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Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. Can't we have cards for this? In Spain, for example, to use Bizum, you n

Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. Can't we have cards for this? In Spain, for example, to use Bizum, you need either an Android/iOS smartphone (and for the Android case, as you use it from your bank's app, it would typically require some Google security assurances - so no Huawei phones allowed, for example) or logging into your bank's website and use Bizum from there, only if your bank allows you to use Bizum via web. And it's not very practical or convenient to do that when you're in a store and want to pay, in contrast to swiping your credit card. So while I see very convenient gaining some sovereignty from American companies for these payments, I think we're losing it when we will need devices controlled by other American companies in order to use the new system.

pjmlp 8mo ago
On Portugal we have the Multibanco network, which already provided Internet like services for buying stuff on the terminals and eventually graduated to have online payments as well, however only in Portugal. Likewise, in Germany we can have SEPA for most stuff. And in Greece there is Viva. Problem is getting something that actually works across all European countries.
- bjghknggkk 8mo ago
  Show me a german webshop that supports modern payment methods. It usually old school bank transfers still.
  - looperhacks 8mo ago
    I have never paid anything via bank transfer, where are you buying?
  - heikkilevanto 8mo ago
    I just bought Kampot peppers from https://www.unclespepper.com/ https://www.unclespepper.com/ which is in Germany, the name notwithstanding. And yes, I paid with my Danish Visa card. No problems except that I had to adjust my ad blocker once.
  - victorbjorklund 8mo ago
    Which payment method is missing from Zalando? https://en.zalando.de/ https://en.zalando.de/ It’s a German company
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    Yes, why did I mentioned SEPA? It works for the purpose to pay something online. If you want an example, Eurowings.
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    I order all over Europe (including Germany) and I cannot remember the last time I did a manual bank transfer.
  - Beretta_Vexee 8mo ago
    On the other hand, I have already seen Germans complaining about the lack of possibility to buy train tickets by bank transfer.
  - usrusr 8mo ago
    You must frequent a very interesting subset of German web shops then. Yes, some do offer bank transfer (many don't because latency is just so terrible), but I've never seen credit card not on the list. Perhaps with the exception of credit card available only through some intermediary like PayPal (which I tend to prefer over direct credit card, I don't really like spreading my CC details to servers of questionable maintenance state than strictly necessary)
    - pimeys 8mo ago
      It is quite recent though, but the webshops do all accept credit cards, most of them even use stripe for payments. Now, of course our corner shop appliance store still only accepts cash. It was fun to pick up cash from multiple ATMs and pay 1500€ with a pile of 20€ bills a few months ago.
- margana 8mo ago
  The problem isn't just getting something that works across all European countries. It's getting something that works globally. While we may make most of our payments within EU, basically everyone still occasionally pays for something outside of EU, either online or when they travel. This means if the new thing only works in EU, every European will still need and have a MasterCard/Visa even if they use it less often than before. This is still a massive amount of leverage - MC/Visa still have the ability to block payments made from EU citizens/companies to outside.
  - graemep 8mo ago
    Also European merchants who need to accept payments from non-Europeans need to accept Visa and Mastercard.
    - wolvoleo 8mo ago
      Of course but they can support an EU standard as well. It's not mutually exclusive. The big benefit is that all internal EU card transactions are no longer routed via US companies which is quite ridiculous.
      - graemep 8mo ago
        Internal transactions all over the world are routed through US companies. I have paid using Visa or Mastercard at some point in Australia, Indonesia, India, Frnce, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Dubai..... its not exclusive, but there is a problem with network effects. From the point of view of a business why should they add support for a new payment system no one users, from the point of view of consumers why should they sign up to a new system that no one accepts? As I said in another comment the most likely alternative is a more decentralised system that all countries/currency blocks that want sovereign payments can get behind.
        wolvoleo 8mo ago
        It's a problem for two reasons. First of all it means American companies get access to a lot of privileged information. Secondly, them pushing foreign morals eg sexual content or services being blocked. If there were an EU card system id certainly sign up for it and demand from vendors that they support it. I don't want my data ending up in America especially these days. The network effect will work out fine because we have reasons to want it.
- severino 8mo ago
  I've been in Portugal sometimes, and to me MB was synonymous with "we accept credit cards", and in fact it is in the sense that you can pay using Visa or Mastercard in those shops. But, is it a standalone system that doesn't require anything outside Portugal in order to work? With their own non-Visa credit cards? And can you use them when abroad in the EU, for example?
  - tiagod 8mo ago
    It's a standalone network. Most Portuguese cards are also VISA/Mastercard, but payment terminals may only have a contract with Multibanco, meaning only Portuguese cards are accepted. It's quite common for foreign cards not to be accepted.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    Nope, it has nothing to do with credit cards, although it also accepts them. It is majorly used for debit cards, and similar in use to the famous Minitel in France. You can use it to load pre-pay phones, or other kinds of rechargeable services, buy tickets for public transport and various kinds of shows, pay water, electricity, taxes, among other services. There is now an app used to pay on shops via QR codes. You can also pay online with one time cards, that are generated for a single transaction. Outside Portugal it is a regular debit card. When you access Multibanco with foreign cards, you can only withdraw money usually.
    - rkomorn 8mo ago
      I'm French and living in Portugal and I do not get the Minitel comparison. Minitel was basically a Telnet device to various services' servers. That said, I love MB and MB Way. What an upgrade it's been over paying for stuff in the US (where I lived before moving to Portugal).
      - pjmlp 8mo ago
        From what I know from Minitel, the same Internet before the Internet applies. I was buying tickets on MB, before it became common place in the Internet.
- moffkalast 8mo ago
  SEPA would be a decent solution with instant QR code generation and app payments, but the transfer fees are ludicrous for daily use (~1-2€ per wire). Or maybe it's just my bank being greedy fucks as usual.
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    It is your bank, I don't pay for transfers.
  - omnimus 8mo ago
    Yes. In some eastern EU countries instant SEPA payments with QR are already super popular because you don't pay fees and you don't need special terminal/gateway.
  - Semaphor 8mo ago
    Huh, I thought the EU had mandated for instant SEPA transfers to be free. Maybe it’s just national. What country are you in?
    - usr1106 8mo ago
      Of course there is no mandate to offer anything for free. They just need to be offered for the same price as other methods. But most people have a bank account for a fixed price and some even for free. So individual transfers are considered free, even if the correct term would be "already paid".
      - Semaphor 8mo ago
        Fair enough, been so long since we had paid transfers here, I forgot it used to be a thing.
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    I never paid for SEPA transfers. Some countries are weird. I am not sure if it is still the case, but Germans had to pay a transfer fee when they used an ATM from another bank. In The Netherlands, you can use ATMs from any Dutch bank without extra cost. In fact, you can also use ATMs of German banks without additional cost. So, a having a Dutch debit card in Germany was/is(?) cheaper than a German debit card in Germany.
- storus 8mo ago
  SEPA gets blocked immediately when you try to buy something expensive, like a top-end graphics card (8k+).
  - pjmlp 8mo ago
    I consider some flights already expensive enough, and have had no issues, unless I got lucky.
gdulli 8mo ago
I use my credit and debit cards the same way today as I did before smartphones existed. I never invited the extra surveillance middleman of Google/Apple into my transactions. And the convenience of tapping or swiping a plastic card is simpler than using my phone anyway. Is this not possible in Spain?
- direwolf20 8mo ago
  I put my debit card in my smartphone case. Best of both worlds.
- severino 8mo ago
  Yes, but in Spain all of our cards are Visa or Mastercard, afaik, so you can't really avoid using American tech in your daily payments (unless you use cash, which remains a very convenient method, by the way).
  - prmoustache 8mo ago
    The fact you have the visa or mastercard logo doesn't mean you can't avoit to use their tech for your daily payments. Example, in France most debit and credit cards are called "carte bleue" (literally blue card) but all of them either have a visa/mastercard logo. However when you pay with them you can decide with the merchant to use the CB system or the visa/mastercard. Sadly very few people know that and do the selection.
    - severino 8mo ago
      Interesting. I don't think there's anything similar here in Spain, though. On the other hand, in this same thread, somebody said Visa acquired that "Carte Bleue" system, and Wikipedia states it was discontinued in 2010. So maybe it's not possible to use anything other than visa/mc in France anymore
      - prmoustache 8mo ago
        You mention an interesting thing I didn't realize before. Carte Bleues, the brand, seems to have been sold to Visa but CB, the payment system would still be a separate thing and now mean Carte Bancaire. It is not helped by the fact that french people literally adopted carte bleue as a generic name for payment cards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group
ncruces 8mo ago
> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. Even if it does, Google won't be taking a cut from it. Also, it's then much easier to provide a mobile web version, or something else. My country's internal system also sells a bracelet for contactless payments, and there are obviously payment cards. Once there's a mandatory standard, it's much more likely competition will show up. EU wide SWIFT, direct debits, instant transfers, all show this.
- KellyCriterion 8mo ago
  What would Google prevent from taking a similar cut as Apple is taking?
  - supertrope 8mo ago
    Lack of negotiation power. Less control over Android than Apple has over iOS. Google keeps self-sabotaging Android Pay. They lacked market power so cellular carriers blocked it hoping to advance their own payment ecosystem (ISIS). Google changes the payment brand every few years, and fragments it into two separate apps or combines them. It's rather like their messaging strategy.
  - ncruces 8mo ago
    What's being discussed isn't Google or Apple Pay. It's an app that uses NFC or, if needed, reads a QR code and does a web request (i.e. needs internet). Neither Google nor Apple will block that, or take a cut; and it's already available in multiple markets. This is about taking stuff that already works in one or two countries, design a similar system that works across countries, and mandate that all banks under ECB supervision implement it.
  - hermanzegerman 8mo ago
    Digital Markets Act, also Apple nearly lost their payment monopoly in Germany as powerful banks lobbied for a law forcing them to open up. It was passed, but then they didn't want to use it. If I would guess, Apple offered them preferential conditions to not have a precedent. https://financefwd.com/de/sparkassen-apple-nfc/ https://financefwd.com/de/sparkassen-apple-nfc/
clawlrbot 8mo ago
[flagged]
- whynotmaybe 8mo ago
  What does Belgium's capital has to do with this? Do you imply Brussels = European Union?
  - createaccount99 8mo ago
    Brussels = location of EU headquarters, and in common lingo Brussels thus means "People running the EU and deciding things on everyone's behalf."
  - the_biot 8mo ago
    "Brussels" is often used to mean the entire blob of EU and related institutions.
    - nozzlegear 8mo ago
      Exactly, it's just like people saying Washington to refer to the US government, or Beijing to refer to Chinese government.
  - prmoustache 8mo ago
    It is called a metonymy where you substitute a name that is associated to some other thing instead of mentionning that thing. Some examples: Wall Street = NY Stock Exchange the White House = US president and his cabinet the Pentagon = US Dept of Defense Downing Street = UK prime minister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy Scotland Yard = Greater London Metropolitan Police Tehran = Government/officials of the islamic republic of Iran
    - _carbyau_ 8mo ago
      As a person who lived for a long time in a political capital I was so frustrated with news articles titled like this. "[City] decides [XYZ stupid thing]!!!" No! We in the city didn't decide it - our responsibility is limited to our political representative. Everyone else voted in idiots and sent them here to decide idiot things!
hiire 8mo ago
Wero is expanding around Belgium, France and Germany while Bizum has "joined" the European Payments Alliance with Bancomat and SIBS from Italy and Portugal respectively, not sure how these work exactly as I'm also located in Spain. My point being, if these payment systems start becoming more interconnected and join within a standard, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually saw Bizum cards around here, Wero cards in other places, and many more. At least that's my take on it. Of course there's still a long way to go, such as developing the system, banks adopting it, businesses adopting it, then customers (which would probably take years, many people wouldn't bother switching at least until their current card expires)
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- Maken 8mo ago
  The transition will be probably smooth and transparent for business and consumers. Banks are already deploying payment terminal able to handle both Bizum and VISA/Mastercard [1]. Since banks own these terminals, they can decide how fast they want Bizum adoption to spread. Business don't even need to opt-in into it. At some point they can simply start charging for credit/debit cards and people will naturally switch to Bizum. [1] https://www.bbva.com/es/es/empresas/bbva-primer-banco-en-espana-que-facilita-el-pago-con-bizum-en-los-tpv-de-los-comercios/ https://www.bbva.com/es/es/empresas/bbva-primer-banco-en-esp...
fhdkweig 8mo ago
> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. I would also hope so, that is the entire point. The reason they are scrambling right now is because Starlink just shut off all of Russia. Because Starlink was so cheap and easy (and stable for the last 4 years of the war), a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access. And while all of Europe is happy to see Russia go away, they are concerned that the same can be done to them at a whim by any number of American companies. So they are trying to quickly create alternatives to anything American including software providers like Microsoft 360. As for credit cards, it is not as if there is something intrinsically American in credit card processing. They can just as easily create a new system that uses the same protocols as Visa and Mastercard. Having your entire economy dependent on a company you don't control in a country you don't control was considered acceptable for as long as a concept of "allies" existed. That is not the world we are living in right now.
- pennaMan 8mo ago
  > they are trying to quickly create alternatives to anything American They're the same bright minds that ensured no alternatives could naturally come out of the European market trough relentless bureaucratic central planning. I have zero hopes of a good outcome
  - maigret 8mo ago
    Actually European integration the last 30 years has been pretty remarkable. In the past, not even electric plugs were compatible. But the EU is not a country. A lot of the inefficiencies are actually features sought by key members to protect their own local incumbents.
    - Saline9515 8mo ago
      Your best example of European integration is electric plugs?
      - georgeecollins 8mo ago
pimterry 8mo ago
> for the Android case, as you use it from your bank's app, it would typically require some Google security assurances - so no Huawei phones allowed, for example I don't know about Huawei, but actually most (all?) of the banking apps in Spain should work on a non-Google-certified Android builds. There's an community list tracking GrapheneOS compatibility at https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/#spain https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... and all of them currently appear supported just fine.
- nosianu 8mo ago
  GrapheneOS in Spain? https://www.androidauthority.com/why-i-use-grapheneos-on-pixel-3575477/ https://www.androidauthority.com/why-i-use-grapheneos-on-pix... > Police in Spain have reportedly started profiling people based on their phones; specifically, and surprisingly, those carrying Google Pixel devices. Law enforcement officials in Catalonia say they associate Pixels with crime because drug traffickers are increasingly turning to these phones. But it’s not Google’s secure Titan M2 chip that has criminals favoring the Pixel — instead, it’s GrapheneOS, a privacy-focused alternative to the default Pixel OS. EDIT: Previously on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44473694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44473694
  - elektronika 8mo ago
    Really makes you think when petty criminals use privacy tech while billionaire pedophiles run their dealings through gmail.
    - wvh 8mo ago
      I guess they consider themselves untouchable.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  Same here, I'm using Dutch banking and credit card apps (and iDEAL/Wero) without issues on a GrapheneOS phone (/e/OS works as well).
digiown 8mo ago
This is really a human right issue. No one should be required to carry an attacker-controlled tracking device, especially not for interacting with the government. It's funny that the EU uses all this mobile attestation BS more than the US does. So much for sovereignty and consumer protection. No monopoly Google can build is as good as the government forcing you to accept their terms.
- ignoramous 8mo ago
  > It's funny that the EU uses all this mobile attestation BS more than the US does Attestation in on itself isn't unwarranted which (to me) is an important security measure. Attestation as commonly implemented on Android via Play Integrity (the way banking apps are known to do) is restrictive, sure: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu... / https://archive.is/snGEu https://archive.is/snGEu
  - xyzzy123 8mo ago
    An important security measure for who, though? The servers at the bank should "never trust the client" in case the attestation is bypassed or compromised, which is always a risk at scale. If it's an important safety measure _for me_, shouldn't I get to decide whether I need it based on context? I think it's fair for banks to apply different risk scores based on the signals they have available (including attestation state), but I also don't want the financial system, government & big tech platforms to have a hard veto on what devices I compute with.
    - miki123211 8mo ago
      It's an anti-brute-force mechanism. It's not for you, it's for all the other accounts that an unattested phone (or a bot posing as an unattested phone that just stole somebody's credentials via some 0-day data exfiltration exploit) may be trying to access. Sure, banks could probably build a mechanism that lets some users opt out of this, just as they could add a Klingon localization to their apps. There just isn't enough demand.
zb3 8mo ago
This "Play Integrity" garbage is the first thing europe should break with. Instead we have Italian government app refusing to run on devices not serving Google's interest.. shame.
- preisschild 8mo ago
  Also often a requirement on govt digital identity apps...
pfortuny 8mo ago
With my bank (bankinter) you can bizum from a browser (just checked). Sorry: This is Spain (to clarify).
rich_sasha 8mo ago
I think absolutely Europe needs it's own mobile OS. And thankfully they can "just" fork Android - or better still, adopt one of the existing forks. I suspect simply stating that it must be a supported standard will do most of the work, much like standardising phone chargers.
Freak_NL 8mo ago
> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. The article starts with Wero right off the bat, which a pan-European rebrand and continuation of the Dutch Ideal. The Dutch have been using Ideal everywhere, and you usually use that to pay online. It redirects you to your bank to acknowledge the transaction, and most bank have auth methods where a smartphone is optional. Most often used for sure, but optional, and you can complete the transaction with a hardware reader and your debit card as well. The only exception are the neobanks like Bunq, which actually are smartphone-only. That one in particular is great if you appreciate the CEO and staff keeping a personal eye on your transactions (no kidding).
skadge 8mo ago
FWIW, I'm using Bizum on a daily basis in Spain, on a de-googled android phone running e/os/, via my bank app (revolut)
hahn-kev 8mo ago
It's true that it's a problem, but it can be easily fixed in the future. For example they could just change the app to work on any old android fork. You still get the benefit of no longer having transaction data run through the US.
- ulrikrasmussen 8mo ago
  But right now many of us are concerned with not being able to run e.g. GrapheneOS without locking ourselves out of all basic digital infrastructure. We shouldn't wait until it gets untenable for the EU to lock us into Google and Apple, we want independence from the start.
  - preisschild 8mo ago
    Not to mention that we are essentially forced to give up accsss to all of our private data stored on our phones to either google or apple because you have their rootkit (Google Play Services in the Android case) installed
Curiositiy 8mo ago
This. A sane voice of reason in an insane, software-tech dork driven world. Physical cards ftw! Btw i love simply using cash in South America when getting a taxi, no stupid "apps", no tech nonsense. Just wait at a proper spot and hail.
ChrisMarshallNY 8mo ago
An Indian friend of mine, constantly raves about their UPI system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface It sounds a lot like what they're discussing.
- crossroadsguy 8mo ago
  Oh it is good. It has its drawbacks (like everything else) but it's quite the de facto now and UPI Lite ( a wallet not on individual apps but on UPI/NCPI f/w itself) had made it even better.
  - dj0k3r 8mo ago
    There's so much trust / dependency on NPCI at this point but I recently learned that it's not a public entity and thus excluded from the transparency acts such as RTI. I hope the EU does better!
    - crossroadsguy 8mo ago
      I am not sure which country you are from but is the term “accountability” even relevant in India anymore? It’s been non existent since more than a decade. I was just commenting on how good, widespread it is and no it is not the doing of the current Govt. It just gained traction during a massive f up of the current Govt.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 8mo ago
    My friend says even the poorest Indians use it. You can buy vegetables at a farmer's market, and just scan a QR code.
    - crossroadsguy 8mo ago
      It’s everywhere. On the hills, on the boats (yeah I paid for roasted peanuts on one but it was close to the shore), rural, urban, semi rural etc.
munk-a 8mo ago
Canada has the interac system and it works pretty wonderfully, it's integrated into other systems for overseas compatibility but it can operate entirely independent of VISA/Mastercard if the POS supports it.
port11 8mo ago
I don’t see why they can’t just piggyback on existing, proven solutions such as Bancontact, Carte Bleu, etc., which are all based on a card running on its own network. If it’s app-based, we’re excluding quite some citizens from it.
- skywal_l 8mo ago
  Visa bought Carte Bleue in 2011. Yep.
  - fransje26 8mo ago
    Nice... /s I thought Carte Bleue no longer existed?
  - port11 8mo ago
    The selling of sovereign infrastructure to foreign actors is a failure of regulation. I’m baffled as to why that was approved.
- hocuspocus 8mo ago
  Some of these are 40+ years old. It makes sense to build upon modern SEPA payment rails and focus on mobile wallets. Europe has always been on the forefront (Swish, Vipps, ...) and we have entire generations of consumers who barely if ever use plastic cards.
GuestFAUniverse 8mo ago
Logical next steps: 1. European app store that has to run on Android/iPhone 2. European phone (platform) -- maybe as a joint venture of different European players / not a single company.
moomoo11 8mo ago
What about a implant that can be placed into your palm? It can carry everything about you and be tied to your pulse so that if you have a panic attack or something as you are being robbed it wipes everything but your name and basic information.
- crossroadsguy 8mo ago
  > implant that can be placed into your palm Might as well make it to the brain while we are at it. Safe when one is brain dead or unconscious. What say?
socceroos 8mo ago
I hope they go with Taler, personally. Privacy of cash but the required traceability for merchants.
crossroadsguy 8mo ago
They should just do on the lines of what India has been doing with UPI and Brazil with Pix. Both massively successful at this point. Of course take their good parts. By the way, since you wondered, it seems to be > built around the digital wallet Wero and wikipedia says its a mobile payments method. I hope not. I hope it's rather an interface/spec. (On a side note, I also hope individual countries of EU ensure that those spec leaves an ability for them to continue internally or even externally if rest of the EU decide to cut someone off or so.)
- kassner 8mo ago
  > Brazil with Pix Are you aware of any banks that don’t require you to use their Android/iOS app to use PIX? I’ve had accesss to maybe a dozen banks and none had that ability. Sometimes you get via web, but needs their app’s 2FA to log in.
- hocuspocus 8mo ago
  EPI is the interface and it's built upon SEPA and TARGET standards. Wero is the implementation. I think it makes sense to provide a turnkey solution to all participating banks, so that we don't have 100+ versions of the same app. Countries that don't want to trust EPI (or simply outside the Eurozone) are able to take the same path as Bizum in Spain, and make their domestic solution interoperate with EPI instead of replacing it.
- dj0k3r 8mo ago
  > Of course take their good parts. I completely agree. Sadly UPI is now almost completely dependant on platform integrity ( google and apple).
  - vee-kay 8mo ago
    You need to research better before forming and sharing wrong opinions about world's most popular payments system: UPI. UPI will work even without a smartphone, it will work on even with a basic feature phone, using USSD codes! That's called UPI 123PAY. https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/news/upi-without-smartphone-rbi-s-new-feature-allows-upi-payments-via-basic-phones-here-s-how/ar-AA1FvTHK https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/news/upi-without-smartphone-... This feature allows rural populations, poor people, small merchants, etc., to send and receive UPI payments, even without a smartphone. So UPI has no dependency on Google or Apple, it can work on any basic phone that supports USSD codes feature!
Imustaskforhelp 8mo ago
UPI in India if I remember correctly can actually work even offline by either sms/calling functionality even on dumb phones Pasting this ddg-ai thing but I think its called UPI 123PAY UPI 123PAY allows users to make digital payments using feature phones without needing a smartphone or internet connection. Users can set up a UPI ID by dialing *99# and can make payments through methods like IVR calls, missed calls, or sound-based technology. https://razorpay.com/blog/what-is-upi-123-pay/ https://razorpay.com/blog/what-is-upi-123-pay/
porknbeans00 8mo ago
So... there once was a company called First data. Founded by some JPMC execs who got chased out of the bank after being caught performing espionage for Palantir. They sold their transaction platform as a service to Apple Pay. And funneled all your transaction data to palantir. Financial networks are side channels for intelligence gathering. And that makes the folks doing them outside of your nation an adversary. With the US choosing to become an enemy of western democracy in Europe, the need for more investment in building trusted core infrastructure is inevitable. Certainly none of this is ever simple. But this is just a microcosm of a much larger shift across many industries in Europe and we as tech nerds should be mindful of the tectonic shifts that are happening currently. The capital investments occurring have serious long term implications for us all.
- Nasrudith 8mo ago
  Really the folks doing them inside your nation are also adversaries. The worst ones in fact because they usually have the power or know somebody who has the power to jail you.
- ap99 8mo ago
  How has the US become an enemy of western democracy in Europe?
  - marcosdumay 8mo ago
    Maybe you missed it, but the US is threatening to attack an EU country for close to an year now.
AdamN 8mo ago
Cards are really slow and expensive to distribute and (tech forward) people would also prefer to just use their phone or watch. This is the kind or project that will take years to work and almost everybody now has a smartphone on one of those two operating systems in their pocket every time they leave the house. Cards will have a slow demise over the next 10 years but it's coming whether we like it or not.
- KronisLV 8mo ago
  Support both? Like to log into e-banking services over here we either have phone apps, or a code calculator device that can be used instead of those: https://www.seb.lv/en/private/daily-banking/tools-and-online-services/code-calculator-digipass https://www.seb.lv/en/private/daily-banking/tools-and-online... Seems like common sense to me, the same how I have a wallet on my phone but still carry cards for payments just in case.
- severino 8mo ago
  Well, at least in Spain cards typically take between 3 or 5 days to get to you via post mail when you first open your account in a bank, and when it's about to expire, from time to time, you get the new one weeks in advance. So I don't think distribution is a problem. Of course companies would prefer to save the cost, and they also prefer that you use their applications, but I just don't think it's more convenient for the end user. Taking a card with you is not a big deal while having to use a mobile application or approved device limits your freedom to choose which smartphone you want to use or how to use it.
sylware 8mo ago
If the interfaces are simple, straight to the point, able to do a good enough job, all that in a modular fashion. It should be rather ok. But 99.99% of the time won't be the implementation of such interfaces, but monitoring and security.
TimByte 8mo ago
Real independence requires thinking about the full stack
gvurrdon 8mo ago
Definitely. I have spent the last few days trying to get a replacement "Digipass" device for a bank account I run for a small sports club. The bank was very reluctant to issue a new one as they want to move everyone onto their app to generate codes for logging in to their website. Trying to argue that even if their app worked now on a de-Googled Android device there was no guarantee that they wouldn't require Google's safetynet etc. at some point in the future was a failure. They did not understand this and decreed that the app not working, or possibly not working, on one's phone was "not a valid reason" to be excused from using the app. Luckily because the account is a business account I was able to claim that using banking apps on phones was against company policy (I set the policy myself), which is an excuse they were willing to accept. For now.
phyzix5761 8mo ago
Any solution they come up with will benefit some company that implements the solution. Most likely there already exists a company (it could be Visa or Mastercard) that has the solution ready and they're lobbying for this to happen.
nunoonun 8mo ago
The Portuguese alternative "MB Way" has small NFC tags that can be tied to your account and used instead of the phone. You still need to register it in the phone. But it's a small step in the right direction.

pjmlp 8mo ago

On Portugal we have the Multibanco network, which already provided Internet like services for buying stuff on the terminals and eventually graduated to have online payments as well, however only in Portugal. Likewise, in Germany we can have SEPA for most stuff. And in Greece there is Viva. Problem is getting something that actually works across all European countries.

bjghknggkk 8mo ago
Show me a german webshop that supports modern payment methods. It usually old school bank transfers still.
- looperhacks 8mo ago
  I have never paid anything via bank transfer, where are you buying?
- heikkilevanto 8mo ago
  I just bought Kampot peppers from https://www.unclespepper.com/ https://www.unclespepper.com/ which is in Germany, the name notwithstanding. And yes, I paid with my Danish Visa card. No problems except that I had to adjust my ad blocker once.
- victorbjorklund 8mo ago
  Which payment method is missing from Zalando? https://en.zalando.de/ https://en.zalando.de/ It’s a German company
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  Yes, why did I mentioned SEPA? It works for the purpose to pay something online. If you want an example, Eurowings.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  I order all over Europe (including Germany) and I cannot remember the last time I did a manual bank transfer.
- Beretta_Vexee 8mo ago
  On the other hand, I have already seen Germans complaining about the lack of possibility to buy train tickets by bank transfer.
- usrusr 8mo ago
  You must frequent a very interesting subset of German web shops then. Yes, some do offer bank transfer (many don't because latency is just so terrible), but I've never seen credit card not on the list. Perhaps with the exception of credit card available only through some intermediary like PayPal (which I tend to prefer over direct credit card, I don't really like spreading my CC details to servers of questionable maintenance state than strictly necessary)
  - pimeys 8mo ago
    It is quite recent though, but the webshops do all accept credit cards, most of them even use stripe for payments. Now, of course our corner shop appliance store still only accepts cash. It was fun to pick up cash from multiple ATMs and pay 1500€ with a pile of 20€ bills a few months ago.
margana 8mo ago
The problem isn't just getting something that works across all European countries. It's getting something that works globally. While we may make most of our payments within EU, basically everyone still occasionally pays for something outside of EU, either online or when they travel. This means if the new thing only works in EU, every European will still need and have a MasterCard/Visa even if they use it less often than before. This is still a massive amount of leverage - MC/Visa still have the ability to block payments made from EU citizens/companies to outside.
- graemep 8mo ago
  Also European merchants who need to accept payments from non-Europeans need to accept Visa and Mastercard.
  - wolvoleo 8mo ago
    Of course but they can support an EU standard as well. It's not mutually exclusive. The big benefit is that all internal EU card transactions are no longer routed via US companies which is quite ridiculous.
    - graemep 8mo ago
      Internal transactions all over the world are routed through US companies. I have paid using Visa or Mastercard at some point in Australia, Indonesia, India, Frnce, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Dubai..... its not exclusive, but there is a problem with network effects. From the point of view of a business why should they add support for a new payment system no one users, from the point of view of consumers why should they sign up to a new system that no one accepts? As I said in another comment the most likely alternative is a more decentralised system that all countries/currency blocks that want sovereign payments can get behind.
      - wolvoleo 8mo ago
        It's a problem for two reasons. First of all it means American companies get access to a lot of privileged information. Secondly, them pushing foreign morals eg sexual content or services being blocked. If there were an EU card system id certainly sign up for it and demand from vendors that they support it. I don't want my data ending up in America especially these days. The network effect will work out fine because we have reasons to want it.
severino 8mo ago
I've been in Portugal sometimes, and to me MB was synonymous with "we accept credit cards", and in fact it is in the sense that you can pay using Visa or Mastercard in those shops. But, is it a standalone system that doesn't require anything outside Portugal in order to work? With their own non-Visa credit cards? And can you use them when abroad in the EU, for example?
- tiagod 8mo ago
  It's a standalone network. Most Portuguese cards are also VISA/Mastercard, but payment terminals may only have a contract with Multibanco, meaning only Portuguese cards are accepted. It's quite common for foreign cards not to be accepted.
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  Nope, it has nothing to do with credit cards, although it also accepts them. It is majorly used for debit cards, and similar in use to the famous Minitel in France. You can use it to load pre-pay phones, or other kinds of rechargeable services, buy tickets for public transport and various kinds of shows, pay water, electricity, taxes, among other services. There is now an app used to pay on shops via QR codes. You can also pay online with one time cards, that are generated for a single transaction. Outside Portugal it is a regular debit card. When you access Multibanco with foreign cards, you can only withdraw money usually.
  - rkomorn 8mo ago
    I'm French and living in Portugal and I do not get the Minitel comparison. Minitel was basically a Telnet device to various services' servers. That said, I love MB and MB Way. What an upgrade it's been over paying for stuff in the US (where I lived before moving to Portugal).
    - pjmlp 8mo ago
      From what I know from Minitel, the same Internet before the Internet applies. I was buying tickets on MB, before it became common place in the Internet.
moffkalast 8mo ago
SEPA would be a decent solution with instant QR code generation and app payments, but the transfer fees are ludicrous for daily use (~1-2€ per wire). Or maybe it's just my bank being greedy fucks as usual.
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  It is your bank, I don't pay for transfers.
- omnimus 8mo ago
  Yes. In some eastern EU countries instant SEPA payments with QR are already super popular because you don't pay fees and you don't need special terminal/gateway.
- Semaphor 8mo ago
  Huh, I thought the EU had mandated for instant SEPA transfers to be free. Maybe it’s just national. What country are you in?
  - usr1106 8mo ago
    Of course there is no mandate to offer anything for free. They just need to be offered for the same price as other methods. But most people have a bank account for a fixed price and some even for free. So individual transfers are considered free, even if the correct term would be "already paid".
    - Semaphor 8mo ago
      Fair enough, been so long since we had paid transfers here, I forgot it used to be a thing.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  I never paid for SEPA transfers. Some countries are weird. I am not sure if it is still the case, but Germans had to pay a transfer fee when they used an ATM from another bank. In The Netherlands, you can use ATMs from any Dutch bank without extra cost. In fact, you can also use ATMs of German banks without additional cost. So, a having a Dutch debit card in Germany was/is(?) cheaper than a German debit card in Germany.
storus 8mo ago
SEPA gets blocked immediately when you try to buy something expensive, like a top-end graphics card (8k+).
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  I consider some flights already expensive enough, and have had no issues, unless I got lucky.

gdulli 8mo ago

I use my credit and debit cards the same way today as I did before smartphones existed. I never invited the extra surveillance middleman of Google/Apple into my transactions. And the convenience of tapping or swiping a plastic card is simpler than using my phone anyway. Is this not possible in Spain?

direwolf20 8mo ago
I put my debit card in my smartphone case. Best of both worlds.
severino 8mo ago
Yes, but in Spain all of our cards are Visa or Mastercard, afaik, so you can't really avoid using American tech in your daily payments (unless you use cash, which remains a very convenient method, by the way).
- prmoustache 8mo ago
  The fact you have the visa or mastercard logo doesn't mean you can't avoit to use their tech for your daily payments. Example, in France most debit and credit cards are called "carte bleue" (literally blue card) but all of them either have a visa/mastercard logo. However when you pay with them you can decide with the merchant to use the CB system or the visa/mastercard. Sadly very few people know that and do the selection.
  - severino 8mo ago
    Interesting. I don't think there's anything similar here in Spain, though. On the other hand, in this same thread, somebody said Visa acquired that "Carte Bleue" system, and Wikipedia states it was discontinued in 2010. So maybe it's not possible to use anything other than visa/mc in France anymore
    - prmoustache 8mo ago
      You mention an interesting thing I didn't realize before. Carte Bleues, the brand, seems to have been sold to Visa but CB, the payment system would still be a separate thing and now mean Carte Bancaire. It is not helped by the fact that french people literally adopted carte bleue as a generic name for payment cards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group

ncruces 8mo ago

> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. Even if it does, Google won't be taking a cut from it. Also, it's then much easier to provide a mobile web version, or something else. My country's internal system also sells a bracelet for contactless payments, and there are obviously payment cards. Once there's a mandatory standard, it's much more likely competition will show up. EU wide SWIFT, direct debits, instant transfers, all show this.

KellyCriterion 8mo ago
What would Google prevent from taking a similar cut as Apple is taking?
- supertrope 8mo ago
  Lack of negotiation power. Less control over Android than Apple has over iOS. Google keeps self-sabotaging Android Pay. They lacked market power so cellular carriers blocked it hoping to advance their own payment ecosystem (ISIS). Google changes the payment brand every few years, and fragments it into two separate apps or combines them. It's rather like their messaging strategy.
- ncruces 8mo ago
  What's being discussed isn't Google or Apple Pay. It's an app that uses NFC or, if needed, reads a QR code and does a web request (i.e. needs internet). Neither Google nor Apple will block that, or take a cut; and it's already available in multiple markets. This is about taking stuff that already works in one or two countries, design a similar system that works across countries, and mandate that all banks under ECB supervision implement it.
- hermanzegerman 8mo ago
  Digital Markets Act, also Apple nearly lost their payment monopoly in Germany as powerful banks lobbied for a law forcing them to open up. It was passed, but then they didn't want to use it. If I would guess, Apple offered them preferential conditions to not have a precedent. https://financefwd.com/de/sparkassen-apple-nfc/ https://financefwd.com/de/sparkassen-apple-nfc/

clawlrbot 8mo ago

[flagged]

whynotmaybe 8mo ago
What does Belgium's capital has to do with this? Do you imply Brussels = European Union?
- createaccount99 8mo ago
  Brussels = location of EU headquarters, and in common lingo Brussels thus means "People running the EU and deciding things on everyone's behalf."
- the_biot 8mo ago
  "Brussels" is often used to mean the entire blob of EU and related institutions.
  - nozzlegear 8mo ago
    Exactly, it's just like people saying Washington to refer to the US government, or Beijing to refer to Chinese government.
- prmoustache 8mo ago
  It is called a metonymy where you substitute a name that is associated to some other thing instead of mentionning that thing. Some examples: Wall Street = NY Stock Exchange the White House = US president and his cabinet the Pentagon = US Dept of Defense Downing Street = UK prime minister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy Scotland Yard = Greater London Metropolitan Police Tehran = Government/officials of the islamic republic of Iran
  - _carbyau_ 8mo ago
    As a person who lived for a long time in a political capital I was so frustrated with news articles titled like this. "[City] decides [XYZ stupid thing]!!!" No! We in the city didn't decide it - our responsibility is limited to our political representative. Everyone else voted in idiots and sent them here to decide idiot things!

hiire 8mo ago

Wero is expanding around Belgium, France and Germany while Bizum has "joined" the European Payments Alliance with Bancomat and SIBS from Italy and Portugal respectively, not sure how these work exactly as I'm also located in Spain. My point being, if these payment systems start becoming more interconnected and join within a standard, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually saw Bizum cards around here, Wero cards in other places, and many more. At least that's my take on it. Of course there's still a long way to go, such as developing the system, banks adopting it, businesses adopting it, then customers (which would probably take years, many people wouldn't bother switching at least until their current card expires)

deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
Maken 8mo ago
The transition will be probably smooth and transparent for business and consumers. Banks are already deploying payment terminal able to handle both Bizum and VISA/Mastercard [1]. Since banks own these terminals, they can decide how fast they want Bizum adoption to spread. Business don't even need to opt-in into it. At some point they can simply start charging for credit/debit cards and people will naturally switch to Bizum. [1] https://www.bbva.com/es/es/empresas/bbva-primer-banco-en-espana-que-facilita-el-pago-con-bizum-en-los-tpv-de-los-comercios/ https://www.bbva.com/es/es/empresas/bbva-primer-banco-en-esp...

fhdkweig 8mo ago

> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. I would also hope so, that is the entire point. The reason they are scrambling right now is because Starlink just shut off all of Russia. Because Starlink was so cheap and easy (and stable for the last 4 years of the war), a lot of people in Russia stopped using any other form of internet access. And while all of Europe is happy to see Russia go away, they are concerned that the same can be done to them at a whim by any number of American companies. So they are trying to quickly create alternatives to anything American including software providers like Microsoft 360. As for credit cards, it is not as if there is something intrinsically American in credit card processing. They can just as easily create a new system that uses the same protocols as Visa and Mastercard. Having your entire economy dependent on a company you don't control in a country you don't control was considered acceptable for as long as a concept of "allies" existed. That is not the world we are living in right now.

pennaMan 8mo ago
> they are trying to quickly create alternatives to anything American They're the same bright minds that ensured no alternatives could naturally come out of the European market trough relentless bureaucratic central planning. I have zero hopes of a good outcome
- maigret 8mo ago
  Actually European integration the last 30 years has been pretty remarkable. In the past, not even electric plugs were compatible. But the EU is not a country. A lot of the inefficiencies are actually features sought by key members to protect their own local incumbents.
  - Saline9515 8mo ago
    Your best example of European integration is electric plugs?
    - georgeecollins 8mo ago

pimterry 8mo ago

> for the Android case, as you use it from your bank's app, it would typically require some Google security assurances - so no Huawei phones allowed, for example I don't know about Huawei, but actually most (all?) of the banking apps in Spain should work on a non-Google-certified Android builds. There's an community list tracking GrapheneOS compatibility at https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/#spain https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... and all of them currently appear supported just fine.

nosianu 8mo ago
GrapheneOS in Spain? https://www.androidauthority.com/why-i-use-grapheneos-on-pixel-3575477/ https://www.androidauthority.com/why-i-use-grapheneos-on-pix... > Police in Spain have reportedly started profiling people based on their phones; specifically, and surprisingly, those carrying Google Pixel devices. Law enforcement officials in Catalonia say they associate Pixels with crime because drug traffickers are increasingly turning to these phones. But it’s not Google’s secure Titan M2 chip that has criminals favoring the Pixel — instead, it’s GrapheneOS, a privacy-focused alternative to the default Pixel OS. EDIT: Previously on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44473694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44473694
- elektronika 8mo ago
  Really makes you think when petty criminals use privacy tech while billionaire pedophiles run their dealings through gmail.
  - wvh 8mo ago
    I guess they consider themselves untouchable.
microtonal 8mo ago
Same here, I'm using Dutch banking and credit card apps (and iDEAL/Wero) without issues on a GrapheneOS phone (/e/OS works as well).

digiown 8mo ago

This is really a human right issue. No one should be required to carry an attacker-controlled tracking device, especially not for interacting with the government. It's funny that the EU uses all this mobile attestation BS more than the US does. So much for sovereignty and consumer protection. No monopoly Google can build is as good as the government forcing you to accept their terms.

ignoramous 8mo ago
> It's funny that the EU uses all this mobile attestation BS more than the US does Attestation in on itself isn't unwarranted which (to me) is an important security measure. Attestation as commonly implemented on Android via Play Integrity (the way banking apps are known to do) is restrictive, sure: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu... / https://archive.is/snGEu https://archive.is/snGEu
- xyzzy123 8mo ago
  An important security measure for who, though? The servers at the bank should "never trust the client" in case the attestation is bypassed or compromised, which is always a risk at scale. If it's an important safety measure _for me_, shouldn't I get to decide whether I need it based on context? I think it's fair for banks to apply different risk scores based on the signals they have available (including attestation state), but I also don't want the financial system, government & big tech platforms to have a hard veto on what devices I compute with.
  - miki123211 8mo ago
    It's an anti-brute-force mechanism. It's not for you, it's for all the other accounts that an unattested phone (or a bot posing as an unattested phone that just stole somebody's credentials via some 0-day data exfiltration exploit) may be trying to access. Sure, banks could probably build a mechanism that lets some users opt out of this, just as they could add a Klingon localization to their apps. There just isn't enough demand.

zb3 8mo ago

This "Play Integrity" garbage is the first thing europe should break with. Instead we have Italian government app refusing to run on devices not serving Google's interest.. shame.

preisschild 8mo ago
Also often a requirement on govt digital identity apps...

pfortuny 8mo ago

With my bank (bankinter) you can bizum from a browser (just checked). Sorry: This is Spain (to clarify).

rich_sasha 8mo ago

I think absolutely Europe needs it's own mobile OS. And thankfully they can "just" fork Android - or better still, adopt one of the existing forks. I suspect simply stating that it must be a supported standard will do most of the work, much like standardising phone chargers.

Freak_NL 8mo ago

> Whatever they come up with, I hope it doesn't tie you to a Google or Apple smartphone. The article starts with Wero right off the bat, which a pan-European rebrand and continuation of the Dutch Ideal. The Dutch have been using Ideal everywhere, and you usually use that to pay online. It redirects you to your bank to acknowledge the transaction, and most bank have auth methods where a smartphone is optional. Most often used for sure, but optional, and you can complete the transaction with a hardware reader and your debit card as well. The only exception are the neobanks like Bunq, which actually are smartphone-only. That one in particular is great if you appreciate the CEO and staff keeping a personal eye on your transactions (no kidding).

skadge 8mo ago

FWIW, I'm using Bizum on a daily basis in Spain, on a de-googled android phone running e/os/, via my bank app (revolut)

hahn-kev 8mo ago

It's true that it's a problem, but it can be easily fixed in the future. For example they could just change the app to work on any old android fork. You still get the benefit of no longer having transaction data run through the US.

ulrikrasmussen 8mo ago
But right now many of us are concerned with not being able to run e.g. GrapheneOS without locking ourselves out of all basic digital infrastructure. We shouldn't wait until it gets untenable for the EU to lock us into Google and Apple, we want independence from the start.
- preisschild 8mo ago
  Not to mention that we are essentially forced to give up accsss to all of our private data stored on our phones to either google or apple because you have their rootkit (Google Play Services in the Android case) installed

Curiositiy 8mo ago

This. A sane voice of reason in an insane, software-tech dork driven world. Physical cards ftw! Btw i love simply using cash in South America when getting a taxi, no stupid "apps", no tech nonsense. Just wait at a proper spot and hail.

ChrisMarshallNY 8mo ago

An Indian friend of mine, constantly raves about their UPI system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface It sounds a lot like what they're discussing.

crossroadsguy 8mo ago
Oh it is good. It has its drawbacks (like everything else) but it's quite the de facto now and UPI Lite ( a wallet not on individual apps but on UPI/NCPI f/w itself) had made it even better.
- dj0k3r 8mo ago
  There's so much trust / dependency on NPCI at this point but I recently learned that it's not a public entity and thus excluded from the transparency acts such as RTI. I hope the EU does better!
  - crossroadsguy 8mo ago
    I am not sure which country you are from but is the term “accountability” even relevant in India anymore? It’s been non existent since more than a decade. I was just commenting on how good, widespread it is and no it is not the doing of the current Govt. It just gained traction during a massive f up of the current Govt.
- ChrisMarshallNY 8mo ago
  My friend says even the poorest Indians use it. You can buy vegetables at a farmer's market, and just scan a QR code.
  - crossroadsguy 8mo ago
    It’s everywhere. On the hills, on the boats (yeah I paid for roasted peanuts on one but it was close to the shore), rural, urban, semi rural etc.

munk-a 8mo ago

Canada has the interac system and it works pretty wonderfully, it's integrated into other systems for overseas compatibility but it can operate entirely independent of VISA/Mastercard if the POS supports it.

port11 8mo ago

I don’t see why they can’t just piggyback on existing, proven solutions such as Bancontact, Carte Bleu, etc., which are all based on a card running on its own network. If it’s app-based, we’re excluding quite some citizens from it.

skywal_l 8mo ago
Visa bought Carte Bleue in 2011. Yep.
- fransje26 8mo ago
  Nice... /s I thought Carte Bleue no longer existed?
- port11 8mo ago
  The selling of sovereign infrastructure to foreign actors is a failure of regulation. I’m baffled as to why that was approved.
hocuspocus 8mo ago
Some of these are 40+ years old. It makes sense to build upon modern SEPA payment rails and focus on mobile wallets. Europe has always been on the forefront (Swish, Vipps, ...) and we have entire generations of consumers who barely if ever use plastic cards.

GuestFAUniverse 8mo ago

Logical next steps: 1. European app store that has to run on Android/iPhone 2. European phone (platform) -- maybe as a joint venture of different European players / not a single company.

moomoo11 8mo ago

What about a implant that can be placed into your palm? It can carry everything about you and be tied to your pulse so that if you have a panic attack or something as you are being robbed it wipes everything but your name and basic information.

crossroadsguy 8mo ago
> implant that can be placed into your palm Might as well make it to the brain while we are at it. Safe when one is brain dead or unconscious. What say?

socceroos 8mo ago

I hope they go with Taler, personally. Privacy of cash but the required traceability for merchants.

crossroadsguy 8mo ago

They should just do on the lines of what India has been doing with UPI and Brazil with Pix. Both massively successful at this point. Of course take their good parts. By the way, since you wondered, it seems to be > built around the digital wallet Wero and wikipedia says its a mobile payments method. I hope not. I hope it's rather an interface/spec. (On a side note, I also hope individual countries of EU ensure that those spec leaves an ability for them to continue internally or even externally if rest of the EU decide to cut someone off or so.)

kassner 8mo ago
> Brazil with Pix Are you aware of any banks that don’t require you to use their Android/iOS app to use PIX? I’ve had accesss to maybe a dozen banks and none had that ability. Sometimes you get via web, but needs their app’s 2FA to log in.
hocuspocus 8mo ago
EPI is the interface and it's built upon SEPA and TARGET standards. Wero is the implementation. I think it makes sense to provide a turnkey solution to all participating banks, so that we don't have 100+ versions of the same app. Countries that don't want to trust EPI (or simply outside the Eurozone) are able to take the same path as Bizum in Spain, and make their domestic solution interoperate with EPI instead of replacing it.
dj0k3r 8mo ago
> Of course take their good parts. I completely agree. Sadly UPI is now almost completely dependant on platform integrity ( google and apple).
- vee-kay 8mo ago
  You need to research better before forming and sharing wrong opinions about world's most popular payments system: UPI. UPI will work even without a smartphone, it will work on even with a basic feature phone, using USSD codes! That's called UPI 123PAY. https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/news/upi-without-smartphone-rbi-s-new-feature-allows-upi-payments-via-basic-phones-here-s-how/ar-AA1FvTHK https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/news/upi-without-smartphone-... This feature allows rural populations, poor people, small merchants, etc., to send and receive UPI payments, even without a smartphone. So UPI has no dependency on Google or Apple, it can work on any basic phone that supports USSD codes feature!

Imustaskforhelp 8mo ago

UPI in India if I remember correctly can actually work even offline by either sms/calling functionality even on dumb phones Pasting this ddg-ai thing but I think its called UPI 123PAY UPI 123PAY allows users to make digital payments using feature phones without needing a smartphone or internet connection. Users can set up a UPI ID by dialing *99# and can make payments through methods like IVR calls, missed calls, or sound-based technology. https://razorpay.com/blog/what-is-upi-123-pay/ https://razorpay.com/blog/what-is-upi-123-pay/

porknbeans00 8mo ago

So... there once was a company called First data. Founded by some JPMC execs who got chased out of the bank after being caught performing espionage for Palantir. They sold their transaction platform as a service to Apple Pay. And funneled all your transaction data to palantir. Financial networks are side channels for intelligence gathering. And that makes the folks doing them outside of your nation an adversary. With the US choosing to become an enemy of western democracy in Europe, the need for more investment in building trusted core infrastructure is inevitable. Certainly none of this is ever simple. But this is just a microcosm of a much larger shift across many industries in Europe and we as tech nerds should be mindful of the tectonic shifts that are happening currently. The capital investments occurring have serious long term implications for us all.

Nasrudith 8mo ago
Really the folks doing them inside your nation are also adversaries. The worst ones in fact because they usually have the power or know somebody who has the power to jail you.
ap99 8mo ago
How has the US become an enemy of western democracy in Europe?
- marcosdumay 8mo ago
  Maybe you missed it, but the US is threatening to attack an EU country for close to an year now.

AdamN 8mo ago

Cards are really slow and expensive to distribute and (tech forward) people would also prefer to just use their phone or watch. This is the kind or project that will take years to work and almost everybody now has a smartphone on one of those two operating systems in their pocket every time they leave the house. Cards will have a slow demise over the next 10 years but it's coming whether we like it or not.

KronisLV 8mo ago
Support both? Like to log into e-banking services over here we either have phone apps, or a code calculator device that can be used instead of those: https://www.seb.lv/en/private/daily-banking/tools-and-online-services/code-calculator-digipass https://www.seb.lv/en/private/daily-banking/tools-and-online... Seems like common sense to me, the same how I have a wallet on my phone but still carry cards for payments just in case.
severino 8mo ago
Well, at least in Spain cards typically take between 3 or 5 days to get to you via post mail when you first open your account in a bank, and when it's about to expire, from time to time, you get the new one weeks in advance. So I don't think distribution is a problem. Of course companies would prefer to save the cost, and they also prefer that you use their applications, but I just don't think it's more convenient for the end user. Taking a card with you is not a big deal while having to use a mobile application or approved device limits your freedom to choose which smartphone you want to use or how to use it.

sylware 8mo ago

If the interfaces are simple, straight to the point, able to do a good enough job, all that in a modular fashion. It should be rather ok. But 99.99% of the time won't be the implementation of such interfaces, but monitoring and security.

TimByte 8mo ago

Real independence requires thinking about the full stack

gvurrdon 8mo ago

Definitely. I have spent the last few days trying to get a replacement "Digipass" device for a bank account I run for a small sports club. The bank was very reluctant to issue a new one as they want to move everyone onto their app to generate codes for logging in to their website. Trying to argue that even if their app worked now on a de-Googled Android device there was no guarantee that they wouldn't require Google's safetynet etc. at some point in the future was a failure. They did not understand this and decreed that the app not working, or possibly not working, on one's phone was "not a valid reason" to be excused from using the app. Luckily because the account is a business account I was able to claim that using banking apps on phones was against company policy (I set the policy myself), which is an excuse they were willing to accept. For now.

phyzix5761 8mo ago

Any solution they come up with will benefit some company that implements the solution. Most likely there already exists a company (it could be Visa or Mastercard) that has the solution ready and they're lobbying for this to happen.

nunoonun 8mo ago

The Portuguese alternative "MB Way" has small NFC tags that can be tied to your account and used instead of the phone. You still need to register it in the phone. But it's a small step in the right direction.