27 ms·

Americans' love affair with big cars is killing them

248 points by avyfain 2y ago

avyfain 2y ago
http://archive.today/faiXa http://archive.today/faiXa
PaulHoule 2y ago
I hate sounding like a broken record but my belief is that car makers are more excited about XXXXL cars in American than car buyers are. The media is consistently complicit in covering this up, sounding like the brainwashed soldiers in The Manchurian Candidate It's not to say that we don't like big cars because we do, but walk into a car dealership looking for a small car and they will tell you they are out of stock of new ones of the model you want because the factory washed out in a flood but then they have 100 SUVs in a row unsold that nobody wants to buy made in the same factory. Your only choice is a used return that somebody sold back to them yesterday afternoon. Go into a dealership looking for an S car and they will try to sell you an L, go in looking for an M and get an XL and so forth. If you drive out with a $25,000 car when you could could of driven out with a $50,000 car they perceive it as a $25,000 loss! No wonder mainstream car brands can't sell electrics.
- kfarr 2y ago
  Yes big cars = big margin, but that won’t last forever. And you’re right it’s a dealer/mfr preference not necessarily consumer.
- ur-whale 2y ago
  What would you do differently if you owned a dealership ?
  - kfarr 2y ago
    Sell it and enter a better business that isn’t legacy rent seeking?
  - abhay37 2y ago
    All prices of all components are listed, thus I have no reason to hire salesmen. You pick the components as if you are building a PC. There is a huge demand for this, and the savings from fewer middlemen can go elsewhere. Of course there are several laws and policies on national and statewide levels enshrining the current anti-consumer model because it "creates jobs".
    - tomcam 2y ago
      Wasn’t this the business model of Saturn?
    - nothercastle 2y ago
      Nobody would buy all weather floor mats for 600$ or protective finish applications if you could remove them. That’s why they bundle features you want with those you don’t
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        You're confusing dealer-added options with factory option packages. Cars bundle features together because they get better economies of scale by making only a few different versions of a model ("trim levels"), instead of letting everyone mix-and-match parts. Factories don't work that well when all the units aren't the same. Dealer-added options aren't added at a factory, they're added at the dealership, solely for the reason of inflating profit and convincing customers to roll the cost into their loan.
    - coliveira 2y ago
      Salesmen are not an expense, they're a profit center. Every company knows this. They will sell more expensive cars and increase the dealer's profit, that's why this model persists.
      - abhay37 2y ago
        Except in my imaginary scenario, me being the only dealership doing that would bring me much more from beating the competition. So others would need to adopt my model to compete if I were legally able to do what I claim (see my earlier post.)
  - bgun 2y ago
    Arguing from the perspective of maximizing benefit to the producer/seller instead of the public at large speaks to a deep social epidemic. What would you do differently if you owned a cigarette factory? What if you owned Boeing?
  - sheepdestroyer 2y ago
    What's the added value of dealerships? They feel like parasites. The mere idea of having to negotiate prices like in an flea market is disturbing and disgusting to me. I want to be treated fairly and as well as the next guy. Fixed & open construtor prices and warranties, online customisation and ordering should be the only norm.
    - ericjmorey 2y ago
      Warranty repair is the only advantage.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        That's not an advantage: in countries where the manufacturers own the dealerships (i.e., every country not named "USA"), they do warranty repair there too. There really is no advantage to independently-owned dealerships, except maybe in bribes to local politicians.
    - nothercastle 2y ago
      During normal times they add no value and create negative value for everyone. But during a downturn or when a manufacturer makes a dud model dealers can be forced to buy up excess and slowly feed it into the market as well as absorb the losses
    - coliveira 2y ago
      Dealerships are owned by rich people and they contribute a lot of money to local politicians. That's why they won't go away even though they are nothing but parasites.
  - wffurr 2y ago
    Take all those customers looking for reasonably priced, reasonably sized cars and put the other guys out of business.
- zug_zug 2y ago
  Anecdotally I'm having trouble finding certain small cars in stock (e.g. crown platinum) and suspect there is some self-interest in the dealership to explains this. I think car-buyers are often under an illusion that an suv is "more car" when actually it's exact same components and just a larger frame. They'd much prefer to sell you the high-margin product and pocket the difference.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    > They'd much prefer to sell you the high-margin product The obvious answer to the entire scenario. There's no reason to go looking for hidden reasons: it's in plain sight.
    - bilegeek 2y ago
      Part of that high margin is because emissions and fuel economy laws are looser for truck-like vehicles, so they make everything a truck-like vehicle to avoid having to comply.
      - treis 2y ago
        The difference in gas mileage between SUVs and sedans is pretty negligible these days. They're mostly just cars with a different body style. And for the most part they're just flat better which is why they've mostly supplanted cars in the market. It's really trucks that have gotten stupidly big these days.
  - doubled112 2y ago
    Sometimes I wonder too. The big thing to me is that I drive a 10+ year old station wagon, and I seem to have more cargo space than many of these MUCH larger vehicles. I only have two kids. I have room for the dog. I put the bikes on the roof. What would a SUV do for me? An extra couple inches of ground clearance. Increased towing capacity. Rarely needed those.
    - hermitcrab 2y ago
- croes 2y ago
  Seems like the market isn't working.
  - psychlops 2y ago
    Cheap gas allows the cars to get bigger. Seems like the market has filled the gap as one might expect?
  - antimemetics 2y ago
    I was thinking exactly that - shouldn’t capitalism regulate this kind of thing on it’s own or something
    - xpe 2y ago
      Self-interest strives to break (or break out of) competitive markets to one’s own benefit.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - smsm42 2y ago
      The idea that "capitalism" somehow magically makes everybody do exactly what any particular person or set of persons want to happen is fascinating. How could one arrive to such a conclusion? No, that's not how "capitalism" works. It does not guarantee that the things you want to happen magically will happen because "market".
    - randomdata 2y ago
      Not when government regulation favours larger vehicles (e.g. lower emission standards).
  - cranekam 2y ago
    It clearly is. As the article makes out, the tax code and regulation favours large vehicles. Gas is cheap. Acting alone, there are few reasons to buy a smaller car if you can afford a bigger one. This is exactly the market “working” and why regulation is necessary to change it.
- morkalork 2y ago
  Didn't Ford flat out stop making sedans because SUVs and trucks have higher margins?
- forrestthewoods 2y ago
  I think there’s a lot of truth to this. Relatedly, it’s infuriating that American manufacturers are only interested in developing expensive, large, luxury EVs. We slapped a 100% tariff on cheap Chinese EVs… but our domestic companies refuse to develop a $20,000 compact EV! The cost of new cars in the US is insane. As is the protectionism of the industry. Give me cheap Japanese/Korean cars plzkthx.
  - coliveira 2y ago
    The whole idea behind tariffs on Chinese products is that cheap prices will NOT be tolerated. The US is stuck with expensive cars for the foreseeable future.
    - leotravis10 2y ago
      That's what I tried to tell you folks. Good luck finding a car in the US that is under $20,000 these days because you won't find it: https://www.motor1.com/features/710453/cheap-cars-dead/ https://www.motor1.com/features/710453/cheap-cars-dead/ Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39731164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39731164 Dan Gillmor's thoughts: https://mastodon.social/@dangillmor/112102491028919681 https://mastodon.social/@dangillmor/112102491028919681 THIS is why we need Chinese automakers to keep the pressure on these US and EU automakers to produce cheaper cars again.
- 1986 2y ago
  It's an arms race too, I'm in the market for a car now and would prefer something compact for city parking, but given that every _other_ car on the road these days seems to be an enormous SUV, I'm looking at probably at least a crossover so I won't constantly feel like I'm about to get steamrolled by a 4Runner or F150
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Bloating 2y ago
    sounds like you need anxiety meds
    - hermitcrab 2y ago
      If you can drive compact car on a US highway, then you are a braver person than me.
- jonny_eh 2y ago
  > walk into a car dealership looking for a small car and they will tell you they are out of stock of new ones of the model you want because the factory washed out in a flood Are you making this up?
  - jrockway 2y ago
    A major difficulty in buying a car in the US is lowering your tolerance for sleaze enough to complete the transaction.
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    Totally real. Post-COVID especially car dealers will make up all sorts of nonsense. Try to buy a base Civic or Corolla. They’ll literally run off and hide.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    No, it happened when I bought my Honda Fit.
  - hysan 2y ago
    Anecdata - We had to buy a car last year to replace our old, but failing car. This matches the experience we had. We were ok with used, so that’s what we ended up with. If you’re on a tight budget, that’s where you’ll end up. From what we read and from what dealers said at the time, car manufacturers hadn’t recovered from COVID supply chain issues. And that is why there were so few small cars. We just accepted that as reality, but parent comment’s explanation would also make sense.
- imglorp 2y ago
  Some of us actively hate big cars for daily use and are angered at the "SUV" (usually neither sport nor utility) unithink forced on us, and are frustrated how hard it is to find anything different. I want basically an electric Miata for around town, can't get one. I also want an actual utility vehicle with a long, solid, roof rack to haul a canoe or sheet of plywood. SUV roof racks are usually token, if at all. A plain old "station wagon" that's not 6 feet tall would be just fine but they don't make those any more. I settle for an Outback but it's not ideal. So neither of my two usecases are served at all.
  - globular-toast 2y ago
    Your comment shows how bad car culture is. You think you're the enlightened one, but you want an electric sports car for getting "around town"? People should be walking or cycling around town. Cars are actively harmful to towns. Cars have led to generations of people who don't realise they are capable of walking further than a few steps between car and building. A kind of learned helplessness. When you step outside of car culture it's really sad to see.
    - dnadler 2y ago
      People in US suburbs frequently live several miles from their town center, if they even have a town center at all. Cycling simply isn’t viable to large swaths of the US. There isn’t an easy answer to this either, given that you’d probably need to tear down entire neighborhoods and rebuild a more dense town
      - Zigurd 2y ago
        E-bikes fix most of those problems. A 10 mile trip, out and back, at 20mph, with no concern for loss of momentum at stop signs and lights is easily do-able by anyone who doesn't need mobility aids.
        dnadler 2y ago
        That fixes it for certain types of people, but certainly not for most people in in the north east during winter.
- Tanoc 2y ago
  This is true to a ridiculous extent. Ford has no compact hatchback or sedan in the U.S., only the Brazilian built EcoSport. They killed all their cars in favour of CUVs and SUVs. Chevrolet no longer has the Sonic, having nixed those in 2022. Honda no longer has the Fit as of two years ago. Mitsubishi no longer sells the Mirage as of last month. Dodge hasn't had anything since the Dart died in 2016. The Jeep Renegade's gone as of October of last year. Hyundai had the Veloster, but those are all sold as top trim Veloster Turbo Premiums or Ns even when they were being sold. The current Hyundai Ioniq 5 is more of a mid-size and is also expensive for the size. Kia has the Forte, but it's dragging out a slow death this year. Toyota has the Yaris and Prius C, but the Yaris has grown quite large, and the Prius C is quite high priced. Nissan killed the Versa Note in 2022, so you can't get those either. It's all been replaced with "compact" CUVs that have the exterior dimensions of a mid-size hatchback.
  - loeg 2y ago
    > [Ford] killed all their cars in favour of CUVs and SUVs. They still sell one car -- the Mustang.
    - ericjmorey 2y ago
      The mustang also comes in an SUV format now in addition to the sports car format.
      - Tanoc 2y ago
        They're spinning Mustang off into a sub-brand, like Chrysler did for Imperial. We're set to get a Mustang "offroader" sometime in 2027, and there's rumblings of a mid-size CUV to slot below the full-size Mach-E. Marketing loves these rub-off schemes meant to give inferior or fledgling products some of the shine of a halo product. They almost always end up failing, and even when they don't they damage the halo products after the first round of releases using the shared name.
        hermitcrab 2y ago
- roughly 2y ago
  As folks elsewhere have noted, CAFE standards make "light" trucks substantially more profitable than other cars, and so yes, car makers have pushed them aggressively, including with strong marketing campaigns for the last 20 years or so. All of the arguments from car manufacturers that they're just "answering consumer demand" ignores the point that they manufactured that demand. Change the tax structures and incentives, make trucks as expensive for the manufacturer as they are for society, and you'll see a renaissance of small cars, advertising extolling the virtues of small cars, and a societal shift towards small cars.
  - kbolino 2y ago
    CAFE has two problems. The first, as you've mentioned, is the suspect bifurcation of the standards between regular cars and "light trucks". The second problem is that the footprint-based formulas used within a category do not reflect the practical utility of the vehicles and let larger cars off easier. A high-roof compact car like the Honda Fit can comfortably carry 5 people and opens up quite well for transporting a lot of stuff. Because it's small and light, it gets great gas mileage especially on the highway. Yet it's penalized by CAFE because it has a small footprint and so is expected to get unrealistically high fuel economy. Whereas, a larger sedan like the Honda Civic can also carry 5 people (with some more amenities) but has a paltry trunk that can't be used to transport much more than grocery bags. Even as a hatchback, the roof is a lot lower than in the Fit, so it can transport larger items like furniture, but only if they're flat. Yet it scores better on CAFE because its larger footprint allows it to have more realistic fuel economy.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- coliveira 2y ago
  Let's not even talk about the fact that car prices are bordering on a national scam. They will list a certain model at price X, but that is only the price of the base configuration that is never on stock. Add to this all the fees that are practically impossible to escape, and car prices are always 50% or more higher than advertised.
- coliveira 2y ago
  The media has a sick tendency to attribute to individual choice situations that are clearly caused by powerful people benefiting from other people's misfortunes. For example, young workers cannot afford houses, becomes "generation XYZ doesn't WANT to buy homes". Workers cannot find good paying jobs becomes "people don't WANT to work anymore"; and so much BS like that we see everyday in our media.
- jgalt212 2y ago
  That's all well and good, but many people cannot afford a car that costs $25K more than they intended on paying (no matter how slick the salesperson).
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  The profit margins don't exist on the small vehicle you're looking for. There is limited to no incentive to manufacture it
baxuz 2y ago
re-gu-la-tion~
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
xwall 2y ago
Key Ideas: Heavier vehicles are safer for their occupants but more dangerous for others: The weight of a vehicle is a critical factor in car crashes, with heavier vehicles causing more fatalities in other cars, pedestrians, and cyclists. The heaviest vehicles kill more people than they save: Analysis of crash data shows that for every life saved by the heaviest 1% of SUVs and trucks, more than a dozen lives are lost in other vehicles. Weight advantages have changed little over time: Despite improvements in safety features, the weight advantage of heavier vehicles has remained relatively constant, with heavier vehicles still causing more fatalities in lighter vehicles. Carmakers prioritize consumer preferences over safety: Manufacturers are producing increasingly heavier vehicles, driven by consumer demand for larger, more powerful cars, despite the safety risks to others. Regulators are ill-equipped to address the issue: The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's rating system focuses on occupant safety, not the safety of other road users, and tax policies subsidize heavier vehicles. Public awareness and concern are growing: Surveys show increasing concern about the size and safety of SUVs and pickup trucks, with researchers and policymakers starting to take notice. Electrification may exacerbate the problem: The shift towards electric vehicles, which tend to be heavier than their internal-combustion equivalents, may increase the weight of vehicles on the road, further amplifying the safety risks.
- dionian 2y ago
  Sounds like a heavier car is actually safer to put me and my loved ones inside, at least for now.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    Sounds like it's safest for me and my family to physically prevent you from doing that. See how deranged this line of escalation is? How sick in the soul I would have to be to choose to harm your family to increase the safety of mine? Can you see what kind of world you're building when you advocate this?
    - sieabahlpark 2y ago
      [dead]
SubiculumCode 2y ago
...and killing people in small cars.
kpmcc 2y ago
As impractical as it may be, I think the only answer is to limit the size of vehicles, either through taxation or an outright ban. Larger vehicles are worse for pretty much everything and many of the costs are externalized.
- veggieWHITES 2y ago
  A tax would make it even more dystopian. Imagine the rich paying for the right to murder people on the road.
  - baq 2y ago
    1) always has been 2) ask them, they’ll tell you the rational explanation that from their perspective it’s irresponsible to not be the heaviest car on the road
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    How is that any different than the current situation? It will just cost more.
  - energy123 2y ago
    I don't care about your ideology. Tax works as a solution to deter behavior you don't want and raise revenue which can be spent on good things that make society function.
    - unstatusthequo 2y ago
      Nah there are other solutions to life’s problems than just taxes. HN loves taxing stuff. Don’t know why this site is stuck in single channel thinking.
tinyhouse 2y ago
It's not a love affair. Once there are large vehicles on the road, you cannot afford putting yourself at greater risk by not having a large vehicle yourself.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  Is that necessarily true? There are no smaller vehicles with overbuilt frames, more airbags, and better test rating? I look under the hood of "large" trucks and sometimes it's a lot of empty space. It looks like a paper tiger- it's fake big. I've also read somewhere that taller vehicles have a higher chance of rollover which could make them less safe than advertised.
  - tinyhouse 2y ago
    That's fair. However, if my car is twice heavier and larger than yours, even if your car is well engineered and has great safety features and rating, you're likely to end up worse than me in an accident. Even if my chances of rollover are higher than yours.
    - XlA5vEKsMISoIln 2y ago
      Why is your life more worth than mine?
SubiculumCode 2y ago
Imagine a large truck, like Ford Super Duty F-450, but even heavier because its electric, and with the acceleration of a Tesla. Now imagine a testosterone filled teen driving it on the freeway after a couple of beers and wants to show off.
tqi 2y ago
One thing that surprised me is that when the article talks about "big cars", I had initially assumed they meant the ubiquitous family crossover SUVs (RAV4 / CRV and the like) that have more or less completely replaced the family sedans. However the curb weight of those vehicles is more or less the same as sedans (all hovering around 3K lbs). What they actually meant is essentially just heavy duty pickup trucks, which are closer to 5K lbs.
- blueelephanttea 2y ago
  Yeah. The categories seem to be: - Compact cars (rare) - <3K LBs - Sedans / cross-over SUVs (RAV4, Crosstrek) - 3-4K LBs - Small 3 row SUVs (Pilot) / real SUVs (Explorer / Jeep) - 4-5K LBs - Big SUVs (Expedition) / Trucks - 5K+ LBs
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    I didn’t realize that the RAV was so unsafely light. I thought it would be a more respectable 4500 lb at least.
    - 0xbadcafebee 2y ago
      > unsafely light Can't tell if this is nerd ragebait or just a confused person
      - nothercastle 2y ago
        Obviously you have never driven in Florida. It’s downright scary to drive anything under 5000lb there. Biggest trucks and suvs everywhere it’s an arms race you can’t opt out unless you want some 80year old in a expedition max to take you out.
OutOfHere 2y ago
It's not just the kill rate. It's also how much more toxic tire dust pollution the heavier vehicles put out.
- hmottestad 2y ago
  Tires today contain a large amount of plastics. So what you are breathing while walking next to a road with a bunch of Teslas driving down it is basically a cloud of microplastics.
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    It's worse than regular microplastics. It's 6PPD which is N-(1,3-dimethylbutyl)-N'-phenyl-p-phenylenediamine, a lethal non-plastic amine. Moreover, this chemical has been accumulating in the environment, and making its way into food, so we're not just breathing it, but eating it too. Refer to DOI 10.3389/fenvs.2024.1384506
  - LUmBULtERA 2y ago
    Can you imagine being next to a bunch of Toyota Sienna driving parents? Those things are even heavier!
  - dham 2y ago
    Tires are just one of the many things that have gone nowhere. There has to be a better way.
- ordu 2y ago
  And I'd guess bigger cars lead to bigger road wear and tear, with all the consequences for the taxpayer and the environment.
  - occz 2y ago
    For a country so profoundly claiming to be in favour of free market economics, the U.S sure does love its system of socialism for motor vehicles.
seanw444 2y ago
Still driving my truck, sorry.
toddmorey 2y ago
Germany has a ratio of 3.9 deaths per 100,000 people, while America's ratio is 12.4 per 100,000—essentially 4x higher. And they have the autobahn. Not like they are driving slower.
- tootie 2y ago
  I think that's likely a function of miles driven. At least partially.
  - occz 2y ago
    That's part of the problem.
  - thih9 2y ago
    Per capita passenger mileage is 2x lower in Germany vs US[1]; it looks like this accounts for just ~half of the difference - and there are other factors responsible for increased mortality. [1]: https://frontiergroup.org/resources/fact-file-americans-drive-most/ https://frontiergroup.org/resources/fact-file-americans-driv...
    - stefan_ 2y ago
      Other factors indeed, like population density - I assume you won't like correcting for that.
      - thih9 2y ago
        On the contrary, please show how you would correct for that, ideally with sources.
      - bitcharmer 2y ago
        Why would you assume that?
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    Only ~1.8x as a function of kms driven. Still significantly better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...
chaboud 2y ago
This is a regulatory incentive problem, plain and simple: 1. CAFE standards use different rules for cars and light trucks. It’s a protectionist move that strongly pushes manufacturers to find ways to get CUV’s on the road instead of hatch backs and sedans. 2. And CAFE uses a “footprint formula” that relaxes standards for larger vehicles. 3. Compound that with a side impact test that started at 3,015 lbs (high) and then was amplified by the (private) IIHS test raising their sled weight (4,200 lbs?) to reflect average fleet weight, which turns into an arms race. In the end, people respond to incentives, and we get the cars we regulated for.
- smeggysmeg 2y ago
  Eliminate the 'light truck' exception to CAFE. Same standards should apply to truck bodies, retroactively to when CAFE began.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jasonmarks_ 2y ago
> In total, our dataset includes millions of crashes across 14 states between 2013 and 2023. A great source of data for this topic is the Fatality and Injury Reporting System Tool (FIRST) [a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration product]. Link: https://cdan.dot.gov/query https://cdan.dot.gov/query It has more data (covers all states) although VIN numbers do not appear to be in the dataset.
bradley13 2y ago
Easy fix: If you want less of something, tax it. The race to ever bigger vehicles has many costs, from road wear to (now we know) human lives. You pay an annual registration fee for your vehicle. Make that fee go up dramatically for heavier vehicles. If you pay, say, $100 for a car under a ton, make it $1k for up to two tons, $10k for 3 tons, etc..
- unstatusthequo 2y ago
  I am so tired of the comments where “tax it more” is the only solution to problems. I think we should tax posters who suggest this. Then we’d have less of those comments. Win win!
- coliveira 2y ago
  They know how to avoid this, because heavy autos are considered utility vehicles. They'll claim this is bad for the economy because small companies need access to utility vehicles.
  - AstralJaeger 2y ago
    This could simply be avoided by introducing a similar model to how it is handled over here in europe, with different vehicle classes and weight limits, a higher weight class requires a more advanced drivers license. Certain utlilty vehicles 3.5t and over can't be driven here without a D class license, which costs extra, requires extra training and the tax and fee structure for these vehicles is drastically different. Usually, these heavier vehicles also pay higher toll fees on toll roads like in France, Spain, Austria, Italy, etc. In Austria higher engine power vehicles also cost more on a monthly basis, while registration is a 150€ one time fee, monthly insurance and tax can be around 150€ for a 200hp ice vehicle, even just a Ford Fiesta.
    - bradfox2 2y ago
      There are already different classes of licensing in the US for larger industrial vehicles.
acd 2y ago
Let's consider the energy efficiency of moving a vehicle weighing about 2000kg to transport a person who weighs around 100kg. That's a ratio of vehicle to person of about 20:1. A potential solution would be to give heavier cars worse crash ratings. This approach would take into account not only the safety of the occupants of the car but also the occupants of other vehicles.
- robin_reala 2y ago
  I was going to ask who weighs 100kg, but then I looked it up at it turns out that the average male weight in the US is over 90kg(!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight#By_country
- globalise83 2y ago
  That's exactly how it works in the Euro NCAP ratings: https://www.euroncap.com/en/car-safety/the-ratings-explained/vulnerable-road-user-vru-protection/ https://www.euroncap.com/en/car-safety/the-ratings-explained...
whateveracct 2y ago
I just went to Navy Pier in Chicago and the size of cars people in the parking garage was just embarrassing. It really made them look stupid.
xnx 2y ago
I think the calculation for the buyer goes something like this: 1) Big cars are safer for their occupants 2) Nothing else matters more than that
- nothercastle 2y ago
  Yep also bigger cars can do slightly more.
  - AstralJaeger 2y ago
    Considering there are europeans sedans that have more cargo volume and are sginificantly shortler than some of these american battering rams
    - nothercastle 2y ago
      That’s because the us has no pedestrian impact design requirements and people like grills.
      - CRConrad 2y ago
        How does either of those lead to less cargo volume for the same or larger length?
        AstralJaeger 2y ago
        Lots of dead volume that isn't usable... unless you wanna smuggle drugs with these vehicles.
        CRConrad 2y ago
        "No pedestrian impact design requirements" --> no need to design in crumple zones --> less dead volume that isn't usable. "People like grills" --> Flat two-dimensional decoration on the front surface --> How would that affect dead volume in the interior? Your arguments aren't making sense to me.
haunter 2y ago
[flagged]
penguin_booze 2y ago
Sadly, there's no more a thing called Americans' problem. Like an STD, what are later realized as problems, usually start in the US and then spread across the globe. Not that the rest of the world doesn't have their own crap, but because US media and culture is (one of) the the loudest, what's seen in America is often interpreted as cool and then copied rather readily and quickly. Guns seem to be buckling the trend so far, however.
- golemiprague 2y ago
  [dead]
- hermitcrab 2y ago
  It is noticeable that large SUVs and pickup trucks are becoming more prevalent in the UK.
djaouen 2y ago
Not me. I am American and I don't even have a license!
Zigurd 2y ago
Big heavy pedestrian-killing trucks are just one facet among many of popularizing selfish, oafish, violent, thoughtless individualism as a culture underlying political beliefs that otherwise lack a connection to culture. Anti-vaxx, and other quack medicine is another such phenomenon. You only need to consider the 12 lives lost for every life preserved to see how shortsighted this is: unless you plan to live in your giant truck 24/7, you could be one of those 12. It's disturbing to see comments that celebrate and excuse wallowing in that subculture.
carabiner 2y ago
This was all caused by the CAFE emissions standards that allow cars with bigger footprints to emit more. Nobody wants bigger trucks, and in the Tacoma community it's a standard refrain to bemoan just how fucking big they've gotten. They aren't compact trucks anymore. They're midsize today. Compact trucks do not exist.
- AstralJaeger 2y ago
  I miss the days where PickUps were the size of the Fiat Strada and didn't have a turning radius of an Abrams M1 battle tank.
  - boojums 2y ago
    If my math is right, the Abrams has a tighter turning radius than a Miata due to how its steering works. The Miata is around 15ft while an Abrams turning would inscribe a circle with a radius of 14ft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEC9cCRwfkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEC9cCRwfkE
- 0xbadcafebee 2y ago
  A picture is worth a thousand words: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpUOgrdUYAELoAQ.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpUOgrdUYAELoAQ.jpg:large These two have the same bed length: https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/06/ES_TRUCK-ILLUSION_COMP.jpg?w=620 https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/06/E... I own a 2020 F150 and I hate how big it is. Turning radius is pathetic. You have to climb into the bed like you're scaling a mountain. There's two sets of steps to get into the front seat (which is gigantic, like it's made for someone 300lbs). I can't see what I'm backing up to. God help any little kid or animal in front of my truck, I'm not seeing 'em. Literally all I wanted was 2000+lbs payload and 4x4, and this was the best option.
  - CRConrad 2y ago
    > A picture is worth a thousand words: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpUOgrdUYAELoAQ.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpUOgrdUYAELoAQ.jpg:large I'm fairly sure that image is rather heavily manipulated.
tmnvix 2y ago
How much of this is consumer choice and how much is actually driven by manufacturers shaping the market in response to bad emissions regulation (CAFE)? When I was younger and regularly getting around on a bike, I used to view people in large, high vehicles with contempt. I don't anymore. I see them as victims of an industry that lacks moral responsibility. A quote from a GMC designer around the time this ridiculous SUV mania was taking hold: "I remember wanting it to feel very locomotive - like a massive fist moving through the air" It might not be obvious to Americans, but I find it very telling that American made vehicles are almost always the most 'aggressive', and often marketed that way. Why is that?
userbinator 2y ago
Big cars with horrible visibility combined with idiots (both in and outside of the car) who can't pay attention to where they're going because they're addicted to their media-consumption devices.
xqcgrek2 2y ago
The solution is easy. Humans shouldn't be the ones driving cars.
- CRConrad 2y ago
  OK, no cars then. Because the alternative is even worse. (Unless you have some new secret scheme of extremely well-trained animals...? What kind?)
dathinab 2y ago
in a lot of ways including unexpected ways e.g.. their love for humongous wide hard to maneuver fire fighting vehicles (and their over use in situations which shouldn't require a fire truck/engine) implicitly block a lot of improvements and often lead to forced wider lanes and other street design aspects which by now are well known to hugely contribute to more deadly accidents
amai 2y ago
Relevant YouTube Video: NotJustBikes: These Stupid Trucks are Literally Killing Us https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35202168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35202168
kristianp 2y ago
Are these trucks are built with cheap chinese steel? Perhaps a tariff on steel would help. Also how can people afford such enormous beasts? People don't seem to realise how much money theor cars cost when paid off via a loan.
tgtaptarget 2y ago
[dead]
ocean_moist 2y ago
As someone who drives a small somewhat sporty car I've almost died from a suburban mom in a Yukon or similar vehicle more than once. Also it is sad to see the disappearance of wagons from the US market. There is no better family car than an E55 AMG.
hintymad 2y ago
I was wondering if real investment into public transportation and the associated infra will help solve this issue. When I travel in some Asian and European countries, I really don't feel the need for a big car (a small one can still help). But in the US, a big SUV or a van is a godsend. Kids are happier. The wife is happier. Trips are easier. There are just so many benefits to have a big car... And the key word is "real investment". not the ones for California to build its high-speed railway, 7 EV charge stations for 7.5 billion dollars, or $300M for high-speed internet yet no family has got it
darkteflon 2y ago
Australia’s changed for the worse over the past 30 years as well. SUVs used to be the exception in urban areas, now they’re everywhere - usually with a single occupant. I saw an old Hummer H2 on the road the other day. They used to appear gargantuan to me. This time, what struck me was that it no longer looks shockingly larger than anything else on the road. There’s a real boiling frog vibe to inner city traffic. It’s so bad - so jammed up and so dirty - but we’re completely inured to it. It’s my fervent hope that the next generation - or perhaps the one after that - will think it very weird indeed to live and work alongside the byproduct of hydrocarbon combustion.
CHB0403085482 2y ago
Also "How USA Fire Departments Are Getting People Killed". Summary: forcing bad road design to accommodate giant fire trucks cause more car collisions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dHFC31VtQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dHFC31VtQ
euroderf 2y ago
Would it be so hard to introduce higher speed limits for tinier vehicles ? That might motivate people to trade "down".
fennecfoxy 2y ago
It's happening everywhere though, SUV sales are way, way up. 99% of people don't need a car like that. I went from NZ watching (medium sized, even!) utes climb literal mountains in rural areas to the literal flatland of London/Europe, watching people bound their way down narrow medieval lanes in a city in range rovers and defenders - 1 person per SUV. We're so doomed, lmao.
blackfawn 2y ago
One thing people often miss when talking about US cars getting bigger, particularly "small" trucks, is government regulation: https://youtu.be/azI3nqrHEXM https://youtu.be/azI3nqrHEXM
welzel 2y ago
There is a simple solution for this problem: increase the payout for people who are affected by overweight vehicles. Have a law, define a target weight + speed and then make it REALLY expensive to insure or kill people with your car. Also in the law: if you drive around without insurance, the car is instantly taken away from you, as it is a weapon to conduct a crime :-) Still people will drive big cars around, but the market will limit the number of people who can pay for it. And of course: new cars only and when ownership is transferred. No additional tax for existing owners. The market would solve this problem VERY VERY quickly.
- pants2 2y ago
  Truckers are required to have commercial licenses which makes traffic violations considerably harsher and more expensive. It would make sense to at least extend that to all vehicles over 5,000 lbs. Someone speeding in an F350 can cause a LOT more damage than someone speeding in a Miata, so penalties should be proportional.
prirun 2y ago
I think the car manufacturers became truck manufacturers because: 1) it allowed them to bypass the 70's fuel economy regulations, which applied to cars but not trucks (nor SUVs) 2) their profit margin was higher on trucks than cars
GBond 2y ago
The US Truck buyers likes to hate on the Honda Ridgeline (too car-like), but it is the most American choice: https://www.motor1.com/news/723746/honda-ridgeline-more-american-ford-chevy/ https://www.motor1.com/news/723746/honda-ridgeline-more-amer...

248 points by avyfain 2y ago

http://archive.today/faiXa http://archive.today/faiXa

I hate sounding like a broken record but my belief is that car makers are more excited about XXXXL cars in American than car buyers are. The media is consistently complicit in covering this up, sounding like the brainwashed soldiers in The Manchurian Candidate It's not to say that we don't like big cars because we do, but walk into a car dealership looking for a small car and they will tell you they are out of stock of new ones of the model you want because the factory washed out in a flood but then they have 100 SUVs in a row unsold that nobody wants to buy made in the same factory. Your only choice is a used return that somebody sold back to them yesterday afternoon. Go into a dealership looking for an S car and they will try to sell you an L, go in looking for an M and get an XL and so forth. If you drive out with a $25,000 car when you could could of driven out with a $50,000 car they perceive it as a $25,000 loss! No wonder mainstream car brands can't sell electrics.

kfarr 2y ago
Yes big cars = big margin, but that won’t last forever. And you’re right it’s a dealer/mfr preference not necessarily consumer.
ur-whale 2y ago
What would you do differently if you owned a dealership ?
- kfarr 2y ago
  Sell it and enter a better business that isn’t legacy rent seeking?
- abhay37 2y ago
  All prices of all components are listed, thus I have no reason to hire salesmen. You pick the components as if you are building a PC. There is a huge demand for this, and the savings from fewer middlemen can go elsewhere. Of course there are several laws and policies on national and statewide levels enshrining the current anti-consumer model because it "creates jobs".
  - tomcam 2y ago
    Wasn’t this the business model of Saturn?
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    Nobody would buy all weather floor mats for 600$ or protective finish applications if you could remove them. That’s why they bundle features you want with those you don’t
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      You're confusing dealer-added options with factory option packages. Cars bundle features together because they get better economies of scale by making only a few different versions of a model ("trim levels"), instead of letting everyone mix-and-match parts. Factories don't work that well when all the units aren't the same. Dealer-added options aren't added at a factory, they're added at the dealership, solely for the reason of inflating profit and convincing customers to roll the cost into their loan.
  - coliveira 2y ago
    Salesmen are not an expense, they're a profit center. Every company knows this. They will sell more expensive cars and increase the dealer's profit, that's why this model persists.
    - abhay37 2y ago
      Except in my imaginary scenario, me being the only dealership doing that would bring me much more from beating the competition. So others would need to adopt my model to compete if I were legally able to do what I claim (see my earlier post.)
- bgun 2y ago
  Arguing from the perspective of maximizing benefit to the producer/seller instead of the public at large speaks to a deep social epidemic. What would you do differently if you owned a cigarette factory? What if you owned Boeing?
- sheepdestroyer 2y ago
  What's the added value of dealerships? They feel like parasites. The mere idea of having to negotiate prices like in an flea market is disturbing and disgusting to me. I want to be treated fairly and as well as the next guy. Fixed & open construtor prices and warranties, online customisation and ordering should be the only norm.
  - ericjmorey 2y ago
    Warranty repair is the only advantage.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      That's not an advantage: in countries where the manufacturers own the dealerships (i.e., every country not named "USA"), they do warranty repair there too. There really is no advantage to independently-owned dealerships, except maybe in bribes to local politicians.
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    During normal times they add no value and create negative value for everyone. But during a downturn or when a manufacturer makes a dud model dealers can be forced to buy up excess and slowly feed it into the market as well as absorb the losses
  - coliveira 2y ago
    Dealerships are owned by rich people and they contribute a lot of money to local politicians. That's why they won't go away even though they are nothing but parasites.
- wffurr 2y ago
  Take all those customers looking for reasonably priced, reasonably sized cars and put the other guys out of business.
zug_zug 2y ago
Anecdotally I'm having trouble finding certain small cars in stock (e.g. crown platinum) and suspect there is some self-interest in the dealership to explains this. I think car-buyers are often under an illusion that an suv is "more car" when actually it's exact same components and just a larger frame. They'd much prefer to sell you the high-margin product and pocket the difference.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  > They'd much prefer to sell you the high-margin product The obvious answer to the entire scenario. There's no reason to go looking for hidden reasons: it's in plain sight.
  - bilegeek 2y ago
    Part of that high margin is because emissions and fuel economy laws are looser for truck-like vehicles, so they make everything a truck-like vehicle to avoid having to comply.
    - treis 2y ago
      The difference in gas mileage between SUVs and sedans is pretty negligible these days. They're mostly just cars with a different body style. And for the most part they're just flat better which is why they've mostly supplanted cars in the market. It's really trucks that have gotten stupidly big these days.
- doubled112 2y ago
  Sometimes I wonder too. The big thing to me is that I drive a 10+ year old station wagon, and I seem to have more cargo space than many of these MUCH larger vehicles. I only have two kids. I have room for the dog. I put the bikes on the roof. What would a SUV do for me? An extra couple inches of ground clearance. Increased towing capacity. Rarely needed those.
  - hermitcrab 2y ago
croes 2y ago
Seems like the market isn't working.
- psychlops 2y ago
  Cheap gas allows the cars to get bigger. Seems like the market has filled the gap as one might expect?
- antimemetics 2y ago
  I was thinking exactly that - shouldn’t capitalism regulate this kind of thing on it’s own or something
  - xpe 2y ago
    Self-interest strives to break (or break out of) competitive markets to one’s own benefit.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - smsm42 2y ago
    The idea that "capitalism" somehow magically makes everybody do exactly what any particular person or set of persons want to happen is fascinating. How could one arrive to such a conclusion? No, that's not how "capitalism" works. It does not guarantee that the things you want to happen magically will happen because "market".
  - randomdata 2y ago
    Not when government regulation favours larger vehicles (e.g. lower emission standards).
- cranekam 2y ago
  It clearly is. As the article makes out, the tax code and regulation favours large vehicles. Gas is cheap. Acting alone, there are few reasons to buy a smaller car if you can afford a bigger one. This is exactly the market “working” and why regulation is necessary to change it.
morkalork 2y ago
Didn't Ford flat out stop making sedans because SUVs and trucks have higher margins?
forrestthewoods 2y ago
I think there’s a lot of truth to this. Relatedly, it’s infuriating that American manufacturers are only interested in developing expensive, large, luxury EVs. We slapped a 100% tariff on cheap Chinese EVs… but our domestic companies refuse to develop a $20,000 compact EV! The cost of new cars in the US is insane. As is the protectionism of the industry. Give me cheap Japanese/Korean cars plzkthx.
- coliveira 2y ago
  The whole idea behind tariffs on Chinese products is that cheap prices will NOT be tolerated. The US is stuck with expensive cars for the foreseeable future.
  - leotravis10 2y ago
    That's what I tried to tell you folks. Good luck finding a car in the US that is under $20,000 these days because you won't find it: https://www.motor1.com/features/710453/cheap-cars-dead/ https://www.motor1.com/features/710453/cheap-cars-dead/ Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39731164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39731164 Dan Gillmor's thoughts: https://mastodon.social/@dangillmor/112102491028919681 https://mastodon.social/@dangillmor/112102491028919681 THIS is why we need Chinese automakers to keep the pressure on these US and EU automakers to produce cheaper cars again.
1986 2y ago
It's an arms race too, I'm in the market for a car now and would prefer something compact for city parking, but given that every _other_ car on the road these days seems to be an enormous SUV, I'm looking at probably at least a crossover so I won't constantly feel like I'm about to get steamrolled by a 4Runner or F150
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Bloating 2y ago
  sounds like you need anxiety meds
  - hermitcrab 2y ago
    If you can drive compact car on a US highway, then you are a braver person than me.
jonny_eh 2y ago
> walk into a car dealership looking for a small car and they will tell you they are out of stock of new ones of the model you want because the factory washed out in a flood Are you making this up?
- jrockway 2y ago
  A major difficulty in buying a car in the US is lowering your tolerance for sleaze enough to complete the transaction.
- Spooky23 2y ago
  Totally real. Post-COVID especially car dealers will make up all sorts of nonsense. Try to buy a base Civic or Corolla. They’ll literally run off and hide.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  No, it happened when I bought my Honda Fit.
- hysan 2y ago
  Anecdata - We had to buy a car last year to replace our old, but failing car. This matches the experience we had. We were ok with used, so that’s what we ended up with. If you’re on a tight budget, that’s where you’ll end up. From what we read and from what dealers said at the time, car manufacturers hadn’t recovered from COVID supply chain issues. And that is why there were so few small cars. We just accepted that as reality, but parent comment’s explanation would also make sense.
imglorp 2y ago
Some of us actively hate big cars for daily use and are angered at the "SUV" (usually neither sport nor utility) unithink forced on us, and are frustrated how hard it is to find anything different. I want basically an electric Miata for around town, can't get one. I also want an actual utility vehicle with a long, solid, roof rack to haul a canoe or sheet of plywood. SUV roof racks are usually token, if at all. A plain old "station wagon" that's not 6 feet tall would be just fine but they don't make those any more. I settle for an Outback but it's not ideal. So neither of my two usecases are served at all.
- globular-toast 2y ago
  Your comment shows how bad car culture is. You think you're the enlightened one, but you want an electric sports car for getting "around town"? People should be walking or cycling around town. Cars are actively harmful to towns. Cars have led to generations of people who don't realise they are capable of walking further than a few steps between car and building. A kind of learned helplessness. When you step outside of car culture it's really sad to see.
  - dnadler 2y ago
    People in US suburbs frequently live several miles from their town center, if they even have a town center at all. Cycling simply isn’t viable to large swaths of the US. There isn’t an easy answer to this either, given that you’d probably need to tear down entire neighborhoods and rebuild a more dense town
    - Zigurd 2y ago
      E-bikes fix most of those problems. A 10 mile trip, out and back, at 20mph, with no concern for loss of momentum at stop signs and lights is easily do-able by anyone who doesn't need mobility aids.
      - dnadler 2y ago
        That fixes it for certain types of people, but certainly not for most people in in the north east during winter.
Tanoc 2y ago
This is true to a ridiculous extent. Ford has no compact hatchback or sedan in the U.S., only the Brazilian built EcoSport. They killed all their cars in favour of CUVs and SUVs. Chevrolet no longer has the Sonic, having nixed those in 2022. Honda no longer has the Fit as of two years ago. Mitsubishi no longer sells the Mirage as of last month. Dodge hasn't had anything since the Dart died in 2016. The Jeep Renegade's gone as of October of last year. Hyundai had the Veloster, but those are all sold as top trim Veloster Turbo Premiums or Ns even when they were being sold. The current Hyundai Ioniq 5 is more of a mid-size and is also expensive for the size. Kia has the Forte, but it's dragging out a slow death this year. Toyota has the Yaris and Prius C, but the Yaris has grown quite large, and the Prius C is quite high priced. Nissan killed the Versa Note in 2022, so you can't get those either. It's all been replaced with "compact" CUVs that have the exterior dimensions of a mid-size hatchback.
- loeg 2y ago
  > [Ford] killed all their cars in favour of CUVs and SUVs. They still sell one car -- the Mustang.
  - ericjmorey 2y ago
    The mustang also comes in an SUV format now in addition to the sports car format.
    - Tanoc 2y ago
      They're spinning Mustang off into a sub-brand, like Chrysler did for Imperial. We're set to get a Mustang "offroader" sometime in 2027, and there's rumblings of a mid-size CUV to slot below the full-size Mach-E. Marketing loves these rub-off schemes meant to give inferior or fledgling products some of the shine of a halo product. They almost always end up failing, and even when they don't they damage the halo products after the first round of releases using the shared name.
      - hermitcrab 2y ago
roughly 2y ago
As folks elsewhere have noted, CAFE standards make "light" trucks substantially more profitable than other cars, and so yes, car makers have pushed them aggressively, including with strong marketing campaigns for the last 20 years or so. All of the arguments from car manufacturers that they're just "answering consumer demand" ignores the point that they manufactured that demand. Change the tax structures and incentives, make trucks as expensive for the manufacturer as they are for society, and you'll see a renaissance of small cars, advertising extolling the virtues of small cars, and a societal shift towards small cars.
- kbolino 2y ago
  CAFE has two problems. The first, as you've mentioned, is the suspect bifurcation of the standards between regular cars and "light trucks". The second problem is that the footprint-based formulas used within a category do not reflect the practical utility of the vehicles and let larger cars off easier. A high-roof compact car like the Honda Fit can comfortably carry 5 people and opens up quite well for transporting a lot of stuff. Because it's small and light, it gets great gas mileage especially on the highway. Yet it's penalized by CAFE because it has a small footprint and so is expected to get unrealistically high fuel economy. Whereas, a larger sedan like the Honda Civic can also carry 5 people (with some more amenities) but has a paltry trunk that can't be used to transport much more than grocery bags. Even as a hatchback, the roof is a lot lower than in the Fit, so it can transport larger items like furniture, but only if they're flat. Yet it scores better on CAFE because its larger footprint allows it to have more realistic fuel economy.
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
coliveira 2y ago
Let's not even talk about the fact that car prices are bordering on a national scam. They will list a certain model at price X, but that is only the price of the base configuration that is never on stock. Add to this all the fees that are practically impossible to escape, and car prices are always 50% or more higher than advertised.
coliveira 2y ago
The media has a sick tendency to attribute to individual choice situations that are clearly caused by powerful people benefiting from other people's misfortunes. For example, young workers cannot afford houses, becomes "generation XYZ doesn't WANT to buy homes". Workers cannot find good paying jobs becomes "people don't WANT to work anymore"; and so much BS like that we see everyday in our media.
jgalt212 2y ago
That's all well and good, but many people cannot afford a car that costs $25K more than they intended on paying (no matter how slick the salesperson).
sidewndr46 2y ago
The profit margins don't exist on the small vehicle you're looking for. There is limited to no incentive to manufacture it

baxuz 2y ago

re-gu-la-tion~

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

xwall 2y ago

Key Ideas: Heavier vehicles are safer for their occupants but more dangerous for others: The weight of a vehicle is a critical factor in car crashes, with heavier vehicles causing more fatalities in other cars, pedestrians, and cyclists. The heaviest vehicles kill more people than they save: Analysis of crash data shows that for every life saved by the heaviest 1% of SUVs and trucks, more than a dozen lives are lost in other vehicles. Weight advantages have changed little over time: Despite improvements in safety features, the weight advantage of heavier vehicles has remained relatively constant, with heavier vehicles still causing more fatalities in lighter vehicles. Carmakers prioritize consumer preferences over safety: Manufacturers are producing increasingly heavier vehicles, driven by consumer demand for larger, more powerful cars, despite the safety risks to others. Regulators are ill-equipped to address the issue: The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's rating system focuses on occupant safety, not the safety of other road users, and tax policies subsidize heavier vehicles. Public awareness and concern are growing: Surveys show increasing concern about the size and safety of SUVs and pickup trucks, with researchers and policymakers starting to take notice. Electrification may exacerbate the problem: The shift towards electric vehicles, which tend to be heavier than their internal-combustion equivalents, may increase the weight of vehicles on the road, further amplifying the safety risks.

dionian 2y ago
Sounds like a heavier car is actually safer to put me and my loved ones inside, at least for now.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Sounds like it's safest for me and my family to physically prevent you from doing that. See how deranged this line of escalation is? How sick in the soul I would have to be to choose to harm your family to increase the safety of mine? Can you see what kind of world you're building when you advocate this?
  - sieabahlpark 2y ago
    [dead]

SubiculumCode 2y ago

...and killing people in small cars.

kpmcc 2y ago

As impractical as it may be, I think the only answer is to limit the size of vehicles, either through taxation or an outright ban. Larger vehicles are worse for pretty much everything and many of the costs are externalized.

veggieWHITES 2y ago
A tax would make it even more dystopian. Imagine the rich paying for the right to murder people on the road.
- baq 2y ago
  1) always has been 2) ask them, they’ll tell you the rational explanation that from their perspective it’s irresponsible to not be the heaviest car on the road
- nothercastle 2y ago
  How is that any different than the current situation? It will just cost more.
- energy123 2y ago
  I don't care about your ideology. Tax works as a solution to deter behavior you don't want and raise revenue which can be spent on good things that make society function.
  - unstatusthequo 2y ago
    Nah there are other solutions to life’s problems than just taxes. HN loves taxing stuff. Don’t know why this site is stuck in single channel thinking.

tinyhouse 2y ago

It's not a love affair. Once there are large vehicles on the road, you cannot afford putting yourself at greater risk by not having a large vehicle yourself.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
Is that necessarily true? There are no smaller vehicles with overbuilt frames, more airbags, and better test rating? I look under the hood of "large" trucks and sometimes it's a lot of empty space. It looks like a paper tiger- it's fake big. I've also read somewhere that taller vehicles have a higher chance of rollover which could make them less safe than advertised.
- tinyhouse 2y ago
  That's fair. However, if my car is twice heavier and larger than yours, even if your car is well engineered and has great safety features and rating, you're likely to end up worse than me in an accident. Even if my chances of rollover are higher than yours.
  - XlA5vEKsMISoIln 2y ago
    Why is your life more worth than mine?

SubiculumCode 2y ago

Imagine a large truck, like Ford Super Duty F-450, but even heavier because its electric, and with the acceleration of a Tesla. Now imagine a testosterone filled teen driving it on the freeway after a couple of beers and wants to show off.

tqi 2y ago

One thing that surprised me is that when the article talks about "big cars", I had initially assumed they meant the ubiquitous family crossover SUVs (RAV4 / CRV and the like) that have more or less completely replaced the family sedans. However the curb weight of those vehicles is more or less the same as sedans (all hovering around 3K lbs). What they actually meant is essentially just heavy duty pickup trucks, which are closer to 5K lbs.

blueelephanttea 2y ago
Yeah. The categories seem to be: - Compact cars (rare) - <3K LBs - Sedans / cross-over SUVs (RAV4, Crosstrek) - 3-4K LBs - Small 3 row SUVs (Pilot) / real SUVs (Explorer / Jeep) - 4-5K LBs - Big SUVs (Expedition) / Trucks - 5K+ LBs
- nothercastle 2y ago
  I didn’t realize that the RAV was so unsafely light. I thought it would be a more respectable 4500 lb at least.
  - 0xbadcafebee 2y ago
    > unsafely light Can't tell if this is nerd ragebait or just a confused person
    - nothercastle 2y ago
      Obviously you have never driven in Florida. It’s downright scary to drive anything under 5000lb there. Biggest trucks and suvs everywhere it’s an arms race you can’t opt out unless you want some 80year old in a expedition max to take you out.

OutOfHere 2y ago

It's not just the kill rate. It's also how much more toxic tire dust pollution the heavier vehicles put out.

hmottestad 2y ago
Tires today contain a large amount of plastics. So what you are breathing while walking next to a road with a bunch of Teslas driving down it is basically a cloud of microplastics.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  It's worse than regular microplastics. It's 6PPD which is N-(1,3-dimethylbutyl)-N'-phenyl-p-phenylenediamine, a lethal non-plastic amine. Moreover, this chemical has been accumulating in the environment, and making its way into food, so we're not just breathing it, but eating it too. Refer to DOI 10.3389/fenvs.2024.1384506
- LUmBULtERA 2y ago
  Can you imagine being next to a bunch of Toyota Sienna driving parents? Those things are even heavier!
- dham 2y ago
  Tires are just one of the many things that have gone nowhere. There has to be a better way.
ordu 2y ago
And I'd guess bigger cars lead to bigger road wear and tear, with all the consequences for the taxpayer and the environment.
- occz 2y ago
  For a country so profoundly claiming to be in favour of free market economics, the U.S sure does love its system of socialism for motor vehicles.

seanw444 2y ago

Still driving my truck, sorry.

toddmorey 2y ago

Germany has a ratio of 3.9 deaths per 100,000 people, while America's ratio is 12.4 per 100,000—essentially 4x higher. And they have the autobahn. Not like they are driving slower.

tootie 2y ago
I think that's likely a function of miles driven. At least partially.
- occz 2y ago
  That's part of the problem.
- thih9 2y ago
  Per capita passenger mileage is 2x lower in Germany vs US[1]; it looks like this accounts for just ~half of the difference - and there are other factors responsible for increased mortality. [1]: https://frontiergroup.org/resources/fact-file-americans-drive-most/ https://frontiergroup.org/resources/fact-file-americans-driv...
  - stefan_ 2y ago
    Other factors indeed, like population density - I assume you won't like correcting for that.
    - thih9 2y ago
      On the contrary, please show how you would correct for that, ideally with sources.
    - bitcharmer 2y ago
      Why would you assume that?
- lucianbr 2y ago
  Only ~1.8x as a function of kms driven. Still significantly better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

chaboud 2y ago

This is a regulatory incentive problem, plain and simple: 1. CAFE standards use different rules for cars and light trucks. It’s a protectionist move that strongly pushes manufacturers to find ways to get CUV’s on the road instead of hatch backs and sedans. 2. And CAFE uses a “footprint formula” that relaxes standards for larger vehicles. 3. Compound that with a side impact test that started at 3,015 lbs (high) and then was amplified by the (private) IIHS test raising their sled weight (4,200 lbs?) to reflect average fleet weight, which turns into an arms race. In the end, people respond to incentives, and we get the cars we regulated for.

smeggysmeg 2y ago
Eliminate the 'light truck' exception to CAFE. Same standards should apply to truck bodies, retroactively to when CAFE began.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

jasonmarks_ 2y ago

> In total, our dataset includes millions of crashes across 14 states between 2013 and 2023. A great source of data for this topic is the Fatality and Injury Reporting System Tool (FIRST) [a National Highway Traffic Safety Administration product]. Link: https://cdan.dot.gov/query https://cdan.dot.gov/query It has more data (covers all states) although VIN numbers do not appear to be in the dataset.

bradley13 2y ago

Easy fix: If you want less of something, tax it. The race to ever bigger vehicles has many costs, from road wear to (now we know) human lives. You pay an annual registration fee for your vehicle. Make that fee go up dramatically for heavier vehicles. If you pay, say, $100 for a car under a ton, make it $1k for up to two tons, $10k for 3 tons, etc..

unstatusthequo 2y ago
I am so tired of the comments where “tax it more” is the only solution to problems. I think we should tax posters who suggest this. Then we’d have less of those comments. Win win!
coliveira 2y ago
They know how to avoid this, because heavy autos are considered utility vehicles. They'll claim this is bad for the economy because small companies need access to utility vehicles.
- AstralJaeger 2y ago
  This could simply be avoided by introducing a similar model to how it is handled over here in europe, with different vehicle classes and weight limits, a higher weight class requires a more advanced drivers license. Certain utlilty vehicles 3.5t and over can't be driven here without a D class license, which costs extra, requires extra training and the tax and fee structure for these vehicles is drastically different. Usually, these heavier vehicles also pay higher toll fees on toll roads like in France, Spain, Austria, Italy, etc. In Austria higher engine power vehicles also cost more on a monthly basis, while registration is a 150€ one time fee, monthly insurance and tax can be around 150€ for a 200hp ice vehicle, even just a Ford Fiesta.
  - bradfox2 2y ago
    There are already different classes of licensing in the US for larger industrial vehicles.

acd 2y ago

Let's consider the energy efficiency of moving a vehicle weighing about 2000kg to transport a person who weighs around 100kg. That's a ratio of vehicle to person of about 20:1. A potential solution would be to give heavier cars worse crash ratings. This approach would take into account not only the safety of the occupants of the car but also the occupants of other vehicles.

robin_reala 2y ago
I was going to ask who weighs 100kg, but then I looked it up at it turns out that the average male weight in the US is over 90kg(!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight#By_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_body_weight#By_country
globalise83 2y ago
That's exactly how it works in the Euro NCAP ratings: https://www.euroncap.com/en/car-safety/the-ratings-explained/vulnerable-road-user-vru-protection/ https://www.euroncap.com/en/car-safety/the-ratings-explained...

whateveracct 2y ago

I just went to Navy Pier in Chicago and the size of cars people in the parking garage was just embarrassing. It really made them look stupid.

xnx 2y ago

I think the calculation for the buyer goes something like this: 1) Big cars are safer for their occupants 2) Nothing else matters more than that

nothercastle 2y ago
Yep also bigger cars can do slightly more.
- AstralJaeger 2y ago
  Considering there are europeans sedans that have more cargo volume and are sginificantly shortler than some of these american battering rams
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    That’s because the us has no pedestrian impact design requirements and people like grills.
    - CRConrad 2y ago
      How does either of those lead to less cargo volume for the same or larger length?
      - AstralJaeger 2y ago
        Lots of dead volume that isn't usable... unless you wanna smuggle drugs with these vehicles.
        CRConrad 2y ago
        "No pedestrian impact design requirements" --> no need to design in crumple zones --> less dead volume that isn't usable. "People like grills" --> Flat two-dimensional decoration on the front surface --> How would that affect dead volume in the interior? Your arguments aren't making sense to me.

haunter 2y ago

[flagged]

penguin_booze 2y ago

Sadly, there's no more a thing called Americans' problem. Like an STD, what are later realized as problems, usually start in the US and then spread across the globe. Not that the rest of the world doesn't have their own crap, but because US media and culture is (one of) the the loudest, what's seen in America is often interpreted as cool and then copied rather readily and quickly. Guns seem to be buckling the trend so far, however.

golemiprague 2y ago
[dead]
hermitcrab 2y ago
It is noticeable that large SUVs and pickup trucks are becoming more prevalent in the UK.

djaouen 2y ago

Not me. I am American and I don't even have a license!

Zigurd 2y ago

Big heavy pedestrian-killing trucks are just one facet among many of popularizing selfish, oafish, violent, thoughtless individualism as a culture underlying political beliefs that otherwise lack a connection to culture. Anti-vaxx, and other quack medicine is another such phenomenon. You only need to consider the 12 lives lost for every life preserved to see how shortsighted this is: unless you plan to live in your giant truck 24/7, you could be one of those 12. It's disturbing to see comments that celebrate and excuse wallowing in that subculture.

carabiner 2y ago

This was all caused by the CAFE emissions standards that allow cars with bigger footprints to emit more. Nobody wants bigger trucks, and in the Tacoma community it's a standard refrain to bemoan just how fucking big they've gotten. They aren't compact trucks anymore. They're midsize today. Compact trucks do not exist.

AstralJaeger 2y ago
I miss the days where PickUps were the size of the Fiat Strada and didn't have a turning radius of an Abrams M1 battle tank.
- boojums 2y ago
  If my math is right, the Abrams has a tighter turning radius than a Miata due to how its steering works. The Miata is around 15ft while an Abrams turning would inscribe a circle with a radius of 14ft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEC9cCRwfkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEC9cCRwfkE
0xbadcafebee 2y ago
A picture is worth a thousand words: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpUOgrdUYAELoAQ.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpUOgrdUYAELoAQ.jpg:large These two have the same bed length: https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/06/ES_TRUCK-ILLUSION_COMP.jpg?w=620 https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/06/E... I own a 2020 F150 and I hate how big it is. Turning radius is pathetic. You have to climb into the bed like you're scaling a mountain. There's two sets of steps to get into the front seat (which is gigantic, like it's made for someone 300lbs). I can't see what I'm backing up to. God help any little kid or animal in front of my truck, I'm not seeing 'em. Literally all I wanted was 2000+lbs payload and 4x4, and this was the best option.
- CRConrad 2y ago
  > A picture is worth a thousand words: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpUOgrdUYAELoAQ.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EpUOgrdUYAELoAQ.jpg:large I'm fairly sure that image is rather heavily manipulated.

tmnvix 2y ago

How much of this is consumer choice and how much is actually driven by manufacturers shaping the market in response to bad emissions regulation (CAFE)? When I was younger and regularly getting around on a bike, I used to view people in large, high vehicles with contempt. I don't anymore. I see them as victims of an industry that lacks moral responsibility. A quote from a GMC designer around the time this ridiculous SUV mania was taking hold: "I remember wanting it to feel very locomotive - like a massive fist moving through the air" It might not be obvious to Americans, but I find it very telling that American made vehicles are almost always the most 'aggressive', and often marketed that way. Why is that?

userbinator 2y ago

Big cars with horrible visibility combined with idiots (both in and outside of the car) who can't pay attention to where they're going because they're addicted to their media-consumption devices.

xqcgrek2 2y ago

The solution is easy. Humans shouldn't be the ones driving cars.

CRConrad 2y ago
OK, no cars then. Because the alternative is even worse. (Unless you have some new secret scheme of extremely well-trained animals...? What kind?)

dathinab 2y ago

in a lot of ways including unexpected ways e.g.. their love for humongous wide hard to maneuver fire fighting vehicles (and their over use in situations which shouldn't require a fire truck/engine) implicitly block a lot of improvements and often lead to forced wider lanes and other street design aspects which by now are well known to hugely contribute to more deadly accidents

amai 2y ago

Relevant YouTube Video: NotJustBikes: These Stupid Trucks are Literally Killing Us https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35202168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35202168

kristianp 2y ago

Are these trucks are built with cheap chinese steel? Perhaps a tariff on steel would help. Also how can people afford such enormous beasts? People don't seem to realise how much money theor cars cost when paid off via a loan.

tgtaptarget 2y ago

[dead]

ocean_moist 2y ago

As someone who drives a small somewhat sporty car I've almost died from a suburban mom in a Yukon or similar vehicle more than once. Also it is sad to see the disappearance of wagons from the US market. There is no better family car than an E55 AMG.

hintymad 2y ago

I was wondering if real investment into public transportation and the associated infra will help solve this issue. When I travel in some Asian and European countries, I really don't feel the need for a big car (a small one can still help). But in the US, a big SUV or a van is a godsend. Kids are happier. The wife is happier. Trips are easier. There are just so many benefits to have a big car... And the key word is "real investment". not the ones for California to build its high-speed railway, 7 EV charge stations for 7.5 billion dollars, or $300M for high-speed internet yet no family has got it

darkteflon 2y ago

Australia’s changed for the worse over the past 30 years as well. SUVs used to be the exception in urban areas, now they’re everywhere - usually with a single occupant. I saw an old Hummer H2 on the road the other day. They used to appear gargantuan to me. This time, what struck me was that it no longer looks shockingly larger than anything else on the road. There’s a real boiling frog vibe to inner city traffic. It’s so bad - so jammed up and so dirty - but we’re completely inured to it. It’s my fervent hope that the next generation - or perhaps the one after that - will think it very weird indeed to live and work alongside the byproduct of hydrocarbon combustion.

CHB0403085482 2y ago

Also "How USA Fire Departments Are Getting People Killed". Summary: forcing bad road design to accommodate giant fire trucks cause more car collisions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dHFC31VtQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2dHFC31VtQ

euroderf 2y ago

Would it be so hard to introduce higher speed limits for tinier vehicles ? That might motivate people to trade "down".

fennecfoxy 2y ago

It's happening everywhere though, SUV sales are way, way up. 99% of people don't need a car like that. I went from NZ watching (medium sized, even!) utes climb literal mountains in rural areas to the literal flatland of London/Europe, watching people bound their way down narrow medieval lanes in a city in range rovers and defenders - 1 person per SUV. We're so doomed, lmao.

blackfawn 2y ago

One thing people often miss when talking about US cars getting bigger, particularly "small" trucks, is government regulation: https://youtu.be/azI3nqrHEXM https://youtu.be/azI3nqrHEXM

welzel 2y ago

There is a simple solution for this problem: increase the payout for people who are affected by overweight vehicles. Have a law, define a target weight + speed and then make it REALLY expensive to insure or kill people with your car. Also in the law: if you drive around without insurance, the car is instantly taken away from you, as it is a weapon to conduct a crime :-) Still people will drive big cars around, but the market will limit the number of people who can pay for it. And of course: new cars only and when ownership is transferred. No additional tax for existing owners. The market would solve this problem VERY VERY quickly.

pants2 2y ago
Truckers are required to have commercial licenses which makes traffic violations considerably harsher and more expensive. It would make sense to at least extend that to all vehicles over 5,000 lbs. Someone speeding in an F350 can cause a LOT more damage than someone speeding in a Miata, so penalties should be proportional.

prirun 2y ago

I think the car manufacturers became truck manufacturers because: 1) it allowed them to bypass the 70's fuel economy regulations, which applied to cars but not trucks (nor SUVs) 2) their profit margin was higher on trucks than cars

GBond 2y ago

The US Truck buyers likes to hate on the Honda Ridgeline (too car-like), but it is the most American choice: https://www.motor1.com/news/723746/honda-ridgeline-more-american-ford-chevy/ https://www.motor1.com/news/723746/honda-ridgeline-more-amer...