26 ms·

Homeschooling hits record numbers

• moron4hire 11mo ago
  I was homeschooled as a child, from 1st through 12th grade, in a large homeschooling community from the late 1980s through the 1990s. I started college in 2000. I heard all the stories about how homeschooled kids get better standardized test scores and generally enter college with fewer remedial courses, better academic outcomes, etc. I heard all the arguments that "actually, we do socialize, because we can still do Scouts and sports and blah blah blah." It was all horse shit. I do not know a single homeschooling family that did not have an issue with the parents eventually slacking off on checking up that the kids were doing the work. And, unsurprisingly, the vast majority of the kids just skipped doing any work for most of the year. There would be a mad scramble at the end of the year to concoct a fraudulent portfolio to present to the state-required evaluator. And when the dust settled and all the spankings were done and all the tears were dried, new promises were made to not do it next year. New threats were made that you could "get up at 6am and get on that bus." It took me until my 40s to realize it wasn't my fault. The people who were the responsible party--i.e. my parents--stopped acting responsibly. The person who is so incapable of being responsible that the state won't even let them drink, drive, or vote (all activities infinitely easier than trying to teach yourself)--i.e. my self--was the one who had all the blame lumped on him. This wasn't a unique experience. I think maybe 1 kid out of the 30 I knew did not have this experience at least once in their homeschooling life. That one kid was perhaps the smartest, most mature of us; or perhaps she just feared her parents the most. She's also dead now, having killed herself in her early 30s. For me, it was 4 times. It was incredibly traumatizing. I lived the first 20 years of my adult life believing I was fundamentally a dishonest and untrustworthy person, and therefore unworthy of anything, especially love and career success. What I was was an irresponsible kid, aka "a kid", who had practically no supervision. Every parent always said publicly they were doing it for academic reasons. In private, amongst themselves, the true reasons came out: sequestration away from "unauthorized" religious, political, and social ideas. And it always, always leaned right. We couldn't go to school because they were Teaching Evolution As If It's Fact When It's Just A Theory At That School. We couldn't go to school because Ever Since The Immigrants Started Moving Here To Take All The Apple Picking Jobs The Crime Has Been Through The Roof At That School (what the local family practice doctor cared about apple picking jobs, I could never figure out as a child). We couldn't go to school because They're Teaching Homosexuality Is Not An Abomination At That School. Meanwhile, every single child I grew up with had to face a cliff moment where they had to decide if our collective experience was abusive. The few of us who said yes managed to get through college without dropping out, get moved away from home, get through rounds of suicidal ideation, self-medicating, therapy, antidepressants, and maybe eventually coming to terms and having happy productive lives. Or they said no, it was fine, and they now live in poverty, have broken homes, still-active alcoholism, or are dead from suicide. My own mother might be developing dementia and doesn't seem to recall at all things my sister and I agree we remember clearly. Things I've heard my friends repeat in their own stories. Things they've said their own parents also deny. I grew up incredibly lonely. My parents not only sequestered my sister and I from our municipal community, but also to some extent from our homeschooling community, because the one silver lining about my own particular experience was that my parents were not religious zealots. I grew up in constant fear of the State taking me away from my parents just because my mother took me to the grocery store during school hours (a thing my mother asserted could happen, so I better behave to not draw attention to us). I grew up believing society was going to collapse at any time. I grew up believing I was certainly going to Hell because, even though my parents claimed to be religious, we didn't go to church. To this day, despite the intellectual knowledge that I'm really no different than anyone else, I still cannot shake the feeling that I'm always the outsider looking in, always the interloper trying to masquerade inside, and decode the secret workings of, the social groups I'm in. This is incredibly difficult for me to talk about. There are many things I still cannot talk about, so please resist the online commentator urge to infer things about my current relationships. I see people today talking about "we're thinking of homeschooling our children." Not just online, but in my own community, too. I want to scream at them that they have no idea what a gigantic mistake they are entering into. Even assuming they can avoid the dishonest reasoning for why they are doing it, even assuming they will perfectly execute an educational plan for their children over the course of 12 years, they are at the vet least forcing an outsider's complex on their children. Yes, parents who send their children to public school could still be abusive. Yes, children who do go to public school also develop outsider complexes and plenty of other mental health issues. But at least the child will have a better chance to see that there are alternatives. At least the child will have a better chance to learn that they are a member of a shared society. At least the child will have a better chance to become independent from their parents.
  • seec 11mo ago
    I very much disagree with your point of view. If you have authoritarian parents with narrow world views, being exposed to other ways of thinking/living in school will only raise your expectations and create resentment against the parents which will generally make things worse for you. And if you are a slacker (and the parents lets you slack) being in class isn't that useful. If you are smart enough you'll get by, doing nothing. But the moment you'll be required to actually put some effort the lack of work will show up and by then it will be too late. On the other hand you could get an early warning if you avoid the hard stuff being homeschooled and it's generally more effective when you figure out stuff yourself, not being spoon fed in a lecture. And by being at home, time can at least be used for self-guided exploration that are likely to be more useful than whatever they decided to teach in the current era at school (outside of language/math/science later on it's all thinly disguised propaganda anyway). If you are focused on the same things as everyone else at the same time you are not actually building strength around your interests/characters, the only purpose is to make you fit a basic template so you can be "useful" in the labor market. The idea of public school is to make a tool out of you, before anything else. What you are complaining about is having shitty parents, which is a problem with bad outcomes, regardless if you go to public school or not. And even if you are successful at public school, there is little chance those parents will pay for later studies, so you are mostly setting yourself up for disappointment. You might as well learn to figure out stuff on you own, because you'll need that skill more than anything else when it will be time to leave your shitty parents. I understand the frustration that comes from the feeling of having "missed something" but I can assure you that unless you were leaving in a very good school district (aka rich, which doesn't seem the case) you really didn't miss anything. Most of the real learning is done outside of school, inside school is mostly endoctrinement.
    • moron4hire 11mo ago
      Everything you've said regarding self-directed study is completely possible for children attending p the institutional education system. Nothing is stopping parents from supplementally teaching their children. Any effort a parent is willing to put into teaching their own children is effort that can be exerted regardless of participation in institutional education. If you choose to homeschool your children, you are discarding that floor. The only reason people choose to discard that floor is because they see that floor as actively harmful. We do not need to labor under any pretention that their evaluation of that harm is correct. You do your children no favors teaching them they exist outside of the greater social dynamic. You teach them that the society in which they live, which they cannot escape and they must deal with for the majority of their lives without their parents, is not good enough for them. That might be fine for the rich and famous who have a completely different society they can count on to provide opportunity and support for their children, but it doesn't work for the rest of us who have to scrape a living together on our own ability to communicate our value. You speak of indoctrination. Homeschooling is nothing but indoctrination to the parents ideology. If your ideology is so great, you shouldn't need to sequester your children away from society to convince them it is right. Children are born without prejudice. If they are receiving bad information in public school, it is trivial to teach them otherwise because children inherently trust their parents. Even children who grow up in the most abusive of homes have a hard time coming to terms with the abuse and discarding what their parents did to them. Homeschooling exploits that inherent trust to swing the indoctrination pendulum in the opposite direction. You say that my experience was due to having abusive parents. Yes. Yes, that is absolutely correct. It takes abusive parents to choose to homeschool their children. By choosing to homeschool your children, you prove yourself an arrogant, self-centered person. Everything that follows thereafter is an extension of that.
• Scottn1 11mo ago
  Homeschooling is becoming an epidemic and a major reason is --- SPORTS. From my experience, it is growing for all the wrong reasons and I have not come across ONE family doing it properly and in a matter I would consider better for the kid. I have a 15yo son who plays sports and for the past 5 years, homeschooling has been a way to "red-shirt" kids - hold them back a year or two then re-entering them into public schools into grades behind their age. Literally purposely holding back their kids so they can be older as freshman. A major problem with boys because of puberty, size etc around this age. The difference between a 14yo and a 16yo, or 16/18yo can be quite large at times. My son had a freshman on his team last year that could drive and had a mustache playing vs these tiny incoming freshman, it was so comical. He was 16 1/2 as a freshman. And the parents were on the sideline acting like their kid was the next coming of Aaron Judge. It REALLY hurts the rest of us playing the rules and taking education seriously when our kids are trying to make a team. I've known several of these parents and they all are the same. They haphazardly put them into the bare min online courses, still go to work all day and stick them in front of computers to expect them to self teach for a few years. The moms would be stay-home types that didn't seem much educated themselves. The kids are spoiled entitled types who think they are top athletes already and would jokingly be calling my son at 11a telling him they are done already for the day and headed to the gym and playing Fortnite. Now this is just MY circle, I am not saying there aren't very serious and capable parents out there really homeschooling and giving their kids a better education than public school, but I haven't met any in maybe roughly 10 I know. Most of them seemed to also be MAGA types poo-pooing public education and how they are brainwashing kids. It is really despicable that this is most likely happening ALL across America. Education and manipulation aside, I would also think this isn't good the kids mental and social health as well. They already are on devices doom-scrolling enough nowadays, do we really want them hermits too now? I applaud anyone putting in huge effort to home school a kid properly and with true care and teaching. But the image of them at a desk being taught by a real smart/educated parent following a true curriculum all day and on a schedule I imagine is ultra rare. And we are going to pay a price for this in the long run. Or not, GPT will just help them along to properly write that email for them when they are adults in a corporate world.
  • mikece 11mo ago
    I thought you were going to go in a different direction with that: recruiting. In States where home schoolers can play on public school sports teams there are cases where the family gets an apartment and one parent and the kid establishes residency for the purpose of being in a particular school district. A notable case in recent-ish history was someone called Tim Tebow in Jacksonville, FLA. It's not a common thing though, far less of a complaint-magnet than the Catholic schools who "recruit" players from all over a city or even region to come be a starter on their football/basketball team...
• cc-d 11mo ago
  Fantastic. LLM's have revolutionized the way people learn and utilize what they have learned. The future is 8 year old material science lads doing chemistry in their step-mother's RV
  • JohnHaugeland 11mo ago
    You might be surprised. The studies say it's a primarily negative impact, especially in math and college attendance. https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/research/the-test-score-myth/ https://responsiblehomeschooling.org/research/the-test-score...
  • deadbolt 11mo ago
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    • cindyllm 11mo ago
      [dead]
    • nvahalik 11mo ago
      I've had to re-learn math skills long forgotten to help my kids with their school work. It's been an interesting experience. The expectations for home schooling are different and are, in some ways, aimed more towards reality. My son finishes the bulk of his work in an hour most days and then has time for 2 instruments, learning C++, Rust, and Python, community/church participation and more.
      • johnneville 11mo ago
        is "time for 2 instruments, learning C++, Rust, and Python" not schooling ?
        • nvahalik 11mo ago
          He's still learning. Driven by what he loves. And this is on top of the "standard" stuff.
• jmathai 11mo ago
  I do think Covid forced people to ask questions they hadn’t before. We have sent our kids to private, poor quality and top rated schools. We saw a stark difference between the poor quality and higher cost options. No surprise. But the reason we are considering home schooling our younger kids was surprising. It says something about a system dedicated to teaching children when parents think they can do as well or better. That’s just education. The social situation in schools is ludicrous. Phones, social media, etc. what a terrible environment we adults have created for kids to learn both educationally and socially. Home schooling has answers for ALL of that.
  • aidenn0 11mo ago
    > But the reason we are considering home schooling our younger kids was surprising. It says something about a system dedicated to teaching children when parents think they can do as well or better. What's the reason?
    • jmathai 11mo ago
      I think we could teach them as well as the school does. And more importantly, we can provide a better environment for them to mature socially.
      • Aboutplants 11mo ago
        “And more importantly, we can provide a better environment for them to mature socially.” Take it from someone who was homeschooled from pre-k through high school, you will absolutely not provide a better social environment. I was so unprepared to handle the social dynamics in casual, educational or professional that it took years and years of active work to put myself in a position where it wasn’t an absolute detriment to my success. I have no doubt you can educate your children well, it’s every other aspect of humanity that is typically missed out on and can lead to unintended consequences.
        • Freedom2 11mo ago
• csense 11mo ago
  Anecdotally, two factors at work here: - Schools have stopped educating in favor of test metrics, making sure the worst students pass, and pushing borderline indoctrination of controversial, left-ish values. - With remote education during the pandemic, people have more visibility into their school's day-to-day teaching. It's hard to fix the US education system by political means. If you have the ability to do so, it's comparatively much easier to pull your kids out and homeschool them.
  • mcphage 11mo ago
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    • jimmygrapes 11mo ago
      I expected this comment coming into the thread. I would just like to point out that there is a huge range of options between those two extremes! If is entirely possible to teach up a child to be curious AND well rounded in the basics (see also concepts of Trivarium and Quadrivium, sorry can't link the references atm).
      • mcphage 11mo ago
        > there is a huge range of options between those two extremes! Which two extremes would those be?
        • echelon_musk 11mo ago
          Presumably the extremes of left and right?
          • jen20 11mo ago
            (Which are, of course, far more similar than people that identify with either extreme would ever admit).
    • binary132 11mo ago
• deepfriedchokes 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  • nvahalik 11mo ago
    All kids are indoctrinated. As parents do you want to have control of that or not? With that attitude you might as well just tell parents that they shouldn't participate in society!
    • bdangubic 11mo ago
      the purpose of education is largely opposite of indocrination (plus few other things). if your kid is being educated is such an environment you should move (or pay for private education).
      • kochikame 11mo ago
        I get where you're coming from but I think your statement is a bit naive. Education systems as we know them today are absolutely about indoctrination in so many ways. Capitalism, love of country, views on family units, beauty and aaesthetics, what has cultural value and what does not etc etc. Not to mention many school systems just straight up having classes on religion, allowing armed forces into schools to recruit and the like. Whether you're worried about left wing or right wing indoctrination, it still holds true. All kids are being indoctrinated every time they go to school same as every time they watch TV.
        • bdangubic 11mo ago
          I pay a lot of money for my 12-year to not be in the system you are describing and am grateful I can provide this for her more than I am grateful for just about anything else
        • xboxnolifes 11mo ago
          Exactly. Which history lessons get taught, which books get assigned as reading, which clubs are available, etc. Even if they are taught to be critical of the assignments they get, if the selection is limited enough, kids will not have the breadth of knowledge to even see the alternatives.
• JSR_FDED 11mo ago
  Timmy’s job will be done by AI when he grows up, but at least he’ll have fun a social skills
• ec2y 11mo ago
  Lemme just question how home schooling is at all possible without one parent (statically more likely to be a woman) staying home to supervise the learning. I don’t think we’re talking about remote ranch situations where you either do online school or have to send them to boarding school. So I’m genuinely wondering if there’s a corresponding exit from the workplace or other demographic trends allowing/pushing this boom in home schooling to happen?
  • csa 11mo ago
    > Lemme just question how home schooling is at all possible without one parent (statically more likely to be a woman) staying home to supervise the learning. There are at least two good answers to this: 1. The first is a via a home-schooling collective. With as few as 5 families, one can easily do a once-per-week rotation of home schooling responsibilities. Also note that the formal education part of this can be done fairly comfortably in 4 hours (even down to 2 hours with 1-1 instruction). As such, all that is needed is a 4-day a week job, or a job with a flex schedule who can do work on the weekend. I know one family that does something like this. 2. The second is to have a tutor do the instruction. For folks who are high earners, paying a tutor who can come in for 2-3 hours a day costs about the same as a mid-tier private school. Child care would still need to be covered, but that’s usually cheaper than a tutor. So it’s doable, but either time or money will need to be sacrificed. I don’t think that’s a surprise. That said, below are some things about home schooling that I’ve learned over the years from people who have done it: - When done well, it’s probably close to an ideal education. When done poorly, it can mess up the kid, and many of these kids are very vocal about how bad it can be. Obviously there will be a whole range of outcomes between these extremes. Just be aware that it’s not necessarily a panacea, and it’s not necessarily an ideological cesspit. - There is a ton of support for home schoolers in some communities, especially for socialization and specialization. Many people do not realize this. - That said, some (perhaps many) home school parents are just ideological extremists — extreme beliefs, extreme (sometimes illegal) lifestyles, etc. - A good litmus test of where a home school parent is on the thoughtful-extremist continuum is to ask them why they homeschool their kids. The thoughtful parents can rattle off dozens of learning opportunities that their kids have had that don’t exist or barely exist at normal schools. The less of these types of specifics they talk about, the more likely they are to have ideological reasons that they may or may not openly discuss. - For folks who want a good learning environment for their kid, I strongly recommend a good Montessori school. I emphasize “good”, because some of them stray far from the Montessori ideals. This just requires a small amount of research and some observation. All that said, a good Montessori school almost always sets up a kid to be a solid person and life-long learner. Note that some kids absolutely hate the Montessori style, and you will know this in about a day or two. I will go out on a limb and say most of these kids will need special attention in home school contexts as well (imho). > So I’m genuinely wondering if there’s a corresponding exit from the workplace or other demographic trends allowing/pushing this boom in home schooling to happen? I don’t think so. Most of the people I know who home school are already stay at home parents (mostly mothers, but one dad), or they have plenty of disposable income to throw at the problem via tutors and home school support services. I will also say that some parents absolutely punt on the education part, and they can do their part (often negligently) while doing a full time work-from-home job — think handing out some work sheets and pointing their kid(s) to an online learning environment with very little scaffolding. There are some kids who respond well to this, but most don’t.
• vivzkestrel 11mo ago
  homeschooled kids are literally competing against kids from other countries that are being schooled on calculus, geometry, statistics, algebra with practical chemistry, physics and biology lessons. This is not going to end well 15 yrs down the line
  • stockresearcher 11mo ago
    Lots of colleges offer laboratory science classes for homeschooled children. AOPS wipes the floor with any math education you’d get at a public school. Most US national laboratories have on-site programs for school-aged kids and homeschoolers have equal standing for attending. Anyone who takes it seriously gives up nothing.
  • sbuttgereit 11mo ago
    You think avoiding these things are why people are thinking about homeschooling?! In San Francisco where I live the public school system made the decision to not offer algebra until later for egalitarian reasons. Basically since they couldn't bring up the students that faired poorly in math, they delayed the subject for everybody. Along the same lines, they took the one high school dedicated to the highest achieving students and turned it into a lottery system rather than something earned. Yes, of course you're right, kids will be competing on all those subjects. But the idea that public institutions are somehow the safeguards of fundamental academic achievement is just out of touch. Of course, San Francisco public school's embrace of socialist/egalitarian drive identity politics is just one example of public education failure. Elsewhere in the US in these times, other school districts are being turned effectively into seminaries because the other political side has other doctrinal objectives. In neither case is learning how to think or how the world really works is important.
    • vivzkestrel 11mo ago
      they create the feeling of belonging to something, a group, a social circle. you cannot recreate that at home. you ll see what happens after a decade going along this path. The feelings of being an orderly part of a group and partaking in group stuff cannot be recreated at home
• breakyerself 11mo ago
  [flagged]
  • negzero7 11mo ago
    You might actually be referring to yourself. Homeschoolers are better educated, more likely to get into college, and have better socialization skills than their publicly educated peers. https://nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/#:~:text=recruited%20by%20colleges.-,Social%2C%20Emotional%2C%20and%20Psychological%20Development,-Research%20facts%20on https://nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/#:~:text=r... https://chewv.org/college-preparation/college-admissions/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=Graduation%20rates%20show%20a%20higher%20disparity%20with%2066.7%25%20of%20homeschooled%20students%20graduating%2C%20compared%20to%20a%2057.5%25%20national%20average. https://chewv.org/college-preparation/college-admissions/?ut... https://nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/?utm_source=chatgpt.com#:~:text=The%20home-educated%20typically%20score%2015%20to%2025%20percentile%20points%20above%20public-school%20students%20on%20standardized%20academic%20achievement%20tests%20(Ray%2C%202010%2C%202015%2C%202017%3B%20Ray%20%26%20Hoelzle%2C%202024). https://nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/?utm_sourc...
    • FireBeyond 11mo ago
      ... for the much smaller subset of homeschooled kids who apply to college. NHERI is a homeschool lobbyist org.
• biophysboy 11mo ago
  > When asked if they are satisfied with their children's education, public school parents consistently rank last after parents who choose private schools, homeschooling, and charter schools. Importantly, among all parents of school-age children, homeschooling enjoys a 70 percent favorability rating. This is not surprising: homeschoolers are extremely confident in their own teaching abilities and extremely cynical about the abilities of others. > Closures also gave parents a chance to experience public schools' competence with remote learning, and many were unimpressed. They have also been unhappy with the poor quality and often politicized lessons taught to their children that infuriatingly blend declining learning outcomes with indoctrination. Why would a parent compare a novel learning environment to the pre-covid experience? Why would a parent think that their kid will never encounter political topics if they stay at home - do they use the internet at all?
  • jen20 11mo ago
    > Why would a parent think that their kid will never encounter political topics if they stay at home They probably imagine they'll never encounter political topics from a perspective of which said parents do not approve. And they're probably not wrong to believe that.
    • biophysboy 11mo ago
      Yes, but then their kid will become an adult and feel like they were kept in a snow globe. Even if the parents are right, its a foolish strategy!
      • jen20 11mo ago
        No argument from me there. I’m observing, not advocating ;-)
• spwa4 11mo ago
  Well here is what the result was of public school for my 3 kids: 1 kid: one year behind but doing very well 1 kid: two years behind and not doing so well (in fact can't continue to academia unless things change drastically, in other words, will lose at least 1-2 more years if she does go to academia) 1 kid: two years behind and doing pretty well This is the result of 9-11 years of public schooling. I feel like all 3 have very suboptimal outcomes, including the one doing very well. I must say I am also getting very irritated by the "indoctrination". That was fine, if occasionally crazy, during the COVID years when the indoctrination was pretty progressive. Sometimes batshit insane, but let's say "well intentioned". Pro-climate claims ... that were bullshit, but at least pro-climate and generally positive and pro-humanity. Now one of their teachers is openly racist (in a class with 33% immigrants), and even though most keep it more subtle than him, this is a general trend. So if someone can please suggest what is the suggestion here? Keep working with public school? To be honest, the damage was done by their previous public school where the situation deteriorated to the point I had a fight with the principal, and their current school (since 1.5 years) is actually undoing part of the damage done there. Keep them going to public school and give up?
  • ApolloFortyNine 11mo ago
    I know a teacher who said one of their colleagues adamantly believes the moon landing was faked. >So if someone can please suggest what is the suggestion here? Keep working with public school? To be honest, the damage was done by their previous public school where the situation deteriorated to the point I had a fight with the principal, and their current school (since 1.5 years) is actually undoing part of the damage done there. Look up school ratings in your area and move is by far your best bet if you wish to continue public school. There is also the difficult truth that maybe your kids are the problem, but again school shopping could help with that depending on what programs they have.
    • spwa4 11mo ago
      I've already used some "adult" exams where someone fucked up and forgot to set minimum ages and got my kids through them perfectly fine. The kids are not the problem, or at least, having them pass the normal exams at the normal age for those exams is possible. The schools simply aren't doing it. The issue with that approach is that it's a lot of work, and I would love an alternative. But I don't have an alternative.
• andrewstuart 11mo ago
  Group home schooling in a shared building is becoming a huge new trend in home schooling, far more resource and time efficient and pools the resources of the parents and allows the group to hire someone to do the group homeschooling.
  • dfxm12 11mo ago
    This sounds like a private school (probably with less oversight/regulation). What are the key differences?
    • PKop 11mo ago
      Control over what happens there
  • jay_kyburz 11mo ago
    I really enjoyed teaching my kids during covid, and they got a bug jump ahead compared to the kids who just played video games while the schools were closed. We only did 3-4 hours a day but it was fun, and I could really see the changes. I don't mind the idea of teaching 10 kids, my way, and in and environment I can control. The thought of teaching 35 kids, mired in bureaucracy, is a nightmare.
  • ikrenji 11mo ago
    so like... a school?
    • bentley 11mo ago
      In the same sense that a farmers’ market is like Walmart, sure.
      • MathMonkeyMan 11mo ago
        I like this analogy. At a Walmart I'm more likely to find a good deal, and will encounter people who I wouldn't at home/work/friends, yet I prefer the idea of a farmers' market.
• nxm 11mo ago
  At the end of the day, it's a form of school-choice where parents decide what's best for their kids which I strongly support.
  • cosmicgadget 11mo ago
    Too bad for the kids though. You'd think their welfare would matter more than the parents having control.
  • russdill 11mo ago
    Only parents of privilege are given choice though. Parents who are struggling are not. And then when it comes to vote on fixing classrooms, paying teachers what they are worth, etc, there's a great bulk of people who would rather just not because it doesn't effect them.
  • FireBeyond 11mo ago
    Except many many parents have been shown to not be able to decide what's actually best for their kids, or don't care, or have actually harmful ideas. And maybe those kids aren't their property and society has decided that the rights of the child to their own wellbeing may actually trump "parents decide whats best" when and if those parents are very much not?
• gtirloni 11mo ago
  I don't feel better prepared to teach at home than someone who actually went to college for the various topics covered in high school. How can I know all I need to teach about math, chemistry, english, physics, etc, etc, etc when I already have to learn so much for my own work? I think parents that think they can do a better job are delusional. Maybe the school _environment_ that a child has access isn't great, right? But I don't think that says anything about teachers.
  • rahimnathwani 11mo ago
    In California, a teacher without a chemistry degree can teach high school chemistry after passing the CSET Chemistry subtest. This requires less depth of knowledge than AP Chemistry.
    • jeffbee 11mo ago
      You do not need to know anything about the subject to teach high school subjects. You need to know stuff about teaching.
  • JoeAltmaier 11mo ago
    At school, one teacher lectures to maybe 30 students. If all they did was give individual attention student by student, each would get maybe 10 minutes a day. The first 10 minutes of your home-school day you've beat that statistic. After two or three hours, you're up to a month of class time. Of course they don't do that; they just lecture. Which is something you can get online (Khan Academy). It's all about the homework and tutoring, baby. All you have to do is learn along with your home student, and validate their learning experience. Helps if you catch on quicker, but not even necessary.
  • arevno 11mo ago
    Elementary Education and Pedagogy are "sciences" with an even poorer replication rate than Sociology and Psychology. Nobody educated to teach is actually qualified to do so by virtue of said education. Teaching is largely a personality-driven and experience-acquired skill.
• deleted 11mo ago
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• dkhenry 11mo ago
  When I recently switched jobs, one of my requirements was I had to remain remote, for at least the next few years, so I could remain at home and help with my children's education. I don't think there is enough money in the world to convince me to change back to public education. Aside from the benefits everyone mentions like a much better education, having so much extra time with my children is a priceless gift that I wish we as a society could give everyone. Also its given me the chance to learn things that I missed during my primary and secondary educations. Going through each proof in Euclid's Elements again has been a lot of fun, and its been long enough that I have forgotten most of them, so the thrill of discovery is real for me too. If you can make it work, you should make it work, even if that means moving to a lower CoL area, there are a lot of small towns in the US that have excellent amenities, and are great places to raise a family.
  • kulahan 11mo ago
    How do you make up for the resulting drop in interaction with other kids? I had a boss who did this with his children as well - it seemed as though his solution was to use PE credits to have his kids attend sports with other kids.
    • dkhenry 11mo ago
      My kids are part of a co-op where they meet once a week and in this co-op they share some elements of their curriculum with everyone else, they spend one day going over the weeks assignments along with 8-10 classmates, and then during the week they are at home doing their work. As they have aged their school work now has a lot of collaborative elements, so my oldest is actually meeting with kids from his co-op almost daily to go over group projects and assignments. Additionally they have a lot of extra curricular activities they participate in ( sports, music, church youth group), that also gives them a lot of socialization time with others.
      • kulahan 11mo ago
        Sounds like a wonderful setup. Have the kids ever shown a desire for public school? My brother is homeschooling his kids to start, but the oldest just asked to start going to public, so he sent her.
• deleted 11mo ago
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• lapcat 11mo ago
  > Recent estimates put the total homeschooling population at about 6 percent of students across the United States, compared to about 3 percent pre-pandemic. One thing that concerns me about many pro-homeschooling comments is a kind of tear-down-the-schools attitude, as if schools were hopeless and irredeemable, despite the fact they're still educating 94% of students even at today's elevated homeschooling rate. Of course there are problems with schools, but on the other hand there are countless success stories, or at least countless non-failure stories, and educational outcomes tend to depend crucially on local factors, the location of the school and its socioeconomic environment. I suspect that the vast majority of parents have neither the desire nor the capability to homeschool their kids. I certainly can't imagine my own parents doing it. In a sense, homeschooling is a luxury of the few. The absolute numbers can increase, but I don't think homeschooling can scale to the entire population. So whatever problems may exist in the schools, we have to confront and solve them, not just abandon them and pretend homeschooling is a societal solution. You might claim that hundreds of years ago, everyone was homeschooled, but I don't want to turn back the societal clock hundreds of years. Another concern I have is the religious and/or political motivation of many homeschoolers. If homeschooling were just about educational outcomes for children, then we shouldn't expect homeschoolers to be disproportionately conservative in religious and/or political beliefs, yet my impression is that they are. It's certainly suspicious to me. And though I've had no involvement with K-12 education since I was in school myself, I've had a lot of involvement in higher education, first as an undergrad, then as a PhD student and lecturer. Frankly, the horror stories and conspiracy theories about left-wing indoctrination at universities are ridiculous and not based on fact or experience. So I'm quite skeptical of similar claims about K-12, especially since I saw none of that in my own childhood. (I recall being forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance every day, for all the good that did.) There's a type of person who's set off if you say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" and consider that to be an act of war against them. There are still a lot of parents in the United States who reject biological evolution and would prefer that it not be taught in schools at all, or at least to be taught as "controversial."
  • account1984 11mo ago
    I hear your viewpoint, but parents do have a right to teach their religious beliefs to their children. There is no law or social imperative that children must be taught a secular view point. At the end of the day, there are over 7 billion people in the world, it's okay if some of them believe differently. Honestly, I am more concerned that in the last 20 years we've progressed to the point where secularism has for some become as militantly evangelized as any religion. It has become a belief system of it's own, and I for one fear the coming crusades :) I say live and let live, parents should be free to teach their kids whatever belief system they want without political interference. Much to the dismay of the left (and I say this, being a left leaning moderate... I know, bad word today), kids are not the communities children, they are their parents children, full stop. The shift towards enforced collectivism, away from individualism, is only putting fuel to the fire in this surge in global fascism. At the risk of sounding too kumbaya'ish, we all just need to accept each other and recognize the real enemies to society is a global loss of empathy and the rise of transactionalism. Now that is something I could really get behind, forced empathy courses! :)
• rossdavidh 11mo ago
  My daughter is in college now, but we used a variety of private, part-time, and homeschooling approaches prior to that. One thing is that there are a lot of resources (e.g. independent teachers for subjects you don't know, co-ops for socializing, etc.), and the more people are doing it, the more true that becomes. My parents were both public school teachers, and yet we found ourselves home- and alternative-schooling our daughter. Public schools don't really seem to have a strategy for dealing with the situation, other than complaining about it. If you are offering a free service, that is quite time-intensive, and increasing numbers of people choose to not use it, then there should be more introspection going on. If it's happening in public education, I'm not able to see evidence of it.
  • Izikiel43 11mo ago
    Seattle schools have that issue. After covid a bunch of kids were moved to private schools, and SPS (the organism in charge of school) complained and blamed parents on having money and not wanting to mix with the riff raff and other bs. When they actually asked the parents why their children weren't returning after covid, it was because SPS decided to axe the advance/gifted programs they had for kids, among other educational quality things. The children that never came back were children who would have taken advantage of those programs, and parents decided to go pay to win instead to get those programs back in private schools, as it becomes a compounding advantage in today's competitive world. SPS is still using the stupid hippie approach about children magically learning how to read with pictures and guesses, instead of phonics, and some numbers for reading are worst than Mississippi, which went hard into phonics and overwhelmingly improved their numbers. WA is a clear example that spending a ton of money doesn't improve educational outcomes, you also have to do things that work.
    • ahmeneeroe-v2 11mo ago
      This is exactly right. I had a kid in Seattle schools during this time and this is exactly how I saw it happen and and Seattle schools were a major reason I left Seattle.
      • 11mo ago
• dclaw 11mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Joshua https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Joshua
• kylehotchkiss 11mo ago
  I can't say my public school experience was great, I was bullied and didn't really click with the popular kids, but being around a cross section of actual American kids in my age group (my school district mixed middle class with lower class neighborhoods) helped me shape my worldview and learn to deal with people who didn't look or talk like me. I frequently saw fights, so I learned that you just stay away and watch your mouth around specific people. I learned that the BS American value of "popularity" doesn't translate into successful futures. I worry this move to homeschooling and micromanaging children's social lives just creates bubbles and makes children incapable of interacting with those outside of them.
  • gred 11mo ago
    > I learned that the BS American value of "popularity" doesn't translate into successful futures. Popularity is not an exclusively American concept. Just as public school broadened your horizons, so will traveling (or living) abroad.
    • zdragnar 11mo ago
      Too many CO2 emissions for that to be practical for the billions of people who don't have public transit access to another nation.
      • beeflet 11mo ago
        not if you send em by boat
  • Redster 11mo ago
    The positives you experienced are very possible for a homeschooled student as well, and this seems to be a common boogieman. Other factors seem to play a much larger factor in the things you are (rightfully!) concerned about. As long as the parents have "the will to have nice things" (to refer to Patrick McKenzie's concept), then these are very surmountable problems. Respectfully, A grateful dad who was homeschooled and who will homeschool. P.S. Of course I will do some things differently than my parents, but it was an amazing gift and I had an extremely vibrant and stimulating time, including with peers (and adults!) outside of my parents' network who pushed me, challenged me, thought very differently than me, etc.
• homeonthemtn 11mo ago
  Buddy of mine put it really well: "I got to spend time with my kids when they still wanted to spend time with me. Now as teenagers in no longer cool, but that's ok. I got my time with them and that makes me happy"
• GaryBluto 11mo ago
  Nice to see Reason posted here.
• righthand 11mo ago
  NY state just signed a bill to include ChatGPT in their learning and planning. Previously there were deals to bring in Google hardware for students. Of course people are fleeing public schooling when we’re selling the kids to big tech for laptops and services that require network connection to write a word document, enable cheating, and their data sold for profit without consent.
  • jimmar 11mo ago
    People might be fleeing public schooling because lawmakers are dictating what happens in the classroom. There are lots of good teachers who struggle with the resources given to them and the constraints imposed on them. At home, parents can be flexible. They can let their kids use AI when appropriate or discourage its use. They don't have to wait for legislators to get involved. If there is a great math book, parents can just buy it instead of waiting for some committee to evaluate it.
    • righthand 11mo ago
      > If there is a great math book, parents can just buy it How do you know if the math book is great if there hasn’t been consensus about it. The problem isn’t the committee that will always be there in some form. The problem is the politics the committee is used for. If the committee were to prioritize and offload their specific requirements for review instead of requiring substantial analysis twice then the school system would be just as quick.
• MrMan 11mo ago
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• nifty_beaks 11mo ago
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• dmje 11mo ago
  Obviously there is some serious nuance here - there are of course edge cases and serious reasons for considering home schooling. But as a general principle, encouraging kids further and further out of (group) human contact seems like an obviously terrible idea to me. We're already doing it with (lack of) play spaces, "no ball games", insane screen times (which equates to less "real" face to face time) amongst teens, awkward kids who can't even engage with a stranger under any circumstances - and meanwhile isolation and loneliness is on the increase, fear continues to rise about even letting your kid walk down the street to the shops, etc... School is hard, as are parts of life. It's uncomfortable, it's difficult, it's not always what you want it to be, you get shouted at sometimes and big kids get their way and you don't get asked on the football team. Honestly, and sorry, but - a big part of growing up is learning how to deal with things. If kids don't, and you as a parent don't help them deal with the bumps, you and they will be building unrealistic expectations about how good this life is going to be, and they'll spend all their time sad or "triggered" or afraid, or isolated, or unable to join in. They'll get more scared, more isolated, more depressed. This is not what any parent wants. This - of course and x1000 - need to be done with massive quantities of love and compassion. This isn't some Victorian hellscape I'm advocating here. Real bullying is real. Sometimes adults need to weigh in. Kids will find school hard. But loving your kids is NOT giving them everything they want. It's teaching them how to navigate things that are difficult and awkward and - ultimately - helping them become robust adults.
  • iambateman 11mo ago
    I was homeschooled and my son is homeschooled. I disagree with your premise that homeschooling pushes kids out of group human contact. People who attend public school often assume that kids who attend homeschool literally sit at home all day...which is just not...real?
    • snerbles 11mo ago
      It was the predominant notion when I was a homeschooled kid 30 years ago, and for most of them there is no argument or evidence that will convince them otherwise. State-run education is their orthodoxy, and anything that challenges that is tantamount to heresy.
• hereme888 11mo ago
  The biggest misunderstanding I hear year-over-year is homeschoolers are "not exposed to the real world". Isolation exists for some, but my extensive interaction with homeschoolers is they are immersed in healthy communities, hand-picked by parents to keep away problem children. Who would plant a flower next to a sick or hostile one? Parents of healthy children should give 0 s*ts of societal/political pressure against this concept. Your kids are a bad influence for whatever reason? Not my problem to fix. Homeschoolers are some of the most resilient and well-behaved people I know. Modern academic life is only well suited to a small percent of the population. Those children who are truly happy and excelling in that setting. So much time and resources, to produce what exactly? A piece of paper and fancy picture to stare at? Forced mass education was a good idea for developing societies, but personalized education has been possible for at least a decade now, at a fraction of the cost. And to add insult to injury, there's an increasing torrent of deranged ideologies teachers and professors share with students. Here's a famous song on the topic for those who know how to "chew the meat from the cud": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0&list=RD8xe6nLVXEC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xe6nLVXEC0&list=RD8xe6nLVXE... * It's fascinating to watch the points on my comment go up and down a ton. Very controversial issue. I believe it highlights pressure from social and political structures in society, and/or personal experiences. They vary so much.
  • meheleventyone 11mo ago
    I mean you’re literally explaining how your home schooled kids are separated from the real world.
    • hereme888 11mo ago
      Define "real world".
      • meheleventyone 11mo ago
        The one that exists with problem children and opinions you don’t like. As a parent I get the impulse to remove my children from any potential harm but the real world has sharp edges. They need to be confident in that world not just smothered. And really as the person who used the term it’s really up to you to define what you mean.
• jcpst 11mo ago
  We tried homeschooling a few times. We were honest with ourselves and determined we were not that great at it. Sure, we could improve. But one of the primary factors in where we chose to live was the school district. Fortunately it has worked out well. Of course there’s always something to deal with- you have to advocate for your kids. It’s basically public daycare for a lot of people. Including us. The social aspect is important for us. The idea of having to find other people with kids for activities sounds exhausting. We’re a gang of neuro-spicy introverts. My social circle is comprised of people I’ve been friends with for 25+ years. All from my school days. I dealt with a lot of bullshit at school. But overall a net gain.
• tristor 11mo ago
  As somebody that suffered through public school as a gifted kid, I wish I had been homeschooled. Almost everything positive that happened in my education was because of family, not due to the school. School was hell on earth for me, and I imagine it's the same for most other "neurodivergent" kids who are high IQ. Given what I know from my own kid, there's no surprise to me why more people are opting to home school. For my daughter we kept her in public school because the district we moved to had magnet programs, and that's what she wanted so she could be with her friends from the neighborhood, but not every school district cares about gifted kids and will happily put a child with a 150 IQ trying to read 6-8 grade levels above their peers in the same room with a child with an 80 IQ child who has a violence problem and consider that an acceptable outcome as long as nobody calls the police.
  • programjames 11mo ago
    It is in fact the best outcome, because education is just a ranking game, and it's not like you will end up ranked lower in your school. Also, since the point of education is to help people learn, your calmer presence and pro-learning attitude may rub off on the worst students, and their chance of ending up jobless and in prison will go down!
    • tristor 11mo ago
      It might be the best outcome for society, but it's not the best outcome for the people. I experienced severe violence directed at my person for most of my life and it caused lifelong trauma. I was further punished for defending myself, expected to just allow people to harm me. During school I was beaten many times, had bones broken, was stabbed with a pocket knife, and had numerous other things happen. Unlike the kids from the bad homes who exacted that violence against me, I didn't get my trauma from home I got it from school. I have a 176 IQ, I'm now a highly paid professional who has made significant contributions to both open source software and to the invention of technologies that power the cloud. Obviously things worked out for me regardless of my circumstances. Most of the kids I went to school with are dead, in jail, or homeless drug addicts, so my presence certainly didn't fix that. If forcing me to be with them in school saved just one of them from a life of crime and drugs, was it worth forcing me to experience torture for no reason of my own making for my formative years? I would say no. Society is not more important than the individual, you must balance individual and social values against one another without taking either into preference. I have no problem with spiteful bullies ending up in jail or dead after school, ultimately. It seems just and karmic.
• iambateman 11mo ago
  When a social failure happens at a public school - a child fails a class, drugs are found, a teenager gets pregnant, there’s a fight - most people don't question the public school system itself. But when a social failure happens to a homeschooler, we wonder if the system of _homeschooling_ is broken. In reality, stories of homeschooling failure are probably no more common than stories of failure in public high school, they're simply more attention-grabbing.
  • rootusrootus 11mo ago
    The adults I know who are most against homeschooling today are the ones who were homeschooled themselves. Maybe it's just a pendulum.
    • gallamine 11mo ago
      I was homeschooled. I'm doing the same with my children.
      • mmustapic 11mo ago
        The person who you are replying to is stating a different implication: hates homeschooling -> was homeschooled You are saying: was homeschooled -> likes it and will do the same with his/her kids
    • pyuser583 11mo ago
      The adults I know who are most against public school went to public schools themselves. The adults I know most against college went to college themselves. The adults I know most against private high schools went to private high schools themselves. Being really negative about your own education is an American tradition!
  • brendoelfrendo 11mo ago
    I think this is likely because people (accurately, in my opinion) attribute behavioral problems with kids to the level and quality of involvement of the parents at home, so it would be bizarre to attribute a child getting caught with drugs at school to the public school system itself.
• mikece 11mo ago
  Interesting to see this topic being discussed on HN; I'm curious if any homeschooling parents here have kids who WANT to learn computer programming. I haven't pushed my kids to do any of the things that I loved doing growing up (or what I do now). If any homeschooled kids are getting into programming was it as a result of playing with something like Scratch or did they dive directly into writing Python or JavaScript?
  • lisbbb 11mo ago
    It hurts me so bad to have to say this (as someone who has been a life-long technologist with higher degrees in CS and CE): Pushing kids towards STEM careers is only going to end in disappointment. Medicine, sure, but engineering and programming? I don't think it's ever coming back to what it was here in the states. We took that golden goose out back and chopped its head clean off.
    • mikece 11mo ago
      I am not suggesting pushing in any direction; it was more a realization that one of my kids said they wanted to learn to program I'm not sure what the best first step would be (learning straight C like I did a long time ago probably isn't he best starting point) and I was curious if anyone else had ideas.
• hamdingers 11mo ago
  Unsurprisingly this thread has become a battleground on the merits of homeschooling. Something to keep in mind: "Homeschool" is a useless descriptor. It covers a spectrum from complete educational neglect to world class private tutoring. It includes cohorts almost indistinguishable from school, and cohorts that engage in cultish indoctrination. Any criticism you might have for your idea of homeschool, there exists a type of homeschooling that addresses that criticism, and there will be someone in the replies ready to tell you about it.
• jordanpg 11mo ago
  > Once an alternative way to educate children, homeschooling is now an increasingly popular and mainstream option. TFA does not even begin to grapple with the single most important issue, which is who is actually doing the homeschooling. This is only an option for certain families, with parents with enough bandwidth and knowhow to do this effectively. That excludes many tens of millions of Americans. I think this is really about class, race, and religious segregation. Families can do what they want, of course, but this framing makes it sound like failing schools are the whole problem and I don't think that's the whole story.
• eagsalazar2 11mo ago
  Starve the beast, vilify it for being weak, then kill it.
• 4fterd4rk 11mo ago
  Every normal school kid who interacted with a home school kid will recall what the problem is with homeschooling. I would never want to raise a little weirdo like the weirdo home schoolers I knew.
• totallykvothe 11mo ago
  The most popular argument against homeschooling appears to be "the world sucks, so we should make kids worlds suck so they're prepared for it", which is absolutely an abusive way to think and those who use this argument need to sit and think about what it means, then be ashamed.
  • jimt1234 11mo ago
    Not exactly. More like, "The world can suck major at times, so we should make sure kids are prepared to deal with it when confronted." It's kinda like teaching kids to look both ways when crossing the street. Ideally, drivers are looking out for pedestrians, but if that doesn't happen and a pedestrian isn't prepared for it, well, people can get killed. No one should be ashamed for teaching their kids to exist in a world that isn't always as loving as we all wish it was.
• satvikpendem 11mo ago
  How many are now home schooled for religious reasons? It seems like many are pulling their kids out of public schools, for "woke" reasons rather than for a deep pedagogical pursuit, and I worry these kids aren't actually learning at the level they should be.
• Kuyawa 11mo ago
  I am an advocate of homeschooling but also know the importance of social contact for kids, so always wondering how hard would it be to create local clubs for kids where they learn mainly about economy, liberty and social relations sprinkled with some astronomy, history, biology, math and whatever personal interest of their parents like sports or arts? I'd be happy to pay for a private institution like that
  • incognito124 11mo ago
    I'm pretty sure you just described a public school
    • ryandrake 11mo ago
      I was going to say! Dude just re-invented "school."
• ranbato 11mo ago
  Didn't homeschool here but started a charter school instead. Some of our neighbors did homeschool and I have mixed feelings about it. Some did very well, some not so well; but of course the same can be said of all of the kids in the area no matter which way they went. A few things I'll note: - educational spending has almost zero correlation with outcomes - the number one indicator of educational success is parental involvement - homeschooling and charter schools tend to attract the outliers from both ends. The smart who are underserved where they are and the kids with problems whose parents are involved enough to search for solutions. - the real losers are those whose parents can't or won't get involved and who aren't succeeding on their own In the current educational environment, teachers are often viewed as babysitters whose job is to educate children "correctly" and parents are only there to ensure that "correctly" matches their expectations. In the "good old days" when parents and teachers beat children regularly, at least they were unified in their expectations that children would listen to and obey teachers and not disrupt class. Now it is more common to see underpaid teachers without any support confronted by angry parents when their children misbehave and fail to actually learn.
  • oceansky 11mo ago
    I am really really skeptical of the first bullet point.
    • el_benhameen 11mo ago
      Yeah I think the context matters a lot there. I’m assuming it means “on a state by state basis”, which is true. But within my state, at least, family income, outside spending, and property tax revenues correlate very strongly with outcomes.
      • rootusrootus 11mo ago
        I've seen that too, but to my understanding it is less about the money and more about the parent participation. Wealthy school districts don't have any problem with finding volunteers for all sorts of activities, because one of the parents is frequently a stay-at-home parent.
• pyuser583 11mo ago
  I used to teach high school. The amount of time I spent doing crap work was insane. It was necessary. If you don’t remind students 100 times what the assignments are, they won’t do them. You also have to spend an insane amount of time with the lowest performers, because with enough attention, they can improve dramatically. But this creates tradeoffs. Should I neglect the students doing best? One on one instruction is the best kind. It’s generally reserved for doctoral students. I also tried homeschooling by eldest. It didn’t work. Its insane more parents don’t homeschool.
  • kachapopopow 11mo ago
    well if we just apply the bell curve here, on average children will be pretty average (shocker) so those should be left on their own and discover their own niche while bad performers should get extra attention so they can keep up with the rest and with the gifted (if they actually want to) given the opportunity to explore higher level subjects. so in the end we give attention to gifted and the struggling since there's very little you can do to children who are already decent and are capable of keeping up at most they lack discipline or motivation.
    • pyuser583 11mo ago
      Gifted and average students who aren’t given attention become poor performers quickly. Gifted students especially. Students who learn ahead don’t want to be told: “ok you have the material, so I’ll ignore you for a bit.” They want more. They want their questions answered, even if the questions aren’t part of the lesson plan. Nobody wants to be told “we aren’t studying that today.” You really can’t starve the rest of the class to cater to poor performers.
      • kachapopopow 11mo ago
        teaching independent learning is also a very valuable skill, most average people can do it especially the gifted ones as long as they are given the resources to do so and general skills taught in the first 8 grades since realistically I caught up by 10th grade while being a very poor performer in the first 8 (mostly due to lack of effort and generally being very stupid as a kid). also there is very little excuse now with how advanced AI is getting at being able to explain subjects, it's all coming down to motivation, environment and the ability to use these tools in the first place - children struggle to use computers since we see it as a given, but to someone who didn't grow up with the incremental advancements it can seem very overwhelming.
• whatsupdog 11mo ago
  This is the result of more propaganda and brainwashing than education in schools. We should have left the politics out of the schools, after we got the prayers banned. But I guess some people will stop at nothing.
  • russdill 11mo ago
    When the hell did praying get banned?
    • whatsupdog 11mo ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer_in_the_United_St...
      • russdill 11mo ago
        Yes, it makes it clear that students explicitly have the right to pray in school. That's why I'm confused.
        • wvbdmp 11mo ago
          They were talking about brainwashing, clearly they meant school-organized prayer.
        • squigz 11mo ago
          What's banned is the school cannot require students to pray.
• bgnn 11mo ago
  Asking as an non-US person: Is there mandatory education for children in the US? I guess homeschooling fits well with extreme individualistic American culture, no surprises there.
  • lconnell962 11mo ago
    There are 13 years required (K-12) in the US. The way non-compliance is peanlized varies depending on the state. Education in the US is a complicated subject given the "extreme individualistic American culture" as you say. That will be present in the teachers and school districts, and the lesson plans can/will differ greatly between teachers and school districts for getting students to the general standard.
  • nightshift1 11mo ago
    As a Canadian, all I can say after reading all of this is: WTF? I can't understand why anyone would want to keep their children at home instead of sending them to school, and how the government could fail so badly that so many people want to avoid public schools. We are so similar and yet so different
    • programjames 11mo ago
      The short answer is people stopped caring about metrics measuring learning, and instead how easy they were to game to support their politics, or make them look like a better teacher or superintendent.
    • bgnn 11mo ago
      Yeah Canada is so weird in that sense. It's so North American in infrastructure but more European in culture.
• rimbo789 11mo ago
  This is another item high on the “in the future we will all have been against this” list. Well funded public education is a bedrock of fair equal society (which is why the right attacks it ever since its invention). Public education isn’t perfect but it is far better for individual and society than any alternative (including any religious run schools)
  • MathMonkeyMan 11mo ago
    I agree with you, but I could easily convince myself otherwise with the right context or motivation. > Well funded public education is a bedrock of fair equal society First we have to decide what a fair equal society is, and then decide that this is what we want, and then demonstrate that spending on public education helps to achieve this. People I've spoken to about education who do not see it as I do will disagree with me on all three points. Colin Powell [valued][1] (paywall) his public school education. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20221108214853/https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-american-citizenship-makes-possible-1469574353 https://web.archive.org/web/20221108214853/https://www.wsj.c...
• jedberg 11mo ago
  I went to college with a few homeschooled kids. They were by far the least capable of "normal" social interaction. Some were quite book smart, but they had trouble communicating with others, so they couldn't demonstrate it. Also a fun side effect, they mispronounced a lot of words that they had only ever seen in books but never heard out loud. One of them was self-aware enough to ask us to correct him.
  • rufus_foreman 11mo ago
    >> they mispronounced a lot of words that they had only ever seen in books but never heard out loud I did that as a kid. Still do. I read more than I talk. Nothing wrong with that. The flip side would be people who misspell words or get phrases wrong because they've never seen them in books, they've only heard them out loud. They talk more than they read. Nothing wrong with that. Although both of those might be a clue as to what type of vocations would make someone happy.
    • globular-toast 11mo ago
      I do that too. What am I supposed to do? Nobody said the word "ephemeral" to me as a child. I have since learnt the OED includes pronunciation so I look words up if I remember, but sometimes I don't.
• kachapopopow 11mo ago
  home schooling is a very very priviledged concept to begin with so it's not surprising that there is quite a lot of hate for it. as a former child I think home schooling is better in every way if there is a supporting environment built around it, but I also think public schooling introduces a lot of variety that is not seen in private or home schooling be it for better or worse, although my time in public school was rough and failed me in many ways I still wouldn't have it any other way.
• lazyasciiart 11mo ago
  This topic is such a basket case. “Homeschooling” in the US is a word that has come to mean “not enrolled in an accredited school” and can mean anything from being the Duggars to “my 4yo audits classes at MIT” or “we have an unaccredited private school that is identical to any other private school except for not being subject to laws”. Advocating for homeschooling is simply advocating for absolutely no regulation on schooling, which is fine for the Zuckerbergs and will condemn children like the Duggars.
• parsimo2010 11mo ago
  A lot of people are offering opinions on homeschooling. I'll throw in one anecdote from my past. I played tennis with a kid who was homeschooled through middle school but was sent to high school so he could graduate with a diploma instead of a GED, because this seems to be something that colleges care about. He was awkward for a couple weeks but basically adapted to high school and we quickly forgot he was homeschooled. The only thing that occasionally reminded us he was homeschooled was that he was better prepared for high school academics than we were and got good grades. So for everyone saying that homeschooled kids aren't well adjusted or have bad social skills, I'll offer the counterpoint that they might appear unadjusted at first, but humans can usually adapt to new environments, so homeschooled kids have a pretty good chance at acting "normal" a short time after leaving homeschool. Don't judge someone's awkwardness the first time you meet them, let them adjust a bit and see if they can assimilate.
  • presentation 11mo ago
    My experience though is that every homeschooled kid I met in university over a decade ago was very socially awkward. Not necessarily a problem I guess, they performed fine at academics.
    • bentley 11mo ago
      Did you make a point to interrogate all the non–socially awkward people you met at university to determine if they were homeschooled or not? Yeah, thought not. When I was in university, there were several instances where people who’d known me for weeks or months found out for the first time that I’d been homeschooled, and expressed their surprise. (Surprise that I was “normal,” I guess, and not a social basket case, as the prevailing stereotype of homeschoolers seems to be.) They simply never thought to ask. In fact there were even a couple of friends who surprised me by turning out to be homeschooled—when I should have known better than to assume one’s schooling background. But when society spends your entire childhood hammering you with untrue stereotypes about what you are (I heard well‐meaning “But what about socialization?” countless times growing up), some of it is bound to stick.
• hatthew 11mo ago
  I was homeschooled up until college. I was part of a non-religious (maybe vaguely pagan) homeschooler community. I eased into college by taking a couple courses per semester at my local community college for two years around the end of high school, and also some online AP courses from my local school district. Overall I am happy with my experience. I had an abundance of time to pursue my own interests (e.g. reading, programming), since I only did ~1 hour of dedicated schoolwork per day. Among my peers, I ended up probably in the top 10% academically (close to straight As in college) and bottom 10% socially (I kept my homeschooler friends, but don't feel like I could call any of my college acquaintances "friends"). To this day I struggle with being comfortable and non-awkward around strangers and acquaintances, but I feel like I'm improving. Happy to share more anecdotes if people have questions.
• lisbbb 11mo ago
  I can understand why. When we first moved to our upper midwest state, the district we bought a house in was ranked like #2 in the state overall and has fallen considerably. I have watched with my own two eyes the decline in the past 20 years here. The neighboring district, which was teetering when we first moved here in 2006, fell over completely and remains fallen. That one had a cycle of failed superintendents, all of whom required a buyout to get rid of, which further impoverished that district. Our realtor, who had been a teacher in that district, slyly tried to push us into that one, but we didn't fall for it. Our daughter made it through the more acclaimed district pretty well, our son, however, got tripped up in the decline: We ended up moving our son to yet a third district after 2nd grade. Why? Because the principal he had in his elementary school mishandled an incident where three boys of another ethnicity shoved and kicked my son to the ground. The principal, in her infinite wisdom, made my son apologize to his attackers, I guess because he is white? We didn't press the matter, why bother? The handwriting was on the wall. We put in the work to open enroll him in another district, instead. Those are the options that many more rural communities lack. Our current district is a bit further of a drive and that makes him/us feel like he is not really a part of that community. Nonetheless, it has done well for him and I will just come right out and say it's because it is less diverse and more affluent. It is not without its problems--mainly being far too sports-centric than the district my daughter attended, and generally a bit snobby and "affluenza"-ish, but no overt violence to speak of hardly. One time we were leaving a football game one time and happened upon a family presenting their daughter with a brand new Range Rover, complete with a bow, in the school parking lot. Puke-o-rama! Why would you do that except to show off consumption and appearance of wealth to everyone else? Luckily, not that common, but you get the picture. The good thing is, we had options and exercised them, but I wish we hadn't needed to, because we like our community and wanted to support it and the local families nearer to us. Every choice we made to get something we also had to give up something else. I think that's the same with homeschooling, too--I don't personally think it's a good idea, but it's not up to me how someone else chooses to educate their kids and I understand about only having certain options. My son is doing very well, now in high school, but he can never make a sports team because the competition is beyond ridiculous. Even tennis he got on some low rung team because there were a couple of superstar 7th graders who filled up JV and Varsity slots! It felt like a sort-of "old boy" situation because my son is pretty decent at tennis and beat one of those younger guys every time he played him. Forget football or basketball, you have to be pretty much college material to be on those teams. Hockey, same. My daughter never cared about sports, so we weren't prepared for that battle at all. Getting children through school and into adulthood is not for the faint of heart.
• LucavagoHellman 11mo ago
  [dead]
• krautburglar 11mo ago
  Every time I hear the “What about socialization?” argument from some childless person on SSRIs, I am reminded how dishonest some people are. If they even liked (let alone cared for) children, they would have had their own.
• nphardon 11mo ago
  My guess is that this is related to the conservative attacks on education in the U.S., and it's especially insidious because, again I'm guessing, it's mostly liberal minded people who are buying into home schooling in part due to anti-education right wing propaganda. I live in Santa Cruz county, would not be surprised if we had one of the highest home school rates in the country. It feels like a combination of constant anti-education propaganda and the "snowflake syndrome" where parents think their kids are too special to be treated the same as other students in a classroom.
• NooneAtAll3 11mo ago
  in USA?
• GOD_Over_Djinn 11mo ago
  This is totally unsurprising, given that, in some parts of the country, public schools teach controversial ideas about gender. Also, I see a lot of people arguing that exposure to “bad” kids is a point in favor of public schools, which seems insane to me. Growing up with a friend group of good kids is probably the biggest predictor of what a child’s adult life will look like.
  • orochimaaru 11mo ago
    I have a counter view. I think a parent needs to educate their kids as well. So, while kids may learn about controversial gender topics one needs to be able to have an intelligent discussion on why as a family don’t subscribe to those. Encourage children to have a mind of their own and argue intelligently and hold their ground. It doesn’t come from shying away from public forums. As to the last point - one of the biggest benefits of exposure to “bad” kids is knowing whom to stay away from and making independent decisions on that. Parents are not going to be around to guide children forever. They need to learn to make their own choices. Unless you live in a school district that’s really not that great I would never recommend homeschooling. Cloistering into echo chambers is not healthy.
• gregjor 11mo ago
  Homeschooling comes up fairly often on HN, usually eliciting the same kinds of comments. Commenters repeat the same old tropes, generalize from anecdotes, and project individual experiences onto other people. I raised and homeschooled three children. One of my daughters homeschooled from second grade to the time she started college. My other two children decided to attend public school at various ages, and then mixed that with homeschooling because I didn't force them to attend school. Infants have obvious personality tendencies. Some seem curious and outgoing, others afraid and nervous. Some babies seem happy and comfortable with other people, and some recoil and cry when approached. They don't start as blank slates. The family environment, siblings, peers, and the school environment can exacerbate innate tendencies or push children to change. A shy child may withdraw and develop social anxiety at school, or turn more extroverted and confident. Personality traits change throughout our lives, and that happens faster and often more dramatically in young children. "School," "homeschooling," and "socialization" don't describe specific or uniform experiences, though people use those terms as if they do. Some children have loving and nurturing home environments, some suffer abuse. Some children attend well-funded and staffed schools, others spend their years in a prison-like environment with the emphasis on crowd control. Some teachers have a talent for teaching and subject mastery, they can inspire children to learn. Others seem resentful, incompetent, disengaged, even cruel. General statements about public schools, teachers, and the process of socialization don't mean anything because of huge variations across broad spectrums in multiple dimensions. When asked, teachers will cite parental engagement as the most important determinant of student success. Many, probably most, parents use school (starting with infant daycare) as a place to park their kids while they work, trusting strangers they rarely meet to raise their children. When you watch a classroom of children interact with the teacher and each other you can pick out the kids who have involved parents and those who don't. Of course most parents have no choice for economic reasons. Homeschooled kids tend to come from two-parent middle (I'd say upper middle) class families for that reason -- few families can afford to have one or both parents lose so much work time. Several studies of homeschooled children implicate family socio-economic status and income in the success of the children, already advantaged compared to the majority of public school kids. Parents take a wide range of approaches to raising children, generally with little or no training or preparation. You have a child and suddenly you have complete responsibility for another human being, making decisions on the fly, subjected to conflicting advice and guidance. That other human being has their own personality, will, requirements, and eventually desires and opinions, and you have to discover those and adapt to them because children don't come with labels or documentation. Some parents pay little attention to their kids, often because the parents have too many economic, relationship, or other problems of their own. Some parents treat their kids as extensions of themselves, a chance for a do-over, version 2.0, and will start prepping their child for the future the parent wishes they had regardless of the child's inclinations and desires. Some parents want to control their children, usually in the name of protecting their child from the world. Parents who don't recognize and respect their children as separate individuals can do a lot of damage, both in socialization and in academics, and you see the results with both schooled and homeschooled children. In fifteen years of homeschooling my own children I spent a lot of time with other homeschooling parents. The terms "homeschooling parent" and "homeschooler" refer to such a broad spectrum of motivations and approaches that they doesn't usefully describe anything at all. Some parents want to raise their children in a faith tradition (I met fundamentalist Christian parents, Mormons, Muslims, Jews). Some parents want to raise their children with no faith tradition (secular homeschoolers), but then push their own woo-woo and new-agey beliefs on their kids (opposition to vaccines, mindfulness, astrology, homeopathy, "Indigo children," etc.). Both religious and secular homeschoolers can indoctrinate and control their children, and put their own beliefs, desires, frustrations, and fantasies into their kids' heads. I call that another form of not respecting the child as an individual. The socialization topic comes up so much when talking about homeschooling that I have to say something about it. Whether schooled or homeschooled, children get exposed to adults, other children, and peers their own age. Each child will react and adapt to their specific circumstances according to their personality. Nothing inherently prevents homeschooled kids from enjoying a rich social life, but parents often restrict social activities, and with whom their kids socialize. Nothing inherent about the school environment magically "socializes" kids. Some children thrive in the school environment, others graduate or drop out with emotional trauma. Some schools offer more stable and safe environments than others, largely a function of ZIP Code in the USA. Homeschooling at its best takes parental engagement to the extreme: parents take complete control over, and responsibility for, their child's education both academically and socially. Parents might get good results from the right schools if they engage with the teachers and pick the right school (thus the popularity of private schools). Parents who recognize and respect the individuality of their children, and don't treat them as clones or property, who actively take part in educating their child (whether at home or school), have a good chance at raising a well-adjusted and functional adult. The less the parents engage and take responsibility, the less the parents respect their children as discrete individuals, the more likely they will raise a child with academic failings and maladjusted personalities. Look at the results all around us, the products of public schooling and disengaged parenting. Homeschooled kids may have the same problems, but in my experience that happens less often, especially if you exclude the large number of religious fundamentalist homeschoolers in America. Specifically for the HN crowd (to which I belong)... people who work in the software profession that cannot measure what we call productivity, a profession that cannot agree on "best practices" around even trivial things like indenting, should step back and take a more humble approach to opining and lecturing about parenting, education, and homeschooling. No one knows the right or best way to raise children, or how to "properly" educate them. Instead we have a lot of opinions and traditions and government-imposed rules, some useful and some bullshit. As parents we have to sift through all of that and make decisions on the fly that can dramatically affect our children for the rest of their lives. We can't refactor away a bully, a cruel teacher, neglect, or the effects of expecting an iPad to substitute for attention and care.
• karakoram 11mo ago
  I follow this blog of an entrepreneur based in Malaysia, Asim Qureshi. https://wonderyearsschool.com/ https://wonderyearsschool.com/ https://www.youtube.com/@asim-qureshi/videos https://www.youtube.com/@asim-qureshi/videos He has been documenting his children's homeschooling journey and I have to say the results are beyond amazing. All of the kids were done with "high school" level education before the age of 15. Daughters going to Oxford and Cambridge. They were accepted at 16 I think but the University told them they could not join until they turn 18.
  • skx001 11mo ago
    I follow Asim too! A very interesting case study indeed. The boy learned to code and started working full-time for his startup. What's really great is all the kids seem to be very well rounded and come off as pretty confident on their own. This can be seen in the videos on the YT channel. Finishing "school" several years early is the biggest plus for me. Imagine being done with high school by the age of 14. The possibilities are endless. Learn languages, travel, learn real tangible skills, join various bootcamps. Your kid can have so much "life" experience by the time they turn 18-20.
• twodave 11mo ago
  Anecdotally, our family would not survive without homeschooling. I wouldn’t say we are a common situation, 4 kids who each have different learning challenges. I don’t think public education or their peers in those institutions would have been very merciful to them. I believe that for kids have parents willing to provide it, home education (especially when tailored to the child) is always going to outperform other forms of education. There are trade-offs, and those trade-offs have become easier to deal with in the last 10 years even. Our kids each get the amount of socialization that works for them, have volunteer opportunities and community groups, etc. The main reason it works, though, is that my wife is willing and our finances support her to do it full-time. I know there are plenty of families where both spouses can work while homeschooling, but for our particular needs that would never work out.
  • hirvi74 11mo ago
    > 4 kids who each have different learning challenges. I don’t think public education or their peers in those institutions would have been very merciful to them. You are likely correct, if their experiences were to be anything like mine growing up. It was somewhat traumatic, honestly. I had learning and behavioral issues that I didn't know until I was an adult. As a silver-lining, I suppose I also have to be somewhat thankful for what I learned. I feel somewhat well prepared to navigate the social and occupational issues that arise in workplaces because, despite my challenges, the working world is just as merciless if not worse.
• deadeye 11mo ago
  The problem with public schools is that they are free and required (essentually). That is a bad combination. There is really nothing intrinsically good about the average public school. Many are filled with kids that aren't there to learn. From the attitudes seen in this forum, that seems to be OK, because school is paradoxically about "socializing", while most here report being bullied. As noticed here many home schoolers have religious reasons for their choice. The reason is simple, "Don't send your children to Ceasar and then be upset when they come home as Romans".
  • lanfeust6 11mo ago
    > Many are filled with kids that aren't there to learn. That's on the kid, not contingent on whether school is public. > most here report being bullied. Anecdotes like this are not worth much. What do the stats say? > There is really nothing intrinsically good about the average public school. Schools don't just socialize, though that is also important. Whether they succeed at educating well depends on more than one factor, but policy & curriculum is clearly one. Kids are better prepared in some countries than others, still through public systems. If people want to homeschool, let them. Public school should still be assessed accurately.
    • deadeye 11mo ago
      >That's on the kid, not contingent on whether school is public. Yes and no. The interest of the kid to learn is on the kid/family, for sure. However, the fact that a kid who has no interest in learning is forced to go to public school is a function of how public schools operate. Again, free and required is a bad model. They should either be free and selective or, less ideally, available and costly.
      • squigz 11mo ago
        > Again, free and required is a bad model. They should either be free and selective or, less ideally, available and costly. This is a good way to ensure the most vulnerable members of your society don't get educated. But I suppose that might be a feature to some people.
• gregjor 11mo ago
  Obligatory post of John Taylor Gatto's article The Seven-Lesson Schoolteacher: https://selfdirectededucation.neocities.org/pdf/JTG%20The%20Seven%20Lesson%20Schoolteacher.pdf https://selfdirectededucation.neocities.org/pdf/JTG%20The%20... A former teacher of the year, Gatto became very influential in early homeschooling movements. Parents or potential parents interested in education and schooling might also want to read Maria Montessori, and John Holt's books "How Children Fail" and "How Children Learn." We as a species actually know quite a bit about raising children, socialization, and education. I think we get duped by our surrounding society and government institutions hijacking those goals in service of control, indoctrination, conformity, and maintaining class and power structures. Schools serve just as much, if not more, to prepare children to work as "productive" members of a capitalist culture, to do what they get told, as they do to teach our kids anything or help them learn to get along with other people. Call me an anarchist or Marxist, I don't care.
• elif 11mo ago
  It's not just the indoctrination, declining curriculum, and lowering of classroom standards. American classrooms now come with risk of being shot, pervasive drug influence, cyber-bullying, etc. Like why would I subject my kid to all these arbitrary hurdles
• soufron 11mo ago
  This is so stupid on so many levels, I don't even get silicon valley engineers can envision this stuff for their own kids. Or maybe they don't care. Whatever.
• angelgonzales 11mo ago
  I attended an objectively good public school system in California. There was very little political slant pushed by teachers except a far left slant in my journalism class. Thankfully we had many AP and honors classes which allowed motivated and competent students to thrive. I personally found myself disliking most normal classes because some students seemed unmotivated or incompetent and I didn’t like to be around those types of people. In scouting I met many homeschooled boys who didn’t seem very well socialized but their parents were always affluent, intelligent, mature and stable people who supported their boys. On one occasion a homeschooled kid didn’t want to be so he ran away for a few days and all the parents grilled us for clues as to where he may have gone. He ended up going to public high school with me the last two years and I think he made friends there. Another boy was homeschooled because he never managed to make friends and was quite annoying and quick to anger. He left out scout troop because he failed to adapt to the group and threw a knife at me! In college I met kids who went to ineffective public schools and they were very obviously much less competent than the people in my high school and heavily at a disadvantage. Based on my observations all children raised under homeschool were socially awkward but far more intelligent than the average public school kid. After moving out of state I observed that public schools make a really big difference in outcomes, I found that the people that came out of Portland Public Schools (PPS) were palpably less intelligent and also learned that group exams were sometimes taken! Also there were always needles, homeless camps, public drug use and fires around Portland schools. In these cases I think homeschooling (or groupschooling) would provide better outcomes.
• next_xibalba 11mo ago
  If you break the teacher’s unions, things would become dramatically better. Teachers unions are extremely powerful and poorly aligned with the mission of maximally educating as many children as possible.
• ahmadtbk 11mo ago
  Honestly homeschooling does sound 1000000x better due to social media in schools being cancer for young children.
• none2585 11mo ago
  Homeschool should be illegal, full stop. Enabling a parent, especially one who thinks that home schooling is a good idea, to indoctrinate a future citizen is beyond idiocy.
  • temp123789246 11mo ago
    “Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.”
  • deleted 11mo ago
    [deleted]
• calebm 11mo ago
  I was public schooled Kindergarten, homeschooled 1st-5th, and public schooled 6-12th grade. My wife was 100% homeschooled. I think it was a good mix for me. And in retrospect, I think it was good I was public schooled for at least some of high school, because I'm not sure my math education would have been as good if I was homeschooled during that period (my parents aren't math people). But I am a math person, and we are homeschooling our 2 boys. My 12-year-old is able to understand mathematical concept and scientific topics that many high schoolers are never even exposed to. My wife does a great job with many other subjects as well. And we have many great homeschooling parents who group together to teach things they are specialized in (like construction, art, etc). Our homeschool group also has a lot of social time for the kids to just play together (mostly outside). It's awesome. I think the quality of the education depends on the teachers. And a big part of being a good teacher is caring. Hopefully the parents will care more about their kids than any other teacher would. Additionally, we are in the golden age of homeschooling resources (mostly online). Be very careful what your outsource to others.
  • mdip 11mo ago
    I appreciate you sharing -- specifically because my kids were Home Schooled until High School and attend Public High School, now. I feel the same way about the value of early-years Home School and mainstream High School. Mom and I had agreed that we'd let them pick once they hit High School. That coincided with the end of the COVID lockdowns, so being lonely like everyone else, they picked Public School. Prior to COVID, I'd have put money on them remaining Home Schooled. I did exactly the same things with my kids with regard to advanced math/science topics. Actual "sit down and learn time" was spent 80% on Math/Science and 20% on everything else. And I've found some things benefit being introduced way younger. Things like the theory of relativity are "accepted as fact" more easily when they don't stand in the face of 15-years of observation. It can be understood with cartoons and when the topic is studied -- in depth -- later, they're not having to start from "how, on Earth, does that make any sense?!"
• mdip 11mo ago
  I Homeschooled both of my children from birth to 7th and 9th grade, respectively. The state I live in had, at the time (might still), zero regulation around Home Schooling. I have met hundreds of home schooling families and children (as well as hired one), all wonderful people. A lot of them chose to do so for one or two common reasons (religion and learning disability seem, unscientifically, to be the most common). I'm a bit of a unique case in that "it really should have been an unbelievable mess": this was done, almost entirely, while divorced from Mom. And we were not "amicable" through much of it. It was a decision we had both committed to before the kids were born and stuck with after the divorce. I have two children, not 4+ (maybe that's just my experience, but the first family I talked to about this had 7). I didn't do it for religious reasons, bullying reasons, "I hate teachers or public schools" reasons or because I wanted my children to win a bunch of spelling bees. I did it after researching options and concluding that I could educate my two children better than any other option available to them and I could do so without them spending all day in books. I believed I was taught arithmetic in a manner that made it harder for me to understand Algebra[0], and I didn't feel I was ever encouraged or otherwise directed "to learn skills and subjects on my own." The top two, though, were "I wanted self-learners" and I, my son and my daughter are diagnosed ASD (type 1); Mom probably is, too, but getting a diagnosis as an adult is combinations of difficult/pointless. After the early years (probably 4th grade on, earlier for my youngest), the average Home School day became 45 minutes of book/traditional learning work (often less) from Home School curriculum, usually another 45 minutes of self-directed study and for the most part the rest of the day was for themselves to direct (with restrictions; video games were limited to creative and some other specific titles but our children had far more freedom than most). We did weekday only (with a lot of vacation) and September-April. There was simply no way to make the materials go any longer. They did not take tests (at least, not in the way they're taken at school) until they took their first test in 7th and 9th grade. We, like most Home School parents, started off trying to "replicate school approaches" at home and discovered most of them exist because of schools. My favorite is "grades." If someone asked, "4.0". And they'd assume it's "because I'm Dad" and assume I'm grading lax. I'm not grading at all. We work on the material until it is learned above proficiently. And as a parent Home Schooling, that is the only path to success that doesn't involve misery because if you let them have a mulligan on something, it'll be built upon later and you and they will drown. You need grades in mainstream school, you need "pass/fail" with an "A" being the bar for passing in Home Schools. I didn't admit most of this in the past, especially not the "45 minute" bit. I straight up lied about it to anyone who wasn't a Home School parent. I had family and friends actively discouraging me every single year that I did this. I admit it, now, because they're top students in their mainstream school and have been since day 1. My children, like everyone else's, got lonely after the COVID lockdowns and we'd always told them they can decide what to do when my oldest reaches High School. It was sad, suddenly every kid is home but nobody's allowed to play together and even if they could, all of their peers were spending the whole day trying to replicate a classroom via video-calls. My kids were lonely, bored, and unhappy. The day-time Home School activities (that most people are completely unaware of) had been tried up for two years and didn't seem to be coming back. So we put them in Public Schools and lucked out that Mom was located the #4 district and the #1 High School in that district. It's been four years; my son is a Senior. That first test taking experience landed them in accelerated courses. They started with and have continued to have a 4.0 GPA. They get the homework done at school. They might study for mid-terms and finals. My daughter, last year, I think had half of her classes with every single point earned. They've bested me in every imaginable way (I had a rocking 2.5 GPA in High School). They take school very seriously, but every year they've had a portion of the class that's been review from things we did in Home School. If it seems unbelievable that I'd get these results on so little time, have a conversation with other Home School parents (assuming their children have some external validation to their education, otherwise we all lie). Consider that I have two children, not 20. You can basically read your own child's mind up until they reach their teens (much longer if they spend most of their time around you instead of peers at school). Being able to read your student's mind is an incredibly unfair advantage. It's not even that "you notice more quickly when you're going to slow or they're not understanding" it's that you anticipate it. I knew what parts of math I would have to slow down with for my son, they were different for my daughter (long division was daily fits with tears and all for a few weeks). Most of the time, with learning, there's a lot of burst/buffer/stall cycles and the sending and receiving end take a long time to figure out when one is in a sub-optimal state. We didn't do rigorous lesson plans (that's for keeping a class full of kids on the same page), we let them dictate how fast or slow we moved based on how much or little they struggle. I hesitate to say "Just because we only spent 45 minutes in the books doesn't mean we didn't spend the rest of the day learning in other ways" but if you saw how a day was conducted, you'd conclude we didn't. My kids were enrolled in extra-curricular activities, but probably fewer than most mainstream school kids. They had weekly random activities that would be considered "field trips" in school. We were probably more strict than most parents with some things, because we could be: my kids received their first mobile phones at, I think, 13 and 15. We allowed no more than two hours per day of "watching a video, television show or movie." But (outside of inappropriate content) they were mostly unrestricted with which video games they could play and they played plenty (my daughter can slaughter me in just about everything, but I stopped playing for a decade while they were young). My daughter has taught herself to read music, guitar tabs and play Guitar, Bass, Piano and she sings. I played piano for 15 years and she's learned in a year what it took me five with formal lessons. She's taught herself to paint. My son is mini-me, computers, 3D printers, CNC, programming and any other electronic toy. The reason I didn't do it for, though, turned out to be the reason I'm most thankful that I accepted the minor sacrifice: I wouldn't have had the arrogance to pray for the closeness and kind of relationship I have with my kids, today. I know my parents dreaded going to parent-teacher conferences. Those are my favorite! [0] And, unintentionally favored an approach that ended up becoming Common Core math in my state, which is just loathed by parents ... which is too bad, because it worked very well for my own kids.
• calebm 11mo ago
  It's worth noting the "Two Sigma" problem on this topic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem) - "the educational phenomenon that the average student tutored one-to-one using mastery learning techniques performed two standard deviations better than students educated in a classroom environment".
• jonmagic 11mo ago
  I haven’t read the whole thread but thought I’d share my experience having been homeschooled 12 grades. My parents started homeschooling me because the public schools near where they lived then were supposedly subpar (Miami in the mid 80s, I have no idea if what they believed is true). When they moved to Michigan in 89 they continued homeschooling me and later my younger sister because they’d gotten used to it and a big court case had just been won (or was shortly after we moved) making it officially legal there. I never complained because I did have a good social group through church, the neighborhood, and a strong homeschool group in the area that organized weekly park days, some coop classes with professional teachers, but more than any of that it gave me so much freedom. My mom did a good job teaching me by 4th or 5th grade how to teach myself given course material, the library, and her or my dad when I needed more. She did standardized testing for us every year and I was able to complete 12th grade just before turning 17. They pushed me to use the local community college for math and science by 14 because they didn’t feel equipped with more advanced topics. They got me into summer science camps at the college I ended up attending and getting my undergrad at. Every family I knew in the group were doing it for different reasons and did things differently but shared tips, curriculum, and really their lives with us. It was a very tight knit community despite spanning over 600 square miles. Some probably got stronger educations and more opportunities, for many different reasons, socioeconomic and others. As I remember most were well adjusted and successful as adults. I mentioned freedom above and I’ll end on that. Once I’d been taught how to teach myself the sky was the limit. I had the opportunity to focus 4 hours straight on school work and then to work with my dad at construction sites, swinging a hammer, eventually part of a crew of 4 every afternoon building houses or whatever. That started at age 12. By 14 I wrote my first business plan with a friend, raised $10k from family and private investors, and started my first business (VRcade in Jackson MI, summer of 96). By 16 I had an IT consultancy. I don’t think I’d have had as many opportunities like that if I’d been at the local highschool from 7:30-2:30pm every day. I had friends at the school and a few of them worked service jobs after school but that was pretty rare. So what did I do for my two kids? We chose public (charter) school for them but we got super involved. My wife and I volunteer there a few hours a week, teaching gardening and helping where needed. Neither of us felt we had the patience or skills to be full time educators and Covid proved that out when the kids were home for 6 months. I’m still not sure what magic my mom used to teach me how to teach myself. The important thing is we found our community at the school and amazing teachers, many of whom have been there 1-3 decades. I am trying to instill the values and initiative my parents (both entrepreneurs) empowered me with. We’ve been paying for instruction for our 11yo at a (unofficial) trade school for a few years and now the same school pays them to help with instruction when they have big beginner classes. My youngest is leaning more towards tech like me and is super into games so I’m going to try and stretch my generalist programming skills to empower them in that arena. All this to say I think it’s ok to have many ways to do things and find the way that fits your family. I really appreciate public schools because many wouldn’t have the opportunity for an education otherwise and I try to contribute back to that as much as I can even though it wasn’t my experience. And I support those who have chosen homeschooling and figured out how to make it work. Private schools I’m a little more meh on but I’ll do my best not to judge, lol.
• mostertoaster 11mo ago
  Be curious how they got their numbers. Because I had to fill out intent to homeschool forms for my 4 kids that are over 10, but they’re all at a classical Christian school, but there is one home day a week so it technically is considered homeschool by the state. So if they pull from those types of forms it could be there are a lot of kids who are at schools but look like they’re homeschooling from the numbers.
• burnt-resistor 11mo ago
  Homeschooling makes zero sense unless one or both parents are independently wealthy and already excellent academic communicators and there are firm, minimum subject milestones set by the state that must be achieved and reported on. Instead, it's being widely abused much like the anti-vaxx movement to opt out of society, norms, and replace education and healthcare with religion. And then it begs credulity why they are so many kids dying and losing their immune systems (IA because measles attacks the immune system) from an entirely preventable disease that has a safe and effective vaccine that was previously mandatory for everyone. And then it follow: what good is there in allowing some parents to selectively opt their kids out of society, a fundamental right of passage, and an essential public good to ensure socialization and universal education. Division of labor, specialization of trade for most means sending kids to properly funded, staffed, and sensible curricula public schools so the parents are freed up to earn more and make the family's life better. There are some parents who might be Yale law grads who might not be rich who opt for some homeschooling given the right situation, but these are the outliers and I'm okay with these, while most aren't.
• aiauthoritydev 11mo ago
  For anyone reading this the following context would be helpful: 1. Home schooling does not necessarily (and in most cases) does not mean a kid learning at home with parents. It only means parents have arranged for adequen learning through alternative means. 2. In many cases, multiple parents and their kids come together and take responsibility of their kids education. They may rent spaces, they may hire teachers and so on. 3. In many cases you have to satisfy government penpushers that you are doing a good job of this.
• globular-toast 11mo ago
  I'm the only person in my (large) family to go to university. In fact I went "all the way" and have a PhD. There's no way I could have been home schooled by my parents, they simply don't have a deep enough understanding of things beyond maybe age 10 for me. But, interestingly, it was my dad who taught me HTML, not school, and that's what I've ended up doing as a career. My dad never took HTML, or programming in general, that far, but it certainly set me on my way. In a way this is a return to older times when children would learn the trades of their parents. I think that's great, but I do wonder how kids will acquire the broader education. Knowing how to program is really only a small part of what makes me valuable.
• simgt 11mo ago
  As someone from a country where public school is the norm, private school less so and homeschooling the absolute exception, these threads are always wild to read. It really shows how deeply individualistic and polarized the USA is. Sure, let's make homeschooling the norm, problematic kids will be the only ones who fill the ranks of public schools, gifted kids or the ones from religious zealots will all live in their bubbles, then what? Snow Crash is your destination?
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  • bentley 11mo ago
    > gifted kids or the ones from religious zealots will all live in their bubbles If you’ve read this thread, then you know most homeschoolers dispute that they live in a bubble. > Sure, let's make homeschooling the norm, problematic kids will be the only ones who fill the ranks of public schools I don’t see anyone in this thread advocating that. But I did see several arguing that homeschooling should be illegal. And homeschooling is illegal in countries like Germany, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Part of homeschoolers’ outspokenness against the usual tired stereotypes is because there’s real risk of governments prohibiting home education even in situations when it would be superior to the local public schools.
• harddrivereque 11mo ago
  School was hell on earth for me. Openly racist kids (I'm mixed race wo I was more or less not as strongly affected, but we had one kid of certain heritage that was being harassed on an hourly base, think of south park Cartman multiplied by 10) with teachers never doing anything about it, borderline maniac kids that would attack anyone randomly, teachers not caring. Sure, nowadays it's different, but for me school has leas to me not exploring some of my personality traits and basically being afraid of people and disassociating with society on a way of 'them vs me'. Sure, I'm talking about 20% of "bad" characters, but when 20% does this and the rest kind of pretends it's normal, you get the idea of what "normal" is in the society. But, being honest. I have to admit that having that experience gave me the understanding that what society nowadays "tries to pretend it is" is just hiding it's true face, because only in school people are actually honest and sincere. So in this sense, I understand that going to school to get to know the true face of our society is definitely useful for individuals, but it causes overall harm to society as it contributes to it's separation
• Garlef 11mo ago
  This is not a good article. An example: - The numbers on reported satisfaction are taken at face value. But they are influenced by some biases. -- Survivors Bias contributes to the satisfaction rates of homeschooling; It's hard to get into homeschooling but easy to get out of. As a result, those satisfied keep doing it while those dissatisfied with the public system are less likely to change. etc etc
• etothet 11mo ago
  I went public schools growing up and never imagined homeschooling as an option when I eventually had children of my own, but my kid was not the same in their school after the pandemic. Coupled with how ideologically focused the public schools in my state have become over the last few years, homeschooling them was an easy decision.
• sfink 11mo ago
  Homeschooling, and more generally schooling, and more generally raising kids. They're hot-button topics that bring out the strong opinions and searing anecdotes, and the resulting "discussion" always seems to be depressingly useless. (I won't exempt this comment from that criticism.) I'm just going to say that "homeschooling" is not a single thing and it's useless to pretend it is. In fact, "public school" is not a single thing and it's mostly useless to pretend it is. I went to public school. My kids were a combination of public primary school, home schooling, and local community colleges. That experience gives me... well, very little in terms of predicting or understanding what others' experiences were like. 50-kid public schools (the size I went to) can be great for interacting with a diverse group of people -- like, actually interacting with them, not just attending the same school as them. It's also common for "diverse" in this case to mean "kids from a range of socioeconomic situations who are 95% the same race or religion" -- most small schools draw upon a small rural population that is often pretty homogeneous. (That was my experience.) 500-kid public schools naturally have much more diversity in total, but are totally random in terms of what an individual kid will actually experience. It's common for the kids to rigidly stratify themselves. It doesn't matter if there's a kid of a different color from you in your math class if you're surrounded by people like you and he's surrounded by people like him. Athletics are better at mixing people (by forcing a different stratification!), but it's easy to avoid having to deal with "them" even there if you don't want to. Home schooling varies even more. Yet that whole argument is also pushing a narrative of "good" vs "bad": being forced together with diverse people is good, so environments where that happens are better! But that's not true either, there are tradeoffs. I'll describe it in terms of stereotypes: public school kids get more exposure and experience with a wider range of kids their age. Home schooled kids get more exposure and experience with adults and kids of other ages. (I'm not saying either of these is universally true, but just go with it for now.) Which is better? You can argue that it's critical to survive the social pressure cooker of traditional schooling because you'll have to handle the same situations as an adult. But you can also argue that if you look at what's happening in public schools, those kids may be good at dealing with each other but they're often failing when faced with the real world. They depend on the collective consciousness that comes from being surrounded by similar-aged people physically and electronically, they're helpless when the responsibility is no longer diffused and they are actually the one and only person who can solve a situation, and they have a sense of entitlement that anything hard is unfair. The stereotypical homeschooled kid is vastly more prepared for many life situations. So which environment is "better"? mu
• bentt 11mo ago
  Everyone wants to make generalizations, but all this really means is lots of families find homeschooling to be the best choice. What factors into that can vary wildly.
• FatherOfCurses 11mo ago
  Parental egotism apparently is at record numbers too.