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What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. I imagine

by taf2 3y ago

What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. I imagine we're in uncharted territory given in less then my lifetime USB was invented and has gone through at least 14 iterations e.g. it's been changing very fast. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some, but I think it's an interesting question because unlike other things in history we're seeing such rapid iteration. Maybe the laws in the EU have accounted for this - it just seems like a short term good thing that could be not so great in a few years down the road... thoughts?

epolanski 3y ago
The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. What EU wants to avoid is Apple giving "unfair" advantages to their own chargers (which could either come from Apple making better chargers or artificially slowing third party ones) defeating the purpose of having less electronic waste.
- ewalk153 3y ago
  Like you point out, the “unfair[ness]” of making better chargers faster than the EU standard can keep pace threatens to revert to least common denominator experience in the name of less waste.
  - irdc 3y ago
    Not really: following public standards will never be seen as unfair. So a manufacturer merely implementing USB-PD 5.0, which allows for 2 megawatt via water-cooled copper, to fast-charge their devices is in the clear.
- frankfrankfrank 3y ago
  I’m all for some kind of universality, but this authoritarian method does not strike me as a good idea. You lament their concern with fairness, by giving unfair advantages to the USB-C license holders/patent holders? I’m not even sure people understand that Apple also contributed heavily to the development of USB-C along with other companies, some of them European. The irony is that I believe the Lightning Connector, the iPhone connector, has been the longest standing standard connector (11 years now) and the introduction of the Qi “wireless charging” is also a good argument against this narrow sighted EU authoritarian/communist mentality that some apparatchiks can make better decisions than those who actually do and create things. Has someone actually asked Apple to lay out its reasons for not adopting the larger and bulkier USB-C? Could it be that it has something to do with trying to engage in economic warfare against Apple because it’s harder to compete?
  - vidarh 3y ago
    The EU tried the soft approach for many years, and Apple stubbornly refused to play. "This authoritarian method" of representing the populations they are meant to represent as part of a democratic society rather than letting companies continue to do what they want came with ample warning. EDIT: Someone asked about the mandate for it, and deleted, but worth pointing out that the EU parliament supported this with a majority of 602 to 13, so it has support literally from the far left to the far right.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - frankfrankfrank 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - tankenmate 3y ago
        Apple refused to implement mirco-USB when the EU issued guidelines to use USB because of electronic waste. Apple refused to even talk to the EU about it. So with Apple refusing to engage with the elected representatives of the EU then the EU got to the point of having to force Apple to engage; legislation. TLDR: The EU wanted less e-waste. Apple refused to engage, so the EU forced them to engage or leave.
        frankfrankfrank 3y ago
        The problem is that the EU is illegitimate and a circus clown shoe of pencil necked bureaucratic authoritarians. I’m not even a fan of Apple look e for different reasons, but the very same reason Apple is likely not even engaging the EU clowns and their attempt at making Apple products worse with Micro USB (what a horrible design and technology because of it), it’s also the very same reason that the EU cannot ban Apple, because Apple is to god and the market leader in design and creating good products that people actually want. I can assure you that Apple’s lightning connector has caused there to be less waste than any other manufacturer. Case in point too; I just bought a temporary Nokia phone. And here it is, 2023, and they’re still using that horrible MicroUSB design plug that you have to look at every single time to make sure you get the plug in correctly. OUSD also discriminatory against the blind who have to feel they plug itself to figure out which way is up, whereas I can plug the lightning connector into any of the Apple devices in pitch black darkness because they go in the same every time.
- rocketbop 3y ago
  > The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces, because they aren't releasable in Europe. I suppose such products might get released first in the US, but which large tech company if going to ignore the EU market when releasing important products?
  - Deukhoofd 3y ago
    They can propose it to the USB Implementers Forum, standardize it as a new USB standard, and pass it to the EU.
    - hartator 3y ago
      So, the EU is now in charge of deciding USB implementation?
      - Deukhoofd 3y ago
        No, the EU follows the industry standards. The industry standards for connectors are currently decided on by USB-IF, as almost the entire industry is a member of it. This means that when USB-IF releases a new standard, the EU will add it to the legislation.
  - epolanski 3y ago
    > Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces Yes, that's the point. Instead of anyone releasing products with new power interfaces the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. I think it's reasonable and only a positive thing. If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard.
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      > the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. That’s not part of the regulation whatsoever > If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard. But the industry doesn’t come together and pick a standard. The EU did. The closest industries came to picking a standard were freely choosing from many different formats that emerged. Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed. Now consider that the EU would still have to approve it. The conclusion made from that Herculean effort might just be null and void. Also consider that this sounds a lot like is collusion. These companies would never get as far as sitting down with each other and are even less likely with this EU regulation. What’s worse is this all completely subjugates new players, who may be more likely to innovate and which can’t abuse any existing user base, to the current phone market. They would never have a seat at the table.
- worrycue 3y ago
  Who decides when we will update? If there are competing standards next round, who gets to decide which one? The very corruptible EU?
hardware2win 3y ago
This has been discussed like bilion times in threads like this The concept was iirc that industry will be reevaluating what needs to be standard
mrtksn 3y ago
> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug EU laws are not like physics laws, you can change them. That's why so many people are employed in policy and law making. So if it happens that in the land of cable freedoms they come up with something much better, it would be adopted. At first, those electronics which can accommodate more than 1 type of charging plug will start getting this new plug alongside with USB-C and if there's actual demand for it they law will be changed to allow only that plug. I don't know how much if this is about environmental concerns, I'm under impression that EU is never happy about rent seeing companies and tries to standardise everything. That's probably why it's going after browsers and App stores: it expect company products to be picked for competitive reasons, not compatibility reasons. Another example is EUs enforcement of standardized EV charging plugs, arguably Tesla plugs can be better but overall it's better for everyone to be able to charge everywhere even if it was possible to have slightly better charging plugs on some stations. I imagine, the US citizens are confused by all this due to the nature of how EU and US function. With GDPR, the American audience was imagining that startups will go bankrupt when trying to comply with EU law and there were tantrums about some people abandoning their projects because they don't have resources to deal with EU regulations. Maybe it's because how lawsuit happy the US is, maybe it's because how the laws are enforced in US is different than most of EU - I don't know, but in general Europeans feel differently than Americans about the government involvement.
- throwaway50606 3y ago
  How do you know how to change the laws if nobody is allowed to try different things (thus innovate)? USB-C didn't come from nowhere, and it wasn't a given that it's better than MicroUSB - first the market tested it, then it became a standard. EU laws have worldwide effects, there's no land of cable freedom anymore.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    EU laws don't expand beyond EU. EU consist about 5% of the population, 95% can have whatever they like. Yes, there's Brussels effect but that effect work when the trouble of designing or producing something else is not worth it. Also, you are not banned from engineering other solutions. The police isn't going to knock on the doors of engineers who are suspected to develop better charging cables :)
nickpp 3y ago
If the new plug comes from a big company (like Apple) then maybe they have the time, money and lawyers to push it through the bureaucratic layers a couple of years until maybe it gets approved. However, there is very little chance for that to happen now, considering most of innovation comes from small startups who don't have the resources or disposition to research something that is illegal to put on the market. So we are stuck with USB-C and committee-driven "innovation" for the foreseeable future. Hopefully Apple will not adopt this forced mandate on other markets and maybe they can innovate there and back port the improvements to the EU. Most of tech innovation currently happens in the US anyway. We'll see, but I am not optimistic. Large companies always benefit from regulations since they have the resources to comply while denying a possible differentiator for small companies.
- crote 3y ago
  > most of innovation comes from small startups Right, just like how USB-C was invented by small startups like AMD, Intel, Apple, and Google. Before standardization the only "innovation" we were seeing was how many obscure connector shapes people could come up, all using the same voltages and currents. > something that is illegal to put on the market It is not. You can 100% put something on the market which has both your MagicConnector 3000 and USB-C.
NikolaNovak 3y ago
I think it's relevant, but I feel there's a good precedent already - didn't europe previously mandate Micro-USB, since like 2010?
- dahfizz 3y ago
  No, this is a common misunderstanding. The EU previously issued a Memorandum of Understanding, which basically just asked phone manufacturer nicely to please use USB micro-B. There was no mandate or enforcement (obviously, because Apple never released a phone with micro-B). The USB-C law is an actual law which can't be ignored. The law will need to be updated when USB-D comes out.
  - detourdog 3y ago
    It would have been ridiculous to drop lightening for micro-b. The whole e-waste argument I found lacking. I hope Apple makes a Freedom phone if the EU interferes too much with progress.
  - crote 3y ago
    If I recall correctly, the Memorandum of Understanding was basically "please come up with an industry-standard connector", not "use micro-B".
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      Clearly they figured out that a friendly note wasn’t good enough.
stephc_int13 3y ago
Standards are good for everyone, even when very old and seemingly outdated. Being "locked" on a a few not awful standard connectors is a good thing. The Edison screw bulb is very simple, reliable, still used today even if I am sure that many companies would have invented more sophisticated standards over the years, I am glad they did not. I still use audio jack connectors as much as possible, and I think that the world would be a slightly better place if we had universal AC power plugs.
- alwayslikethis 3y ago
  I agree with the importance of standards, but.. The Edison screw works quite badly for LED bulbs commonly used today. The electronics are all buried in the base part, which has very limited cooling, so they get extra hot and kills the lightbulbs prematurely when the LEDs themselves last much longer. It is also not standardized w.r.t. voltages, power limits, etc, making it prone to user error. The European and British plugs both have noticeable advantages compared to the American one, in that it is much harder to get shocked by them or cause arcing. Also, a universal plug would be much more helpful in a world with the same electric power systems everywhere, which is not the case.
  - taeric 3y ago
    Though, it isn't the screw connector that makes led bulbs a bad fit. It is the AC power delivery. And, yes, hvdc is likely better, but only in recent times with modern equipment. And even then, probably more debatable than makes sense.
- rkagerer 3y ago
  But weren't those standards defacto? I share your penchant for the shape of a bulb socket and purposely bought a phone that still provides an audio jack... but afaik regulators never dictated those shapes.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    Maybe gas pump sizes at gas stations are a better example? I see pump dimensions in the law here but don't know if there was traditional regulation on fuel pumps being compatible. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/80.22 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/80.22
arlort 3y ago
> isn't there a concern Yes, there is, but there's a few things mitigating the concern IMO 1. The "locking in" is not universal, it mostly concerns portable devices and has exceptions for higher wattage requirements 2. USB-C is a very flexible format, at the moment I think Thunderbolt 4 is the maximum commercially and that can deliver 40Gbs and 240W 3. What's locked in is a minimum, you can have two different charging ports on any device as long as one of them is USB-C So as far as I can see you would incur into problems if you: 1. Want less than 100W of power 2. Need more than 40Gbs (I think thunderbolt 5 will bring this to 80?) 3. Don't care about compatibility with headphones, mice, keyboards, external hard drives etc which more and more are going to switch to usb-c 5. Can't physically put more than one charging port on the device 6. They can't afford to make the case for an exception from the commission This is certainly a possibility but I think it's a minor one, and personally it's worth it if it means I can bring less chargers around (it's less highlighted but for devices with certain capabilities this law also mandates compliance with power delivery standard) My approach to the whole thing is that I more or less see USB-C as a parallel to electrical sockets, we might be missing out on some theoretical improvements but I'll take that chance > means in 50 years the EU is still stuck The commission can adapt the law through implementing regulations and it can still be adapted or repealed through the standard process, I can see as realistic us in the EU missing out on some fancy new port for 2-3 years (which I grant would suck) but doubt it'd be more than that
PedroBatista 3y ago
When a better USB-C plug happens, the standards will get updated, instead of millions of people having to buy 10 versions of a damn plug NOW. It's not like the EU standardizes emergent and rapidly evolving things, it's a freaking plug and "stuck in the past" isn't exactly how I describe the EU.
- nforgerit 3y ago
  German speaking. While I see your point on unfair behavior of companies like Apple forcing customers to buy gazillions of adapters, I'm afraid the downsides of those regulations are being downplayed by the EU regulators in kind of an arrogant tone: - GDPR, e-privacy and such only led to us having to click away cookie banners. Someone should make a study how much of the GDP is wasted because of those micro-interactions maneuvering around dark ui patterns. Still, Big Tech is just collecting the data in different ways and the regulations will never be able to catch up. - Over time, we saw many smaller companies were put under pressure by some lawyers to also "obey the law". It massively incentivized legal uncertainty for many local companies. We will see the same pattern with generative AI and the obligation to make transparent where the data it's trained on is coming from. - We have lately seen regulations being misused by some governments to stop things they didn't like (see Italy's government and their take on ChatGPT). I am not so sure that regulating power plugs isn't just another iteration of stupidity of doing the opposite of what they claim.
- msie 3y ago
  No one is buying 10 versions of a damn plug. Only a gadget enthusiast who changes their phone type every year would see that problem. If you stick to Android there is one plug. If you stick to iPhone there is one plug.
  - walthamstow 3y ago
    If you only have an iPhone, there is one plug. If you have an iPhone and basically any other device like a MacBook, Sony headphones, Nintendo Switch, Sony PS5 controller, the list goes on and on, then you actually need two plugs.
mmarq 3y ago
In 50 years a new plug will be standardised and people will use that
crote 3y ago
The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from including both USB-C and another charging connector.
- christophilus 3y ago
  But if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies that may block its adoption and thus mean most of that work was money and time wasted. This kind of thing may tilt the risk / reward of research towards the riskier end of the spectrum. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing— just that it’s not without consequences.
  - viraptor 3y ago
    It's not the regulatory bodies deciding. It's the industry agreeing on when to move on. If they co-operate and design the new version in the open, there's no risk of wasted time. If they don't... it's a good lesson I guess.
    - revelio 3y ago
      Of course it's the regulatory bodies deciding. What do you think they're doing right now, what this article is about? There is no mechanism for "industry agreeing" that the rule should be discarded.
      - viraptor 3y ago
        If only there was a specific document which talks about the consolations with industry experts to ensure future developments update the requirements... (There may be a more recent version of that doc available) https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755/attachments/3/translations/en/renditions/native https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755/attachments/3/...
croes 3y ago
Because you can't have different ports on a smartphone? You aren't forced to use only USB-C but to provide at least USB-C without artificial disadvantages. Without those standards the users are stuck or need to rebuy all accessories.
- detourdog 3y ago
  The lightning cable has whatever you want on the other end. The only thing needed is a cable. I only want 1 port on my phone. I don't really care what that port is. I'm very uncomfortable with government mandated ports.
  - tankenmate 3y ago
    Using the lightning cable has more onerous standardisation and compliance requirements (not all of which are purely technical requirements) than USB. This is one of the reasons that there is less availability of lightning port accessories.
    - detourdog 3y ago
      Please elaborate. Whatever onerous issues I have with a lightening port pale in comparison to the usability of any USB port of comparable size. I understand standards and think many are great.
      - tankenmate 3y ago
        It's called the "Made for iPhone" program; if your device doesn't comply and you don't pay Apple then your lightning port cable / device is limited in the power it can draw / supply (1A @ 5v I think), and data speeds (480Mbps from memory). It has a yearly fee as well as a per connector fee (so pass through cables attract double that cost); it used to be USD4 per connector but that was nearly 10 year ago so it's probably higher these days.
        detourdog 3y ago
rkagerer 3y ago
I think it's a fair concern. I'm glad the EU is unafraid to hold Apple and other incumbents to account, but I'm not convinced the particular issue of mandating charging ports is one I'd want my government wading into. I'd rather see that focus put into eg. protecting privacy.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
bluGill 3y ago
It is.time to be done. All thus 'innovation' around connectors means innovation around things using the.connectors is more expensive. What is not being developed because there is no standard and thus you couldn't connect your new gadget and still sell it for a.reasonable price.
worrycue 3y ago
The thought of a government picking winners and losers in the market place doesn’t sit well for me - not to mention the potential for corruption.
krzyk 3y ago
Apple is anything but "rapid iteration", they are stuck with lightning for years, market moved, Apple stayed.
lelanthran 3y ago
> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. The regulations take this into account.
oittaa 3y ago
Why this question appears every time with this topic? It has already been answered at least one thousand times. Are these just trumpists jaqing off[0]? [0]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/JAQ_off https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/JAQ_off
yrro 3y ago
> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug We've already been through this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
trailingComma 3y ago
If an advancement in plug capabilities is enough of a value-add for users, then the mobile will have both.
leodriesch 3y ago
This will probably also kill any R&D in that space, because why would you invest in searching for a better charging port only to have it denied by the EU.
anigbrowl 3y ago
The same thing that happens when you need a better electrical outlet; it gets offered in an industrial context and if it's really good then consumer demand will drive its adoption. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some Please don't post like this. It's not a new or original insight and you're moving the discussion toward emotionalism rather than facts.
Beldin 3y ago
> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug Probably something similar to what happened when the EU mandated mini-USB B for phones and USB-C was rolled out. Just in case: every phone used to have its own proprietary charging port. Typically (but not always) contemporary models of the same brand had the same port, but that was it. This led tp a ton of chargers - and e-waste, because 2 years later the charging port had, of course, changed. The EU came and legislated this nonsense out of existence - and good riddance to that! That was mini-usb-b. We've moved on to usb-c nowadays, and the EU is expanding the legislation to cover most chargeable items. Your worry is relevant, but the EU's track record in this particular field is absolutely stellar and more than sufficient to assuage me.
josephcsible 3y ago
Maybe instead of mandating USB-C, the EU should have said that you can use any connector you want, but whatever you use must be an entirely public domain open standard, with no proprietary extensions allowed whatsoever. Then Apple wouldn't have an incentive to use Lightning anymore, since the only way they'd be allowed to would be to give up its MFi gravy train.

by taf2 3y ago

epolanski 3y ago

The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. What EU wants to avoid is Apple giving "unfair" advantages to their own chargers (which could either come from Apple making better chargers or artificially slowing third party ones) defeating the purpose of having less electronic waste.

ewalk153 3y ago
Like you point out, the “unfair[ness]” of making better chargers faster than the EU standard can keep pace threatens to revert to least common denominator experience in the name of less waste.
- irdc 3y ago
  Not really: following public standards will never be seen as unfair. So a manufacturer merely implementing USB-PD 5.0, which allows for 2 megawatt via water-cooled copper, to fast-charge their devices is in the clear.
frankfrankfrank 3y ago
I’m all for some kind of universality, but this authoritarian method does not strike me as a good idea. You lament their concern with fairness, by giving unfair advantages to the USB-C license holders/patent holders? I’m not even sure people understand that Apple also contributed heavily to the development of USB-C along with other companies, some of them European. The irony is that I believe the Lightning Connector, the iPhone connector, has been the longest standing standard connector (11 years now) and the introduction of the Qi “wireless charging” is also a good argument against this narrow sighted EU authoritarian/communist mentality that some apparatchiks can make better decisions than those who actually do and create things. Has someone actually asked Apple to lay out its reasons for not adopting the larger and bulkier USB-C? Could it be that it has something to do with trying to engage in economic warfare against Apple because it’s harder to compete?
- vidarh 3y ago
  The EU tried the soft approach for many years, and Apple stubbornly refused to play. "This authoritarian method" of representing the populations they are meant to represent as part of a democratic society rather than letting companies continue to do what they want came with ample warning. EDIT: Someone asked about the mandate for it, and deleted, but worth pointing out that the EU parliament supported this with a majority of 602 to 13, so it has support literally from the far left to the far right.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - frankfrankfrank 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - tankenmate 3y ago
      Apple refused to implement mirco-USB when the EU issued guidelines to use USB because of electronic waste. Apple refused to even talk to the EU about it. So with Apple refusing to engage with the elected representatives of the EU then the EU got to the point of having to force Apple to engage; legislation. TLDR: The EU wanted less e-waste. Apple refused to engage, so the EU forced them to engage or leave.
      - frankfrankfrank 3y ago
        The problem is that the EU is illegitimate and a circus clown shoe of pencil necked bureaucratic authoritarians. I’m not even a fan of Apple look e for different reasons, but the very same reason Apple is likely not even engaging the EU clowns and their attempt at making Apple products worse with Micro USB (what a horrible design and technology because of it), it’s also the very same reason that the EU cannot ban Apple, because Apple is to god and the market leader in design and creating good products that people actually want. I can assure you that Apple’s lightning connector has caused there to be less waste than any other manufacturer. Case in point too; I just bought a temporary Nokia phone. And here it is, 2023, and they’re still using that horrible MicroUSB design plug that you have to look at every single time to make sure you get the plug in correctly. OUSD also discriminatory against the blind who have to feel they plug itself to figure out which way is up, whereas I can plug the lightning connector into any of the Apple devices in pitch black darkness because they go in the same every time.
rocketbop 3y ago
> The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces, because they aren't releasable in Europe. I suppose such products might get released first in the US, but which large tech company if going to ignore the EU market when releasing important products?
- Deukhoofd 3y ago
  They can propose it to the USB Implementers Forum, standardize it as a new USB standard, and pass it to the EU.
  - hartator 3y ago
    So, the EU is now in charge of deciding USB implementation?
    - Deukhoofd 3y ago
      No, the EU follows the industry standards. The industry standards for connectors are currently decided on by USB-IF, as almost the entire industry is a member of it. This means that when USB-IF releases a new standard, the EU will add it to the legislation.
- epolanski 3y ago
  > Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces Yes, that's the point. Instead of anyone releasing products with new power interfaces the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. I think it's reasonable and only a positive thing. If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    > the goal is to have industry-wide discussion on adopting new standards for everyone. That’s not part of the regulation whatsoever > If the industry will decide that USB-C isn't enough they will revise the standard. But the industry doesn’t come together and pick a standard. The EU did. The closest industries came to picking a standard were freely choosing from many different formats that emerged. Imagine what it would take for the executives at Apple, Samsung, Motorola, etc. to come together and all agree on some new format that perhaps one of them developed. Now consider that the EU would still have to approve it. The conclusion made from that Herculean effort might just be null and void. Also consider that this sounds a lot like is collusion. These companies would never get as far as sitting down with each other and are even less likely with this EU regulation. What’s worse is this all completely subjugates new players, who may be more likely to innovate and which can’t abuse any existing user base, to the current phone market. They would never have a seat at the table.
worrycue 3y ago
Who decides when we will update? If there are competing standards next round, who gets to decide which one? The very corruptible EU?

hardware2win 3y ago

This has been discussed like bilion times in threads like this The concept was iirc that industry will be reevaluating what needs to be standard

mrtksn 3y ago

> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug EU laws are not like physics laws, you can change them. That's why so many people are employed in policy and law making. So if it happens that in the land of cable freedoms they come up with something much better, it would be adopted. At first, those electronics which can accommodate more than 1 type of charging plug will start getting this new plug alongside with USB-C and if there's actual demand for it they law will be changed to allow only that plug. I don't know how much if this is about environmental concerns, I'm under impression that EU is never happy about rent seeing companies and tries to standardise everything. That's probably why it's going after browsers and App stores: it expect company products to be picked for competitive reasons, not compatibility reasons. Another example is EUs enforcement of standardized EV charging plugs, arguably Tesla plugs can be better but overall it's better for everyone to be able to charge everywhere even if it was possible to have slightly better charging plugs on some stations. I imagine, the US citizens are confused by all this due to the nature of how EU and US function. With GDPR, the American audience was imagining that startups will go bankrupt when trying to comply with EU law and there were tantrums about some people abandoning their projects because they don't have resources to deal with EU regulations. Maybe it's because how lawsuit happy the US is, maybe it's because how the laws are enforced in US is different than most of EU - I don't know, but in general Europeans feel differently than Americans about the government involvement.

throwaway50606 3y ago
How do you know how to change the laws if nobody is allowed to try different things (thus innovate)? USB-C didn't come from nowhere, and it wasn't a given that it's better than MicroUSB - first the market tested it, then it became a standard. EU laws have worldwide effects, there's no land of cable freedom anymore.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  EU laws don't expand beyond EU. EU consist about 5% of the population, 95% can have whatever they like. Yes, there's Brussels effect but that effect work when the trouble of designing or producing something else is not worth it. Also, you are not banned from engineering other solutions. The police isn't going to knock on the doors of engineers who are suspected to develop better charging cables :)

nickpp 3y ago

If the new plug comes from a big company (like Apple) then maybe they have the time, money and lawyers to push it through the bureaucratic layers a couple of years until maybe it gets approved. However, there is very little chance for that to happen now, considering most of innovation comes from small startups who don't have the resources or disposition to research something that is illegal to put on the market. So we are stuck with USB-C and committee-driven "innovation" for the foreseeable future. Hopefully Apple will not adopt this forced mandate on other markets and maybe they can innovate there and back port the improvements to the EU. Most of tech innovation currently happens in the US anyway. We'll see, but I am not optimistic. Large companies always benefit from regulations since they have the resources to comply while denying a possible differentiator for small companies.

crote 3y ago
> most of innovation comes from small startups Right, just like how USB-C was invented by small startups like AMD, Intel, Apple, and Google. Before standardization the only "innovation" we were seeing was how many obscure connector shapes people could come up, all using the same voltages and currents. > something that is illegal to put on the market It is not. You can 100% put something on the market which has both your MagicConnector 3000 and USB-C.

NikolaNovak 3y ago

I think it's relevant, but I feel there's a good precedent already - didn't europe previously mandate Micro-USB, since like 2010?

dahfizz 3y ago
No, this is a common misunderstanding. The EU previously issued a Memorandum of Understanding, which basically just asked phone manufacturer nicely to please use USB micro-B. There was no mandate or enforcement (obviously, because Apple never released a phone with micro-B). The USB-C law is an actual law which can't be ignored. The law will need to be updated when USB-D comes out.
- detourdog 3y ago
  It would have been ridiculous to drop lightening for micro-b. The whole e-waste argument I found lacking. I hope Apple makes a Freedom phone if the EU interferes too much with progress.
- crote 3y ago
  If I recall correctly, the Memorandum of Understanding was basically "please come up with an industry-standard connector", not "use micro-B".
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    Clearly they figured out that a friendly note wasn’t good enough.

stephc_int13 3y ago

Standards are good for everyone, even when very old and seemingly outdated. Being "locked" on a a few not awful standard connectors is a good thing. The Edison screw bulb is very simple, reliable, still used today even if I am sure that many companies would have invented more sophisticated standards over the years, I am glad they did not. I still use audio jack connectors as much as possible, and I think that the world would be a slightly better place if we had universal AC power plugs.

alwayslikethis 3y ago
I agree with the importance of standards, but.. The Edison screw works quite badly for LED bulbs commonly used today. The electronics are all buried in the base part, which has very limited cooling, so they get extra hot and kills the lightbulbs prematurely when the LEDs themselves last much longer. It is also not standardized w.r.t. voltages, power limits, etc, making it prone to user error. The European and British plugs both have noticeable advantages compared to the American one, in that it is much harder to get shocked by them or cause arcing. Also, a universal plug would be much more helpful in a world with the same electric power systems everywhere, which is not the case.
- taeric 3y ago
  Though, it isn't the screw connector that makes led bulbs a bad fit. It is the AC power delivery. And, yes, hvdc is likely better, but only in recent times with modern equipment. And even then, probably more debatable than makes sense.
rkagerer 3y ago
But weren't those standards defacto? I share your penchant for the shape of a bulb socket and purposely bought a phone that still provides an audio jack... but afaik regulators never dictated those shapes.
- belltaco 3y ago
  Maybe gas pump sizes at gas stations are a better example? I see pump dimensions in the law here but don't know if there was traditional regulation on fuel pumps being compatible. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/80.22 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/40/80.22

arlort 3y ago

> isn't there a concern Yes, there is, but there's a few things mitigating the concern IMO 1. The "locking in" is not universal, it mostly concerns portable devices and has exceptions for higher wattage requirements 2. USB-C is a very flexible format, at the moment I think Thunderbolt 4 is the maximum commercially and that can deliver 40Gbs and 240W 3. What's locked in is a minimum, you can have two different charging ports on any device as long as one of them is USB-C So as far as I can see you would incur into problems if you: 1. Want less than 100W of power 2. Need more than 40Gbs (I think thunderbolt 5 will bring this to 80?) 3. Don't care about compatibility with headphones, mice, keyboards, external hard drives etc which more and more are going to switch to usb-c 5. Can't physically put more than one charging port on the device 6. They can't afford to make the case for an exception from the commission This is certainly a possibility but I think it's a minor one, and personally it's worth it if it means I can bring less chargers around (it's less highlighted but for devices with certain capabilities this law also mandates compliance with power delivery standard) My approach to the whole thing is that I more or less see USB-C as a parallel to electrical sockets, we might be missing out on some theoretical improvements but I'll take that chance > means in 50 years the EU is still stuck The commission can adapt the law through implementing regulations and it can still be adapted or repealed through the standard process, I can see as realistic us in the EU missing out on some fancy new port for 2-3 years (which I grant would suck) but doubt it'd be more than that

PedroBatista 3y ago

When a better USB-C plug happens, the standards will get updated, instead of millions of people having to buy 10 versions of a damn plug NOW. It's not like the EU standardizes emergent and rapidly evolving things, it's a freaking plug and "stuck in the past" isn't exactly how I describe the EU.

nforgerit 3y ago
German speaking. While I see your point on unfair behavior of companies like Apple forcing customers to buy gazillions of adapters, I'm afraid the downsides of those regulations are being downplayed by the EU regulators in kind of an arrogant tone: - GDPR, e-privacy and such only led to us having to click away cookie banners. Someone should make a study how much of the GDP is wasted because of those micro-interactions maneuvering around dark ui patterns. Still, Big Tech is just collecting the data in different ways and the regulations will never be able to catch up. - Over time, we saw many smaller companies were put under pressure by some lawyers to also "obey the law". It massively incentivized legal uncertainty for many local companies. We will see the same pattern with generative AI and the obligation to make transparent where the data it's trained on is coming from. - We have lately seen regulations being misused by some governments to stop things they didn't like (see Italy's government and their take on ChatGPT). I am not so sure that regulating power plugs isn't just another iteration of stupidity of doing the opposite of what they claim.
msie 3y ago
No one is buying 10 versions of a damn plug. Only a gadget enthusiast who changes their phone type every year would see that problem. If you stick to Android there is one plug. If you stick to iPhone there is one plug.
- walthamstow 3y ago
  If you only have an iPhone, there is one plug. If you have an iPhone and basically any other device like a MacBook, Sony headphones, Nintendo Switch, Sony PS5 controller, the list goes on and on, then you actually need two plugs.

mmarq 3y ago

In 50 years a new plug will be standardised and people will use that

crote 3y ago

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from including both USB-C and another charging connector.

christophilus 3y ago
But if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies that may block its adoption and thus mean most of that work was money and time wasted. This kind of thing may tilt the risk / reward of research towards the riskier end of the spectrum. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing— just that it’s not without consequences.
- viraptor 3y ago
  It's not the regulatory bodies deciding. It's the industry agreeing on when to move on. If they co-operate and design the new version in the open, there's no risk of wasted time. If they don't... it's a good lesson I guess.
  - revelio 3y ago
    Of course it's the regulatory bodies deciding. What do you think they're doing right now, what this article is about? There is no mechanism for "industry agreeing" that the rule should be discarded.
    - viraptor 3y ago
      If only there was a specific document which talks about the consolations with industry experts to ensure future developments update the requirements... (There may be a more recent version of that doc available) https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755/attachments/3/translations/en/renditions/native https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/46755/attachments/3/...

croes 3y ago

Because you can't have different ports on a smartphone? You aren't forced to use only USB-C but to provide at least USB-C without artificial disadvantages. Without those standards the users are stuck or need to rebuy all accessories.

detourdog 3y ago
The lightning cable has whatever you want on the other end. The only thing needed is a cable. I only want 1 port on my phone. I don't really care what that port is. I'm very uncomfortable with government mandated ports.
- tankenmate 3y ago
  Using the lightning cable has more onerous standardisation and compliance requirements (not all of which are purely technical requirements) than USB. This is one of the reasons that there is less availability of lightning port accessories.
  - detourdog 3y ago
    Please elaborate. Whatever onerous issues I have with a lightening port pale in comparison to the usability of any USB port of comparable size. I understand standards and think many are great.
    - tankenmate 3y ago
      It's called the "Made for iPhone" program; if your device doesn't comply and you don't pay Apple then your lightning port cable / device is limited in the power it can draw / supply (1A @ 5v I think), and data speeds (480Mbps from memory). It has a yearly fee as well as a per connector fee (so pass through cables attract double that cost); it used to be USD4 per connector but that was nearly 10 year ago so it's probably higher these days.
      - detourdog 3y ago

rkagerer 3y ago

I think it's a fair concern. I'm glad the EU is unafraid to hold Apple and other incumbents to account, but I'm not convinced the particular issue of mandating charging ports is one I'd want my government wading into. I'd rather see that focus put into eg. protecting privacy.

deleted 3y ago

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bluGill 3y ago

It is.time to be done. All thus 'innovation' around connectors means innovation around things using the.connectors is more expensive. What is not being developed because there is no standard and thus you couldn't connect your new gadget and still sell it for a.reasonable price.

worrycue 3y ago

The thought of a government picking winners and losers in the market place doesn’t sit well for me - not to mention the potential for corruption.

krzyk 3y ago

Apple is anything but "rapid iteration", they are stuck with lightning for years, market moved, Apple stayed.

lelanthran 3y ago

> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. The regulations take this into account.

oittaa 3y ago

Why this question appears every time with this topic? It has already been answered at least one thousand times. Are these just trumpists jaqing off[0]? [0]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/JAQ_off https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/JAQ_off

yrro 3y ago

> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug We've already been through this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

trailingComma 3y ago

If an advancement in plug capabilities is enough of a value-add for users, then the mobile will have both.

leodriesch 3y ago

This will probably also kill any R&D in that space, because why would you invest in searching for a better charging port only to have it denied by the EU.

anigbrowl 3y ago

The same thing that happens when you need a better electrical outlet; it gets offered in an industrial context and if it's really good then consumer demand will drive its adoption. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some Please don't post like this. It's not a new or original insight and you're moving the discussion toward emotionalism rather than facts.

Beldin 3y ago

> What happens when there is a better USB-C plug Probably something similar to what happened when the EU mandated mini-USB B for phones and USB-C was rolled out. Just in case: every phone used to have its own proprietary charging port. Typically (but not always) contemporary models of the same brand had the same port, but that was it. This led tp a ton of chargers - and e-waste, because 2 years later the charging port had, of course, changed. The EU came and legislated this nonsense out of existence - and good riddance to that! That was mini-usb-b. We've moved on to usb-c nowadays, and the EU is expanding the legislation to cover most chargeable items. Your worry is relevant, but the EU's track record in this particular field is absolutely stellar and more than sufficient to assuage me.

josephcsible 3y ago

Maybe instead of mandating USB-C, the EU should have said that you can use any connector you want, but whatever you use must be an entirely public domain open standard, with no proprietary extensions allowed whatsoever. Then Apple wouldn't have an incentive to use Lightning anymore, since the only way they'd be allowed to would be to give up its MFi gravy train.