15 ms·

Rivian's TM-B electric bike

252 points by hasheddan 1y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
Well, it certainly has a Rivian price. I suspect I'll be seeing these around here, soon.
ZeroGravitas 1y ago
I walked past a near identical delivery quad to their TM-Q not an hour ago.
sampton 1y ago
The kid carrier looks dangerously top heavy.
ourguile 1y ago
Very interesting, really liking the swappable components in the quad. I'm a big cyclist but have been looking for something new to take around for commuting that isn't a scooter. Great to see more manufacturers getting in on micromobility options.
iotsloppyo 1y ago
Reeks of Juicero. NFS lock and unlock. GPS locator. Capacitance touchscreen controls. Hydraulic disc brakes. Companion helmet with wirelessly connected brake lights, and noise cancelling(?!) speakers. Why do we need to learn the same lessons over and over again?
- karlgkk 1y ago
  What? lol The issue with juicero is that their hardware design was needlessly and insanely over complicated, like magnitudes past anything I’m seeing here - and they DRMd something that didn’t need to be DRMd (juice) For this bike, those are features people regularly want in e-bikes and cost very little to add - the bike already needs a capable cpu for battery management and acceleration curve controlling. These are features that people differentiate these pseudo motorcycles on. “We” have learned the lesson. The helmet is very juicero tho
- interstice 1y ago
  I wouldn’t lump disk brakes in with the rest of those, maybe the hydraulic part is overkill though.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - mortenjorck 1y ago
    The $999 Lectric XP4 has hydraulic disc brakes. While uncommon at that price point, it's not unusual to see them on $1500-2k e-bikes.
    - BoorishBears 1y ago
      My ebike has hydraulic disk brakes and a CVT, e bikes have moved forward from the bike-shaped-object era
      - bluescrn 1y ago
        They've moved on from the 'can maintain/repair it with basic tools' era. Soon they'll be dependent on the cloud and subscription services... (Kind of amazed that wireless derailleurs became a thing. Replacing a simple mechanical device with complex tech requiring two batteries)
      - dreamcompiler 1y ago
        Enviolo CVT? I'm curious about how you like it. I rented a Blue Bike in Boston with a CVT and loved it.
        BoorishBears 1y ago
        I've liked it, not being serviceable is a drawback but it's been issue-free for 3 years now I wish I had the automatic shifting module for SF's hills, but it's a nice to have that probably isn't as useful elsewhere
    - slaw 1y ago
- vel0city 1y ago
  Having hydraulic disc brakes on a bicycle like this isn't something odd. Tons of regular bicycles have them these days. The only kind of weird thing I see here is the idea the pedals aren't actually directly connected to the drive train, they just turn a generator.
  - thrill 1y ago
    That’s going to separate force-applied from force-required while riding - a much more comfortable pedal action.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      That is what gears are for. The only time gears fail is when you want to pedal harder without going faster - charge the battery. Downhill with a tailwind the cautious can reach this situation, but most just go faster. gears with a chain is more energy efficient.
- dsr_ 1y ago
  Hydraulic brakes are great. I have them on two bikes and would certainly buy them again. The bike cost nowhere near $4500 and certainly doesn't have any "smart" integration other than a holder for my phone, which I added myself for $13.
- pchew 1y ago
  There's literally thousands of e-bikes with touch screens and it would be unsafe for a bike of this weight to have anything other than hydraulic disc brakes, which are the standard for just about anything that isn't a road bike these days. Locator also pretty common even on $1,000 ebikes. But yes, other stuff seems to be features for the sake of features.
  - dreamcompiler 1y ago
    E-bikes with properly adjusted mechanical disc brakes are perfectly safe, and mechanical brakes are easy to adjust yourself without the need to take them to a bike shop. It's the discs that are important -- not whether they are mechanical or hydraulic.
    - hnav 1y ago
      conversely hydraulics don't need adjustment
      - dreamcompiler 1y ago
        ...except when they do. If you get a leak or an air bubble for example and have to flush the system, you'll need a trip to the bike shop.
        hnav 1y ago
        If you put miles on your bike and ride hills, you'll spend way more time fiddling with an allen/torx on the inboard pad or the adjustment barrel on the cable as your pads wear. The bleeding procedure for hydraulics is for sure messier, but still very doable in 5 minutes. When you do have air in the system, pumping the lever a bit gives you back some braking function.
  - kulahan 1y ago
    A touchscreen on a primarily-outdoor device makes no sense to me. It's just a single point of failure for fanciness. Transit safety should be taken more seriously, with controls you can operate by feel, rather than vision. It's not important if lots and lots of companies include this single point of failure. Edit: also, don't capacitive screens kinda suck if they get a little wet? like what, you just can't use the screen controls while it's raining without risking unlocking your seat 40,000 times in a half second due to a stray raindrop sitting on the screen? Feels like resistive would explicitly be superior here. You probably don't need huge accuracy for what should ideally be a spacious display anyways.
- dreamcompiler 1y ago
  There's nothing wrong with hydraulic disc brakes on an e-bike, except that hydraulic brakes are hard to maintain yourself without special tools. All e-bikes need disc brakes, period. Any e-bike (or any merely heavy bike) is unsafe without disc brakes. Whether those brakes are mechanical or hydraulic doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that they use discs.
- Jblx2 1y ago
  What does "NFS" stand for in this context? https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NFS https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NFS
  - kelnos 1y ago
    I think they meant NFC (as in Near Field Communication).
  - blacksmith_tb 1y ago
    A typo for NFC seems likely.
  - tekacs 1y ago
    They mean NFC, I think.
  - iotsloppyo 1y ago
    Yup, typo and unable to edit the comment now. NFC, Near Field Communication.
- wolrah 1y ago
  I'm with you on the automatic lock/unlock and full-touch controls, I don't like either of those design choices in cars and I don't want them in a bike either. That said a GPS locator is great on an e-bike. They're high value theft targets, anything that makes them harder to steal, easier to track, or otherwise reduces the appeal of stealing one is a good thing. Hydraulic disc brakes are a great thing even on non-electronic bikes. I won't buy another bike without them. My hardtail mountain bike, gravel bike, and e-cruiser are all hydraulic discs.
- dilyevsky 1y ago
  ah yes hydraulic disk brakes on like 80lbs bike is exactly like juicero
- cols 1y ago
  Hydraulic disc brakes are table stakes for a mountain or gravel bike nowadays. Dual or preferably quad piston calipers on a big rotor make a significant difference when it comes to stopping power.
- vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
  To me this looks like how people who never use a bike imagine a good bike. I am ok with the brakes but the rest just makes the bike more complex and expensive with possible planned obsolescence. I don't want to deal with firmware updates for my bike.
- tim333 1y ago
  I wonder if you can still ride it if they turn their server off? "activates and deactivates when the rider is nearby" sounds iffy like that. I was riding a Forest bike yesterday where the user app and bike both have to connect to Forest's servers and it's kind of a pain.
soco 1y ago
Bear with me I don't know much about bikes but I have this honest question: why does it need a chain, and won't place the engine (or whatever gear box it has) directly on the wheel?
- SirFatty 1y ago
  So it will appear as a bicycle and be allowed on paths in parks (is what I'm guessing).
  - Stedag 1y ago
    It's a backup so that if you do lose power, you can still pedal home. Major pain to pedal an 80 lb fixed gear bike, but This is standard on ebikes and doesn't contribute much weight or cost in itself.
    - jodrellblank 1y ago
      > "It's a backup so that if you do lose power, you can still pedal home." The pedals are not connected to the chain or wheels, it's surely a legal dodge to pretend it's a pedelec not a motorbike.
- STKFLT 1y ago
  The biggest reason is minimizing unsprung mass, the performance of the rear suspension would be much worse with a hub motor.
  - Groxx 1y ago
    does that actually matter much on anything except dirt-bike tracks, or trying to go 40mph on a horrifically bumpy track? minus some comfort advantage, of course. like technically, sure, it's obviously true. but for performance it only really matters when you would get air time with higher mass, and the lower mass stays in contact more. commuter e-biking generally doesn't get anywhere near those speeds or bump-sizes. (trail biking: sure! I 100% believe it's a sizable consideration there)
jlhawn 1y ago
a full suspension e-bike, 500+Wh battery, with a belt drive for $4,500 is honestly a really good deal. There is a shortage of options when it comes to full-suspension bikes that are good for commutes. Compare this to any e-bike with the Bosch e-bike system. The big risk here for consumers if whether they can match the service, support, and reliability that Bosch has. There appears to be a class-2 e-bike option which is something that significantly differentiates it from bikes with the Bosch system.
- givemeethekeys 1y ago
  "Honestly" does not make it a "really good" deal. It's an e-bike. The competition is stiff, better looking, and better priced. If they're lucky, this will appeal to university professors and over achieving parents of unsuspecting kids who want a cool bike but got an expensive dorky one instead.
  - jlhawn 1y ago
    The e-bike market has multiple tiers/segments. This is not priced to compete with brands like Rad Power Bikes, Lectric, or Aventon. It's likely going to compete with brands like Tern, Benno, Gazelle, Trek, etc. edit: ask yourself why the median new car in the US sells for over $50k when you can easily find cars for less than half that price.
    - qwytw 1y ago
      I find it hard to imagine what the overlap between this and e.g. ebikes from Trek, though. Besides the price of course... It's an entirely different product.
    - givemeethekeys 1y ago
      Cars that cost North of 50k is a good example. I wish this bike looked as attractive as its price needs it to be.
- qwytw 1y ago
  I really don't get what the point of the pedals on a thing like this, though. I guess mainly to satisfy some sort of regulations which separate bikes and motorcycle like vehicles? Considering that they aren't even connected to the drivetrain...
1970-01-01 1y ago
Hey Dean Kamen, See how it just becomes a bicycle when it's discharged or broken? This is much, much closer to what we expected from the Segway.
- dghlsakjg 1y ago
  Look again. This is pedal by wire. If it is broken the pedals will just spin because there is no mechanical link between the pedals and the parts that make the vehicle move.
JanSolo 1y ago
Great! Another bunch of micromobility products that nobody asked for. And the price! I can buy 6 very decent Chinese ebikes of various formats for the $4500 this thing will cost. I'm sure it will be more advanced and nicely designed, but it's just way too expensive. Bicycles are a mass-market item. Price is the primary decider. If you want to be successful, you have to be cheaper than the competition. Who is this for?
- nharada 1y ago
  > Price is the primary decider That's not even true for normal bicycles. Serious cyclists can spend massive amounts of cash on their rides. Aside from that, if you're using this as a vehicle you want more than just the cheapest thing out there. Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school.
  - jeffbee 1y ago
    By massive amounts, of course you meant "dramatically less than any car", right? Most serious bicyclists I know, some with wonderful bikes, still spent less on their bikes than the typical American spends getting the air conditioned seats option in their F-150.
  - dghlsakjg 1y ago
    > Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school. True, but this bike is completely non-standard so sort of blows that. There isn't even a direct connection between the pedals and the wheels. If the electrical bits stop responding you don't even have a bike, you have a really awkward velocipede. Every other e-bike that I have ridden or seen is still a bike when there is no power.
jauntywundrkind 1y ago
The battery system here sounds so sweet. Swappable, with a respectable 0.5kWh and then an Extended Range 0.8kWh is excellent. Usb-c chargeable at 240W is divinely sweet. Maybe maybe some day dual USB would be nice (for the ER especially) but this is quite respectable. And by not trying to super fast charge the battery will live longer anyhow. Being removable is another nice win, if not uncommon. I don't know which other batteries provide USB power even without the bike, which again is such a great nice to have: take the bike to a park then bring with an charge some phones or what-not. In the future I really hope we see some battery alliances, making some form factors, and centralizing on usb-c. As would be good common sense. The overlap between a bike battery and standalone Delta or Ecoflow battery power station is huge, and Rivian here seems a little further along than most at hybridizing & generalizing a battery system: obvious win to anyone paying attention! The modularity could be a major win too. I'd love to see a an e-bike maker go down the Ford Bronco path & add a bunch of attachments points and replaceable/modular pieces to the design, and release all the specs for free use! Even if it only is Rivian and some partners doing this here, this is the way, it feels like: > The top frame of the TM-B is modular by design, so the bike can be transformed without tools into a cargo hauler, kid carrier, or cruiser with a bench seat. Cargo haulers easily climb to the 6000$ ranges. And the massive 180NM motor here will not bat an eye! One thing I'd love to see: a stationary bike mode. Bring it inside for the winter & do spin class, charging up the battery. The full series hybrid, no mechanical linkage, doesnt deel super super practical to be honest but it's interesting! A lot of nice basic things that make sense. Like no longer needing special cherging equipment for reasonably good capacity chwrging (albeit most usb-c chargers will only be doing 100w for a while now, but that seems fine).
- hnav 1y ago
  bikes are already highly "modular" in that outside of ebike motor systems you can swap most parts. Bikes like the Rivian in the article would only work if ruggedized and sold to fleets. As a consumer you'd just get something from Specialized at this price point since it won't be worthless in 2 years time.
  - jauntywundrkind 1y ago
dmitrygr 1y ago
Only 28mph max speed, and the firmware might actually be properly protected from this bug being easily fixed. I'll stick to my Chinese scooters run by code-unlocked STM32F103 clones i can easily cure of such idiocy.
dreamcompiler 1y ago
808Wh battery and 100 miles of range. These two numbers track with each other and are roughly believable. OTOH, with a battery this big, a generator powered by the pedals, and regen braking this thing has to be heavy. I'd expect it to weigh at least 80 lbs. More likely 100. The fact that their "specs" say nothing about weight suggests they're embarrassed about the weight.
- jeffbee 1y ago
  Regen braking is how you can tell this was designed by a moron. The energy balance simply does not favor regenerative braking on a bicycle, especially a bicycle that flippantly ignores aerodynamics like this one does. A bicyclist loses roughly all of their energy to air resistance. It's not a truck. There is not substantial potential energy to be recaptured going down hills.
  - big_toast 1y ago
    Not a big cyclist but is that still true for lower speed city riding (typical to flat european cycling prone countries), hillier SF, or mountain biking? It seems obviously true to typical racing or distance scenarios. And i notice the wind even at lower speeds on e-bikes in SF. But between their quad scenario and what I imagine as the urban car replacement scenario it doesn't seem as obvious.
    - jeffbee 1y ago
      Yes, it is true at all speed and under all conditions. The system simply does not have the mass that would give it a great deal of gravitational potential energy, and it reaches a power equilibrium with the air at low speeds. Example: 100kg rider at 15 kph = .24W-h kinetic energy. At this speed there is probably roughly 11N of air and rolling resistance, so the steady state power is about 3W-h per km. If you go 1km between stops, or more, the amount you can expect to gain by regeneration is extremely small. It could perhaps extend your range by 5%, generously.
      - 1y ago
Tiktaalik 1y ago
> Also also unveiled its Alpha Wave helmet.... It also features integrated lights and a four-speaker, wind-shielded internal audio system with two noise-canceling mics. The helmet integrates with the TM-B’s console, where music, calls, and podcasts can be controlled on the bike. In an ideal world these would be great features to have, but in the real world, where so many places have a near complete absence of safe cycling infrastructure and bicycles are casually mixed in with giant trucks it's a bit of a scary notion to reduce your situational awareness with a great sound system and the distraction of doing your morning zoom standup while cycling to work (I've done this before lol, tho most of my commute is in separated bike lanes...). This points to the headwinds to adoption and success of the Also, which is that so many cities are ambivalent and uninterested if not outright ideologically opposed to building safe all ages and abilities bike lanes. That sort of safe infrastructure is critical to the success of a product like this. It's really unfortunate.
- bb88 1y ago
  I've seen a lot of people use noise cancelling ear buds on roads using pedal bikes, so I don't see how this is any different really.
  - jakedata 1y ago
    I just added strips of fake fur to the straps my boring old helmet to diffuse the wind noise the same way a "dead cat" cover on a microphone does. They look a bit like muttonchops which is a bonus as far as I am concerned. I use wraparound bone conduction headphones that don't block my ears. I would be afraid of losing an expensive earbud.
calmbonsai 1y ago
I'm liking aspects of the design, but I'm concerned about weight and overengineering of simple stuff like the seatpost bracket. Also, the "TM-B Reservation Token" smacks of egregious marketeering. Still, this looks like a solid ebike.
cypherpunks01 1y ago
Most visibly interesting part to me is the frame design without a rear triangle (no seatstay) like a motorcycle or dirtbike. Materials must be real strong to withstand all the torque forces without a rear triangle, right? Any other e-bikes like this?
tomekb 1y ago
I ride a class-3 Tern cargo bike with 400Wh battery and this range is very optimistic, especially since this is pedal-by-wire. Also what happens when the battery runs out, because you can just ride without assist on any Bosch e-bike.
- blacksmith_tb 1y ago
  Game over with a dead battery, I would think, though I suppose it's possible that the generator you're pedaling is enough for very slow movement without the battery boost...
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
bb88 1y ago
Despite the complaints in this thread there is already a market for $4k ebikes. And people are buying them. The bike competes with a bunch of e-bikes in that price range, Evelo Omega, Bosch, etc. So they're hardly a first mover. They are optimizing that market.
- hnav 1y ago
  yeah but what's the point? At this price point alibaba monsters are far more powerful and real bicycles far more bicycle-like. These will sell a 10-20k units and fade into obscurity like Van Moofs and other disruptive bicycles before them.
  - bb88 1y ago
    People typically don't buy big ticket goods from a company named "YACCEEZY" like you might see on Amazon or Aliexpress these days. It's worth noting that Hyundai had a similar issue when it entered the US market. It was an uphill battle to market itself to convince people to spend thousands of dollars of money on a no-name car brand.
yodon 1y ago
I have a 750W e-bike (which actually means 750W peak, 500W sustained). There are hills near my house that my bike can not make it up without significant pedal assist. If the motor and power electronics on this e-bike can only handle 750W peak, 500W sustained, as is common and I think is possibly even legislated in parts of the U.S., this bike will not be able to make it up serious hills. With a normal e-bike, your pedaling is additive to the motor. That is not the case with this design.
- derekp7 1y ago
  If the motor is geared it could make a difference. For comparison, most people put out about 100 watts with their legs, but need to downshift to go up hills. This looks like a mid drive unit, which should be capable of varied gearing.
  - bb88 1y ago
    I was looking for where the gearing was and it doesn't appear to be in the wheels. It looks like it's in the hub. I have a bike with an automatic transmission and it handles steep hills just fine. But generally speaking, I would expect the bike at this price point to have an automatic transmission.
- masterj 1y ago
  Given it can output 180Nm I expect this thing can get up whatever hill you point it at
sxzygz 1y ago
This new e-bike news drops just as Cory Ellison arrives at his mom’s in a Rivian. Great job marketing dept!
throw7 1y ago
"Drive by Wire"? This is not even anywhere near a "bike". At least you could argue "e-bikes" could still be pedaled without the battery. It's not that anybody would want to or even could, but an argument could be made.
PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
What I want ... not an E-bike, but an E-version of the BMW C1 Critical features: 1. moderate weather protection 2. vastly improved crash protection 3. top speed above 50mph 4. luggage capacity of a small flatbed trailer I acknowledge the utility of e-bikes for many; for me, I prefer my non-e bike when I want to ride my bike, but would love an e-motorycle as an alternative to 80% of my car trips. https://www.theautopian.com/bmws-first-scooter-had-a-ridiculous-roof-and-promised-car-like-safety-and-train-ticket-like-costs/ https://www.theautopian.com/bmws-first-scooter-had-a-ridicul...
- a_ba 1y ago
  You‘re in luck BMW recently presented their vision CE. https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/experience/stories/urban-mobility/vision-ce.html https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/experience/stories/urban-m...
  - PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
    Sadly, no weather protection and apparently almost zero luggage capacity. But it's a very tiny step in roughly the right direction ...
    - shellfishgene 1y ago
      In the camper image it has a luggage box a sort of roof case.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    oh, those concept shots are hysterical. the one with the pink bike and the woman with 3 dogs kills, but the dj setup is where I said "too far" and closed the tab
    - akazantsev 1y ago
      > the dj setup is where I said "too far" and closed the tab Also, it's AI-generated. Zoom in on the right-most guy in the image. Garbage in, garbage out. Embarrassing garbage quality for an official site.
jakedata 1y ago
$4500 is ten or more of my homebrew 750 watt electric mountain bike originally built in 2004. I just repowered with LiFePO4 after 10 years in storage and the new batteries really pull. It has a front hub motor with a throttle control limited to 20 mph. My commute is 10 miles, 6 on a dedicated bike path. Life is good.
- wigglewoggle 1y ago
  What kind of capacity from your LFP battery? Is it diy built? I did one in the spring 16S with 25Ah cells and it's been amazing since. Only problem is it's a bit too big to fit anywhere I'd like it to. I have to mount it on a rear rack
  - jakedata 1y ago
    I am using 3x 12v 185wh batteries in series. Realistically I can count on around 500wh. They are only 3 lbs each and fit neatly within the frame of the mtb. I don't like having them up on the rear rack, they tend to make the tail of the bike wag a bit compared to low and centered. https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1o0qthk/dynagirl_rides_again_2004_2025/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1o0qthk/dynagirl_ri... I just 3d printed protective covers for them last week when marketing turned their back on the new Bambu printer.
    - wigglewoggle 1y ago
      Nice I have a big commute and in the (Canadian) winter my old 750Wh was sometimes not up to the task. So I went wildly over the top and built a huge cap battery. I never need to worry now
      - jakedata 1y ago
        I don't plan to bike commute in the winter, it is too dark AM and PM. Have you tested your LiFePO4 batteries in low temperatures?
- trvz 1y ago
eecc 1y ago
Christ what an ugly kludge. Just spend a weekend in Amsterdam and check out the Tenways and the Vanmoof roaming the streets for an idea how to do it, if not right, at least decently
proee 1y ago
Wow, cool bike! Said nobody. It's sad to see so much effort being put into a product that is utterly uncool. Maybe start with the design (cool) and then integrate the mechanics. This is how companies design cool cars.
NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
This is a motorcycle. It's a cycle with a motor. I love that the popularity of motorcycling is taking off with better batteries, motors, and control systems! It's motorcycling though :-)
- webdevver 1y ago
  inadequate suspension to be classified as a motorbike imo
  - hnav 1y ago
    In terms of travel it has as much as a normal motorcycle. Which is really absurd for a 24" bike even with those stubby crank arms.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
    Some motorcycles don't even have rear suspension. Canonical ones, in fact. Like hardtail Harleys.
barbazoo 1y ago
Not affiliated but I'm looking into converting my commuter bike with a kit from https://ebikes.ca https://ebikes.ca. Seems to make more sense to turn any of the million bikes out there into an electric one using a reusable kit than buying a single purpose electric bike that will end up on the landfill once the company goes bust because no one wants to push around a bike that heavy.
- oulipo2 1y ago
  Self-plug: you can take a look at our repairable and sustainable battery at https://gouach.com https://gouach.com. If it gets depleted, it's super easy to replace cells, getting you a whole new battery for $50 (price of cells) instead of buying a new $200 - $500 battery
- r0me1 1y ago
  I disagree, I went that route and ended up regretting it. While converting a regular bike to an e-bike does work, a standard commuter bike is designed to carry a person’s weight with the center of gravity in mind. Adding an electric hub motor and a 20 lb lithium battery to a frame with cantilever brakes just feels sketchy. A properly designed e-bike typically comes with four-piston hydraulic brakes, and the placement of the motor and battery is engineered to maintain balance and handling.
legitster 1y ago
So the interesting thing about this is the ... peddle-by-wire drivetrain? So unlike a normal e-bike, when its battery dies it turns into a stationary bike. I love ebikes and generally like what Rivian does, but in a very competitive market it's hard to see the appeal of this.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- hbarka 1y ago
  If I may also peddle my opinion, this e-bike is a fresh innovation and it's easy to see how revolutionary it is. What very competitive market has regen, 180 newton-meter of torque, programmable power curve, shape-shifting? This e-bike is incredible. These days, who lets their iphone battery die?
  - kridsdale1 1y ago
    > a pun Eyyyyyyy
  - rglullis 1y ago
    Why should we care for "revolutionary" when the design that has been working for centuries is cheap, widely understood and universally available?
    - palmotea 1y ago
      > Why should we care for "revolutionary" when the design that has been working for centuries is cheap, widely understood and universally available? Because some designer wants to feel good about themselves, better than all who came before.
      - rglullis 1y ago
        If wankery is what they they are after, maybe they should go design "revolutionary" sex toys.
bix6 1y ago
I wish they’d clean up Class 3. They made the throttles illegal in California.
LoganDark 1y ago
> Due to regulations in some states and jurisdictions, throttle will act as an assist boost in those areas, temporarily increasing your assist multiplier while you hold it down. The bike comes with DRM that automatically tracks which location you're in and applies regulations to the controls? Fucking hell. The only things this seems to have over an electric scooter is larger wheels, a seat, and a cargo rack. It's almost impossible to tell in a time-efficient way though because they really want you to watch their presentation and individually click on each "SEE MORE" button and read each little excerpt one at a time. I'm super annoyed by this website. Even the most premium possible scooter costs almost $1,000 less than this - Apollo Phantom 2.0 Stellar is $3,649 right now, and goes like 50 MPH, has far less DRM, and so on. No cargo space though.
Erikun 1y ago
It has a bit of a “The Homer” feel to it, but maybe the designs grows on you.
- bigwheels 1y ago
  https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/0/05/TheHomer.png https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/0/05/TheHo... (https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer) A classic Simpsons episode!
- geephroh 1y ago
  "Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a nerf ball..."
plantwallshoe 1y ago
My general advice is to never buy a bike from a company that doesn’t have a core business in building non electric bicycles.
- rtkwe 1y ago
  At least not their first generation.
browningstreet 1y ago
We need fast charging e-bike infrastructure
hbarka 1y ago
Any details on the regen efficiency? Going downhill would net back some energy depending on regen efficiency.
lpellis 1y ago
This thing at least looks like a bike, some of the 'e-bikes' are way more motorcycles than actually meant to be paddled.
programmertote 1y ago
Glad to see innovation in bicycle space. That said, when I was living in NYC, I was always afraid that someone on an e-bike would hit me when I'm trying to cross the road (esp. in the evenings or when the weather doesn't permit a lot of visibility). Some of these e-bikers also ride on the pedestrian platforms and it's dangerous (as of 2022, I don't think there was any enforcement to keep them out of the platforms). It'd be interesting to see if/how e-bike laws would evolve if this trend gets bigger (ebikes are already big in big cities like NYC)
yalogin 1y ago
28mph as the top speed seems to go beyond the bike market, but it’s positioned as a bike. It’s also marketed as a mountain bike. Of course it’s on the person to be safe, just wondering if it becomes a problem on the roads and trails
- rtkwe 1y ago
  28 mph is the legal max for Class 3 ebikes with pedal assist. It's the max you can usually legally ride without getting into license requirements etc in most of the US.
Computer0 1y ago
The TM-Q is much more interesting to me as an outsider. What if these are clogging up city bike lanes for commercial purposes? https://ridealso.com/products/quad https://ridealso.com/products/quad
- mperham 1y ago
  You build bigger lanes. Paris and London are quickly learning this lesson.
  - subroutine 1y ago
    There are already bigger lanes - it's where the cars drive. What is the difference between a Tesla and a TM-Q loaded with 30 amazon packages?
- sameline 1y ago
  Amazon has been using a vehicle that looks very similar to the enclosed version in upper Manhattan the last few months. Given their existing relationship with Rivian maybe they have some kind of early access.
- tim333 1y ago
  We have quite a lot of those sort of things in London. They don't seem to cause much problems. They certainly clog the roads much less than conventional commercial vehicles.
justinator 1y ago
Pedaling to make energy to store in a battery that then runs an electric motor seems to get around the best thing about bicycles: their efficiency. No one is going to do that. It's an electric motorcycle in disguise. Don't even play.
- dfltr 1y ago
  If only there were some way to take all that work of pedaling and efficiently translate it into torque on the rear wheel, right?
  - justinator 1y ago
    like a... drive train or something? science fiction my good dude.
    - _whiteCaps_ 1y ago
      Wouldn't you be able to pedal at your most efficient rate, and go at whatever speed you want? Like how diesel-electric trains don't actually drive the wheels with the diesel engine, they power an electric motor. (I've never ridden any kind of e-bike so I don't really know how it works)
      - pandaman 1y ago
        Trains and large trucks use this setup because a mechanical gearbox would need to be enormous to withstand torques they produce. Bikes don't experience even moderate torques so they can be equipped with 10-20 geared transmissions, which weight under 1 kg.
      - justinator 1y ago
        Bikes have very efficient transmission systems, so outside of extremes you can pedal at an efficient amount of torque for the rider regardless of say: hitting a big hill. This is doubly so for e-bikes that assist in the pedaling. This is more akin to a hybrid car, who's gas engine could generate electricity, but in the case of this e-Bike from Rivian, why would you do that? The electric motor is significantly more powerful than a person's legs, outside of the Pro Peleton. Watch anyone on a Class 3 ebike: they're not pedaling. The bicycle drivetrain is just there to get around regulations, like having a license. Rivian isn't known for making hyper-efficient electric vehicles. Rivians are MANLY trucks made to do MANLY truck things, like go fast! and go through tires faster!
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ChuckMcM 1y ago
I tend to agree with comments that point out that 'modern' e-bikes are really electric motor cycles or the original "MoPed" from the 60's. And they have the same appeal, relatively cheap to operate, fit in between regulatory categories, don't require a garage to store, Etc. E-scooters aren't much better (just worse kinematics). That said, I never thought the Segway was ever going to be more than a 'niche' product whereas I had already lived in a city[1] with thousands of mopeds. To the extent they are embraced by urban planners with reduced parking mandates and their own roadways I think they are a net win for cities, when they terrorize pedestrians on sidewalks, not so much. [1] Brussels.
- mc32 1y ago
  Mopeds but with crappier seats. Mopeds at least had decently comfortable seats and could seat a passenger —if we’re considering normal BMI folks.
  - nntwozz 1y ago
    Moped seats are for sitting, bike seats are for pedaling. They're not worse, they're different because they need to be.
    - mc32 1y ago
      Are people going to pedal on these things? Mopeds could also be pedalled if stalled -unlike scooters. I mean, sure, I know their form factor is that of a bike --but its locomotion is more similar to that of a e-moped. Unfortunately with very lousy seats. At moped and these ebike speeds you want better seating.
      - ygjb 1y ago
        Yes. There are e-bikes that look like motorcycles or mopeds that can be pedaled, but are uncomfortable, and there are e-bikes that look vespa style scooters that have pedals but it's completely impractical to pedal them - the pedal operation is there to qualify under specific requirements to be classified as an e-bike.
TheAlchemist 1y ago
I'm not sure we can call these things bikes. It weights almost 40kgs... You cannot physically ride even slightly uphill when the battery dies. It's just a motor or a scooter.
- random3 1y ago
  I guess the difference is these can "legally" ride on sidewalks
fumar 1y ago
I would rather just pick up a Maeving RMS or a CE 02. TM-B weighs 90 lbs and is not quite a scooter or bike.
dashundchen 1y ago
While this looks pretty slick, i definitely agree with commenters this falls on the moped end of things. I will assume from the features listed that it's loaded with proprietary parts. I'm an everyday cyclist and when people ask me for recommendations on bike, I almost always recommend they look at traditional bike brands with e-bikes, rather than pure e-bike brands. Traditional bike shop level bike brands typically have reputable Bosch or Bafang motors (preferably mid drive, not in the wheels hub)and computers, but the rest of the bike will be mostly standard bike brakes, wheel sizes, derailleurs, chains, hubs etc. Bring one of those DTC e-bike brands into your local shop and there's probably a 50% chance they'll work on it. Good luck finding replacement parts or getting support from the company with no local prescence. Look on /r/bikemechanics to see the horror show working on some of these bikes has become. One of the great things about cycling is that almost anyone can learn to fix and maintain their bike. It's affordable and mostly standardized at this point It's extremely accessible with YouTube Videos, the Park Tool Blue Book, and bike coops or workshops in most cities. Many local shops are happy to share knowledge with their customers. The closer your e-bike is to a traditional bike, the better time you'll have in the long run.
strogonoff 1y ago
As someone who enjoys bicycling every now and then, I suspect a 40 kg Also TM-B hurling up a tight bicycle lane at 50 km/h can be somewhat hazardous to people on regular (unpowered and light) bicycles—not unlike a motorcycle, but obviously to a lesser degree. For comparison, Seoul bike lanes allow pedal-assist bikes that are limited to 25 km/h and weigh no more than 30 kg (battery included), which seems pretty generous.
daft_pink 1y ago
I really wish they would offer a Class 1 or Class 2 version.
- rtkwe 1y ago
  Why?
  - daft_pink 1y ago
    because class 1 or 2 is allowed to go pretty much anywhere a bicycle is allowed to go where I live and class 3 has more restrictions.
    - rtkwe 1y ago
      Fair, I've not looked into how places are treating the different classes of electric bikes differently since I don't have one and my neighborhood isn't great for biking.
      - daft_pink 1y ago
        Where I live the city is trying to crack down on children riding fast scooters/bikes in the streets and in the city center and doubling and tripling up on them etc. I do regularly see teenagers and tweens engaging in unsafe activities on scooters and I understand. So they passed a bunch of strict laws which only apply to the city, but they aren't allowed to override state law on Class 1 and 2 bikes, so the law is very clear and simple for them and they mostly can't pass anything. State law allows localities to implement more restrictons on class 3, so it's a little bit murkier for class 3 bikes here. The city ordinance is actually very difficult to understand, because it's broadly written, so you might think that some things are illegal because it's not totally clear where it's overridden by state law. It's clear as mud, not simple english and you have to be an attorney and do some research to understand it.
nntwozz 1y ago
Small outdated 26 inch wheels, ugly, looks very heavy. Promo pictures look cringe with metrosexuals riding them on a gravel road. Cool. Typical 2020s design trying to appeal to the smartphone/sedentary crowd who know nothing about bikes. For this kind of money you can get a really nice eMTB like the Mith from UNNO which has 29 inch wheels, weighs 47 lbs (21.3kg) and is a much more capable bike with a 800Wh battery. https://www.unno.com/en-us/mith https://www.unno.com/en-us/mith If you don't want classic transmission there are other eMTBs with a Pinion gearbox: https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/bikes-e-mtb-en https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/bikes-e-mtb-en
- iknowstuff 1y ago
  “metrosexuals”? what a whiplash to 2005 lmao
- pavel_lishin 1y ago
  > Typical 2020s design trying to appeal to the smartphone/sedentary crowd who know nothing about bikes. What's the problem with appealing to that crowd?
pm90 1y ago
The cargo version IMO might be a bigger hit. I can see not just last mile, but perhaps within large factories, golf clubs etc.
- subroutine 1y ago
  Electric golf carts have existed since the 1950s, and are the cart type available at most golf courses in the US. Regarding factories, a variant with a pallet mover or fork lift would be handy (but electric lifts are probably the second most common type if they haven't already surpassed propane).
vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
It seems US manufacturers only cater to the luxury segment. How about doing something simple, reliable and cheap? With the tariffs soon they will kill off cheap foreign options and we will only have upscale things to buy. It used to be that the US was good at producing for the mass market but it seems that's over. This thing seems totally overengineered by people who never use bikes
- TulliusCicero 1y ago
  > How about doing something simple, reliable and cheap? Like Rad Power Bikes? Though IIRC they're not doing too well at the moment. I have a Juiced bike myself for the commute, it's quite nice.
robotburrito 1y ago
Throttles are so lame. They make these things motorcycles that pretend to be bicycles ridden at 20+ mph in bike lanes by people who mostly haven’t ridden anything at all for 20 years so they lack the knowledge of etiquette and bicycle handling skills putting a bunch of us a risk IMO.
t1234s 1y ago
I like the idea of regen making its way into pedal assist mountain bikes. It would act as a sort of descent control.
dgacmu 1y ago
Now a clever engineer needs to add "peloton mode" -- use it as a stationary exercise bike and charge the battery at the same time.
SamDc73 1y ago
For 4.5k that's quite expensive .. I got a bike for $1300 been using it for 1.5 years (around 7-10 miles a day) and the thing for bikes usually people pay it all upfront (unlike cars were mostly bought in installments) so the price difference there are quite noticeable
thradgt 1y ago
I'm actually pretty excited about this, and I've always been surprised that there isn't an electric bike like this. One of the main user interface challenges with a pedal assist E bike is how to make the experience feel as intuitive as just pedaling a normal bicycle with a chain, but be able to embrace all of the UX freedom afforded by the "Pedal by wire" separation. Consider that because there's an electric generator that the pedals are powering, the software can vary how much amperage is allowed to be generated and so provide variable force feedback as it were, and the software can set any relationship between the input (pedaling frequency, torque, rate of change etc.) and the behavior of the traction motor. I think that's the basis for actually a very exciting pedaling platform. They also say in the article that the generator itself can create enough power to substantively move the motor, which is pretty awesome in my mind but I can totally understand how that feels circuitous.
rocauc 1y ago
The bike lane compliant vehicle category is exciting. Infinite Machine (infinitemachine.com) made me aware of this category with their Olto model, which is at a (surprisingly) superior price point.
charles_f 1y ago
This looks like a trendy car company solution to a commuter ebike. The ebike market is quite saturated already. Full suspension is kind of a gimmick on an ebike, my commute goes through some steep slopes, rocks and mud, and my hardtail is hapoy with it. The whole "pedaling to load the battery" is both inefficient (you'll lose north of 70% of energy on the most efficient bike dynamos) and less reliable than having a direct link between your pedals and the wheel. The only advantage I see is not having a derailleur, but your derailleur will still be there when your bike's dead. Belt drive has its fellowship, but I still prefer a chain: I've put >4000km in my commuter with marginal lubrification and maybe 2-3 cleanings a year, it's still kicking, and finding a belt is harder than a chain. I'm assuming that they will find buyers, either because it looks like a cool toy, or because rivian has fans ; but for all intents and purposes I don't think it's a good bike. It's probably a matter of preference, I'm on my bike whether it's sunny in the summer raining the rest of the year, and sometimes under the snow. It's a convenience. My commuter receives very little attention from me, it just works. I clean the chain just about every time I have to replace the brakes, and that's it for maintenance. Everything that makes it less sturdy is a danger that it will be ledd reliable and more if a hassler, that's why I wouldn't go with unproven solutions like that
- tirant 1y ago
  It still misses something basic for a commuter bike, a mudguard. An urban or commuting bike without one makes no sense whatsoever.
  - calcifer 1y ago
    It's a $50 add-on on their website.
    - giardini 1y ago
      Mudguards should be default for bikes. It's absurd that when it rains people ride bikes and walk around with a stripe of shite up their back and front b/c manufacturers are too cheap to include fenders (mudguards) on bikes. The customers aren't much smarter of course - they bought the bike! Anyone fool enough to walk around (twice) looking like that deserves ridicule.
beAbU 1y ago
Reminds me of this: https://youtu.be/c__jbrnsxXU?si=D8n2sqRTkyur9gaq https://youtu.be/c__jbrnsxXU?si=D8n2sqRTkyur9gaq It's not really intended for bicycleists, it's intended for rivian owners.
ryzvonusef 1y ago
At this point, just accept electric motorcycles/scooters are a distinct category that you'd like to accept and promote, and get rid of the vestigial pedals. In my country, our govt is promoting e-cycles, and they are about ~ USD 1,000, after being imported from China. They have similar specs to these 'bikes' (range-wise) and I think they are better vehicles, both in price and in utility. https://www.pave.gov.pk/vehicles https://www.pave.gov.pk/vehicles No need to add fake pedals or create a useless 'bike' frame when people are earning for a scooter/motorcycle. Create easier licensing/registration options and you will see adoption rise for the vehicles people truly want.
- DanielHB 1y ago
  I don't get what you mean, electric scooters are already a thing? At least in most countries in Europe they are classified the same type of vehicle as pedal-assisted e-bicycles and are capped at 25km/h and can ride in the bike lanes. If they go faster they are classified as full motorcycle and have to ride on the road with the cars and requires a license and a license plate (regardless if electric or non-electric). https://dualwheeljourney.com/mopeds/swedish-moped-class-1-and-2-explained/ https://dualwheeljourney.com/mopeds/swedish-moped-class-1-an... > get rid of the vestigial pedals. Pedal-assisted is very much not a vestigial category, plenty of people want to get exercise and not just ride a scooter. On top of that they massively increase the range of the bicycle and the bicycle is still usable when the battery runs out.
- simgt 1y ago
  I've been annoyed by this as well for a while. I have a non-electric cargo bike but I don't care if others have pedals or not. I'm more scared of a bakfeit mum zooming through at 25km/h than a lightweight Chinese-style moped going slower than that. Regulating who can go where by speed and weight would make much more sense than creating all these arbitrary categories in my opinion.
unwind 1y ago
Oh: I was surprised/saddened that the article mentioned Cake's bankruptcy, so I had to check and it seems the company/assets and a lot of staff was acquired by Norwegian company Brages [1] so it kind of still exists, at least. Not sure if that means they no longer sell in the US, though. [1]: https://ridecake.com/en-SE/the-cake-journey-continues https://ridecake.com/en-SE/the-cake-journey-continues
- tim333 1y ago
  I had a look and > Good enough to make me think the $9,000 / €9,000 starting price isn’t as crazy as I first thought. I think there may be a limited market at the higher price points given you can get a pretty good ebike for a fraction of that.
  - impossiblefork 1y ago
    A bunch of them have Öhlins suspensions, so it's obviously a special market.
bjourne 1y ago
This is obvious marketing spam. Not hn worthy imo.
buenzlikoder 1y ago
Related: Car companies have been screwing up e-bikes for longer than you think https://electrek.co/2024/04/02/car-companies-have-been-screwing-up-e-bikes-for-longer-than-you-think/ https://electrek.co/2024/04/02/car-companies-have-been-screw...
tromp 1y ago
A french company is developing similar technology called PERS (pedaling energy recovery system) [1] that is actually chainless. This comparison [2] claims an overall efficiency of around 64%, with both generator and motor losing about 20% each. They were interviewed by the Laidback bike report [3]. [1] https://www.cixi.life/pers-technology https://www.cixi.life/pers-technology [2] https://www.ebike24.com/blog/chainless-ebikes https://www.ebike24.com/blog/chainless-ebikes [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyGDZw3VPlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyGDZw3VPlI
dingdingdang 1y ago
I think someone is missing a massive marketing/product-improvement opportunity by not selling a scaffold for the bike to allow it to be used as an exercise bike - this is turn would make significant savings on people's electricity budget .. then suddenly the direct-to-battery pedal arrangement would go from weakness to proper feature! #feelfreetocontactmewithmonetaryreward
eeasss 1y ago
Climate change is tailwind for e-bikes. What we need is better infrastructure accross and muscle memory to use them. If only politicians would invest more in infrastructure... (speaking from Southern EU perspective)
- trollbridge 1y ago
  Here in the USA, there are bike lanes and dedicated bike trails everywhere and a great deal of ebike adoption. The problem is that regulatory frameworks haven’t caught up and public sentiment is becoming quite negative when yet another brutal accident happens.
temperceve 1y ago
Weird !
sotix 1y ago
So if people don't like this, does anyone have a recommendation for a good, class 1 (pedal assist only) bike?
h14h 1y ago
IMO a huge missed opportunity for these indirect-drive bikes is marketing them as a home exercise bike 2-in-1. If the pedals are going into a generator with fancy software to emulate the feel of a bike, there's nothing stopping the bike from going into "stationary mode" and acting as an exercise bike. This thing even had a screen on it, so you could do workouts like a peloton. Then there's the storage aspect -- many people already have (or want) to allocate space to an exercise bike. It would pretty compelling that was also the parking space for your bike-bike. Then there's the added benefit that your workout is charging the battery. Imagine biking to a park on low charge, doing a stationary workout, and then having enough battery left to bike home with full assist.
- bognition 1y ago
  Its an interesting idea and the engineer in my agrees with you. Then the product skeptic says that anyone who wants to ride a bike as a form of exercise and get around using a bike, would probably just ride a normal bike.
  - almostgotcaught 1y ago
    Yup the venn diagram of people who buy an electric bike (ie don't want to work hard to push pedals) and people who want an exercise bike (where the only thing going on is pedal pushing, no moving) has exactly one person in the center piece: op.
    - trenchpilgrim 1y ago
      I own both! I use my ebike for shopping and visiting my parents who live on a steep hill near the base of a mountain range. And I have an exercise bike in my office to stretch my legs in the winter.
  - h14h 1y ago
    I think it's an incredibly common use case in places where biking is the default transit mode. I like biking for exercise, but I don't necessarily want to be a sweaty mess after my commute for work, or when lugging my kids around, or when getting groceries.
plasticchris 1y ago
People talking about efficiency are missing the point - the pedals are only there so it gets classified as an e-bike and not an electric motorcycle (so no license required, registration, taxes, can drive in the bike lane) and doesn’t have the jerky handling of an e-bike with the wheels mechanically linked to the pedals. They never really intend for you to turn the pedals. It is a regulatory thing.
WhereIsTheTruth 1y ago
> $4,500 Haha. https://www.himobikes.com/ https://www.himobikes.com/
fattybob 1y ago
It looks good and has many soold features that meet most needs, but seriously lacking the simplest mud guard prediction that almost all no sport bikes need

252 points by hasheddan 1y ago

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

Well, it certainly has a Rivian price. I suspect I'll be seeing these around here, soon.

ZeroGravitas 1y ago

I walked past a near identical delivery quad to their TM-Q not an hour ago.

sampton 1y ago

The kid carrier looks dangerously top heavy.

ourguile 1y ago

Very interesting, really liking the swappable components in the quad. I'm a big cyclist but have been looking for something new to take around for commuting that isn't a scooter. Great to see more manufacturers getting in on micromobility options.

iotsloppyo 1y ago

Reeks of Juicero. NFS lock and unlock. GPS locator. Capacitance touchscreen controls. Hydraulic disc brakes. Companion helmet with wirelessly connected brake lights, and noise cancelling(?!) speakers. Why do we need to learn the same lessons over and over again?

karlgkk 1y ago
What? lol The issue with juicero is that their hardware design was needlessly and insanely over complicated, like magnitudes past anything I’m seeing here - and they DRMd something that didn’t need to be DRMd (juice) For this bike, those are features people regularly want in e-bikes and cost very little to add - the bike already needs a capable cpu for battery management and acceleration curve controlling. These are features that people differentiate these pseudo motorcycles on. “We” have learned the lesson. The helmet is very juicero tho
interstice 1y ago
I wouldn’t lump disk brakes in with the rest of those, maybe the hydraulic part is overkill though.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- mortenjorck 1y ago
  The $999 Lectric XP4 has hydraulic disc brakes. While uncommon at that price point, it's not unusual to see them on $1500-2k e-bikes.
  - BoorishBears 1y ago
    My ebike has hydraulic disk brakes and a CVT, e bikes have moved forward from the bike-shaped-object era
    - bluescrn 1y ago
      They've moved on from the 'can maintain/repair it with basic tools' era. Soon they'll be dependent on the cloud and subscription services... (Kind of amazed that wireless derailleurs became a thing. Replacing a simple mechanical device with complex tech requiring two batteries)
    - dreamcompiler 1y ago
      Enviolo CVT? I'm curious about how you like it. I rented a Blue Bike in Boston with a CVT and loved it.
      - BoorishBears 1y ago
        I've liked it, not being serviceable is a drawback but it's been issue-free for 3 years now I wish I had the automatic shifting module for SF's hills, but it's a nice to have that probably isn't as useful elsewhere
  - slaw 1y ago
vel0city 1y ago
Having hydraulic disc brakes on a bicycle like this isn't something odd. Tons of regular bicycles have them these days. The only kind of weird thing I see here is the idea the pedals aren't actually directly connected to the drive train, they just turn a generator.
- thrill 1y ago
  That’s going to separate force-applied from force-required while riding - a much more comfortable pedal action.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    That is what gears are for. The only time gears fail is when you want to pedal harder without going faster - charge the battery. Downhill with a tailwind the cautious can reach this situation, but most just go faster. gears with a chain is more energy efficient.
dsr_ 1y ago
Hydraulic brakes are great. I have them on two bikes and would certainly buy them again. The bike cost nowhere near $4500 and certainly doesn't have any "smart" integration other than a holder for my phone, which I added myself for $13.
pchew 1y ago
There's literally thousands of e-bikes with touch screens and it would be unsafe for a bike of this weight to have anything other than hydraulic disc brakes, which are the standard for just about anything that isn't a road bike these days. Locator also pretty common even on $1,000 ebikes. But yes, other stuff seems to be features for the sake of features.
- dreamcompiler 1y ago
  E-bikes with properly adjusted mechanical disc brakes are perfectly safe, and mechanical brakes are easy to adjust yourself without the need to take them to a bike shop. It's the discs that are important -- not whether they are mechanical or hydraulic.
  - hnav 1y ago
    conversely hydraulics don't need adjustment
    - dreamcompiler 1y ago
      ...except when they do. If you get a leak or an air bubble for example and have to flush the system, you'll need a trip to the bike shop.
      - hnav 1y ago
        If you put miles on your bike and ride hills, you'll spend way more time fiddling with an allen/torx on the inboard pad or the adjustment barrel on the cable as your pads wear. The bleeding procedure for hydraulics is for sure messier, but still very doable in 5 minutes. When you do have air in the system, pumping the lever a bit gives you back some braking function.
- kulahan 1y ago
  A touchscreen on a primarily-outdoor device makes no sense to me. It's just a single point of failure for fanciness. Transit safety should be taken more seriously, with controls you can operate by feel, rather than vision. It's not important if lots and lots of companies include this single point of failure. Edit: also, don't capacitive screens kinda suck if they get a little wet? like what, you just can't use the screen controls while it's raining without risking unlocking your seat 40,000 times in a half second due to a stray raindrop sitting on the screen? Feels like resistive would explicitly be superior here. You probably don't need huge accuracy for what should ideally be a spacious display anyways.
dreamcompiler 1y ago
There's nothing wrong with hydraulic disc brakes on an e-bike, except that hydraulic brakes are hard to maintain yourself without special tools. All e-bikes need disc brakes, period. Any e-bike (or any merely heavy bike) is unsafe without disc brakes. Whether those brakes are mechanical or hydraulic doesn't matter nearly as much as the fact that they use discs.
Jblx2 1y ago
What does "NFS" stand for in this context? https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NFS https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NFS
- kelnos 1y ago
  I think they meant NFC (as in Near Field Communication).
- blacksmith_tb 1y ago
  A typo for NFC seems likely.
- tekacs 1y ago
  They mean NFC, I think.
- iotsloppyo 1y ago
  Yup, typo and unable to edit the comment now. NFC, Near Field Communication.
wolrah 1y ago
I'm with you on the automatic lock/unlock and full-touch controls, I don't like either of those design choices in cars and I don't want them in a bike either. That said a GPS locator is great on an e-bike. They're high value theft targets, anything that makes them harder to steal, easier to track, or otherwise reduces the appeal of stealing one is a good thing. Hydraulic disc brakes are a great thing even on non-electronic bikes. I won't buy another bike without them. My hardtail mountain bike, gravel bike, and e-cruiser are all hydraulic discs.
dilyevsky 1y ago
ah yes hydraulic disk brakes on like 80lbs bike is exactly like juicero
cols 1y ago
Hydraulic disc brakes are table stakes for a mountain or gravel bike nowadays. Dual or preferably quad piston calipers on a big rotor make a significant difference when it comes to stopping power.
vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago
To me this looks like how people who never use a bike imagine a good bike. I am ok with the brakes but the rest just makes the bike more complex and expensive with possible planned obsolescence. I don't want to deal with firmware updates for my bike.
tim333 1y ago
I wonder if you can still ride it if they turn their server off? "activates and deactivates when the rider is nearby" sounds iffy like that. I was riding a Forest bike yesterday where the user app and bike both have to connect to Forest's servers and it's kind of a pain.

soco 1y ago

Bear with me I don't know much about bikes but I have this honest question: why does it need a chain, and won't place the engine (or whatever gear box it has) directly on the wheel?

SirFatty 1y ago
So it will appear as a bicycle and be allowed on paths in parks (is what I'm guessing).
- Stedag 1y ago
  It's a backup so that if you do lose power, you can still pedal home. Major pain to pedal an 80 lb fixed gear bike, but This is standard on ebikes and doesn't contribute much weight or cost in itself.
  - jodrellblank 1y ago
    > "It's a backup so that if you do lose power, you can still pedal home." The pedals are not connected to the chain or wheels, it's surely a legal dodge to pretend it's a pedelec not a motorbike.
STKFLT 1y ago
The biggest reason is minimizing unsprung mass, the performance of the rear suspension would be much worse with a hub motor.
- Groxx 1y ago
  does that actually matter much on anything except dirt-bike tracks, or trying to go 40mph on a horrifically bumpy track? minus some comfort advantage, of course. like technically, sure, it's obviously true. but for performance it only really matters when you would get air time with higher mass, and the lower mass stays in contact more. commuter e-biking generally doesn't get anywhere near those speeds or bump-sizes. (trail biking: sure! I 100% believe it's a sizable consideration there)

jlhawn 1y ago

a full suspension e-bike, 500+Wh battery, with a belt drive for $4,500 is honestly a really good deal. There is a shortage of options when it comes to full-suspension bikes that are good for commutes. Compare this to any e-bike with the Bosch e-bike system. The big risk here for consumers if whether they can match the service, support, and reliability that Bosch has. There appears to be a class-2 e-bike option which is something that significantly differentiates it from bikes with the Bosch system.

givemeethekeys 1y ago
"Honestly" does not make it a "really good" deal. It's an e-bike. The competition is stiff, better looking, and better priced. If they're lucky, this will appeal to university professors and over achieving parents of unsuspecting kids who want a cool bike but got an expensive dorky one instead.
- jlhawn 1y ago
  The e-bike market has multiple tiers/segments. This is not priced to compete with brands like Rad Power Bikes, Lectric, or Aventon. It's likely going to compete with brands like Tern, Benno, Gazelle, Trek, etc. edit: ask yourself why the median new car in the US sells for over $50k when you can easily find cars for less than half that price.
  - qwytw 1y ago
    I find it hard to imagine what the overlap between this and e.g. ebikes from Trek, though. Besides the price of course... It's an entirely different product.
  - givemeethekeys 1y ago
    Cars that cost North of 50k is a good example. I wish this bike looked as attractive as its price needs it to be.
qwytw 1y ago
I really don't get what the point of the pedals on a thing like this, though. I guess mainly to satisfy some sort of regulations which separate bikes and motorcycle like vehicles? Considering that they aren't even connected to the drivetrain...

1970-01-01 1y ago

Hey Dean Kamen, See how it just becomes a bicycle when it's discharged or broken? This is much, much closer to what we expected from the Segway.

dghlsakjg 1y ago
Look again. This is pedal by wire. If it is broken the pedals will just spin because there is no mechanical link between the pedals and the parts that make the vehicle move.

JanSolo 1y ago

Great! Another bunch of micromobility products that nobody asked for. And the price! I can buy 6 very decent Chinese ebikes of various formats for the $4500 this thing will cost. I'm sure it will be more advanced and nicely designed, but it's just way too expensive. Bicycles are a mass-market item. Price is the primary decider. If you want to be successful, you have to be cheaper than the competition. Who is this for?

nharada 1y ago
> Price is the primary decider That's not even true for normal bicycles. Serious cyclists can spend massive amounts of cash on their rides. Aside from that, if you're using this as a vehicle you want more than just the cheapest thing out there. Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school.
- jeffbee 1y ago
  By massive amounts, of course you meant "dramatically less than any car", right? Most serious bicyclists I know, some with wonderful bikes, still spent less on their bikes than the typical American spends getting the air conditioned seats option in their F-150.
- dghlsakjg 1y ago
  > Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school. True, but this bike is completely non-standard so sort of blows that. There isn't even a direct connection between the pedals and the wheels. If the electrical bits stop responding you don't even have a bike, you have a really awkward velocipede. Every other e-bike that I have ridden or seen is still a bike when there is no power.

jauntywundrkind 1y ago

The battery system here sounds so sweet. Swappable, with a respectable 0.5kWh and then an Extended Range 0.8kWh is excellent. Usb-c chargeable at 240W is divinely sweet. Maybe maybe some day dual USB would be nice (for the ER especially) but this is quite respectable. And by not trying to super fast charge the battery will live longer anyhow. Being removable is another nice win, if not uncommon. I don't know which other batteries provide USB power even without the bike, which again is such a great nice to have: take the bike to a park then bring with an charge some phones or what-not. In the future I really hope we see some battery alliances, making some form factors, and centralizing on usb-c. As would be good common sense. The overlap between a bike battery and standalone Delta or Ecoflow battery power station is huge, and Rivian here seems a little further along than most at hybridizing & generalizing a battery system: obvious win to anyone paying attention! The modularity could be a major win too. I'd love to see a an e-bike maker go down the Ford Bronco path & add a bunch of attachments points and replaceable/modular pieces to the design, and release all the specs for free use! Even if it only is Rivian and some partners doing this here, this is the way, it feels like: > The top frame of the TM-B is modular by design, so the bike can be transformed without tools into a cargo hauler, kid carrier, or cruiser with a bench seat. Cargo haulers easily climb to the 6000$ ranges. And the massive 180NM motor here will not bat an eye! One thing I'd love to see: a stationary bike mode. Bring it inside for the winter & do spin class, charging up the battery. The full series hybrid, no mechanical linkage, doesnt deel super super practical to be honest but it's interesting! A lot of nice basic things that make sense. Like no longer needing special cherging equipment for reasonably good capacity chwrging (albeit most usb-c chargers will only be doing 100w for a while now, but that seems fine).

hnav 1y ago
bikes are already highly "modular" in that outside of ebike motor systems you can swap most parts. Bikes like the Rivian in the article would only work if ruggedized and sold to fleets. As a consumer you'd just get something from Specialized at this price point since it won't be worthless in 2 years time.
- jauntywundrkind 1y ago

dmitrygr 1y ago

Only 28mph max speed, and the firmware might actually be properly protected from this bug being easily fixed. I'll stick to my Chinese scooters run by code-unlocked STM32F103 clones i can easily cure of such idiocy.

dreamcompiler 1y ago

808Wh battery and 100 miles of range. These two numbers track with each other and are roughly believable. OTOH, with a battery this big, a generator powered by the pedals, and regen braking this thing has to be heavy. I'd expect it to weigh at least 80 lbs. More likely 100. The fact that their "specs" say nothing about weight suggests they're embarrassed about the weight.

jeffbee 1y ago
Regen braking is how you can tell this was designed by a moron. The energy balance simply does not favor regenerative braking on a bicycle, especially a bicycle that flippantly ignores aerodynamics like this one does. A bicyclist loses roughly all of their energy to air resistance. It's not a truck. There is not substantial potential energy to be recaptured going down hills.
- big_toast 1y ago
  Not a big cyclist but is that still true for lower speed city riding (typical to flat european cycling prone countries), hillier SF, or mountain biking? It seems obviously true to typical racing or distance scenarios. And i notice the wind even at lower speeds on e-bikes in SF. But between their quad scenario and what I imagine as the urban car replacement scenario it doesn't seem as obvious.
  - jeffbee 1y ago
    Yes, it is true at all speed and under all conditions. The system simply does not have the mass that would give it a great deal of gravitational potential energy, and it reaches a power equilibrium with the air at low speeds. Example: 100kg rider at 15 kph = .24W-h kinetic energy. At this speed there is probably roughly 11N of air and rolling resistance, so the steady state power is about 3W-h per km. If you go 1km between stops, or more, the amount you can expect to gain by regeneration is extremely small. It could perhaps extend your range by 5%, generously.
    - 1y ago

Tiktaalik 1y ago

> Also also unveiled its Alpha Wave helmet.... It also features integrated lights and a four-speaker, wind-shielded internal audio system with two noise-canceling mics. The helmet integrates with the TM-B’s console, where music, calls, and podcasts can be controlled on the bike. In an ideal world these would be great features to have, but in the real world, where so many places have a near complete absence of safe cycling infrastructure and bicycles are casually mixed in with giant trucks it's a bit of a scary notion to reduce your situational awareness with a great sound system and the distraction of doing your morning zoom standup while cycling to work (I've done this before lol, tho most of my commute is in separated bike lanes...). This points to the headwinds to adoption and success of the Also, which is that so many cities are ambivalent and uninterested if not outright ideologically opposed to building safe all ages and abilities bike lanes. That sort of safe infrastructure is critical to the success of a product like this. It's really unfortunate.

bb88 1y ago
I've seen a lot of people use noise cancelling ear buds on roads using pedal bikes, so I don't see how this is any different really.
- jakedata 1y ago
  I just added strips of fake fur to the straps my boring old helmet to diffuse the wind noise the same way a "dead cat" cover on a microphone does. They look a bit like muttonchops which is a bonus as far as I am concerned. I use wraparound bone conduction headphones that don't block my ears. I would be afraid of losing an expensive earbud.

calmbonsai 1y ago

I'm liking aspects of the design, but I'm concerned about weight and overengineering of simple stuff like the seatpost bracket. Also, the "TM-B Reservation Token" smacks of egregious marketeering. Still, this looks like a solid ebike.

cypherpunks01 1y ago

Most visibly interesting part to me is the frame design without a rear triangle (no seatstay) like a motorcycle or dirtbike. Materials must be real strong to withstand all the torque forces without a rear triangle, right? Any other e-bikes like this?

tomekb 1y ago

I ride a class-3 Tern cargo bike with 400Wh battery and this range is very optimistic, especially since this is pedal-by-wire. Also what happens when the battery runs out, because you can just ride without assist on any Bosch e-bike.

blacksmith_tb 1y ago
Game over with a dead battery, I would think, though I suppose it's possible that the generator you're pedaling is enough for very slow movement without the battery boost...

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

bb88 1y ago

Despite the complaints in this thread there is already a market for $4k ebikes. And people are buying them. The bike competes with a bunch of e-bikes in that price range, Evelo Omega, Bosch, etc. So they're hardly a first mover. They are optimizing that market.

hnav 1y ago
yeah but what's the point? At this price point alibaba monsters are far more powerful and real bicycles far more bicycle-like. These will sell a 10-20k units and fade into obscurity like Van Moofs and other disruptive bicycles before them.
- bb88 1y ago
  People typically don't buy big ticket goods from a company named "YACCEEZY" like you might see on Amazon or Aliexpress these days. It's worth noting that Hyundai had a similar issue when it entered the US market. It was an uphill battle to market itself to convince people to spend thousands of dollars of money on a no-name car brand.

yodon 1y ago

I have a 750W e-bike (which actually means 750W peak, 500W sustained). There are hills near my house that my bike can not make it up without significant pedal assist. If the motor and power electronics on this e-bike can only handle 750W peak, 500W sustained, as is common and I think is possibly even legislated in parts of the U.S., this bike will not be able to make it up serious hills. With a normal e-bike, your pedaling is additive to the motor. That is not the case with this design.

derekp7 1y ago
If the motor is geared it could make a difference. For comparison, most people put out about 100 watts with their legs, but need to downshift to go up hills. This looks like a mid drive unit, which should be capable of varied gearing.
- bb88 1y ago
  I was looking for where the gearing was and it doesn't appear to be in the wheels. It looks like it's in the hub. I have a bike with an automatic transmission and it handles steep hills just fine. But generally speaking, I would expect the bike at this price point to have an automatic transmission.
masterj 1y ago
Given it can output 180Nm I expect this thing can get up whatever hill you point it at

sxzygz 1y ago

This new e-bike news drops just as Cory Ellison arrives at his mom’s in a Rivian. Great job marketing dept!

throw7 1y ago

"Drive by Wire"? This is not even anywhere near a "bike". At least you could argue "e-bikes" could still be pedaled without the battery. It's not that anybody would want to or even could, but an argument could be made.

PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago

What I want ... not an E-bike, but an E-version of the BMW C1 Critical features: 1. moderate weather protection 2. vastly improved crash protection 3. top speed above 50mph 4. luggage capacity of a small flatbed trailer I acknowledge the utility of e-bikes for many; for me, I prefer my non-e bike when I want to ride my bike, but would love an e-motorycle as an alternative to 80% of my car trips. https://www.theautopian.com/bmws-first-scooter-had-a-ridiculous-roof-and-promised-car-like-safety-and-train-ticket-like-costs/ https://www.theautopian.com/bmws-first-scooter-had-a-ridicul...

a_ba 1y ago
You‘re in luck BMW recently presented their vision CE. https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/experience/stories/urban-mobility/vision-ce.html https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/experience/stories/urban-m...
- PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
  Sadly, no weather protection and apparently almost zero luggage capacity. But it's a very tiny step in roughly the right direction ...
  - shellfishgene 1y ago
    In the camper image it has a luggage box a sort of roof case.
- dylan604 1y ago
  oh, those concept shots are hysterical. the one with the pink bike and the woman with 3 dogs kills, but the dj setup is where I said "too far" and closed the tab
  - akazantsev 1y ago
    > the dj setup is where I said "too far" and closed the tab Also, it's AI-generated. Zoom in on the right-most guy in the image. Garbage in, garbage out. Embarrassing garbage quality for an official site.

jakedata 1y ago

$4500 is ten or more of my homebrew 750 watt electric mountain bike originally built in 2004. I just repowered with LiFePO4 after 10 years in storage and the new batteries really pull. It has a front hub motor with a throttle control limited to 20 mph. My commute is 10 miles, 6 on a dedicated bike path. Life is good.

wigglewoggle 1y ago
What kind of capacity from your LFP battery? Is it diy built? I did one in the spring 16S with 25Ah cells and it's been amazing since. Only problem is it's a bit too big to fit anywhere I'd like it to. I have to mount it on a rear rack
- jakedata 1y ago
  I am using 3x 12v 185wh batteries in series. Realistically I can count on around 500wh. They are only 3 lbs each and fit neatly within the frame of the mtb. I don't like having them up on the rear rack, they tend to make the tail of the bike wag a bit compared to low and centered. https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1o0qthk/dynagirl_rides_again_2004_2025/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1o0qthk/dynagirl_ri... I just 3d printed protective covers for them last week when marketing turned their back on the new Bambu printer.
  - wigglewoggle 1y ago
    Nice I have a big commute and in the (Canadian) winter my old 750Wh was sometimes not up to the task. So I went wildly over the top and built a huge cap battery. I never need to worry now
    - jakedata 1y ago
      I don't plan to bike commute in the winter, it is too dark AM and PM. Have you tested your LiFePO4 batteries in low temperatures?
trvz 1y ago

eecc 1y ago

Christ what an ugly kludge. Just spend a weekend in Amsterdam and check out the Tenways and the Vanmoof roaming the streets for an idea how to do it, if not right, at least decently

proee 1y ago

Wow, cool bike! Said nobody. It's sad to see so much effort being put into a product that is utterly uncool. Maybe start with the design (cool) and then integrate the mechanics. This is how companies design cool cars.

NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago

This is a motorcycle. It's a cycle with a motor. I love that the popularity of motorcycling is taking off with better batteries, motors, and control systems! It's motorcycling though :-)

webdevver 1y ago
inadequate suspension to be classified as a motorbike imo
- hnav 1y ago
  In terms of travel it has as much as a normal motorcycle. Which is really absurd for a 24" bike even with those stubby crank arms.
- NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
  Some motorcycles don't even have rear suspension. Canonical ones, in fact. Like hardtail Harleys.

barbazoo 1y ago

Not affiliated but I'm looking into converting my commuter bike with a kit from https://ebikes.ca https://ebikes.ca. Seems to make more sense to turn any of the million bikes out there into an electric one using a reusable kit than buying a single purpose electric bike that will end up on the landfill once the company goes bust because no one wants to push around a bike that heavy.

oulipo2 1y ago
Self-plug: you can take a look at our repairable and sustainable battery at https://gouach.com https://gouach.com. If it gets depleted, it's super easy to replace cells, getting you a whole new battery for $50 (price of cells) instead of buying a new $200 - $500 battery
r0me1 1y ago
I disagree, I went that route and ended up regretting it. While converting a regular bike to an e-bike does work, a standard commuter bike is designed to carry a person’s weight with the center of gravity in mind. Adding an electric hub motor and a 20 lb lithium battery to a frame with cantilever brakes just feels sketchy. A properly designed e-bike typically comes with four-piston hydraulic brakes, and the placement of the motor and battery is engineered to maintain balance and handling.

legitster 1y ago

So the interesting thing about this is the ... peddle-by-wire drivetrain? So unlike a normal e-bike, when its battery dies it turns into a stationary bike. I love ebikes and generally like what Rivian does, but in a very competitive market it's hard to see the appeal of this.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
hbarka 1y ago
If I may also peddle my opinion, this e-bike is a fresh innovation and it's easy to see how revolutionary it is. What very competitive market has regen, 180 newton-meter of torque, programmable power curve, shape-shifting? This e-bike is incredible. These days, who lets their iphone battery die?
- kridsdale1 1y ago
  > a pun Eyyyyyyy
- rglullis 1y ago
  Why should we care for "revolutionary" when the design that has been working for centuries is cheap, widely understood and universally available?
  - palmotea 1y ago
    > Why should we care for "revolutionary" when the design that has been working for centuries is cheap, widely understood and universally available? Because some designer wants to feel good about themselves, better than all who came before.
    - rglullis 1y ago
      If wankery is what they they are after, maybe they should go design "revolutionary" sex toys.

bix6 1y ago

I wish they’d clean up Class 3. They made the throttles illegal in California.

LoganDark 1y ago

> Due to regulations in some states and jurisdictions, throttle will act as an assist boost in those areas, temporarily increasing your assist multiplier while you hold it down. The bike comes with DRM that automatically tracks which location you're in and applies regulations to the controls? Fucking hell. The only things this seems to have over an electric scooter is larger wheels, a seat, and a cargo rack. It's almost impossible to tell in a time-efficient way though because they really want you to watch their presentation and individually click on each "SEE MORE" button and read each little excerpt one at a time. I'm super annoyed by this website. Even the most premium possible scooter costs almost $1,000 less than this - Apollo Phantom 2.0 Stellar is $3,649 right now, and goes like 50 MPH, has far less DRM, and so on. No cargo space though.

Erikun 1y ago

It has a bit of a “The Homer” feel to it, but maybe the designs grows on you.

bigwheels 1y ago
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/0/05/TheHomer.png https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/0/05/TheHo... (https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer) A classic Simpsons episode!
geephroh 1y ago
"Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a nerf ball..."

plantwallshoe 1y ago

My general advice is to never buy a bike from a company that doesn’t have a core business in building non electric bicycles.

rtkwe 1y ago
At least not their first generation.

browningstreet 1y ago

We need fast charging e-bike infrastructure

hbarka 1y ago

Any details on the regen efficiency? Going downhill would net back some energy depending on regen efficiency.

lpellis 1y ago

This thing at least looks like a bike, some of the 'e-bikes' are way more motorcycles than actually meant to be paddled.

programmertote 1y ago

Glad to see innovation in bicycle space. That said, when I was living in NYC, I was always afraid that someone on an e-bike would hit me when I'm trying to cross the road (esp. in the evenings or when the weather doesn't permit a lot of visibility). Some of these e-bikers also ride on the pedestrian platforms and it's dangerous (as of 2022, I don't think there was any enforcement to keep them out of the platforms). It'd be interesting to see if/how e-bike laws would evolve if this trend gets bigger (ebikes are already big in big cities like NYC)

yalogin 1y ago

28mph as the top speed seems to go beyond the bike market, but it’s positioned as a bike. It’s also marketed as a mountain bike. Of course it’s on the person to be safe, just wondering if it becomes a problem on the roads and trails

rtkwe 1y ago
28 mph is the legal max for Class 3 ebikes with pedal assist. It's the max you can usually legally ride without getting into license requirements etc in most of the US.

Computer0 1y ago

The TM-Q is much more interesting to me as an outsider. What if these are clogging up city bike lanes for commercial purposes? https://ridealso.com/products/quad https://ridealso.com/products/quad

mperham 1y ago
You build bigger lanes. Paris and London are quickly learning this lesson.
- subroutine 1y ago
  There are already bigger lanes - it's where the cars drive. What is the difference between a Tesla and a TM-Q loaded with 30 amazon packages?
sameline 1y ago
Amazon has been using a vehicle that looks very similar to the enclosed version in upper Manhattan the last few months. Given their existing relationship with Rivian maybe they have some kind of early access.
tim333 1y ago
We have quite a lot of those sort of things in London. They don't seem to cause much problems. They certainly clog the roads much less than conventional commercial vehicles.

justinator 1y ago

Pedaling to make energy to store in a battery that then runs an electric motor seems to get around the best thing about bicycles: their efficiency. No one is going to do that. It's an electric motorcycle in disguise. Don't even play.

dfltr 1y ago
If only there were some way to take all that work of pedaling and efficiently translate it into torque on the rear wheel, right?
- justinator 1y ago
  like a... drive train or something? science fiction my good dude.
  - _whiteCaps_ 1y ago
    Wouldn't you be able to pedal at your most efficient rate, and go at whatever speed you want? Like how diesel-electric trains don't actually drive the wheels with the diesel engine, they power an electric motor. (I've never ridden any kind of e-bike so I don't really know how it works)
    - pandaman 1y ago
      Trains and large trucks use this setup because a mechanical gearbox would need to be enormous to withstand torques they produce. Bikes don't experience even moderate torques so they can be equipped with 10-20 geared transmissions, which weight under 1 kg.
    - justinator 1y ago
      Bikes have very efficient transmission systems, so outside of extremes you can pedal at an efficient amount of torque for the rider regardless of say: hitting a big hill. This is doubly so for e-bikes that assist in the pedaling. This is more akin to a hybrid car, who's gas engine could generate electricity, but in the case of this e-Bike from Rivian, why would you do that? The electric motor is significantly more powerful than a person's legs, outside of the Pro Peleton. Watch anyone on a Class 3 ebike: they're not pedaling. The bicycle drivetrain is just there to get around regulations, like having a license. Rivian isn't known for making hyper-efficient electric vehicles. Rivians are MANLY trucks made to do MANLY truck things, like go fast! and go through tires faster!

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ChuckMcM 1y ago

I tend to agree with comments that point out that 'modern' e-bikes are really electric motor cycles or the original "MoPed" from the 60's. And they have the same appeal, relatively cheap to operate, fit in between regulatory categories, don't require a garage to store, Etc. E-scooters aren't much better (just worse kinematics). That said, I never thought the Segway was ever going to be more than a 'niche' product whereas I had already lived in a city[1] with thousands of mopeds. To the extent they are embraced by urban planners with reduced parking mandates and their own roadways I think they are a net win for cities, when they terrorize pedestrians on sidewalks, not so much. [1] Brussels.

mc32 1y ago
Mopeds but with crappier seats. Mopeds at least had decently comfortable seats and could seat a passenger —if we’re considering normal BMI folks.
- nntwozz 1y ago
  Moped seats are for sitting, bike seats are for pedaling. They're not worse, they're different because they need to be.
  - mc32 1y ago
    Are people going to pedal on these things? Mopeds could also be pedalled if stalled -unlike scooters. I mean, sure, I know their form factor is that of a bike --but its locomotion is more similar to that of a e-moped. Unfortunately with very lousy seats. At moped and these ebike speeds you want better seating.
    - ygjb 1y ago
      Yes. There are e-bikes that look like motorcycles or mopeds that can be pedaled, but are uncomfortable, and there are e-bikes that look vespa style scooters that have pedals but it's completely impractical to pedal them - the pedal operation is there to qualify under specific requirements to be classified as an e-bike.

TheAlchemist 1y ago

I'm not sure we can call these things bikes. It weights almost 40kgs... You cannot physically ride even slightly uphill when the battery dies. It's just a motor or a scooter.

random3 1y ago
I guess the difference is these can "legally" ride on sidewalks

fumar 1y ago

I would rather just pick up a Maeving RMS or a CE 02. TM-B weighs 90 lbs and is not quite a scooter or bike.

dashundchen 1y ago

While this looks pretty slick, i definitely agree with commenters this falls on the moped end of things. I will assume from the features listed that it's loaded with proprietary parts. I'm an everyday cyclist and when people ask me for recommendations on bike, I almost always recommend they look at traditional bike brands with e-bikes, rather than pure e-bike brands. Traditional bike shop level bike brands typically have reputable Bosch or Bafang motors (preferably mid drive, not in the wheels hub)and computers, but the rest of the bike will be mostly standard bike brakes, wheel sizes, derailleurs, chains, hubs etc. Bring one of those DTC e-bike brands into your local shop and there's probably a 50% chance they'll work on it. Good luck finding replacement parts or getting support from the company with no local prescence. Look on /r/bikemechanics to see the horror show working on some of these bikes has become. One of the great things about cycling is that almost anyone can learn to fix and maintain their bike. It's affordable and mostly standardized at this point It's extremely accessible with YouTube Videos, the Park Tool Blue Book, and bike coops or workshops in most cities. Many local shops are happy to share knowledge with their customers. The closer your e-bike is to a traditional bike, the better time you'll have in the long run.

strogonoff 1y ago

As someone who enjoys bicycling every now and then, I suspect a 40 kg Also TM-B hurling up a tight bicycle lane at 50 km/h can be somewhat hazardous to people on regular (unpowered and light) bicycles—not unlike a motorcycle, but obviously to a lesser degree. For comparison, Seoul bike lanes allow pedal-assist bikes that are limited to 25 km/h and weigh no more than 30 kg (battery included), which seems pretty generous.

daft_pink 1y ago

I really wish they would offer a Class 1 or Class 2 version.

rtkwe 1y ago
Why?
- daft_pink 1y ago
  because class 1 or 2 is allowed to go pretty much anywhere a bicycle is allowed to go where I live and class 3 has more restrictions.
  - rtkwe 1y ago
    Fair, I've not looked into how places are treating the different classes of electric bikes differently since I don't have one and my neighborhood isn't great for biking.
    - daft_pink 1y ago
      Where I live the city is trying to crack down on children riding fast scooters/bikes in the streets and in the city center and doubling and tripling up on them etc. I do regularly see teenagers and tweens engaging in unsafe activities on scooters and I understand. So they passed a bunch of strict laws which only apply to the city, but they aren't allowed to override state law on Class 1 and 2 bikes, so the law is very clear and simple for them and they mostly can't pass anything. State law allows localities to implement more restrictons on class 3, so it's a little bit murkier for class 3 bikes here. The city ordinance is actually very difficult to understand, because it's broadly written, so you might think that some things are illegal because it's not totally clear where it's overridden by state law. It's clear as mud, not simple english and you have to be an attorney and do some research to understand it.

nntwozz 1y ago

Small outdated 26 inch wheels, ugly, looks very heavy. Promo pictures look cringe with metrosexuals riding them on a gravel road. Cool. Typical 2020s design trying to appeal to the smartphone/sedentary crowd who know nothing about bikes. For this kind of money you can get a really nice eMTB like the Mith from UNNO which has 29 inch wheels, weighs 47 lbs (21.3kg) and is a much more capable bike with a 800Wh battery. https://www.unno.com/en-us/mith https://www.unno.com/en-us/mith If you don't want classic transmission there are other eMTBs with a Pinion gearbox: https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/bikes-e-mtb-en https://www.nicolai-bicycles.com/bikes-e-mtb-en

iknowstuff 1y ago
“metrosexuals”? what a whiplash to 2005 lmao
pavel_lishin 1y ago
> Typical 2020s design trying to appeal to the smartphone/sedentary crowd who know nothing about bikes. What's the problem with appealing to that crowd?

pm90 1y ago

The cargo version IMO might be a bigger hit. I can see not just last mile, but perhaps within large factories, golf clubs etc.

subroutine 1y ago
Electric golf carts have existed since the 1950s, and are the cart type available at most golf courses in the US. Regarding factories, a variant with a pallet mover or fork lift would be handy (but electric lifts are probably the second most common type if they haven't already surpassed propane).

vjvjvjvjghv 1y ago

It seems US manufacturers only cater to the luxury segment. How about doing something simple, reliable and cheap? With the tariffs soon they will kill off cheap foreign options and we will only have upscale things to buy. It used to be that the US was good at producing for the mass market but it seems that's over. This thing seems totally overengineered by people who never use bikes

TulliusCicero 1y ago
> How about doing something simple, reliable and cheap? Like Rad Power Bikes? Though IIRC they're not doing too well at the moment. I have a Juiced bike myself for the commute, it's quite nice.

robotburrito 1y ago

Throttles are so lame. They make these things motorcycles that pretend to be bicycles ridden at 20+ mph in bike lanes by people who mostly haven’t ridden anything at all for 20 years so they lack the knowledge of etiquette and bicycle handling skills putting a bunch of us a risk IMO.

t1234s 1y ago

I like the idea of regen making its way into pedal assist mountain bikes. It would act as a sort of descent control.

dgacmu 1y ago

Now a clever engineer needs to add "peloton mode" -- use it as a stationary exercise bike and charge the battery at the same time.

SamDc73 1y ago

For 4.5k that's quite expensive .. I got a bike for $1300 been using it for 1.5 years (around 7-10 miles a day) and the thing for bikes usually people pay it all upfront (unlike cars were mostly bought in installments) so the price difference there are quite noticeable

thradgt 1y ago

I'm actually pretty excited about this, and I've always been surprised that there isn't an electric bike like this. One of the main user interface challenges with a pedal assist E bike is how to make the experience feel as intuitive as just pedaling a normal bicycle with a chain, but be able to embrace all of the UX freedom afforded by the "Pedal by wire" separation. Consider that because there's an electric generator that the pedals are powering, the software can vary how much amperage is allowed to be generated and so provide variable force feedback as it were, and the software can set any relationship between the input (pedaling frequency, torque, rate of change etc.) and the behavior of the traction motor. I think that's the basis for actually a very exciting pedaling platform. They also say in the article that the generator itself can create enough power to substantively move the motor, which is pretty awesome in my mind but I can totally understand how that feels circuitous.

rocauc 1y ago

The bike lane compliant vehicle category is exciting. Infinite Machine (infinitemachine.com) made me aware of this category with their Olto model, which is at a (surprisingly) superior price point.

charles_f 1y ago

This looks like a trendy car company solution to a commuter ebike. The ebike market is quite saturated already. Full suspension is kind of a gimmick on an ebike, my commute goes through some steep slopes, rocks and mud, and my hardtail is hapoy with it. The whole "pedaling to load the battery" is both inefficient (you'll lose north of 70% of energy on the most efficient bike dynamos) and less reliable than having a direct link between your pedals and the wheel. The only advantage I see is not having a derailleur, but your derailleur will still be there when your bike's dead. Belt drive has its fellowship, but I still prefer a chain: I've put >4000km in my commuter with marginal lubrification and maybe 2-3 cleanings a year, it's still kicking, and finding a belt is harder than a chain. I'm assuming that they will find buyers, either because it looks like a cool toy, or because rivian has fans ; but for all intents and purposes I don't think it's a good bike. It's probably a matter of preference, I'm on my bike whether it's sunny in the summer raining the rest of the year, and sometimes under the snow. It's a convenience. My commuter receives very little attention from me, it just works. I clean the chain just about every time I have to replace the brakes, and that's it for maintenance. Everything that makes it less sturdy is a danger that it will be ledd reliable and more if a hassler, that's why I wouldn't go with unproven solutions like that

tirant 1y ago
It still misses something basic for a commuter bike, a mudguard. An urban or commuting bike without one makes no sense whatsoever.
- calcifer 1y ago
  It's a $50 add-on on their website.
  - giardini 1y ago
    Mudguards should be default for bikes. It's absurd that when it rains people ride bikes and walk around with a stripe of shite up their back and front b/c manufacturers are too cheap to include fenders (mudguards) on bikes. The customers aren't much smarter of course - they bought the bike! Anyone fool enough to walk around (twice) looking like that deserves ridicule.

beAbU 1y ago

Reminds me of this: https://youtu.be/c__jbrnsxXU?si=D8n2sqRTkyur9gaq https://youtu.be/c__jbrnsxXU?si=D8n2sqRTkyur9gaq It's not really intended for bicycleists, it's intended for rivian owners.

ryzvonusef 1y ago

At this point, just accept electric motorcycles/scooters are a distinct category that you'd like to accept and promote, and get rid of the vestigial pedals. In my country, our govt is promoting e-cycles, and they are about ~ USD 1,000, after being imported from China. They have similar specs to these 'bikes' (range-wise) and I think they are better vehicles, both in price and in utility. https://www.pave.gov.pk/vehicles https://www.pave.gov.pk/vehicles No need to add fake pedals or create a useless 'bike' frame when people are earning for a scooter/motorcycle. Create easier licensing/registration options and you will see adoption rise for the vehicles people truly want.

DanielHB 1y ago
I don't get what you mean, electric scooters are already a thing? At least in most countries in Europe they are classified the same type of vehicle as pedal-assisted e-bicycles and are capped at 25km/h and can ride in the bike lanes. If they go faster they are classified as full motorcycle and have to ride on the road with the cars and requires a license and a license plate (regardless if electric or non-electric). https://dualwheeljourney.com/mopeds/swedish-moped-class-1-and-2-explained/ https://dualwheeljourney.com/mopeds/swedish-moped-class-1-an... > get rid of the vestigial pedals. Pedal-assisted is very much not a vestigial category, plenty of people want to get exercise and not just ride a scooter. On top of that they massively increase the range of the bicycle and the bicycle is still usable when the battery runs out.
simgt 1y ago
I've been annoyed by this as well for a while. I have a non-electric cargo bike but I don't care if others have pedals or not. I'm more scared of a bakfeit mum zooming through at 25km/h than a lightweight Chinese-style moped going slower than that. Regulating who can go where by speed and weight would make much more sense than creating all these arbitrary categories in my opinion.

unwind 1y ago

Oh: I was surprised/saddened that the article mentioned Cake's bankruptcy, so I had to check and it seems the company/assets and a lot of staff was acquired by Norwegian company Brages [1] so it kind of still exists, at least. Not sure if that means they no longer sell in the US, though. [1]: https://ridecake.com/en-SE/the-cake-journey-continues https://ridecake.com/en-SE/the-cake-journey-continues

tim333 1y ago
I had a look and > Good enough to make me think the $9,000 / €9,000 starting price isn’t as crazy as I first thought. I think there may be a limited market at the higher price points given you can get a pretty good ebike for a fraction of that.
- impossiblefork 1y ago
  A bunch of them have Öhlins suspensions, so it's obviously a special market.

bjourne 1y ago

This is obvious marketing spam. Not hn worthy imo.

buenzlikoder 1y ago

Related: Car companies have been screwing up e-bikes for longer than you think https://electrek.co/2024/04/02/car-companies-have-been-screwing-up-e-bikes-for-longer-than-you-think/ https://electrek.co/2024/04/02/car-companies-have-been-screw...

tromp 1y ago

A french company is developing similar technology called PERS (pedaling energy recovery system) [1] that is actually chainless. This comparison [2] claims an overall efficiency of around 64%, with both generator and motor losing about 20% each. They were interviewed by the Laidback bike report [3]. [1] https://www.cixi.life/pers-technology https://www.cixi.life/pers-technology [2] https://www.ebike24.com/blog/chainless-ebikes https://www.ebike24.com/blog/chainless-ebikes [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyGDZw3VPlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyGDZw3VPlI

dingdingdang 1y ago

I think someone is missing a massive marketing/product-improvement opportunity by not selling a scaffold for the bike to allow it to be used as an exercise bike - this is turn would make significant savings on people's electricity budget .. then suddenly the direct-to-battery pedal arrangement would go from weakness to proper feature! #feelfreetocontactmewithmonetaryreward

eeasss 1y ago

Climate change is tailwind for e-bikes. What we need is better infrastructure accross and muscle memory to use them. If only politicians would invest more in infrastructure... (speaking from Southern EU perspective)

trollbridge 1y ago
Here in the USA, there are bike lanes and dedicated bike trails everywhere and a great deal of ebike adoption. The problem is that regulatory frameworks haven’t caught up and public sentiment is becoming quite negative when yet another brutal accident happens.

temperceve 1y ago

Weird !

sotix 1y ago

So if people don't like this, does anyone have a recommendation for a good, class 1 (pedal assist only) bike?

h14h 1y ago

IMO a huge missed opportunity for these indirect-drive bikes is marketing them as a home exercise bike 2-in-1. If the pedals are going into a generator with fancy software to emulate the feel of a bike, there's nothing stopping the bike from going into "stationary mode" and acting as an exercise bike. This thing even had a screen on it, so you could do workouts like a peloton. Then there's the storage aspect -- many people already have (or want) to allocate space to an exercise bike. It would pretty compelling that was also the parking space for your bike-bike. Then there's the added benefit that your workout is charging the battery. Imagine biking to a park on low charge, doing a stationary workout, and then having enough battery left to bike home with full assist.

bognition 1y ago
Its an interesting idea and the engineer in my agrees with you. Then the product skeptic says that anyone who wants to ride a bike as a form of exercise and get around using a bike, would probably just ride a normal bike.
- almostgotcaught 1y ago
  Yup the venn diagram of people who buy an electric bike (ie don't want to work hard to push pedals) and people who want an exercise bike (where the only thing going on is pedal pushing, no moving) has exactly one person in the center piece: op.
  - trenchpilgrim 1y ago
    I own both! I use my ebike for shopping and visiting my parents who live on a steep hill near the base of a mountain range. And I have an exercise bike in my office to stretch my legs in the winter.
- h14h 1y ago
  I think it's an incredibly common use case in places where biking is the default transit mode. I like biking for exercise, but I don't necessarily want to be a sweaty mess after my commute for work, or when lugging my kids around, or when getting groceries.

plasticchris 1y ago

People talking about efficiency are missing the point - the pedals are only there so it gets classified as an e-bike and not an electric motorcycle (so no license required, registration, taxes, can drive in the bike lane) and doesn’t have the jerky handling of an e-bike with the wheels mechanically linked to the pedals. They never really intend for you to turn the pedals. It is a regulatory thing.

WhereIsTheTruth 1y ago

> $4,500 Haha. https://www.himobikes.com/ https://www.himobikes.com/

fattybob 1y ago

It looks good and has many soold features that meet most needs, but seriously lacking the simplest mud guard prediction that almost all no sport bikes need