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It's symbolism. But it's important symbolism. Far more notable, I think, is Macron saying this morning that Europe needs more investment from China. Canada sign

by afavour 9mo ago

It's symbolism. But it's important symbolism. Far more notable, I think, is Macron saying this morning that Europe needs more investment from China. Canada signing a deal with China to allow their cars to be sold in the country. It's all a sliding slope until it reaches a breaking point and falls off like a cliff. EDIT: to quote the Canadian PN earlier today: “American hegemony in particular helped provide public goods, a stable financial system... this bargain no longer works. Let me be direct. We are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition... recently, great powers have begun using economic integration as a weapon. Tariffs as leverage ..."

tomaskafka 9mo ago
That sounds like a rhetoric for better negotiating power against Trump. Chinese are our adversaries (EDIT: enemies, they actually bankroll Russian invasion and supply weapons) and I hope president of France understands that.
- koe123 9mo ago
  Genuinely: why? I feel like they were our geopolitical adversary by proxy cause of USA, but is that still true?
- afavour 9mo ago
  > That sounds like a rhetoric for better negotiating power against Trump. In the Canadian example at least the deal is signed. It's not just words. > Chinese are our adversaries Increasingly the US is a European adversary. They are literally threatening to invade the territory of a European country! China isn't doing that. Very easy to dismiss it as the rantings of a madman but no-one is holding him back. People didn't take the tariff bluster seriously and then it became very real.
  - foobarian 9mo ago
    I really don't get the Greenland thing. Is there some 4D chess reason for it? The US already has military bases there and could probably have as many more as they wanted if they just asked nicely. So the whole security thing is a pretext
    - afavour 9mo ago
      IMO the reason is that he is a senile old man lashing out at the world. I really don't think there's a lot to it beyond that. Everyone else goes along with it because they know the administration's entire legitimacy comes from Trump and if/when he's gone the whole house of cards will collapse. That or they have their own focuses (e.g. Stephen Miller) and are happy for Greenland to be a distraction while they get on with their own stuff.
    - nemomarx 9mo ago
      No one's really put out a strong case for it like that. You could argue it's a lot of land that's underpopulated and might be valuable in twenty years with global warming or something? But the simpler answer is that Trump seems to personally like the idea of adding a big landmass to the US for ego reasons. He talked about it last term too with the same excuses mostly.
      - Supermancho 9mo ago
        Probably to indelibly put his name on a piece of the US. How did we get Greenland? Trump.
      - senderista 9mo ago
        It's the Mercator projection's fault
    - jfengel 9mo ago
      There have been mumblings about mineral wealth, and about strategic bases. None of them really make a lick of sense. It does not look as if it's serious. But this is a deeply unserious administration, so it's hard to guess.
      - coffeebeqn 9mo ago
        If they want mineral rights those will be arranged easily with basic diplomacy and investment. They had 17 military bases there during the Cold War and that contract stands. Greenland is under NATO article 5 protection. There is no rational net-positive reason for this no matter what dimension you look in
  - xienze 9mo ago
    > Very easy to dismiss it as the rantings of a madman but no-one is holding him back. Does anyone really need to? We're not getting Greenland and everyone knows it, ESPECIALLY the people screeching the most about it. Trump's whole thing is giving the media lots of fresh meat to go wild over so they're distracted. I'm sure it's some sort of Sun Tzu thing he read about and has latched on to. However, this one in particular is really baffling in that he can't let it go and it just makes everything worse. > People didn't take the tariff bluster seriously and then it became very real. I mean, not really? There's been some tariffs here and there but nowhere near what was originally claimed, things have been walked back and forth multiple times, etc. That's really what's caused the most damage, the uncertainty moreso than the actual tariffs. And this is also something he's particular fixated on and I wish he'd drop since it's obvious it's not going to have the intended outcome.
    - notahacker 9mo ago
      > Does anyone really need to? It feels like the rest of the post answers your own question. Yes, Vance and basically everyone below him know full well that the US acquiring Greenland would be utterly pointless and utterly disastrous. But he won't let it go, and in the mean time he's doing lots of stuff with real world consequences like tariffs and incinerating alliances to try to get people to agree with his stupid idea. Can't even use it as a "negotiation chip" when its the fruits of actual completed negotiations being threatened and the US could put any military installations in Greenland they wanted if they said "please" instead of "we are going to take you over".
- fooster 9mo ago
  Chinese are Canadian adversaries mostly because of the US. The US more or less forced Canada to hold Meng Wanzhou, which caused a huge rise in diplomatic tensions and cost Canada billions. Some thanks we got for that.
  - petcat 9mo ago
    Doesn't China own most of the real estate in Canada. Did USA cause that
    - Cornbilly 9mo ago
      >Doesn't China own most of the real estate in Canada. No.
    - rjrjrjrj 9mo ago
      Weird whataboutery
    - Supermancho 9mo ago
      For a time there was a large amount of Chinese money fleeing to Canada and the US, buying up coastland and other high value residential. Circa 2018ish, that reversed due to Xi Ping's mandates. Near Seattle, the Bellevue luxury market bottom fell out over a month long period. AFAIK, it never fully returned to the hey day levels of spending.
    - maxglute 9mo ago
      US buyers owns like 10x more real estate in Canada in $$$ terms than PRC buyers, and US tends to buy the strategic stuff like commercial/industry, something like 50% of all foreign controlled assets in Canada is controlled by US. VS PRC mostly buying houses, foreigners own like 5% of housing stock in Canada.
    - fooster 9mo ago
      > Doesn't China own most of the real estate in Canada. No. Why would you claim something that is easily refuted? 75-80% of all residences in Canada are owner occupied.
- epolanski 9mo ago
  I'm Italian/Polish, China has never done anything to me in history. Whereas I remember multiple times our allies pillaging and colonizing the country. Not a fan of their espionage, lack of IP respect and human rights record (albeit we should also look at ourselves on the last one as well). But those are things that could've been challenged diplomatically through economical levers imho. The only reason China suddenly became the enemy is because their GDP growth put them as the world's biggest economy in few decades and Washington wasn't happy with this.
- traceroute66 9mo ago
  > I hope president of France understands that I'm sure he does. But only a fool would piss off the Chinese. Both in Macron's own country and his region, there will be hundreds of companies who are already cut-off from Russia, Africa, Middle-East and Central Asia due to geopolitics. China doesn't care and is busy selling there. So what's left is the remainder of Asia, which is China's home turf where they are already ultra-competitive as they have the geographic advantage. And of course there will be companies in Macron's country and region using Chinese manufacturing or otherwise engaged in Chinese JVs to get access to sell to the Chinese market. So for Macron to go full-Trump on China would be a textbook case of cutting your nose to spite your face. The Chinese are masters at playing the long game and the West needs to be careful about knee-jerk short-termism actions.
busterarm 9mo ago
Canada needs cheaper cars than US manufacturers want to provide. US brand cars have all been going higher dollar and further up market in recent years. Quebec is famous for the "Quebec Special". Cars with manual everything. No AC. Manual windows. Completely stripped down to be as affordable/disposable as possible. Also the roads are absolute shit, they never wash off the salt, there used to be no inspections and title-washing is common practice there.
- earlyriser 9mo ago
  Is this a thing? I have never heard about that, living in QC for the last 20 years and owned and rode dozens of cars. The car salesman looked at me as a rare species when I wanted a manual Soul. I have never seen an no AC or manual windows car here.
  - busterarm 9mo ago
    Sorry, I'm old. I last lived in Canada 20 years ago. Times do change, but yes this very much used to be a thing. Base model/optionless imports still are, however. Everything I said about the roads and title washing still applies.
    - busterarm 9mo ago
      Also, https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/06/quebecs-obsession-with-no-frills-cars/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/06/quebecs-obsession-...
  - dh2022 9mo ago
    The Hyundai my parents have been driving for the past 7 years does not have AC nor automatic windows :). They live in Montreal, and hate the lack of AC during the summer, but it is what it is - car is cheaper without AC.
- HarHarVeryFunny 9mo ago
  They are certainly going to get them! Apparently zero tariffs on Chinese made EVs coming into Canada, so they will have EV's of at least same quality as Tesla, but half price (e.g. see Marques Brownlee's recent Xiaomi review).
btbuildem 9mo ago
It's not pure symbolism. The most effective way to reduce the global threat the US is appearing to pose more as of late, is to hit the dollar. The US economy is in a very precarious state, tensions along political ideology lines are high, and it would not take much more than a worsening of economic conditions plus a catalyst event to kick off armed unrest within the country. A new civil war that drives the US to fragment into several independent regions over the course of the next ~five years would kind of be the best scenario from a global perspective.
- raincole 9mo ago
  > Danish pension fund AkademikerPension said on Tuesday it would sell off its holding of U.S. Treasuries, worth some $100 million, > AkademikerPension has in total 164 billion Danish crowns ($25.74 billion) So they are moving about 0.4% of their investment. Not pure symbolism, but $100 million is really nothing when we're talking about US treasuries. In the past decade, China has reduced their holding by about $600B.
  - jacquesm 9mo ago
    Think of it as a bowshot. There are many more such 10 to 100 billion funds and they can move at the drop of a hat if they have to.
    - dmitrygr 9mo ago
      Can. Won't. There is no safer place to stash money in the world. Nobody buys treasuries for the fun of it. They do it since that is the safest place to stash money long term.
      - jacquesm 9mo ago
        That's your opinion, which you are of course welcome to. People buy treasuries because they expect a return. If a party is threatening to get into a shooting war with you your expectations of a return drop significantly. This then causes that party to protect their investment, the last one to defect will hold the bag. The US is signalling on all wavelengths that it is no longer the safest place to stash money, long term or otherwise.
bell-cot 9mo ago
It's only symbolism if you believe that there's a 0% chance of US/Denmark hostilities. Otherwise - d'oh, yes, you don't want to risk being stuck holding IOU's from your enemy, which he is rather likely to dishonor.
Mindwipe 9mo ago
It's symbolism unless planting a stooge to lower interest rates below any economic justification in April causes a significant slide on the dollar's value. In which case its a great investment move.
alphazard 9mo ago
> It's symbolism. It's not. This is where the financial rubber meets the road, actions have consequences, and the rest of the world is looking at the US as increasingly unlikely to pay above inflation on its debts. The people managing the pension funds (if they are acting in good faith) really want to generate yield, and really want to preserve capital for the Danish people. They don't want to symbolically do those things, they want to actually do them. If treasuries were still part of what they believe to be the best strategy, they would still be holding them.
- epolanski 9mo ago
  There's no chance US will default on its debts, all it has to do is to print more money. Inflation may spirale, but it's going to be a US citizens problems (as well as US bond holders) in terms of inflation and budget cuts.
  - mym1990 9mo ago
    It will also be a global problem and not just US citizens, as the dollars underpins a vast amount of global wealth and trade.
    - epolanski 9mo ago
      Of course it would have consequences, but US has had multiple huge waves of inflations and very high interest rates, we've all survived.
      - Retric 9mo ago
        The US has never dealt with hyperinflation.
        adventured 9mo ago
        The US isn't going to get hyperinflation. It's going to get a Japan style heat death. More and more wealth concentrated into low yielding debt, rather than invested into growth, while purchasing power is chewed up by persistent currency debasement. Japan never did suffer real deflation (that was a lie), it suffered massive inflation: they debased the Yen to garbage levels, drastically chopping down the standard of living of the typical Japanese person, wiping out their wealth, eroding the value of their output per capita. Only in a twisted, failed Keynesian experiment could one confuse such epic scale inflation with deflation. What they thought was deflation was an economic heat death due to their productive capital being tied up in low yield debt.
moogly 9mo ago
In a "might makes right" world, Europe clearly needs more might, and then it makes sense to improve relations with China; not a lot of options.
- alephnerd 9mo ago
  The EU can't mend ties with China without giving up on Ukraine as China's FM Wang Yi has stated [0] on multiple occasions [1]. Additionally, in the Chinese foreign policy space, the EU is viewed as weak [2], and largely through the lense of the US-China rivalry (which is how the US views the EU as well now). [0] - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/china-tells-eu-it-cannot-afford-russian-loss-ukraine-war-sources-say https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/ch... [1] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-russia-discuss-ukraine-reach-consensus-japan-during-chinese-ministers-2025-12-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-russia-discuss-ukr... [2] - https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.htm https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.ht...
  - sekai 9mo ago
    > The EU can't mend ties with China without giving up on Ukraine as China's FM Wang Yi has stated [0] At the end of the day China cares more about Europe than Russia. Because that's where the real money is.
    - alephnerd 9mo ago
      At the end of the day, their Foreign Minister and their entire foreign policy apparatus has consistently stated they will prioritize Russia over the EU for national security reasons (Central Asia, North Korea, Japan). The EU signing an FTA with India on Jan 27th is also a negative sign for China-EU relations.
      - petesergeant 9mo ago
        Foreign Ministries of all countries are known to speak the unvarnished truth at all time
Devasta 9mo ago
"How did you go bankrupt? Two ways: gradually and then suddenly." --Ernest Hemingway
wtcactus 9mo ago
With Trump pressuring the independence of the central bank, this doesn't seem symbolism at all. It might very well be that the USA will face a period of high inflation soon if we continue down this path of high government spending and no independent central bank to put a break on it. And I can't even understand why this obsession of lowering interest rates in the USA. The economy is doing great, there's no shortage of investment money going around. There's really no reason to lower in the interest rates before we tackle the leftover inflation that still comes from the COVID measures. It's Trump's personal insecurities playing again and not allowing anyone to tell him "no". What a child.
- pepperball 9mo ago
  > And I can't even understand why this obsession of lowering interest rates in the USA. You have to understand how much the middle and lower classes can become addicted to cheap lines of credit made accessible to them.
wnevets 9mo ago
Trump is making China great again
vld_chk 9mo ago
If this is a symbolism, then why 30YR Treasuries are YTH despite FED rate cuts throughout the year?
throw0101a 9mo ago
> It's all a sliding slope until it reaches a breaking point and falls off like a cliff. "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.” * https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/102579-how-did-you-go-bankrupt-two-ways-gradually-then-suddenly https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/102579-how-did-you-go-bankr...
HarHarVeryFunny 9mo ago
Far more important, I'd say, are the European countries having already got together to discuss joint sanctions/tariffs against the USA (their nominal NATO partner) if Trump moves to seize Greenland. Macron has also said that he wants no part of Trump's (billion dollar entrance fee) "peace board" that he's going to be pushing at Davos. A divorce from the USA would certainly hurt Europe, but it will also hurt the USA and it's ability to defend itself if it loses access to European intelligence and ability to have forward located military bases and refueling locations. The Republican's are really shooting themselves, and the US, in the foot here by not standing up to Trump and therefore indicating that all this craziness is Trump rather than an enduring US policy that they support. Even if they flip flop when Trump is out of office, the rest of the world is never going to trust the US again.
- jacquesm 9mo ago
  Precisely. If the USA wants to be trusted at all it needs to act now or it will be too late. This is the precipice and without action from Congress & the Senate the rest of the world will make up their own mind about the country as a whole. This is probably one of the most expensive moments in history.
  - HaZeust 9mo ago
    One of the most expensive moments in history so far
    - jacquesm 9mo ago
      Fair, but since we can't look into the future that's an obvious thing. Every maximum is always a maximum 'so far'.
      - HaZeust 9mo ago
        It's more of a Simpsons reference haha, sorry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfpPArfDTGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfpPArfDTGw
kwanbix 9mo ago
It’s crazy to see how Trump has made the U.S. look like a worse partner than China, or at least just as bad.
- xwolfi 9mo ago
  Way worse. I live in China but I'm French and I was saying to my gf yday night, to my own surprise: "China has never humiliated, insulted or threatened in such a gross, childish, pointless way. We might be better off supporting a Taiwan reintegration and abandon Ukraine to Russia for an Eurasian alliance, than let the US talk to us like that - even frigging Putin never crossed the line to mockery as often as Trump and his goons". Maybe I overreact, but what a change of opinion from my grandad who saw the US land in Normandy... This credit we gave them is running out and I'd rather have a cold calculating dictator that tells me the population is too stupid to vote (common feeling in China) than an unstable mercurial dictator whining he didn't get a pretty prize. And if Trump wants to talk about boats 500 years ago, how long does he think we've been in friendly contact with Russia and China ?
complianceowl 9mo ago
[flagged]
- etc-hosts 9mo ago
  I think we should all be more shocked the US kidnapped the leader of another country.
  - OrvalWintermute 9mo ago
    That previous US leaders permitted Western Hemisphere nations to get so in bed with rival hegemonies for so long is the shocking thing. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis?
    - etc-hosts 9mo ago
      I closely follow all of this, to the detriment of my job. I'm amused that the US State Dept's PR is that "Maduro is selling oil to our enemies." We've frozen Venezuela out from buying or selling anything from any other country. This is how economic sanctions work. If a company or country does business with Venezuela, we block them from doing business in the USA. What else is Venezuela supposed to do? Of course they're going to sell oil to countries that we don't like. It's the first thing that happens when we place severe economic sanctions on another country.
- ogogmad 9mo ago
  > The EU and Canada is [sic] upset because of Trumps use of force [...] to acquire land via direct negotiations with Greenland natives A lie. Opinion polls suggest 85% of Greenlanders oppose the territory joining the US. > As Americans Would you bloody stop? Most of us here aren't Americans.
  - complianceowl 9mo ago
    [flagged]
- deleted 9mo ago
qwertox 9mo ago
It's like Trump and his followers are not aware how fragile this entire system is, and if they are aware, they don't seem to be aware of the risks, and that the most likely outcome is that the world is in a less good condition than before. A big child that got the wish granted to play president.
billy99k 9mo ago
[flagged]
- bigyabai 9mo ago
  > If Taiwan thinks they will get support from these countries that are now heavily invested in China, they need to think again. Please explain in detail how you think the Canadian military would deter a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. Taiwan needs a joint force in the Pacific, not individually committed nations. If "America First" policy extends to Taiwanese diplomacy, the island is as good as gone.
lenerdenator 9mo ago
> It's symbolism. But it's important symbolism. Far more notable, I think, is Macron saying this morning that Europe needs more investment from China. Canada signing a deal with China to allow their cars to be sold in the country. The better move would be to invest internally. China wants a hegemony, whether they acknowledge it out loud or not. As Europe and Canada start seeking Chinese investment, the Chinese will seek something in return. They're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. I'd also like to think that the American/Western investment in places like China and Russia are part of how we got to where we're at now. It became apparent for Western capital that human rights aren't necessarily compatible with economic growth and can even run contrary to it. Eventually that mindset permeates a society, and it has in the US. A large plurality of the population thinks that a billionaire strongman is necessary to remain competitive in the global marketplace. This mindset didn't show up overnight, it was a slow burn. Some of it was fueled by the demographic transitions of the last fifty years, some by American economic anxiety - which was caused by American/Western investment in China - and the rest of the West has the same problems in those departments that the US has to one extent or another. The European/Canadian welfare state that provided protection from some of the economic anxiety that was seen in the US must get its funding from somewhere, and you get it from taxing economic expansion. Economic expansion relies on at least some population growth. Right now, you don't see native population growth in most Western countries. They have to have people immigrate in to stay competitive. In pretty much all of these countries, you've seen at least some friction between the "native" population and immigrants. You'll see more of that in the future, and that's how the Canadian/European Trump will show up. Doubly so in Europe, because their nation-states are partially defined in terms of ethnicity.
- Barrin92 9mo ago
  >the Chinese will seek something in return. They're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. of course they aren't but it's also obvious what they want. Design a new global order where they have a seat at the table and get to determine standards, processes and technologies. That's the point of investing in telecommunications, cars, and so on. But what they don't want is annex European territory. China is still ambitious enough to imagine itself as creating new international orders rather than just creating disorder, and so they'll likely make for a better partner for any civilized country than powers that descend into 19th century colonial neo-imperialism run by people who may as well come straight out of the Warhammer universe.
filloooo 9mo ago
The problem is that the EU and China are both looking for export markets to fund their economic growth, unless EU blows up it's welfare system and prints money like the US, the two are competitors. But doing that would undermine Euro's credibility, as the EU is a loose union of countries with their distinct interests and politics, also member countries would compete on outspending each other as the Euro would have been essentially free money, a Euro debt crisis on turbocharge. So, the EU can never print like the US. The EU and China will be rivals.
deleted 9mo ago
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NelsonMinar 9mo ago
The article has a quote from the investment director saying it is not symbolism. "The decision is rooted in the poor U.S. government finances, which make us think that we need to make an effort to find an alternative way of conducting our liquidity and risk management"
creativeSlumber 9mo ago
> It's all a sliding slope until it reaches a breaking point and falls off like a cliff. Would it be a gradual decline or a step change after some point?
antirez 9mo ago
I believe this is actually the center of the matter. Trump surely does not represents all the Americans, but I believe he is currently acting in a so aggressive way because America has a problem, that is: for years governments of other countries are selling more and more US bonds (because the United States look progressively less able to pay back), and given the US huge debt, this would mean an incredible problem for a country that for decades spent ways more than it was possible or wise (and, this spending also helped to fuel the IT strong position the country achieved). So, now, in order to have compelling arguments to ask for certain conditions, Trump is acting in this way, since in order to have something that others don't want to give to America, America needs to be a problem the other countries. This is a way to amplify your position in the world, that is otherwise not as strong as in the past. We used to watch Russia doing something like that, and could not expect to see this from USA. But things evolve...
JumpCrisscross 9mo ago
> It's symbolism It’s not. If we go to war with Denmark, there is a real chance we sanction them as well.
drecked 9mo ago
One of the strongest reasons to hold onto the dollar is the stability and finances of the U.S. government. But in the last month, the U.S. President has pushed for a criminal investigation of the Fed chair because he isn’t doing what the U.S. President is asking, has threatened to start a war of conquest against a NATO ally, has simultaneously said increased taxes on imports will reduce the deficit but also that he will distribute it all away, has used import taxes as a geopolitical weapon, has said he runs Venezuela and one of the first things he’s done is injected the US government ahead of all other creditors. All of this in the first few weeks of 2026. And every one of these actions destroy the very basis of why the world has confidence in the finances of the U.S. govt.
- junofan 9mo ago
  Well if the Fed Chair did commit a crime, it’s probably better that be investigated and resolved. I wouldn’t put my money in a country where the monetary authorities commit crimes with impunity. I’m not sure what your other points have to do with the monetary authority.
  - epgui 9mo ago
    That “if” is doing a lot of work.
  - Spooky23 9mo ago
    When did you stop beating your wife?
  - andrew_lettuce 9mo ago
    Maybe you should look into the context. The investigation is supposedly over lying to Congress about the true cost of the renovation of the federal reserve HQ. Despite being a topic week within the current president's wheelhouse, this is incredibly flimsy even if true. It sure looks like a politically motivated attack because the Fed chair won't let Trump dictate monetary policy - thank God!
estimator7292 9mo ago
Shocking how the US has pushed all global allies into putting more trust in China. And by shocking I mean the thing where everyone saw it come screaming a mile off.
akst 9mo ago
> It's symbolism Ah no... this is people's money, and they likely came to conclusion the US bonds are inconsistent with the funds goals and risk appetite. Within the first few paragraphs of the article you see this: > The decision is rooted in the poor U.S. government finances, which make us think that we need to make an effort to find an alternative way of conducting our liquidity and risk management If you're dealing with peoples pensions, even if there are higher growth portion of the funds allocation, you've got to make sure there are portions of the fund that's stable enough to be regularly liquidated to send out regular payments. Given the whole hoo-ha with trump trying appoint their own guy into the federal reserve, it isn't that surprising the fund managers have decided to decrease their allocation.
stoneforger 9mo ago
The deliberate push to alienate allies pushing them to the other pole (China), is setting up the stage for confrontation. It can then become self-evident China is out to eat the USs lunch so they need to be dealt with. And all the years of China this, China that, will become true and it will be much more palatable to go hot over China or anything else. China will become the new defacto evil empire and everyone in the US will nod in agreement and decide it's time to do something about it. It's gaslighting at a global scale and it's working fine. Probably something like 2027. I don't know if those Macron messages are real but in Europe we are cooked because it's okay to not want global domination, but it's bad when you're being manipulated and you don't even realize why.

by afavour 9mo ago

tomaskafka 9mo ago

That sounds like a rhetoric for better negotiating power against Trump. Chinese are our adversaries (EDIT: enemies, they actually bankroll Russian invasion and supply weapons) and I hope president of France understands that.

koe123 9mo ago
Genuinely: why? I feel like they were our geopolitical adversary by proxy cause of USA, but is that still true?
afavour 9mo ago
> That sounds like a rhetoric for better negotiating power against Trump. In the Canadian example at least the deal is signed. It's not just words. > Chinese are our adversaries Increasingly the US is a European adversary. They are literally threatening to invade the territory of a European country! China isn't doing that. Very easy to dismiss it as the rantings of a madman but no-one is holding him back. People didn't take the tariff bluster seriously and then it became very real.
- foobarian 9mo ago
  I really don't get the Greenland thing. Is there some 4D chess reason for it? The US already has military bases there and could probably have as many more as they wanted if they just asked nicely. So the whole security thing is a pretext
  - afavour 9mo ago
    IMO the reason is that he is a senile old man lashing out at the world. I really don't think there's a lot to it beyond that. Everyone else goes along with it because they know the administration's entire legitimacy comes from Trump and if/when he's gone the whole house of cards will collapse. That or they have their own focuses (e.g. Stephen Miller) and are happy for Greenland to be a distraction while they get on with their own stuff.
  - nemomarx 9mo ago
    No one's really put out a strong case for it like that. You could argue it's a lot of land that's underpopulated and might be valuable in twenty years with global warming or something? But the simpler answer is that Trump seems to personally like the idea of adding a big landmass to the US for ego reasons. He talked about it last term too with the same excuses mostly.
    - Supermancho 9mo ago
      Probably to indelibly put his name on a piece of the US. How did we get Greenland? Trump.
    - senderista 9mo ago
      It's the Mercator projection's fault
  - jfengel 9mo ago
    There have been mumblings about mineral wealth, and about strategic bases. None of them really make a lick of sense. It does not look as if it's serious. But this is a deeply unserious administration, so it's hard to guess.
    - coffeebeqn 9mo ago
      If they want mineral rights those will be arranged easily with basic diplomacy and investment. They had 17 military bases there during the Cold War and that contract stands. Greenland is under NATO article 5 protection. There is no rational net-positive reason for this no matter what dimension you look in
- xienze 9mo ago
  > Very easy to dismiss it as the rantings of a madman but no-one is holding him back. Does anyone really need to? We're not getting Greenland and everyone knows it, ESPECIALLY the people screeching the most about it. Trump's whole thing is giving the media lots of fresh meat to go wild over so they're distracted. I'm sure it's some sort of Sun Tzu thing he read about and has latched on to. However, this one in particular is really baffling in that he can't let it go and it just makes everything worse. > People didn't take the tariff bluster seriously and then it became very real. I mean, not really? There's been some tariffs here and there but nowhere near what was originally claimed, things have been walked back and forth multiple times, etc. That's really what's caused the most damage, the uncertainty moreso than the actual tariffs. And this is also something he's particular fixated on and I wish he'd drop since it's obvious it's not going to have the intended outcome.
  - notahacker 9mo ago
    > Does anyone really need to? It feels like the rest of the post answers your own question. Yes, Vance and basically everyone below him know full well that the US acquiring Greenland would be utterly pointless and utterly disastrous. But he won't let it go, and in the mean time he's doing lots of stuff with real world consequences like tariffs and incinerating alliances to try to get people to agree with his stupid idea. Can't even use it as a "negotiation chip" when its the fruits of actual completed negotiations being threatened and the US could put any military installations in Greenland they wanted if they said "please" instead of "we are going to take you over".
fooster 9mo ago
Chinese are Canadian adversaries mostly because of the US. The US more or less forced Canada to hold Meng Wanzhou, which caused a huge rise in diplomatic tensions and cost Canada billions. Some thanks we got for that.
- petcat 9mo ago
  Doesn't China own most of the real estate in Canada. Did USA cause that
  - Cornbilly 9mo ago
    >Doesn't China own most of the real estate in Canada. No.
  - rjrjrjrj 9mo ago
    Weird whataboutery
  - Supermancho 9mo ago
    For a time there was a large amount of Chinese money fleeing to Canada and the US, buying up coastland and other high value residential. Circa 2018ish, that reversed due to Xi Ping's mandates. Near Seattle, the Bellevue luxury market bottom fell out over a month long period. AFAIK, it never fully returned to the hey day levels of spending.
  - maxglute 9mo ago
    US buyers owns like 10x more real estate in Canada in $$$ terms than PRC buyers, and US tends to buy the strategic stuff like commercial/industry, something like 50% of all foreign controlled assets in Canada is controlled by US. VS PRC mostly buying houses, foreigners own like 5% of housing stock in Canada.
  - fooster 9mo ago
    > Doesn't China own most of the real estate in Canada. No. Why would you claim something that is easily refuted? 75-80% of all residences in Canada are owner occupied.
epolanski 9mo ago
I'm Italian/Polish, China has never done anything to me in history. Whereas I remember multiple times our allies pillaging and colonizing the country. Not a fan of their espionage, lack of IP respect and human rights record (albeit we should also look at ourselves on the last one as well). But those are things that could've been challenged diplomatically through economical levers imho. The only reason China suddenly became the enemy is because their GDP growth put them as the world's biggest economy in few decades and Washington wasn't happy with this.
traceroute66 9mo ago
> I hope president of France understands that I'm sure he does. But only a fool would piss off the Chinese. Both in Macron's own country and his region, there will be hundreds of companies who are already cut-off from Russia, Africa, Middle-East and Central Asia due to geopolitics. China doesn't care and is busy selling there. So what's left is the remainder of Asia, which is China's home turf where they are already ultra-competitive as they have the geographic advantage. And of course there will be companies in Macron's country and region using Chinese manufacturing or otherwise engaged in Chinese JVs to get access to sell to the Chinese market. So for Macron to go full-Trump on China would be a textbook case of cutting your nose to spite your face. The Chinese are masters at playing the long game and the West needs to be careful about knee-jerk short-termism actions.

busterarm 9mo ago

Canada needs cheaper cars than US manufacturers want to provide. US brand cars have all been going higher dollar and further up market in recent years. Quebec is famous for the "Quebec Special". Cars with manual everything. No AC. Manual windows. Completely stripped down to be as affordable/disposable as possible. Also the roads are absolute shit, they never wash off the salt, there used to be no inspections and title-washing is common practice there.

earlyriser 9mo ago
Is this a thing? I have never heard about that, living in QC for the last 20 years and owned and rode dozens of cars. The car salesman looked at me as a rare species when I wanted a manual Soul. I have never seen an no AC or manual windows car here.
- busterarm 9mo ago
  Sorry, I'm old. I last lived in Canada 20 years ago. Times do change, but yes this very much used to be a thing. Base model/optionless imports still are, however. Everything I said about the roads and title washing still applies.
  - busterarm 9mo ago
    Also, https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/06/quebecs-obsession-with-no-frills-cars/ https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/06/quebecs-obsession-...
- dh2022 9mo ago
  The Hyundai my parents have been driving for the past 7 years does not have AC nor automatic windows :). They live in Montreal, and hate the lack of AC during the summer, but it is what it is - car is cheaper without AC.
HarHarVeryFunny 9mo ago
They are certainly going to get them! Apparently zero tariffs on Chinese made EVs coming into Canada, so they will have EV's of at least same quality as Tesla, but half price (e.g. see Marques Brownlee's recent Xiaomi review).

btbuildem 9mo ago

It's not pure symbolism. The most effective way to reduce the global threat the US is appearing to pose more as of late, is to hit the dollar. The US economy is in a very precarious state, tensions along political ideology lines are high, and it would not take much more than a worsening of economic conditions plus a catalyst event to kick off armed unrest within the country. A new civil war that drives the US to fragment into several independent regions over the course of the next ~five years would kind of be the best scenario from a global perspective.

raincole 9mo ago
> Danish pension fund AkademikerPension said on Tuesday it would sell off its holding of U.S. Treasuries, worth some $100 million, > AkademikerPension has in total 164 billion Danish crowns ($25.74 billion) So they are moving about 0.4% of their investment. Not pure symbolism, but $100 million is really nothing when we're talking about US treasuries. In the past decade, China has reduced their holding by about $600B.
- jacquesm 9mo ago
  Think of it as a bowshot. There are many more such 10 to 100 billion funds and they can move at the drop of a hat if they have to.
  - dmitrygr 9mo ago
    Can. Won't. There is no safer place to stash money in the world. Nobody buys treasuries for the fun of it. They do it since that is the safest place to stash money long term.
    - jacquesm 9mo ago
      That's your opinion, which you are of course welcome to. People buy treasuries because they expect a return. If a party is threatening to get into a shooting war with you your expectations of a return drop significantly. This then causes that party to protect their investment, the last one to defect will hold the bag. The US is signalling on all wavelengths that it is no longer the safest place to stash money, long term or otherwise.

bell-cot 9mo ago

It's only symbolism if you believe that there's a 0% chance of US/Denmark hostilities. Otherwise - d'oh, yes, you don't want to risk being stuck holding IOU's from your enemy, which he is rather likely to dishonor.

Mindwipe 9mo ago

It's symbolism unless planting a stooge to lower interest rates below any economic justification in April causes a significant slide on the dollar's value. In which case its a great investment move.

alphazard 9mo ago

> It's symbolism. It's not. This is where the financial rubber meets the road, actions have consequences, and the rest of the world is looking at the US as increasingly unlikely to pay above inflation on its debts. The people managing the pension funds (if they are acting in good faith) really want to generate yield, and really want to preserve capital for the Danish people. They don't want to symbolically do those things, they want to actually do them. If treasuries were still part of what they believe to be the best strategy, they would still be holding them.

epolanski 9mo ago
There's no chance US will default on its debts, all it has to do is to print more money. Inflation may spirale, but it's going to be a US citizens problems (as well as US bond holders) in terms of inflation and budget cuts.
- mym1990 9mo ago
  It will also be a global problem and not just US citizens, as the dollars underpins a vast amount of global wealth and trade.
  - epolanski 9mo ago
    Of course it would have consequences, but US has had multiple huge waves of inflations and very high interest rates, we've all survived.
    - Retric 9mo ago
      The US has never dealt with hyperinflation.
      - adventured 9mo ago
        The US isn't going to get hyperinflation. It's going to get a Japan style heat death. More and more wealth concentrated into low yielding debt, rather than invested into growth, while purchasing power is chewed up by persistent currency debasement. Japan never did suffer real deflation (that was a lie), it suffered massive inflation: they debased the Yen to garbage levels, drastically chopping down the standard of living of the typical Japanese person, wiping out their wealth, eroding the value of their output per capita. Only in a twisted, failed Keynesian experiment could one confuse such epic scale inflation with deflation. What they thought was deflation was an economic heat death due to their productive capital being tied up in low yield debt.

moogly 9mo ago

In a "might makes right" world, Europe clearly needs more might, and then it makes sense to improve relations with China; not a lot of options.

alephnerd 9mo ago
The EU can't mend ties with China without giving up on Ukraine as China's FM Wang Yi has stated [0] on multiple occasions [1]. Additionally, in the Chinese foreign policy space, the EU is viewed as weak [2], and largely through the lense of the US-China rivalry (which is how the US views the EU as well now). [0] - https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/china-tells-eu-it-cannot-afford-russian-loss-ukraine-war-sources-say https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3316875/ch... [1] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-russia-discuss-ukraine-reach-consensus-japan-during-chinese-ministers-2025-12-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-russia-discuss-ukr... [2] - https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.htm https://fddi.fudan.edu.cn/_t2515/57/f8/c21257a743416/page.ht...
- sekai 9mo ago
  > The EU can't mend ties with China without giving up on Ukraine as China's FM Wang Yi has stated [0] At the end of the day China cares more about Europe than Russia. Because that's where the real money is.
  - alephnerd 9mo ago
    At the end of the day, their Foreign Minister and their entire foreign policy apparatus has consistently stated they will prioritize Russia over the EU for national security reasons (Central Asia, North Korea, Japan). The EU signing an FTA with India on Jan 27th is also a negative sign for China-EU relations.
    - petesergeant 9mo ago
      Foreign Ministries of all countries are known to speak the unvarnished truth at all time

Devasta 9mo ago

"How did you go bankrupt? Two ways: gradually and then suddenly." --Ernest Hemingway

wtcactus 9mo ago

With Trump pressuring the independence of the central bank, this doesn't seem symbolism at all. It might very well be that the USA will face a period of high inflation soon if we continue down this path of high government spending and no independent central bank to put a break on it. And I can't even understand why this obsession of lowering interest rates in the USA. The economy is doing great, there's no shortage of investment money going around. There's really no reason to lower in the interest rates before we tackle the leftover inflation that still comes from the COVID measures. It's Trump's personal insecurities playing again and not allowing anyone to tell him "no". What a child.

pepperball 9mo ago
> And I can't even understand why this obsession of lowering interest rates in the USA. You have to understand how much the middle and lower classes can become addicted to cheap lines of credit made accessible to them.

wnevets 9mo ago

Trump is making China great again

vld_chk 9mo ago

If this is a symbolism, then why 30YR Treasuries are YTH despite FED rate cuts throughout the year?

throw0101a 9mo ago

> It's all a sliding slope until it reaches a breaking point and falls off like a cliff. "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.” * https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/102579-how-did-you-go-bankrupt-two-ways-gradually-then-suddenly https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/102579-how-did-you-go-bankr...

HarHarVeryFunny 9mo ago

Far more important, I'd say, are the European countries having already got together to discuss joint sanctions/tariffs against the USA (their nominal NATO partner) if Trump moves to seize Greenland. Macron has also said that he wants no part of Trump's (billion dollar entrance fee) "peace board" that he's going to be pushing at Davos. A divorce from the USA would certainly hurt Europe, but it will also hurt the USA and it's ability to defend itself if it loses access to European intelligence and ability to have forward located military bases and refueling locations. The Republican's are really shooting themselves, and the US, in the foot here by not standing up to Trump and therefore indicating that all this craziness is Trump rather than an enduring US policy that they support. Even if they flip flop when Trump is out of office, the rest of the world is never going to trust the US again.

jacquesm 9mo ago
Precisely. If the USA wants to be trusted at all it needs to act now or it will be too late. This is the precipice and without action from Congress & the Senate the rest of the world will make up their own mind about the country as a whole. This is probably one of the most expensive moments in history.
- HaZeust 9mo ago
  One of the most expensive moments in history so far
  - jacquesm 9mo ago
    Fair, but since we can't look into the future that's an obvious thing. Every maximum is always a maximum 'so far'.
    - HaZeust 9mo ago
      It's more of a Simpsons reference haha, sorry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfpPArfDTGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfpPArfDTGw

kwanbix 9mo ago

It’s crazy to see how Trump has made the U.S. look like a worse partner than China, or at least just as bad.

xwolfi 9mo ago
Way worse. I live in China but I'm French and I was saying to my gf yday night, to my own surprise: "China has never humiliated, insulted or threatened in such a gross, childish, pointless way. We might be better off supporting a Taiwan reintegration and abandon Ukraine to Russia for an Eurasian alliance, than let the US talk to us like that - even frigging Putin never crossed the line to mockery as often as Trump and his goons". Maybe I overreact, but what a change of opinion from my grandad who saw the US land in Normandy... This credit we gave them is running out and I'd rather have a cold calculating dictator that tells me the population is too stupid to vote (common feeling in China) than an unstable mercurial dictator whining he didn't get a pretty prize. And if Trump wants to talk about boats 500 years ago, how long does he think we've been in friendly contact with Russia and China ?

complianceowl 9mo ago

[flagged]

etc-hosts 9mo ago
I think we should all be more shocked the US kidnapped the leader of another country.
- OrvalWintermute 9mo ago
  That previous US leaders permitted Western Hemisphere nations to get so in bed with rival hegemonies for so long is the shocking thing. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis?
  - etc-hosts 9mo ago
    I closely follow all of this, to the detriment of my job. I'm amused that the US State Dept's PR is that "Maduro is selling oil to our enemies." We've frozen Venezuela out from buying or selling anything from any other country. This is how economic sanctions work. If a company or country does business with Venezuela, we block them from doing business in the USA. What else is Venezuela supposed to do? Of course they're going to sell oil to countries that we don't like. It's the first thing that happens when we place severe economic sanctions on another country.
ogogmad 9mo ago
> The EU and Canada is [sic] upset because of Trumps use of force [...] to acquire land via direct negotiations with Greenland natives A lie. Opinion polls suggest 85% of Greenlanders oppose the territory joining the US. > As Americans Would you bloody stop? Most of us here aren't Americans.
- complianceowl 9mo ago
  [flagged]
deleted 9mo ago

qwertox 9mo ago

It's like Trump and his followers are not aware how fragile this entire system is, and if they are aware, they don't seem to be aware of the risks, and that the most likely outcome is that the world is in a less good condition than before. A big child that got the wish granted to play president.

billy99k 9mo ago

[flagged]

bigyabai 9mo ago
> If Taiwan thinks they will get support from these countries that are now heavily invested in China, they need to think again. Please explain in detail how you think the Canadian military would deter a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. Taiwan needs a joint force in the Pacific, not individually committed nations. If "America First" policy extends to Taiwanese diplomacy, the island is as good as gone.

lenerdenator 9mo ago

> It's symbolism. But it's important symbolism. Far more notable, I think, is Macron saying this morning that Europe needs more investment from China. Canada signing a deal with China to allow their cars to be sold in the country. The better move would be to invest internally. China wants a hegemony, whether they acknowledge it out loud or not. As Europe and Canada start seeking Chinese investment, the Chinese will seek something in return. They're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. I'd also like to think that the American/Western investment in places like China and Russia are part of how we got to where we're at now. It became apparent for Western capital that human rights aren't necessarily compatible with economic growth and can even run contrary to it. Eventually that mindset permeates a society, and it has in the US. A large plurality of the population thinks that a billionaire strongman is necessary to remain competitive in the global marketplace. This mindset didn't show up overnight, it was a slow burn. Some of it was fueled by the demographic transitions of the last fifty years, some by American economic anxiety - which was caused by American/Western investment in China - and the rest of the West has the same problems in those departments that the US has to one extent or another. The European/Canadian welfare state that provided protection from some of the economic anxiety that was seen in the US must get its funding from somewhere, and you get it from taxing economic expansion. Economic expansion relies on at least some population growth. Right now, you don't see native population growth in most Western countries. They have to have people immigrate in to stay competitive. In pretty much all of these countries, you've seen at least some friction between the "native" population and immigrants. You'll see more of that in the future, and that's how the Canadian/European Trump will show up. Doubly so in Europe, because their nation-states are partially defined in terms of ethnicity.

Barrin92 9mo ago
>the Chinese will seek something in return. They're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. of course they aren't but it's also obvious what they want. Design a new global order where they have a seat at the table and get to determine standards, processes and technologies. That's the point of investing in telecommunications, cars, and so on. But what they don't want is annex European territory. China is still ambitious enough to imagine itself as creating new international orders rather than just creating disorder, and so they'll likely make for a better partner for any civilized country than powers that descend into 19th century colonial neo-imperialism run by people who may as well come straight out of the Warhammer universe.

filloooo 9mo ago

The problem is that the EU and China are both looking for export markets to fund their economic growth, unless EU blows up it's welfare system and prints money like the US, the two are competitors. But doing that would undermine Euro's credibility, as the EU is a loose union of countries with their distinct interests and politics, also member countries would compete on outspending each other as the Euro would have been essentially free money, a Euro debt crisis on turbocharge. So, the EU can never print like the US. The EU and China will be rivals.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

NelsonMinar 9mo ago

The article has a quote from the investment director saying it is not symbolism. "The decision is rooted in the poor U.S. government finances, which make us think that we need to make an effort to find an alternative way of conducting our liquidity and risk management"

creativeSlumber 9mo ago

> It's all a sliding slope until it reaches a breaking point and falls off like a cliff. Would it be a gradual decline or a step change after some point?

antirez 9mo ago

I believe this is actually the center of the matter. Trump surely does not represents all the Americans, but I believe he is currently acting in a so aggressive way because America has a problem, that is: for years governments of other countries are selling more and more US bonds (because the United States look progressively less able to pay back), and given the US huge debt, this would mean an incredible problem for a country that for decades spent ways more than it was possible or wise (and, this spending also helped to fuel the IT strong position the country achieved). So, now, in order to have compelling arguments to ask for certain conditions, Trump is acting in this way, since in order to have something that others don't want to give to America, America needs to be a problem the other countries. This is a way to amplify your position in the world, that is otherwise not as strong as in the past. We used to watch Russia doing something like that, and could not expect to see this from USA. But things evolve...

JumpCrisscross 9mo ago

> It's symbolism It’s not. If we go to war with Denmark, there is a real chance we sanction them as well.

drecked 9mo ago

One of the strongest reasons to hold onto the dollar is the stability and finances of the U.S. government. But in the last month, the U.S. President has pushed for a criminal investigation of the Fed chair because he isn’t doing what the U.S. President is asking, has threatened to start a war of conquest against a NATO ally, has simultaneously said increased taxes on imports will reduce the deficit but also that he will distribute it all away, has used import taxes as a geopolitical weapon, has said he runs Venezuela and one of the first things he’s done is injected the US government ahead of all other creditors. All of this in the first few weeks of 2026. And every one of these actions destroy the very basis of why the world has confidence in the finances of the U.S. govt.

junofan 9mo ago
Well if the Fed Chair did commit a crime, it’s probably better that be investigated and resolved. I wouldn’t put my money in a country where the monetary authorities commit crimes with impunity. I’m not sure what your other points have to do with the monetary authority.
- epgui 9mo ago
  That “if” is doing a lot of work.
- Spooky23 9mo ago
  When did you stop beating your wife?
- andrew_lettuce 9mo ago
  Maybe you should look into the context. The investigation is supposedly over lying to Congress about the true cost of the renovation of the federal reserve HQ. Despite being a topic week within the current president's wheelhouse, this is incredibly flimsy even if true. It sure looks like a politically motivated attack because the Fed chair won't let Trump dictate monetary policy - thank God!

estimator7292 9mo ago

Shocking how the US has pushed all global allies into putting more trust in China. And by shocking I mean the thing where everyone saw it come screaming a mile off.

akst 9mo ago

> It's symbolism Ah no... this is people's money, and they likely came to conclusion the US bonds are inconsistent with the funds goals and risk appetite. Within the first few paragraphs of the article you see this: > The decision is rooted in the poor U.S. government finances, which make us think that we need to make an effort to find an alternative way of conducting our liquidity and risk management If you're dealing with peoples pensions, even if there are higher growth portion of the funds allocation, you've got to make sure there are portions of the fund that's stable enough to be regularly liquidated to send out regular payments. Given the whole hoo-ha with trump trying appoint their own guy into the federal reserve, it isn't that surprising the fund managers have decided to decrease their allocation.

stoneforger 9mo ago

The deliberate push to alienate allies pushing them to the other pole (China), is setting up the stage for confrontation. It can then become self-evident China is out to eat the USs lunch so they need to be dealt with. And all the years of China this, China that, will become true and it will be much more palatable to go hot over China or anything else. China will become the new defacto evil empire and everyone in the US will nod in agreement and decide it's time to do something about it. It's gaslighting at a global scale and it's working fine. Probably something like 2027. I don't know if those Macron messages are real but in Europe we are cooked because it's okay to not want global domination, but it's bad when you're being manipulated and you don't even realize why.