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NIH cancels ‘Havana syndrome’ research, citing unethical coercion
- lenzollamas 2y ago[flagged]
- jsheard 2y ago> Since then, at least 1,500 cases have been reported by US personnel stationed in 96 countries, officials said last year. How many of those reports were after they passed the HAVANA Act, which grants significant compensation (up to one years salary) to any personnel who were affected by this vaguely defined condition with no known cause and no definitive physical indicators?
- kranke155 2y agoFrom what I’ve read I’m almost sure that some people were in fact affected. Some kind of directed energy weapon from an enemy state. There was a good article I read about it once that showed micro damage all over the brain of some victims. However 1500 people is truly a large number. But they do say reported cases, not confirmed.
- emchammer 2y agoWhat if it is an orbiting particle accelerator? Edward Teller suggested such a thing in the 1980s. It would explain both the worldwide occurrences and deep penetration into brain matter.
- LennyHenrysNuts 2y agoNah, just Americans being American. Probably kidnapped by aliens and then subjected to a Satanic ritual as well. I need a name for this phenomenon. Maybe North American Hallucination Syndrome, or maybe McDonalds Induced Reality Deviation or something.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y agoAs the article states, studies have found (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-with-havana-syndrome-show-no-brain-damage-or-medical-illness/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-with-havan...) no clear correlation of self-reported Havana syndrome with any physical indications. I vaguely recall an old article where they did some brain scans of Havana syndrome patients, and found “abnormalities”, but did not compare these scans against any sort of control group.
- _qzhm 2y agoOne of those things. A guy I work with who I (still) consider to be highly intelligent and down to earth insists he was affected by tests of this in a well known and highly populated metropolitan area, which is well known in that community to have been a target area of directed energy weapons. I didn't believe any of this when I first heard about it but I'm now a skeptic believer. He was able to explain, in detail, what he felt - both physically and mentally - and could name when they happened and for how long. He underwent a bunch of medical and physiological tests as he didn't know what it was at first, mostly because it started to impact his relationship. I'm not sure he even knew about the whole thing until he started searching around on the web for his symptoms and came across others in the same neighborhood where it happened, claiming to have reported similar things. I brushed it off at first as it seemed clear it must have been something else, but it didn't help that in literally every other aspect he's an empirical, grounded, down to Earth and totally intelligent person, an expert in his technical field, etc. Still not sure where I stand on it as it's incredibly difficult to study or even justify scientifically. I'm still not even convinced it was "directed energy". But I do at least believe people who say they've been affected by whatever it was. It's certainly lessened his quality of life, whatever it is.
- rcxdude 2y agoIt's worth emphasising in cases like this that even an individual experiencing completely phsycosomatic ('all in their head') symptoms is still experiencing real symptoms. That is, rejecting the idea that your friend's symptoms are caused by energy weapons is not rejecting the idea that he is experiencing negative effects (which to be clear, may still have an 'external' cause)
- piaste 2y ago> Some kind of directed energy weapon from an enemy state. Suppose you are a nation-state, hostile to the USA, that has developed a directed energy weapon. Do you test it: A) on your own citizens (whether willing, deceived, or coerced), B) on citizens of some remote, poor, and/or war-torn country that is unlikely to retaliate against you, or C) on diplomatic personnel from the country with the greatest military and intelligence resources by far, and with a proven history of bombing or invading other countries on both true and false premises? I had never heard of Havana syndrome before, and I have nothing to comment either way on whether the physical symptoms are real and/or have a common cause. But the idea that an enemy state is using a secret weapon prototype to... randomly give headaches to American diplomats? Is bizarre, to say the least.
- schiffern 2y ago>Do you test it Who's saying it's a test? Your premise assumes they haven't already done A and B, and after successful testing moved on to C.
- piaste 2y agoThen the scenario becomes: "Sir, the results are in: this weapon causes mild headaches and sleep difficulties lasting a few months." "Excellent! Deploy it against American embassies immediately. Surely this will absolutely cripple their espionage efforts." The idea that it's a side-effect of directed- energy _surveillance_ seems a vastly more sensible hypothesis in every way.
- e40 2y agoSome of the people had mich more severe symptoms than what you describe, but that would undermine your snark.
- newaccount74 2y agoI also suffer from irregular, unexplained headaches. Someone must be microwaving my apartment complex.
- somenameforme 2y agoThere was an early report that claimed abnormalities, but by the standards they were using just about everybody would have shown abnormalities - and they consequently did not even have a control group. Contemporary studies from 2024+ onward, using control groups, have found no physical effects or differences whatsoever. [1] I also think it's noteworthy that claimed incidents have been reported just about everywhere, including Western nations. After the scare started, every "enemy" state individual, embassy, and other such facility would have been even more intense than usual surveillance. And absolutely no evidence of any attack of any sort whatsoever has been found. By contrast mass psychogenic illnesses [2] have a lengthy history and their typical effects correlate identically with the typical reported effects of 'Havana Syndrome.' Actually I just noticed Havana Syndrome is now already listed as one of the examples of mass psychogenic illness. Somewhat surprising from Wiki, but accurate nonetheless. [1] - https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816532 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816532 [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness
- hluska 2y agoYou don’t know enough to diagnose this. Your “accurate nonetheless” is pure speculation.
- snapcaster 2y agoBe careful not to be so open minded your brain falls out
- theultdev 2y agoBut also be careful to not be so close minded you suffocate in the sand.
- Jerrrrrrry 2y agoThe intelligence agencies public vs private statements validate the claims of few isolated directed energy incidents then exacerbated through asocial psychosomatic social incentives until it matured into a mass psychogenic illness. “And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
- a0123 2y agoYou know, the sort of weapon everyone agrees is not possible or feasible at this stage. And definitely not a hysterical reaction based on some people who faked the most common symptoms ever and tried to make it look like something it wasn't by saying "it' s affecting intelligence assets". I have Havana syndrome on a regular basis. But not being an intelligence assets, I get no compensation and no sensationalist article in the press praising my incredible bravery and feeling sorry for me.
- rdzl 2y agoTheyre actually very easy to produce, in fact you likely have one in your house. They are known as microwave ovens.
- fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago“When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is probably wrong.” Arthur C Clarke
- AtlasBarfed 2y agoI'll say this. I think the The Chinese and Russian security forces are pretty corrupt, even the CIA analogues, that we'd know what it is now.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago> Some kind of directed energy weapon from an enemy state. Has there ever been any secret weapon that was not leaked to other states?
- akira2501 2y ago> that showed micro damage all over the brain of some victims. How you do this accurately without a biopsy or autopsy is a good question. The other one is are we sure these people aren't making "lifestyle" choices that are contributing to their health problems? > 1500 people is truly a large number. Given the size of the civil service, this would be close to the number of people with undisclosed drug problems, I would expect.
- slaymaker1907 2y agoI’m not sure, you should look up functional neurological disorder (FND). It’s very much a real disorder, but it’s 100% causes by our subconscious brains. There are honest people who just suddenly lose the ability to walk *or even go blind*. I’m kind of convinced that if there is a symptom, our brains can probably cause it.
- fasteo 2y ago> Some of the people who reported being sick previously claimed that the CIA made them join the research as a prerequisite for getting health care. Isn't it the other way around ? People forced to enroll, not people enrolling to get a monetary compensation
- cjbgkagh 2y agoI assume the CIA is trying to save a buck by pulling healthcare money from someone else’s line item. Also, by forcing people to do this it makes it easier for national adversaries to figure out who is in the CIA. To hide information like this you need to inject randomness.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoI like it. Even simpler and more plausible than the social contagion explanation.
- hatenberg 2y agohttps://homeland.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2024-05-08-CTI-HRG-Testimony.pdf https://homeland.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2024-0...
- Mistletoe 2y agoFor people wanting a refresher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana_syndrome
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- macinjosh 2y agoThis whole episode was essentially a conspiracy theory that was taken seriously because the paranoid people who came up with it happened to be in positions of power and respect. Additionally, this whole milieu (DC gov/media) just automatically believed it because they feel like Russians are lurking behind every corner. If an average citizen went to the doctor and claimed these things they'd be shown to the psych ward.
- sterlind 2y agoif an average citizen claims they're being followed by government agents, they probably have paranoid schizophrenia. if a diplomat in an unfriendly host country claims the same, they probably are. it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.
- jmyeet 2y agoMy money is on some combination of "comppletely made up" to "psychosomatic". We see no better evidence of this than how cops treat fentanyl exposure. Cops act like if they're in the same room as fentanyl they might die. This has been perpetuated in media. Thing is, it's completely made up. Fentanyl is no more dangerous to handle than talcum powder. I mean, don't ingest or inhale the powder. There are no "fumes" however. But the cops themselves believe this to the point that they report oversdoses in the field and have legitimate panic attacks for fear of exposure [1]. Havana Syndrome was suspicious from the go. Just the association with Cuba screams CIA psy op. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1175726650/fentanyl-police-overdose-misinformation https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1175726650/fentanyl-police-ov...
- AlbertCory 2y ago[flagged]
- jsheard 2y agoThe association with Cuba persists despite the official line now being that personnel in at least 96 different countries have been affected by Havana Syndrome. If it really is a secret weapon by the dastardly Communists then they must be deploying it all around the world, including in many friendly US-allied states, without anyone ever catching them in the act over nearly a decade. That's considerably less plausible than Cuba doing covert shenanigans around an embassy on their own soil.
- jmyeet 2y ago> and the people who were interviewed on 60 Minutes? They were made up, too? Some? Yes. Absolutely. But the point of pscyhosomatic symptoms is that it feels real. That person has become so convinced of something that they truly believe in their symptoms. It's not conscious. > You cite all this irrelevant stuff about fentanyl, It's not irrelavent. It shows just how powerful pscyhosomatic symptoms can be. > Or do you have some actual evidence? I don't need evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraodinary evidence. There were various claims with Havana Symdrome like "energy weapons". Even the more realistic "unknown substances" still requires something that wouldn't show up when looked for either in the physical presence of supposed victims or in toxicology. If someone is making the claim that this happened to them, then the onus is on them to produce evidence, not on everyone else to disprove it. So in the fentanyl case, there is motive to lie about it because it makes their job seem more dangerous than it actually is. The peceived danger of fentanyl is used to justify all sorts of things like questionable searches or even not doing your job (for fear of fentanyl exposure). Havana Syndrome has similar motive concerns. Compensation, attention, sympathy, that sort of thing.
- aatd86 2y agoThey have found what/who has been causing this and just don't want to explain what this is. Interesting, if annoying tech.
- danbruc 2y agoMy favorite unexplained mass phenomenon, the dancing plague of 1518. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_plague_of_1518 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_plague_of_1518
- earth-adventure 2y agoMost likely a funny woman or a woman who went out of her mind, then some people laughing and copying her as a joke. Then others see a group of people dancing uncontrollably and now you have rumors going around aaaand it's mass hysteria. Some maybe even copied it to other parts of town or restarting the next day in a kind of flashmob way. My 2 cents.
- replwoacause 2y agoThat was a fun read
- joenot443 2y agoThe source being referenced goes into even more detail. [1] [1] https://publicdomainreview.org/essay/the-dancing-plague-of-1518/ https://publicdomainreview.org/essay/the-dancing-plague-of-1...
- no_exit 2y agoSo last week there was a big Rolling Stone article bemoaning the CIA's lack of mental health support, and now this with a similar line. > “They wanted us to be a lab rat for a week before we actually got treatment at Walter Reed — and at bare minimum, that is unethical and immoral,” Marc Polymeropoulos told CNN in May. I wonder what the underlying angle is here.
- squigz 2y ago> I wonder what the underlying angle is here. I'm not sure what you're asking/suggesting?
- le-mark 2y agoApparently how powered radars are fairly common on US navy vessels, and injuries not uncommon from walking in front of them or otherwise being exposed. One would think there exists a body of knowledge on exposure to at least this sort of “high energy”?
- SpicyLemonZest 2y agoThere's definitely research. In fact, the US has the "Active Denial System", an experimental directed-energy weapon built on those principles whose effects have been studied on humans. It causes temporary pain, potentially thermal damage if left on for too long. One of the big reasons I'm skeptical of Havana Syndrome is that its symptoms are nothing at all like that.
- colordrops 2y agoAre you making up the "big reasons"? There is a wide spectrum of radio waves, and they have very different affects on living tissue. The one you speak about is a very specific slice of spectrum.
- nradov 2y agoWhich slice of the spectrum causes brain damage while leaving the skin and eyes apparently intact? Please give us a specific frequency range.
- colordrops 2y agoMicrowaves can do this. They can cause enough damage to cause effects to the brain without massive damage to skin. Some people did have vision problems btw. But you are just distracting from the topic at hand. The system talked about above is 95 gigaherz and doesn't even penetrate the skin.
- nradov 2y agoYou're not making any sense. If the radiation doesn't penetrate the skin then it won't affect anything under the skin.
- kbos87 2y agoThis is probably an unpopular opinion and I don't know if it applies in this case, but I'm pretty convinced that a lot of instances like this are social contagions running wild. Every few years in the city I live in there's a sudden uptick in reports of drinks getting spiked at local bars. I've seen the mere suggestion that there's a risk of heightened risk of getting roofied at a bar make otherwise intelligent people paranoid or start using it as an excuse for their over-indulgence. And of course, there is never any concrete evidence - nothing shows up in bloodwork, nobody is ever caught doing it... the chatter just eventually fades away. This is obviously a different situation, but I'm weary of the massive scope this has taken on with so little concrete evidence that anything was actually happening. Maybe I'm totally wrong, or maybe it was a real phenomenon that many others hitched onto later on (seems even more plausible.) The point is that we seem to increasingly discount how much incentives and social dynamics play a role in situations like this.
- anon84873628 2y agoIt's not an unpopular opinion. In fact it seems to have become the dominant opinion.
- bcoates 2y agoAs sort of an exception that proves the rule thing, there was a real recent-ish case of (attempted) drink spiking in the LA area that demonstrates how it would actually go in real life vs the "unexplained mystery blackout while out drinking, must have been roofied by a stranger": https://www.smobserved.com/story/2022/04/03/crime/court-takes-guilty-plea-in-sexual-assault-wine-spiking-case-in-santa-monica/6639.html https://www.smobserved.com/story/2022/04/03/crime/court-take... Victim and attacker knew each other, was immediately noticed by bartender and caught on security cameras, drugs easily detected, etc.
- meepmorp 2y ago> An electronic search warrant of HSU's cellular phone device later revealed images and videos of HSU digitally penetrating the victim in an incapacitated state at various stages of their friendship, then dating relationship," Lt. Rudy Flores of the Santa Monica Police Department wrote in a press release, which follows. Sounds like maybe he'd done it several times and then finally gotten caught.
- seydor 2y agoThis new conspiracy just deepens the conspiracy
- caycep 2y agoMeanwhile a bunch of neurosurgeons are trying to sell everyone on "focused ultrasound" noninvasive brain surgery!
- nis0s 2y agoSeveral comments are assuming the goal of the secret method is making someone sick. But as others have said, becoming sick may be a symptom of exposure, so the intended purpose is something else like surveillance. Here’s the problem though, this genie is already out of the bottle, even if something like this didn’t exist and the Havana syndrome is mass psychosis, someone I am sure is busy making a directed-energy surveillance mechanism because the “enemy may do it first”. Isn’t it possible to know what’s going on in the environment though, for example by using a spectrum analyzer, or detection methods for ultrasound?
- VerminOctopus1 2y agoThis is quite obviously not a “real” syndrome caused by foreign adversaries. The physics, scale of “attack”, timeline, vagueness of symptoms, etc, all do not add up to a coherent phenomenon. Please put your skeptic hats on regarding this subject.
- amputect 2y agoMy friend described the original symptom cluster as "Havana few too many syndrome" (as in a few too many drinks), which I think is probably about right. From there it's just people working themselves into a panic over nothing, like american cops with fentanyl "exposure": https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1175726650/fentanyl-police-overdose-misinformation https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1175726650/fentanyl-police-ov...
- ungreased0675 2y agoI believe Havana Syndrome is one of the great government coverups of our time. In 30 years there will be books and movies about it. Right now there seems to be an unnatural lack of curiosity about it from the government, media, and public.
- rcxdude 2y agoThe government is taking it entirely too seriously, that's the whole problem.
- 0dayz 2y agoI, what? Just how is it a government cover up? Who is covering it up?
- __m 2y agoWait till you hear about 5G! People have been reporting headaches just as the cell towers went up, they didn't even have to turn them on
- mjbeswick 2y agoThe is a lack of curiosity because there is no evidence. Microwave energy has been found many times to be directed at embassies (such as the Moscow signal), but it wouldn't be any form of weapon. Such transmissions would likely be RF power for passive bugs, radar, or jamming signals.
- snowwrestler 2y agoI find it hard to square the idea of a great government coverup with the story at hand, which is that the CIA was forcing people to participate in NIH studies that produce public papers.
- antifa 2y agoWhat's to be curious about? There's no evidence of cool sci-fi stuff, no evidence of spy intrigue, according to the symptoms half thr people over the age of 35 have Havana syndrome (but no free healthcare). The only thing I'm curious about is when any of this is going to have evidence or matter.
- BobbyJo 2y agoI find it funny when people write this off a psychosomatic. I find it similarly funny when people claim a conspiracy I find the skeptical view that it would have to be some crazy science fiction "sick ray" kind of childish. The CIA literally had a "heart attack gun", and it was just a dumb dart gun with some drugs. It's easy to make simple technology sound wild and interesting and impossible. A weapon of this kind would either be very simple, or not. If it's an EM based weapon, there aren't a lot of dials to turn, so either there is a power/frequency combo that causes these effects, or not. Likewise, I find the conspiratorial view that it definitely happened and there is some kind of cover up to hide either the weapon or some conflict pretty ridiculous. Partially for the same reasons outlined above (a weapon like this wouldn't be very interesting IMO), and partially because it took place in Cuba. Its obviously a somewhat adversarial nation. Something like this would normally be a news story for a week, if at all, then maybe be a footnote in some history books at most.
- hatenberg 2y agoWell, there's this, but I guess much of the US press didn't cover that. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/01/havana-syndrome-linked-to-russian-unit-media-investigation-suggests https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/01/havana-syndrom...