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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

• bartvk 2y ago
  https://archive.ph/9oIT4 https://archive.ph/9oIT4 I wish it would have adjusted for inflation. One quote: "The average transaction price for a new vehicle sold in the U.S. last month was $48,623, according to Kelley Blue Book, roughly $10,000 higher than in 2019, before the pandemic." However, about 9200 euros of that is due to inflation according to this calculator: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ That's a nitpick though. All in all, an interesting article, which can be summarized as: the EV car market is lacking demand, and car makers definitely don't want to make cheap EVs since it's already so hard.
  • rootusrootus 2y ago
    > the EV car market is lacking demand There is scant evidence for this. Every time prices improve, sales surge. Sounds like the demand is there, but price matters. As it always has.
    • cosmic_cheese 2y ago
      Yep. Midrange-to-expensive EVs have been around for long enough that pretty much everybody in those market segments who are currently interested have already bought one. Additionally, the segment has been flooded with midsize SUVs, with the odd midsize sedan — variety is sorely lacking. Between these two, quite a considerable market is being left unaddressed. The first to fill these niches with affordable models that don’t have weird quirks or make strange tradeoffs will likely do well.
      • wlesieutre 2y ago
        I'm hoping for manufacturers to pull back on the "all controls are via touchscreen" and "you can't have carplay because we want to charge you our own monthly fees" trends. Taking Chevy for example, they have physical HVAC controls, but they're counting on the average consumer being too clueless to realize they only have Google Maps in their car because it came with a free OnStar trial. Eventually people are going to notice that they spent $1000+ to buy the larger screen upgrade, and now Chevy wants them to shell out $300/year forever to be able to use it for maps. The other big unknown is lifespan of car software platforms, if these end up being like phones where they get laggier and laggier with continued software updates, until eventually it's unusable, people aren't going to be happy about it. But we won't know for 15 years exactly how bad that problem is.
        • cosmic_cheese 2y ago
          The trend to exclude CarPlay and/or Android Auto really is awful. Not only is there a high risk of notoriously underpowered head units becoming increasingly laggy over time with updates, there’s also the risk of the automaker deciding that shipping new updates for your only slightly old EV is too much of a cost to bear and dropping support, making the head unit slowly become more and more useless over time as apps stop running. CarPlay/Android Auto is an excellent hedge against both of those scenarios, even if one prefers the onboard experience. It never hurts to have an escape hatch.
          • renewedrebecca 2y ago
            Indeed. I won't buy a car that doesn't support CarPlay.
          • wlesieutre 2y ago
            "Escape hatch" is exactly how I describe it. I don't care how good a car's screens are today, I know they get software updates and I don't trust them to not screw it up down the road. Yeah, we could go back to suction cup phone mounts on the windshield if we had to, but that feels pretty stupid when the car has a 12" screen in the dashboard.
      • KptMarchewa 2y ago
        >with the odd midsize sedan — variety is sorely lacking Sedans are nothing. Just barely, finally, after all those years, we have electric kombis - VW ID.7 Tourer and Audi A6 Avant e-tron.
      • matthewdgreen 2y ago
        A big part of that market is being addressed by used EVs, which are getting much cheaper right now as they age out of new-car-buyers' households. https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/used/tesla https://www.kbb.com/cars-for-sale/used/tesla
        • JohnFen 2y ago
          I wouldn't buy a used EV because the battery pack is that much closer to needing to be replaced, which effectively totals the vehicle.
          • IneffablePigeon 2y ago
            One could say the same about a combustion engine, really. Battery packs last way, way longer than most people think because they analogise it to phone batteries which are quite different. The resale value of a degraded pack is also going to be higher than most people assume, I think. Unfortunately we have not had plentiful EVs with good battery packs for long enough to show this to the average consumer.
            • _huayra_ 2y ago
              I guess the question comes down to how does one know if the battery pack is good? When I buy a regular used gas car, I can get all sorts of diagnostics about it out of the OBD2 port, pull a spark plug and stick a scope into the combustion chamber to see if there's any issues (e.g. on the walls). With an electric car, how can one tell if the pack has been charged all the way up to 100% all the time (vs. the much better 40-70% range)? This is the "term premium" of batteries it seems, and I honestly don't know if there's a reliable answer.
              • lutorm 2y ago
                At least on our PHEV, when you read out the battery module state with an OBDII reader, you get to know not only the current estimated capacity but also how much time it's spent at various states of charge, how much time it's spent being charged and discharged at different currents, how much time it's spent at different temperatures, and a completely absurd amount of other diagnostics. I'd feel a lot better about the state of the battery if I bought one used, rather than the state of the ICE. It's possible to borescope it, but you have no way of telling how long the previous owner went between oil changes, if they flogged it out to redline regularly, etc.
      • JKCalhoun 2y ago
        > The first to fill these niches with affordable models... And is not tariffed to the point they are not competitive. I'm on the fence as to whether tariffs are good or bad, but I do wonder if an external player might not be able to come in and shake up the US auto industry. I feel like the working class in the U.S. are paying way too much for what amounts to a necessity for their livelihood: the automobile. We'd all benefit (the planet that is) if the options included inexpensive electrics rather than merely gas and diesel.
        • DCH3416 2y ago
          What would really help the working class is building out actual forms of transportation beyond private automobiles. That way we're not subject to a single point of failure in our ability to move around. Maybe warm up to the idea of ebikes for getting around town, and bring back some trams for city to city connections. Then you can free up the roads for actual useful transit. The US is one crisis away from our expensive to maintain road infrastructure being unsustainable. The American people are one crisis away from their $60k SUV being worth nothing and still owing a four figure note against it. They're also one fuel crisis away from being unable to pay to use it. And we don't really have any alternatives at a scale to handle those sorts of things. We're really going to have egg on our face at some point. And the only option will be to import affordable EVs the rest of the world has been building and developing.
        • cosmic_cheese 2y ago
          Economics is not my field, but I’d reason that tariffs can be useful if they’re used as a scalpel instead of as a sledgehammer. So for example, if the goal is to stimulate domestic automakers to be more competitive without unnecessarily risking killing them off entirely, a moderate tariff that pushes the price of ultra cheap foreign cars up to a level that’s reasonably achievable by the domestic automakers but still well below the average price could be a good thing. Where tariffs are just plain bad is when they’re so high that domestic manufacturers don’t even have to think about trying to compete and can continue to drive up prices unabated.
          • JKCalhoun 2y ago
      • rconti 2y ago
        My aunt and uncle have a couple of Teslas (at different homes, I think). We have one as well. They're looking at replacing one with another EV, so she was probing me for options, and then also said "I can't help but notice your recent vehicle purchases have not been EVs. Hmm.." I don't get it. We already have an EV. Why would I buy more EVs? The one that gets commuted in every day is already in our driveway. It already does the work. It doesn't need replacing, or adding to. I'm a car person. There are so many cars I want to own in my life, so much to experience. I will admit I briefly considered buying a 10 year old BMW i3 BEV because it seemed like a fun runabout for not much money, but most of the _other_ EVs on the market serve the "practical" market, or are too expensive. I bought a Fiat 500 Abarth because it's an absolute insane hoot to drive. I bought a roadster. These are not exactly markets served by EVs. At the very least, we need another decade or two of sales to build up the inventory of interesting/unique/quirky models that get introduced by manufacturers over time. But mostly, I want something fun to drive with character- a nice gearshift, an exhilarating powerband, ... not another competent appliance. We have a competent appliance at home. The EV market isn't saturated, but just because an EV owner doesn't serially buy EVs doesn't mean the shine has come off. It just means the 100,000 mile, 6 year old Model 3 does exactly what it did the day we bought it, and there's no reason to replace it.
        • cosmic_cheese 2y ago
          I hear you on the lack of diversification in models available. I’d really love to see an EV that’s in line with the virtues of the Honda Fit, Honda Element, and Toyota Matrix — not sexy or fancy, but cheap, insanely practical little “everything cars” that can take on anything you throw at them with tons of cargo space, fold flat seating, stock roof rack, etc — cars that are made for doing things instead of impressing the neighbor or acting as a status symbol. There’s absolutely nothing like this in the EV space right now. The closest thing that’s upcoming is Rivian’s R3, which isn’t likely to be as cheap as the Fit/Element/Matrix were.
          • rconti 2y ago
            I do think that the i3 is the one that fits best here. But being an all carbon fiber structure, being 2-10 years old, being a BMW, I understand there are a lot of strikes against it here when people think "cheap small economical car with a lot of space inside". It's such a shame Honda won't sell the e here. I'm not going to say "I'd buy one in a second" because I'm not paying new car prices for one, but I wouldn't have bought a Fit new either. And yet, people bought the Fit new. And I'd happily buy a used Fit, it was actually on my runabout shopping list as well. (Fit with a manual trans).
    • blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      I guess I don’t understand the advantage of EVs really. Isn’t a plug in hybrid the best option? You can do everyday short trips on battery but also have the gas engine for longer trips. Sure it is more complicated but Toyota has shown that you can make this super reliable.
      • bryanlarsen 2y ago
        You're never going to a hybrid under $25,000. Pretty much everywhere but the US has the option of getting an electric car for under $25,000 from BYD or Renault. I've done over 20,000 km in road trips in an EV. You charge while you're eating or toileting or sleeping, it doesn't affect my trips.
        • rootusrootus 2y ago
          I agree, the range has rarely been a problem for me. The battery runs out of juice about the time my butt needs a break, my bladder needs emptying, and my stomach needs filling. By the time I'm done with lunch, I'm good for another 250-300 miles, and I'm going to stop for the night at that point anyway. People doing >500 miles per day on a roadtrip are the outliers. Way, way outliers.
          • M4rkJW 2y ago
            I drive home from Virginia to Florida in a single day, typically with one stop at the Florence, SC Buc-ee's. That's nearly 600 miles (in a gas RAV4). I do this a couple times a year and it takes about 9 hours, less if there's no cops.
        • renewedrebecca 2y ago
          Out of curiosity, how long are those trips though? In the US and probably Canada, there's an expectation that spending 8 hours in one day going somewhere is easily doable. (as in 800 km in 8 hours with a few 10-30 minute breaks for gasoline or food). It doesn't seem like that's a particularly normal thing for a European to do.
    • ToucanLoucan 2y ago
      Because demand isn't the issue. The issue is a new car that isn't a budget brand is increasingly a luxury option in the United States, because, and say it with me... Wages have been stagnant in the United States for nearly 50 years. Every economic stat right now points to this as the core issue. Consumers are squeezed more on every last good and service, tons of services are now only available via subscriptions which inherently cost more, and despite the economy supposedly (and, actually) booming in a lot of ways, that doesn't hardly at all make it's way down to the workers either via higher wages, or via cheaper products. This is a complicated situation that doesn't lend itself well to comments but a number of the bigger datapoints include an employment market that favored employers for the majority of the time since the 70's, the ongoing slandering not to mention outright interference on the part of employers against labor organizing, "inflation" that when you scratch the surface is just companies charging more because they can, the ongoing consolidation of enterprise resulting in monolithic companies that own dozens of brands of the same product, none of which truly compete on price, on and on and on. There are a ton of good reasons for Americans to be broke, and a number of prominent economists have been ringing alarm bells for decades now that all of these things coming together is going to stall the economy cold and send us into the... by my count, fourth once-in-a-lifetime economic crisis I've experienced.
      • MrHamburger 2y ago
        So if people would have money, there would be a demand. His point still stands.
        • ToucanLoucan 2y ago
          I mean I think the distinction between "goods that are not wanted" and "goods that are wanted but are not affordable" is a significant one, but if you want to stick strictly to the terms of art in economics, then yes I suppose you're correct. And I didn't mean to argue his point, but rather to reinforce it. If goods, when they become cheaper, suddenly start moving again, then the goods themselves aren't really the issue. And I mean, this is exactly 100% my experience currently. Our sedan could use replacement, it's about to hit the 200k miles mark, and given it's primarily used by my wife for inter-town transit, I would happily buy her an electric car, but a new electric car is hopelessly out of our reach financially. And I make six figures!
    • vundercind 2y ago
      I can't make great use of a full EV but would love more AWD PHEV options, of which there are currently few and they're mostly very expensive. A PHEV can be my everything-car that runs entirely on electricity for 90% of trips. I assume there's some reason they're not a more widely-supported option, but damn, I wish they were more common.
      • f1refly 2y ago
        Maybe because PHEV are a really dumb idea? You're lugging around two complete powertrains the whole time, a massive waste of energy!
        • kube-system 2y ago
          Not really. PHEVs are usually one-and-a-half drivetrains at most. They're almost never as complicated as a separate BEV and ICE drivetrains would be individually.
          • redwall_hp 2y ago
            They don't typically have a full transmission or CVT either. Taking the new hybrid Civic for example: it just has a basic planetary gearbox that handles forward, reverse and highway cruising. Any time you're not at highway cruising speed, it's just in the normal position where the electric motor drives it (the engine only functions as a generator). It's effectively an electric car with a small, far under provisioned in Civic terms, engine that comes on to top the battery up sometimes if regen braking isn't enough. At highway speeds, the gearbox has the engine drive. And since it's a less powerful engine, it will have better fuel economy than one that has to ever handle acceleration from a standstill. And the whole thing weighs about 3200-3400lb, far less than any electric vehicle. So you're "lugging" around less.
            • floxy 2y ago
              The "S" trim of the current Nissan Leaf (with the 40 kwh battery) weighs 3509 lbs. https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf https://www.autopadre.com/vehicle-weight/nissan-leaf
    • jillesvangurp 2y ago
      It's actually growing at around 20% year on year, this year. World wide. The EU is the exception. Mostly because Germany is struggling. Everywhere else, EVs are growing pretty nicely.
      • creshal 2y ago
        German manufacturers also seem to struggle the most with the whole "the cheaper your products are, the more customers can afford them" concept.
  • AgentOrange1234 2y ago
    If even ICE cars are now super expensive, why isn’t this a screaming opportunity for some auto manufacturer to target the low end of the market? I’ve never spent more than 20k for a car. With prices like this, I’m just going to keep my old one as long as I can.
    • wyre 2y ago
      My understanding is that because cars are generally purchased rarely, they make more money with the status quo instead allowing customers a budget option.
      • criddell 2y ago
        Budget options are out there but consumer demand for them is weak. Americans love their cars and seem to be willing to pay for a lot more car than they need.
        • bluGill 2y ago
          Which would you buy - a brand new car with no options, or for the same price a three year car with all the options. Or you can go cheaper yet with a 10 year old car with all the options of 10 years ago. Anything other than the most luxurious car doesn't make sense for anyone to build in general because people who want to pay less are willing to settle for a used car. If cars only lasted 3 years instead of the 20+ they do today (average car is 12 years old), there would be demand for cars that don't even have a heater by people who want to save money.
    • bluedino 2y ago
      Kia sells quite a few cars that start at $20k, like the Soul and Forte
      • wlesieutre 2y ago
        Quite a few $20k ish, though only the Forte actually making it under that. Forte LX starting at $19,900. Of course that's without without the $1,155 "destination" fee, so even the Forte really starts at $21,145. But considering inflation, $21k isn't a bad price.
  • navane 2y ago
    Is the car 10k more expensive because of inflation or is the inflation so high because the car costs 10k more?
    • coding123 2y ago
      yes
    • rootusrootus 2y ago
      Is it actually $10K more expensive? The F150 Lightning I just bought was cheaper than the hybrid version I was looking at buying. The Tesla Model 3 & Y seem to be priced pretty competitively, as well.
    • peab 2y ago
      I had the same thought. You can actually look up the inflation data by category: https://www.perplexity.ai/search/find-me-the-cpi-inflation-data-hk6zkqNORYysx4AFqxUDtQ https://www.perplexity.ai/search/find-me-the-cpi-inflation-d... New cars actually match the total average inflation the closest of any categories (22.3% for new cars vs 22.1% all items). Also interesting to note that food is up 30.7%, transport is up 39.5 % and shelter is up 27.6% in the past 5 years!
    • jerf 2y ago
      One of the best understandings of inflation is to use the mathematical concept of "equality" on those. They're two ways of phrasing the same thing. A lot of people do a lot of bad thinking when they say "oh, well, inflation is umptybumpkins percent, so the fact that cars are that much more expensive is 'just' inflation, and thus isn't anything". But inflation is prices going up. When the various sources release "how large inflation is", they are telling you "this is how much prices went up". Ignoring prices going up because "oh, the prices went up because of inflation" is basically using the thing's own existence to argue that it doesn't exist, which, while abstractly sort of impressive, is not strong thinking. There are some arguments about what causes prices to go up, but that's a separate question.
      • Majromax 2y ago
  • jmward01 2y ago
    Privacy is in my top two concerns for EVs (and any vehicle purchase I make). I am increasingly avoiding every privacy destroying option out there, be it cars or services in general. It is, unfortunately, becoming nearly impossible to be privacy aware but the more resistance people put up the better chance we have of maintaining some privacy.
    • worik 2y ago
      > Privacy is in my top two concerns for EVs Yes. But it does rue out every single modern car on the market. Very frustrating
      • jmward01 2y ago
        I always buy used so I have some time left, but not much. When I bought my last vehicle the person had one of those insurance GPS devices in it. I can't even begin to understand why anyone would do that. It is so obviously going to be used against the driver and it is also obvious that it will eventually become 'required' and that just depresses me.
        • aqfamnzc 2y ago
          Money. The insurance company gives a discount. And honestly, for someone who doesn't share my same strong values for privacy, I don't blame them!
          • jmward01 2y ago
            The point about the insurance GPS is that they will eventually use it against the person. 'You were going 5mph over the speed limit before the crash...' that kind of thing. Giving them more information will just lead to the consumer being hurt. Oh, and they will clearly sell that info to anyone they can get to buy it of course. That part isn't great either.
            • HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  • torginus 2y ago
    I honestly don't get it - the median income in the US is like $35k - assuming people don't want to drive vehicles older than a decade, do people really spend a sixth of their total income on cars? In Europe the numbers are even worse. I'm fairly convinced only rich people and businesses buy new cars
    • epistasis 2y ago
      A lot of people buy used cars rather than new cars. The wealthiest buy the new cars, eat the cost of most of the depreciation, then sell them. If we had a functioning housing market, you'd see something pretty similar there too. The wealthiest would be the ones paying for nearly all the new construction, instead of driving up the cost of housing for everyone else.
    • vel0city 2y ago
      Median incomes of single earners get pretty skewed from people willingly working part-time or low-income jobs as secondary income instead of primary income. I usually prefer analyzing things on household income for this reason. Think a grandpa working a part-time gig as a greeter at Walmart while going back to a multi-generational household or a stay-at-home parent working a part-time remote call center job while the kids are in school or a teenager working a part-time job. All of these positions would pull pretty small amounts of overall yearly income but chances are they're not the sole source of wealth/income they have access to. The median household income is ~$75k. There's ~131M households in the US. This means there are 65M households making more than $75k/yr. But yes, generally speaking wealthier people are the ones buying new cars with a lot of people buying used models.
    • hansvm 2y ago
      > do people really spend a sixth of their total income on cars Yes. It's a huge expense for a lot of Americans. Either the primary expense, or just behind housing. > assuming people don't want to drive vehicles older than a decade That's not a great assumption, especially if you're looking at people with less money. The normal lifespan of a car is 15-25yrs, and _somebody_ is driving those cars. As you suspect though, the flow of new vehicles largely goes into wealthier people (average incomes in the $100k range), and after 6-10yrs the used cars trickle down to everyone else and live ~20yrs in total. There exist a number of exceptions (e.g., people getting a new car for reliability and not realizing that you could replace the engine and transmission three times over for the extra premium they're paying -- trying to do the right thing and make a fiscally responsible decision but accidentally doing something more expensive), but those aren't the norm.
  • jillesvangurp 2y ago
    Lack of demand is the conventional explanation. But I think it is a bit of lazy and misleading one. I think there's plenty of demand for cheap EVs. But there's a problem with US manufacturing not being able to deliver those. Supply chains aren't there. Manufacturing capability and capacity isn't there. Etc. And of course the EV market is still actually growing in the US. It's just that companies like Tesla, Kia/Hyundai, and other foreign companies with factories in the US are picking up the slack left by the likes of GM, Ford, Stellantis, etc. Protectionism in the form of tariffs and incentives is making things worse. It's temporarily succeeding at keeping competition out of the door but it's failing at making local industry more competitive. Especially in the international market where US companies enjoy neither the benefits of import tariffs nor incentives. They have to compete on merit with the likes of BYD there. And that's obviously going to cause some issues. Dropping incentives and tariffs would obviously be short term disruptive but I don't think it changes the outcome long term. Which is that GM either catches up or falls over (wouldn't be the first time). Either way, them delaying investments in EVs is not a sign of them adapting. Same for Ford, which has the same problem and is doing the same. Same for Stellantis. They are favoring short term profits over a long term plan. That's because protectionism is temporarily excusing them from having to compete. That's not something they can dodge long term. Somebody will step up if it is not them.
    • Pxtl 2y ago
      > I think there's plenty of demand for cheap EVs. But there's a problem with US manufacturing not being able to deliver those. How much of that has to do with the USA's extreme needs for range and size? There are places I'd be happy to drive a subcompact with a 300km range (eg. the Byd Dolphin), but most of the USA that kind of vehicle wouldn't be safe or practical. That's an awful lot of expensive battery-mass the Byd Dolphin doesn't have to pay for.
      • jillesvangurp 2y ago
        > How much of that has to do with the USA's extreme needs for range and size? Very little as far as I can see; this is a simple lack of competition. Most of the really long range vehicles are super premium products that are sold in relatively low numbers to people who can afford them rather than to people that need that kind of range (or rather thing that they do, it is a bit irrational in many cases). Most US manufacturers simply compensate their lack of efficiency with more battery and cost. It allows them to keep up with e.g. Tesla and Kia in terms of range. So, they'll put in 85kwh instead of 65kwh. Or even more. Same range but at a higher cost. But of course the flip-side is that Tesla can just effortlessly undercut their pricing whenever they are having surpluses. They sell the same cars for much less abroad. It's also telling that Tesla has sold more Cybertrucks last quarter than all other EV trucks combined. It's not a very practical truck. But it looks cool. They've barely even started to ramp up production and they are already running circles around their competitors. No sign of a lack of demand there. Lots of signs of an outclassed competition that is simply not able to keep up.
• aprilthird2021 2y ago
  Something has to disconnect here. Everyone complains that everything costs so much, but the average Americans' paycheck is not rising the same way, so they can try all they want to sell $95k electric vehicles because of thin margins for cheaper products, but if purchasing power doesn't rise with inflation, then that market that "sucks" is going to be the only real market one day...
  • deadbabe 2y ago
    Increasingly expensive products are afforded through innovations in financing.
  • warner25 2y ago
    Yeah, I think the pendulum swings back and forth. My recollection of the 2007-2009 recession, with $4 gas and the failure of GM, was that it spurred a lot of interest and innovation in smaller, more efficient, economy cars after many years of the automakers pushing (and people buying) larger and less efficient trucks and SUVs. I think we're at an extreme point in the cycle again now with American automakers all but abandoning the compact and midsize economy car segments. At some point, things will dry up and they'll need to compete with the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic again.
    • 9x39 2y ago
      I think you're right about pendulums here, but we might be about to see a US auto maker vs China auto maker inflection point like I read about in the 1980s with US vs Japan. I watching this video which lays out some fundamental diffs between US companies, like GM and Chinese companies, like BYD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXvcwM977D0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXvcwM977D0 * Short term vs long term focus * .gov subsidies stronger in key markets in CN * CN companies extremely rapid in development (as low as 1.5 yr vs 6 yr in the US) * Lower wages and input costs Things will probably have to get worse before they get worse. Corporate people know the machine (public traded US auto makers) keeps lumbering forward without change until it can't, and all handouts, bailouts, and other tricks have been played.
• jogjayr 2y ago
  Money quote: “As automakers were profit maximizing during the supply chain crisis era, you are going to prioritize the bigger vehicles, the more expensive vehicles with their higher margins,” Tyson Jominy, vice president of data and analytics at J.D. Power, told me. “Now we just don’t have” these cheaper models.
  • lenerdenator 2y ago
    Ding ding ding. We have a winner. There's a bunch of free riders in the form of shareholders artificially driving up the price of goods.
    • Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >There's a bunch of free riders in the form of shareholders artificially driving up the price of goods. Isn't this a natural consequence of capitalism in entrenched industries?
      • lenerdenator 2y ago
        Why yes. Yes it is. Which is why you don't put shareholders first in line for revenues.
      • achierius 2y ago
        Yeah, I think that's the point they were trying to make.
  • mobilene 2y ago
    This. Yep, automakers have deliberately gone after higher profit margins per vehicle. Huge-volume, lower-cost cars are slowly going away. Get one while you can, if that's your thing.
    • engineer_22 2y ago
      US Congress has mandated a growing list of advanced features, leading to complex vehicles, complex supply chains, and higher sticker prices.
• ChumpGPT 2y ago
  People who can afford to buy brand new, does it matter if there is a 25k EV? People that buy used, can get a cheap electric car like a 2023 Tesla M3 with approx. 50k miles going for 20-24k on Hertz Rental Car sales site. If you want a better price, just wait until 2026, when the 250k leases come due. There will be a flood of used electric cars on the market.
  • tirant 2y ago
    Currently in Europe right now the smart purchase is on second hand EVs. Depreciation is extremely high (mainly fueled by fear of second hand batteries), so you can get an EV equivalent to an ICE counterpart for around 30-40% less money (Golf vs ID3; BMW iX vs X5; Model 3 vs BMW 330i/340i). If I was in the market for a second hand car I would go electric for sure.
• yapyap 2y ago
  I doubt a cheap american electric car is the real withering dream with people not being able to put a roof over their head
  • burnt-resistor 2y ago
    The American dream would have both. Unfortunately, while BYD would be the most readily-available option for cheap cars, it would need: homologation, distributors, parts suppliers, repeal of the protectionist tariffs protecting Tesla, and the removal of Musk from an unfair position of power, influence, and regulatory capture, and whatever the heck DOGE will be. The larger issue is that, in order to afford housing, a car, and a life, regular American workers need to be paid livable wages to keep up with the inflation "pay cut" and reverse decades of sliding standards of living through lower and suppressed real wages.
    • solardev 2y ago
      American Dream? At this point I'd settle for some reasonable chance that I'd be able to still rent an apt and put food on the table next year, nevermind actually owning anything or ever retiring, lol. I'll be squarely in the have-not camp, eager to serve our rich robot-assisted overlords.
    • vel0city 2y ago
      Americans already thought the Bolt was far too small and had far too little range. BYD's cheap EVs like the Seagull are even smaller and have less range.
• worik 2y ago
  > “I think having a regular $25,000 model is pointless,” Musk said a few weeks ago. “It would be silly.” ROTFLMAO! Says the richest person in existence. What an entitled nasty person.
  • 015a 2y ago
    While he did say that, its worth pointing out that Tesla also said that more affordable options will be available in 2025H1 [1]. Given Musk's statement, what I think Tesla means by this is more affordable trims of existing models. I don't think its reasonable to read Musk's statement as "the Model 2 isn't happening". Its more accurate to read it as "it might cost more than $25,000". [1] https://fortune.com/2024/10/24/tesla-model-2-affordable-car-2025-elon-musk/ https://fortune.com/2024/10/24/tesla-model-2-affordable-car-...
    • ceejayoz 2y ago
      > its worth pointing out that Tesla also said that more affordable options will be available in 2025H1 Sure, but they've been saying full self driving is "next year" for a decade in a row. I take that with a large grain of salt. https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-next-year-for-th-1848432496 https://jalopnik.com/elon-musk-promises-full-self-driving-ne...
      • 015a 2y ago
        Absolutely; but it is at least indicative of the direction Tesla is taking. It might be the end of 2025, 2026, whenever; but they've said they're working on lower cost models. That's all I'm asserting.
        • ceejayoz 2y ago
          It's still the company that trots out humans in spandex to simulate robots and a self-driving taxi that was actually remotely operated by a guy on his phone. I'll believe in the cheap Tesla when it arrives.
        • 2y ago
• worik 2y ago
  The Chinese are going to clean this market up. The British made the same mistake back in the day with motorcycles. "Who cares about the market for 125 cc machines?" they said. The Japanese did, and now they have the market, the British used to have, for luxury and high powered motor cycles. As well as most of the 125cc market
  • preommr 2y ago
    > The Chinese are going to clean this market up. Not if our governments start putting tariffs on everything. I am Canadian, but it also applies to other governments (including the US). The politicians know that it's not going to be easy to do the actual right thing and build up a competitive industry. Instead, it's much easier to just slap some tariffs and make lagging productivity the next generation's problem.
    • seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      That would only apply to markets with tariffs, and not the rest of the world. China can sell their EVs to Central Asia, Russia, Africa, south east Asia, Australia, and still dominate the world wide market. America, Canada, Japan, Western Europe, and Korea can protect their markets, but they can’t really protect their market share.
    • derbOac 2y ago
      Yes, the lack of discussion of tariffs in the article and even in these threads is a bit odd to me. The US has tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles in part specifically to keep cheap Chinese EVs off the market. The complexities of this are outside my wheelhouse, but it's easy to see how keeping cheaper EVs out of the market would carve out a major source of cheaper vehicles period, leaving other manufacturers able to push higher priced cars. My guess is the tariffs are directly contributing to the process described in the article. Even if manufacturers were to "leave that market to China", eventually it would come to bite them as a certain proportion of people would start buying those cars instead. Monopolies, monopsonies, and tariffs are playing a huge role throughout the US economy and it gets such little attention. Or at least it seems that way to me.
    • 2y ago
• r14c 2y ago
  The only EV I'm even interested in is an Aptera. They're building a new class of vehicle that takes advantage of the affordances of full electric. I want a small efficient car that can go long distances and nobody else is building anything like that. Even US capital markets don't understand the appeal of this class of vehicle, but luckily they were able to fill their funding in global capital markets. I'm pretty pessimistic about US EVs, but Aptera gives me a little hope.
  • underseacables 2y ago
    I love Aptera! I just don't think it's ever going to take off. There's just not enough investment and demand. It looks ridiculous but it's an awesome concept of aerodynamics.
    • burnt-resistor 2y ago
      Sorry to burst your bubble, but unless there is another solar option, the 100 kWh pack will take around 40 days to charge by solar at 700W from 20% to 80%. Otherwise, it seems like the solar part is greenwashing with a bit of '70's-style geodesic dome and Balans chair styling. I'm all for cheap(er) EVs that don't involve Tesla like Scout or BYD.
      • WorldMaker 2y ago
        The solar adds 40 miles roughly every 8 hours of sunlight. Of course it's not a way to get 100% charged regularly, but how often do you need the battery at 100%? 40 "free" miles a business day is still a game changer in fuel usage.
      • throwawaymaths 2y ago
        it's probably greenwashing if you live in seattle or london, but lots of americans live in sunnier places and drive less (especially so now that people are WFH). I drive on the order of ~25 miles a day and supposedly the aptera will let me get that range on a day's charge, even though I live in a slightly less sunny place than say Texas, Arizona, or SoCal.
• jacknews 2y ago
  "There’s not a lot of movies made about the heroes who got 20% of the cost out of a car, but let me tell you, there should be.” Of course. You start by designing a car to be cheap, not slimming down an expensive one.
• VeejayRampay 2y ago
  the only manufacturer that does this right is Aptera, the rest is a bunch of gimmicks / subsidy fraud that doesn't solve any actual problem with cars
  • happyopossum 2y ago
    What exactly does Aptera 'do right'? and what is it 'manufacturing'? They've been pitching the same tiny, unsafe, and impractical car for ~20 years now...
    • VeejayRampay 2y ago
      they understand that weight and efficiency is the only way forward not like Tesla selling 3-ton vehicles that pretend to be green
  • declan_roberts 2y ago
    Never even heard of them, so I doubt they're the only ones "doing it right" vs other car companies that actually sell EVs.
  • dr-detroit 2y ago
    [dead]
  • fwip 2y ago
    You can't really call them a "manufacturer" when they haven't manufactured a single car, can you? I think they have exactly one test vehicle that they've made by hand.
• lenerdenator 2y ago
  Consider who builds American EVs: 1) a SV/Texas "tech" company, which, by its very identity, must yield insane returns to shareholders 2) Legacy auto companies who must yield insane returns to both shareholders and, to a lesser extent, retired employees. In their defense, the second group actually did work Compare this to Chinese EV makers who are dumpi - I mean, willing to take less return on their sale in order to establish market dominance globally. Yeah, no wonder American EVs are expensive.
  • fred_is_fred 2y ago
    So your issue is that US public companies need return on investment, but that Chinese ones don't? There's nothing "insane" about the ROI at GM or Ford...
    • lenerdenator 2y ago
      That's the issue, yes. The Chinese are selling either at a loss or far below the return expectations of their competitions' investors. They're not going to stop, because they want to drive everyone else out of the market. The solution is to drop things like dividends and executive bonuses down to sane (or, really, non-existent) levels and pass along the savings to the customer. Otherwise there might not be a company to collect ROI on in a decade or two. Not that most shareholders care; they hire a guy specifically to engineer the holdings so that they can drop any one of them and not lose lots of value.
• DaveExeter 2y ago
  If we wanted a cheap American electric car, the way to do it would be to allow Chinese EV manufacturers to sell to the American public! Of course, that is not allowed, because it would benefit the American people and hurt the American car cartel.
  • kraken20480 2y ago
    Chinese EV imports could threaten national security through technology dependence and harm American auto manufacturing jobs. Safety and environmental standards may also be lower. I think that view is rather narrow.
    • potato3732842 2y ago
      >threaten national security through technology dependence and harm American auto manufacturing jobs. Safety and environmental standards may also be lower. Protectionism based tax and economic policy causes the exact same outcomes but far enough in the future and far enough away that the people who implemented it will be retired and/or dead and the people who voted for those people to do it will have had time to spin some counter narrative about it being an honest mistake, everyone thinking it was a good idea at the time, etc, etc.
      • engineer_22 2y ago
        Weird to me that off-shoring is back in vogue.
    • latentcall 2y ago
      I’d say let’s ask the free market and put BYD’s for sale to see what the American people think.
    • DaveExeter 2y ago
      You think Japanese auto imports was good for American auto manufacturing jobs? Don't you remember American auto workers beating a Japanese man to death? You probably don't, because they beat a Chinese man to death by mistake. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Vincent_Chin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Vincent_Chin
• deleted 2y ago
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• deleted 2y ago
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• vonnik 2y ago
  Anyone interested in this should look into BorgWarner, the company that produces most of the EV power trains in the US. They charge a several x markup and hold a virtual monopoly. https://arxiv.org/abs/2411.10440 https://arxiv.org/abs/2411.10440
• dr-detroit 2y ago
  [dead]
• thimkerbell 2y ago
  It's the Wall Street Journal.
• JKCalhoun 2y ago
  > The cheapest car Tesla currently sells in the U.S. starts at around $43,000—or $35,500 with a federal tax credit of $7,500. Curious if anyone knows — do people actually drive off the lot with a Tesla for $35,500?
  • darknavi 2y ago
    There is no lot. You click order online and it shows up. Honestly one of the best things Tesla has done for the car industry. I see a Model 3 Long Range rear wheel drive listed for $42,490 in their new vehicle configurator: https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview
  • mattmaroon 2y ago
    Teslas are one of the few vehicles where you can actually get the model at the lowest price they advertise because they are all delivery. Almost every other make and model will show you a price in their advertisements that you can’t find anywhere and make you wait forever to order one. I’ve often thought it was deceptive advertising because the price they show in their TV ad is one almost nobody actually gets or likely could. I’m pretty sure Lexus has a version of the RX with cloth seats and no touchscreenthat they only make one of just so they can use the price in their ads. I don’t know how many people actually opt for the lowest end version of Teslas but I believe you can get them with essentially no more difficulty than any other version.
    • slices 2y ago
      true. I wasted over a year waiting to get a base model Toyota Sienna, and eventually realized they might as well not exist.
    • kjksf 2y ago
      The cheapest Teslas are also best selling Teslas. With Teslas the base model is really good and more expensive models offer either longer range or performance of a Porsche for half the price.
  • NelsonMinar 2y ago
• gradus_ad 2y ago
  Why isn't there more focus on plain old Hybrids? Not PHEV's... Aren't they a best of both worlds approach? What am I missing.
  • j_bum 2y ago
    Right? I drive an accord hybrid (2023) and get ~53 mpg city and ~48 mpg interstate. I have a hard time imagining switching to a full EV or going back to traditional ICE.
  • matt-attack 2y ago
    Um because people really want to be done burning petroleum in their cars. Hybrid is just an old gas car that’s gets improved gas mileage. It’s not a real fix.
  • SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    > Aren't they a best of both worlds approach? What am I missing. They have the mechanical complexity of both, in a package of roughly the same size. And usually far smaller batteries and thus far less battery-only range than a pure EV. There are plenty of downsides.
  • pton_xd 2y ago
    Japan went all-in on hybrids, not exactly sure why though. Skip forward a few decades and it'd make a lot more sense to unify behind a fully electric charging solution than maintaining two fueling methods.
  • croisillon 2y ago
    i have heard that a hybrid car is in fact the worst of both worlds, having to carry both 50kg gasoline _and_ over 50kg battery
    • qwerpy 2y ago
      And you still don't escape having to go to a gas station every few weeks, and maintenance twice a year. Those 10 or so hours per year don't seem like a lot but after having enjoyed EVs for 6 years now, that's the one of the main reasons I'll never go back.
• latentcall 2y ago
  I would love a 10-15K BYD. I was told recently desiring a BYD is un-American when I can spend 3 times the price on a Tesla. No thanks! I’ll hold out for something truly cheap. Cars in America are insanely priced.
  • AnotherGoodName 2y ago
    Funny thing is that Musk himself said the “Shanghai built Tesla's are the best quality Tesla's” and he’s fully leaning into Chinese manufacturing. I suspect what will happen is that cheap Chinese imports will come into the USA but only for select manufacturers who benefit the current administration. So no cheap byd’s but possibly cheap Tesla’s.
    • kjksf 2y ago
      Tesla cars sold in US are the most American build cars. See https://www.carpro.com/blog/most-american-made-vehicle-the-tesla-model-y https://www.carpro.com/blog/most-american-made-vehicle-the-t... What it means that if you count what percentage of car parts are made in America, Tesla has higher percentage that other brands, even those you might consider "more" American, like GM or Ford. All Teslas sold in America are assembled in America (California or Texas). Ford Mustang, for example, is assembled in Mexico. As far as I know Tesla never sold Chinese built cars in US. They used Chinese manufacturing (CATL) and Korean batteries in some model, but also manufactured batteries in US (Nevada, with Panasonic) and are expanding battery production in US with 4680 (used in Cybertruck). Cheaper Teslas are coming to US but they'll be manufactured in US (Texas). Tesla told us that they'll start making a cheaper model sometime in 2025.
      • AnotherGoodName 2y ago
        I’m saying that Chinese made teslas might be allowed in the USA in the near future. Musk himself has stated bluntly that USA made teslas are lower quality and more expensive so you can see the desire to shut down the US plants and bring in Chinese made Teslas and he clearly has some political sway now.
• the_gastropod 2y ago
  It's weird the Chevy Bolt wasn't mentioned. After the $7500 tax credit, you could get a brand new Chevy Bolt for under $20k. If you haven't driven a Bolt, I can't recommend it more. It's about as perfect as car as I could reasonably dream up. It's a hatchback, minimally gimmicky (compared to, e.g, a Tesla, where so many things are "different" for the sake of being different), unnecessarily fast—truly, it's shocking how quick it is, very respectable range of ~270 miles, has Apple CarPlay (or Android's equivalent if you're into that sort of thing), and it's cheap. I picked up a used 2023 for $14k last month. Hertz is unloading their fleet of EV's, so they're ridiculously cheap if you don't mind driving a former rental car.
  • solardev 2y ago
    Didn't they recall all of them for a few years due to some safety issues? Are they fixed yet?
    • kccqzy 2y ago
      Yeah they are fixed. A Bolt is a nice vehicle to buy if you don't mind its slow charging; and judging by the number of Bolts on the road plenty of people don't mind.
    • OkayPhysicist 2y ago
      Yeah, it was just a software patch. Real quick fix.
      • vel0city 2y ago
        No, the Bolt had a manufacturing defect which could result in an internal short and cause a battery fire. All Bolts were available for a recall maintenance where the entire battery was replaced under warranty.
    • vel0city 2y ago
      Yes, an in fact IMO that makes the used models even more of a steal. Get a several year old model with a pretty much new battery. The battery is pretty much the main wear item in the whole drivetrain, so its like buying a used ICE with a brand new drive train.
• GratiaTerra 2y ago
  I took advantage of the IRA solar power and $7500 EV credit, now I have an off grid home all electric appliances and excess power for hot tubs and EV's. The Ford Lightning acts as a generator. This was the greatest most life changing and impactful legistlation ever: I've had $0 (ZERO!) in gasoline, LP, and electric utility bills since installation last year.
  • max2 2y ago
    May I ask what state are you in?
  • solardev 2y ago
    Does your state pay you retail for your production? And have you gotten your first annual true up bill yet? That setup is a dream for a lot of people, but it's not always easy to make happen depending on state regulations (and how powerful the utilities there are)...
    • epistasis 2y ago
      > I have an off grid home Seems like the utilities aren't involved at all? Cheap storage actually makes grid defection a possibility for a ton of people these days. Especially when you start considering the cost of upgrading 100 amp service to 200 amp or similar. Once you've added a bit of battery, might as well go a bit more, and use your vehicle for additional backup when necessary. People having 70kWh or more of mobile battery in the garage is going to change the calculation for a lot of people. Many people who would never install solar unless it saves them money will also spend a tooooooon of money on a big truck for aesthetic reasons, and then find that it makes solar a cheaper propositon.
      • solardev 2y ago
        Haha sorry! I totally missed that important sentence. Thanks for pointing it out.
    • GratiaTerra 2y ago
      I disconnected from the grid entirely so there is no bill. Since the local power company here is only paying 10 cents per kw for solar power (which they resell at greater profit), I decided to run a small crypo miner and I still have excess power on a 22kw system. I don't know of anywhere where its not legal to be solar powered but there were several thousand in costs associated with engineer plans and permits.
• happyopossum 2y ago
  This is partially a case of not moving the goalposts - if you run an inflation calculator [0] on 25k from 2017-now, it comes in right around 32.5k, and you can definitely order a Tesla for less than that today. [0]https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=201701&year2=202410 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=25000&year1=20...
  • csours 2y ago
    > 1993 Geo Metro pricing starts at $1,410 for the Metro XFi Hatchback 2D, which had a starting MSRP of $7,296 when new. The range-topping 1993 Metro LSi Convertible 2D starts at $1,481 today, originally priced from $10,749. https://www.kbb.com/geo/metro/1993/ https://www.kbb.com/geo/metro/1993/ > $10,749 -> $23,288 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=10749&year1=199310&year2=202410 https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=10749&year1=19...
• Lance_ET_Compte 2y ago
  Electric cars will not "save the environment". Their purpose is to "save the US automotive industry". The idea that billionaires and car manufacturers would be motivated by anything else is laughable. Support public transportation.
  • epistasis 2y ago
    As somebody who wants less cars and more public transportation, I think your messaging is way off. This is an all-hands-on-deck situation where we need to pursue all options simultaneously. And there are huge swathes of our country that we will not be able to transition out of suburban sprawl into transit-friendly planning in the necessary amount of time. So in 2050, there will still be cars, and we can not build enough public transportation in time to solve climate change (and in fact we won't transition to EVs fast enough to solve climate change, if we rely on EVs alone either...)
    • acdha 2y ago
      Co-signed. One really concept is the locked-in demand: every single internal combustion vehicle sold now means someone is buying gas for at least two decades, but even if you use entirely coal power an EV will generate fewer carbon emissions now and that will drop rapidly every time cleaner power is added to the grid.
  • mitthrowaway2 2y ago
    Maybe if domestic automakers fall to Chinese competition, the US will start properly investing in public transportation like it did a century ago.
  • asadotzler 2y ago
    No, wrong. Completely wrong. The US auto industry doesn't believe EVs will save them--they're certain it's going to kill them or almost, but the EV transition is being forced by CARB + ROW (Europe, China and Korea) which don't really give a shit whether the US auto companies like it or not. They will chase China and Korea or die. It's really that simple and has nothing to do with what they want and entirely what they're forced into by global competition and regulation.
• snakeyjake 2y ago
  There are inexpensive EVs in the US. A local dealer has new Nissan Leafs available for $24.5k (after rebates) all day, every day. There are also inexpensive cars. A local dealer has new Mitsubishi Mirage Hatchbacks available for $17k all day, every day. People don't want them. They're not being tricked, cajoled, strong-armed, forced, pressured, misguided, or hoodwinked. American consumers WANT and CAN AFFORD gigantic $65k SUVs with heated and cooled seats and wifi and huge screens that take up the entire dashboard. "Oh but they're prioritizing higher-marg..." yeah no shit Sherlock literally all a consumer has to do is not buy one of those. But Toyota can slap a limited edition retro paint job on an SUV, mark it up $5k and the dealer can mark it up $10k and people will walk past the cheap cars to sign up for a waiting list to get a chance to earn an opportunity to put down a non-refundable deposit to maybe, potentially, pay $75k for an middling SUV with a limited edition retro paint job.
  • nunez 2y ago
    People don't want Leafs because they come with too many compromises. Small battery, slow, weird and phased-out charging port; list goes on. It's a first-gen EV through and through. However, Nissan's second EV, the Ariya, is selling much better! Crossover CUV (which America wants), bigger battery, fast, stylish, starts at $39.5k. We also now have sub-$30k used Tesla's out in the market too.
    • xur17 2y ago
      > We also now have sub-$30k used Tesla's out in the market too. I purchased a 2023 Model 3 from Hertz over the summer for $23k, which I've been very happy with. I'm not eligible for either tax rebate (used or new), so 1 year ago I would have paid north of $40k for it. There are definitely some good deals out there.
    • syndicatedjelly 2y ago
      People not wanting a Leaf is how I got mine for dirt cheap. I also happen to live in a state with an extraordinary EV tax credit. The annoyances of the Leaf are overstated, and the benefits are way better than people give credit for. If people do what’s popular, they have to accept a popularity tax for the “keeping up with the Joneses” lifestyle
• uprootdev 2y ago
  I dream of public transport and not having to drive.
• knowitnone 2y ago
  After reading some of the comments, the next questions, why are automakers not building plants in Africa? Cheap labor force, cheap land, probably needs education and training. China is courting Africa, is the US?
  • jklinger410 2y ago
    France has dibs on Africa. Plus, the American manufacturing industry was our gift to and remains our primary bargaining chip with CCP. We wouldn't dare give it to anyone else.
    • selimthegrim 2y ago
      Tell Mali and Niger that
  • HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    Government stability? Supply chain? Cost of delivery? Just the first few guesses off the top of my head. > probably needs education and training That's not helping!
  • Dracophoenix 2y ago
    Firstly, Africa is a continent, not a sovereign nation or a monolithic politico-economic bloc. Cars aren't manufactured in every country in Asia, but primarily East and Southeast Asia. Asia proper extends from Anatolia to the Bering Strait, where many countries in between have no automobile industry whether domestic or foreign. Secondly, there are plenty of reasons to avoid doing business in the many African countries, not the least of which are political instability, low literacy rates of the native populations, unfavorable and inconsistent economic policies (tariffs, board membership requirements, etc.), as well as inefficient and corrupt bureaucracies. That last one can create legal issues for you if you run a business incorporated in the US.
  • kylehotchkiss 2y ago
    Of all the places in the world to build factories, you choose Africa? Not India, Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia? Nothing personal against Africa but there are just a lot of options that aren't china with better industrial policy and want to build stuff to export.
• bane 2y ago
  I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of mine just spent $100k on a regular old pickup truck that is planned to spend less than 5% of the time doing anything other than commuting him back and forth to work. It doesn't fit in any of the parking garages around here, or in his garage -- he has to park it at the other side of a surface lot because it doesn't fit in the normal spots. It gets like 11 mpg and uses the 92 octane fuel. Americans won't buy cheap cars, they won't buy upmarket small cars, but they'll burn their children's college fund into the ground for a 2 second gain on 0-60 and bad ergonomics. I can afford the fancy car, but I'd rather turn $100k into $200k in my index funds and buy an entire apartment in Spain overlooking the Mediterranean with the gains. We can have nice things, but this is why we can't have affordable things.
  • bluGill 2y ago
    Some Americans. The average car in the US is 12 years old. I just checked my local craigslist, most cars of that age are under 10k, and almost none are more than 20k. Since that is average we can assume cars of that age will run (with maintenance) for another decade and so shouldn't be very expensive. Of course at that age almost nothing is electric.
    • JeremyNT 2y ago
      I do think part of it is how darned long cars last now. I have an 18 year old car that I purchased used long ago and currently has no mechanical issues. I've had a few repairs but nothing terribly expensive. I have no interest in replacing it. When you think about it, people who are frugal will buy practical and cost effective cars and drive them for a decade or more (that is, if they buy a car at all!). That means they either never buy new at all, or when they do they do so only seldom. People who are chasing the new shiny will continue to churn through new shiny. And of course they want to pay a lot to get only the shiniest. So I can see why the average new car cost would creep up, because buying a new car at all is a luxury in most cases.
• 1970-01-01 2y ago
  WSJ is entitled to their opinions, however they conveniently forgot about the plethora of Herz used EVs onsale right now. https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-electric-vehicles.htm https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-electric-vehicles.htm
• travisporter 2y ago
  I expected more from this article. Sure they are boring but in the new market Kona EV, ID.4, Leaf, and as mentioned Bolt EV/EUV are all very good deals, and the only compromise is infrequent road-tripping, and this is totally ignoring Tesla.
• mdietz12 2y ago
  I would love to see some analysis on the average car production cost invoice cost. The current numbers being shown focus too much on MSRP or final sale cost, which include vehicle options or markup. It would be very useful to look at these trends.