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ICC issues warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant, and Hamas officials
- idunnoman1222 2y agoArticle is pretty light on the details of the Hamas officials. I wonder if they’ll show up to their day in court.
- tsimionescu 2y agoAccording to Israel at least, all the ones that the warrants were requested for are now dead. Perhaps new warrants will be issued, but simply taking on the mantle of Hamas leadership will not make someone retroactively culpable for the crimes of October 7th. Culpability at this level is personal, not collective. So even though anyone who becomes the next leader of Hamas will be, by this act itself, a terrible human seeking to advance some horrible ideals, that will not make them culpable for everything Hamas has already done.
- HappyPanacea 2y ago[flagged]
- recroad 2y agoNo because dead
- Qem 2y ago> The Chamber issued warrants of arrest for two individuals, Mr Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr Yoav Gallant, for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024 And things got much worse in the latter part of 2024. Even if the court didn't take into account facts after 20 May 2024, ample evidence already existing by then was already enough to issue the warrants. When it takes more evidence into account I bet more warrants will be issued.
- bhouston 2y agoIt is incredibly likely another series of warrants will be issued for the next level down of both Israeli and Hamas leadership. It is too bad Lebanon didn't ratify the ICC treaty. They really should have.
- blackhawkC17 2y ago[flagged]
- bhouston 2y agoI would totally get behind ICC charges against Hezbollah. Bad actors need consequences.
- klipt 2y agoYou think Hezbollah would care about ICC consequences? They've been violating the UN resolution calling for them to withdraw north, disarm, and stop attacking Israel for years. Their stated (short term) goal is to disallow anyone in northern Israel to live in peace. (Their long term goal of course is to destroy Israel completely.)
- ComputerGuru 2y agoIt is indeed ridiculous that Lebanon didn’t join the ICC, one has to imagine that Hezbollah played a role in that decision. Which is funny because all the Palestinian resistance factions actually pushed for ICC jurisdiction to the extent that they called for it to apply to them and Israel equally! The hoops the Palestinians had to jump through to join the ICC were crazy, including (reified) threats of heavy punishments from the US if they did. Here’s the full story if anyone is interested: https://palepedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court%27s_jurisdiction_in_Palestine https://palepedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court%27s_...
- wbl 2y ago[flagged]
- n4r9 2y agoAccording to the BBC: > A warrant was also issued for [Hamas military commander] Mohammed Deif, although the Israeli military has said he was killed in an air strike in Gaza in July. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o
- neoromantique 2y ago[flagged]
- Urahandystar 2y agoWell until they have proof of his death it stands to reason they should arrest him.
- neoromantique 2y ago[flagged]
- monocasa 2y agoThe person was alive when the requests for the warrants were filed.
- maeil 2y agoThey had chosen two others, but Israel killed them in the meantime. Who should they have chosen?
- TheGuyWhoCodes 2y agohow about all the other Hamas leaders that are in Qatar and Turkey?
- HappyPanacea 2y agoHow about Mahmoud Abbas, head of PA, who funds the Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund which in turn gives money or incentives to unlawful combatants that had targeted civilians?
- neoromantique 2y ago[flagged]
- Urahandystar 2y agoThis feels like the end of the league of nations.
- ktallett 2y agoIt isn't scary at all. I for one, would much prefer to live in a world where war crimes and acts of genocide are appropriately called out. The fact this hasn't come sooner is the scary thing.
- 0_____0 2y agoMeasures like this seem pretty toothless, so I'm not sure what impact you're expecting
- ricardobeat 2y agoThey are right, though, aren’t they? We came up with these regulations and international agreements for a reason. If they ignore war crimes, their authority loses meaning, but if they pass judgment that we know is going to be completely ignored, their authority also loses meaning. Unless the powers that be decide to honor their word, it’s all pointless. What’s next?
- neoromantique 2y agoThey ignore war crimes plenty when it comes to Russia, Turkey, etc. According to UN Israel is the worst country there is, as over half of the resolutions are against Israel.
- n4r9 2y agoThe ICC also issued arrest warrants for Putin and Lvova-Belova last year, and for Sokolov, Kobylash, Shoigu and Gerasimov earlier this year.
- ktallett 2y agoRightfully so, their intentions and actions which have matched, have been clear for the last year. Hopefully the rest of the international community including governments will finally stand together and call them out for the crimes they have been committing. This is hopefully a step to removing arms sales to Israel as well from many countries.
- nabla9 2y ago(before you jump into discussion, remember that this only about these two individuals) ICC and the prosecutor are on very solid ground here. The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The panel included people like Theodor Meron (former Legal adviser for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs), Helene Kennedy, Adrian Fulford. Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant provided plenty of evidence of the intent. Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them. Case like this would be harder to prosecute without evidence of intent.
- justin66 2y ago> Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them. When it comes to US public opinion, that's normally the way it works.
- PaulHoule 2y agoThanks to our media and politicians.
- nabla9 2y agoPeople without media and politicians are not that much better.
- GordonS 2y agoAnd in turn, thanks to orgs like AIPAC.
- bjoli 2y agoI had a look at the democrats who support the recent "Stop Terror-Financing and Tax Penalties on American Hostages Act". I had a look at 10 of them. 7 of them had substantial donations from AIPAC. The others were soon up for re-election. I am not American, but why oh why are you not rooting in the streets? That is just soooo effed up. This is just one of so many issues, and AIPAC is a just a part of the problem. It is just so obvious that U.S. politicians are up for purchase.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- xenospn 2y agoWhen was the last time a head of state was arrested by the ICC?
- nabla9 2y agoOmar al-Bashir is currently jailed in Sudan, but has not been transferred to ICC custody yet. Gaddafi was killed before he could be arrested.
- bhouston 2y ago> When was the last time a head of state was arrested by the ICC? It also acts as a deterrent as much of the world will now likely be out of bounds for travel for either the Israelis or Hamas leadership who were issued warrants.
- jacob019 2y agoDead men don't travel.
- ssijak 2y agoYugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic was arrested and deported by the government of Yugoslavia after him. Of course, under immense pressure from the west. My preference would be that we tried him under our courts and sent him to jail in Yugoslavia/Serbia. Now, imposing "justice" obviously only works when you do it to small nations like Yugoslavia or Rwanda. Of course it will not apply to the Israel leader, let alone to somebody from even more powerful nation.
- nabla9 2y agoThat was ICTY, not ICC as OP asked.
- KSteffensen 2y agoI don't understand how a tiny country like Israel has become so important in global politics. By population Rwanda is ~30% larger than Israel.
- Grum9 2y ago[dead]
- 28304283409234 2y agoHow is this 'flagged'?
- docdeek 2y agoHacker News Guidelines: Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon... If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
- Qem 2y agoThis is a significant update on an event of historical impact.
- 1over137 2y agoIf they get arrested it’d be of historical impact. These warrants mean little really.
- lesuorac 2y agoIt's not a significant update. When the evergiven got stuck in the suez canel; if a court issued an arrest warrant for the captain that wouldn't have a historical impact. In a hundred years from now, the leaders of Isreal that people talk about will be the first, the last and the second to last. Similar to how when people talk about the Roman Empire (~500 year span) it's just Cesear.
- kayodelycaon 2y agoEh… I’ve never heard of a warrant being more than a footnote in history. Results are what ends up in the history books.
- jazzyjackson 2y agoSo let it be discussed on HistorianNews
- dang 2y agoUsers flagged it, as is common for the most divisive topics. I've turned the flags off now, in keeping with HN's standard practices: some (but only some) stories with political overlap are allowed, and in the case of a Major Ongoing Topic (MOT) we prefer the stories that contain Significant New Information (SNI). [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=political%20overlap%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20major%20ongoing%20topic&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... [3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... Here are a bunch of past explanations I've posted about how we approach this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41744331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41744331 (Oct 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40586961 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40586961 (June 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40418881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40418881 (May 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39920732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39920732 (April 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39618973 (March 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39435024 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39237176 (Feb 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38947003 (Jan 2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38749162 (Dec 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27252765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27252765 (May 2021)
- bhouston 2y agoThis shouldn't be flagged.
- 1over137 2y agoWhy not? How is it “hacker news” at all? It’s just news news.
- dang 2y agoOn HN, having some stories with political overlap is both inevitable and ok—the question is which particular stories those should be. We try to go for the ones that contain significant new information. See more at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204689. This approach has been stable for many years and there's no intention to allow HN to become a primarily-political site (quite the contrary) but it also doesn't work to try to exclude these things altogether.
- EvgeniyZh 2y agoI don't think I've seen any pro-Israeli post in top since the beginning of the war. Definitely anything I submitted was flagged to death almost immediately, even if it was hacker-ish (say, the analysis of the Hamas statistics). You can say of course that users decide what they want, but for political stories at least I don't think it is straightforward
- almogo 2y agoThe HN community is strongly anti-Israel. Which is surprising, but then again, what's really still surprising these days? I do think this news is major enough to justify being on HN. There is at least some useful discussions on the ICC that I found interesting, intermixed between the typical antisemitic messaging we're all-too used to seeing.
- phantompeace 2y ago
- ComputerGuru 2y agoWow, this took a long time to come after the application for the warrants. 185 days compared to 23 days for Putin's arrest warrant — but then again, one was against the wishes of the USA and the west while the other was at their behest.
- EB-Barrington 2y ago[dead]
- cies 2y agoAnd the US has threatened to invade NL if ICC warrants one of them. So much for the ICC: a banana court. It felt so real when Milosovic was trialed: now we all know the true nature of these show trials.
- ceejayoz 2y agoMilošević was not tried by the ICC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Tribunal_for_the_former_Yugoslavia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Tribuna...
- cies 2y agoLol. Thought they were the same. Both in The Hague.
- lostlogin 2y agoIt’s a banana court because the US doesn’t recognise it?
- rangestransform 2y agoit's a ~~banana~~ kangaroo court because the US turning over soldiers to the ICC would violate their 6th amendment right to a jury trial
- cies 2y ago
- seydor 2y agoI m afraid this fruitless pursuit will distract from the effort to stop the cleansing, which has to be diplomatic and international
- user982 2y agoWhat effort?
- lordofgibbons 2y agoI think gp, by "cleansing", means ethnic cleansing.
- Mystery-Machine 2y agoI think gp, by "What effort?", means "Not much effort has been made to stop the ethnic cleansing."
- ars 2y ago[flagged]
- Mystery-Machine 2y agoSo you want to say that the reason for _not_ doing this is: it will distract from the effort to stop the cleansing. Would that be the same as saying that we shouldn't issue a warrant against a school shooter because it wouldn't stop the shooting? Would it distract from gun laws? Maybe not the best analogy, but I know that I cannot say for certain whether it will negatively or positively affect the effort. It might positively affect if this makes (especially EU) countries put more pressure on Israel.
- NickC25 2y ago>It might positively affect if this makes (especially EU) countries put more pressure on Israel. That would never happen. Israel is above any and all criticism, how do people not realize that by now? Pressure, sanctions, whatever - nothing will actually happen. Likud can trot out the tired trope of antisemitism and any and all criticism, legitimate or not, is automatically waved away. Like it or not, that's objective reality. Before the shills come in and accuse me of this or that, let me be clear: NO, I don't support Hamas, Likud, or any organization that supports the killing of innocent people. Israel has a right to exist and defend itself, Palestine has a right to exist and defend itself.
- blackhawkC17 2y ago[flagged]
- Cumpiler69 2y agoI'm wondering what power does the ICC have to carry out its sentencing if the US chooses to disagree with it? Same with The Hague court, where the US said its soldiers would be imune from standing trial for crimes. So if these international courts are only allowed selective enforcement, what's the point of their existence? To only prosecute people the US doesn't choose to protect? Then what's the line between good guys and bad guys?
- aphantastic 2y agoIt’s really rather simple. Anyone on this planet only has as much authority as their guns provide them. The people who operate these courts have fewer guns than the US, so they don’t get authority over US interests.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoOf course. Isn't it obvious how in history books the "good guys" were always those with the most guns who ended up defeating the guys with less guns, who lost and were always the bad guys, 100% of the time? What a strange coincidence.
- mywittyname 2y agoHistory is full of "winners" that who are seen as "bad guys."
- School-Cotton 2y agoDo you have an example of someone who is widely regarded as "good guys" that you disagree with?
- s1artibartfast 2y agowhat exactly do you think would happen differently if you took the US out of the picture?
- dankai 2y ago"The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare." Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2]. Of course every death caused by intentional starvation is a severe crime and must be punished, but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
- guipsp 2y ago> Researchers at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University estimated deaths from starvation to be 62,413 between October 2023 and September 2024.
- dankai 2y ago[flagged]
- exe34 2y ago[flagged]
- nielsbot 2y ago[flagged]
- CapricornNoble 2y ago[flagged]
- nielsbot 2y agoIf you’re looking for death estimates there are other sources. The Lancet estimated 160K (at least IIRC) a month or two ago.
- surume 2y ago[flagged]
- adamtaylor_13 2y agoI’m out of the loop, why do you say this?
- cwkoss 2y ago[flagged]
- threemux 2y agoNot super meaningful in reality - any country looking to arrest either man should tread carefully. The American Service-Members' Protection Act authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". Israel is listed in the act as covered. Any means explicitly includes lethal force, which is why the act is nicknamed the "Invade the Hague" act.
- ssijak 2y agoThe Netherlands said that they would arrest anybody accused. That would be peculiar to see, what would actually happen if anybody of the accused were to travel there.
- wslh 2y ago[flagged]
- com 2y agoThe Dutch have a very lackadaisical attitude to law, and at the very same time a very principled cut-off-my-nose-to-spite-my-face rule of law mentality. If I were a senior Israeli or Hamas leader I’d avoid the place for a couple of decades in case of sealed charges.
- sgjohnson 2y ago> If I were a senior Israeli or Hamas leader I’d avoid the place for a couple of decades in case of sealed charges. If the Netherlands granted diplomatic immunity to said leaders before their visit, and then decided to arrest them, that by itself would be an act of war. And even worse, it would ruin basically the only treaty every country has agreed to - the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.
- sudosysgen 2y agoIn practice the Netherlands, by announcing openly they would be arrested before their arrival, had refused to grant them diplomatic immunity. So it is going to be extremely difficult to argue such an arrest would be against the Vienna convention. The Vienna convention explicitly states that the receiving state can declare before arrival that a diplomat will not be granted immunity.
- throwaway984393 2y agoThis will not amount to anything, but it's nice to know we aren't all crazy or anti-semitic for thinking the Israeli state has been acting very poorly in regards to the State of Palestine. Feels a little bit like trying to get organized crime on tax evasion.
- BadHumans 2y ago[flagged]
- haccount 2y ago[dead]
- bilekas 2y agoMust be nice to have friends in high places.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- bawolff 2y agoAs an effect though it does isolate these people. Countries may not want to host them lest they get in the middle of something. Keep in mind these warrants don't expire either. The world might look different 10 years from now. So i think these types of actions do have consequences even if they are not the same as a domestic court issuing the warrant
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago[flagged]
- talldayo 2y ago[flagged]
- input_sh 2y agoAllow me to introduce you to the Hague Invasion Act, signed into law 22 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr... > The Act gives the president power to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".[2] If you dig a little further, you'll notice that it also applies to "military personnel, elected or appointed officials, and other persons employed by or working on behalf of the government of a NATO member country, a major non-NATO ally including Australia, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Argentina, the Republic of Korea, and New Zealand." I wanna emphasize: This pre-dates Trump, Biden and Obama. This has been a law for over two decades. It passed both the House and the Senate with very little opposition. Both parties voted in favour of it.
- flyinglizard 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- cies 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- 0xDEAFBEAD 2y ago>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/international-criminal-court-icc-arrest-warrant-benjamin-netanyahu-yoav-gallant-mohamed-deif-israel-gaza-war-crimes https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/internati... If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are. If you're not willing to do that, it seems reasonable for the public to draw a proverbial negative inference.
- StefanBatory 2y agoNetanyahu I'm not surprised, but Gallant? EDIT: Asking genuinely on Gallant all I know is he was minister of defence and had a felling out with Netanyahu.
- jrochkind1 2y agoBeing the minister of defense gives you culpability for the military actions the ICC has decided are war crimes, I'd think? But I am not an expert in international law, just don't find it surprising.
- sofixa 2y agoYep, commanders are responsible for the actions undertaken by their troops. It's called Command responsibility or sometimes the Yamashita principle/doctrine, after a Japanese general who was executed for horrific crimes committed by troops not even under his command, but in his area of responsibility (they were naval troops in the Philippines, he was commander of the Philippines, the navy and the army hated each other; he pulled out of Manilla in order to wage war in favourable terrain, the naval infantry commander refused to follow him and fought a brutal urban battle that destroyed the city, and on purpose killed more than a hundred thousand civilians).
- sku11gat 2y agoSome Japanese officers take responsibility very seriously. >Hitoshi Imamura was a Japanese general who served in the Imperial Japanese Army during World War II, and was subsequently convicted of war crimes. Finding his punishment to be too light, Imamura built a replica of his prison in his garden and confined himself there until his death. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitoshi_Imamura https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitoshi_Imamura
- sofixa 2y agoMost just ordered horrific atrocities, their men to die, and then killed themselves.
- roody15 2y agoWhat is the point of the ICC? Russia doesn't recognize it, Israel doesn't recognize it and even the United States doesn't recognize it. I am confused at what these warrants even mean.
- tuvocoical 2y agoIn this case, to make a political statement against Israel and their leadership. Note that the only member of Hamas indicted, Mohammed Deif, will never see a day in court. As the ICC already knows, he was killed in an airstrike earlier this year.
- ktallett 2y agoSince there has been no proof of his death bar the announcements from Israel, it is sensible to consider him as a wanted man until there is concrete evidence he is dead.
- tuvocoical 2y agohttps://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/5077358-new-evidence-suggests-death-qassam-brigades-leader https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/5077358-new-evidence-s... Hamas sources have also confimed this.
- DasIch 2y agoIn practice these warrants mean that they cannot travel to any country that does recognize the ICC without being arrested, which means they almost certainly won't.
- jcranmer 2y agoJust like how Putin couldn't travel to, say, South Africa, after a warrant was issued for his arrest. Oh wait, South Africa declined to enforce the ICC arrest warrant in that case. I don't see this meaningfully constraining Netanyahu's foreign travel options.
- medo-bear 2y ago[flagged]
- bbqfog 2y agoIndeed. That Israel has been allowed to operate outside the bounds of international law and human rights will be studied for generations.
- flakeoil 2y agoThey wave with the "antisemitic" flag and no-one dares to object in fear of being called antisemitic. Just see the mayor of Amsterdam.
- IncreasePosts 2y ago[flagged]
- immibis 2y agoYes, basically McCarthyism. Did you see the USA bill where the Treasury secretary can unilaterally designate any nonprofit a "terrorist organization" and remove their funding?
- UselessNations 2y ago[flagged]
- bawolff 2y ago> The Chamber also noted that decisions allowing or increasing humanitarian assistance into Gaza were often conditional. They were not made to fulfil Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law or to ensure that the civilian population in Gaza would be adequately supplied with goods in need. In fact, they were a response to the pressure of the international community or requests by the United States of America. In any event, the increases in humanitarian assistance were not sufficient to improve the population’s access to essential goods. I don't understand why this would matter. Does it matter the rationale for increasing aid? I would think the only thing that should matter would be weather the aid was sufficient or not. (I appreciate in the end icc pretrial felt it wasn't enough , but i think that is the only thing that should matter) Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.
- toast0 2y agoThe rationale for supplying aid might not matter when the aid is sufficient. Although, coercive aid might still be a problem; I'm unfamiliar with international law on this. But when aid is not sufficient, I think rationale/intent makes more of a difference. If you're doing it for the right reasons and putting in a good effort, sufficiency may not be acheivable and it may not be right to charge you with not acheiving it. If you're only doing it to keep your friends happy, and it's insufficient, maybe there was more you could have done.
- ncr100 2y agoThe word intent is oftentimes used in The judicial system to measure culpability and punishment: whether somebody accidentally stabbed a person 90 times or intentionally stabbed the person 90 times, for instance, is captured via the concept of intent.
- vharuck 2y agoIsrael was expected, under international law, to unconditionally allow aid for the civilians. Israel used it as a bargaining chip, effectively holding civilians hostage.
- sigzero 2y ago[flagged]
- cenal 2y ago[flagged]
- chipolinapolina 2y ago[dead]
- icar 2y ago[flagged]
- bassrattle 2y ago[flagged]
- Qem 2y ago[flagged]
- rurp 2y agoThat hardly seems objective. Every single statement I saw on the homepage was anti-Israeli. This Israeli government has done any number of horrible things, but it's a complicated situation that is not at all summed up well by "Israel bad". Acting like Hamas hasn't committed awful atrocities or that everything Israel does is bad isn't going to help innocent civilians caught up in this mess.
- cwkoss 2y agoAre there any credible reports (not from US or Israel) of Hamas raping Israelis? I've always thought that was empty warmongering propaganda.
- AndrewVos 2y agoI assumed he was referring to the rapes committed by Israel against prisoners.
- bassrattle 2y agocorrect
- submeta 2y ago[flagged]
- tuyguntn 2y agoIf Netanyahu and Gallant declared as war criminals, does it also mean whoever helped them during the 2024 is complicit? Wondering what happens to so many Western leaders who supported Netanyahu unconditionally.
- GordonS 2y agoBiden/Harris, Starmer, Scholz and Macron have all been supplying Israel with arms, all whole knowing they are carrying out a genocide. The US has also had boots on the ground, and the UK has flown hundreds of spy and missions over Gaza. Meanwhile, they all give near carbon-copy press statements that read like they came straight from Israeli Hasbara. They have knowingly supported and aided Israel, and I hope more warrants are forthcoming. Come to think of it, plenty of journalists and media orgs are complicit too, such as the BBC.
- alexisread 2y agoTechnically yes, and a number of UK politicians are being mooted for investigation https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/23/criminal-complaint-alleges-uk-politicians-complicity-in-israeli-war-crimes https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/23/criminal-complaint-... Notably this admission by David Cameron, to knowledge of starvation is rather damning https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-67926799 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-67926799
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- elAhmo 2y agoLike the US congress giving an applause and a standing ovation.
- spacemadness 2y agoI wish. The US government has been an absolute disgrace in how we've handled support of Israel unflinchingly. I guess we didn't write enough sternly written letters while people were being forcibly starved to death.
- 2y ago
- nashashmi 2y agoTitle doesn’t mention any hamas official
- dang 2y agoI adopted the title of one of the news articles that were also submitted about this. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204632 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204632 for why.
- locallost 2y agoI doubt there will be actual arrests, but there will be and there are already consequences. I just saw France and Netherlands announced they will obey the warrants, thus Netanyahu can no longer travel there. Presumably the whole of EU is off limits (I am unaware which countries recognize the court).
- immibis 2y agoI expect Germany to declare the opposite. There is a small chance this incident fractures the European Union.
- locallost 2y agoI think Germany has already said it will respect the court's decision but disagrees with it.
- immibis 2y ago[flagged]
- locallost 2y agoWell there are competing forces pulling in different directions. So yes, but... at the same times at least officially, the rules are the rules for Germans. In reality what I learned from them living in Germany is that they will do their best to honor the letter of the law, by effectively doing the opposite. But at least on paper they will follow the rules.
- csomar 2y agoIf Europe (ie Germany) as a whole fails to enforce the warrant, the court is pretty much dissolved.
- spongebobism 2y agoCurrent opposition leader Friedrich Merz, who will probably win the snap elections in February, has even before the court ordered the warrant called for Germany not to obey it. But of course, it's easier to take strong stances when you're not part of that government that has to act on them yet. We'll see.
- gotoeleven 2y ago[flagged]
- magic_hamster 2y ago[flagged]
- 1024core 2y ago[flagged]
- hnax 2y ago[flagged]
- lupire 2y ago[flagged]
- AndrewVos 2y agoBecause a declaration of war is different to stating that a country committed war crimes.
- crazygringo 2y agoBecause nobody is invading Israel. Nobody's declaring war. The whole point of international law is to hold citizens of sovereign nations accountable, without having to go to war to achieve it. Nobody has legal authority to go into Israel to seize Netanyahu. But now he knows that if he tries to travel to Europe, he will be seized upon entry. That's not war, that's simply apprehending someone who there is an arrest warrant out for.
- abbe98 2y agoICC is not a UN organ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
- h_tbob 2y agoI don’t get why Israel waged war on Gaza instead of just going for the guy who ordered the attack. Any thoughts?
- yosefk 2y ago[flagged]
- maeil 2y ago[flagged]
- latentcall 2y agoOct. 7 was incredibly useful for Israel give it the casus belli to destroy resistance and settle Gaza. Lebanon will be the cherry on top. Why kill one guy when you can kill all resistance and (future possible) resistance and tada you have a bunch of land and can expand your borders.
- underdeserver 2y ago1200 dead including children and elderly. Useful. Are you serious?
- latentcall 2y agoYes I am serious. Obviously 1200 dead is sad. Disregarding the emotions, on an Israeli political level it IS useful to rally the country to finally handle the Palestine problem once and for all, which is what is happening right now.
- dotancohen 2y ago[flagged]
- underdeserver 2y agoI sincerely doubt it will be once and for all. It will only end once and for all when the Palestinians make a true effort to have peace based on 67 borders, and that's not happening any time soon.
- dismalaf 2y ago[flagged]
- croes 2y agoTwo parties can commit the same crime.
- ceejayoz 2y agoAccordingly, they issued similar warrants for (what's left of) Hamas leadership on the same day. https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-pre-trial-chamber-i-issues-warrant-arrest-mohammed-diab-ibrahim https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p... > Or that most aid is going through Israel itself because Egypt still has a blockade against Gaza. Israel very much prefers it that way. It's a very significant piece of leverage for them. They signed a treaty in 2007 requiring Israeli authorization of anything crossing the Egyptian crossings, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafah_Border_Crossing Israeli occupied it in May, too. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-07/israel-raid-closes-rafah-border-crossing-in-gaza-hamas-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-07/israel-ra...
- retskrad 2y ago[flagged]
- tartuffe78 2y agoMight be because we're funding this genocide ourselves...
- mirchibajji 2y agoThis is textbook whataboutism. I live in the UK. I'm outraged by how much time/money is spent on Israel and Ukraine issues than our own. Similar to yourself, I have to wonder why UK govt chose to help one side with weapons in these specific conflicts. The difference here is of course, protestors are there on their own free will (for the most part, I guess?), whilst I don't have a say in how my tax money is being used.
- Hikikomori 2y agoI mean if anyone is yo blame for the Israel situation it's the UK.
- mirchibajji 2y agoI mean, yes. I can understand why protests happen, because our own govt is not currently acting in our interests.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- peppers-ghost 2y agoOur tax money is funding these atrocities. I felt the same way about the genocide in Yemen. >Around the world, countless marginalized groups face equally dire or even worse conditions and would welcome similar support from these people I don't think this is true. The majority of people dying of or suffering from starvation on earth right now are in Gaza. >Yet, these so-called human rights advocates remain willfully ignorant of anyone or anything happening outside of the US and the Israel/Palestine conlflict. You have blinders on if you think this is the case. >Given this, how can anyone take these protesters seriously when they exhibit a groupthink mentality, lacking self-awareness or critical thinking, and behaving more like zombies than independent thinkers? I'd rather you didn't take us seriously if you're not going to fully understand our goals or reasons for our beliefs.
- ComputerGuru 2y agoFor context, this is only possible because the state of Palestine pushed hard and persisted for years to become an ICC member and thus give the ICC jurisdiction over crimes committed on Palestinian territory, whether by Israel or by Palestinian factions. The USA is still mad at them for doing it. The full account is worth reading, it includes considerations by the various resistance factions that they’d also be subject to ICC jurisdiction and realized threats of punitive measures by the USA and Israel if they continued to push for ICC membership: https://palepedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court%27s_jurisdiction_in_Palestine https://palepedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court%27s_...
- xenospn 2y ago[flagged]
- tdeck 2y agoYes. The PA is controlled by a party that staged a coup when Hamas won an election in Gaza and has been able to prevent elections since 2006.
- TeaBrain 2y agoThis doesn't serve as evidence that the PA would be willing to arrest Hamas members.
- vinay427 2y agoTo be fair, the GP comment asked what one thinks about the possibility, and the parent comment provided some limited grounding. It’s a bit difficult to provide concrete evidence for a hypothetical.
- ceejayoz 2y agoFatah and Hamas have engaged in open combat regularly. Willingness isn't really in question. Ability to do so is, though.
- seanvelasco 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago[flagged]
- giardini 2y agoHave they issued any warrants for Hamas leaders for the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel?
- isoprophlex 2y agoYes, for those that are still alive, that is indeed the case.
- dotancohen 2y ago[flagged]
- warrenmiller 2y agoYes. Read the posts
- ArnoVW 2y agothey have, at the same time, issued a warrant for Mohammed Diab Ibrahim Al-Masri, who is (or was) the commander of the armed part of Hamas. https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-pre-trial-chamber-i-issues-warrant-arrest-mohammed-diab-ibrahim https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...
- dotancohen 2y agoHe's been declared dead by both Israel and Hamas. How about the Hamas leaders living in Turkey? They were just kicked out of Qatar, and being in (semi-)European Turkey should be easier to arrest, no? Remember, these Hamas leaders in Turkey actually, really, call for explicit genocide - and carry out their actions.
- ArnoVW 2y agoIn law we generally prosecute those who are responsible according to the law. Not those who happen to be available so that we have someone to make pay. Not saying that there are undoubtedly more “bad people” than just him. But that’s not how law works.
- KameltoeLLM 2y ago[flagged]
- Yawrehto 2y ago[flagged]
- tehjoker 2y ago[flagged]
- Yawrehto 2y ago[flagged]
- taco_emoji 2y agoBoy it almost seems like we should look at what factors (apartheid state, oppression, etc.) led to the formation of Hamas
- ThinkBeat 2y agoI really don't think this belongs on the front page. It is a highly divisive political issue with strong radicalisation at the edges of any discourse on it. I have my own strong opinions on it, but arguing it does not in my opinon belong on the front page here. There are plenty of places you can go and have this discussion in as heated of a version as you prefer.
- 11101010001100 2y agoLegal issues seem to attract plenty of attention on HN. We could see what sort of precedent has been set.
- carb 2y agoI disagree. #1 this topic is not as divisive as it may seem. There is consensus as to what is happening and only a minority of the world thinks otherwise. #2 Israel is a major tech partner and most large tech companies have offices in Tel Aviv. Many startups that we discuss here are headquartered in Tel Aviv. The head of state of the country having an ICC arrest warrant and the situation at large have major consequences to the tech world and thus HackerNews users have a unique lens through which to have discourse. Discourse with an angle that you won't find elsewhere this is discussed.
- loeg 2y ago> There is consensus as to what is happening and only a minority of the world thinks otherwise. Well, that's obviously false. GP is right; this topic produces more heat than light.
- lynndotpy 2y agoThere is a strong but not unanimous consensus that Israel is committing war-crimes and enforcing an apartheid state in the territories it occupies. There is consternation over whether Israel's actions constitute genocide. That said, I think it's fair to assume that people from the US and other Israel-allied nations are disproportionately represented on Hacker News. So, we should not expect the global consensus to be reflected here. But I think think this topic both (1) is on topic for HackerNews given Israel's outsized prevalence in the tech industry, (2) has geopolitical implications that I think are worth discussing. Either way, HackerNews is an outlier in terms of the quality of the discussion, among social media or forums where people will argue both for and against Israel's actions. While I am very much on the "against Israel's actions" side, I do think there is value in this discussion, and so I am happy this topic is here on HackerNews.
- lenerdenator 2y ago[flagged]
- loeg 2y agoThe HN title says "and Hamas officials," but this appears nowhere in the article.
- guerrilla 2y agohttps://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-pre-trial-chamber-i-issues-warrant-arrest-mohammed-diab-ibrahim https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...
- djyaz1200 2y ago[flagged]
- megous 2y agoAre you asking why 5 million people don't just accept total subjugation to Israel and renounce all desire for self-determination as a nation? Let themselves be subjugated to permanent occupation and political persecution? All in all to a state that rejects Palestinian right to ever try Israelis for any and all crimes they do to them, including war crimes and crimes against humanity? (that's what even several EU states effectively argued before ICC, when challenging the jurisdiction of the court) Israel claims there will be no Palestinian state ever, because it's a percieved threat to Israel security. Knesset resolution claiming that was passed this year. And by that, for Israelis that's poof "no self-determination for 5 mil. people". No loss for Israelis, I guess in that. They'll not even let them be citizens of Israel, because democracy doesn't mean much to Israel. Israel has to be a Jewish state, not like half Jewish half Arab and soon majority arab looking at demographic growth... I don't know? Maybe they really don't want this, and don't know how to get out of that situation created by Jews and their European "allies" back in first half of last century in any other way. And please don't tell me you're presuming Israel to be the innocent and honest party in all this.
- djyaz1200 2y agoI don't think Israel is innocent by any means, their hands are dirty here obviously. I'm just trying to think out loud about a different way forward, and I tried to highlight my bias. I haven't seen a serious plan put forward for peace, and maybe the problem is not solvable.
- HDThoreaun 2y agoI generally agree with this take. The big problem with it is that the current and likely future israeli administrion(s) have as one of their largest goals the annexation of the west bank, not because of security but because they truly believe god gave them that land. IMO there is little reason to believe israelis will ever allow the palestinians full sovereignty in the west bank. So whats on the table for them in your situation? Probably giving up even more land in the west bank and the fear that israel can start a war to annex even more of it any time the israeli right wins an election. Which gets at the heart of the issue here, neither side has any reason to believe the other is negotiating in good faith, so negations can never really begin. Ive spent a decent amount of time in Israel and my observation is that the prospect for peace is incredibly dim.
- loceng 2y agodang, Any strange upvote/downvote activity going on in this thread? Watching my own replies votes going up and down, makes me think of the "THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT!" GIF: https://tenor.com/search/there-was-a-fire-fight-gifs https://tenor.com/search/there-was-a-fire-fight-gifs E.g. Going to 2 then down to 0, back up, back down and stabilizing again at 0; of course sophisticated coordinated activity will pace itself, even if across real users, as to not "waste their ammo" or be blatantly obvious; makes me wonder if there have been any studies analyzing this.. anywho. Back to life.
- cwkoss 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- 50208 2y agoI support these warrants.
- golemiprague 2y ago[flagged]
- iamleppert 2y ago[flagged]
- ignoramous 2y ago> Netanyahu is viewed as the messiah of the Jewish people I think there was a strong urge to portray him as the second coming of King David (the slayer of Goliath) after the assassinations of (other war criminals) Deif, Haniyeh, Nasrallah, Saifeddine, and Sinwar within 6 months of each other. > something about rebuilding a temple in Jerusalem No temple yet, but there's a valid religious claim should they choose to build one on the Rock. The main mosque is actually a few hundred meters removed from the Rock. > until he achieves the eradication of the Palestinian people he will not rest Think the political apparatus strives to control the demographics (for its own survival)? Eradication is one mechanism, but at 7 million Palestinians, they'd need to summon a World War esque scenario to pull it off. So, unlikely?
- giladamar 2y agoTo speak only to the factual claims and not any of your conclusions: Biblical Israel did not include any part of Egypt, nor does it contain all of Lebanon. It is concerning that you would claim this when the biblical map of Israel is a Google search away. Speaking as someone within the Jewish community, absolutely no one views Netanyahu as the messiah. You will find all sorts and views that are for or against, but none that he is some messiah. (I'm sure you could find some 5 cranks who do; you could also find 5 Christian cranks who believe the earth is flat. In that case it would never even occur to you to say that Christians believe the earth is flat.) The belief is that the temple will be rebuilt when the messiah comes. It has not, which is also something you could have googled. There is a tiny segment who wishes to make that happen now. The overwhelming majority see this as something that will happen in messianic times, not an instruction manual for the present. If you are this misinformed on points that are easily looked up I strongly suggest you seek information outside of whatever echo chamber you currently find yourself in.
- ckemere 2y agoJust to clarify - there is some technical correctness in this statement "Biblical Israel did not include any part of Egypt, nor does it contain all of Lebanon". I believe Genesis 15:18–21 says in "from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river [Euphrates]" (also see "map of Kingdom of King Solomon"). While this would suggest the "promised land" includes all the way to modern Iraq, it is true that most maps exclude the Phonecian areas around Tyre and Sidon. And the definition of "the wadi of Egypt" has been interpreted by some as the Nile, but I think this is mostly not believed. So it is most likely correct that "Biblical Israel does not contain ALL of Lebanon" and "did not include any part of Egypt", but this elides the fact that the Biblical narrative (not necessarily backed up by archeology) would extend into many neighboring countries. [edit] To clarify - I do believe that some Israelis are motivated by a desire to occupy "Biblical Israel", but the parent comment is (a) ridiculous and (b) attributes way to many grand motivations for Netanyahu than I think are supported by evidence. (Compared to "savvy politician who says things to get votes for selfish reasons.")
- ReptileMan 2y ago[flagged]
- elAhmo 2y agoSuch a ridiculous claim. Anyone against ICC is not a good guy.
- ReptileMan 2y agoI am not against ICC. I am against any above nation world wide idiocies. Hamas didn't do any crime against me on oct 7, Israel didn't do any crime against me afterwards, so the idea of some organization chasing after perpetrators in my name is absurd. Crimes against humanity is stupid concept. It has never had any kind of background grounded in anything resembling reality. ditto with UN - nations are anything but united. Now as talking heads it may have some worth, but to give this organization something like power (no matter how fake) is absurd.
- StriverGuy 2y agoThis does not belong on hacker news
- cwkoss 2y ago[flagged]
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- dotancohen 2y ago[flagged]
- cwkoss 2y ago[flagged]
- dotancohen 2y ago[flagged]
- JasserInicide 2y agoDiscussion about Trump winning had like 2k comments. There was also that Supreme Court ruling from earlier in the year about how presidents can't be held liable for criminal conduct or whatever. HN is almost certainly not the place for it. HN is a much better place than most of the Internet to discuss politics, this I know.
- ProllyInfamous 2y agoThank you for speaking truth, unlike these alleged world "leaders."
- dang 2y agoSome stories with political overlap have always been allowed here, just not too many of them. I posted elsewhere in this thread on this point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204739 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204739 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42204689
- nujabe 2y ago[flagged]
- tomohawk 2y ago[flagged]
- cwkoss 2y ago[flagged]
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y agoUm. I would take the hand-wringing a little more seriously if it were not for the fact that Israeli army is not exactly known for being super adherent to rules of engagement you suggest[1]. Please do note that this is US media saying this, which is already doing what it can to cover for Israel with oh so familiar talking points. << To say that to attack them after they do that is to invite prosecution is risable. Some of us do take issue with indiscriminately bombing a hospital to get one 'bad guy' or even ten 'bad guys'. Maybe it was more excusable when technology was less.. accurate, but it is very hard to argue that point when the country bombing said hospital is able to surgically explode pagers in Lebanon[2]. And Israel can't even take over a small enclave it almost completely cut off from the rest of the world? That is risable. And all this after massive US support both in blood in treasury. [1]https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human-shields-israel-military-gaza-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human... [2]https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz04m913m49o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz04m913m49o
- wslh 2y ago[flagged]
- rixed 2y agoAs a European, I find the reactions from the US politicians as related in this Al-Jazeera article quite choking : https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/21/how-us-politicians-responded-to-netanyahus-icc-arrest-warrant https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/21/how-us-politicians... But maybe biased though. Anyone would have a link to some more nuanced statements with officials who do not sounds just like thugs?
- anon291 2y ago[flagged]
- rendall 2y ago[flagged]
- csomar 2y agoThe ICC is not under the US control and thus the US sees it as a potentially dangerous organization and the fact that it is in Europe (an influential entity) doesn't make things any better. The US turned a blind eye on the ICC because it used to prosecute its enemies. Now that it's touching its agenda, it makes sense that they do not like it.
- majikaja 2y agoIf America doesn't do as Israel wants then Israel might side with another country. And they know they'll be facing allegations themselves for helping to enable the situation.
- rixed 2y agoReplying to the "dead" comment below (I wish HN killed only spam comments): > Mainly because i feel the rest of the world lives in a Disneyland like state of fake security that is guaranteed by the United States and never has to contend with the actual reality of the world. > The actual realities of statehood say the ICC is a joke. > As for your contention of thuggery.. again, referencing my Disneyland allegation... Thuggery is the basis of statehood and if that makes you uncomfortable, it's because you've been raised in Pax Americana. > It's really time most countries started paying tribute to the United States, but I do understand the strategic benefit of magnanimity. I get this viewpoint. Basically, the idea is that humans can only exist as a society of thugs, and everything else is just fairy tales. In that theory, the best possible outcome is achieved when one of the thugs is much more powerfull than all others, thus enforcing "some" order. Therefore, we should all pay tribute to it. I have issues with that theory though. Firstly, I do not believe it. Secondly, even if I did I would consider it a moral duty to still fight it for the small chance it's false. A finally, it does not say what to do in a situation like today when the former bigger thug is becoming weaker and is challenged by the competition. Are we supposed to wait patiently underground the next 20 years until the next contender takes the throne? There is another theory, according to which human societies _evolve_ as any organism do. It can actually be shown that humans did tame themselves, and became less aggressive/more cooperative after tens of thousands of years of living cooperatively, first in small scale then in larger and larger scale. I take everyone's repulsion against the current state of affairs, or against any sociopathic bahavior for that matter, as another hint of this. We _did_ evolve out of a primitive condition where there was no conceivable human made law or justice into a society where the rule of law was just a trick, into a condition where the rule of law was desirable, and possibly one day into a condition where the rule of law appears natural. I believe the cynical viewpoint that you expressed, and that I share sometimes when my mood is low, is actually the fantasy.
- bluSCALE4 2y agoThis is exciting. Is there precedence for this? What should we expect?
- jmward01 2y agoReading the comments in this thread and reflecting on history a bit, the thought that comes to mind is that this is less a trial for the defendants and more a trial of the ICC and more broadly international institutions and their true independence, effectiveness and ultimately, relevance.
- megous 2y agoReflecting on the history a bit... If you think that trying some head of a small thuggish state, founded by its unilateral declaration of sovereignty over someone else's land, while already cleansing it of unruly natives, and terrorizing British officials for years both in Palestine and internationally (like with assassination campaigns and embassy bombings), that dug its own hole over decades into ethno-supremacy based and messianically driven conflict with Palestinians, will in any way degrade legitimacy of a court and treaty joined by 125 sovereign states (with almost all "western" ones included), then you're deluding yourself. Especially when he's being explicitly tried for his role in ensuring that children have to suffer amputations and women get c-sections without anesthesia (among other things), which has nothing to do with defense of Israel. If anything ICC standing rose a bit in many people's eyes today, slightly above the "court for african warmongers only", where it was previously.
- jmward01 2y agoThere is definitely an argument that the ICC's actions showed independence. I was trying to imply that in what I wrote. Maybe I need to be a little more clear. If nothing happens, these warrants go away, no sort of trial happens, etc etc, then it is likely that the ICC will be seen as increasingly irrelevant and ineffective. It is still likely to be viewed that way even if a trial does actually go forward but definitely if this just dies away quietly I suspect many will see the organization as nothing but a tool that some governments get to use when they want, and not an impartial check on international actions. I tried not to imply anything about the warrants, the people they are for or the events they are in response to because my discussion point was about the ICC and not the defendants.
- gip 2y ago[flagged]
- rendall 2y ago[flagged]
- 3vidence 2y agoAm I the only one who thinks it's completely justified for leaders of both sides to be wanted for war crimes?? If someone assaults me and I retaliate by injuring their family members then both the assilant and me are both guilty for criminal assault. Maybe not a perfect analogy but that's what it seems has happened here...
- adultSwim 2y agoWarrants were issued for leaders on both sides. Also, the situation has structural asymmetries that are important to navigate.
- tacheiordache 2y agoNo but this opinion is unjustifiably considered antisemitic and you couuld potentially have unwanted repercussions e.g. lose your job if you make it public. Such are the times we live in.
- 3vidence 2y agoFor context, I'm not American and I would have trouble understanding how this could be conceived as antisemitic?? Also mentioned in another comment I do believe Isreal has a right to defend itself but not to commit war crimes against civilians... that seems to be the issue here.
- maronato 2y agoIt’s weaponized antisemitism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponization_of_antisemitism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponization_of_antisemitis...
- rasz 2y agoSure, like bullied kid getting suspended because all this trouble is because of him.
- 3vidence 2y ago
- rajup 2y ago[flagged]
- maskil 2y agoIsolating Netanyahu like this will only lead to a hardening of the Israeli position because he now truly has nothing to lose
- temptemptemp111 2y ago[dead]
- botanical 2y ago[flagged]
- JamesAdir 2y agoThe ICC doesn't mention any genocide, so what's the basis for your claim?
- Yeul 2y agoThis leads to a bit of a conundrum for the Netherlands. It is the home of the ICC and officially a big sponsor of international justice. But also the right wing government has a hard on for Israel. I don't think that our esteemed ancestors ever envisioned white people to end up in court... The leader of the PVV (biggest political party) is going to visit colonial settlers in Israël. Many immigrants hate Israel. Official state policy is a two state solution. The relocation of the Dutch embassy to Jerusalem. You could make a Netflix TV show about this. May we all live interesting times!
- ashoeafoot 2y agoA whole cladde of people here who collectively decided that the politics of the outside and the ugly that came from it does not matter anymore, specialising in the interior design of society with the most horrid weapon being a social ostracizing. The idea that building could pancake under artillery fire from the vacuum just is not part of reality and now papertiger hissy fits from the windows .
- sharpshadow 2y agoHopefully he gets arrested that would fulfill me with joy and laughter. But realistically nobody was and probably will be able to humble Netanyahu, he is a above the ladder psychopath.
- rendall 2y ago[flagged]
- rendall 2y ago[flagged]