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Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

• Der_Einzige 1y ago
  [flagged]
  • toomuchtodo 1y ago
    Regardless of H1Bs who received better grades, I don't think US workers should have to compete with 1 billion+ other global workers for their jobs. Citizens make the rules via governance, not corporations. You can hire someone good enough domestically vs the best globally to import. US corporations simply want the cheapest labor possible at the best possible price, which is where policy steps in. If it impairs your profits or perhaps even makes the business untenable, them the breaks. At current US unemployment rates, no new H1B visas should be issued and existing visas should not be renewed based on criteria. If you're exceptional, prove it on an O-1 visa. H-1B Middlemen Bring Cheap Labor to Citi, Capital One - https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-h1b-visa-middlemen-cheap-labor-for-us-banks/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-h1b-visa-middlemen-c... | https://archive.today/7JX9A https://archive.today/7JX9A - June 27th, 2025 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42454509 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42454509 (citations) https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-with-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary... HN Search: h1b - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=H1b&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... https://h1bdata.info/ https://h1bdata.info/ https://www.h1bsalaries.fyi/ https://www.h1bsalaries.fyi/
    • sagarm 1y ago
      The best jobs are with large corporations with offices all over the world. Workers from all over the world are competing with each other, regardless of the Kafkaesque state of American immigrant policy.
      • toomuchtodo 1y ago
        Ohio senator introduces 25% tax on companies that outsource jobs overseas - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45146528 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45146528 - September 2025 https://www.moreno.senate.gov/press-releases/new-moreno-bill-would-crack-down-on-outsourcing-fund-american-workers/ https://www.moreno.senate.gov/press-releases/new-moreno-bill... https://www.moreno.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/The-HIRE-Act.pdf https://www.moreno.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/The... (if you're a company with no US nexus or presence, and no access to the market, your hiring practices are up to your local jurisdiction; if you want access to the US market, you can hire in the US, I find this to be very reasonable)
        • JumpCrisscross 1y ago
          This bill is a hunk of Swiss cheese. Great for lawyers and bankers and possibly global tech companies, depending on how it parses out in court.
          • toomuchtodo 1y ago
            I'm willing to walk before running. Have to start somewhere.
            • JumpCrisscross 1y ago
              > willing to walk before running. Have to start somewhere It doesn’t walk anywhere. It’s another handout to finance and law. The B2B carve-out and lack of border adjustments makes this a regressive tax on consumers and manufacturers to fund tech, law and finance. (The only jobs this would materially cover are those in call centres for consumers. Which in practice, means voice LLMs.) Like, I made money from tariffs. I will do well from the OBBA. I will do well from this bill. But American consumers and workers will keep getting screwed, and I’m not sure how this playbook keeps working.
              • lovich 1y ago
    • ThrowawayR2 1y ago
      The US has been there, done that, and got the t-shirt. The result of trying to wall out competition is not going to be jobs for Americans. The result will be what happened to the American automotive industry, the American electronics industry, etc. They could not deliver competitive products at competitive prices and the various "Buy American" advertising campaigns were ignored by American consumers. Your Nintendo Switch, your Samsung SSDs and smartphones, your Hynix RAM, your Toyota cars, etc. are all proof of that. And it's much, much easier to for a competitor to create a new developer job opening overseas than construct a physical factory.
      • _DeadFred_ 1y ago
        If either way I'm homeless, I'd at least rather have a chance at having the job rather than have my own government work against me.
      • ux266478 1y ago
        This doesn't holds water as an argument against labor protectionism, since we can point to China as a contemporary example with the opposite result. Much of the US's industrial base wasn't destroyed by consumer choice, but was intentionally moved abroad for geopolitical reasons. It wasn't even simply about implementing an economic power structure the US could use to extend its influence. The Asian Tigers were built up to facilitate more powerful "strategic partners", a South Korea poorer than Gambia wouldn't be a very useful friend. That Samsung SSD is the product of a need for strategic power balancing in East Asia. The consumer doesn't matter nearly as much as you think they do when policy is the primary agent that shapes cost, often intentionally through second order effects like infrastructural design.
        • slt2021 1y ago
          >>intentionally moved abroad for geopolitical reasons not geopolitical, but economical. US corporations ran labor arbitrage by shipping $20/hr jobs to China that was paid ~$0.20/hr and pocketed profits (you can lookup S&P 500 chart) USA got S&P500 chart going up China got industrialization
    • SilverElfin 1y ago
      > I don't think US workers should have to compete with 1 billion+ other global workers for their jobs. They already do though. Do you own any items made in other countries? If so, you’re competing with other workers already. It seems weird to focus on immigrants workers in America versus citizens in America while importation is allowed at all. I find all of this also very much in conflict with HN’s anti tariff attitude.
    • epolanski 1y ago
      > I don't think US workers should have to compete with 1 billion+ other global workers for their jobs Why not? Also friendly reminder 99.999% of US population is made of immigrants.
      • toomuchtodo 1y ago
        As of January 2025, the U.S. has an immigrant population of 53.3 million people, making up 15.8% of the total population. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/08/21/key-findings-about-us-immigrants/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/08/21/key-findi... https://usafacts.org/immigration/ https://usafacts.org/immigration/
        • epolanski 1y ago
          And of the remaining 300+M virtually none are native americans ;)
          • toomuchtodo 1y ago
            Historically relevant, not legally in the current context. I sympathize with the distinction, but it is important if we are to consider that nations have borders and that will remain into the future. We should enable reasonable and tangible paths to citizenship, but a free for all is untenable. Otherwise, we arrive at the current situation where how the laws are applied changes from administration to administration.
      • confidantlake 1y ago
        Wrong.
    • esalman 1y ago
      What is the original purpose of H1B visa program? To attract global talent or to reduce the payroll burden of the corporations?
  • NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
    >I really hope that it fails on freedom of expression grounds. I really hope Congress acts to make Instacart's tactics felonious with harsh penalties that ruin the company so thoroughly that it terrifies the stock market to stop investing in companies with similar HR policies. Furthermore, if the HR employees who are responsible or even in the loop could be prosecuted and ruined, this would be good too. The government has the power to allow corporations to incorporate and to continue to operate, but if these same corporations are harmful to our country's citizens then government also has both the power and responsibility to make it impossible for these corporations to continue to exist. There is no fundamental human right involved. Corporations exist at the sufferance of people, not the other way around.
  • narrator 1y ago
    The Instacart thing is just bluster. If they tried to file any lawsuit against these guys it's be an easy SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation) defense, which is a way to quickly throw out lawsuits in most states where corporations or others are trying to quell free speech.
    • derf_ 1y ago
      I assume they would try to venue-shop for somewhere Anti-SLAPP protections are much weaker. Maryland and Virginia look particularly bad, for example (but IANAL).
  • happytoexplain 1y ago
    This misses the point bigly. We can go ahead and use low-friction global best-candidate techniques as soon as we are all incorporeal ghosts in the digital world who don't physically live in any one country. Until then, we must protect our citizens (where "we" means everybody, not just the US).
    • BobbyJo 1y ago
      Yeah, I think people mistake country and geographic area. The US is the 300+ million people that build and apply systems and institutions within an area, not the area itself. Coming to the conclusion that people here are interchangeable with people anywhere else and should constantly have to earn their place is fundamentally divorced from reality.
• NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  This is hilarious.
• add-sub-mul-div 1y ago
  If Apple and Meta have had to pay $38 million for engaging in these practices I don't understand why they used the subtle "chronically-online" dig against people trying to expose it: "And this has given rise to a cottage industry of chronically-online types — in other words, typical tech workers — seeking to expose them."
  • kstrauser 1y ago
    What the… Yeah, I’m with you on that one. “We would’ve gotten away with it, too, if it weren’t for those meddling chronically onlines seeing if we’re obeying federal law!”
  • pavel_lishin 1y ago
    The whole thing seems to oddly disdainful of the people being impacted: > How many 20-something software engineers even know how to use a post office in 2025?
    • codyb 1y ago
      To "use" a post office? What like... any... other... store or building where you walk in, perform an action, and leave?
      • arcfour 1y ago
        Ah crap, here I've been trying to walk into the side of the building for the past 3 hours.
        • Terr_ 1y ago
          "Midvale Post-Office for the Gifted."
  • supjeff 1y ago
    I feel like there was a lot of nonsense ideas for what is such a short, and supposedly journalistically rigorous article
• daft_pink 1y ago
  Essentially, they want to hire a specific person, while the law requires that they post the job and prefer American citizens, so they don’t want American citizens to apply not that they prefer foreign workers in general they just have a specific candidate in mind. I think Trump’s position of forcing companies to pay a substantial fee in exchange for a fast tracked green card is really the most sensible position instead of H1B. It should be less than $5 million, but I think if a company had to pay $300k not have any or limited protection against that person quickly finding a job in the. united states, then companies would generally prefer american workers in a way that makes economic sense, because talented workers can be acquired for a price, but not be kept for peanuts in exchange for less than an American worker, because they are stuck with the employer for 20 years if they come from a quota country.
  • kjkjadksj 1y ago
    If they had someone specific in mind the usual method is to have their resume next to you when you write up the job app. Make the requirements perfectly match their skills. Now you can say when you picked them that they were the best candidate all along.
    • prasadjoglekar 1y ago
      That's one of several tactics. But if someone did apply and was close enough, you still have to do the interview and reject song and dance. Better to deter applications in the first place.
    • daft_pink 1y ago
      I think it’s lot tricker for the large companies that tend to hire H1B visa holders to do this, because a manager would need to convince the HR department to violate the law, and the company might be concerned the risks involved are not a good idea if enough candidates apply. Plus, there seems to be some indicator tha the job you are applying is an H1B position and they are posting them on sites for Americans to apply too. So it’s not hard to imagine a bunch of highly qualified idealogue’s applying to jobs they never wanted in the first place and reporting them to the government when they get rejected. It doesn’t seem like a good idea to try and manipulate the system with the current government’s willingness to go after companies. If they’ll go after a US ally like Hyundai for using ESTA under the VWP illegally, when Hyundai could probably have easily applied for and been granted B-1 visas. Can you imagine what they would do to a company illegally sponsoring H1B visas?
• ricksunny 1y ago
  >Should the system rely so heavily on asking out-of-work Americans to act as goalies — if or when they happen to have the time? A zinger of a concluding line if ever there was one.
• throwmeaway222 1y ago
  [flagged]
  • teachrdan 1y ago
    Out of curiosity, do they favor hiring Indians in general, or Hindu Indians in particular. (To the exclusion of Muslim Indians)
    • throwmeaway222 1y ago
      that is definitely part of it
      • mystraline 1y ago
        Yep. And caste based discrimination is legal in the USA. Its not a protected EEOC class, as much as that doesn't matter in our legal environment. So yeah, you can discriminate against Dalits, and hire predominantly Brahmins.
        • jkaplowitz 1y ago
          Except in Seattle, which explicitly bans caste discrimination as of 2023, and in California, which interprets its own state anti-discrimination laws to already include caste discrimination in other broader categories (which was the reason Governor Newsom gave when he vetoed a bill in 2023 to explicitly ban caste discrimination). Quite a lot of tech companies hire in either Seattle, California, or both.
      • SilverElfin 1y ago
        What’s the evidence? I remember seeing allegations but all the court cases resulted in nothing, because there was no evidence of such discrimination.
    • zdragnar 1y ago
      It's been awhile since I've seen it, but there was a very brief and small wave of articles perhaps a few years back claiming a lot of Indians in the US were still facing caste-based discrimination (by skin color, name or something else, I'm not sure) by other Indian managers and execs.
• woah 1y ago
  I'm certainly not an expert in immigration law but this whole system seems pretty stupid. On one hand, H1B holders can be paid below market rates because it is very hard for them to switch jobs. For this reason, they create resentment from American citizens. On the other hand, it would be extremely detrimental to the US to kill the golden goose of our tech industry by turning it into some kind of forced welfare for citizens. Another country which is able to hire the best from around the world will take our place. And then of course, the entire program is structured in an extremely bureaucratic way, with all this nonsense about publishing job ads in secret newspapers. It seems that these issues could be addressed very simply by tweaking Trump's proposed "gold card" system: anyone can get a work visa, by paying $100,000 per year. This is not tied to a specific employer. The high payment ensures that the only people coming over are doing so to earn a high salary in a highly skilled field. There is no tying the employee to a specific company, so it is fairer for citizens to compete against them.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • pavel_lishin 1y ago
    > Another country which is able to hire the best from around the world will take our place. But not all of the H1B folks are the best from around the world; they're simply significantly cheaper, and the reality of the H1B Visa also means that they're very unlikely to quit their jobs for greener pastures.
    • woah 1y ago
      Yea that's exactly the point I'm making. If they came and paid a high visa payment, then they would not be significantly cheaper.
  • kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
    This will incentivize foreign intelligence services to fund their own market of conveniently cash flush moles.
• pavel_lishin 1y ago
  > How many 20-something software engineers even know how to use a post office in 2025? Ok, come on, this is just an insulting "kids these days" throw-away line that is absolutely not necessary.
  • nancyminusone 1y ago
    Doubley stupid because the task is about mailing a letter, which does not require a post office.
  • ajross 1y ago
    That's an editorial point, not a substantial one. Obviously requiring an application be submitted by an inconvenient and antiquated method that isn't used by the demographic in question is going to create friction and reduce the number of applications. That this is expressed in a whimsical way (personally I liked the turn of phrase, but that's an issue of taste) might personally offend you but doesn't change the substance of the article.
    • BobbyJo 1y ago
      It also has the effect of making the job posting seem fake, or like a scam, because who in their right mind would believe META, who has their own, in-house operated, online job application portal, would require a job application to be mailed in.
      • Terr_ 1y ago
        Right, imagine if the same posting was onlinen in a legitimate-looking spot, but for some reason the process required credit-card validation up front.
    • pavel_lishin 1y ago
      I'm not complaining about the substance, but the tone feels weirdly disdainful of the people impacted across the whole thing. It almost feels like the author was assigned this topic & overall goal, but hates the people she's writing about.
• mikert89 1y ago
  There's another thing happening which people haven't really heard much about, which is basically ChatGPT Pro is really good at making legal arguments. And so people that previously would never have filed something like a discrimination lawsuit can now use ChatGPT to understand how to respond to managers' emails and proactively send emails that point out discrimination in non-threatening manner, and so in ways that create legal entrapment. I think people are drastically underestimating what's going to happen over the next 10 years and how bad the discrimination is in a lot of workplaces.
  • OutOfHere 1y ago
    That's all well and good, but anyone who does this will likely just be terminated asap without cause, possibly as a part of a multi-person layoff that makes it appear innocuous.
    • toomuchtodo 1y ago
      First call should be to an employment attorney and the EEOC, no matter what, before you sign anything. https://www.eeoc.gov/how-file-charge-employment-discrimination https://www.eeoc.gov/how-file-charge-employment-discriminati...
    • mikert89 1y ago
      That’s not quite right. To win a discrimination case, you typically need to document a pattern of behavior over time—often a year. Most people can’t afford a lawyer to manage that. But if you’re a regular employee, you can use ChatGPT to draft calm, non-threatening Slack messages that note discriminatory incidents and keep doing that consistently. With diligent, organized evidence, you absolutely can build a case; the hard part is proving it, and ChatGPT is great at helping you gather and frame the proof.
      • JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > To win a discrimination case, you typically need to document a pattern of behavior over time—often a year Where did you hear this? > use ChatGPT to draft calm, non-threatening Slack messages that note discriminatory incidents and keep doing that consistently This is terrible advice. It not only makes those messages inadmissible, it casts reasonable doubt on everything else you say. Using an LLM to take the emotion out of your breadcrumbs is fine. Having it draft generic stuff, or worse, potentially hallucinate, may actually flip liability onto you, particularly if you weren't authorised to disclose the contents of those messages to an outside LLM.
• sciencesama 1y ago
  [flagged]
  • 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
    What percent of tech jobs?
    • toomuchtodo 1y ago
      Don't have a percentage handy, but these resources are likely useful for your inquiry. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/03/04/what-we-know-about-the-us-h-1b-visa-program/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/03/04/what-we-k... https://www.epi.org/blog/tech-and-outsourcing-companies-continue-to-exploit-the-h-1b-visa-program-at-a-time-of-mass-layoffs-the-top-30-h-1b-employers-hired-34000-new-h-1b-workers-in-2022-and-laid-off-at-least-85000-workers/ https://www.epi.org/blog/tech-and-outsourcing-companies-cont... https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/USCIS%20H-1B%20Authorized%20to%20Work%20Report.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/reports/U... https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-and-studies/h-1b-employer-data-hub https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-and-studies/h-1b-employe... (if you email Pew Research, I've found their research team to be receptive to inquiries when they have the data but did not include it in a publication)
      • 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
        > About 400,000 H-1B applications for high-skilled foreign workers were approved in 2024 That's more than I thought!
        • toomuchtodo 1y ago
          Compare to https://layoffs.fyi/ https://layoffs.fyi/
  • bitshiftfaced 1y ago
    That's not the only way you can work in the US. "In 2023 17.9% of employed workers were immigrants" https://usafacts.org/answers/what-percent-of-jobs-in-the-us-are-held-by-immigrants/country/united-states/ https://usafacts.org/answers/what-percent-of-jobs-in-the-us-...
• 2OEH8eoCRo0 1y ago
  Didn't Apple used to post job openings in small local newspapers in the Midwest?
• ortusdux 1y ago
  Reminds me of the shenanigans you see when a govt job is required to be posted for open bid, but the dept already has an internal hire lined up.
• klipklop 1y ago
  To anybody playing attention it's very clear SV tech vastly prefers to import foreign labor rather than hire local. It has been this way for multiple decades now (and gets worse every year.) I don't see this changing any time soon. Sure they get the occasional slap on the wrist, but the wage suppression saves them way more money over time.
  • antisthenes 1y ago
    It's just outsourcing training/education (again, the first wave already happened circa 2009-2013).
    • notmyjob 1y ago
      It’s not just that. It is also that people will do unsafe and unethical things to avoid being sent (back) to India. If it were only outsourcing it wouldn’t be dominated by Indians.
      • franktankbank 1y ago
        Bingo.
  • surgical_fire 1y ago
    > the wage suppression Do immigrants earn less than locals? My impression is that the salary is similar. I am not in the US, but I rejected job offers from across the pond in the past and the salary seemed to be on the level with what I know is paid in the US for that position. My guess is that what they like in H1B workers is that they are sort of stuck with that employer, as changing jobs under such a Visa can be tricky no?
    • tstrimple 1y ago
      If you look at the total cost of an employee and not just an annual salary, then the fact that they have far less mobility makes them cheaper. Why hire the person who will bail when you mistreat them so you have to spend all that time and money finding someone new when you can have someone who risks deportation if they decide they are done with your bullshit. I could afford to spend the next six months out of work looking for a replacement job. No one on an H1B can because they would be in violation of their visa. They will tolerate far more nonsense than I will.
• joshcsimmons 1y ago
  So grateful to see this being picked up by mainstream news outlets. Anecdotally I know quite a few engineers with experience ranging from small startup to long FAANG tenures that cannot even get an interview. It makes no sense to source outside of the US when qualified American workers cannot get jobs. At some point that became a radical stance and I'm sure I'll be flamed for it here.
  • franktankbank 1y ago
    I have no problem with giving the job to someone overseas but they can do that on their home turf.
  • robotnikman 1y ago
    >It makes no sense to source outside of the US when qualified American workers cannot get jobs. This. It's getting to a boiling point now with so many people out of work who are more than qualified for these jobs being shunned from them, and now they are fighting back. I'm sure there are many here who work in tech that can relate who have gone through hundreds, possibly thousands, of applications and not hearing anything back.
  • downrightmike 1y ago
    Outsourcing needs to be eliminated. If the company is doing 20% of their business in Ohio, 20% of their workforce needs to be in Ohio. 12% in NY State, 12% of the workers need to be in NY State etc. To your point, the sense is that diploma mills exist and the corporations mostly want bodies to work 20 hours a day and indentured servitude is what they want most. That 25% tax on international workers is nothing. It will be gamed like the tax code. If we want to fix things, the Double Dutch/Irish/ Shell companies need to be eliminated. Stock buy backs also need to be eliminated. There is no reason for it to be allowed, it is direct manipulation. When Corps have to pay their fair share, they'll invest in people as a expense and write it off. Which is what they were doing before tax evasion, outsourcing, and the shell game. Eliminate the tax evasion and punish corps with fines until they are above board.
    • donkeybeer 1y ago
• back2dafucha 1y ago
  Old news. This has been going on for decades. If you even look badly on youtube you will find corporate videos from "HR Consultants" teaching companies how to bury job listings so noone will be likely to find them. Your country sold you down the river 30 years ago.
  • buckle8017 1y ago
    The thing this article didn't mention and the author likely doesn't know is that there's a guide going around instructing people on how to apply for H1B jobs on forums like 4chan.
    • exhilaration 1y ago
      I've got out of work friends that would love to see this guide. Please share.
      • PyWoody 1y ago
        Job Listing Site Highlighting H-1B Positions So Americans Can Apply - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44892321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44892321 - August 2025 (108 comments) https://jobs.now https://jobs.now
      • kccqzy 1y ago
        This is unlikely to be of use to your friends. Companies hide these job openings because they aren't real: they are filled by a real person right now. If someone applies, they won't be hired because there's no extra headcount. They will just be rejected after a resume review. Companies usually don't even extend interviews to such candidates. Applying only delays the green card process of a foreigner since they will need to rewrite a job description to be even more tailored to that already employed person.
        • lazide 1y ago
          So…. Locals shouldn’t delay or poison the process for a foreigner that would take ‘their’ role, while bored on unemployment - why exactly?
• OsrsNeedsf2P 1y ago
  > According to the Justice Department, the companies absurdly required applicants to submit applications by mail [...] How many 20-something software engineers even know how to use a post office in 2025? I always wondered how they made sure no one applied to the position they wanted the H1B to fill
• fmajid 1y ago
  One popular trick was to advertise the jobs in newspapers. The dead-tree edition only.
• potatototoo99 1y ago
  I see everyone is for maximizing shareholder value until they are reminded they are workers first.
• carterschonwald 1y ago
  Fun fact: the payout from the meta settlement they reference works out to there being less than 4,000 members of the eligible class. Otoh getting a large check is always a pleasant surprise. I kept the letter cause it’s a huge amount
• tamimio 1y ago
  That's the real reason for the job market crisis; it is not AI, it's just corporate greed to have borderline slaves to lower job wages and workers willing to work extra hours for peanuts. AI is just the scapegoat, easy to blame it on something that's still new while also milking investors' money by promising how it will reduce costs and increase profits. If the job market crisis were really from AI, not only should it happen within a few years of adopting such new tech, but we should see its impact on other industries like lawyers, medical doctors, administrators, and lastly on tech workers, not the other way around. That's why I keep saying and repeating: the tech industry and especially the engineering one should be further regulated and restricted just like other professions out there, otherwise, you are only allowing anyone to scam and game the system with any potential bubble currently happening.
• bobthepanda 1y ago
  I recall there being a proposal to prioritize H1Bs based on salary, which would at least lessen or eliminate the race to the bottom and stuff like people training their lower paid replacements
• legitster 1y ago
  So I was at a company that did this a lot - it was much less nefarious than on the surface. It was usually related to them recruiting a certain specialist or acquiring a team at another company. But the only way to get these people visas was to post the jobs publicly and hide them as much as possible. They did this by the hundreds, and it wasn't really a cost saving measure - if you are trying to get anybody in particular from Microsoft or Amazon and they are already here on a Visa, you have to go through the process all over again to sponsor them. So it was less about racism and more about hoops to jump through to hire someone that you have already basically hired. If you've ever had experience with how a government RFP works, maybe don't throw rocks from glass houses. Is it unfair? Maybe. But in my opinion anything is fairer than our country's evil immigration requirements.
  • Aeolun 1y ago
    Isn’t it funny that in the past the only thing you had to do was simply show up?
  • ethanwillis 1y ago
    "The "hacker ethos" seems to be in decline, for any number of interconnected reasons"
  • missingcolours 1y ago
    As I understand it, the issue is that the official pathway to hire a permanent foreign worker (PERM status) is very long (18 months+), and most companies don't want to start a process in hopes of hiring someone in a year or more. H1B offers a shortcut, where they can be brought in on a temporary permit, then apply for PERM status. But PERM status requires a bona fide search for American workers; using the H1B shortcut legally would require an awkward job search where you already have an employee in the role, and if an applicant is found the current employee not only loses their job but has to literally leave the country. So instead of getting into that awkward situation, employers are faking the "bona fide search" requirement and trying to hand the green card status directly to the H1B even when Americans are available that could do that job. That said... there is still the question of why companies choose to go down this road instead of simply hiring Americans. We can speculate about their intentions (cost saving via lower wages, employees willing to work more hours and under worse conditions, racism, etc) but it's unlikely that they're violating federal law just for fun. This is a lot of hoops to jump through and risk to take on without a compelling reason to do so.
• catigula 1y ago
  This crime has yet to be addressed.
• cjbgkagh 1y ago
  Instead of having job openings posted by those who don't want them found what if people posted willingness to work, perhaps in some sort of registry. That way a company would have to prove that none of the people willing to work are qualified. I'm sure many qualified people would be open to moving.
  • simpaticoder 1y ago
    Yes, something like this would be great. You could tie the registry to both IRS and SSA databases ensuring a) the job hunters are real, and b) the jobs offered are (eventually) real. It would also be great to carve an exception into liability law and require employers to give feedback to workers about a rejection. I'm sure this leaves lots of room for malefactors on all sides, but it would handle the biggest flaws of the current system.
  • teeray 1y ago
    At the very least, if you want an H1-B, companies should be forced to post the secret jobs on a standardized, embarrassingly public database. Think MLS, but for jobs.
    • y-curious 1y ago
      The fact that Instacart threatened legal action against jobs.now is proof that you're correct
• thatfrenchguy 1y ago
  > However, in order for applications for permanent residency to be successful, companies must certify their inability to find a suitable American candidate to take the position they’re looking to fill with a foreign national I mean, you know, if you already have an employee working on H1B, why would you take the risk to hire someone else to replace them? The perm process is pretty broken in that way.
  • Bratmon 1y ago
    Or companies could, you know, train people to fill permanent positions instead of claiming permanent positions are temporary and acting shocked when they aren't.
• mirrorsaurus 1y ago
  It isn't just corporations, its the federal government. The same ones hiding the rampant student rape issue at UIUC Champaign
• 1024core 1y ago
  A lot of these problems could be solved if H1-B's were given out in order of salary (I think there's such a proposal going around recently). And by that I mean: something like a Dutch auction. Give H1-Bs to the top 85K paying jobs (maybe normalized to SoL in the region, I'm sure the BLS has some idea on how to do it). The lure of H1-Bs is the money savings, and the fact that if you're on an H1-B, you're practically an indentured servant (Yes, things have changed recently and it is easier on paper to switch jobs while on H1-B). It used to be that if you lost your job as an H1-B, you had 30 days to uproot your life and get out of the US otherwise you'd be in violation of immigration laws.
  • casey2 1y ago
    You could also "solve" these problems by cutting every social service. That's the only reason H1-Bs are willing to work for less, because their country doesn't invest nearly as much into them. People seem to have a moral problem with cutting social services, I wonder why this doesn't go both ways when hiring foreign nationals who can only work because their country doesn't. They don't even have to be foreign red states have been supplying silicon valley with cheap labor for decades. If you want the pure solution you would have to block hiring from these states too, not just H1B. Do you really want to exploit someone who was taught that the earth is 6000 years old and will also have to uproot their live when they are fired? You can try to classify underprivileged workers and scale compensation based on their class, but any mistakes would lead to unfair wages. The real solution is to increase the standard of living in developing countries and decrease the standard of living in advanced countries starting with relatively wealthy people. Your solution is just a weird soft ban that implicitly buys into the propaganda that there are genius H1B workers when we all know why companies hire them.
  • kccqzy 1y ago
    The lure of H-1B is not really the money savings. Go look at the graduating class of computer science students at large universities. A large fraction are international students. Universities thrive on them since they pay the most tuition and are generally not allowed any financial aid. Companies want to hire them in addition to U.S. citizens. That's it. No Silicon Valley company that I know of pays H-1B and citizens different wages on that basis. The difficulty of switching jobs on H1-B has always been a myth. Voluntary job switches are just as easy as U.S. citizens. You just line up things well without the possibility of taking a long break in between jobs. Dealing with unexpected job terminations (fired or laid off) is the problem.
• 486sx33 1y ago
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• TriangleEdge 1y ago
  From experience: big tech has to post jobs to US citizens before it can hire on a visa or sponsor a green card. So the trick is to put an ad in a physical news paper and present that as evidence.
• renewiltord 1y ago
  [flagged]
• cramcgrab 1y ago
  We effectively replaced 43 h1b’s with AI. Looking to do more soon.
• whatever1 1y ago
  For some visa types, companies are obligated to prove that they advertised the position to American citizens. Failed, hence they needed the foreigner. This is a huge dealbreaker for campus hires, and specifically masters/PhDs who are, well, by definition, specialized in their field and hence very rare. So you recruit at her graduation the girl who has done groundbreaking research in deep neural nets and is the key to one of your big projects. She happens to be non-American (because the majority of graduates are non-Americans). Now what? You know that there is nobody else on the planet that has done this research, yet you have to start recruiting for this position for Americans. What is the incentive you have as a company to pour a ton of resources on this effort? Recruiting is very expensive. Time is also very expensive when you are at the forefront of innovation.
  • coredog64 1y ago
    For every job like that, there's 100 jobs that are "Write basic Java CRUD app against RDBMS backend"
    • alchemical_piss 1y ago
      [dead]
  • cryo28 1y ago
    And what percentage of H-1Bs are these PhDs with groundbreaking research backgrounds? The vast majority of the H-1Bs are hired by a handful of consulting firms (mostly indian) to do mundate SWE/IT jobs that don't require any special skills but a few months of bootcamp. Also, don't forget that truly exceptional researchers can self-file for green-card using national interest waiver categories: EB1NIW, EB2NIW don't require employee sponsorship. So, I think your point is moot.
    • whatever1 1y ago
      How does the green card solve my problem as an employer? Should I also force them to get married with Americans so that they have better chances of working for me? I just want to sponsor a visa for a worker of rare qualifications. If they choose to become permanent residents of the US it’s their choice, and frankly none of my business. The system we have is insane.
• itake 1y ago
  Why is hiding the jobs necessary? I applied for one of these jobs years ago. The recruiter told, "I have no idea how you applied for this job, but its not available for you. let me have you interview a different, but similar, role." What was I supposed to do other than say, "ok! Send over the other job description."?
  • illusive4080 1y ago
    I’m not sure why. Because they’re usually at salaries that you wouldn’t accept. Like paying 30% below market rate.
    • wickrom 1y ago
      Is instacart a lowballer employer? levels.fyi suggests software engineers at L3 are getting 222k
  • overfeed 1y ago
    > Why is hiding the jobs necessary? Because they'd gave to commit outright fraud with no plausible deniability if they have to hide US Citizens applications for jobs they've earmarked for current immigrant employees' PERM. Hiding the jobs gives them deniability.
  • pests 1y ago
    “What do you mean it’s not available to me?”
    • itake 1y ago
      They don't have to answer this. The lady told me the job posting was in a "weird system" and quickly moved the conversation to other open roles.
  • bandrami 1y ago
    "You have just committed visa fraud and I am calling a labor lawyer"
• bdangubic 1y ago
  The only requirement for H1B should be that you must get your degree in the United States. H1B’s should not be given out otherwise. It would solve almost all current shortcomings of the program
  • itake 1y ago
    Many h1bs get masters degrees in the USA, b/c they are lower cost than undergrad, can be done online/remotely, and are higher chance of winning the lottery. I don't think requiring a US degree would impact even half the candidates.
    • bdangubic 1y ago
      Good point, definitely no online/remote, must reside in the US minimum 2 years to qualify
• ab_testing 1y ago
  I think the hill is trying to create a narrative here. The law specifically states to post job postings in newspapers and it is congress's fault if they have not updated the laws. As per PERM regulations (20 C.F.R. §656.17): For professional positions (those requiring a bachelor’s degree or higher), the employer must conduct two Sunday newspaper advertisements in a newspaper of general circulation in the area of intended employment. For non-professional positions, at least one Sunday ad is required.
  • alchemical_piss 1y ago
    [dead]
  • prime_ursid 1y ago
    Finally, someone in this thread says this. Thank you! This opinion column from The Hill is written by a Fox News contributor. Of course it’s going to leave out certain inconvenient facts in service of a nativist agenda. The HN community time and time again shows that they are ready to be whipped up into an anti-immigrant frenzy at the drop of a hat.
  • Bratmon 1y ago
    I don't understand how that justifies Instacart suing the organization that is reposting the job ads in a more accessible way.
    • bubblethink 1y ago
      Instacart sent a cease and desist for trademark violation. You cannot become a middleman for random businesses/services. Kind of similar to how doordash and others got into trouble by hijacking restaurants' order flow without consent.
• esbranson 1y ago
  See for example a recent lawsuit accusing Tesla of running a systemic, ongoing scheme to replace or exclude US citizens in favor of H-1B visa employees.[1][2] > Tesla prefers to hire these candidates [H-1B workers] over U.S. citizens, as it can pay visa-dependent employees less than American employees performing the same work, a practice in the industry known as “wage theft.” > At the same time Tesla applied for these visa applications, it laid off more than 6,000 workers across the United States. On information and belief, Tesla laid off these workers, the vast majority of whom are U.S. citizens, so that it could replace them with non-citizen visa workers. > The email also bluntly stated that the Tesla position was for “H1B only” and that “Travel history/i94 are a must” (i.e., proof of legal entry into the U.S.). [1] https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71325887/taub-v-tesla-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/71325887/taub-v-tesla-i... [2] https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/lawsuit-says-musks-tesla-hires-visa-holders-instead-of-americans-so-it-can-pay-less https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/lawsuit-say...
  • gradientsrneat 1y ago
    FYI to anyone reading this, this is not what wage theft means. Wage theft is an employer not paying wages they owe to an employee.
    • chneu 1y ago
      Yup and it's also worth mentioning that wage theft is the largest source of theft in the United States. Employers steal more wages from employees than shoplifting or basically any other form of theft, combined. Wage theft makes up 4x more theft than the next largest, which is larceny. Americans are waaaay too corporation friendly.
      • 93po 1y ago
        the fact that you can imprison people, but the most you can do to a corporation is fine them, is evidence enough that america supports profit over humans
• simpaticoder 1y ago
  I see lots of good ideas about changing the selection process. Another option is to change is to change the new hire process and require employers to advertise every recent H1B hiring decision for 60 days, including job description and resume. Then a native with an equal or better resume, and a willingness to fill the role, can raise their hand and offer to replace that person. If a native with a better resume is denied, then it is a cause for action against the employer (ideally a fine paid to the applicant that would at least fund further search time). Repeated violations would result in wholesale revocation of H1B access.
  • ajsnigrutin 1y ago
    Or just require H1B workers to be paid above average (by some factor) for the position. Average pay for <workplace> is 50k? If you want a foreign worker, you must pay them at least (eg.) 1.2x the average, so 60k. This solves the problem of abuse (since they'll probably find a local for 55k), and solve the genuine need for foreign workers in areas where there are not enough locals (eg. touristy areas needing tourist workers) ... at a bit higher price of course.
    • simpaticoder 1y ago
      Perhaps that would work, but I'm not so sure. I don't think the employers we're talking about are sensitive to a 20% price premium. And they might find the additional leverage H1B gives them over the employee to be worth the premium anyway. My proposal would give natives a chance to get a real job (not a ghost posting) that was given to a real person (the H1B person), and simply take their place.
  • selkin 1y ago
    Employers already have to publish H1-B applications, including wages (but not personal information of the applicants, which would be a very bad idea to publish).
• temptemptemp111 1y ago
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• qozpen-6pirre 1y ago
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• cadamsdotcom 1y ago
  It’s much more banal than it seems. Personal anecdote: I hired an exceptional H-1B worker to a role while I worked in SF, but was legally required to first advertise their role in 2 places. We put it in a 2am TV spot and a Modesto newspaper ad. But the whole thing was a legally required farce. We already knew from months of aggressive sourcing that no other qualified candidates existed - in fact we were over the moon to hire this person.
  • nomid 1y ago
    I don't get it - if you were aggressively sourcing for months, presumably advertising your job via normal channels, wouldn't that already satisfy the requirement for perm? I keep seeing annecdotes about exceptional one of a kind talent, world class PhDs etc. I think we can all agree that majority of H1Bs we work with are not those people. They are regular devs without exceptional skills (not saying no skills, just nothing especially unique). There are thousands laid of, qualified US workers that can fill those roles. You can't convince me that we have such lack of talent in tech today that massive amounts of h1bs have to be brought in.
    • cadamsdotcom 1y ago
      We were advised by our counsel that as part of applying for the H-1B on this person’s behalf, the ads were needed. Since the advice was given in a clear way and was very procedural, I treated it as necessary, did as told, and moved on to work that has actual impact as fast as possible.. I had actually forgotten about this until now. Hence banal.
• mydriasis 1y ago
  You can find jobs that corporations tried to hide on jobs.now: https://www.jobs.now/ https://www.jobs.now/
• ggm 1y ago
  Freedom of movement of labour is the principal reason unions and the British labour party had significant brexit support: the view was that EU labour migration was designed to reduce bargaining power. I can't say if that's true or not, but it does suggest that the best path out for tech workers in the US might be to unionise. Because hateful though it is, and I remain a steadfast "remainer" .. brexit happened. If you don't like H1B rules, organise. But bear in mind who you will be associating with promoting a closed labour market.
  • veunes 1y ago
    That tension between protecting labor rights and promoting open markets is real
    • ggm 1y ago
      Plays both ways. As many British kids denied low barrier entry to Europe suffer as people who saw their job value defended. And, cheap EU/shengen labour was just replaced by non EU equivalents, driving the British right wing faragists even crazier. It also dis-incented the French to stop migration transit across the channel in boats. So, Labour cost dilution happened anyway. And small business tanked with market access losses. All of this could affect the USA. Sales of US sw and service, access to European CDN and DC markets could dry up, and startup culture see less interest in product in the wider market, as H1B displaced workers "back home" carry American models into their domestic VC market. Tbh, I think that's less likely to work. People (not me I hasten to add, I'm past the age) want to move to an idea of America they grow up with, and VC friendly economics don't export well: people outside America hate failure. I guess I'm saying current WH policy doesn't favour the "open market" side of this, regarding non US market access and there will be a consequent reaction in those non US markets to American labour and ideas.
• veunes 1y ago
  What's wild is how blatantly some of these tactics skirt the spirit of the law while technically staying within its letter
• the_real_cher 1y ago
  Has anyone started to think that tech industry in the USA is going the way of the manufacturing industry? And by that I mean mostly gone/offshored?
  • bubblethink 1y ago
    That is what everyone is asking for though. As you can see from the complaints in the thread, people are angry about jobs going to immigrants in the US. The alternate is for jobs to go to immigrants abroad, i.e. offshoring. It appears that people are generally happier about the latter.
    • the_real_cher 1y ago
      I mean it's six of one half a dozen of another to an American who lost their job.
• FilosofumRex 1y ago
  Corporate crimes punishment is a real joke in the US. Meta/FB was fined a couple of million dollars for the same type of violations of temp work visa. I'm sure, it didn't even register on their bottom line. We need to put execs behind bar, before they'll ever respect labor or competition laws.
  • xpe 1y ago
    I agree. Corporations excel at finding ways to disperse authority and accountability to do illegal things, sometimes intentionally, sometimes simply by letting the natural corporate incentives play out -- "oh, look, this department didn't fully understand the situation"... to which the follow up question is "Ok, but _who_ designed the departments? They seem pretty good at maximizing profit, so why can't they also manage to comply with the law?"
  • Bratmon 1y ago
    Fun fact: Meta was fined 57 minutes of revenue for these practices.
• like_any_other 1y ago
  HN beat The Hill to this story by 5 days: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45151086 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45151086
• computerex 1y ago
  America is a god awful place. It's time to abandon ship. I intend to get out of this increasingly authoritarian naziesque hellhole.
• elcapitan 1y ago
  https://archive.ph/LCAqn https://archive.ph/LCAqn
• palmfacehn 1y ago
  If the hiring process is dishonest, wouldn't that be a good sign to avoid them as a potential employer? I know I'm out here in my own space capsule, but it seems like a non-sequitur. Again, perhaps this is my own bias speaking, but wouldn't you prefer to solve your own business problems as an entrepreneur, rather than battle to be employed by someone who has the intent to screw you, so that you might have the privilege to solve biz problems for them? In both cases you have problems, but only one gives you autonomy. Alternatively, you might look towards employers who want you and do not desire to screw you.
• tha_hnrain 1y ago
  Let me play the devil advocate here: - first, I don’t think the measures they put in place are unreasonable: publishing on newspapers, mailing your application instead of emailing or using online forms may feel outdated, but they are all standard practice in other countries. You cannot say you don’t know how to mail(!) or that reading newspapers is beneath your dignity, especially if you need a job! -second, what is wrong with free competition on the job market between US- and non-US citizens? Competition is good for the business, isn’t it?! It should be a competition on qualification and wage, not races, your skin color or some rubber stamp on a paper. Protecting domestic workers by artificially restricting competition risks creating complacency, higher costs, and slower growth. - I hear you say: but it’s our country! We (or our parents) paid tax to build it. Yes, but if companies hire non-US employees, they will pay good tax, rent housing, spend in local economies, and contribute to Social Security and Medicare, too, while often receiving less in return. - many foreign students already invest heavily in the U.S. by paying high tuition and living expenses, without subsidies. This is not charity; it’s a deliberate transfer of wealth into American universities and communities. Denying them a fair chance to compete for jobs means taking their money while closing the door to long-term participation, which is both unfair and economically wasteful. - intentionally barring foreign talent to artificially inflate wages for domestic workers undermines U.S. competitiveness. High labor costs without corresponding productivity gains make companies sluggish and less adaptive to global competition. The U.S. became great by being open to talent and ideas from everywhere, reversing that openness risks slow growth and stagnation. The real solution is domestic reform, not exclusion, for example by redistributing wealth more fairly through tax reforms that ensure the rich contribute proportionally. America grew strong by opening its doors to talent and competition. Shutting out qualified foreign workers to protect wages may feel safe in the short run, but in the long run it weakens our economy, breeds complacency, and wastes the very investment we’ve already taken from those who studied and contributed here. If we want Americans to compete better, fix student debt and inequality at home, but don’t impede the nation by closing the market to global talents.
  • itake 1y ago
    The problem is the inconsistencies. Fine, if a company wants to source talent from a news paper, great! But to only make postings in hard to find places, away from where the 'good' talent looks is bad. The problem is its not a free competition. I applied for one of these jobs 2 years ago, but a company was trying to sponsor a green card for an internal employee. The recruiter said I can't interview for that team, but I could interview for another similar, but different role. These companies aren't even offering interviews for these jobs! > many foreign students Schools limit how many people can attend. Foreign students take seats away from American students. These programs deny American students a chance to compete for American jobs before they even start college. An American student, rejected from Stanford, will not have as strong of a job application as the foreign Stanford graduate. Maybe the foreign student was more qualified and wasn't an affirmative action case. Maybe the university doesn't select % of students to be foreign to help subsidize the costs of american students. I don't know.
• insane_dreamer 1y ago
  I understand and sympathize with the interest in keeping American jobs for Americans first, if there aren't enough to go around. Generally makes sense. I feel the same way about my kids chances of getting into a good state college (increasingly difficult when you're competing against kids from the whole world). But it's the height of stupidity to employ ICE "thugs" to hunt down and round up poor laborers doing jobs that most Americans don't want to do, while letting big companies hire lots of foreigners on H1Bs for SWE jobs, while at the same time you have Americans graduating from college and unable to find jobs. The US should get rid of ICE and drop the H1B program altogether -- (maybe with some narrow exceptions and not even sure about that). For exceptionally talented people wanting to work in the US there's the EB1 and EB2 programs. That would both largely solve the "illegals are taking our jobs!" problem and stop us acting like some 3rd world police state with masked police acting like the Stasi.
• _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  We have already decided that we want to be a multi-cultural society in the US, so we impose immigration caps from each country. We should do the same from H1Bs. All of the smart people can't honestly be in just one or two countries. H1Bs should have their total limit also have a percentage allowed from a country requirement.
• Bratmon 1y ago
  Abolish the H1B. Now.