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Israel used Palantir technologies in pager attack in Lebanon

548 points by cramsession 10mo ago

ComputerGuru 10mo ago
Back when Google's motto was "Do no evil" we used to joke about Palantir embracing the opposite ethos.
- jjk166 10mo ago
  Would that be "Do all evil" or "Do exclusively evil" or "Do no good"?
  - gs17 10mo ago
    There's also the option of "Do Some Evil".
    - deleted 10mo ago
      [deleted]
  - asadm 10mo ago
    Do Evil, Yes!
    - toomanyrichies 10mo ago
      Was this by chance a "No, money down!" Simpsons reference? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yuL6PcgSgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yuL6PcgSgM
      - asadm 10mo ago
        it is now lol
  - usgroup 10mo ago
    evil(x) -> not(do(x)) which equates to not(evil(x)) or not(do(x)). The negation would be evil(x) and do(x) by DeMorgan's law. If what you mean is all(x), evil(x) -> not(do(x)) then the negation would be exists(x), evil(x) and do(x).
throwaway091025 10mo ago
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- cramsession 10mo ago
  Israel made the entire world a less safe place by using consumer electronics as bombs shipped out into the public in one of the worst acts of terrorism ever recorded.
- asveikau 10mo ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/world/middleeast/lebanon-funeral-pager-attack.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/world/middleeast/lebanon-... > Fatima was in the kitchen on Tuesday when a pager on the table began to beep, her aunt said. She picked up the device to bring it to her father and was holding it when it exploded, mangling her face and leaving the room covered in blood, she said.
  - deadbolt 10mo ago
    They don't mind maiming children.
    - asveikau 10mo ago
      She died. I think there are also rules against attacking combatants in civilian contexts, like their homes.
  - deleted 10mo ago
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nalnq 10mo ago
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- oldandboring 10mo ago
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impossiblefork 10mo ago
I actually consider the pager attack to be legal. There's obviously criticism of it, but I'm fairly sure you're allowed to do this kind of thing by laws of war. Obviously this creates a huge problem for pretty much everyone though, since we can imagine that our ordinary consumer products from all sorts countries could similarly explode if we ended up at war with the manufacturers.
- cramsession 10mo ago
  Attacking a civilian population is a war crime.
  - impossiblefork 10mo ago
    * * *
    - cramsession 10mo ago
      “Expected” is not enough. These bombs didn’t go off in active war zone. They went off in public in Lebanon, and maimed and killed civilians.
      - impossiblefork 10mo ago
        I found this thesis from some guy doing a master in international operation law at the Swedish defence college, https://fhs.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1974147/FULLTEXT01.pdf https://fhs.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1974147/FULLTEXT... and I interpret his analysis as that it was targeted enough to be legal.
      - dlubarov 10mo ago
        The principle of proportionality is explicitly about expectations, i.e. expected military advantage vs expected collateral damage. You seem to be holding Israel to an impossible standard of guaranteeing zero collateral damage, which IHL does not require because no military is capable of that.
648373628229 10mo ago
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myth_drannon 10mo ago
One of the most sucessful integelligence operations ever, absolutely brilliant. And the brilliance in my opinion is that the targeting was not your regular Hizbollah terrorists but only higher ranking members the one who were given the beepers. So basically cutting the head of the snake. I doubt Palantir had any involvement, just trying to get some credit. The operation to attack the supply chain was started long before Palantir had grown and could offer something.
- giraffe_lady 10mo ago
  The brilliance in the targeting was in doing pagers, which are disproportionately carried by doctors and other medical workers. One of the most effective acts of terrorism in history.
  - myth_drannon 10mo ago
    [flagged]
  - apical_dendrite 10mo ago
    You seem to be under the impression that they targeted pagers that were distributed through civilian channels. These were pagers that were purchased BY Hezbollah to be used on Hezbollah's private, secure network, not on a public network. These were not pagers used by a hospital for normal healthcare work. Healthcare workers were carrying these pagers because Hezbollah effectively serves as a shadow state in Lebanon. So if a healthcare worker had one of these pagers, it was because they were part of that hierarchy.
    - giraffe_lady 10mo ago
      Again, so what? You aren't off the hook because of the actions of your enemies. It was obvious these would be going off around civilians, in homes and public spaces, including hospitals, and they chose to go through with the attack knowing this. That the civilians who would be around them would have no particular reason to fear or suspect this attack, because the vector was a common daily object. It was an attack on civilians in pursuit of a non-military political goal. Terrorism. I think it was pretty successful on the terms of the people who carried it out but call it what it is.
tradertef 10mo ago
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- kyboren 10mo ago
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  - tradertef 10mo ago
    False equivalency.
- apical_dendrite 10mo ago
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  - tradertef 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - hbogert 10mo ago
      It's okay to dislike both parties
      - tradertef 10mo ago
        This is exactly one group wants to do. Be vocal, throw out many lies.. and people will start thinking both sides are (very) bad and there is no reason for them to be involved. This thinking allows Israel to commit genocide, extend its borders, bomb journalist, cut aid, arrest..
    - kyboren 10mo ago
      It's a war, you know. People die. Sometimes in perfectly legal and justified strikes, sometimes in attacks that contravene the laws of war. And given that Hamas uses the civilians under their control as both a sword and a shield, and that Egypt simply refuses their obligation under IHL to allow refugees to flee, collateral damage is an unfortunate inevitability. Lumping together all civilians killed by Israel in the course of war is overly reductive: Some were killed in unlawful intentional acts, some were unfortunate collateral damage of lawful acts, and some were intentional victims of Hamas brutality, sacrificed at the altar of making Israel look bad.
btbuildem 10mo ago
> Palantir ended up having to rent a second-floor building that housed its Tel Aviv office, to accommodate the intelligence analysts who needed tutorials Has anyone here tried using their software? It's salesforce-level fucked. They did a great job spewing lofty concepts, with their ontologies and their kinetic layers, but in the end it all ends up being a giant wormy ERP. There might be one good idea in there (articulating the schemas and transformations in separate layers) but overall it's a perfect vibe match for orwellian bureaucracies.
- robertkoss 10mo ago
  I think Foundry is insanely impressive tbh. If you set it up correctly, its insanely powerful
  - lolive 10mo ago
    I second that. My company is really changing its point of view on data at scale thanks to their tools. [note: SAP announces DataSphere for 2026, and their stack is surprisingly similar :)]
    - robertkoss 10mo ago
      Yeah, but Foundry is so ahead, not seeing DataSphere competing there honestly. The only reason is, you already are on SAP and don't want a second system. Also the engineering / product culture @Palantir is diametrically opposed to what exists at SAP, so I favour Palantir.
- _DeadFred_ 10mo ago
  An ERP where instead of investing in building up your in-house domain experts, your pay consulting fees to train another company's staff on the knowledge, then pay to access it. Crazy how modern companies want to be McFranchise level of capable. What are you adding as a company if you outsource everything that can make your company a differentiator and your company is just plug and play cogs?
IshKebab 10mo ago
Yeah sure. Seems like a big leap from "they use Palintir's software" to implying that it was somehow important for this attack. Also did they really call it Operation Grim Beeper? Hilarious if true (but I suspect not given how codenames are meant to work).
- jazzyjackson 10mo ago
  Grim Beeper was coined by Michael Doran of the Hudson Institute, it was not an internal code name
AdmiralAsshat 10mo ago
[flagged]
- _DeadFred_ 10mo ago
  Ironic that it's already full of flag bombed comments (just from the opposite side of what you are complaining about).
  - deleted 10mo ago
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- s5300 10mo ago
  [dead]
- oldandboring 10mo ago
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franktankbank 10mo ago
This reads like an ad for the geriatrics in power. They don't even mention what the hell they contributed but did mention that whatever it was was "AI powered" rofl.
_DeadFred_ 10mo ago
This conversation already has comments on one side flagged to invisibility. If you are going to allow these conversations, but only allow one side, then Hacker News is not about discussion but about what?
- dang 10mo ago
  If there are flagged comments which are not breaking the site guidelines, I'd like links to take a look at. The moderation intention is for comments which break the site guidelines to be flagged, regardless of which side they are or aren't on. It's not possible to reach this state perfectly, of course.
  - krautburglar 10mo ago
    Dude, your flag function is abused to no end, and you don't really do anything about it. One of the earliest comments I've made was one on semi-recent X11 history, and got flagged for it, because apparently everything is political now. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45796728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45796728
    - dang 10mo ago
      I agree with you that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45796728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45796728 should not have been flagged, and have fixed that now.
      - krautburglar 10mo ago
        The post isn't the point. The point is that you have people abusing the flag mechanism. Maybe you should start ignoring their flags when they abuse it?
        philipkglass 10mo ago
        That's already implemented. I overused flagging at one point in my account history and my flags stopped having any effect. I eventually emailed the moderators and pledged to be more judicious with my flagging if they'd give me the power back, and they gave it back.
UltraSane 10mo ago
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- andrewcamel 10mo ago
  Yeah... requires serious mental gymnastics to argue otherwise. Military/terrorist group procures communication devices to coordinate military operations. Explosive is sized to injure the holder, not bystanders - per CCTV videos, eg: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2024/sep/18/cctv-captures-pagers-simultaneously-exploding-across-lebanon-video-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2024/sep/18/cctv-cap... Hard to get more precise/targeted than that! In contrast to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEoK6oihqhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEoK6oihqhs
  - FridayoLeary 10mo ago
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    - UltraSane 10mo ago
      What is really annoying is the same people saying this incredibly targeted attack on Hezbollah is a horrible act of terrorism are completely silent on WHY Israel did it, which is because Hezbollah started shooting thousands of missiles at Israel in support of Hamas after the horrific attacks on Oct 7 2023. Just imagine the reaction the US would have if Mexico started shooting thousands of missiles at a US city?
- chokominto 10mo ago
  Yep
computerex 10mo ago
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- jameshilliard 10mo ago
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  - sporkxrocket 10mo ago
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  - QuercusMax 10mo ago
    Were the children terrorists too?
    - jameshilliard 10mo ago
      > Were the children terrorists too? They were family members of terrorists, that's how they got a hold of the pagers.
  - judah 10mo ago
    The Lebanese Ministry of Health stated that the attack had killed a confirmed 12 civilians, while killing 30 Hezbollah members. 1 civilian death for every 2.5 combatant deaths. For comparison, in World War II, there were an estimated 2 million civilian deaths and 5.3 million combatant deaths. 1 civilian death for every 2.6 combatant deaths. Those are remarkably similar ratios. Take that as you will.
    - jameshilliard 10mo ago
      > The Lebanese Ministry of Health stated that the attack had killed a confirmed 12 civilians, while killing 30 Hezbollah members. Source? AFAIU The Lebanese Ministry of Health stated 12 total were killed in operation grim beeper, this number did not appear to exclude Hezbollah members.[0] They listed 2 children which AFAIU were friends/family members of Hezbollah members. They list four of those killed as healthcare workers but don't appear to identify if those healthcare workers were also Hezbollah members. Keep in mind the attack was more designed to injure rather than kill, with nearly 3000 injured. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2kn10xxldo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2kn10xxldo
dang 10mo ago
All: before commenting here, please verify that you're feeling something different—quite different—from anger and a desire to fight this war. That is not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for. This site is for curious, thoughtful, respectful, and kind interaction—most of all with those you may disagree with, regardless of how bad they are or you feel they are. If that's not possible, it's ok not to post. We'd rather have a thread with no comments than a thread with aggressive comments, let alone nationalistic or religious flamewar. There is far too much aggression in the thread below, which is is understandable, but please don't add more. It provides a fleeting sensation of relief, but then it just makes everything worse. Note this, from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
knickerbockeroo 10mo ago
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- richardfeynman 10mo ago
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  - hearsathought 10mo ago
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    - richardfeynman 10mo ago
      Everything you say here is false. 1. Israel's stated goal is to neuter Hamas and return the hostages, not kill civilians. 2. Arabs speak a semitic language; the "semites" in "anti-semite" has always referred to Jews. 3. Jews, including white Ashkenazi European Jews, are levantine in origin. Their lineage traces to Judea. 4. "Antisemitic" means anti-Jew. You are using it to mean anti-Arab, but arabs are not semites 5. You did make all that up!
      - hearsathought 10mo ago
        > 1. Israel's stated goal is to neuter Hamas and return the hostages, not kill civilians. And yet so many dead civilians. It's almost like a genocial terrorist country like israel always lie. Also, I was referring to israel's genocide of the semites in palestine to found "israel" up to present day. You conveniently forgot about it. > 2. Arabs speak a semitic language; the "semites" in "anti-semite" has always referred to Jews. Arabs are ethnic semites who speak a semitic language. "Israelis" are non-semitic europeans pretending to be "jews". Ethnic europeans are not semites and can never be semites because they come from an entire separate branch of the human family tree. > 3. Jews, including white Ashkenazi European Jews, are levantine in origin. Their lineage traces to Judea. No they do not. Maybe a handful. > 4. "Antisemitic" means anti-Jew. No it does not because semite doesn't mean "jew". A semite and a jew are two different things. > You are using it to mean anti-Arab, but arabs are not semites No. I'm using semite to mean semite. Arabs surely are semites. Europeans are not though. > 5. You did make all that up! If arabs are not semites, then what are they? You say arabs are not semites and I'm the liar? I'm making shit up?
pbiggar 10mo ago
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- kyboren 10mo ago
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  - hall0ween 10mo ago
    Have ye any citations?
    - kyboren 10mo ago
      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-mossad-pager-walkie-talkie-hezbollah-plot-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-mossad-pager-walkie-tal... > Gabriel said Mossad had learned that Hezbollah was buying pagers from Gold Apollo, a company in Taiwan. > "When they are buying from us, they have zero clue that they are buying from the Mossad. We make like the 'Truman Show,' everything is controlled by us behind the scene," Gabriel said. "In their experience, everything is normal. Everything was 100% kosher." > To further the plot, Mossad hired the Gold Apollo saleswoman Hezbollah was used to working with, who was unaware she was working with Mossad. According to Gabriel, she offered Hezbollah the first batch of pagers as an upgrade, free of charge. By September 2024, Hezbollah had about 5,000 pagers in their pockets. https://cybernews.com/cyber-war/how-did-israels-mossad-spy-agency-plan-the-hezbollah-pager-cyberattack-heres-what-we-know-so-far/ https://cybernews.com/cyber-war/how-did-israels-mossad-spy-a... > Going analog has been a signature move for terror groups ever since the September 11th attacks as a way to successfully mask communications from Western militaries and government defense agencies. > A source cited by the Wall Street Journal said many of the affected devices were from a new shipment delivered to Hezbollah militants in recent days. > Apparently, the encrypted pagers currently in use by Hezbollah were brand new models and bought in bulk for the members just a few months ago, several sources told Reuters. I'm sure you can find more if you look; there's a lot of articles about it.
    - hersko 10mo ago
      They literally sold the beepers to Hezbollah. This is common knowledge. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-say-sources-2024-09-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-exp... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-former-mossad-agents-detail-explosive-pagers-hezbollah-terrorists-plot-60-minutes-transcript/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-former-mossad-agents-det... etc...
bitkrieg 10mo ago
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- jameshilliard 10mo ago
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  - asadm 10mo ago
    what side is the terrorist here?
  - sporkxrocket 10mo ago
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joecool1029 10mo ago
So, what exactly did Palantir provide? I'm staying out of commenting whether or not this was legal/justified and asking strictly what service this was that was sold. Is this like, live location information provided from social media/carriers/etc? Is it AI guessing who might be a target based on collected data? EDIT: I ask because this sort of claim could just be marketing on Panantir's end and the quotes and this post never actually explained what it was other than saying their software was used.
- myth_drannon 10mo ago
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- alephnerd 10mo ago
  Most likely as a data lakehouse, but the Palantir angle is most likely overstated - Palantir has a tiny presence in Israel, and has had a history of overstating it's intel and defense credentials (eg. A three letter agency that churned Palantir was named for years after before they stopped calling them out). That said, I have heard some positive feedback about Palantir's data integration capabilities - most other vendors don't provide bespoke professional services to build niche integrations for even low ACV customers.
  - missingcolours 10mo ago
    The era of microservices and micro teams gives all "company X uses us" claims a different vibe. Maybe it used to actually mean "this is the thing Facebook uses to power its website on millions of servers" but now it's usually like "the team of 6 that runs the analytics platform for Apple Fitness+ uses this on 5 servers"
  - joecool1029 10mo ago
    Thanks for attempting to answer what I was asking about. I have had difficulty finding out more about it, the alleged ex-Palantir commenter said this would be part of their Gotham product, but most of what I could find on that was buzzword data visualization stuff. If their old post history and what you're saying is accurate, then it's really just a database integration tool with a nice interface?
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
orochimaaru 10mo ago
I’ve said this before and cannot be said enough. Palantir is a data platform. I think they optimize for knowledge graphs (ontology). It has several uses. It’s seems to be fashionable to blame Palantir these days. But then wouldn’t you also blame other things - Java and database open source, Python, Linux foundation, etc. for all this. I think people just want to blame without analyzing what else could be blamed to. Really it’s most of the free software community too. Disclaimer: I don’t consider what Israel did unlawful. They were under attack by hezb and Hamas. They were within rights to retaliate. And no, hezb and Hamas don’t care about civilian casualties.
- jazzyjackson 10mo ago
  Palintir is people, specifically people who are tasked with onboarding customers to use the data platform. They get to choose their users in a way that Java and Linux do not. (I hold no ill will against them, I'd rather Israel win than the other guys)
  - orochimaaru 10mo ago
    Yes the foundations can mandate that the tools are forbidden to use in military and intelligence applications. But they won’t. And I’m fine with that. My point is foundations have licensing power while corporations regulate it through sales. Each decision is connected to money. And no one is going to say no to more money.
TriangleEdge 10mo ago
For those curious, you can find videos of what Palantir Gotham is on YouTube. It might help you be more informed before you post here.
- joecool1029 10mo ago
  So rather than point us at more Palantir marketing and YouTuber conspiracy theories, why not be a little more specific (if you can) and just tell us a bit more about that since you are allegedly an ex-Palantir? EDIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42882440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42882440
jseip 10mo ago
"please verify that you're feeling something different—quite different—from anger and a desire to fight this war." Um, why is it inappropriate to be outraged that international humanitarian lwas are actively being violated by Israel, in Gaza?
- SpitSalute 10mo ago
  I don't think they're saying it's inappropriate. It seems like they're saying this isn't the place to share your outrage.
  - TimorousBestie 10mo ago
    Inappropriate and “this isn’t the place” are synonyms.
    - tomhow 10mo ago
      That's not really true. The point is that there's a difference between how you feel about a topic and how you express it. People will have different feelings and different intensities of feelings about a topic like this. That's normal, understandable and valid. As dang has said elsewhere in this thread and in other comparable threads, before you comment about a topic like this, there needs to be some processing or metabolizing of those feelings. HN is a place for learning, not venting or battling. And there is much to learn about these topics by discussing them curiously. I certainly do, and I see others doing that too. That's a significant reason why I think it's important for us to make space for these discussions here. But if the threads are overwhelmed by people expressing extreme emotions, there's less to learn, other than that people on both sides are angry about this issue, which we already knew.
    - SpitSalute 10mo ago
      This might help. Appropriate = your outrage(not shared here) in general. Inappropriate = sharing your outrage here.
- dang 10mo ago
  It's not inappropriate to be outraged. What's inappropriate is to post comments to Hacker News that vent aggression at other commenters and/or those on the other side of the conflict. Doing that is against both HN's rules and, more importantly, the intended spirit of this community (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). A certain amount of processing or, if you like, metabolization needs to happen between those two steps. As I say in many contexts, you may not owe the other side better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20owe%20community&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). Here's an analogy which may (or not) be helpful. Even in the middle of a war, it sometimes happens that enemies meet and discuss things. Such discussions won't help anything or anyone if they just consist of yelling at each other. p.s. I appreciate your question and apologize that you had to reply here instead of to my comment itself (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46221528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46221528). We have to turn off replies on pinned comments, but I hate giving the impression that we don't want to hear responses or objections.
horaceradish 10mo ago
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jseip 10mo ago
Why is it inappropriate to be outraged that international humanitarian laws are actively being violated by Israel, in Gaza? Can someone help me understand?
- ebbi 10mo ago
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  - hersko 10mo ago
    I can't imagine why Israel was carrying out strikes in Lebanon after October 8th. It's a total mystery.
    - ebbi 10mo ago
      I can't imagine why the attacks on October 7th happened. It's a complete mystery given life started on October 7th.
- noitpmeder 10mo ago
  Because defending civilians who Israel is targeting is, in today's world, considered antisemitic
- demarq 10mo ago
  Because in the long book of history, HN wants to look absolutely neutral during this episode. That’s apparently the good look
ThrowawayTestr 10mo ago
[flagged]
jmyeet 10mo ago
There are a few different angles to this. 1. If any other state had done this, we'd be correctly calling this a terrorist attack and there wouldn't be any question about it; and 2. Palantir was a partner in developing several AI systems used for targeting missile strikes in Gaza. Collectively these tend to be called Lavender [1][2]. Another of these systems is called "Where's Daddy". What does it do? It targets alleged militants at home so their families with be collateral damage [3]; and 3. These systems could not exist without the labor of the humans who create them so it raises questions about the ethics of everything we do as software engineers and tech people. This is not a new debate. For example, there were debates about who should be culpable for the German death machine in WW2. Guards at the camp? Absolutely. Civilians at IG Farben who are making Zyklon-B? Do they know what it's being used for? Do they have any choice in the matter? My personal opinion is that anyone continuing to work for Palantir can no longer plead ignorance. You're actively contributing to profiting from killing, starving and torturing civilians. Do with that what you will. In a just world, you'd have to answer for your actions at The Hague or Nuremberg 2.0, ultimately. [1]: https://www.business-humanrights.org/es/%C3%BAltimas-noticias/palantir-allegedly-enables-israels-ai-targeting-amid-israels-war-in-gaza-raising-concerns-over-war-crimes/ https://www.business-humanrights.org/es/%C3%BAltimas-noticia... [2]: https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ [3]: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-ai-system-wheres-daddy-strikes-hamas-family-homes-2024 https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-ai-system-wheres-dadd...
- richardfeynman 10mo ago
  * * *
  - Cyph0n 10mo ago
    So the indiscriminate mass detonation of explosive devices is not terrorism? Are you aware of how many civilian casualties there were as a result of this attack? Would this be acceptable if Hezbollah did this to Israeli military officers?
    - richardfeynman 10mo ago
Dig1t 10mo ago
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- hersko 10mo ago
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  - ebbi 10mo ago
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- ebbi 10mo ago
  According to many US politicians, it's a thing to celebrate (Fetterman stands out as one, having received a golden pager from an Israeli official). And the mildly veiled threats on social media to people speaking out about Palestine referencing the pager attacks that goes unpunished by social media platforms.
therobots927 10mo ago
HN let this one fall through the cracks I guess. Usually this article would get flagged in under 10 minutes of being up.
- nextstep 10mo ago
  It was flagged and enough people complained about censorship that is was resurrected with a pinned post from dang about how we should be civil
  - therobots927 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - nextstep 10mo ago
      [flagged]
    - dang 10mo ago
      We stopped using the word 'civil' years ago. Commenters here need to follow the rules, and the rules don't go away when the topic is a tough one. On the contrary, they apply more, as https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html makes clear.
      - therobots927 10mo ago
        Happy to follow the rules when free discussion is allowed. Watching this topic get censored aggressively on here during some of the darkest months for Palestinians eroded my respect for your “rules”.
        dang 10mo ago
        We've specifically protected, carefully moderated, and kept open many threads about this topic, at considerable cost, because each time one of these appears on HN, the mods can kiss the rest of their day goodbye, not to mention look forward to streams of abuse [1]. Forgive me therefore if I dispute your claim of "censored aggressively". To me that feels like not taking yes for an answer. That's understandable, because the people who feel passionately about any topic (call it X) always feel like X is vastly underrepresented, and even "censored aggressively", on HN. We can say things like "frontpage space is the scarcest resource" and "we can't have too much repetition" till the cows come home, but it won't take this feeling away. Even when X is literally the most discussed topic on HN, we get people claiming that X is being censored aggressively—it's not even uncommon [2]. This is a function of how people feel and nothing else. [1] I'm not comparing this to the suffering of the people in the actual situation. That is obvious of course, but since someone will accuse me of doing that if I don't say this, I'm saying this. [2] If you want an example, this one is engraved in my memory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916. How someone could turn the most-discussed topic on the entire site into "not any mention" and "censored aggressively" still boggles my mind.
meidanor 10mo ago
[flagged]
- peanuty1 10mo ago
  The pager bombs injured and maimed many civilians including children.
submeta 10mo ago
[flagged]
stevenalowe 10mo ago
“The tech was used” but how, specifically, in regards to Operation Grim Reaper? The implication is that it was used to select targets but if that it true then does that mean there are still unexploded pagers in use?
- breedmesmn 10mo ago
  [flagged]
sleepybrett 10mo ago
Palantir is just 'CIA as a service'.
proshno 10mo ago
[dead]
wunderland 10mo ago
The scale of these terrorist attacks seems to be lost by some in the comments here. Here’s a documentary showing the extent, including all of the undeniable civilians that were injured or killed: https://youtu.be/2mqqDTIs4vE https://youtu.be/2mqqDTIs4vE
- baskin31 10mo ago
  These pagers did not bring down buildings as shown in here. This 'documentary' is all over the place factually with sources from many of the most anti-Israel (not pro-Palestinian) organizations.
  - Qiu_Zhanxuan 10mo ago
    [flagged]
moomoo11 10mo ago
[flagged]
- peanuty1 10mo ago
  The pager bombs injured and maimed many civilians including children.
  - moomoo11 10mo ago
    Yes that’s why I said minimal AOE and also why I said in a war (keyword - we live in real world and war is a very real thing whether we like it or not) minimizing harm to innocents is key. The alternative is 10s of thousands of civilians suffering because their leaders drag them into hell with them. We already see how bad that is..
  - Seattle3503 10mo ago
    It's a shared property of bombs.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
alexashka 10mo ago
This seems fitting: > Yet what is the result, the gain to humanity, of this wonderfully regulated society which has been built solely to make life richer? Millions are on the verge of starvation, hundreds of thousands are spending their lives in producing instruments for the destruction of human life, and millions again are wasting their existence in a dull tragedy of monotony. In every great industrial centre where wealth is most plentifully produced, there is poverty and want. In the rich town where no production is carried on, there is plenty and enjoyment. He who labours hard or produces wealth is in poverty, he who lives in idleness is rich. When the warehouses are full, there is want and hunger. Those without food are forbidden to produce because the demand is already supplied. [0] I highlighted the part that relates to Palantir and most everyone on here reading HN (except you, of course, you're special :)) Which is to say this is nothing new and discussing the minutia of did this specific company do this specific thing when the system that makes this inevitable remains unaddressed is missing the point. Oh well, politics for 99% of people seems to amount to gossip. Did you hear what X said/did? Oh my god, I can't believe it, etc, etc. [0] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/george-barrett-the-anarchist-revolution https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/george-barrett-the-a...
underdeserver 10mo ago
I am in awe of the opinions in this thread. Really. If Israel, unprovoked, randomly carried out this attack it would be one thing. But: 1. Hezbollah had been continuously, deliberately firing rockets at civilians since October 8th, 2023 displacing tens of thousands and killing multiple civilians including 12 children in a playground in Majdal Shams. 2. Hezbollah embeds itself and fires from within civilian population in Lebanon 3. Hezbollah leadership had stated that they intend to escalate their attacks including a ground invasion of Israel I think everyone in this thread criticizing this operation needs to first explain what they would have Israel do in this situation. Because if you think Israel should retaliate against Hezbollah at all, please explain how you, in Israel's shoes, would achieve a comparable result with fewer civilian casualties.
- sreejithr 10mo ago
  [flagged]
- sporkxrocket 10mo ago
  Hezbollah stated repeatedly that they would stop attacking Israel if Israel stopped committing genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza. I know I certainly support them.
  - underdeserver 10mo ago
    > "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
    - sporkxrocket 10mo ago
      Yeah, I agree with them there. That’s just being anti-Zionist, which is a position held by most the world. That’s the equivalent of saying “our struggle will end when Nazi Germany is obliterated”.
- tkel 10mo ago
  If I were Israel, I would have not invaded Gaza, which would have resulted in far fewer civilian casualties, and also would have ended the strikes by Hezbollah. Also, if you look at the data on attacks by Israel against Lebanon, they are disproportionate, Israel launching 10x more airstrikes, even going so far as to level entire city blocks of apartment buildings in Beirut. I remember just on the first day of attacks by Israel against Lebanon, over 1000 civilians were killed. Also Israel refuses to vacate southern Lebanon after a ceasefire agreement, and continues to violate the ceasefire. Just in the last 24h, Israel has bombarded 4 different locations in Central Lebanon with airstrikes. If I were Israel, I would simply stop acting as a fanatic aggressor with no regard for human life.
hereme888 10mo ago
I thought this was old news. I remember commenting on this almost a year ago? Anyways, it's war against a known terrorist group.
rasz 10mo ago
Isnt this just a very effective ad for Palantir? Anyone considering Palantir is of the opinion Pager operation was super successful.
justin66 10mo ago
Interestingly just nine days ago someone here shared a link to the US's Law of War manual for military personnel. It's pretty good for what it is. Since countries base this stuff on the same international treaties they've all signed, it's a guide to Israel's conduct during war (or just about anyone's) as well as the US's. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46147605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46147605 https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD-LAW-OF-WAR-MANUAL-JUNE-2015-UPDATED-JULY%202023.PDF https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD... The question of whether what Israel did with the pagers was legal is not really controversial, or rather, it's not unclear what the law is. Find out the exciting answer in 6.12.4.8 Booby-Traps and Other Devices in the Form of Apparently Harmless Portable Objects Specifically Designed to Explode. (spoiler alert: of course what they did is illegal) In case you were wondering what the big deal was the other day about the US bombing shipwrecked "narco terrorists" there's 7.3 RESPECT AND PROTECTION OF THE WOUNDED, SICK, AND SHIPWRECKED.
- tptacek 10mo ago
  Another really detailed analysis of what happened and the law-of-war implications was posted downthread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46227273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46227273
- UltraSane 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - alexander2002 10mo ago
    [flagged]
    - sysguest 10mo ago
      idk isn't pager operation the textbook example of "trying to avoid civilian deaths" while getting your job done? why is it "genocide"? is becoming hezbollah determined at birth? is hezbollah a race? does average civilian use walkie-talkie? even if hezbollah was a race, after its civilian attack on 2023 (beheading babies, raping and killing even foreigners), I wouldn't even care about what those guys get (also, don't say "humanity" like you represent the whole "humanity") if you ARE talking about palestinian civilians, I don't think israel can do anything more gentlemen-ly to them other than pager-operation: the other option is carpet bombing and direct invasion (which is a completely another topic)
johnnienaked 10mo ago
If this happened to us would we invade Iraq again?
jazzyjackson 10mo ago
This substack doesn't support the claim at all it just quotes a book that makes the claim. The headline is basically as informative as the whole article. Trash content only useful for riling people up.
- chatmasta 10mo ago
  Not even the quoted passage from the book makes the claim in the title. It basically says Palantir had a contract with the IDF during the same time the IDF executed the pager attack. There is zero substantiation of the claim that Palantir assisted with the attack itself. It’s mostly a breathless description of Palantir’s standard operating practice — namely, sending “forward deployed engineers” (consultants) to customers — garnished with some emotional (but clever) wordplay like “Operation Grim Beeper.”
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]
doka_smoka 10mo ago
[dead]
MagicMoonlight 10mo ago
It was one of the greatest acts of deception in history. Absolute genius. Even at our peak we never did anything comparable. It’s like blowing up every single member of the gestapo simultaneously. The resistance could only have dreamed of such a mission.
- sporkxrocket 10mo ago
  The perception gap between Zionists and everyone else around this is astonishing. Zionists are gleeful and the rest of us are horrified and disgusted. I don’t see how we don’t eventually end in an armed conflict as this difference seems unreconcilable.
3seashells 10mo ago
[dead]
_jzlw 10mo ago
[flagged]

548 points by cramsession 10mo ago

ComputerGuru 10mo ago

Back when Google's motto was "Do no evil" we used to joke about Palantir embracing the opposite ethos.

jjk166 10mo ago
Would that be "Do all evil" or "Do exclusively evil" or "Do no good"?
- gs17 10mo ago
  There's also the option of "Do Some Evil".
  - deleted 10mo ago
    [deleted]
- asadm 10mo ago
  Do Evil, Yes!
  - toomanyrichies 10mo ago
    Was this by chance a "No, money down!" Simpsons reference? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yuL6PcgSgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yuL6PcgSgM
    - asadm 10mo ago
      it is now lol
- usgroup 10mo ago
  evil(x) -> not(do(x)) which equates to not(evil(x)) or not(do(x)). The negation would be evil(x) and do(x) by DeMorgan's law. If what you mean is all(x), evil(x) -> not(do(x)) then the negation would be exists(x), evil(x) and do(x).

throwaway091025 10mo ago

[flagged]

cramsession 10mo ago
Israel made the entire world a less safe place by using consumer electronics as bombs shipped out into the public in one of the worst acts of terrorism ever recorded.
asveikau 10mo ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/world/middleeast/lebanon-funeral-pager-attack.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/18/world/middleeast/lebanon-... > Fatima was in the kitchen on Tuesday when a pager on the table began to beep, her aunt said. She picked up the device to bring it to her father and was holding it when it exploded, mangling her face and leaving the room covered in blood, she said.
- deadbolt 10mo ago
  They don't mind maiming children.
  - asveikau 10mo ago
    She died. I think there are also rules against attacking combatants in civilian contexts, like their homes.
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]

nalnq 10mo ago

[flagged]

oldandboring 10mo ago
[flagged]

impossiblefork 10mo ago

I actually consider the pager attack to be legal. There's obviously criticism of it, but I'm fairly sure you're allowed to do this kind of thing by laws of war. Obviously this creates a huge problem for pretty much everyone though, since we can imagine that our ordinary consumer products from all sorts countries could similarly explode if we ended up at war with the manufacturers.

cramsession 10mo ago
Attacking a civilian population is a war crime.
- impossiblefork 10mo ago
  * * *
  - cramsession 10mo ago
    “Expected” is not enough. These bombs didn’t go off in active war zone. They went off in public in Lebanon, and maimed and killed civilians.
    - impossiblefork 10mo ago
      I found this thesis from some guy doing a master in international operation law at the Swedish defence college, https://fhs.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1974147/FULLTEXT01.pdf https://fhs.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1974147/FULLTEXT... and I interpret his analysis as that it was targeted enough to be legal.
    - dlubarov 10mo ago
      The principle of proportionality is explicitly about expectations, i.e. expected military advantage vs expected collateral damage. You seem to be holding Israel to an impossible standard of guaranteeing zero collateral damage, which IHL does not require because no military is capable of that.

648373628229 10mo ago

[flagged]

myth_drannon 10mo ago

One of the most sucessful integelligence operations ever, absolutely brilliant. And the brilliance in my opinion is that the targeting was not your regular Hizbollah terrorists but only higher ranking members the one who were given the beepers. So basically cutting the head of the snake. I doubt Palantir had any involvement, just trying to get some credit. The operation to attack the supply chain was started long before Palantir had grown and could offer something.

giraffe_lady 10mo ago
The brilliance in the targeting was in doing pagers, which are disproportionately carried by doctors and other medical workers. One of the most effective acts of terrorism in history.
- myth_drannon 10mo ago
  [flagged]
- apical_dendrite 10mo ago
  You seem to be under the impression that they targeted pagers that were distributed through civilian channels. These were pagers that were purchased BY Hezbollah to be used on Hezbollah's private, secure network, not on a public network. These were not pagers used by a hospital for normal healthcare work. Healthcare workers were carrying these pagers because Hezbollah effectively serves as a shadow state in Lebanon. So if a healthcare worker had one of these pagers, it was because they were part of that hierarchy.
  - giraffe_lady 10mo ago
    Again, so what? You aren't off the hook because of the actions of your enemies. It was obvious these would be going off around civilians, in homes and public spaces, including hospitals, and they chose to go through with the attack knowing this. That the civilians who would be around them would have no particular reason to fear or suspect this attack, because the vector was a common daily object. It was an attack on civilians in pursuit of a non-military political goal. Terrorism. I think it was pretty successful on the terms of the people who carried it out but call it what it is.

tradertef 10mo ago

[flagged]

kyboren 10mo ago
[flagged]
- tradertef 10mo ago
  False equivalency.
apical_dendrite 10mo ago
[flagged]
- tradertef 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - hbogert 10mo ago
    It's okay to dislike both parties
    - tradertef 10mo ago
      This is exactly one group wants to do. Be vocal, throw out many lies.. and people will start thinking both sides are (very) bad and there is no reason for them to be involved. This thinking allows Israel to commit genocide, extend its borders, bomb journalist, cut aid, arrest..
  - kyboren 10mo ago
    It's a war, you know. People die. Sometimes in perfectly legal and justified strikes, sometimes in attacks that contravene the laws of war. And given that Hamas uses the civilians under their control as both a sword and a shield, and that Egypt simply refuses their obligation under IHL to allow refugees to flee, collateral damage is an unfortunate inevitability. Lumping together all civilians killed by Israel in the course of war is overly reductive: Some were killed in unlawful intentional acts, some were unfortunate collateral damage of lawful acts, and some were intentional victims of Hamas brutality, sacrificed at the altar of making Israel look bad.

btbuildem 10mo ago

> Palantir ended up having to rent a second-floor building that housed its Tel Aviv office, to accommodate the intelligence analysts who needed tutorials Has anyone here tried using their software? It's salesforce-level fucked. They did a great job spewing lofty concepts, with their ontologies and their kinetic layers, but in the end it all ends up being a giant wormy ERP. There might be one good idea in there (articulating the schemas and transformations in separate layers) but overall it's a perfect vibe match for orwellian bureaucracies.

robertkoss 10mo ago
I think Foundry is insanely impressive tbh. If you set it up correctly, its insanely powerful
- lolive 10mo ago
  I second that. My company is really changing its point of view on data at scale thanks to their tools. [note: SAP announces DataSphere for 2026, and their stack is surprisingly similar :)]
  - robertkoss 10mo ago
    Yeah, but Foundry is so ahead, not seeing DataSphere competing there honestly. The only reason is, you already are on SAP and don't want a second system. Also the engineering / product culture @Palantir is diametrically opposed to what exists at SAP, so I favour Palantir.
_DeadFred_ 10mo ago
An ERP where instead of investing in building up your in-house domain experts, your pay consulting fees to train another company's staff on the knowledge, then pay to access it. Crazy how modern companies want to be McFranchise level of capable. What are you adding as a company if you outsource everything that can make your company a differentiator and your company is just plug and play cogs?

IshKebab 10mo ago

Yeah sure. Seems like a big leap from "they use Palintir's software" to implying that it was somehow important for this attack. Also did they really call it Operation Grim Beeper? Hilarious if true (but I suspect not given how codenames are meant to work).

jazzyjackson 10mo ago
Grim Beeper was coined by Michael Doran of the Hudson Institute, it was not an internal code name

AdmiralAsshat 10mo ago

[flagged]

_DeadFred_ 10mo ago
Ironic that it's already full of flag bombed comments (just from the opposite side of what you are complaining about).
- deleted 10mo ago
  [deleted]
s5300 10mo ago
[dead]
oldandboring 10mo ago
[flagged]

franktankbank 10mo ago

This reads like an ad for the geriatrics in power. They don't even mention what the hell they contributed but did mention that whatever it was was "AI powered" rofl.

_DeadFred_ 10mo ago

This conversation already has comments on one side flagged to invisibility. If you are going to allow these conversations, but only allow one side, then Hacker News is not about discussion but about what?

dang 10mo ago
If there are flagged comments which are not breaking the site guidelines, I'd like links to take a look at. The moderation intention is for comments which break the site guidelines to be flagged, regardless of which side they are or aren't on. It's not possible to reach this state perfectly, of course.
- krautburglar 10mo ago
  Dude, your flag function is abused to no end, and you don't really do anything about it. One of the earliest comments I've made was one on semi-recent X11 history, and got flagged for it, because apparently everything is political now. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45796728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45796728
  - dang 10mo ago
    I agree with you that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45796728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45796728 should not have been flagged, and have fixed that now.
    - krautburglar 10mo ago
      The post isn't the point. The point is that you have people abusing the flag mechanism. Maybe you should start ignoring their flags when they abuse it?
      - philipkglass 10mo ago
        That's already implemented. I overused flagging at one point in my account history and my flags stopped having any effect. I eventually emailed the moderators and pledged to be more judicious with my flagging if they'd give me the power back, and they gave it back.

UltraSane 10mo ago

[flagged]

andrewcamel 10mo ago
Yeah... requires serious mental gymnastics to argue otherwise. Military/terrorist group procures communication devices to coordinate military operations. Explosive is sized to injure the holder, not bystanders - per CCTV videos, eg: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2024/sep/18/cctv-captures-pagers-simultaneously-exploding-across-lebanon-video-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2024/sep/18/cctv-cap... Hard to get more precise/targeted than that! In contrast to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEoK6oihqhs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEoK6oihqhs
- FridayoLeary 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - UltraSane 10mo ago
    What is really annoying is the same people saying this incredibly targeted attack on Hezbollah is a horrible act of terrorism are completely silent on WHY Israel did it, which is because Hezbollah started shooting thousands of missiles at Israel in support of Hamas after the horrific attacks on Oct 7 2023. Just imagine the reaction the US would have if Mexico started shooting thousands of missiles at a US city?
chokominto 10mo ago
Yep

computerex 10mo ago

[flagged]

jameshilliard 10mo ago
[flagged]
- sporkxrocket 10mo ago
  [flagged]
- QuercusMax 10mo ago
  Were the children terrorists too?
  - jameshilliard 10mo ago
    > Were the children terrorists too? They were family members of terrorists, that's how they got a hold of the pagers.
- judah 10mo ago
  The Lebanese Ministry of Health stated that the attack had killed a confirmed 12 civilians, while killing 30 Hezbollah members. 1 civilian death for every 2.5 combatant deaths. For comparison, in World War II, there were an estimated 2 million civilian deaths and 5.3 million combatant deaths. 1 civilian death for every 2.6 combatant deaths. Those are remarkably similar ratios. Take that as you will.
  - jameshilliard 10mo ago
    > The Lebanese Ministry of Health stated that the attack had killed a confirmed 12 civilians, while killing 30 Hezbollah members. Source? AFAIU The Lebanese Ministry of Health stated 12 total were killed in operation grim beeper, this number did not appear to exclude Hezbollah members.[0] They listed 2 children which AFAIU were friends/family members of Hezbollah members. They list four of those killed as healthcare workers but don't appear to identify if those healthcare workers were also Hezbollah members. Keep in mind the attack was more designed to injure rather than kill, with nearly 3000 injured. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2kn10xxldo https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2kn10xxldo

dang 10mo ago

All: before commenting here, please verify that you're feeling something different—quite different—from anger and a desire to fight this war. That is not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for. This site is for curious, thoughtful, respectful, and kind interaction—most of all with those you may disagree with, regardless of how bad they are or you feel they are. If that's not possible, it's ok not to post. We'd rather have a thread with no comments than a thread with aggressive comments, let alone nationalistic or religious flamewar. There is far too much aggression in the thread below, which is is understandable, but please don't add more. It provides a fleeting sensation of relief, but then it just makes everything worse. Note this, from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

knickerbockeroo 10mo ago

[flagged]

richardfeynman 10mo ago
[flagged]
- hearsathought 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - richardfeynman 10mo ago
    Everything you say here is false. 1. Israel's stated goal is to neuter Hamas and return the hostages, not kill civilians. 2. Arabs speak a semitic language; the "semites" in "anti-semite" has always referred to Jews. 3. Jews, including white Ashkenazi European Jews, are levantine in origin. Their lineage traces to Judea. 4. "Antisemitic" means anti-Jew. You are using it to mean anti-Arab, but arabs are not semites 5. You did make all that up!
    - hearsathought 10mo ago
      > 1. Israel's stated goal is to neuter Hamas and return the hostages, not kill civilians. And yet so many dead civilians. It's almost like a genocial terrorist country like israel always lie. Also, I was referring to israel's genocide of the semites in palestine to found "israel" up to present day. You conveniently forgot about it. > 2. Arabs speak a semitic language; the "semites" in "anti-semite" has always referred to Jews. Arabs are ethnic semites who speak a semitic language. "Israelis" are non-semitic europeans pretending to be "jews". Ethnic europeans are not semites and can never be semites because they come from an entire separate branch of the human family tree. > 3. Jews, including white Ashkenazi European Jews, are levantine in origin. Their lineage traces to Judea. No they do not. Maybe a handful. > 4. "Antisemitic" means anti-Jew. No it does not because semite doesn't mean "jew". A semite and a jew are two different things. > You are using it to mean anti-Arab, but arabs are not semites No. I'm using semite to mean semite. Arabs surely are semites. Europeans are not though. > 5. You did make all that up! If arabs are not semites, then what are they? You say arabs are not semites and I'm the liar? I'm making shit up?

pbiggar 10mo ago

[flagged]

kyboren 10mo ago
[flagged]
- hall0ween 10mo ago
  Have ye any citations?
  - kyboren 10mo ago
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-mossad-pager-walkie-talkie-hezbollah-plot-60-minutes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israeli-mossad-pager-walkie-tal... > Gabriel said Mossad had learned that Hezbollah was buying pagers from Gold Apollo, a company in Taiwan. > "When they are buying from us, they have zero clue that they are buying from the Mossad. We make like the 'Truman Show,' everything is controlled by us behind the scene," Gabriel said. "In their experience, everything is normal. Everything was 100% kosher." > To further the plot, Mossad hired the Gold Apollo saleswoman Hezbollah was used to working with, who was unaware she was working with Mossad. According to Gabriel, she offered Hezbollah the first batch of pagers as an upgrade, free of charge. By September 2024, Hezbollah had about 5,000 pagers in their pockets. https://cybernews.com/cyber-war/how-did-israels-mossad-spy-agency-plan-the-hezbollah-pager-cyberattack-heres-what-we-know-so-far/ https://cybernews.com/cyber-war/how-did-israels-mossad-spy-a... > Going analog has been a signature move for terror groups ever since the September 11th attacks as a way to successfully mask communications from Western militaries and government defense agencies. > A source cited by the Wall Street Journal said many of the affected devices were from a new shipment delivered to Hezbollah militants in recent days. > Apparently, the encrypted pagers currently in use by Hezbollah were brand new models and bought in bulk for the members just a few months ago, several sources told Reuters. I'm sure you can find more if you look; there's a lot of articles about it.
  - hersko 10mo ago
    They literally sold the beepers to Hezbollah. This is common knowledge. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-explosives-hezbollahs-taiwan-made-pagers-say-sources-2024-09-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-planted-exp... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-former-mossad-agents-detail-explosive-pagers-hezbollah-terrorists-plot-60-minutes-transcript/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-former-mossad-agents-det... etc...

bitkrieg 10mo ago

[flagged]

jameshilliard 10mo ago
[flagged]
- asadm 10mo ago
  what side is the terrorist here?
- sporkxrocket 10mo ago
  [flagged]

joecool1029 10mo ago

So, what exactly did Palantir provide? I'm staying out of commenting whether or not this was legal/justified and asking strictly what service this was that was sold. Is this like, live location information provided from social media/carriers/etc? Is it AI guessing who might be a target based on collected data? EDIT: I ask because this sort of claim could just be marketing on Panantir's end and the quotes and this post never actually explained what it was other than saying their software was used.

myth_drannon 10mo ago
[flagged]
alephnerd 10mo ago
Most likely as a data lakehouse, but the Palantir angle is most likely overstated - Palantir has a tiny presence in Israel, and has had a history of overstating it's intel and defense credentials (eg. A three letter agency that churned Palantir was named for years after before they stopped calling them out). That said, I have heard some positive feedback about Palantir's data integration capabilities - most other vendors don't provide bespoke professional services to build niche integrations for even low ACV customers.
- missingcolours 10mo ago
  The era of microservices and micro teams gives all "company X uses us" claims a different vibe. Maybe it used to actually mean "this is the thing Facebook uses to power its website on millions of servers" but now it's usually like "the team of 6 that runs the analytics platform for Apple Fitness+ uses this on 5 servers"
- joecool1029 10mo ago
  Thanks for attempting to answer what I was asking about. I have had difficulty finding out more about it, the alleged ex-Palantir commenter said this would be part of their Gotham product, but most of what I could find on that was buzzword data visualization stuff. If their old post history and what you're saying is accurate, then it's really just a database integration tool with a nice interface?

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

orochimaaru 10mo ago

I’ve said this before and cannot be said enough. Palantir is a data platform. I think they optimize for knowledge graphs (ontology). It has several uses. It’s seems to be fashionable to blame Palantir these days. But then wouldn’t you also blame other things - Java and database open source, Python, Linux foundation, etc. for all this. I think people just want to blame without analyzing what else could be blamed to. Really it’s most of the free software community too. Disclaimer: I don’t consider what Israel did unlawful. They were under attack by hezb and Hamas. They were within rights to retaliate. And no, hezb and Hamas don’t care about civilian casualties.

jazzyjackson 10mo ago
Palintir is people, specifically people who are tasked with onboarding customers to use the data platform. They get to choose their users in a way that Java and Linux do not. (I hold no ill will against them, I'd rather Israel win than the other guys)
- orochimaaru 10mo ago
  Yes the foundations can mandate that the tools are forbidden to use in military and intelligence applications. But they won’t. And I’m fine with that. My point is foundations have licensing power while corporations regulate it through sales. Each decision is connected to money. And no one is going to say no to more money.

TriangleEdge 10mo ago

For those curious, you can find videos of what Palantir Gotham is on YouTube. It might help you be more informed before you post here.

joecool1029 10mo ago
So rather than point us at more Palantir marketing and YouTuber conspiracy theories, why not be a little more specific (if you can) and just tell us a bit more about that since you are allegedly an ex-Palantir? EDIT: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42882440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42882440

jseip 10mo ago

"please verify that you're feeling something different—quite different—from anger and a desire to fight this war." Um, why is it inappropriate to be outraged that international humanitarian lwas are actively being violated by Israel, in Gaza?

SpitSalute 10mo ago
I don't think they're saying it's inappropriate. It seems like they're saying this isn't the place to share your outrage.
- TimorousBestie 10mo ago
  Inappropriate and “this isn’t the place” are synonyms.
  - tomhow 10mo ago
    That's not really true. The point is that there's a difference between how you feel about a topic and how you express it. People will have different feelings and different intensities of feelings about a topic like this. That's normal, understandable and valid. As dang has said elsewhere in this thread and in other comparable threads, before you comment about a topic like this, there needs to be some processing or metabolizing of those feelings. HN is a place for learning, not venting or battling. And there is much to learn about these topics by discussing them curiously. I certainly do, and I see others doing that too. That's a significant reason why I think it's important for us to make space for these discussions here. But if the threads are overwhelmed by people expressing extreme emotions, there's less to learn, other than that people on both sides are angry about this issue, which we already knew.
  - SpitSalute 10mo ago
    This might help. Appropriate = your outrage(not shared here) in general. Inappropriate = sharing your outrage here.
dang 10mo ago
It's not inappropriate to be outraged. What's inappropriate is to post comments to Hacker News that vent aggression at other commenters and/or those on the other side of the conflict. Doing that is against both HN's rules and, more importantly, the intended spirit of this community (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). A certain amount of processing or, if you like, metabolization needs to happen between those two steps. As I say in many contexts, you may not owe the other side better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20owe%20community&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). Here's an analogy which may (or not) be helpful. Even in the middle of a war, it sometimes happens that enemies meet and discuss things. Such discussions won't help anything or anyone if they just consist of yelling at each other. p.s. I appreciate your question and apologize that you had to reply here instead of to my comment itself (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46221528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46221528). We have to turn off replies on pinned comments, but I hate giving the impression that we don't want to hear responses or objections.

horaceradish 10mo ago

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jseip 10mo ago

Why is it inappropriate to be outraged that international humanitarian laws are actively being violated by Israel, in Gaza? Can someone help me understand?

ebbi 10mo ago
[flagged]
- hersko 10mo ago
  I can't imagine why Israel was carrying out strikes in Lebanon after October 8th. It's a total mystery.
  - ebbi 10mo ago
    I can't imagine why the attacks on October 7th happened. It's a complete mystery given life started on October 7th.
noitpmeder 10mo ago
Because defending civilians who Israel is targeting is, in today's world, considered antisemitic
demarq 10mo ago
Because in the long book of history, HN wants to look absolutely neutral during this episode. That’s apparently the good look

ThrowawayTestr 10mo ago

[flagged]

jmyeet 10mo ago

There are a few different angles to this. 1. If any other state had done this, we'd be correctly calling this a terrorist attack and there wouldn't be any question about it; and 2. Palantir was a partner in developing several AI systems used for targeting missile strikes in Gaza. Collectively these tend to be called Lavender [1][2]. Another of these systems is called "Where's Daddy". What does it do? It targets alleged militants at home so their families with be collateral damage [3]; and 3. These systems could not exist without the labor of the humans who create them so it raises questions about the ethics of everything we do as software engineers and tech people. This is not a new debate. For example, there were debates about who should be culpable for the German death machine in WW2. Guards at the camp? Absolutely. Civilians at IG Farben who are making Zyklon-B? Do they know what it's being used for? Do they have any choice in the matter? My personal opinion is that anyone continuing to work for Palantir can no longer plead ignorance. You're actively contributing to profiting from killing, starving and torturing civilians. Do with that what you will. In a just world, you'd have to answer for your actions at The Hague or Nuremberg 2.0, ultimately. [1]: https://www.business-humanrights.org/es/%C3%BAltimas-noticias/palantir-allegedly-enables-israels-ai-targeting-amid-israels-war-in-gaza-raising-concerns-over-war-crimes/ https://www.business-humanrights.org/es/%C3%BAltimas-noticia... [2]: https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/ [3]: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-ai-system-wheres-daddy-strikes-hamas-family-homes-2024 https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-ai-system-wheres-dadd...

richardfeynman 10mo ago
* * *
- Cyph0n 10mo ago
  So the indiscriminate mass detonation of explosive devices is not terrorism? Are you aware of how many civilian casualties there were as a result of this attack? Would this be acceptable if Hezbollah did this to Israeli military officers?
  - richardfeynman 10mo ago

Dig1t 10mo ago

[flagged]

hersko 10mo ago
[flagged]
- ebbi 10mo ago
  [flagged]
ebbi 10mo ago
According to many US politicians, it's a thing to celebrate (Fetterman stands out as one, having received a golden pager from an Israeli official). And the mildly veiled threats on social media to people speaking out about Palestine referencing the pager attacks that goes unpunished by social media platforms.

therobots927 10mo ago

HN let this one fall through the cracks I guess. Usually this article would get flagged in under 10 minutes of being up.

nextstep 10mo ago
It was flagged and enough people complained about censorship that is was resurrected with a pinned post from dang about how we should be civil
- therobots927 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - nextstep 10mo ago
    [flagged]
  - dang 10mo ago
    We stopped using the word 'civil' years ago. Commenters here need to follow the rules, and the rules don't go away when the topic is a tough one. On the contrary, they apply more, as https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html makes clear.
    - therobots927 10mo ago
      Happy to follow the rules when free discussion is allowed. Watching this topic get censored aggressively on here during some of the darkest months for Palestinians eroded my respect for your “rules”.
      - dang 10mo ago
        We've specifically protected, carefully moderated, and kept open many threads about this topic, at considerable cost, because each time one of these appears on HN, the mods can kiss the rest of their day goodbye, not to mention look forward to streams of abuse [1]. Forgive me therefore if I dispute your claim of "censored aggressively". To me that feels like not taking yes for an answer. That's understandable, because the people who feel passionately about any topic (call it X) always feel like X is vastly underrepresented, and even "censored aggressively", on HN. We can say things like "frontpage space is the scarcest resource" and "we can't have too much repetition" till the cows come home, but it won't take this feeling away. Even when X is literally the most discussed topic on HN, we get people claiming that X is being censored aggressively—it's not even uncommon [2]. This is a function of how people feel and nothing else. [1] I'm not comparing this to the suffering of the people in the actual situation. That is obvious of course, but since someone will accuse me of doing that if I don't say this, I'm saying this. [2] If you want an example, this one is engraved in my memory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23624916. How someone could turn the most-discussed topic on the entire site into "not any mention" and "censored aggressively" still boggles my mind.

meidanor 10mo ago

[flagged]

peanuty1 10mo ago
The pager bombs injured and maimed many civilians including children.

submeta 10mo ago

[flagged]

stevenalowe 10mo ago

“The tech was used” but how, specifically, in regards to Operation Grim Reaper? The implication is that it was used to select targets but if that it true then does that mean there are still unexploded pagers in use?

breedmesmn 10mo ago
[flagged]

sleepybrett 10mo ago

Palantir is just 'CIA as a service'.

proshno 10mo ago

[dead]

wunderland 10mo ago

The scale of these terrorist attacks seems to be lost by some in the comments here. Here’s a documentary showing the extent, including all of the undeniable civilians that were injured or killed: https://youtu.be/2mqqDTIs4vE https://youtu.be/2mqqDTIs4vE

baskin31 10mo ago
These pagers did not bring down buildings as shown in here. This 'documentary' is all over the place factually with sources from many of the most anti-Israel (not pro-Palestinian) organizations.
- Qiu_Zhanxuan 10mo ago
  [flagged]

moomoo11 10mo ago

[flagged]

peanuty1 10mo ago
The pager bombs injured and maimed many civilians including children.
- moomoo11 10mo ago
  Yes that’s why I said minimal AOE and also why I said in a war (keyword - we live in real world and war is a very real thing whether we like it or not) minimizing harm to innocents is key. The alternative is 10s of thousands of civilians suffering because their leaders drag them into hell with them. We already see how bad that is..
- Seattle3503 10mo ago
  It's a shared property of bombs.
deleted 10mo ago
[deleted]

alexashka 10mo ago

This seems fitting: > Yet what is the result, the gain to humanity, of this wonderfully regulated society which has been built solely to make life richer? Millions are on the verge of starvation, hundreds of thousands are spending their lives in producing instruments for the destruction of human life, and millions again are wasting their existence in a dull tragedy of monotony. In every great industrial centre where wealth is most plentifully produced, there is poverty and want. In the rich town where no production is carried on, there is plenty and enjoyment. He who labours hard or produces wealth is in poverty, he who lives in idleness is rich. When the warehouses are full, there is want and hunger. Those without food are forbidden to produce because the demand is already supplied. [0] I highlighted the part that relates to Palantir and most everyone on here reading HN (except you, of course, you're special :)) Which is to say this is nothing new and discussing the minutia of did this specific company do this specific thing when the system that makes this inevitable remains unaddressed is missing the point. Oh well, politics for 99% of people seems to amount to gossip. Did you hear what X said/did? Oh my god, I can't believe it, etc, etc. [0] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/george-barrett-the-anarchist-revolution https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/george-barrett-the-a...

underdeserver 10mo ago

I am in awe of the opinions in this thread. Really. If Israel, unprovoked, randomly carried out this attack it would be one thing. But: 1. Hezbollah had been continuously, deliberately firing rockets at civilians since October 8th, 2023 displacing tens of thousands and killing multiple civilians including 12 children in a playground in Majdal Shams. 2. Hezbollah embeds itself and fires from within civilian population in Lebanon 3. Hezbollah leadership had stated that they intend to escalate their attacks including a ground invasion of Israel I think everyone in this thread criticizing this operation needs to first explain what they would have Israel do in this situation. Because if you think Israel should retaliate against Hezbollah at all, please explain how you, in Israel's shoes, would achieve a comparable result with fewer civilian casualties.

sreejithr 10mo ago
[flagged]
sporkxrocket 10mo ago
Hezbollah stated repeatedly that they would stop attacking Israel if Israel stopped committing genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza. I know I certainly support them.
- underdeserver 10mo ago
  > "our struggle will end only when this entity [Israel] is obliterated". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
  - sporkxrocket 10mo ago
    Yeah, I agree with them there. That’s just being anti-Zionist, which is a position held by most the world. That’s the equivalent of saying “our struggle will end when Nazi Germany is obliterated”.
tkel 10mo ago
If I were Israel, I would have not invaded Gaza, which would have resulted in far fewer civilian casualties, and also would have ended the strikes by Hezbollah. Also, if you look at the data on attacks by Israel against Lebanon, they are disproportionate, Israel launching 10x more airstrikes, even going so far as to level entire city blocks of apartment buildings in Beirut. I remember just on the first day of attacks by Israel against Lebanon, over 1000 civilians were killed. Also Israel refuses to vacate southern Lebanon after a ceasefire agreement, and continues to violate the ceasefire. Just in the last 24h, Israel has bombarded 4 different locations in Central Lebanon with airstrikes. If I were Israel, I would simply stop acting as a fanatic aggressor with no regard for human life.

hereme888 10mo ago

I thought this was old news. I remember commenting on this almost a year ago? Anyways, it's war against a known terrorist group.

rasz 10mo ago

Isnt this just a very effective ad for Palantir? Anyone considering Palantir is of the opinion Pager operation was super successful.

justin66 10mo ago

Interestingly just nine days ago someone here shared a link to the US's Law of War manual for military personnel. It's pretty good for what it is. Since countries base this stuff on the same international treaties they've all signed, it's a guide to Israel's conduct during war (or just about anyone's) as well as the US's. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46147605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46147605 https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD-LAW-OF-WAR-MANUAL-JUNE-2015-UPDATED-JULY%202023.PDF https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD... The question of whether what Israel did with the pagers was legal is not really controversial, or rather, it's not unclear what the law is. Find out the exciting answer in 6.12.4.8 Booby-Traps and Other Devices in the Form of Apparently Harmless Portable Objects Specifically Designed to Explode. (spoiler alert: of course what they did is illegal) In case you were wondering what the big deal was the other day about the US bombing shipwrecked "narco terrorists" there's 7.3 RESPECT AND PROTECTION OF THE WOUNDED, SICK, AND SHIPWRECKED.

tptacek 10mo ago
Another really detailed analysis of what happened and the law-of-war implications was posted downthread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46227273 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46227273
UltraSane 10mo ago
[flagged]
- alexander2002 10mo ago
  [flagged]
  - sysguest 10mo ago
    idk isn't pager operation the textbook example of "trying to avoid civilian deaths" while getting your job done? why is it "genocide"? is becoming hezbollah determined at birth? is hezbollah a race? does average civilian use walkie-talkie? even if hezbollah was a race, after its civilian attack on 2023 (beheading babies, raping and killing even foreigners), I wouldn't even care about what those guys get (also, don't say "humanity" like you represent the whole "humanity") if you ARE talking about palestinian civilians, I don't think israel can do anything more gentlemen-ly to them other than pager-operation: the other option is carpet bombing and direct invasion (which is a completely another topic)

johnnienaked 10mo ago

If this happened to us would we invade Iraq again?

jazzyjackson 10mo ago

This substack doesn't support the claim at all it just quotes a book that makes the claim. The headline is basically as informative as the whole article. Trash content only useful for riling people up.

chatmasta 10mo ago
Not even the quoted passage from the book makes the claim in the title. It basically says Palantir had a contract with the IDF during the same time the IDF executed the pager attack. There is zero substantiation of the claim that Palantir assisted with the attack itself. It’s mostly a breathless description of Palantir’s standard operating practice — namely, sending “forward deployed engineers” (consultants) to customers — garnished with some emotional (but clever) wordplay like “Operation Grim Beeper.”

deleted 10mo ago

[deleted]

doka_smoka 10mo ago

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MagicMoonlight 10mo ago

It was one of the greatest acts of deception in history. Absolute genius. Even at our peak we never did anything comparable. It’s like blowing up every single member of the gestapo simultaneously. The resistance could only have dreamed of such a mission.

sporkxrocket 10mo ago
The perception gap between Zionists and everyone else around this is astonishing. Zionists are gleeful and the rest of us are horrified and disgusted. I don’t see how we don’t eventually end in an armed conflict as this difference seems unreconcilable.

3seashells 10mo ago

[dead]

_jzlw 10mo ago

[flagged]