it. The Chinese made it public, among other things to show how fragile this is as a business and as a large part of the US stock market
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- wookmaster 5mo agoThe response from US corporations has been banning Chinese models claiming they’re spying or something.
- shimman 5mo agoYes, it's been widely well known that US corporations cannot compete fairly but require corporate welfare or US government to enforce military might over competitors.
- pb7 5mo ago>mostly taking a public paper from 2017 I love the implication that this paper just dropped out of thin air and not decades of private AI research funded by a US company. >The Chinese made it public, among other things to show how fragile this is as a business The Chinese distill US models, that's why they keep trailing close but never exceeding. It's easy to make things public when you didn't take on any of the cost of developing the technology. Stealing US IP and selling cheap copies has been China's MO for decades now.
- scronkfinkle 5mo ago> Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency Where did you read this? From what I read in the paper it appears to explicitly state that they used NVIDIA GPU's and their MegaMOE code, which is written in CUDA.
- shiftingleft 5mo agoIs it really the full pipeline running on Huawei hardware? That is training and inference? The report only talks about validating the "fine-grained EP scheme" on Huawei hardware.
- jug 5mo ago[dead]
- resters 5mo agoJust looked into buying some Chinese GPUs and it turns out it's not easy or even legal! Big WTF moment.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 5mo agoSame thing for Chinese EVs. America can't compete in the free market anymore
- AlanYx 5mo agoIn the US, yes, but Huawei has been gaining ground selling its SuperPod/Ascend turnkey solutions internationally, with some major recent wins in Thailand, Brazil, Egypt and Morocco.
- jug 5mo agoPrices are also expected to drop significantly in H2 as they move to Huawei Ascend 950 super nodes. Yes, even compared to this low price point. As before, the headline news with DeepSeek isn't in the benchmarks, but that they're competitive there while being gut churningly cheap for the Western AI industry.
- nabakin 5mo ago> Also, note that there's zero CUDA dependency. It runs entirely on Huawei chips. That is a huge claim to make with no evidence. I researched what you said, and I have found no statement to that effect in their paper[0], on huggingface[1], twitter[2], WeChat[3], or in their news release[4]. They only mention as a footnote in only the Chinese version of their news release that they plan to reduce inference costs with the Ascend 950 supernode when it releases[5]. The only mention of Huawei in their paper is that they validated a technique to lower interconnect bandwidth on Ascend NPUs and Nvidia GPUs[6]. [0] https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro/blob/main/DeepSeek_V4.pdf https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro/blob/main... [1] https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4-Pro [2] https://xcancel.com/deepseek_ai/status/2047516922263285776 https://xcancel.com/deepseek_ai/status/2047516922263285776 [3] https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/8bxXqS2R8Fx5-1TLDBiEDg https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/8bxXqS2R8Fx5-1TLDBiEDg [4] https://api-docs.deepseek.com/news/news260424 https://api-docs.deepseek.com/news/news260424 [5] https://api-docs.deepseek.com/zh-cn/img/v4-price.png https://api-docs.deepseek.com/zh-cn/img/v4-price.png [6] Page 16
- glenstein 5mo agoComments like this are why I go to the comments! I never would have thought to check. And while I'm here I want to note that I feel there's a big misunderstanding of what is and isn't demonstrated by DeepSeek. So far as I can tell the major (and important!) innovation is reproducing near-frontier level capabilities at a fraction of the cost, but it may be the case that iterating forward at the frontier is the costly thing and is a cost borne by Western companies and that nuance seems to get lost with DeepSeek. Which is not to say that as a matter of principle that non Western companies aren't sometimes capable of jumping into the lead (Kimi has been super impressive) but if GPT/Claude/etc "only" lead at the frontier with more expensive models, that's still a moat.
- kybernetikos 5mo agoIf you can get something almost as capable for a fiftieth of the price, in most cases you'll do that. You might still send a few tokens to the more expensive option for the exceptional, difficult cases, but that's maybe 10% of the tokens at most. I don't see how it'll be possible to keep spending what anthropic, openai, google etc are spending if they're only going to see the trickiest 10% of tokens.
- digitaltrees 5mo agoI am all for monopoly breakdown. But there is an argument that this is anticompetitive strategy designed to undercut the commercial viability of the other labs. In free trade negotiations this is called “dumping”: selling a product below cost at a high volume to gain market share by driving competition out of the market and then raising prices when you’ve outlasted them.
- otagekki 5mo agoUnfortunately Uber and the likes have been doing this but nobody batted an eye
- digitaltrees 5mo agoI am a critic.