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Ask Wirecutter: Can you recommend a not-smart TV for me?
- UberFly 4y agoJust curious... Does Samsung, for example, get a kickback from Netflix -or whomever- when someone uses their device to order a subscription?
- bkfh 4y agoWhen my TV is not in use, I just completely disconnect it from power with a simple switch. Saves power as well
- ornornor 4y agoTo be fair, the minuscule amount appliances use while in sleep mode is a rounding error. At 0.15/kWh and 5W on standby, it costs a whopping 0.54/month assuming it’s on standby 24h a day for 30 days (ie you never watch it)
- ed25519FUUU 4y agoThe approach I’ve taken is to just keep my TV off the internet (never join a WiFi network) and make it smart via an Apple TV, which I personally believe to have the strongest privacy protection of any smart TV device. Another bonus is my TV UI hasn’t changed despite changing and upgrading TV brands.
- was_a_dev 4y agoHasn't some models (thinking Samsung) been shown to connect to any WiFi network they can? edit: Appears to be an urban legend, with not much substance to back it up!
- codetrotter 4y agoSure but if everyone has WPA2 encryption enabled on their network, such as is the case in my neighbourhood, then there is no network for the TV to connect to anyways.
- midasuni 4y agoAmazon whisper net etc from ring doorbells and other privacy violating things come to mind as possible connections. Mostly theoretical though.
- prmoustache 4y agoCouldn't a device looking for wifi just connect wherever you or your neighbours hit the wps button on their wifi router?
- codetrotter 4y agoDon’t know. I never use the WPS button, nor have I ever seen anyone else use it either. But I think you are right this could potentially let the device connect itself :(
- KerrAvon 4y agoBut that would require an accessible WiFi network. I'm sure someday it'll be impossible because they'll embed 5G chips and do it over cell without involving your consent, but that day isn't here yet.
- ghayes 4y agoSimple, just put it in a Faraday cage.
- modriano 4y agoThe mesh would have to be so fine that you wouldn't be able to see the screen (unless you were inside the "cage").
- lancesells 4y agoSimple, go wired and encase the house in a faraday cage.
- Macha 4y agoNo, this appears to be a HN urban legend. It's always asked in these threads and the closest thing that anyone has been able to provide is one person asking one time on the samsung forums why there tv was connected to the neighbour's wifi (openly in the TV's own menu). So either there's a giant conspiracy which literally nobody else in the world has noticed or attempted to reproduce, or her kids/neighbour/whoever just connected it to the first network that'd work.
- was_a_dev 4y agoFair enough - I think it is most likely something I read via HN
- Lammy 4y agoIt's possible, and that's all that matters IMO
- fshbbdssbbgdd 4y agoIf “possible” is all that matters then you have to include stuff like “I’m on a special list where if I order a monitor from Amazon, they’ll send me a version with a secret chip on the inside of the case that broadcasts my secret TV viewing habits to the NSA.”
- lostlogin 4y agoIt’s too hard on the Unifi line, but Ubiquiti Edgerouters allow some neat rules. Eg if on port 53 and not coming from the Pihole, send back to Pihole. The Samsung was very chatty, but didn’t connect to an unsecured wifi network I had setup for testing. It’s gone now and an equally chatty Sony is in its place - with not network access.
- lelandfe 4y agoI looked into this last year and couldn’t find much. I found a few forum posts of people claiming their TV connected to a public WiFi but none of them seemed particularly reputable.
- lr1970 4y agoThere is Amazon SideWalk [0] that could potentially allow devices join mesh WiFi behind your back. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/ https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/
- freedomben 4y agoYep, make no mistake this is absolutely going to happen.
- nickthenerd 4y agoYes. I was looking for this comment before saying the same. This is the biggest selling point of Sidewalk to appliance/product companies. All the usage data, ad data, analytics, even remote control of devices can now happen even if your devices are completely disconnected from your home WiFi. If your neighbor has an Amazon Echo... now its basically connected to the internet. Even if you don't have neighbors, there could be a LoRa gateway a mile away on a cell tower, and its now connected.
- nmeagent 4y agoWell, we still have physical access at least. Let's see these weasel devices try to connect without a functioning antenna.
- rootusrootus 4y agoThe existence of Sidewalk is what prompted me to remove all Amazon devices from my home. I hope the range on that network is less than the distance to my neighbors house (but they're old folks, definitely don't have an Echo).
- iijj 4y agoI have a 3 month old Samsung TV with recent firmware. I am trying to use it as a dumb offline TV connected to an Apple TV (which is, of course, online). Short version is it does not automatically connect to networks without user input, but it prompts people all the time and inevitably ended up back on the network. It won't forget network passwords without a full reset. So if you connect to download firmware then disable the connection, it is one click away from someone re-enabling it. If there's an unsecured network available, you're only 2-3 clicks away from joining that. With other people in the house using it, the only way to reliably keep it off the internet is to connect it to a network, allow it to verify the connection works, then block it from making any more outgoing connections at the router level. It seems to be ok with this situation and doesn't complain too much. My original plan was to setup HDMI CEC and lock away the Samsung Remote to prevent people from getting into trouble. But when the TV is turned on vi HDMI CEC, half the time it wants to immediately run the OLED refresh cycle, and will automatically shut off and start doing that unless you actively prevent it from doing so with the remote. This is annoying because they have a setting to run the OLED refresh at night when not in use. It's almost like they sabotaged this use case on purpose to force people to interact with the Samsung UI. I should have bought a projector, assuming one can still get projectors that aren't similarly infected.
- freedomben 4y agoMy Samsung tries to be smart too and ends up wrecking everything. I have a Steam Deck and a Linux laptop that I want to connect via HDMI, but the TV tries to do some sort of detection thing but doesn't wait long enough and does some sort of power cycle on it. The net result is that the laptop will switch from HDMI on to HDMI off and back every few seconds, and the TV will never connect. It's aggravating because it's such a stupid simple bug, but I have zero control over the TV.
- exmicrosoldier 4y agoMy Sony smart tv was great for 3 years because I never connected it to the internet, but ever since I did, it hangs, takes 2 minutes to allow switching inputs, and in general just sucks. I will not make the mistake of ever connecting one of these to the internet again, and if I have to buy a Giant monitor for 2k, so be it. I'm 90% sure that the flash drive on the TV wore out and they want me to replace what is otherwise great working hardware for features I don't even want anymore.
- KerrAvon 4y agoYes, this. I bought an LG OLED C2 recently, plugged in an Apple TV, have not connected the TV itself to the internet. Works absolutely fine; bonus is that the apparently annoying voice control option is disabled. You don't need firmware updates unless there's a specific bug that you need fixed, and you can update by USB stick if you do need a fix.
- slig 4y agoBought one recently as well. I connected mine because it's easier for everyone in the house, but I used a trick to hide most of the crapware: change the country to "Other" [1] [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/LGOLED/comments/vhbqru/remove_trending_bar_and_ads_on_the_home_no_root/idqtcx7/ https://old.reddit.com/r/LGOLED/comments/vhbqru/remove_trend...
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y agoYep. Extra bonus for LG since it uses webOS ( and that thing is great ). If you are concerned about TV connecting to something it shouldn't, you can setup a honeypot ( I think Unify still supports that ) and see what it tries to do. I never connected mine and didn't notice any attempts ( but it is an older OLED model ).
- benreic 4y agoI also got a C2 and briefly connected it via WiFi before I had the Apple TV. After hooking up the Apple TV I turned WiFi and thought I was all set, but it keeps turning WiFi on by itself and checking for updates which is really annoying. Might do a factory reset to clear out the WiFi password.
- philsnow 4y agoChange your wifi password, give the new password to your TV and make sure it connects, then change the wifi password (either to another new password or to the old one) and don't give the new new password to the TV. They generally don't remember and try previous passwords.
- jeremy_wiebe 4y ago
- kube-system 4y ago> Another bonus is my TV UI hasn’t changed despite changing and upgrading TV brands. One of the recent updates to my TV's software introduced bugs to a feature I use a lot. It is very infuriating, and it's one of the reasons I refuse to buy an expensive TV. Even if the hardware is good, I'm one software update away from a piece of garbage.
- MrMember 4y agoAn "update" to my TV made it so if it's on an input channel with no detected input for 10 seconds it will automatically switch back to the "smart" TV channel. Now if for some reason an input source isn't working correctly and I'm trying to figure out why I have to keep switching back to the correct input channel. Which of course lags for like ten seconds whenever it switches. I'm never buying another "smart" TV.
- freedomben 4y agoHeh, this happened to me with my Samsung TV. Never again.
- datadeft 4y agoIf your tv is not going to an open AP mode it is sufficient. Some smart devices had open APs or weak security and it was possible to exploit it.
- m463 4y agomy lg soundbar creates an access point to talk to the subwoofer, it is annoying. I wish I could just run an optical digital cable or something.
- colordrops 4y agoSynology or Kodi is going to be better than Apple TV for privacy, but usability takes a hit.
- dc3k 4y agoI did this with my A80J last year. During initial setup there is the option to disable all of the smart TV features. It's quite nice. Firmware updates can also be applied via USB stick, so it never needs to connect.
- lfkdev 4y agoI think a Pi4 with Kodi etc. is still way better for privacy.
- snapetom 4y agoAgree with this. If Apple ever really turns to the Dark Side, many here would be screwed.
- toastal 4y agoApple is already an advertising business
- gpanders 4y agoProbably true, but the Pi4 is not up to the task of transcoding 4k video.
- deadbunny 4y agoWhy would the Pi need to transcode video it's outputting to the TV?
- jjoonathan 4y agoMy TCL TV bootloops if it goes more than 3 months without downloading fresh ads. If you contact support, they walk you through connecting to the network.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y agoCan't connect to network. I don't have internet. Sorry. Returning TV back because it does not work.
- carlivar 4y agoThis reminds me of my friend in the 2000's that would say "I don't have email" when stores asked for his email address. Even at the time, quite unusual unless you were over 70 years old.
- jjoonathan 4y ago"Sorry, out of warranty."
- dwighttk 4y agohuh, my TCL is fine disconnected... The only irritating this as a flashing light around the power-button/ir-reciever that comes on when it can't connect to a network, but I've stopped noticing it.
- 4y ago
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y agoEthernet was added to HDMI https://thehometheaterdiy.com/hdmi-with-ethernet/ https://thehometheaterdiy.com/hdmi-with-ethernet/
- flangola7 4y agoBut why. HDMI is a video transmission format.
- syntheticnature 4y agoTo reduce the number of cables, in theory, though as noted it's not really implemented.
- tedunangst 4y agoIt's a multimedia interface.
- BizarroLand 4y agoExactly. Thats what the MI in HDMI stands for.
- detaro 4y agoAnd is implemented absolutely nowhere.
- 4y ago
- johnea 4y ago"Or, buy 4K a monitor..." It's 1/4 the area, minus all features, AND the same price!? 8-/ It's a great option, for dell shareholders...
- emmelaich 4y agoI attempted to do this with a new TCL TV. And continue using Chromecast dongle. But the damn thing freezes. So I'm using the inbuilt Chromecast for now!
- cinntaile 4y agoWhy do you want a not-smart tv? I thought the point was to not have tracking, but you were using a Chromecast dongle and I would expect Google of all companies to keep track of what you watch at least? Is it the security risks that probably show up after the tv software stops updating?
- freedomben 4y agoI would guess Google's privacy stuff is still an order of magnitude better than the TV manufacturers. Google actually gives you a decent amount of control over your data. There are definitely better privacy options than a Chromecast, but I don't think it's fair to put Google in the same category as Vizio/Samsung/et al.
- emmelaich 4y ago1. The old Chromecast dongle is much faster than this new TCL TV. 2. Google already knows everything I do and I trust them more than TCL. Playing a stream from the dongle just freezes after 30s. I'm pretty sure it's the TCL hdmi implementation, because the dongle has been utterly flawless previously.
- emmelaich 4y agoHere's another thing that shits me about the TCL. It asks me to sign in when setting up for the first time. You can't skip it. I thought this was related to Google TV, but apparently not. I later found a way to log out of the TCL, and my Google stuff still worked fine. False and intrusive behaviour from TCL. Also! your average joe would think this is for the Google account and would probably put in their Google password. I found an option to use a link number instead. How many Google passwords have been exposed to TCL?
- than3 4y agoYou may want to get yourself an SDR kit and check that for yourself. They typically broadcast on 43-33 cm band, (700-900mhz), and 2.4/5 ghz. You'd also be wrong about Apple's privacy protection.
- ipqk 4y agoYou can't just say someone is wrong without explaining why.
- than3 4y ago[flagged]
- all2 4y agoYou're being a dick. If you didn't realize that, that's what is going on here. To follow up on GGP(?), if I was going to look into the Apple privacy protection stuff, where would I start? Are there search terms, or specific sites or individuals you can point me to?
- than3 4y ago> You're being a dick. I'm being mature, and there is an important distinction though not mutually exclusive. If OP wanted to know more they could ask, and they didn't so I was right in my initial assessment regardless of how others feel. I would start with google keywords: "apple telemetry -site:apple.com" are a good place to start. From memory some of the important highlights were in 2016, there was an issue with the fast-fail network code in macOS and other devices where applications would not launch locally. Apple was forced to briefly disclose the cause of the outage, which amounted to a telemetry server update, a check-in at each application launch and other actions was required and could allow apple to decide what you can and can't run in realtime without your knowledge; there were several news articles about it at the time. There is the more recent articles about client-side scanning, which they rolled back but they largely by default upload everything to their cloud and do it there. This is good for catching predators, bad if one of those hashes they match against (which are not unique, one hash matches many potential files, an inherent property of modular arithmetic) cause a false positive, or if those hashes match material that is not illegal, but seek to censor. They don't disclose what they match specifically so you'll never know, nor will you be able to dispute or correct any mistakes. There have been several blog posts by System Administrators about the AppleTV and other Apple devices probing/mapping their internal networks over the years, and sending data up to the cloud. Its largely been encrypted so we don't know what it is they are sending but its a lot according to netflow and wireshark. If one were to find out, and publish what they found, it would serve as proof of violating the DMCA. So it is unlikely this will ever come to light from anyone domestically in the US or its allied countries. SDR opens a whole new avenue to approach auditing Apple devices that broadcast that data over the em spectrum, its also important since anyone with an antenna can pick that information up. Additionally, they don't disclose how long or what specific information they do collect about you, who they share it with, and even when you tell them to not collect info, they still do it. The higher the amount, and time, that you store information, the more likely it is going to be stolen.
- kneebonian 4y agoI just plugged a desktop into my big ole TV and then get a wireless mouse and keyboard. Run Linux on that thing and I control all of it, bonus points is that everyone knows how to use it when they come over to my house.
- xattt 4y agoIf this is the way that new TVs will be used, Ethernet-over-HDMI will see a comeback from the dead like nobody’s business!
- whalesalad 4y agoThis is the pro gamer move. I have a new LG C2 OLED and I love it. It has no idea that the internet exists. I use an Apple TV as well.
- threeseed 4y agoI have an LG C2 OLED and had it connected to the internet. It spams me with in-screen notifications at least once a week with either Privacy Policy updates or advertising new apps or TV shows. Great TV but definitely need to leave it unconnected.
- Zizizizz 4y agoIf you use nextdns or pihole you can block those. I do so the home screen has no top 2/3 of TV suggestions, just my installed apps at the bottom and the hi Def paintings from the gallery app showing above them.
- snerbles 4y agoEventually these devices will use DoH (DNS over HTTPS) to evade local ad and tracker blocking.
- foogazi 4y agoMy LG did that then I just blocked it on the wifi router
- retrac 4y ago> make it smart via an Apple TV I repurpose the old laptops that I seem to accumulate for this. Just about anything made in the last 10 years can handle at least 1080p video, and will have an HDMI output. I add a small wireless keyboard and use my regular desktop environment. But you can add a remote and use one of the open source media centre suites. I do wish more TVs had a monitor-like sleep mode and accepted the command for it over HDMI. And were actually low power when they sleep. That seems to be pretty spotty.
- MayeulC 4y agoGood idea for the laptop. You could use a smart plug (one that runs esphome, for instance, athom.tech sells pre-flashed ones) to wake the TV as well. And maybe the computer too.
- nofinator 4y agoWe do the same and it works well. We prefer a handheld keyboard/mouse to control it. We've tried several and the Lenovo N5902 [1] is our favorite by far. It's also useful to have the Unified Remote server [2] running on the media computer so you can control it from your phone when you need to. [1] https://www.newegg.com/p/09N-00A7-00001 https://www.newegg.com/p/09N-00A7-00001 [2] https://www.unifiedremote.com/ https://www.unifiedremote.com/
- NikolaNovak 4y agoThumbs up for the Lenovo keyboard/mouse combo. I preferred the trackball one, but the "trackpad"-y one works well too. It feels good in hand, it's nicely sized, fits easily in the drawer of nightstand table, and works well :). (not sure if it's discontinued btw; I struggled to find it in Canada last few years; but there are seemingly-identical unbranded alternatives usually available on amazon, e.g. https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08H8LH7GP/ https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08H8LH7GP/ )
- ipcress_file 4y agoI think they are discontinued. I needed another one for work a while back and ended up buying one of these (at $15, not the current price): https://www.amazon.ca/Computer-Accessories-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad/dp/B07WHCDH4B/ https://www.amazon.ca/Computer-Accessories-Wireless-Keyboard... It's actually relatively good, but not as good as the N5902.
- samgranieri 4y agothis 100%. When I had my TV installed I explicitly told the geeksquad guys who mounted it on the wall to not connect it to the internet because I'm driving it with an apple TV
- funkdified 4y agoThis is 100% the way. Did the same thing with my new Samsung. It's been a very clean experience.
- frereubu 4y agoI did the same with a projector and an old Mac Mini. Upgraded the internal hard drive to a small SSD and hung an 8TB spinning HD off the back with an attached Blu-Ray drive. Has the benefit that you can do things like rip / play Blu-Ray discs, choose to use Netflix / Amazon Prime / Apple TV / Eurosport / whatever you want. Only downside is that the Mac Mini is so old now (> 10 years) that it doesn't get OS updates. But I'm not sure I care about that too much as long as it works, because I have no personal data on it.
- stephenboyd 4y agoThat is also the advice given in the article. Unfortunately it follows that with "occasionally connect the TV to the internet for a minute to see if it needs any firmware updates" which is pointless if the TV is already working properly.
- Terretta 4y agoAnother way to "keep it off the Internet" without keeping it off the Internet is: Perflyst and Dandelion Sprout's Smart-TV Blocklist https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/master/SmartTV-AGH.txt https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/m...
- JasserInicide 4y agomake it smart via an Apple TV, which I personally believe to have the strongest privacy protection of any smart TV device. Except that as we saw with the CSAM debacle from a couple years ago, Apple will absolutely be scanning any device they have for anything they deem unsavory. I still can't believe people think Apple is a benign player in all of this
- macintux 4y agoOr perhaps you see what you want to see in that story. Apple and Google both scan images uploaded to their cloud for CSAM. Apple decided that they had the horsepower to do it on the device instead for only those images that would be uploaded to the cloud with the apparent intention of enabling end-to-end encryption for photos.
- artdigital 4y agoI use NextDNS/Adguard to cut out all the telemetry/tracking and have mine on a separate VLAN. I don't use the TV ui often, but this worked for the rare occasion
- kornhole 4y agoAny way you can disable the TV internet access is a good way to go. You can do it via your firewall or simply never give it the WIFI pwd. Kodi.TV on an ARM board is my preferred way to avoid Apple surveillance.
- ornornor 4y agoI’d argue libreelec/Kodi with servarr is the strongest privacy friendly solution as it leaks nothing at all to anyone at all and there is no algorithm to influence what you watch or don’t watch. It even can do YouTube in 1080p with sponsorblock (and no ads of course)
- lucasyvas 4y agoI think there are other options for commercial TV displays you see in stores as well. If memory serves, Jeff Geerling did a YouTube video on this.
- ab_testing 4y agoThe Spectre brand sold by Walmart has quite a few 4K dumb TV’s . I bought one a few years ago and connected my Apple TV and works fine.
- koolba 4y agoThe TVs are okay for picture but the audio is terrible. An inexpensive soundbar or speaker system goes a long way on those TVs.
- daveidol 4y agoHonestly I don’t want my TV speakers to even attempt to be good. It’s just added cost for a feature I will immediately disable anyway because my external speakers are always going to be better.
- giobox 4y agoThis is true of virtually all TVs today, regardless of price point.
- thefourthchime 4y agoI've gone through soundbars, full stereo equipment, etc... Call me a Apple fanboy, but my Airpod Max is amazing for watching movies with 5.1 or Dolby. That and I don't have to wake up the wife or kids.
- 23B1 4y agoYes all of my TVs are Sceptre (https://www.sceptre.com https://www.sceptre.com) and they're dumb and cheap.
- warmwaffles 4y agoI love mine. Dead simple display.
- slackfan 4y agoArticle does not give a single not-smart-tv option. The journalism quality is outstanding.
- itronitron 4y agoThe Betteridge's Law of Headlines strikes again.
- kgwxd 4y agoFor those that don't know, the law states "Any headline that ends in a question mark will contain a comment mentioning Betteridge's Law."
- Cyphase 4y agoThat's funny. What it actually states is this: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
- femiagbabiaka 4y agoBecause they claim the not-smart versions aren't worth it. They suggest alternative solutions, some of which commenters here have already echoed. Why the cynicism?
- slackfan 4y agoThe "aren't worth it" argument is entirely arbitrary and not backed up by a shred of evidence. Why defend bad journalism?
- nickthegreek 4y agoThen provide the reader with the name of the very best crappy one and what features it lacks. That at very least answer's the question that was posed. The writer mention bluetooth connectivity as something they want tv's to have. I consider that feature stupid and wouldnt consider that a negative.
- rahimnathwani 4y agoThis is discussed quite often on HN, e.g. lots of comments here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31706835 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31706835
- docflabby 4y agoIf only a small size (up to 32ish inches) needed 4k monitor would probably surfice
- patrakov 4y ago43" 4K monitors also exist. E.g., Gigabyte AORUS FV43U. I am using it right now. If you need OLED, use Gigabyte AORUS FO48U (48"). And here is a 55" quantum dot monitor: Gigabyte AORUS S55U.
- fideloper 4y agoFrom a (cynical?) content and affiliate point of view, I like the style of taking user questions (bonus points if H.B. is a real person) and answering it - rather than just a bland list of products by "expensive but good, less expensive but less good" that wirecutter is. This lets the authors also recommend extra tangential items ("get a projector!"). On another note, my trust in these types of things have gone down overall (every google search for "best yadda yadda" yields a list with affiliate links now, unless perhaps you append "reddit" to your search). Wirecutter still has some trust for me. Anyone else?
- KerrAvon 4y agoWeb search is useless, yes. Use Wirecutter, Consumer Reports, rtings.com, reddit, not necessarily in that order. You can't trust any one of these sources to have the same priorities as you do, but you can trust that they're giving you useful, original, non-link-farm-SEO-garbage information.
- anateus 4y agoI use rtings.com as base and triangulate with Consumer Reports and Wirecutter, and looks like I'm not the only one.
- adamwk 4y agoYeah I think Wirecutter and I sucked it up and signed up for a consumer reports subscription. Anecdotally I thought there was a period (maybe 2017?) where Wirecutter was becoming less trustworthy (maybe it was when I was looking for a mattress) but I feel like the quality has returned since then. I think I especially appreciate them for their more detailed sections below the summaries. Such as unlisted products and how they tested. Other than Wirecutter and consumer reports I feel all I have is sleuthing Reddit communities and even then it’s hard to tell if the users aren’t undercover salespeople
- spondylosaurus 4y agoWirecutter helped me find a brand of toilet paper that doesn't turn my bathroom into a dusty wasteland, so for that alone I'll always at least entertain their recommendations. Have yet to be led astray by any of their picks.
- CameronBanga 4y agoA couple years ago, I bought the domain "DumbTV.com" and considered looking to source my own television sets from China to sell at a premium with no added features besides HDMI ports. Should have followed through on that.
- jjensen 4y agoPlease do this.
- oh_sigh 4y agoYou could probably just link that to an amazon search result for "commercial TVs", which generally lack smart features and are mostly only designed for HDMI in
- nrp 4y agoIf you’re not planning to do it, we may be interested in that domain.
- OJFord 4y ago'We' being Framework? Did I miss some exciting news, or hear it here first?
- fernandogrd 4y agoYou heard here first, but they wrote about dumb tvs a while ago: https://frame.work/blog/in-defense-of-dumb-tvs https://frame.work/blog/in-defense-of-dumb-tvs
- CameronBanga 4y agoUnfortunately, it looks like I am misremembering. I never had the .com, but had the .io, .app, and a couple others. The one I did get and keep was DumbTV.org, as I thought that it may be more valuable to promote a basic sense of principals that made a TV a "DumbTV", and promote that as well as work to promote brands who were consumer friendly. I would discuss giving up that domain if it would be of interest. My email is my username at gmail dot com.
- endisneigh 4y agoidk why people are against Smart TVs. It's not like the vendors put a 5G modem on it and pay for the ads to be served to you themselves with their own internet. buy your tv, don't connect to wifi. connect to your device of choice, done. trying to avoid smart tvs is so silly, as you basically exclude nearly all of the good ones.
- ultrarunner 4y agoI use them for information displays. Our "smart" TVs boot slowly, show dialogs, and then complain that they can't sense the remote near enough to them, requiring a reboot. All in all it's an incredibly frustrating experience for something that should require zero interaction.
- endisneigh 4y agohow often are you rebooting TVs for your information displays that this matters? and there are smart tvs with dumb remotes.
- mtrower 4y agoSo, you say you don’t know why people are upset with these devices, but people are telling you why and you’re just not accepting it. You literally told the other guy that he’s optimizing for the wrong thing, as if his priorities are somehow yours to determine. It’s totally fine that you have different priorities and values than us, but that doesn’t invalidate ours.
- endisneigh 4y agoI don't understand because the implication is that you'd use an external device, which would then have the same issues as the TV, no?
- beefee 4y agoHere are some reasons. 1. Cost. I'd rather not pay for hardware and software I won't use. 2. Environmental impact. Unused and unwanted hardware is waste. 3. Unauthorized users connecting to WiFi. TVs are often in common areas. The settings menus have no authentication. So an unauthorized user might connect the TV to a WiFi network. 4. Automatic WiFi connections. TVs might connect to open or partnered WiFi networks without telling the user. Hard to know without an audit. 5. Accidental WiFi connections. Settings menus might be unintuitive (or deceptive) enough to trick users into joining WiFi networks accidentally. 6. Future data leaks. TVs might be recording data and saving it to internal storage. The next owner of the TV could connect it to a network, and years of stored data would be leaked. Again, hard to know without an audit.
- itronitron 4y agoDigital projectors are usually 'not-smart' and some of the short throw projectors can be placed quite close to the screen or wall if space is an issue.
- TillE 4y agoFor the HN audience especially, a simple computer monitor seems like the obvious answer. Set it up however you like. Maybe it's a little more complicated if you still have cable or something, but unless you're watching live sports, there's not much value there.
- jblz 4y agoI'm pretty sure Cable boxes all have HDMI these days, so that shouldn't be an issue. Monitors won't have an over-the-air tuner, so, you'd need to use an external device to watch broadcast TV.
- rufus_foreman 4y agoYou don't need a cable box or a TV to watch cable TV anymore, you can stream it over it the internet. HMDI from a computer to a monitor or a projector would work fine.
- dehrmann 4y agoExcept most monitors are smaller than 40" and don't have speakers.
- porkbeer 4y agoIf you are using the built in speakers on any tv, you are losing the game. Additionally a few of my monitors have crappy speakers that turn up as a hdmi output device, often to my dismay.
- humps 4y agoAll smart TVs are dumb if you perform one simple action. When the terms and conditions screen pops up during the TV setup process simply select "No." Congratulations, you have a dumb TV. This is what I do and so far it has worked.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y agoYou are assuming that: 1. It will be honored 2. It will not be changed to default during update
- humps 4y agoyou can easily tell if anything has changed every time you turn the TV on, plus, I haven't hooked them up to the internet
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y agoSorry for the late response. Do you check every setting on your phone/tv/pc after you boot it up? It seems very impractical to me. As a user, I assume that unless I explicitly changed something, my setup remains the same. I used to be able to trust that manufacturers won't try anything too stupid, but at that time the cost in performance, gear and PR was sufficient and incentive to sell information on you was not as prevalent.
- mrpippy 4y agoI'd be more worried that the TV would just say "T&C acceptance is required to use this product, please return me to the store" and turn itself off
- paxys 4y agoTL;DR – buy any good TV and don't connect it to the internet. I bet the more tech-minded consumers can open it up and physically disconnect the wifi module pretty easily as well.
- lbotos 4y agoSearch: <brand name> digital information display Samsung 4k https://www.samsung.com/us/business/displays/4k-uhd/qb-series/qbb-n-series-65-lh65qbbnbgcxgo/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/displays/4k-uhd/qb-serie... It's more expensive then the subsidized ones, but right in the description: QB65B--N * Direct-Lit 4K Crystal UHD LED Display for Business Without Embedded Wi-Fi or Bluetooth As others have suggested as well, possibly a monitor, but I'm not aware of many 65" 4k monitors (But they may exist)
- ajmurmann 4y agoThis seems to be a great option. It seems much harder to get reviews and even buying options. Looking for an LG OLED, there seem to be some really cool things from regular screens, to flexible and transparent ones, but I need to "inquire for purchase options" and the regular screen only comes in 65". That's a good size, but more options would be great. It's sad how harder it is to buy something that doesn't spy on you...
- esperent 4y agoI've use a 48 inch LG OLED as a monitor for about two years now. It's set in PC mode and except for the occasional time I hit the wrong button on the remote, I completely forget it's a Smart TV. I did connect it to the wifi once to update the firmware. Note that it also took a lot of fiddling with I first got it to get a decent picture setup - although part of that was finding out that I needed a fancy HDMI cable to get 4k@120hz, and another part was figuring out that HDR isn't really viable for daily PC usage (turning on HDR makes the picture darker, because although the dynamic range has gone up, the max brightness of OLED is not that high so it has to make things dimmer for the dynamic range to be available. Plus Windows HDR management sucks). Oh and the gloss finish means it's not suitable for bright environments. But otherwise it's a beautiful screen and would be an awesome TV too with wifi turned off and connected to a TV dongle of some kind.
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- nrvn 4y ago
- adamwk 4y agoFor me it’s less about privacy (I just disconnect it from wifi) but just how slow they are. I bought an Apple TV to get around this but it still takes so long for it to even turn on
- YurgenJurgensen 4y agoMy TV remote has a dedicated Netflix button. I don't have a Netflix subscription and never will, but it wastes 30 seconds every time I accidentally push it because the UI is that slow and backing out of this nonfunctional Netflix app takes so many steps.
- karaterobot 4y ago> “Any TV worth buying is very likely going to ask to connect to your Wi-Fi, and that’s been the case for many years now,” he says. “If you can find one manufactured recently that isn’t smart, I don’t know that I would trust it to be worth what you’re paying for it, because it’ll likely be missing several other salient features that you may actually want, like Bluetooth compatibility, HDR functionality, built-in channel scanning, or the ability to auto-label and optimize devices by HDMI input.” TLDR: "Even though you're asking for a not-smart TV, we're denying the premise of your question: you don't actually want one after all. Here are a few smart TVs you might like." I have a 60" Sceptre dumb TV, it's the exact one that comes up in every single thread on this topic. It's 4K, it cost about $400-$450 whenever I bought it — 3 or 4 years ago — and it is great. It cannot connect to the internet, it doesn't know what a Netflix is, and it has all the ports I need.
- bscphil 4y ago> it’ll likely be missing several other salient features that you may actually want I disagree with you; the answer they give is pretty reasonable. Sceptre TVs are recommended everywhere you look if you search for dumb TVs, they're not hard to find. But people looking for a brand new TV often want common modern TV features, like HDR. Heck, I'm holding on to an old plasma set until I can get a decent OLED at a reasonable price. Hopefully where "smart" features are either absent or enthusiasts have worked out how to eliminate any privacy hazards. A $400 Sceptre is very much not what I am interested in. But I am interested in a dumb, privacy-friendly screen! It's not "denying the premise" of wanting a dumb TV to point out these limitations, as well as offer what is the most practical alternative for most people - just don't connect it to WiFi.
- topspin 4y ago> modern TV features, like HDR Many of the Sceptre 4K models have HDR. MEMC as well. Likely the $400 price point is blown at that point, but who buys 1080p and cares about HDR?
- karaterobot 4y ago> It's not "denying the premise" of wanting a dumb TV to point out these limitations, as well as offer what is the most practical alternative for most people - just don't connect it to WiFi. They denied the premise of the question. The question was "Can You Recommend a Not-Smart TV for Me?" and the answer wasn't just "no, there are none I can or will recommend", which would be one thing. Instead the answer was "I'm not going to answer that question, because you don't actually want the thing you said you want". Since some people want dumb TVs, and they do exist, it would have been possible for the author to recommend the best example of that product, whatever they felt about it personally, or whatever assumptions they had about what the questioner actually wanted.
- johnea 4y ago"Or, buy 4K a monitor..." It's 1/4 the area, minus all features, AND the same price!? 8-/ It's a great option, for dell shareholders...
- yumraj 4y agoBoth of the recommendations are Chinese brands, that doesn't inspire much confidence..
- lagrange77 4y agoSo called digital signage displays may be worth looking at. They also look cooler.
- dehrmann 4y agoAre there any open source TV firmware projects? In theory, I don't mind smart TV features, I just don't trust most companies with my data, and getting the interface right is hard.
- hosteur 4y agoRaspberry pi and Kodi or libreelec?
- suprjami 4y agoYou misunderstood the question. These are not operating systems which replace to TV's rubbish firmware.
- pabs3 4y agoVizio TVs run Linux, systemd etc. If Software Freedom Conservancy win their lawsuit against Vizio for GPL violations in their TVs, you will probably be able to install open source Linux distros with Kodi on any Vizio TV and soon afterwards lots of other smart TV vendors will be similar. Maybe there will also be an equivalent of OpenWRT for TVs, a distro focused on improving open source TV support. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
- htag 4y agoThis is interesting. Honestly if all it did was provide a simple OSD display for input selection or basic settings like color/contrast I'd flash my TV just to get rid of all the bloatware on it.
- jaclaz 4y agoThere used to be (still exist) projects like Samygo: https://www.samygo.tv/ https://www.samygo.tv/ and openlgtv: https://openlgtv.github.io/ https://openlgtv.github.io/ but AFAIK due to their complexity and the continuous changes/updates/releases by the TV manufacturers they tend to be outdated or however compatible only with relatively old models.
- than3 4y agoSceptre is the only brand that still makes non-smart TVs.
- TYPE_FASTER 4y agoIt's worth noting that TVs that run Google TV (which includes Sony Bravia) let you choose Basic TV or Google TV. https://support.google.com/googletv/answer/10408998?hl=en#zippy= https://support.google.com/googletv/answer/10408998?hl=en#zi... If you don't want to connect to the internet, you can select Basic TV at setup and get the equivalent of a dumb TV.
- captn3m0 4y agoThis only applies to new models, post 2021 I think. I’m considering getting one, and I am having to check which year- model combination has Basic TV support.
- EastSmith 4y agoNever buying a Sony device ever again. Got one 4,5 years back (3rd one for last 10 years). It had Google TV and I could not pass a screen and use the TV unless I agree a stupid EULA. Had to take it, because ... family, but they made me feel soo stupid. Pair this with a horrible PS support and Sony is banned for life for me.
- madjam002 4y agoSame but for different reasons, mine was an expensive TV with a single core processor and running Android TV, and it was incredibly slow. I remember connecting via adb and watching the volume indicator applet use 100% CPU when trying to change the volume from the remote control and only showing up 10 seconds after pressing the button.
- sys_64738 4y agoI know it's offtopic but I knew our leisure viewing was in trouble way back when the first Blu Ray DVD players had fans in them which came on loudly when watching movies.
- djaychela 4y agoSince getting pi-hole on my home network, I've been amazed at the amount of phoning home my old (7 years+) smart TVs are trying to do. All of the domains are about content matching, which I'm thinking is no longer happening since getting pi-hole as the domains are never bring resolved for them.
- nvr219 4y agoCheck this out: https://imgur.com/VJVmDd3 https://imgur.com/VJVmDd3 This is from 2 days when there was literally nobody using anything in the house because I was out of town.
- norgie 4y agoTo be fair, blocking can cause more requests than "normal" as they don't always use good back offs. My Nvidia Shield used to spam my DNS with 10s of thousands of requests a day like this after I blocked the domain, but they seem to have fixed it at some point.
- bombcar 4y agoI have a server that responds with a blank every access which satisfies some of them, but with HTTPS it’s harder to do.
- agilob 4y agoA reminder ha LG webOS can be exploited by visiting a website https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io
- robg 4y agoThe chart here shows the problem: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-or-century-8/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/chart-of-the-day-or-century-8... TVs have been so commoditized, if you were a TV manufacturer, how would you stay in business in the next thirty years?
- fzeindl 4y agoI use a Philips 43 inch PC monitor attached to an AppleTV. Works great, and has 100ms response. https://www.philips.at/c-p/BDM4350UC_00/brilliance-4k-ultra-hd-lcd-display https://www.philips.at/c-p/BDM4350UC_00/brilliance-4k-ultra-...
- KaiserPro 4y agoNEC multisync displays bright, designed to last for ages, built like a brick shithouse, plenty on ebay. They also come in huge sizes, for those that want such things.
- pupdogg 4y agoI've designed and built many such TVs for the commercial/industrial vertical. I am currently working on developing such a TV for the consumer market and launching it under the name DUMBO.TV Let me know your thoughts. Reference pix of 70" industrial display using Samsung LCD panel and in-house LCD controller with physical OSD menu buttons along with IR/RS232 control capability: https://imgur.com/a/k6zrH3s https://imgur.com/a/k6zrH3s
- lostlogin 4y agoIf you survive the lawsuit from Disney, I’m in. I’d prefer a much smaller tv (32-40”) but I’m weird like that. All I’d want is an input for an Apple TV and maybe 2 more hdmi plugs. Doesn’t even need a remote. Good luck.
- QIYGT 4y ago> input for an Apple TV and maybe 2 more hdmi plugs Add more input ports than you think anybody could ever want, and I'm in.
- pupdogg 4y agoWait, this Disney lawsuit thing is news to me. What's up with that? You're right, in the consumer market, there's a much higher demand for 32-40" display. Our UHD controller can easily handle that and comes with 5x total input ports [ 3x HDMI(V1.4a), 1x HDMI(V2.0), 1x DisplayPort(V1.2) ] and can run 3840x2160 or 4096x2160 resolutions @ 120Hz.
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- mgaunard 4y agoWhat a bad article. A TV without smart features is simply called a monitor. Monitors are also usually much higher quality than TVs.
- elAhmo 4y agoMonitor is a different device compared to a TV. TV without smart features is simply called a TV.
- mgaunard 4y agoThat is incorrect. A TV is simply a low-quality monitor, possibly with some kind of tuner or extra superfluous low-quality peripherals.
- jeffbee 4y ago"That is incorrect" wasn't much of a rebuttal. Computer displays usually look like shit for video content, because showing video content well is much more complicated than nerds seem to believe.
- cesarb 4y ago> A TV is simply a low-quality monitor, possibly with some kind of tuner The defining feature of a TV is the presence of a tuner. If it doesn't have a tuner for OTA (or cable) channels, it's not a TV.
- mgaunard 4y agoOver-the-air and cable broadcasts are a thing of the past. How is life back in the 90s?
- mtrower 4y agoThat is incorrect. A TV is a display panel optimized around a 10’ interactive distance. A computer monitor is a display panel generally targeting 2’-3’ at most.
- hilbert42 4y agoMy solution is dead simple and easy to implement. Use a large top line computer monitor and connect one or more dumb-type PVRs/Set Top Boxes to it. Moreover, this is usually a much more flexible arrangement than a TV (and one is never tempted to connect WiFi because it's just not available—nor is there any snoopy O/S to connect WiFi to). Problem solved! __ Edit: Dumb-type PVRs/STBs (the ones with no internal storage and only a USB socket to add your own drive) are dirt cheap ($30 - $50 at most) and are available just about everywhere. Moreover, they're very small and compact. Because of their convenience I'll take them anywhere (couple directly into my PC or laptop HDMI port, etc.). I have at least six operational and two are new and still in boxes (I almost consider them as disposable items—I just draw on a new one when and as necessary).
- dopeboy 4y agoMy parents bought a LG TV recently. The UI is just horrific. Which PM thought the real time cursor was a good idea? As much as you can, get an AppleTV and leave it on.
- TheBozzCL 4y agoThe worst part of the cursor is that it seems there's no way to disable it. At least I haven't found it.
- carom 4y agoI have Sceptre (recommended on HN) and love it. Just hook up an Apple TV and it is great. If you are an audio snob you'll want a sound bar, but for a cheap TV it does the job well.
- znpy 4y agoI bought a 42” full hd tv from the brand names “Ok” in 2021, at mediaworld/mediamarkt. It’s completely dumb but it’s got 2 hdmi inputs. I love it.
- vehemenz 4y agoAs others have said, it's probably easiest to resign yourself to reality. Buy a newer TV with a good panel, which will be a "smart" TV, and make sure to never connect it to the Internet. You can get a smart remote from there to overcome some of the quirks.
- tonymet 4y agothis is screaming for an open source tool and/or firmware to "dumb down" smart TVs. On Google TV it could apply app & service configuration settings to turn off networking, recommendations, home screen content and just enable the input-switcher . Since it is Android based, there are lots of tools using ADB, debug tools, device policy etc that could work.
- tonymet 4y agoThis is a big concern for the elderly. They have major challenges dealing with "smart" TVs and smart phones – due to complicated interfaces that are difficult to operate, hard to read, hard to interact with , slow to respond do. I see a huge business opportunity selling simplified consumer devices to the elderly. I'm surprised CES hasn't yet created a specific category or certification for elderly-friendly devices.
- jacobsenscott 4y agoThese products exist to some extent, but they don't seem very successful. The "elderly" today could be people who may have been using smartphones for 20 years, and wrote the foundational parts of all the software we use today. Soon enough you will be more likely to find someone who can debug a C program in a retirement community than an MIT classroom.
- tonymet 4y agothey'll suffer from the same visual, tactile and cognitive challenges that make "smart" devices difficult. I'm sure the audience here who hates smart TVs would also prefer more elegant and intuitive devices.
- jaclaz 4y agoIt is not only about understanding what the stupid TV asks for. My mom (94 this year) has an iPad since more than ten years (she uses it for basic things, news, e-mail, facebook) and a smartphone (again using it only for basic things, like, you know, making phone calls) and never had any (major) problems with them. Last december we had to change her TV (here in Italy they are switching to a new HD broadcasting standard that her - only a few years old BTW - set is not compatible with) and all suitable TV's I could find were "smart" (there are a few requisites like having an audio output - 3.5 mm jack - to connect her hearing aids repeaters). Even setting it with "no connection" (there isn't even the Wi-Fi at her house) and turning off all "smart" or "advanced" features, the stupid tv from time to time likes to randomly display a prompt for this or that action needed, but (due to relatively poor vision) she cannot read them unless she stands up and gets nearer. It is an inconvenience.
- natural219 4y agoI bought a Sceptre a few years ago for this reason. Best TV I’ve owned, no smart features, great price and picture quality.
- cat_plus_plus 4y agoLike one with physical nobs to adjust channel and volume? Ebay should be good. Want a remote control and on screen menus? That's a smart TV. The difference is that the price of embedded controller to run built in UI and live guide is no longer any lower than one needed to stream Hulu. Someone also needs to develop TV firmware and Android development is much cheaper than creating new embedded UI from scratch. And Hulu will pay for having a remote button / prominent placement on home screen / actual new user activation on the device. So overall, you are getting a discount for having ability to stream directly from TV, even if you never connect to WiFi. Enjoy!
- excalibur 4y ago> Want a remote control and on screen menus? That's a smart TV. This is factually incorrect. The defining feature of a Smart TV is internet connectivity. You wouldn't know it from the selection in your local Wal-Mart, but there are a great many TVs in the world, with flat panels and menus and everything, that lack the physical ability to connect to the internet. I have one hanging on my wall.
- cat_plus_plus 4y agoThere is no commercial advantage to skip $5 WiFi module and forego easy upgradability, app placement revenues and a segment of users who want Netflix out of the box. At least for consumer products, defense displays without radios are obviously important. But they are going to cost you.
- LaserDiscMan 4y agoThey're not cheap or large, but broadcast monitors can be an option here. Very expensive unless bought used though. Lots of lesser known manufacturers in the space, and some great deals can be found. The largest size most manufacturers will do is around 32 inches. CRT Broadcast monitors are somewhat of a collectors item for retro game enthusiasts.
- CivBase 4y ago> If you can find one manufactured recently that isn’t smart, I don’t know that I would trust it to be worth what you’re paying for it, because it’ll likely be missing several other salient features that you may actually want, like Bluetooth compatibility, HDR functionality, built-in channel scanning, or the ability to auto-label and optimize devices by HDMI input. I don't care about any of those features except for HDR, and I suspect that's the case for most others who would be interested in a dumb TV. That said, the easiest solution is really just to buy a smart TV and keep it off your network and connect a laptop or HTPC. But I've heard horror stories of newer TVs auto-connecting to whatever open network they can find and some even having LTE radios, so who knows how long that strategy will work.
- mongol 4y agoDropping traffic from the TV's MAC address in the firewall shodo the trick, no? Or perhaps it changes over time?
- that_courtney 4y agoThe spyware and apps are revenue features for the manufacturer. They help subsidize the price of the set. So get a TV with all that bloat for best value, and just keep the device off the net. If you do want to put it on the net, here's some help on disabling privacy-busting features: https://www.consumerreports.org/electronics/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features-a4840102036/#sony-t-vs https://www.consumerreports.org/electronics/privacy/how-to-t...
- httpz 4y agoCan someone tell me why this is a big problem? I just plug in a Chromecast with Google TV and I never have to touch the TV remote or see the TV's original Smart TV UI ever. Isn't this solvable by just plugging in a $50 streaming stick of your choice?
- suprjami 4y agoEven without wifi, these TVs are full of slow garbage operating system, and I wouldn't be surprised if some vendor is making a TV which you must connect to the internet to use.
- httpz 4y agoEven if the TV requires internet connection and the OS is garbage, once I set the input source to Chromecast, I never have to interact with the TV's OS.
- nilespotter 4y agoWell for one thing, many of them run content recognition software and report back what you're watching, regardless of whether it's through the "smart tv" software, apple tv, chromecast, etc.
- _cenw 4y agoMy TV is a projector (Benq TK700STi) and all its smart features are contained within a Google TV plugged into the back that ships with the device. You rip it out, you just get an extra HDMI port. The only problem I have is having to dim the lights / close the blinds to watch anything, but that makes using the TV a much more deliberate act and I found that to actually be a positive.
- BEEdwards 4y agoIf you don't connect it to the internet it's not a smart tv...
- NoraCodes 4y agoThis article misses the point. I desperately want a non-smart TV because I don't want to deal with the absolute mess that is smart TV software. I want to have a TV with a nice panel, a basic OSD that lets me switch inputs and set up color/HDR profiles, and that's it.
- cortesoft 4y agoMy main issue with smart TVs is how long they take to turn on. I just want it to turn on and off in under a second.
- capableweb 4y agoIs that really a problem that happens because a TV is "smart" or not? I'm using a LG 4K OLED TV, connected to the internet with a bunch of apps (so smart) and it's ready to be used in like 2-3 seconds after I power it on. Are other TVs really that much worse? I only have experience with LG ones, so I might just be lucky here.
- avh02 4y agostayed in an airbnb once where the TV would take ~15 seconds to be ready to control, of that time, about 5 seconds was already playing content but you couldn't control the volume. I don't remember the brand, but it wasn't some unknown thing.
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- andrewia 4y agoDid you actually read the article? They said their first two picks will boot to the most recent input without any UI to step through, which they consider acceptable. Combined with CEC input switching, I agree that the UI shouldn't be much of a concern. I use a TCL P607 disconnected from the internet, and the UI is not a concern because of CEC switching.
- aj7 4y agoWhy is it bad to have a TV connected to wi-fi or the internet? How is Apple TV a solution to that problem?
- TheBozzCL 4y agoSeveral reasons: 1. Planned obsolescence at the firmware/app level. Eventually, manufacturers and app maintainers stop supporting your TV. When that happens, you need to change the whole smart TV. Dumb TV + smart box means you can upgrade separately and at your leisure. 2. Privacy concerns. Smart TVs openly monitor your usage, which includes not only how you use the TV but also what you watch on it, and sell that data for marketing purposes. Often you need to agree to the tracking to get many of the connected features - for example, my TV demands that I accept data collection to use AirPlay. Locking features behind an EULA and tracking is crappy, IMO. TBH I don't know if Apple TVs are better, but I Pihole my whole home network anyway. 3. Bad UI and UX. Many smart TVs are a PAIN to navigate. Convoluted, inconsistent menus, menus hidden inside menus hidden inside menus, slow start-up speeds or even straight up slow UI. The added complexity doesn't really justify the extra features, IMO. Purpose-built smart boxes normally do a better job. And if you don't like the current UI, selling it and buying a new one is much more convenient that selling your TV and buying a new one.
- bombcar 4y agoBest Buy has "non smart" in the search options: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?_dyncharset=UTF-8&browsedCategory=abcat0101001&id=pcat17071&iht=n&ks=960&list=y&qp=televisiontype_facet%3DTelevision%20Type~Non%20Smart&sc=Global&st=categoryid%24abcat0101001&type=page&usc=All%20Categories https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?_dyncharset=UTF-... I've not dug into details if they are actually all non-smart TVs, but perhaps I should. Ability to cast to the damn thing easily from a phone is really nice, though.
- voidfunc 4y agoEvery Sony Bravia has the option to be setup as "dumb"
- mannyv 4y agoYou can look at the "Commercial TV" section on Best Buy's site. Westinghouse used to have basic TVs, but I see all their big ones are smart now.
- TheBozzCL 4y agoNo mention of smart TV's embedded planned obsolescence? If they stop updating the firmware, eventually the smart features and apps stop working as well.
- giantg2 4y ago"When you’re setting up your new TV, opting out is as simple as skipping the step that connects your TV to the internet." Is this actually true? I thought I've heard of some TVs connecting to any open network automatically if it was connected to a secure one.
- aidenn0 4y ago> “Any TV worth buying is very likely going to ask to connect to your Wi-Fi, and that’s been the case for many years now,” he says. “If you can find one manufactured recently that isn’t smart, I don’t know that I would trust it to be worth what you’re paying for it, because it’ll likely be missing several other salient features that you may actually want, like Bluetooth compatibility, HDR functionality, built-in channel scanning, or the ability to auto-label and optimize devices by HDMI input.” I literally need zero of these things: 1: BT, auto-labeling HDMI inputs: My receiver does these 2: built-in channel scanning: I live in a valley and can reliably pull in 0 channels 3: HDR functionality: This would be nice for future-proofing, but I don't own any HDR content.
- emodendroket 4y agoYou are obviously not the target audience for this article. They also are not going to put high-quality panels in any "dumb" TVs they do deign to manufacture.
- xp84 4y agoAgree on the last part. Some of these bells and whistles are silly, but the common thread in "dumb" TVs is basically that they will be using the cheesiest possible hardware across the board. Which is really saying something since they need to be worse than the entry-level Smart TVs -- which are already cost-reduced to a comical degree. Some of my other "favorite" things about the dumb TV i bought for the kids room: * Only a single button - you have to hold it down to turn it off, I think? Single press cycles inputs. * Stand made of two flimsy pieces of plastic at the sides so you need a super wide table for it. On the other hand, at least it doesn't need to "boot up." :D
- mastazi 4y agoMany digital signage TVs have high quality panels and they are dumb TVs.
- aidenn0 4y ago> You are obviously not the target audience for this article That's a bit of a cop-out. If someone else wrote a letter into the wire-cutter asking about the best skim-milk, and the response was that skim milk is nutritionally inferior to whole-milk, so you should at least buy 2% milk if you aren't going to buy whole, and I actually want skim-milk, am I "not the target audience" for the article? > The also are not going to put high-quality panels in any "dumb" TVs they do deign to manufacture I don't know how it currently is, but it used to be that there were far fewer panel manufacturers than companies selling TVs, so anyone with enough volume could make a TV, so this is only true if "they" encompasses all possible TV manufacturers.
- hklijlyh 4y ago[flagged]
- joshchaney 4y agoAmazing that their budget recommendation is the Roku TV. I can tell you from experience if you don't connect them to Wi-Fi there is an LED that will constantly blink on the bottom front of the TV, with no way to disable in software. So unless you like your TV with an electrical tape aesthetic, I would avoid Roku TV's.
- alphabet9000 4y agomy guess for why that is there is hinged on roku's assumption that most people's brains are so fried that the concept of something being "distracting" isn't even a possibility any more
- andrewia 4y agoIt depends on the TV manufacturer, since Roku is just a software layer. My TCL P607 has no such LED.
- joshchaney 4y agoThe one I referred to is a TCL 55S405. It seems the only solution is to never connect it to the internet, or factory reset it and never connect. Once connected if you remove the network details, it will blink indefinitely (at least for many TCL models).
- raffraffraff 4y agoI bought LG digital signage. It's just a big monitor with a few HDMI inputs. I stuck a tiny PC on the VESA mount, and I use that to play media and stream online comment. I don't watch actual TV (cable, satellite etc).
- newhotelowner 4y agoLG used to had non-smart tv for hospitality/healthcare market. All newer models has apps/calls home if you connect to ethernet (Even their non-smart line up). I was able to launch Youtube from my computer. I am assuming they may call home through HDMI.
- SeanLuke 4y ago> “Any TV worth buying is very likely going to ask to connect to your Wi-Fi, and that’s been the case for many years now,” he says. “If you can find one manufactured recently that isn’t smart, I don’t know that I would trust it to be worth what you’re paying for it, because it’ll likely be missing several other salient features that you may actually want, like Bluetooth compatibility, HDR functionality, built-in channel scanning, or the ability to auto-label and optimize devices by HDMI input.” I don't think I would want any of those features.
- kulahan 4y agoThe HDMI input labeling thing is nice. When my family comes to visit, it's pretty neat that they can go to inputs and select "Chromecast" or whatever instead of "HDMI 1"
- dublin 4y agoAnother thing to look at in new TVs, both smart and dumb, is egregious boot times. Instead of the expected instant-on, many new TVs take a Looooooong time to start up - the Sceptre 4K TV I bought for the office last year takes 20 seconds to boot and display output - and it's a dumb TV! I built IoT sensors with embedded web interfaces 20 YEARS AGO that booted in under a quarter second. It's intolerable in the third decade of the 21st century that we're stuck with boot times for appliances that are two orders of magnitude slower that that! (And FWIW, Red Hat had full Linux booting in under five seconds over a decade ago, but it never caught on...)
- thfuran 4y ago>the Sceptre 4K TV I bought for the office last year takes 20 seconds to boot and display output - and it's a dumb TV How is that even possible?
- rolenthedeep 4y ago"just don't connect it to the internet" is such a typical HN response that completely misses the point. A smart TV with no internet connection is still a smart TV. It still has an entire operating system that needs to load wifi, ethernet, Bluetooth, usb driver stacks. It still has an awful, flashy interface that adds unnecessary steps between changing inputs. It still tries to load god knows what apps every time you turn it on. A dumb TV is a panel, some inputs, and an OSD menu that hasn't changed since 2005. It has exactly two functions: select an input and display that input. It should turn on in seconds, not minutes. Changing inputs should have at most two steps and take no more than two seconds. It should have exactly as much processing power as is required to pipe an hdmi signal to the panel and nothing more. It should be so fundamentally incapable of injecting ads that the very idea is laughable. Hell, I'd even prefer it not have speakers. Disconnecting your smart TV from the internet only means it doesn't spy on you and advertise to you. It doesn't solve any of the other problems making these devices awful.
- MrFoof 4y agoIt also doesn't prevent some TVs from finding access points it can connect to, in which it then will entirely on its own. There's quite a few that'll do that.
- madeofpalk 4y agomeh, i think your response is more 'typical HN'. Nether are more correct than the other, but if you're annoyed or distrustful of all the internet connected factors of a TV, just don't connect it to the internet. I think that's a fine non-perfect, pragmatic solution.
- tsujamin 4y agoWhat it doesn’t solve is the friction and bloatware of the tvos. My Sony tv’s Android interface has unbearable input lag using its menus, so I inevitably leave it set to my appletv hdmi input. Could the TV do everything the appletv could? Yep just worse and I can’t get rid of it
- 4y ago
- elpool2 4y agoThe HiSense TV they recommend underneath "Buy a new TV but don’t connect it to Wi-Fi" is NOT a good choice if you're not going to use wi-fi. It will regularly cut away from whatever you're currently watching and ask you to finish setting up the Google assistant thing. Or sometimes it will audibly say "I'm sorry, I can't find you're wifi connection.." at random times, even though you never attempted to enable wi-fi. There is no way to turn these features off.
- nicbou 4y agoThey don't test stuff, they just mention products that exist and pocket affiliate commissions. The Internet you are looking for no longer exists.
- emodendroket 4y agoI feel like all these extreme measures to try and protect your privacy aren't really that effective and are a big inconvenience. I like using the apps on my television.
- btdmaster 4y agoA reminder that https://github.com/iptv-org/iptv https://github.com/iptv-org/iptv is back up now with all its hardware non-requirements!
- Thorentis 4y agoBuy a projector. This has two benefits: 1) Most projectors are not smart, so it solves that problem. 2) You don't have a gaping black hole in your living space urging you to be sucked into watching it. I despise TV and mass media and what it has done to our society. A projector at least hints at film being more of an art form that can be appreciated for its own sake. You have a movie night, you set everything up, you pack it up when done. It's intentional, it's not just "I'm bored, let's scroll through Netflix and find something watchable".
- vlunkr 4y agoMy beef with TVs these days is that they have no buttons. I’ve got little kids, the remote simply doesn’t stay in one place. Both of the TVs I currently own have one button on them. Why? Just give me some volume and input switching buttons please.
- nwellinghoff 4y agoI would buy this type of tv. Please include a tuner. Hope the addressable market is big enough for you to be a success!
- rco8786 4y agoI’ve given into Smart TVs and it’s actually…good? I can only really speak for Roku and Amazon Fire Tv. But being able to search globally across all my streaming services is fabulous.
- rootusrootus 4y ago> But being able to search globally across all my streaming services is fabulous. You can certainly do that with a dumb TV and a chromecast.
- wanderingmind 4y agoSorry maybe I'm missing something. A lot of the TVs are based on Android. LineageOS was able to remove the bloatware and create custom ROM for phones, what makes it so difficult to create similar custom ROMs for TV?
- xp84 4y agoI respect the many reasons why someone might want to not want a smart TV, but honestly, data collection isn't one of them for me personally. If I watch a show, I'd be thrilled if somehow that information makes it into the data at the disposal of whoever has the authority to cancel or renew it, or to greenlight something new from those creators. The worst part about TV before streaming was that the few hundred "Nielsen families" at any given time, with either diaries or special TV-metering boxes, were the only people whose viewership actually counted. (but also, I'm one of those unspeakable monsters who would rather get targeted ads for things I'd like versus the mass-market ads for Ram Trucks, Budweiser, Verizon, etc).
- makeitdouble 4y agoThat was my take for a long time, but since then - the shows we were really engaged, and made an effort to be vocal still didn't flourish. Because guess what: the target market was middle age women at home, so strongly signaling we were in it wasn't helping. - the more targeted the ads, the crappier the experience was. We're leaving this with youtube now, ads often fall into domains I know lot about, and I know they're mild scams or sub par offerings that are trying to gain market through brainwashing, as their competitors are gaining shares through word of mouth. I'm currently getting flooded with Adobe Photoshop ads, and god no I don't want to give money to Adobe.
- autoexec 4y agoThis article gives horrible advice. It says just don't set up wifi, but TVs could still connect to any available open wireless network it can find. It says to use an old TV and just use Roku or Google Chromecast but that just moves the aggressive spying and ad pushing to a box next to your new TV, so that it's really helping. The only answer right now seems to be to use a computer monitor and those are increasingly becoming "smart" as well.
- w-ll 4y agoI have a similar yet more exotic need. I one of the dozen of people that really enjoys 3d content. I have a 40inch LG from about 2013 that suits that need, but have been looking for something bigger. Anyone who's been to Vegas in the last few years know they have pretty decent passive 3d screens (a la Nintendo 3DS) albeit with strict viewing angles. I dont mind something with polarized glasses for viewing as it gives a bigger angle. I just cant find anything on the market. There it seams are a few high end projectors, but my viewing needs are not that big and the room gets a lot of light and would like to be able to have it on during the day (in non 3d mode) Are there any other 3D tv lovers on HN?
- somat 4y agoDoes anybody make third party hdmi display driver boards for these panels? That is, say your panel connects via 30 pin header, does any one make a third party hdmi to 30 pin panel board you could attach in there?
- ChancyChance 4y agoTCP/IP over HDMI exists and is in use. You cannot just "not connect your TV" because if you connect to ROKU which is connected to the Internet, your TV can access the internet. Source: I bought a TV a few years ago, and it somehow popped up an ad even though I didn't connect it to my WiFi. Did some research, and that's how I found out.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y agoWhy would Roku allow the TV to tunnel through it though? AFAIK they see smart TVs as their direct competition.
- ChancyChance 4y agoBeats me. But that is a great question.
- varenc 4y agoIsn't Roku itself full of telemetry, content tracking, and ads? Used to have some housemates with a Roku and it was painful. As far as HDMI over TCP/IP, I actually tried to get a TV online once via a Roku and Ethernet over HDMI but it didn't work. Where you able to confirm this? My issue might been my TV's fault though. Seems like something Roku would want to disable anyway since they have no incentive to get your Smart TV online and would probably prefer if it wasn't.
- ChancyChance 4y agoYes, Roku is full of all that. The ads are minimal so far: they don't pop up while I'm watching things. I am adverse to a smart TV because it just adds unnecessary setup, GUIs, remotes, and cognitive load. A TV should be a monitor, not a fancy hub with in your face content. I deduced the path because an ad showed up that was for a recent film on the setup page. I don't have cable. It could not have been planted in the TV's storage, unless the TV was very new. The only way it could have shown an ad for a film is if it had access to the internet, which I had not set up. I didn't bother checking traffic with WireShark. I asked HN and that's how I found out (old alt account from years ago, don't remember and my stylometric match isn't high enough to find it). I returned the TV the next day because it was too small: I had tried to downsize from a 58" to a 30-something-inch but it was too hard to watch. I could be wrong, but that was my report. Encyclopedia Brown and The Case of the Mysterious Movie Ad.
- anonymousiam 4y agoSince none of the 451 comments (so far) have mentioned this, another alternative is to buy a LG smart TV and then root it with https://rootmy.tv https://rootmy.tv In addition to giving you a homebrew channel with lots of useful tools, it also removes much of the tracking and advertising "features", making the TV behave more as should be expected.
- deadbunny 4y agoGiven they patched the vuln in 2022 that would be bad advice.
- drodgers 4y agoI recently found that new Sony TVs (which run Google TV as the OS) start up with the option to set it up as a 'Basic TV' or 'Smart TV' right from the get-go.
- givemeethekeys 4y agoCommercial Grade TVs might fit the bill.
- klausa 4y agoThe thing missing from this discussion is always that modern TV's _need_ powerful SoCs to look good. They have not been a "just take a signal from this input and display it" kinda devices for a long time, and _definitely_ after HDR became a thing. Your TV does _tons_ of processing to display SDR content (24fps pulldown if the panel isn't 120hz, motion/judder compensation, "sport mode" and a bajillion of other things, and these get orders of magnitude more complicated when HDR gets into the picture (tone mapping is a Whole Thing!), and that's before we've even started talking about compensating for physical quirks of different panel types. And this isn't the "motion smoothing" (though it also does that!) kinda processing, which purists will want to disable. Some of those are configurable and can (should) be turned off, but many of those are just what's required to make the image look good, without messing with the "creative intent" or whatever. OLED displays need to have another layer of processing applied to make sure they don't burn-in; there's another layer of logic when displaying near-black content (turning a pixel takes more time than switching a color; sometimes you don't want to turn off a pixel for a single frame if it's gonna be lit up in the next again, etc, etc.). There are other consideration for other panel types, you also have to worry about heat and bajillion other things. This is why you won't get a high-quality, dumb TVs. You just physically can't make a high-end TV without putting a powerful SoC in it. And if you're doing that, you might as well install an Android on it for a nice OOTB experience. Intersection between people who want the best picture quality you can get, and who are very... particular about what software runs on their TVs (and aren't satisfied with "just don't connect it to Wi-Fi") is not big enough to make a product for, to put it very delicately. People who don't care about picture quality _might_ buy "dumb" TVs, but margins on those are so much smaller, nobody cares.
- htag 4y ago> install an Android on it for a nice OOTB experience Would you really call the OOTB experience on these nice?
- MrBuddyCasino 4y agoWhen people say they want a dumb TV, they usually don’t mean „without advanced silicon“. They mean built-in media streamers, operating system, data collection, ads and bloatware. Those image improvement algorithms don’t run on a general-purpose CPU, there are specialized chips for that.
- jbm 4y ago> because it’ll likely be missing several other salient features that you may actually want, like Bluetooth compatibility, HDR functionality, built-in channel scanning, or the ability to auto-label and optimize devices by HDMI input.” I can't think of any of these that I care about.
- b212 4y agoI’m amazed home cinema projectors aren’t more popular. There’s nothing better than Apple TV box connected to an Epson or BenQ and screen size of 100” or more. I know, it’s off topic but why so many people still need TVs? Television just makes you dumber and is bad for your children. Also all the smart features are crazy bad. Of course the image quality of good TVs is superior but still worse than the one of good monitors.
- doublespanner 4y agoHigh end tvs have significantly better visuals compared with projectors; function in more environments, and are much simpler to set up. If you have a dedicated space and want a huge screen then projectors are the only way to go, otherwise they are worse at colour, contrast, cost and noise...
- wizardforhire 4y agoI want the techniques 1200 of TVs. Classic style, simple functionality with endless ability to fine tune all the parameters. Essentially a studio monitor. It should become the standard for color and picture by which everything else is measured. If it can effect the picture, than there should be a setting. The utilities interface should be straight forward and burned onto a raid level 4 array of non-volatile memory. And it should never ever need to be updated. The silicon should fail before I ever need to buy another Tv.
- disposition2 4y agoPretty unrelated but something that has irked me is the lack of PIP on basically any new TV. I’m not even sure if you can get a TV with PIP anymore. I bought a 50” Samsung about 7 years ago and at that time I had trouble finding a TV with PIP. I upgraded to a 65” LG OLED about a year ago and the picture is absolutely beautiful, it took a while to get used to…seeing a fly on the video had me thinking I had a fly in the house…but alas no PIP. I’ve found alternatives, I have my OTA hooked up to an HDHomeRun and use TiviMate for viewing…so I can get an octobox if desired, but it would still be nice to have the PIP option, especially for something that costs $1500+
- spicyusername 4y agoMy Samsung frame has something kind of like PIP.
- wackget 4y agoTL;DR "no".
- pjfin123 4y agoGo to a thrift store and buy a dumb TV. I bought a 32" dumb TV at the Salvation Army for $60. It's not a flat screen but is only 2" thick. It plugs into HDMI for my laptop and Nintendo Switch, has a nice (dumb) remote for volume and brightness, and has worked wonderfully for 3 years now. The TVs have gotten a lot better in the last 10-15 years so even basic ones work great. I would have been thrilled to have this TV as a kid.
- jfb 4y agoI imagine you could find someone to sell you the panel from a Samsung or LG OLED with a custom controller in a bezel-less case for 10x what the commodity set cost you. But that's the issue -- it's a question of economics, not malice.
- pmontra 4y agoMy smart/non smart TV is my Android phone and my Android tablet with TVH Client, connected to TV Headend running on a Raspberry Pi 3 with a TV hat, which streams the signal it gets from the antenna on the roof of my house. I can probably send it to my smart but disconnected tv with an HDMI cable: I could use an old phone, no idea how to change channel from remote. The result is that I can carry the TV with me, no ads except the ones in the TV broadcast. If you do that, wire the Raspberry to free the spectrum from its signal to the router. Only the phone will talk over wifi in that stream. It improved dramatically the quality of the stream. There are probably TV dongles for Raspberry alternatives.
- mint2 4y ago“ , as well as to security and features updates” Connect it to the WiFi to get the security updates that connecting it to the WiFi makes necessary!
- pmorici 4y agoYou can find TVs without the smart junk you just need to search for the ones marketed for commercial use and digital signage.
- Jedd 4y agoWe've been a projector household for a decade - started with a A$1000 short-throw, then upgraded to a A$1500 long-throw 4y ago after moving to an apartment where the layout didn't lend itself to short-throw, and I also needed bluetooth (audio) cast. For anyone happy with up to 1080 (prices go a bit silly above 1080, at least in AU) and substantially less-than-vanta-black blacks, but appreciate viewing size (about 2 metre diagonal for us) and not having furniture obviously / perversely oriented around a rectangle that's almost always blank, it's an absolute boon. Plug it into your RPi, NUC, etc - where the OS / UI 'smartness' is at your discretion - job done.
- nickcotter 4y agoSame here. We can live without the extra pixels. Space is the barrier though. We have a huge old cowshed that the previous owner turned into a snooker room, and we turned into a library with remote control screen. Makes watching a film more of an event. Nice playing games at “life size” scales too. We’ve been through three projectors in 15 years at ~£350 each.
- Jedd 4y ago> Makes watching a film more of an event. Very much this is a big part of it too, for us - we're not 'TV in the background' people. The (very) few people I know who are find the idea of a projector-only infeasible. For us it's just another feature of the arrangement.
- taneliv 4y agoInteresting! The preferences in this thread very closely match those of ours. Irrelevance to the number of pixels and blackness of black, making it more of an event, having big picture (ours is about 3m diagonal, can't help but sometimes brag to people that my setup is 110"). For me it matters that it's also not a colossal piece of furniture, but a small piece of equipment, tucked near the ceiling and thus usually out of the view. It sounds like a well defined niche. I wish it was a bit less of that, so that I could upgrade to a bit less noisy, with a bit brighter picture, at a lower price point than what they seem to be going for here in Northern Europe.
- mcculley 4y agoThe last time this topic came up for me, I asked a related question about getting a dumb monitor without branding and got many helpful answers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31708936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31708936
- bobleeswagger 4y agoEvery single TV is smart now. Nothing you can do when the industry makes shit choices for everyone.
- userbinator 4y agoAlso related: you can get parts called "scaler boards" which will let you dumb down any smart TV, and you can choose the degree of "smartness" from very basic "inputs only" like a computer monitor, ones with built-in media players, and if you really want, streaming via WiFi and the like. Here's an article I submitted on one a while ago (use archive.org to view, due to linkrot): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24877363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24877363
- SamWhited 4y agoWow, others have said it but they really missed the point. Most of it is just kind of annoying because they're missing the point, but this sentence really stuck out to me (snipped to only show the important parts, there's a bunch of stuff in the middle that's also annoying): "By connecting to the internet [you get] security and features updates". Did they seriously argue that you need to connect to internet, otherwise how will you keep the internet connection secure? Everything else was annoying, that made me want to throw things.
- htag 4y agoThere are other attack vectors of a TV. For example, most TVs have a usb. Imagine an attack in which an attacker gains physical access to your TV and loads malware onto your TV via USB. Now the infected TV is communicating with a nearby WIFI hotspot to upload the audio recordings from the TV's microphone (that exists for voice commands). I think the TV is malware out-of-the-book if connected to a network connection. Either way it's actually a huge vulnerability.
- maxwindiff 4y agoIf your threat model involves people hijacking your TV to spy on you, and one of these attackers managed to enter your home, you are already toast no matter what.
- bartc 4y agoThe idea is that if the TV does not have WiFI or microphone capabilities, none of these are security issues.
- SamWhited 4y agoExactly. The attack vector that matters in practice is having an internet connection and a bunch of unnecessary built-in spy devices and protecting against that is as easy as not having them and allowing people to make their own choices from different vendors about what will be most secure if they do want them (it's easier to replace a Roku or whatever than an entire TV if it stops getting security updates or is found to have a bad privacy record or whatever).
- plaguepilled 4y agoThe approach I use is, boringly, to use a computer monitor and connect that to a hub that I control. Its not elegant but its easy to control.
- chillfox 4y ago“If you can find one manufactured recently that isn’t smart, I don’t know that I would trust it to be worth what you’re paying for it, because it’ll likely be missing several other salient features that you may actually want, like Bluetooth compatibility, HDR functionality, built-in channel scanning, or the ability to auto-label and optimize devices by HDMI input.” NO, those are also smart features and I don't want them either.
- onetimeuser1235 4y agoI have a 2017 Sony Bravia and the screen is beautiful but the Android TV is slow and fills with ads and apps I can't remove. I don't connect it to Wifi and instead connect it to an Apple TV. A few years ago, I started getting artifacts from Netflix when playing from Apple TV. After researching, I found the codecs in the TV were out of date. I connect to Wifi and updated Android TV, and everything has been peachy since. Ideally the TV would come ready to support HDR10 or whatever but that was not the case when I made my purchase. TL;DR - streaming requires codecs and the TV may need an update to support the fancy, 18-bit color the TV is capable of but wasn't available at the time of purchase.
- TechBro8615 4y agoWhy not just buy a monitor? It's got an HDMI port.
- josephcsible 4y agoMonitors tend to be way smaller than TVs and can't be controlled with a remote.
- TechBro8615 4y agoWhat do you use your TV remote for? At my parents' house we have a TV and a cable box, each with its own remote. The only reason to use the TV remote is to turn the power on and off. All the other functionality is in the cable box remote.
- josephcsible 4y agoTurning the volume up and down. Which leads to another point I forgot to mention: people expect TVs to have built-in speakers, but a lot of monitors don't.
- TechBro8615 4y agoMaybe, but smart TVs - and dumb TVs too - have pretty bad speakers. It seems like having a "soundbar" or equivalent is more common than not.
- ck2 4y agoIf you don't have root (and unlocked bootloader) you don't own it. Time for a LineageOS for media devices like TVs? Probably already is out there.
- ForRealsies 4y ago[dead]
- aetherspawn 4y agoYou could just buy an LG TV (which isn’t user hostile and doesn’t show Ads) and not connect it to the internet. I don’t understand the whole point of this. Are you wanting to go back to the days of being unable to watch Netflix without a computer and a HDMI cable, and not being able to play music or look at photos using just your TV? People who request these kinds of products are just making noise and tyre kicking, when in fact I really doubt they want a probably needlessly useless TV.
- HeavyFeather 4y agoI think people are generally concerned with “badly-designed” TVs and conflate “smart TV” with “bloated TV”. If Apple made an actual TV you bet nobody would bat an eye. In fact many advocate using Apple TV alongside their offline TV. I agree that smart TVs are nice to have, especially when they receive Airplay, YouTube, whatever straight from my phone. Dumb TVs are pretty useless on their own, I only use mine to consume internet content anyway.
- School-Cotton 4y ago> Are you wanting to go back to the days of being unable to watch Netflix without a computer and a HDMI cable Yes! That’s exactly what I want! (Except replace “computer” with “Apple TV”).
- mtrower 4y ago> and not being able to play music or look at photos using just your TV? I… I don’t do these things with a TV? Basically, you’re saying that TVs were useless 20 years ago? Why they hell did every household have one? I literally just want something where I can hook up a few consoles and a stereo system, maybe an HTPC if I feel like it. It should have good, responsive controls, be solid and dependable, and large enough that I can comfortably view content and read subtitles from my couch. That’s it. That’s all I want.
- throwaway742 4y agoMy last TV was a TCL and I just removed the WiFi card from it. Still not as good as an actual dumb TV, but it met my needs.
- Godel_unicode 4y agoTl;dr, as anyone’s who has researched this extensively knows, buy a projector or something that’s over 15 years old.
- jim-jim-jim 4y agoSince the article didn't answer the guy's question, I'd just like to mention that Blaupunkt still makes dumb TVs. Hope you read this bro :-)
- ShadowBanThis01 4y agoA projector.
- iancmceachern 4y agoWe use one of these for our TV, I also use one for both my offices. They're great, they have a bunch of inputs and let you do cool things like picture in picture and multiple computers displaying to the same monitor, tiling, etc. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/lg-43-ultrafine-4k-uhd-monitor-with-usb-c-connectivity-black/6416347.p?skuId=6416347&ref=212&loc=1&ref=212&loc=1&&&gclid=Cj0KCQjw_r6hBhDdARIsAMIDhV8qOPkfSIXoSpWhWcyUEbCgGwGWWvXm65k7qRlyQC-xco33PxJYTVgaAsazEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds https://www.bestbuy.com/site/lg-43-ultrafine-4k-uhd-monitor-...
- Gud 4y agoDon’t get a tv, get a large monitor.
- nobaddays 4y agoLG oled with the wifi turned off
- isoprophlex 4y ago> However, you should still occasionally connect the TV to the internet for a minute to see if it needs any firmware updates, which can fix bugs and improve performance. Yeah, or degrade performance, or brick it, or make the UI even more ridiculous, or fill it up with cancerous ads. No thanks. If it barely works at all, don't update it.
- magicseth 4y agoAs an aside, if you actually want to ask the wire cutter random questions, you can check out the green bubble in the lower left here: https://askthis.site/nytimes.com/wirecutter https://askthis.site/nytimes.com/wirecutter
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y agoToo bad they didn’t list the “not worth it” panels. I get most of my TV from free to air streaming apps and other streaming services, and I used a HDMI switch. So I can physically label the different devices. I’d love a shitty panel with no features.
- xweb 4y agoInsignia TVs from Best Buy - they have a 43-inch and a 40-inch that both work great.
- theK 4y agoWhat HN reader would actually suggest "don't connect it to the Internet" as a viable solution? In almost all cases it just leads to the TV nagging you after a while. So unless one considers frustration and not being able to use the device as a solution, how on earth is that a solution? HN crowd making a great display of short sightedness here...
- cleerline 4y agothere are plenty of 40+ inch monitors. maybe one of them would suit.
- ChuckMcM 4y agoSuch a disappointing answer. I'm torn between thinking the NYT is being disingenuous to avoid offending advertisers or they are just willfully ignorant. A flat panel display gets a computer to "run" it. We get that, if you're adding a tuner capable of decoding digital broadcasts or cable signals, it can do that without doing reporting on what you are watching.
- thelittleone 4y agoWould removing these smart features necessitate a price increase since they appear to be "ad supported" or "sell your data supported"?
- Reptur 4y agoWe need some iFixit tutorials on TVs that converts smart TVs to dumb with just HDMI inputs. I bet it wouldn't be too difficult.
- pabs3 4y agoA better option might be an open source smart TV. If Software Freedom Conservancy win their lawsuit against Vizio for GPL violations in their TVs, you will probably be able to install open source Linux distros with Kodi on any Vizio TV and soon afterwards lots of other smart TV vendors will be similar. Eventually the geeks will create something like OpenWRT for TVs, a distro focused on improving the experience of open source TVs. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vizio.html
- amelius 4y agoCheck here: https://panelook.com https://panelook.com (Not affiliated)
- deafpolygon 4y ago> “Honestly,” says Thorin, “from a data privacy standpoint, an unconnected DVD player and a library card is a fantastic combo.” Not in this day and age where libraries track your usage and sell that, too.
- petesergeant 4y agoOne day they’ll pass a law that every ad-supported product needs to also be available in a reasonably priced ad-free form.
- bambax 4y ago> By connecting to the internet, these smart TVs provide relatively seamless access to the 11-billion streaming services at your disposal (...), as well as to security and features updates The reason they need to provide "security" updates is because they're connected to the internet in the first place!
- bkfh 4y agoWhen my TV is not in use I just completely disconnect it from power — and hence the Internet. It’s just a small switch I use. Low-tech
- __lambda__ 4y agosdsdsdsdsd
- sundvor 4y agoJust buy any TV with a good display and switch to the HDMI input? That's what I've been doing for nearly two decades now, with a HTPC to control what I'm watching. No need to enable wifi for what's essentially a dumb display then.
- ornornor 4y agoSmart TVs still take for ever to turn on or switch inputs, whether they also spy on you and advertise at you or not.
- sundvor 4y agoLate reply, but yeah the delays in switching inputs is pretty mind boggling. Especially when you need to do it straight on startup - it's SO sluggish on my 6 year old Samsung. If the remote had hard coded input buttons instead of all the ones I never use, I'd be very happy indeed. (Swapping between an Xbox and the HTPC).
- rcarmo 4y agoI’m actually surprised Smart TV manufacturers haven’t been sued for their data collection practices or legislated against given the privacy implications - at least in the EU.
- acd 4y agoBuy a smart tv but dont connect it to the Internet no Wifi, no lan cable. Instead connect and use offline video sources such as Blueray, VLC.
- chaostheory 4y agoI don’t know why this isn’t the answer. I’m sure there will be some people who will bring up, “but it will connect to an open wifi network” argument; but that isn’t common in many places and it still will probably force you to agree to terms and conditions which the TV won’t be able to do. Also what many people have missed is that the promise of data collection revenue is what has made TVs unbelievably cheap. It’s crazy that you can get a 70” for less than $500.
- nicbou 4y agoI don't want something actively hostile in my house. I don't want to set up countermeasures to protect myself from something that I own.
- chaostheory 4y agoThat’s my point. You don’t have to setup any countermeasures if you don’t connect them to the internet. It’s a very simple solution. You’re over complicating it
- nicbou 4y agoThat is a countermeasure. Mine is not to bring that device into my house, not making sure it doesn't find an open Wi-Fi network.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- nicolas_t 4y agoIt's not the answer because some TVs from some companies Hi-Sense will keep complaining that they aren't connected, interrupting whatever you're watching.
- acd 4y agoPlease stop calling internet connected devices that spy on peoples behaviour to sell targeted personalised advertisements smart. Dumb spying devices: * Smart Phone, ad phone * Smart Watch, ad watch * Smart TV, ad tv Possibly the older device was smarter since that did not spy on you.
- sourcecodeplz 4y agoThis is so silly lmao. You are wirecutting but now you want non-smart? Cable WAS non-smart. Wirecutting and streaming by definition is smart bwahaha :))
- adamors 4y agoUhm.. not if you use an external media box like an Apple TV, Plex etc.
- JamesAdir 4y agoI think that the answer is projector. It seems that none of them are "smart", they offer great quality and have a longer life. The downside is mounting them, but it's a one time job.
- nicolas_t 4y agoI was going to make that exact same comment. I bought a JVC video projector (B-stock for a steep discount) and it's great, amazing picture on a very large screen and no wifi, data collection or anything, it's dumb as a brick :) (well assuming a brick that can do hdr tone mapping, etc.. :))
- cram0202 4y ago"TV for smart people".
- emeril 4y agoisn't it easier/cheaper to just buy a "smart tv" and never connect it to the internet?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- webdoodle 4y agoI cut the cord 20 years ago, after my last attempt to use Dish. I supposedly got 500 channels, but barely could tolerate watching 3 of them. They didn't offer my local PBS station or local networks, and the ads were so invasive, I couldn't stomach it. My last TV purchase was a real shitshow ~5 years ago. As many are noticing, the manufacturers don't seem to want to make them. I ended up buying a supposed smart TV, but have never have given it access to the network, and disabled everything I could in it's interface. I use a combination of Youtube-dl and OSMC to download content I want, without the commercials or ads. Luckily one of my local networks has a substantial youtube channel, so I got local content again, as well as PBS.
- TrueDuality 4y agoThis article doesn't touch on any of the reasons why I don't want a smart TV. Sure I care about my privacy and security, I do have a smart TV, and I do keep it disconnected from my WiFi. I also have a Roku plugged into it that is likely capturing more information than I would like it to, none of that is why I don't want a smart TV. It comes down to upgradability for me. The display is going to last far longer than the smart software running on it. Turning on my TV takes a full minute and a half before it will accept inputs from its remote, I've periodically connected it to the internet to check for updates and in two years there hasn't been a single one. That's not true for every TV but in general my experience has been the built-in Roku, and other smart TV features are poorer quality than the stand alone sticks and either don't get updates at all or significantly less frequently. Because of the nature of these appliances they aren't as disposable so manufacturers have less incentive to provide those updates and high quality experiences as the stand alone products. All that smart poor quality software on the TV itself compromises the core functionality of the TV itself which is being a good medium for the display of a user's choice content.
- specialist 4y ago> It comes down to upgradability for me. The display is going to last far longer than the smart software running on it. Exactly. Same objection applies to appliances, "smart cities", and so forth. No thank you.
- alkonaut 4y agoDon’t. You’ll pay more for a far worse product. Get the biggest seller from a big brand. Yes it’ll be a smart TV but you don’t need to connect it to the internet. You can use it like a dumb display. I hear there are models that do nag about connecting, so thoroughly check reviews to see that’s not the case.
- raydev 4y agoSo who's working on rooting TVs and writing custom firmware?
- capital_guy 4y agoAs some others are noting - the article is extremely disappointing. A huge number of software developers are wary of this stuff because we know how telemetry works, how operating systems degrade over time, how internet connectivity is its own attack vector, etc. Some people _don't want_ these 'features' that for some reason the article is professing _are_ what you pay for when you buy a tv. The TV is just a display. I can connect an Apple TV or a Roku or Cable box or what have you and control the data and software the way _I_ want to. It should be a perfectly reasonable ask that your data not be sold out beneath you for products you use - whether it's your car or your TV or your weather app on your phone. Half of the Smart TVs out there are Google TvOS stuff asking for google accounts.
- bruce343434 4y agoBuy a monitor?
- notorandit 4y agoBuy a monitor and hooka PC to it.
- 1shooner 4y agoTangential anecdote: I have a TCL Roku TV, and recently switched to using an AppleTV playing through one of the TCL HDMI inputs. I was incredulous to see that Roku was analyzing the signal of that port, identifying the shows I was watching, then overlaying an ad onto the AppleTV signal to sell me the show (that I was already in the middle of watching?) on a Roku channel. There was an opt-out in the Roku OS settings, but I hadn't realized just how invasive this monitoring was. The point being that you can't necessarily simply opt-out of a smart tv by switching your media player.
- mugr 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen
- julianlam 4y agoAnd yet Sceptre is not mentioned? That's a startling omission by Wirecutter. Their entire MO is building not-smart TVs. You can even (apparently) buy them at Wal Mart.
- porlex 4y agoWhat about not-smart cars? Anyone have recommendations there? I don't want "infotainment" and touch screens man...
- grozzle 4y agoGet a Pi sbc of some sort, install an OS you trust, run Kodi on it, and only ever use the TV to display that. Streaming services, YouTube etc, are available as Kodi addons. Though it's a bit of a hassle to do l the first log in to your YT account, these days. Never use the "smart" features of a TV, which are basically data harvesting to subsidise the cost. Never ever tell your TV the wifi password. Works for me!
- kup0 4y agoWow, super frustrating that this article, instead of actually listing options for non-smart TVs, just brushes them off with saying that they'll be "missing features" you would want, then lists features plenty of people don't need. Thanks for essentially nothing instead of actually answering the question, Wirecutter.