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My 3rd Gen Toyota 4Runner is old enough to drink and outside of routine maintenance requires almost no thought. "It's time to get a new car" given that car saf
by sharkweek 3y ago
My 3rd Gen Toyota 4Runner is old enough to drink and outside of routine maintenance requires almost no thought.
"It's time to get a new car" given that car safety has drastically improved and I have two younger kids in that thing a few times a week but I'm honestly having a really hard time giving it up, something so reliable and plainly functional.
New cars with all their computers and smart technology only look like expensive repairs to me, whereas if something breaks (again, rare!) on my extremely mechanical 4Runner, it's almost always something simple and relatively cheap.
Glad to see Yodas at the top of this list though, when mine finally kicks the bucket, will confidently get another one I suppose.
One of my favorite Onion articles: "Toyota Recalls 1993 Camry Due To Fact That Owners Really Should Have Bought Something New By Now"
https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fact-that-owners-reall-1819577805 https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa...
- rvbissell 3y ago3rd gen is best gen
- sharkweek 3y agoIt's just a fact, can't argue with it.
- vwcx 3y agoBiggest material regret of my last 5 years was getting rid of my 99 Limited. I worried about some of the pillar rust compromising safety with my kid in the car, but you couldn't beat the 3.4, rear locker, etc. Take my vote to not sell yours.
- AmVess 3y agoKeep the 4Runner and buy something new for a family hauler. New vehicles are much safer from a structural standpoint than older ones. Modern high strength steels form the safety cage of the vehicle, and greatly reduce the risk of injury in offset frontal impacts, side impacts, and rear impacts. And then you have the multitudes of air bags. Finally, the various electronic gizmos that further reduce risk of injury. The presence of high strength steels alone warrants a new vehicle purchase. Vehicles are disposable, people are not.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago> Finally, the various electronic gizmos that further reduce risk of injury. Combined with the various electronic gizmos and infotainment systems that further increase the risk of injury. :)
- saulrh 3y agoTo expand... - Improved FEM makes modern crumple zones deeper and smoother - Heavy use of composites dramatically improve the raw amount of energy absorbed by the car instead of the passengers - Better manufacturing methods mean parts can be shaped/placed to be less likely to enter the cabin - Better placement of more airbags means you're more likely to hit something soft - Better seats and better placements of better seat belts means you're less likely to snap something due to whiplash - Better brakes and steering geometry reduces your chance of losing control - Better brakes and steering geometry improves your ability to avoid other vehicles - Electronic stability control _massively_ reduces chances of rollovers - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves your ability to dodge other cars in emergency maneuvers - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves your ability to handle bumps and potholes and waves and black ice and other disruptions - Electronic stability control _massively_ improves the car's ability to go where you point the wheels regardless of speed or condition Seriously, especially if you're driving a truck or SUV, you _need_ electronic stability control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control: > According to the U.S. National Highway Traffic > Safety Administration and the Insurance > Institute for Highway Safety in 2004 and 2006 > respectively, one-third of fatal accidents > could be prevented by the use of the technology > Additionally, SUVs with stability control are > involved in 67% fewer accidents than SUVs > without the system > The IIHS study concluded that ESC reduces > the likelihood of all fatal crashes by > 43%, fatal single-vehicle crashes by 56%, and > fatal single-vehicle rollovers by 77–80%. > ESC is described as the most important advance > in auto safety Not "the most important since seat belts", not "the most important since air bags", not "the most important current advance". Electronic stability control is THE most important safety feature in modern automotive vehicles, the single biggest factor in whether you will die because you got in a car _period_, more than air bags, more than seat belts, more than crumple zones, more than _headlights_ or _tire compounds_ or _safety glass_. Preventing an accident entirely is better than any mitigation and ESC is incredibly good at preventing a huge class of accidents. And those numbers are from 2005-ish. Modern active rollover prevention and traction control systems and anti-understeer/oversteer controls are _even better_.
- yaomtc 3y ago> car safety has drastically improved Safety between cars, and within cars, has improved. However, due to the increasing size of the average vehicle on the road, among other factors, car safety for pedestrians/cyclists has decreased. https://www.npr.org/2023/06/26/1184034017/us-pedestrian-deaths-high-traffic-car https://www.npr.org/2023/06/26/1184034017/us-pedestrian-deat...
- selcuka 3y agoNever mind, misread the comment. I somehow assumed that the driver safety has decreased because of the increasing number of vehicles on roads.
- doubled112 3y ago"I'd like to hurt people worse if I hit them with my car" is a strange and brutal take.
- selcuka 3y agoAbsolutely right. Sorry, that wasn't my intention. I misread the comment.
- hackernewds 3y agoyou're very kind for apologizing
- Racing0461 3y agodon't apologise. this thread is filled with urbanists that aren't "debating" in good faith. Do not give an inch on the car debate because that won't be all they will take.
- vondur 3y agoPeople drive horrible now. Running lights, crazy lane changes, excessive speeding etc. Here in the US is started during the pandemic and hasn’t improved.
- webel0 3y agoYes, I keep on thinking that a premium market will develop for Toyota and Honda cars from roughly ~2006-2010. Those cars were the height of internal combustion technology without all of the electronics.
- nerdponx 3y agoI think that market has already developed. Look at prices for used cars from that time period.
- helij 3y agoThey will outlaw them soon enough and good riddance. Whenever I drive behind one of these older cars they usually stink.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- artificialLimbs 3y agoYou might like to push the recirculate button/lever when that happens.
- gnicholas 3y agoSeriously? Maybe a Honda Pilot, but not a Camry, Accord, or Civic, which are the big sellers during that era.
- DrThunder 3y ago[dead]
- A_D_E_P_T 3y agoYeah. I honestly don't know if I'd trade my 2006 Saab 9-3 Aero for a 2023 anything. No trouble, no nonsense, it's fast enough, it doesn't nag at me if I drive around the block without my seatbelt, and minor repairs are rarely more than $100. A few years back, I had a late model Mercedes GLS, and the damn thing was in the shop almost every other month, and each time it was at least $300-400. Mostly it was electronic components that were at fault; an error in the anti-theft system which cost me $2000 was too much to bear, and I sold the car at a loss...
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y agoI bought a 2004 corolla off the lot and my experience has been the same. legitimately the only major repair I've ever needed is to replace the oil pan and that was my fault. runs like a champ, I literally just got back from driving it about 10 minutes ago. It looks ugly as sin as over the years people have thrown themselves at the vehicle, including a line down the passenger side where a fedex semi took a left turn too sharply, but it runs beautifully. Part of that is maintenance, of course, but if you treat'em well they'll treat you well.
- carabiner 3y ago2015 tacoma it's the same. marvel of engineering
- w0m 3y agoI miss my 2014 Taco.
- SilasX 3y agoInteresting contrast with the Onion’s other parody, Ford marketing a used 1993 car as the option for poorer buyers “who just need to get from their mother-in-law’s to the unemployment office”. https://www.theonion.com/ford-unveils-new-car-for-cash-strapped-buyers-the-1993-1819594878 https://www.theonion.com/ford-unveils-new-car-for-cash-strap...
- mattpallissard 3y agoI have kids and value their safety but they can pull my 90's Honda and Chevy from my cold dead hands /irony
- w0m 3y agoMaybe they won't break down, but they have ~none of the modern safety features to keep them, uh, safe.
- denvaar 3y ago> extremely mechanical 4Runner Same sentiment for my washer/dryer. Bought an older (used) set for $300, They have lasted 7 years so far, which is in addition to however long they were in use before: I would guess at least 7 more. Seems like lots of people lament how things like cars, refrigerators, washers, etc. are becoming less mechanical and more electronic. Maybe there's a market for "bespoke" mechanical items.
- emodendroket 3y agoI don’t think all that many people really feel this way in the end. A significant majority of new car buyers feel very strongly about having Apple CarPlay for instance. And hey, me too.
- matt_heimer 3y agoAdding Apple CarPlay or Android Auto to older vehicles is easier than adding it to a newer one. On a newer vehicle you have to worry about car systems like the AC, seat controls, etc being integrated into the infotainment system. On an older car with a single din radio (w/ cassette deck or cd) you can just buy an off the shelf radio that has CarPlay and Android Auto.
- emodendroket 3y agoYeah but that’s just one example. As much as I like to imagine myself as a practical driver who might want to do performance driving or whatever, in reality I like all the creature comforts of a modern car.
- underlipton 3y agoElectronic stuff is still reparable. Probably even more cheaply, in some regards (certainly material cost). We've just been made to become accustomed to viewing electronic devices as disposable/primarily replaceable. And while most people have turned a wrench before, knowing how to use a soldering iron/heat gun/magnifier effectively is not a common skill. Could be, though.
- SkyPuncher 3y agoFWIW, the computers don’t tend to break. The things that do break are essentially the same as they were 20 years ago. The bells and whistles are mostly for creatures comfort. The mechanical components haven’t changed much. The only thing that I couldn’t fix on my own in my 2020 vs my 2006 was re-alignment of lane keep system after replacing the windshield.
- _AzMoo 3y agoI have a 2021 Subaru Forester and the sensors are a nightmare. The computers are fine, but the sensors are extremely problematic.
- metadat 3y agoThe littany of sensors begin to go bad after 6-7 years in many newer cars.
- 1-6 3y agoI’ve had malfunctioning servos that can’t seem to keep still. It affects the recirculation and air controls but that’s about it.
- calvinmorrison 3y agoThat's not a new problem. My experience is the most reliable actuators are simple vacuum spring design but they're so much more complex to route and take up space.
- richiebful1 3y agoI wish we never got rid of manual windows. Those servos are the most annoying thing I've had to replace on my vehicle yet
- SkyPuncher 3y agoWhich sensors? All of the important sensors have been in cars for years and years at this point.
- 3y ago
- katbyte 3y agowent from a MT 3rd gen 4runner to a MT 3rd gen 2022 tacoma - aside from the 4wd shifter being electronic no complains!
- Lazare 3y agoInterestingly the article actually calls out the 4Runner as "among the most reliable models in the survey". Apparently the newer model years are still pretty solid!
- sciurus 3y agoThe 4Runner hasn't been redesigned in a long time. A 2024 4Runner is substantially the same as a 2010 4Runner. Rumor has it that Toyota will finally unveil a new design for the 2025 model year. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_4Runner#Fifth_generation_(N280;_2009) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_4Runner#Fifth_generat...
- ghaff 3y agoOn the other hand anecdata, I had a 13ish year old 4Runner with only about 70K miles lose a transmission line on me a couple years back. The dealership shrugged and said maybe it was a chip on the coating from a piece of gravel. Though it may well have been a manufacturing defect. In any case, ended up having to nurse the vehicle home and basically nurse it 2 months until I could get a new Honda. Which I actually like a lot better. The 4Runner is a very old platform. Other than the infortainment system, a rental I coincidentally had a couple years back was basically identical to the fairly poor handling SUV I had for 10+ years.
- fingerlocks 3y agoWhat is a transmission line?
- ghaff 3y agoAutomatic transmission hydraulic fluid line.
- richiebful1 3y agoWhy did the transmission line require replacing the vehicle? I've replaced them on a cargo van...it was cheaper and easier than a pair of rear drum brakes, a normal piece of routine maintenance
- AlbertCory 3y agoThere's one thing about "newer" cars (mine's a 2014) that older cars don't tend to have, and that's the ability to make the car beep remotely. That is insanely valuable in large parking lots. Bluetooth stereo: that, you could install after-market.
- randerson 3y agoI've solved the parking lot problem with a $29 Apple AirTag.
- imwally 3y agoIf you use Apple CarPlay or connect your iPhone to Bluetooth Apple Maps will remember where you parked your car once you disconnect. I use this feature quite a bit to know how far I have to walk back to the car when I’m out on a hike. Though, I imagine an AirTag will give you more precise location.
- matt_heimer 3y agoWe used to install security systems with remotes in our old cars. Using the remote to trigger the alarm/horn works exactly the same as it does today.
- hackernewds 3y agoit's an inanimate car that is dispensable. your family's life is not. there is a DRASTIC difference in safety and survivability of newer cars. I would switch over yesterday
- ChumpGPT 3y ago2000 4Runner 2x4 (I think last year made in Japan) 320k miles. Still original alternator, starter and every other major component (transmission, rear end, etc). I am not sure but may have replaced water pump about 10 years ago but I could be wrong and it still might be original. Just tires, brakes, battery and religiously change oil every 3k. Has a little hail damage but other than that looks new and feels dependable and drives well. It is my first Toyota...
- StillBored 3y agoYes, 1999 Tachoma, is largely the same thing, although there is a laundry list of things that need to be done as basic maintenance, which I assume is the same on the 4runner since they are basically the same vehicle. Mine needed rear axle seals, timing cover seals, and I did the water pump preventatively as part of the timing belt change, also because I have the warm climate version, the starter is too small and eats the starter contacts every ~70K or so miles, and last time I just swapped in the higher current starter instead of doing the contacts for the 3rd time. It also has grease fittings on the drivetrain that, if not greased on a regular schedule (read maybe every ~10K miles), will squeak, the mass airflow sensor needs to be cleaned on nearly the same schedule as even tiny amounts of contamination throws it off and the gas mileage will suffer and eventually the 5ZVFE will knock because of it. And because it doesn't have auto tensioners on the belts, they need to be checked and adjusted every 40K or so, etc. Lots of extra maintenance that some of the newer Toyotas don't seem to require. And of course, just about all of the toyota truck/4runners/etc of that era a super sensitive to brake and tire wear issues which turn them into vibration machines if not kept in perfect alignment/wear/etc because apparently the suspension/etc are so lightweight. Plastic headlamp fog is another one. While yes, things that seem to wear out on other vehicles seem to be designed for the vehicle's life (alternators, wheel bearings, AC, cabin controls, etc). (ex my 201x 4.6L tundra, which is plugs every 100K, brakes, tires and fluids, oh and hell the battery on that thing even lasted 2x as long as it was labeled for, I just replaced it last year) Anyway, many of those items can be ignored for a long time if the vehicle is treated like a 20 year old beater. Things like the rear axle seals can leak into the rear drums and largely be missed until someone notices that the rear diff has been run for 100k miles with barely any fluid, and is cooked. The same is true for the valve covers; they seep in the back near the firewall or onto the exhaust manifold. Unless you look for it, there won't be enough oil lost between changes to notice.
- purpleblue 3y agoI have a 2012 Honda Fit that they will need to pry off my cold dead hands. It's my favorite car of all time, it's everything that I want from a car. Except possibly a larger gas tank.
- shoelessone 3y agoFellow 2012 Fit owner. I bought it after reviewing carcomplaints.com and finding it was a very reliable car by their metrics, all the top problems are related to accessories.
- tylerstorm 3y agoI have a 2009 Honda Fit and feel the same way. 181k miles and still working perfectly!
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y agoYou and me both, Fit Fiend! We had to do something with the spark coils/plugs last year, but other than that, no repairs except routine maintainance (tires, oil, filters etc). Amazing vehicle, very sad that Honda initially talked about an EV version and then pivoted to "no more Fit in North America"
- germinalphrase 3y agoAlso a happy Fit owner. Apparently, there exists a hybrid, 4wd Fit in Japan. We don’t get the cool stuff in the US.
- Valakas_ 3y ago2003 Honda fit owner here @ 180Mm. Outside regular maintenance, not once have I had to take it to the mechanics. Zero issues. This car was the pinnacle.
- smoyer 3y agoI have a 2006 Toyota Sienna that's approaching 300k miles and a 2001 Mercedes that's got about 220k miles. That's almost the top and bottom of the list and IMHO it's all about regular maintenance. I have a 2008 Honda FIT with under 100k and it constantly needs something.
- Infernal 3y agoI’ve got an 08 Fit as well, in 15 years and 150k miles I haven’t had to do anything outside of brakes/ignition coils/spark plugs. What sorts of things have gone wrong with yours?
- smoyer 3y agoBroken front sway bar linkage, leaky caulk art the rear roof seams well-known), spots where the paint wasn't right, early death of DI coils (they should get more than 60k), rodents eating the wiring harness (twice) as Honda uses what they claim is environmentally friendly insulation. But yeah ... I forgive plugs, oil changes, brakes, filters, etc as it's PM that has given my other cars their longevity.
- porknubbins 3y agoPeople complain about new cars being harder to fix because of electronics but I think post OBDII they are actually easier because they tell you what is broken with error codes and also forums of experts are just a click away. I do think its true that you can no longer be a diy hotrodder for most models because there is so much complexity with timing, emissions, fuel efficiency strategies, variable valve timing etc.
- bane 3y agoI think it's interesting that reliability seems to have two common semantic meanings: 1) Doesn't break 2) Easy to repair I've had this discussion numerous times over the years and the second meaning, while surprising, seems to come up frequently. "My Toyanda is ultra reliable" "So is my 76 Esquinot. It's really easy to fix, <insert reason why>."
- samplatt 3y ago1) can be a result of 2). When a car makes regular maintenance really easy and/or cheap, it's going to be more likely to never break. My Toyota Prado had the oil filter easily accessible at the top of the engine bay instead of being a PITA deep underneath near the sump, and had a "lip" around the seal to catch oil drips and divert down a hole to a catch line. Makes me actively angry that this design isn't universal.
- technothrasher 3y ago> also forums of experts are just a click away. I've found most car forums tend to drive the real experts away due to them being full of blowhards. The real experts get tired of getting told by these folks they don't know what they're talking about, and end up creating closed invite only forums to trade info and advice on that the casual shade tree mechanic has no access to. I completely gave up on Rennlist after I asked a question about the turbo control system on the Porsche 951 only to realize many useless replies later that these people didn't even understand the basic theory behind how a turbo works. I answered my own question by bench testing an old junk turbo I bought on eBay and reported back to the forum only to be yelled at for not trusting their 'expert' advice. I've had similar experiences on other forums. Don't even get me started on the internet myths of DOT5 brake fluid that pretty much every forum takes as gospel. Even stacks of research papers and mandatory legal requirements don't keep people from spreading false information. Who needs all that nonsense? I now typically just pick up the phone and talk to experts I have personally worked with.
- m463 3y agoThe only argument I can find against old pickup trucks would be lack of safety equipment. even with expensive gas.
- rascul 3y agoCrappy fuel mileage except for some of the small trucks. Can be a bit dangerous on slick roads with no weight in the back. Easy to hit things and people while turning if you're not used to the size, and even if you are. Parts can be more expensive than one might think.
- BluePen7 3y ago> Parts can be more expensive than one might think. Couldn't agree more, due to their added size maintaining/operating a Silverado 1500 was similar to maintaining my Lexus. Reliable enough, but bigger tires, brakes, rotors, more fuel, etc.
- palemoonale 3y agoYou don't want the amount of SW in youger cars though, and all these nanny annoyances.
- aceazzameen 3y agoI hear ya. We have a Toyota that's over a decade old at this point. It only ever needs routine maintenance. We'd like to purchase something newer for the same reasons as yours. But also everything is now "smart" and always online. Just like I want my TVs, I want a dumb vehicle with buttons and knobs. But dumb with premium features like how vehicles used to be, not the cheapest barebones models.
- dzhiurgis 3y agoDo you have to waste time filling gas in it and drive yourself? Sounds like cool hobby /s
- matwood 3y agoNot quite as old, but I drive a 2007 Tundra. Does all the things I need it to do. About a year ago I replaced the foggy headlamps and people thought I had gotten a new car lol I was at the Toyota dealership not long ago and the mechanic says, “we’re not supposed to say this, but if you just do basic maintenance these cars will go for 20+ years. No way would I sell this for a new one. They cost too much now.”
- sethammons 3y agoI had one of those and it turns out they don't have true four wheel drive, but rather an antilock rear differential. It is controlled by a sensor that can freeze in icy conditions and fail to engage. Living in Montana, we had to sell the otherwise perfect truck for something that could reliably get up our driveway in winter.
- fingerlocks 3y agoIt was the TRD package that had the locking differential which was electronically actuated, right? But that’s entirely separate from the “true” 4x4 with the barrel drive shaft synchronizing the front and year diffs. Did you have a pre-runner? Some of those were sold with funky combinations that have the locking diff but a crippled 4x4 that disengages when you hit 10 mph.
- matwood 3y agoMine didn't have 4WD at all - don't need it where I live. My use case was hauling stuff in the bed and towing a boat. When I purchased the truck, it was one of the cheapest trucks with the towing capacity required for my boat.
- sspiff 3y agoI'm in a similar boat. I drive an 07 Volvo wagon, and it's practical, mostly reliable besides the odd repair and replacing wear items. It's still relatively safe, at least in terms of passive safety (it has a well engineered crash structure, curtain side impact airbags, etc). It drinks fuel like a drunk uncle drinks wine at a wedding, burns and leaks a little oil, etc. Fuel is very expensive where I live (currently around $8,3 to the gallon), so that's a thing. But mostly, modern cars are extremely expensive and just not appealing to me as a driver or as an owner. I'd have to go through a ton of repairs and fuel before I'd break even on a new car, I can probably drive my car for more than a decade still before it gets to that point. Pair that with Mozilla's Privacy Not Included report[0], pervasive tracking in modern cars and bullshit practices like "heated seats as a subscription", and I'm out. I'm considering just buying a good shell of a car and have it converted to EV when the time comes to replace the Volvo. An EV conversion is about $30-35k for a professional to plan, build, execute and certify. If I want to buy a car that matches or exceeds the comfort, practicality and joy of my Volvo, I'm looking at $60k+ on the new market, at least. [0] https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/article...
- tim333 3y ago$30-35k would be a good price. I've seen quotes like 3x that.
- BluePen7 3y agoYou attribute it's reliability to it's simplicity, but I'd argue Toyota simply builds things to a better standard. As most people know, Lexus is also Toyota, and I've been driving a fully loaded luxury sedan from 2008 that also gave me no problems I didn't cause. It had plenty of fancy do-dads (that are pretty standard nowadays), a steering wheel and seat that moved into place upon entry, adaptive headlights that swivel and self-level, heated/ventilated seats, backup camera and infotainment, etc. Only time I thought it was acting up (error with the self-levelling headlights), I discovered something had bashed the entire sensor bracket off the undercarriage. Replacing the bracket fixed it immediately. It made it to 280,000km (175k miles) before a red-light runner wrote it off, and it went to the scrapyard without even the check engine light on. Meanwhile the equivalent BMW fell apart on me in half that mileage, and hell, so did an F150 actually (and it was as basic as could be!)
- jjav 3y ago> it's almost always something simple and relatively cheap That's a key point. Reliability might be good these days, but long-term repairability is very low. It's come to the point that even a mind-dumbingly trivial change like changing a brake light bulb or a battery can't be done (on a BMW, surely many other brands) without access to factory repair computers. So when the factory stops supporting your particular model, what then? I firmly believe that a century from now we'll still have historical cars from the 1950s-60s running around, but surviving cars from the 2020s will be extremely rare, since they can't be repaired beyond factory support.
- instaheat 3y agoI certainly plan on driving my 2019 4Runner for as long as I possibly can.
- 1905 3y ago> when mine finally kicks the bucket, will confidently get another one I suppose. If you can legally buy one. In the near future you might not be able to transfer ownership over on older cars because of their "emissions" and new state or federal restrictions
- jamesboehmer 3y agoThis has never happened in the United States, and every expert out there says there is no sign of any kind of effort or legislation to do so. Involuntarily losing access to old cars is an imagined problem.