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The top end of H1B has been great for America. In the last few decades, there has been growth of abuse of the program to get mid level talent at below market r

The top end of H1B has been great for America. In the last few decades, there has been growth of abuse of the program to get mid level talent at below market rates which really hurts the middle class in America. People need to understand that most reformists don't want to get rid of the truly exceptional immigration to the US. We need to limit the volume, especially the immigrants that are directly competing with a hollowed out middle class in the US. Let me know if you want further reading on this topic.

RealityVoid 1y ago
I am skeptical that _that_ is what's hollowing the middle class in America, it's equally easy to point to income inequality for this. But you have your story you believe, I'm resigned that the die are already cast. It's kind of sad to see the accelerated downfall of your country.
- vntok 1y ago
  > But you have your story you believe, I'm resigned that the die are already cast. But that is your story you believe, consider that the parent commenter has the exact same (mirrored) mindset. A useful segue to avoid you or them "being resigned": given that you say you're "skeptical", what would be the minimal proof you'd consider valid for you to change your mind?
  - RealityVoid 1y ago
    The discussion is already dead, there's no point trying to convince anyone because the discussion is politicized and the current admin doesn't care about petty things like reality. Whoever is right won't matter in this stage, it matters who's saying it. I might be wrong, fully willing to cede the point, but this whole thing going on is more than _just this point_.
- glitchc 1y ago
  [flagged]
- jpadkins 1y ago
  It's not the only reason, but it's one of the likely causes. Like most complex issues, it's multi-casual. You can't import 100k+ workers per year into a country and have no effect on wages! I understand the net economic impact is potentially positive, but I am speaking to the direct economic impact of the workers being displaced.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    Just to add, we are also offshoring 300k jobs every year. This makes the impact even larger.
- jpadkins 1y ago
  > it's equally easy to point to income inequality for this Have you ever considered what causes income inequality? Maybe policy that favors globalist, ownership class over salaried workers? H1B in it's current form favors owners/managers over workers! We are saying the same thing. We have to analyze the causes of income inequality in order to solve it. I will leave you with one last thought: the states with the lowest gini co-efficient are the ones that have been more conservative over time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... policy matters!
  - selimthegrim 1y ago
    I am writing you from one of the two red Southern ones that is a glaring counterexample.
    - 3cKU 1y ago
      "the states with the lowest gini co-efficient are the ones that are the least diverse" seems a better fit.
      - mlrtime 1y ago
        Diversity is just a statistic, it's neither good or bad in either direction.
        ThunderSizzle 1y ago
        Not all forms of diversity is strength. Mixing a wolf with a bunch of sheep isn't diversity, it's dinner time.
        defrost 1y ago
        Racial purity ain't all it's heil'd up to be either: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-38571-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-38571-1 https://www.newscientist.com/article/2342731-neanderthal-family-life-revealed-by-ancient-dna-from-siberian-cave/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2342731-neanderthal-fam... Have a barbie, find some middle ground: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGdj1TwBU1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGdj1TwBU1w
- giantg2 1y ago
  "it's equally easy to point to income inequality for this." Of course - they're connected. Taking advantage of labor is a big part of income inequality, including the way H1B is used/abused.
deleted 1y ago
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jb1991 1y ago
This is exactly correct. The H1B visa has not lived up to its original premise in quite some time. A very significant percentage of people who are now working on these visas are not offering anything beyond what is already available within the American workforce, except for lower compensation.
- abletonlive 1y ago
  I’ve never worked with an H1B software engineer from India that was anything but mediocre. I know they exist and my sample size isn’t huge but at least 3-4 of the H1Bs I’ve directly worked with in the past decade were completely unnecessary and could have been filled by a US citizen
  - gorbachev 1y ago
    A very large majority of all software engineers are mediocore or at least not exceptional. I've worked with some extraordinary H1B sw engineers. I would say the ratio of great to mediocore is about the same as for non-H1B sw engineers.
    - kelnos 1y ago
      I think perhaps part of the point being made is that the ratio should not be the same. We should be bringing in higher-than-average and exceptional talent via these visas. If we're just mirroring the skills and talent level of the native workforce, we should be drawing from the native workforce. I don't buy the argument that there's a big shortage of talent for these jobs in the US, especially in a job market like there is right now. Having said that, I do know quite a few people who have been in the US on H-1B visas, and many of them are exceptionally skilled. I think those are the kinds of people we should be granting H-1B visas. I also know quite a few H-1B holders who I wouldn't ever want to work with again, and there are too many people in that group. Not saying there aren't plenty of US citizens I wouldn't want to work with ever again, but that's a separate issue.
    - paulryanrogers 1y ago
      But isn't the point of H1B to bring in exceptional talent? Not create indentured servants of foreign workers?
K0balt 1y ago
Idk what visa program was is under, but home depot used to bring in immigrants to run their stores (stockers , cashiers, etc ) under a program that meant that some contractor was putting 12 people in a 3 bedroom apartment and charging them big fees to come work for minimum wage. This was a while ago, but I was in the rental business and got to see it first hand and talk to the workers. It was extremely exploitative. 5 years ago they were still doing it my hometown, I haven’t checked since. It was mostly Eastern Europeans.
- shagie 1y ago
  The H-1B requires that the position requires a specialization. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/h-1b-specialty-occupations https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/h-1b-spec... The occupation requires: Theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge; and Attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in a directly related* specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States. The position must also meet one of the following criteria to qualify as a specialty occupation: A U.S. bachelor’s or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty, or its equivalent, is normally the minimum entry requirement for the particular occupation; A U.S. bachelor’s or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty, or its equivalent, is normally required to perform job duties in parallel positions among similar organizations in the employer’s industry in the United States; The employer, or third party if the beneficiary will be staffed to that third party, normally requires a U.S. bachelor’s or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty, or its equivalent, to perform the job duties of the position; or The specific duties of the offered position are so specialized, complex, or unique that the knowledge required to perform them is normally associated with the attainment of a U.S. bachelor’s or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty, or its equivalent.* The positions that you're describing do not meet the criteria for the H-1B. If it was under the H-1B, then it should have been reported for fraud. Chances are this was done as a seasonal H-2B non-agricultural worker (likely under a seasonal need) https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/h-2b-temporary-non-agricultural-workers https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary... To qualify for H-2B nonimmigrant classification, the petitioner must establish that: There are not enough U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available to do the temporary work. Employing H-2B workers will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers. When you see fraud, report it. https://www.uscis.gov/report-fraud/uscis-tip-form https://www.uscis.gov/report-fraud/uscis-tip-form
legitster 1y ago
The median pay of an H1B visa holder is $118k. The 25th percentile is $90k. This is from the government's official data: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/OLA_Signed_H-1B_Characteristics_Congressional_Report_FY2023.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/O... Any suggestion that the program is dragging wages down instead of dragging wages up is not just misleading but factually wrong.
- spwa4 1y ago
  Haven't you heard how cheating that works? This is what was filled in on the H1B applications. The government doesn't check that, and so companies don't pay. Second, Indians have to pay their bosses to get a job. Their real pay is at least $20k lower. And there's far worse as well.
  - mikestorrent 1y ago
    Do you have any articles or anything on the latter? I had not heard of that.
    - spwa4 1y ago
      Easy to find: https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage-theft-in-the-h-1b-program/ https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage... https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/ https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pr... https://www.aila.org/ice-it-company-pleads-guilty-h-1b-visa-fraud https://www.aila.org/ice-it-company-pleads-guilty-h-1b-visa-... https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-to-recognize-and-report-cases-of-h-1b-fraud-or-abuse-by-employer.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-to-recognize-and...
- foota 1y ago
  What's the median pay of big tech workers? I started at 150k 8 years ago as a new grad, for comparison.
  - 1y ago
Calc13 1y ago
Agreed, however the top end usually comes to US to do masters and then tries to get job using H1B. If this is where to be instated in this form, it almost precludes any fresh college graduates from getting a shot at this.
- aianus 1y ago
  $100k signing bonus and $150k salary was normal for fresh grads back in 2014, pretty sure big tech can afford this no problem for actual talent.
  - whatever1 1y ago
    The big tech companies have the financial means to invest in anything. They are essentially printing money. However, which startup can afford an additional cost of 100,000 dollars for a fresh PhD graduate who is essential for their niche? The true economic benefit of the H1B visa program for the US economy lies in the long tail of smaller firms that require a limited number of specialized personnel, which, by definition, is scarce.
    - trollbridge 1y ago
      A PhD holder should be coming in under O-1.
      - whatever1 1y ago
        A PhD comes as a student with F1 student visa that expires the day of their graduation. O1 is unlikely to be granted to a student who has not graduated yet. What are they going to show for evidence? Manuscripts in preparation? Or class grades?
        bigfatkitten 1y ago
        How many businesses have ever found a fresh graduate to be provably essential?
deleted 1y ago
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joseangel_sc 1y ago
this comment is at best wrong, and at worst, purposely misleading
thatfrenchguy 1y ago
> mid level talent at below market rates which really hurts the middle class in America What is "mid level talent" though? you're not getting that data from H1B wage filings, they're factually under-reporting compensation.
roughly 1y ago
The hollowing out of the middle class in the US isn't because of immigrants, it's because of a sustained campaign by capital to reduce the power of labor over the last 50-odd years and to concentrate wealth as best they can. Immigrant labor contributes to that because we've got inadequate labor protections and because we bought into the idea that lower consumer prices was a fine reason to ignore both labor and antitrust.
- giantg2 1y ago
  "The hollowing out of the middle class in the US isn't because of immigrants, it's because of a sustained campaign by capital to reduce the power of labor over the last 50-odd years and to concentrate wealth as best they can." Creating low cost alternatives and taking advance of lax laws is part of that. If you can import 100k skilled workers per year under a scheme that gives you more power over them. Then you also offshore 300k jobs per year to countries with weaker protections. It's always baffled me how the same candidates that claim to be pro labor and pro environment are also pro globalization. The way it plays out is that the jobs are just offshore to jurisdictions that lack the same labor and environmental protections.
  - sahila 1y ago
    > It's always baffled me how the same candidates that claim to be pro labor and pro environment are also pro globalization. The way it plays out is that the jobs are just offshore to jurisdictions that lack the same labor and environmental protections. Why's that? The jobs and lives of individuals in those countries are better than the alternatives present otherwise to them. Globalization may hurt certain America jobs but certainly countries like India is grateful for all of the engineering roles. High consumerism is harmful to the environment but I don't think the link between offshoring jobs is direct to environmental harms and certainly it's helpful to giving more job opportunites.
    - sokoloff 1y ago
      I'm very much free trade and pro-globalization, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a candidate for political office in country X should be most concerned about the overall welfare of the citizens of country X, then next for the non-citizen residents of country X, then non-citizen/non-residents last. We can argue how steep the dropoff should be, but I think most people would believe that the ordering is that one, with some possible ties.
valkmit 1y ago
How valid is this premise in an increasingly global world? Most of the companies that are paying salaries could (and already do!) have offices in other jurisdictions where they could hire the same talent. Better to bring this talent onshore, where the wages are taxed, than force these companies to hire from satellite offices? It doesn't make much financial sense for companies to stop sourcing talent globally just because they can't be brought onshore, especially given enough time. Purely anecdotal, but for me personally this wouldn't change who or how I hire, just the location.
- tottenhm 1y ago
  Same basic question -- at the price of $100k/ea, it does seem cheaper to build-out more satellite offices. But there's a parallel push around taxing American firms using foreign labor (https://www.moreno.senate.gov/press-releases/new-moreno-bill-would-crack-down-on-outsourcing-fund-american-workers/ https://www.moreno.senate.gov/press-releases/new-moreno-bill...). If multiple new policies are put in place at the same time, then... I dunno... it seems harder to predict...
  - valkmit 1y ago
    This seems virtually impossible to enforce. It's trivial to restructure hiring a developer to write software, as licensing software from a foreign development firm, or any number of other workarounds. This is not just a hypothetical, this is something that already happens when companies are looking to optimize their tax burden. Corporate structuring and income shifting are big businesses in their own right and serve to find the minimum amount of changes required to be able to legally reclassify income. In the case of this bill specifically, in the unlikely even it passes, a simple corporate inversion will solve this problem. Instead of the US company owning foreign subsidiaries, the structure is inverted: the parent company becomes foreign, which will own a domestic US corporation. When the multinational wants to hire or retain offshore talent, it simply pays out from the parent company. Again these aren't hypotheticals, these are real tax avoidance strategies that are already in place and are well-trodden paths. You can come up with an infinite amount of regulation to try to halt this (this problem is also called tax base erosion) but it ends up doing more harm than good - eventually you end up with a tax code and regulatory environment so complex that that alone disincentivizes new investment. The goal is not just to retain existing capital and talent by forcing them to be locked in - it's to compete for the next dollar, the next startup, the next factory - new investment will follow the path of least resistance, while older companies eventually close up shop due to one reason or another. If your worldview is one of "We already have the best capital and talent, so we don't need to bother to compete to acquire new capital and talent", the world you live in will stagnate and wither with respect to societies that will bend over backwards for this.
trollbridge 1y ago
Exceptional migrants can still qualify under O-1, which hasn’t really changed at all. Most tech startup founders can qualify for O-1, unless your startup is really pointless.
tw04 1y ago
> People need to understand that most reformists don't want to get rid of the truly exceptional immigration to the US. And how are “they” planning on determining who is “truly exceptional”? And what makes you think the “truly exceptional” ones are still going to have any interest in coming here when they see what happens to the people who the current regime deems “not exceptional”? I sure as hell wouldn’t come to the US knowing I may be deported to a third world prison if I post the wrong thing online.
- xp84 1y ago
  I don't think there's an H1B category for online political edgelords anyway -- we have enough of those already on both sides of the political spectrum, so I don't think anyone cares if that type of person is afraid to come here. If anything, maybe it's better to have less of that kind of thing so we can focus on getting things done instead of political partisanship?
- deleted 1y ago
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- jwblock 1y ago
  I don't think you need to define 'truly exceptional.' You just need to put in a limit and the scarcity will force the slots to go to the best and rarest talent. I'm all for bringing the truly best and brightest to the US. I'm not for replacing large swaths of the domestic labor force with an imported lower price equivalent.
- carlosjobim 1y ago
  > And how are “they” planning on determining who is “truly exceptional”? For example by implementing a $100 000 fee for their H-1B visas, which ensures that companies will only use those visas to contract truly exceptional talent. That's a very small price to pay for a company to be able to hire a person who is among the greatest in the world in her field.
- Nasrudith 1y ago
  Given this administration? Truly exceptional are the ones who pay personal bribes.
harbingerofdoom 1y ago
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ajross 1y ago
> In the last few decades, there has been growth of abuse of the program to get mid level talent at below market rates which really hurts the middle class in America. That's a weird definition for "middle class", there are only 65k H1b visas issued every year. If you really are talking about the middle 60% or whatever of all workers, immigrants on H1b's are irrelevant noise. At most, these visas might be seen to impact specific professions (tech in particular, lots of doctors too) that most people don't consider representative of the "middle class".
charliea0 1y ago
We should just set a number of H1Bs and auction them off.
deleted 1y ago
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beowulfey 1y ago
With that in mind, would you say the administration is going about this the right way? Because this is going to hurt all H1B candidates, not just the "middle".
felineflock 1y ago
Please share the articles you have about the matter.
keeda 1y ago
Looking at it solely from a perspective of competition between labor glosses over the fact that insufficient labor is also bad for the economy because it keeps companies from growing and hiring more people. So sure, while the fewer jobs that they can fill could have higher wages (not a given, because lack of labor can stunt or kill companies) there could be much fewer people employed overall, which is clearly bad overall. Of course, that assumes there is enough room for companies to grow. There are strong indications (e.g. the various labor and unemployment surveys) that this is the case in the US. In fact, there is a credible theory that the reason the US managed the inflation crisis so well was due to the immigration crisis. I elaborated more (along with a couple of relevant studies) here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45308311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45308311
andirk 1y ago
I have worked with software people on H1B visas who's #1 goal was to hire more [specific nationality] and thin out the rest. Their work ethic was a top-down rule by fear, and their code was VERY bad. Made my life straight up worse. One example of abusing the H1B visa system. I have also worked with amazing H1B visa people. Just make sure they're actually talented.
- ulfw 1y ago
  Funny you're in so much fear of repercussions that you don't even dare to say which nationality and yet most people in tech know which one you meant
hiddencost 1y ago
Honestly: a lie. One you chose because it appealed to you, and then constructed a narrative to support it. We could easily afford to have a middle class in this country if we distributed wealth differently, and more immigrants would help us do it.
hshdhdhj4444 1y ago
The hollowed out middle class is surely because of the class of jobs that have been growing the fastest, seeing the highest salaries and salary growths, and have been the best jobs in America for 2 decades. It’s not because of the other jobs which the H1Bs aren’t even allowed to do abd have seen falling salaries and degrowth.
ambicapter 1y ago
I would like further reading on this topic.
jitix 1y ago
Agree with mid level talent part, not the middle class part. H1B holders by large don't hold typical "middle class" jobs like accountants, office admins, marketing, sales, teachers, etc: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/11/jobs-with-the-largest-shares-of-middle-class-earners.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/11/jobs-with-the-largest-shares... Can you please share your reading material that links H1B software engineers with decline in middle class jobs from this list?
ivell 1y ago
I think one unintended outcome of this would be that the jobs would be completely outsourced to outside of US. The ones remaining would be government contracts that have provisions against it. The government could add tariffs on services, but we need to see if that just moves the companies outside of US or not. Capitalism in a democracy is hard to control.
rtpg 1y ago
Or you could stop tying H-1Bs to employers, meaning that there's less incentive to do the work to bring "mid level talent" in at below market rates, because those people would immediately find a job at market rates. There's a straightforward solution here. Right now H-1Bs are a way for companies to lock in employees by leveraging the visa status.
- tomp 1y ago
  The problem with your solution (and similar solutions - e.g. implementing "salary auction" for H1B - i.e. it's not a lottery, but it's that the most paid get the visa) is: It requires changing the law. Which is very difficult, and requires a broad coalition in 2 houses of parliament. On the other hand, executive orders are very easy. I wish the better solutions get implemented, but until they are, we have to seek alternatives.
  - rtpg 1y ago
    > Which is very difficult, and requires a broad coalition in 2 houses of parliament. In the current moment the same party controls all three branches of government. There's a more basic reality that the idea I'm mentioning simply wouldn't be popular. I just think that people talk about market forces in these discussions and the lock-in effect is so clearly something that's affecting the market, yet not mentioned nearly enough IMO.
rob74 1y ago
I suspect that in the case of tech companies, the end result of this won't be more jobs going to Americans, it will be either remote workers in low wage countries or outsourcing to low wage countries. Which, in the long term, might lead to fewer tech jobs in the US overall. Still, I can't help but feel a little bit of glee at all the tech companies who did their best to suck up to Trump, and now he stabs them in the back.
quantumgarbage 1y ago
Sure, show us the numbers you got from your "further readings". Plenty of peeps are being much more factual below, compared to the gvt linguo that you are just rehashing rn
EliRivers 1y ago
People need to understand that most reformists don't want to get rid of the truly exceptional immigration to the US. What do the most influential reformists want? The ones who set the extreme agenda that everyone else follows? As I understand it, right now the US is routinely enacting policies that the majority of citizens do not want; from this, could we surmise that the majority of people, and presumably thus the majority of reformists, will receive the extreme H1B policies that they don't want?
regularjack 1y ago
Is there any data that supports these statements? Specifically that the program is abused and that it "hurts" the middle class.
MrMan 1y ago
[dead]
dumbfounder 1y ago
Are we saying software engineers making $125-150k are middle class? If so, then yes this I absolutely believe this is true. These will still be high level people for the most part that will up our game in my opinion. Thats in the opinion column, hard to prove. But this fee may have a net negative impact on jobs for Americans as it will push more companies to simply outsource to these countries rather than pay more in the US. So you need to tax that too. And then they will find some way around that and we will need to tax that new thing. I don’t like this game, it is trying to stop progress in my opinion. But I guess it is a balancing act and who knows where you set the line. Adding friction to it will definitely make it so only higher quality talent migrates here, that much seems clear.
- ProllyInfamous 1y ago
  >$125-150k are middle class? I would think healthily so, even if on the upper bands [0]. I personally see "middle class" solidly as $50k-150k household income (2 adults 1 kid)... but I live in the South. Two decades ago I lived in the bay area for less than $100k (electrician)... and that was regionally closer to the lower end of "middle class," even out in Hayward. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_Sta...
glutee 1y ago
Agree with the abuse part. Question is - is this the right way to fix the problem? A half baked executive order that raises more questions than answers for the existing H1B visa holders.
Salgat 1y ago
I imagine for the "best of the best" making $500k+ annually, this is just the cost of business and they're not going anywhere, while for the h1b workers making closer to $100k annually, this is a show stopper.
azernik 1y ago
First it was "we're only against illegal immigration, we want people to do it the right way". Now it's "we need to limit the volume" and "don't want to get rid of the truly exceptional immigration". Forgive me if I am skeptical, especially in a world where ICE is rounding up classic "exceptional" immigrants like biology researchers, or South Korean experts setting up a factory.
snowflakeandrey 1y ago
I thought the top end is supposed to be served via O1 -> EB-1A -> Citizenship pipeline?

RealityVoid 1y ago

I am skeptical that _that_ is what's hollowing the middle class in America, it's equally easy to point to income inequality for this. But you have your story you believe, I'm resigned that the die are already cast. It's kind of sad to see the accelerated downfall of your country.

vntok 1y ago
> But you have your story you believe, I'm resigned that the die are already cast. But that is your story you believe, consider that the parent commenter has the exact same (mirrored) mindset. A useful segue to avoid you or them "being resigned": given that you say you're "skeptical", what would be the minimal proof you'd consider valid for you to change your mind?
- RealityVoid 1y ago
  The discussion is already dead, there's no point trying to convince anyone because the discussion is politicized and the current admin doesn't care about petty things like reality. Whoever is right won't matter in this stage, it matters who's saying it. I might be wrong, fully willing to cede the point, but this whole thing going on is more than _just this point_.
glitchc 1y ago
[flagged]
jpadkins 1y ago
It's not the only reason, but it's one of the likely causes. Like most complex issues, it's multi-casual. You can't import 100k+ workers per year into a country and have no effect on wages! I understand the net economic impact is potentially positive, but I am speaking to the direct economic impact of the workers being displaced.
- giantg2 1y ago
  Just to add, we are also offshoring 300k jobs every year. This makes the impact even larger.
jpadkins 1y ago
> it's equally easy to point to income inequality for this Have you ever considered what causes income inequality? Maybe policy that favors globalist, ownership class over salaried workers? H1B in it's current form favors owners/managers over workers! We are saying the same thing. We have to analyze the causes of income inequality in order to solve it. I will leave you with one last thought: the states with the lowest gini co-efficient are the ones that have been more conservative over time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_income_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ... policy matters!
- selimthegrim 1y ago
  I am writing you from one of the two red Southern ones that is a glaring counterexample.
  - 3cKU 1y ago
    "the states with the lowest gini co-efficient are the ones that are the least diverse" seems a better fit.
    - mlrtime 1y ago
      Diversity is just a statistic, it's neither good or bad in either direction.
      - ThunderSizzle 1y ago
        Not all forms of diversity is strength. Mixing a wolf with a bunch of sheep isn't diversity, it's dinner time.
        defrost 1y ago
        Racial purity ain't all it's heil'd up to be either: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-38571-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-38571-1 https://www.newscientist.com/article/2342731-neanderthal-family-life-revealed-by-ancient-dna-from-siberian-cave/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2342731-neanderthal-fam... Have a barbie, find some middle ground: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGdj1TwBU1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGdj1TwBU1w
giantg2 1y ago
"it's equally easy to point to income inequality for this." Of course - they're connected. Taking advantage of labor is a big part of income inequality, including the way H1B is used/abused.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

jb1991 1y ago

This is exactly correct. The H1B visa has not lived up to its original premise in quite some time. A very significant percentage of people who are now working on these visas are not offering anything beyond what is already available within the American workforce, except for lower compensation.

abletonlive 1y ago
I’ve never worked with an H1B software engineer from India that was anything but mediocre. I know they exist and my sample size isn’t huge but at least 3-4 of the H1Bs I’ve directly worked with in the past decade were completely unnecessary and could have been filled by a US citizen
- gorbachev 1y ago
  A very large majority of all software engineers are mediocore or at least not exceptional. I've worked with some extraordinary H1B sw engineers. I would say the ratio of great to mediocore is about the same as for non-H1B sw engineers.
  - kelnos 1y ago
    I think perhaps part of the point being made is that the ratio should not be the same. We should be bringing in higher-than-average and exceptional talent via these visas. If we're just mirroring the skills and talent level of the native workforce, we should be drawing from the native workforce. I don't buy the argument that there's a big shortage of talent for these jobs in the US, especially in a job market like there is right now. Having said that, I do know quite a few people who have been in the US on H-1B visas, and many of them are exceptionally skilled. I think those are the kinds of people we should be granting H-1B visas. I also know quite a few H-1B holders who I wouldn't ever want to work with again, and there are too many people in that group. Not saying there aren't plenty of US citizens I wouldn't want to work with ever again, but that's a separate issue.
  - paulryanrogers 1y ago
    But isn't the point of H1B to bring in exceptional talent? Not create indentured servants of foreign workers?

K0balt 1y ago

Idk what visa program was is under, but home depot used to bring in immigrants to run their stores (stockers , cashiers, etc ) under a program that meant that some contractor was putting 12 people in a 3 bedroom apartment and charging them big fees to come work for minimum wage. This was a while ago, but I was in the rental business and got to see it first hand and talk to the workers. It was extremely exploitative. 5 years ago they were still doing it my hometown, I haven’t checked since. It was mostly Eastern Europeans.

shagie 1y ago
The H-1B requires that the position requires a specialization. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/h-1b-specialty-occupations https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/h-1b-spec... The occupation requires: Theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge; and Attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in a directly related* specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States. The position must also meet one of the following criteria to qualify as a specialty occupation: A U.S. bachelor’s or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty, or its equivalent, is normally the minimum entry requirement for the particular occupation; A U.S. bachelor’s or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty, or its equivalent, is normally required to perform job duties in parallel positions among similar organizations in the employer’s industry in the United States; The employer, or third party if the beneficiary will be staffed to that third party, normally requires a U.S. bachelor’s or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty, or its equivalent, to perform the job duties of the position; or The specific duties of the offered position are so specialized, complex, or unique that the knowledge required to perform them is normally associated with the attainment of a U.S. bachelor’s or higher degree in a directly related specific specialty, or its equivalent.* The positions that you're describing do not meet the criteria for the H-1B. If it was under the H-1B, then it should have been reported for fraud. Chances are this was done as a seasonal H-2B non-agricultural worker (likely under a seasonal need) https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/h-2b-temporary-non-agricultural-workers https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary... To qualify for H-2B nonimmigrant classification, the petitioner must establish that: There are not enough U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available to do the temporary work. Employing H-2B workers will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers. When you see fraud, report it. https://www.uscis.gov/report-fraud/uscis-tip-form https://www.uscis.gov/report-fraud/uscis-tip-form

legitster 1y ago

The median pay of an H1B visa holder is $118k. The 25th percentile is $90k. This is from the government's official data: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/OLA_Signed_H-1B_Characteristics_Congressional_Report_FY2023.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/O... Any suggestion that the program is dragging wages down instead of dragging wages up is not just misleading but factually wrong.

spwa4 1y ago
Haven't you heard how cheating that works? This is what was filled in on the H1B applications. The government doesn't check that, and so companies don't pay. Second, Indians have to pay their bosses to get a job. Their real pay is at least $20k lower. And there's far worse as well.
- mikestorrent 1y ago
  Do you have any articles or anything on the latter? I had not heard of that.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    Easy to find: https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage-theft-in-the-h-1b-program/ https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage... https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/ https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pr... https://www.aila.org/ice-it-company-pleads-guilty-h-1b-visa-fraud https://www.aila.org/ice-it-company-pleads-guilty-h-1b-visa-... https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-to-recognize-and-report-cases-of-h-1b-fraud-or-abuse-by-employer.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-to-recognize-and...
foota 1y ago
What's the median pay of big tech workers? I started at 150k 8 years ago as a new grad, for comparison.
- 1y ago

Calc13 1y ago

Agreed, however the top end usually comes to US to do masters and then tries to get job using H1B. If this is where to be instated in this form, it almost precludes any fresh college graduates from getting a shot at this.

aianus 1y ago
$100k signing bonus and $150k salary was normal for fresh grads back in 2014, pretty sure big tech can afford this no problem for actual talent.
- whatever1 1y ago
  The big tech companies have the financial means to invest in anything. They are essentially printing money. However, which startup can afford an additional cost of 100,000 dollars for a fresh PhD graduate who is essential for their niche? The true economic benefit of the H1B visa program for the US economy lies in the long tail of smaller firms that require a limited number of specialized personnel, which, by definition, is scarce.
  - trollbridge 1y ago
    A PhD holder should be coming in under O-1.
    - whatever1 1y ago
      A PhD comes as a student with F1 student visa that expires the day of their graduation. O1 is unlikely to be granted to a student who has not graduated yet. What are they going to show for evidence? Manuscripts in preparation? Or class grades?
      - bigfatkitten 1y ago
        How many businesses have ever found a fresh graduate to be provably essential?

deleted 1y ago

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joseangel_sc 1y ago

this comment is at best wrong, and at worst, purposely misleading

thatfrenchguy 1y ago

> mid level talent at below market rates which really hurts the middle class in America What is "mid level talent" though? you're not getting that data from H1B wage filings, they're factually under-reporting compensation.

roughly 1y ago

The hollowing out of the middle class in the US isn't because of immigrants, it's because of a sustained campaign by capital to reduce the power of labor over the last 50-odd years and to concentrate wealth as best they can. Immigrant labor contributes to that because we've got inadequate labor protections and because we bought into the idea that lower consumer prices was a fine reason to ignore both labor and antitrust.

giantg2 1y ago
"The hollowing out of the middle class in the US isn't because of immigrants, it's because of a sustained campaign by capital to reduce the power of labor over the last 50-odd years and to concentrate wealth as best they can." Creating low cost alternatives and taking advance of lax laws is part of that. If you can import 100k skilled workers per year under a scheme that gives you more power over them. Then you also offshore 300k jobs per year to countries with weaker protections. It's always baffled me how the same candidates that claim to be pro labor and pro environment are also pro globalization. The way it plays out is that the jobs are just offshore to jurisdictions that lack the same labor and environmental protections.
- sahila 1y ago
  > It's always baffled me how the same candidates that claim to be pro labor and pro environment are also pro globalization. The way it plays out is that the jobs are just offshore to jurisdictions that lack the same labor and environmental protections. Why's that? The jobs and lives of individuals in those countries are better than the alternatives present otherwise to them. Globalization may hurt certain America jobs but certainly countries like India is grateful for all of the engineering roles. High consumerism is harmful to the environment but I don't think the link between offshoring jobs is direct to environmental harms and certainly it's helpful to giving more job opportunites.
  - sokoloff 1y ago
    I'm very much free trade and pro-globalization, but it seems perfectly reasonable to me that a candidate for political office in country X should be most concerned about the overall welfare of the citizens of country X, then next for the non-citizen residents of country X, then non-citizen/non-residents last. We can argue how steep the dropoff should be, but I think most people would believe that the ordering is that one, with some possible ties.

valkmit 1y ago

How valid is this premise in an increasingly global world? Most of the companies that are paying salaries could (and already do!) have offices in other jurisdictions where they could hire the same talent. Better to bring this talent onshore, where the wages are taxed, than force these companies to hire from satellite offices? It doesn't make much financial sense for companies to stop sourcing talent globally just because they can't be brought onshore, especially given enough time. Purely anecdotal, but for me personally this wouldn't change who or how I hire, just the location.

tottenhm 1y ago
Same basic question -- at the price of $100k/ea, it does seem cheaper to build-out more satellite offices. But there's a parallel push around taxing American firms using foreign labor (https://www.moreno.senate.gov/press-releases/new-moreno-bill-would-crack-down-on-outsourcing-fund-american-workers/ https://www.moreno.senate.gov/press-releases/new-moreno-bill...). If multiple new policies are put in place at the same time, then... I dunno... it seems harder to predict...
- valkmit 1y ago
  This seems virtually impossible to enforce. It's trivial to restructure hiring a developer to write software, as licensing software from a foreign development firm, or any number of other workarounds. This is not just a hypothetical, this is something that already happens when companies are looking to optimize their tax burden. Corporate structuring and income shifting are big businesses in their own right and serve to find the minimum amount of changes required to be able to legally reclassify income. In the case of this bill specifically, in the unlikely even it passes, a simple corporate inversion will solve this problem. Instead of the US company owning foreign subsidiaries, the structure is inverted: the parent company becomes foreign, which will own a domestic US corporation. When the multinational wants to hire or retain offshore talent, it simply pays out from the parent company. Again these aren't hypotheticals, these are real tax avoidance strategies that are already in place and are well-trodden paths. You can come up with an infinite amount of regulation to try to halt this (this problem is also called tax base erosion) but it ends up doing more harm than good - eventually you end up with a tax code and regulatory environment so complex that that alone disincentivizes new investment. The goal is not just to retain existing capital and talent by forcing them to be locked in - it's to compete for the next dollar, the next startup, the next factory - new investment will follow the path of least resistance, while older companies eventually close up shop due to one reason or another. If your worldview is one of "We already have the best capital and talent, so we don't need to bother to compete to acquire new capital and talent", the world you live in will stagnate and wither with respect to societies that will bend over backwards for this.

trollbridge 1y ago

Exceptional migrants can still qualify under O-1, which hasn’t really changed at all. Most tech startup founders can qualify for O-1, unless your startup is really pointless.

tw04 1y ago

> People need to understand that most reformists don't want to get rid of the truly exceptional immigration to the US. And how are “they” planning on determining who is “truly exceptional”? And what makes you think the “truly exceptional” ones are still going to have any interest in coming here when they see what happens to the people who the current regime deems “not exceptional”? I sure as hell wouldn’t come to the US knowing I may be deported to a third world prison if I post the wrong thing online.

xp84 1y ago
I don't think there's an H1B category for online political edgelords anyway -- we have enough of those already on both sides of the political spectrum, so I don't think anyone cares if that type of person is afraid to come here. If anything, maybe it's better to have less of that kind of thing so we can focus on getting things done instead of political partisanship?
deleted 1y ago
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jwblock 1y ago
I don't think you need to define 'truly exceptional.' You just need to put in a limit and the scarcity will force the slots to go to the best and rarest talent. I'm all for bringing the truly best and brightest to the US. I'm not for replacing large swaths of the domestic labor force with an imported lower price equivalent.
carlosjobim 1y ago
> And how are “they” planning on determining who is “truly exceptional”? For example by implementing a $100 000 fee for their H-1B visas, which ensures that companies will only use those visas to contract truly exceptional talent. That's a very small price to pay for a company to be able to hire a person who is among the greatest in the world in her field.
Nasrudith 1y ago
Given this administration? Truly exceptional are the ones who pay personal bribes.

harbingerofdoom 1y ago

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ajross 1y ago

> In the last few decades, there has been growth of abuse of the program to get mid level talent at below market rates which really hurts the middle class in America. That's a weird definition for "middle class", there are only 65k H1b visas issued every year. If you really are talking about the middle 60% or whatever of all workers, immigrants on H1b's are irrelevant noise. At most, these visas might be seen to impact specific professions (tech in particular, lots of doctors too) that most people don't consider representative of the "middle class".

charliea0 1y ago

We should just set a number of H1Bs and auction them off.

deleted 1y ago

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beowulfey 1y ago

With that in mind, would you say the administration is going about this the right way? Because this is going to hurt all H1B candidates, not just the "middle".

felineflock 1y ago

Please share the articles you have about the matter.

keeda 1y ago

Looking at it solely from a perspective of competition between labor glosses over the fact that insufficient labor is also bad for the economy because it keeps companies from growing and hiring more people. So sure, while the fewer jobs that they can fill could have higher wages (not a given, because lack of labor can stunt or kill companies) there could be much fewer people employed overall, which is clearly bad overall. Of course, that assumes there is enough room for companies to grow. There are strong indications (e.g. the various labor and unemployment surveys) that this is the case in the US. In fact, there is a credible theory that the reason the US managed the inflation crisis so well was due to the immigration crisis. I elaborated more (along with a couple of relevant studies) here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45308311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45308311

andirk 1y ago

I have worked with software people on H1B visas who's #1 goal was to hire more [specific nationality] and thin out the rest. Their work ethic was a top-down rule by fear, and their code was VERY bad. Made my life straight up worse. One example of abusing the H1B visa system. I have also worked with amazing H1B visa people. Just make sure they're actually talented.

ulfw 1y ago
Funny you're in so much fear of repercussions that you don't even dare to say which nationality and yet most people in tech know which one you meant

hiddencost 1y ago

Honestly: a lie. One you chose because it appealed to you, and then constructed a narrative to support it. We could easily afford to have a middle class in this country if we distributed wealth differently, and more immigrants would help us do it.

hshdhdhj4444 1y ago

The hollowed out middle class is surely because of the class of jobs that have been growing the fastest, seeing the highest salaries and salary growths, and have been the best jobs in America for 2 decades. It’s not because of the other jobs which the H1Bs aren’t even allowed to do abd have seen falling salaries and degrowth.

ambicapter 1y ago

I would like further reading on this topic.

jitix 1y ago

Agree with mid level talent part, not the middle class part. H1B holders by large don't hold typical "middle class" jobs like accountants, office admins, marketing, sales, teachers, etc: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/11/jobs-with-the-largest-shares-of-middle-class-earners.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/11/jobs-with-the-largest-shares... Can you please share your reading material that links H1B software engineers with decline in middle class jobs from this list?

ivell 1y ago

I think one unintended outcome of this would be that the jobs would be completely outsourced to outside of US. The ones remaining would be government contracts that have provisions against it. The government could add tariffs on services, but we need to see if that just moves the companies outside of US or not. Capitalism in a democracy is hard to control.

rtpg 1y ago

Or you could stop tying H-1Bs to employers, meaning that there's less incentive to do the work to bring "mid level talent" in at below market rates, because those people would immediately find a job at market rates. There's a straightforward solution here. Right now H-1Bs are a way for companies to lock in employees by leveraging the visa status.

tomp 1y ago
The problem with your solution (and similar solutions - e.g. implementing "salary auction" for H1B - i.e. it's not a lottery, but it's that the most paid get the visa) is: It requires changing the law. Which is very difficult, and requires a broad coalition in 2 houses of parliament. On the other hand, executive orders are very easy. I wish the better solutions get implemented, but until they are, we have to seek alternatives.
- rtpg 1y ago
  > Which is very difficult, and requires a broad coalition in 2 houses of parliament. In the current moment the same party controls all three branches of government. There's a more basic reality that the idea I'm mentioning simply wouldn't be popular. I just think that people talk about market forces in these discussions and the lock-in effect is so clearly something that's affecting the market, yet not mentioned nearly enough IMO.

rob74 1y ago

I suspect that in the case of tech companies, the end result of this won't be more jobs going to Americans, it will be either remote workers in low wage countries or outsourcing to low wage countries. Which, in the long term, might lead to fewer tech jobs in the US overall. Still, I can't help but feel a little bit of glee at all the tech companies who did their best to suck up to Trump, and now he stabs them in the back.

quantumgarbage 1y ago

Sure, show us the numbers you got from your "further readings". Plenty of peeps are being much more factual below, compared to the gvt linguo that you are just rehashing rn

EliRivers 1y ago

People need to understand that most reformists don't want to get rid of the truly exceptional immigration to the US. What do the most influential reformists want? The ones who set the extreme agenda that everyone else follows? As I understand it, right now the US is routinely enacting policies that the majority of citizens do not want; from this, could we surmise that the majority of people, and presumably thus the majority of reformists, will receive the extreme H1B policies that they don't want?

regularjack 1y ago

Is there any data that supports these statements? Specifically that the program is abused and that it "hurts" the middle class.

MrMan 1y ago

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dumbfounder 1y ago

Are we saying software engineers making $125-150k are middle class? If so, then yes this I absolutely believe this is true. These will still be high level people for the most part that will up our game in my opinion. Thats in the opinion column, hard to prove. But this fee may have a net negative impact on jobs for Americans as it will push more companies to simply outsource to these countries rather than pay more in the US. So you need to tax that too. And then they will find some way around that and we will need to tax that new thing. I don’t like this game, it is trying to stop progress in my opinion. But I guess it is a balancing act and who knows where you set the line. Adding friction to it will definitely make it so only higher quality talent migrates here, that much seems clear.

ProllyInfamous 1y ago
>$125-150k are middle class? I would think healthily so, even if on the upper bands [0]. I personally see "middle class" solidly as $50k-150k household income (2 adults 1 kid)... but I live in the South. Two decades ago I lived in the bay area for less than $100k (electrician)... and that was regionally closer to the lower end of "middle class," even out in Hayward. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_Sta...

glutee 1y ago

Agree with the abuse part. Question is - is this the right way to fix the problem? A half baked executive order that raises more questions than answers for the existing H1B visa holders.

Salgat 1y ago

I imagine for the "best of the best" making $500k+ annually, this is just the cost of business and they're not going anywhere, while for the h1b workers making closer to $100k annually, this is a show stopper.

azernik 1y ago

First it was "we're only against illegal immigration, we want people to do it the right way". Now it's "we need to limit the volume" and "don't want to get rid of the truly exceptional immigration". Forgive me if I am skeptical, especially in a world where ICE is rounding up classic "exceptional" immigrants like biology researchers, or South Korean experts setting up a factory.

snowflakeandrey 1y ago

I thought the top end is supposed to be served via O1 -> EB-1A -> Citizenship pipeline?