44 ms·

Ken Thompson's 75 year project: A century of popular music in a jukebox [video]

549 points by nixcraft 4y ago

r9550684 4y ago
when asked what language ken used, he seemed to answer "Algol"? I'm surprised there's no further discussion or clarification in the comments. if anybody heard clearer, or has some feedback on what he actually might've been using, I'd appreciate a response. the other question that I have about the video is, which one is "the alligator talk"?
asah 4y ago
jump past the intro: https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?feature=share&t=672 https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?feature=share&t=672 announcement: https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?feature=share&t=3475 https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?feature=share&t=347...
ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
Is he serious or just trolling? (He has previous form for trolling/having a laugh)
- tyingq 4y ago
  He seems quite serious. He mentions he has 12 stacks of 4 each of the Rpi devices, and another 20 around the house.
  - HighChaparral 4y ago
    The real reason for the shortages is revealed!
    - Kon-Peki 4y ago
      Hey now, before the pandemic, you could get as many Pi4s as you wanted. And if you were ok with the 2GB and/or 4GB version, they were usually selling at less than MSRP. At the Microcenter near me, they kept stacks of them in a cabinet near the cash registers, and would offer them up at a discount when checking out.
    - fundad 4y ago
      Institutional buyer
  - ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
    Thanks. That's a lot of devices. I've got six of the Model 4 Rpi and whilst they're fun to play with, they're not ideal in terms of their hardware and it's a pain trying to find a decent USB drive to boot them from to get decent performance (they'd be so much better with an M2 interface). The only one that I use regularly is one that I've got LibreElec installed on and running as a Kodi box.
- deleted 4y ago
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tyingq 4y ago
"8GB ought to be enough for anybody", I guess? Also, he said "Raspbian", rather than the "Raspberry Linux" in the title...which I don't think is a thing.
- IncRnd 4y ago
  Raspbian and Raspberry Linux both refer to Raspberry Pi OS, which was renamed from Raspbian. [1] [1] https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/
  - tyingq 4y ago
    I don't see the phrase "Raspberry Linux" in the linked page. Google results only seems to show those words as a deliberate name for a few niche things like "RT Raspberry Linux". Meaning, I still don't think "Raspberry Linux" is a thing. HN should probably change the post title here.
    - mattl 4y ago
      Yeah it’s not called Raspberry Linux. This is a mistake but I think most people know he meant Raspbian/RPi OS
      - tyingq 4y ago
        He said Raspbian. It's just the post title here that's off. Edit: Yes, it's something of a nit, but it helps for searching, etc, later. Or if in the future, a different product does have that name. "Raspberry Pi OS" is an option if Raspbian seems obscure.
        Kiro 4y ago
        The post title is fine. I wouldn't have clicked this if it said something obscure like "Raspbian".
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
ggop 4y ago
Actual announcement from title is at 58:30
- deleted 4y ago
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jchw 4y ago
Raspbian* apparently. That's really interesting; even the highest tier Raspberry Pi still feels pretty sluggish as a desktop thanks to the limitations of SD card throughput/latency/queue depth/etc. I wonder what his usage looks like.
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  With the pi 4 you can boot off a USB3 drive like a SSD. I setup a 4gb memory model with SSD boot and it's a flawless little desktop--it runs full gnome and Ubuntu just fine. If you can get a 8gb memory model it would be perfect. I love it.
  - mathisfun123 4y ago
    You literally lost perf by moving to ssd through USB https://alexellisuk.medium.com/upgrade-your-raspberry-pi-4-with-a-nvme-boot-drive-d9ab4e8aa3c2 https://alexellisuk.medium.com/upgrade-your-raspberry-pi-4-w... >Interestingly, the SD card gave a seemingly better buffered disk read than the M2 SATA SSD at 43.35 MB/sec
    - qbasic_forever 4y ago
      And? For desktop use it doesn't matter. If you're not paging out of ram you will never ever notice. I'm not sitting here running disk benchmarks all day... I'm browsing some web pages and using a text editor.
      - NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
        Hope you never want to do updates or reconfigure any packages or change up any docker containers, etc.
        qbasic_forever 4y ago
        It doesn't matter. I'm not losing sleep over an apt upgrade taking maybe 10 more seconds. I'd much rather live with that and have a little desktop that barely sips 5 watts of power total.
mrits 4y ago
See you back next week
rattray 4y ago
What was the stated reason?
- YPPH 4y ago
  57:50 of the video. In effect, disillusion with Apple's direction.
  - okamiueru 4y ago
    In case anyone wants to know if he clarified on why Raspbian in particular: he did not. Raspberry Pi hardware would be the obvious constraint. Though, that only pushes the question one step further: Why a Raspberry Pi hardware? I... don't know. If you went from Apple devices, it seems like a non-sequitur. There are much, much better options, unless on an extremely limited budget. But, I also don't know his use case. Does he have a gazillion of them for some (I assume interesting) reason?
    - smt88 4y ago
      Yes, he has a lot of Pis (something like 50) around his house.
- newaccount74 4y ago
  > I have most of my life, because I was sorta born into it, run Apple > Recently, meaning the last 5 years or so, I have become more and more depressed... > (laughter) > And what Apple is doing to something that should allow you to work is just atrocious. > But they are taking a lot of space and time to do it, so it's okay. > And I have come, in the last month or two, to say even though I've invested a zillion years in Apple, I'm throwing it away. > And I'm going to Linux, to Raspbian in particular > (applause) > Anyway, I'm half transitioned now.
transfire 4y ago
More developers should do this! Why? If your software runs smoothly of. Raspberry Pi then you know it will fly on typical PCs.
- steve1977 4y ago
  But I need 32 GB for my JetBrains IDE…
ithkuil 4y ago
Wasn't he using plan9?
- dekhn 4y ago
  he ran on Goobuntu at Google for some time. he was already using linux- and he said he had worked on the beta for linux in the past.
- deleted 4y ago
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jasoneckert 4y ago
It's also worthy to note that shortly after that part of the video, he notes (from another question) that he has over 50 Raspberry Pis (including 12 stacks of 4xPi4s). So his choice of Raspberry Pi Linux is likely the result of that.
- Macha 4y ago
  So that's where all the Pi 4s went
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- blibble 4y ago
  they run plain debian just fine these days (with no random dude on github deciding to add microsoft directly into apt's trusted keys/repository list)
nntwozz 4y ago
Well good for him. But we have to let go of this notion that for GNU/Linux to win, Apple has to lose. I'm paraphrasing but can't shake that feeling when I hear those claps in the video. When are we ever going to grow up?
- tyingq 4y ago
  I'd summarize it more as him saying he's choosing to opt out of Apple's direction because he doesn't like it. Was there something beyond that...calling for Apple's demise?
  - nntwozz 4y ago
    I'm referring to the audience laughing and then clapping when he mentions he's depressed about Apple.
    - rcstank 4y ago
      What’s wrong with other people agreeing? Maybe they like Linux too. Also, why does it matter to you if people have a different opinion?
      - nntwozz 4y ago
        To answer your questions, nothing and it doesn't. The laughter and clapping just reads as puerile to me. On a tangent I'm very fond on GNU/Linux, I run a Debian homelab plus some Pi 4s. I also use Macs since 2006.
        filmgirlcw 4y ago
        I was in the audience and I certainly didn’t clap. It wasn’t the whole crowd (tho it was most of it, as one would expect at a major Linux community conference), but I rolled my eyes by the crowd reaction too — tho I don’t blame/judge/fault people for their reaction. I’ve always been the Mac user at the Linux conference (and I like Linux very much, but I like it on the server or an RPi) and you know going in it’s like wearing Yankees hat to a bar full of Red Sox fans.
kjhughes 4y ago
For those who might prefer text over video: Q: What's your operating system of choice, today? A: I have for most of my life, because I was sort of born into it, run Apple. Right now, recently, meaning within the last five years, I’ve become more and more and more depressed and [Laughter] what Apple is doing to something which should allow you to work is just atrocious, but they are taking a lot of space and time to do it so it’s ok. [Laughter] And I have come within the last month or two to say even though I’ve invested a zillion years in Apple, I’m throwing it away and I’m going to Linux -- to Raspbian in particular. [Applause]. Anyway, I'm half transitioned now.
- justinzollars 4y ago
  I have to admit, I tried and failed to switch away from Apple. I bought a Linux Laptop - an System 76. I was surprised at how terrible the battery management of linux was compared with my mac. And that particular issue broke me.
  - qumpis 4y ago
    It requires lots of manual control but from my experience I can match or exceed battery life in comparison to running windows, with some tweaking. Out of the box it was terrible as well.
    - acc_297 4y ago
      What did you adjust?
      - prophesi 4y ago
        This is for the Framework laptop and not a System76 machine, but going through this lets my laptop last an entire day doing Android dev. https://community.frame.work/t/guide-linux-battery-life-tuning/6665 https://community.frame.work/t/guide-linux-battery-life-tuni...
        4y ago
sureglymop 4y ago
Here I am waiting for apple to finally introduce side loading (and with that hopefully easier ways to jailbreak) in iOS so that I can switch to a better smartphone experience.
- layer8 4y ago
  There is zero reason to assume that sideloading will make jailbreaks easier. Anyone can already sideload today using a tool like AltStore [0]. It uses the same mechanism that app developers use to test their apps on actual hardware. The only difference to “real” sideloading is that Apple limits it to a maximum number of ten apps and that the apps need to be refreshed after seven days. [0] https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/
nprateem 4y ago
[flagged]
- mrelectric 4y ago
  I doubt there's a software engineer that doesn't know of Ken.
  - stodor89 4y ago
    You're vastly overestimating the average modern software engineer.
- deleted 4y ago
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voytec 4y ago
Exact fragment: 57:49 [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?t=3469s https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?t=3469s
never_inline 4y ago
Boy didn't he use plan 9 or something?
- euclaise 4y ago
  Perhaps you're thinking of Rob Pike?
  - mseepgood 4y ago
    Ken Thompson was also part of the Bell Labs Plan 9 team before they went to Google and created Go, but I’m sure both don’t use it as their regular OS today.
nzoschke 4y ago
I feel the swing of the pendulum here. I own mostly but Apple gear right now but I’m being pulled back towards more open and extensible hardware and software. The GPU is a big one. Nvidia hardware unlocks a lot of gaming, graphics, video and machine learning stuff. Open vs closed is another one. Android development unlocks so much more hardware and software and peripheral and protocol support. For the first time in a decade do have an Android device I develop on, and am very close to building a PC with a GPU and am considering a Steam Deck. Open and hackable and extensible for the win.
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
  Jeez, if nvidia hardware is "open and extensible" by your standards, they must have been really lowered by Apple's shenanigans.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    If I'm not mistaken, Apple was the one that blacklisted Nvidia hardware, not the other way around. You can still download bog-standard UNIX drivers for Nvidia hardware, Apple just won't let you install them.
    - sbuk 4y ago
      It’s understandable when you consider why, but that doesn’t fit you narrative.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        It was understandable that Apple stopped shipping Nvidia hardware. Blacklisting Nvidia hardware and preventing the installation of Nvidia drivers is another thing, though, and goes too far in speaking on the user's behalf. If that's somehow more of a "narrative" than Apple's perspective on the matter, I don't know what to tell you.
        prmoustache 4y ago
beepbooptheory 4y ago
Before spending time around here, I used to think it would be an embarrassing reveal for most programmers if it came out they used Apple hardware. Like being a WWII expert and rooting for Germany. Couldn't believe that people who could appreciate the beautiful magic of coding and OSS could still even like hyper-commodity computers. But I understand now how naive that was.
- Kye 4y ago
  "It Just Works" was Apple's value proposition for a long time. Now that's on shakier ground, and other operating systems are catching up on stability to the point where the vastly superior cost:performance of non-Apple hardware increasingly wins out. Linux and Windows OEMs are also catching up on style with options available that don't compromise on repairability.
Koshkin 4y ago
Have lived with MacOS on a “late 2014” Mac Mini until it became so slow as to be virtually unusable (amongst other things). Now happily run Linux on it.
- lproven 4y ago
  FWIW I still use a 2011 Mini and my fiancee's laptop is a 2009 MBP. The one thing you need to know is that, just as with Windows, occasionally, you must reformat your machine and reinstall the OS clean. Do not migrate your files & settings. Backup your files, yourself, manually, by hand. Clean install the OS, reinstall the apps you need, yourself, manually. Then copy back your data. If you use an automatic backup tool, it also brings all your cruft back. Don't do that. Do it by hand and only keep the stuff you need, not what some automatic wizard app thinks you need, because they don't think. It is, in my experience, much less of an issue with Linux. Helps there occasionally, too, though. Old Macs are still perfectly usable if you do your housekeeping. They have not mystically slowed down over the years or anything.
adamgordonbell 4y ago
I was at the talk, and it's strange this what people take from it. You should watch the whole thing and see what he built over years. I was a bit disappointed that most of the questions ignored his talk about a very cool jukebox he built and focused on OS drama. He built a jukebox with all hit songs he could find in it 1900-2000 and for prerecorded music, got a player piano and sheet music and midi and integrated the whole thing. Touch screens, voice activation and so on. Hardware and software and data hoarding project. He said he has massive cabinets of CDs, all the music he ripped and tested audio encoders with his own ears. Ken is 80, and still building cool side projects and scratching his own itch! That's the story. Be like Ken by building something cool, not by using whatever OS.
- asddubs 4y ago
  i guess at the end of the day, people just want you to play the hits
- klyrs 4y ago
  Thanks, the headline has all the appeal to me of "big celeb wears new t-shirt." The jukebox sounds awesome
  - mtillman 4y ago
    I’m sure he’d laugh at being called a big celeb. Jukebox is def cooler than the headline.
    - watt 4y ago
      If Ken is not a big celeb, then nobody is.
- hedora 4y ago
  Better headline: “Unix Legend Ken Thompson Announces he is Switching From iTunes to a Raspberry PI, a Player Piano and Cabinets of old CD’s” Hmmm. I meant for that to be snarky, but it is a better headline.
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
While a raspi is not a great dev env, maybe raspbian on a modern laptop is fantastic precisely because it has been developed for constrained envs. I have to give this a try.
phendrenad2 4y ago
How was he running MacOS on RPIs? Emulation?
ar9av 4y ago
I wonder why he'd transition to Raspbian and work on a Raspberry Pi. Maybe to get that nostalgic "let's wait 4 minutes for our 20 line program to compile" feeling again that he must have had in the late 60's and early 70's :P People: "Linux is not ready for the desktop." Ken: "You know nothing. Compared to what I'm used to, it's been ready since version 0.01."
_9rq6 4y ago
My main three asks for Ubuntu to replace my mac is - 1. Alternative to magnet or any window management systems that does not require elaborate tmux setup. 2. More adoption of snapstore and auto-updates. 3. Comparable performance and battery life to today's arm laptops.
- andrewmutz 4y ago
  At least for the first request, Pop OS is a fantastic replacement for the Mac. It the system 76 variant and is based on Ubuntu. I switched last year and have been blown away at how far desktop Linux has come I use it full time for work and home. Chrome, VS Code and Steam all work flawlessly. It's also nice to be able to develop software in containers without needing any VM layer.
- freeplay 4y ago
  > 1. Alternative to magnet or any window management systems that does not require elaborate tmux setup. Try Pop_Os or install Gnome extention on you're current install (https://support.system76.com/articles/pop-shell/ https://support.system76.com/articles/pop-shell/) > 2. More adoption of snapstore and auto-updates. Flatpak is what you're looking for. > 3. Comparable performance and battery life to today's arm laptops. While I agree with this one, I think this is more on the chip and hardware manufacturers.
pjmlp 4y ago
Whatever what some CS star uses is not what is going to pay for the bills of each one individually. Use whatever you like.
- deleted 4y ago
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prime17569 4y ago
I wonder what he would think of Asahi Linux for Apple silicon Macs.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  There's still a lot of work to be done on Asahi, so as a daily-driver, perhaps not yet.
chj 4y ago
At one point, I even went back to Win10. But it's become so bad. Now I find myself a happy mate desktop user.
amelius 4y ago
He should have written his LICENSE.txt more carefully ...
NelsonMinar 4y ago
I just wish there were hardware to support a full switch to Raspbian. Ken has a lot of RPi 4. Those are usable as an interactive desktop but it's not a great experience, the hardware is just barely capable of being a responsive desktop OS. I really like what Google has been doing with ChromeOS and Chromebooks. I wish there were a program like Chromebooks for a Linux desktop. Arguably that is ChromeOS itself, but the Linux environment you use is a VM.
- hammyhavoc 4y ago
  FydeOS is Chromium OS. Works on Pi.
wkat4242 4y ago
I moved from 15+ years of Mac to FreeBSD about 2 years ago for similar reasons. It's too locked-down, too opinionated, too iOS for me now. Very happy with FreeBSD + KDE which gives me configuration choices again.
- williamDafoe 4y ago
  Exactly. Everyone is missing the big picture, focusing on Ken's jukebox, when its pretty shocking that Ken's giving up on a BSD-inspired (UNIX v7-descended) OS. Frankly, I was ready to throw my employer's mac against the wall when it refused to allow me to install gdb. The move towards gatekeeper and putting everything inside its own private walled garden will definitely ruin open source tools that can access any file on the system, making apple superior to all developers. I am pretty sure that some of these gestapo changes have been rolled back.
- zvmaz 4y ago
  Could you share with us why you chose FreeBSD over Linux?
  - milgra 4y ago
    I did exactly the same and my reason is : Linux is chaos, FreeBSD is order. FreeBSD is so very well engineered, everything feels just right and logical. It's not the case with the fragmented world of Linux distributions. Unfortunately FreeBSD doesn't have the laptop driver coverage Linux has so I'm using Void Linux on my laptops because it is the most BSDish Linux.
    - wkat4242 4y ago
      Yeah good point. I'm not really a 'laptop guy'. I only use desktops (mostly NUCs). Which is basically a laptop without the battery, screen and keyboard anyway. But I've heard WiFi drivers in particular are not so good - never really looked into it because I wire all my stuff up anyway. I use a thinkpad laptop for work and a cheap $150 Chuwi laptop for the makerspace but that's all.
  - 4y ago
jonas21 4y ago
The announcement is in the Q&A after the talk - but the talk itself is definitely is worth watching. It starts at 10:56 (link below), and covers his "75-year project". It's kind of an amazing story that his life has spanned so many different eras of technology. https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?t=656 https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?t=656
dcow 4y ago
As a lazy developer I also dislike what’s slowly happening to macOS. Apple wants you to switch to sandboxed apps but they don't provide a way for you to do even half the things a traditional app can (because they can’t imagine them all up front). That’s just frustrating and lazy on their part and makes the developer UX shitty. But, as an end user, what Apple is doing (bringing sandboxed apps and better security to the desktop) is inarguably the right thing to do. It’s a far superior position for the user and it greatly raises the bar for malware. As developers, to me, it feels a little bit backwards. I guess my critique is that there must be a nuanced way to say “hey Apple you need to do a better job at supporting valid developer use cases” (and I’ll be the first to admit I have many grievances) while at the same time acknowledging that the increased complexity of modern computing systems is moving the needle meaningfully from a security standpoint and so we should be okay with having to work harder to keep our users secure. Like, I’d truly hope if we all switched to Linux, we’d find a way to make secure boot and code signing standard. Not just say “ah isn’t the old dying way of user-domain permissions nice let’s live here forever”. Even Microsoft is pushing code signatures and sandboxed apps. We should be making a stink and pushing for these platforms to allow custom root signing keys and fully secure/sandboxed replacements for the functionality they’re taking away. Not just throwing up our hands and saying fuck security I’ll just use Linux. Not a great image…
- lapcat 4y ago
  Developers vs. users is a false dichotomy. Users need software. Without software, there's nothing to use. The native Mac software ecosystem is slowly dying. Eventually everything on the Mac will just be a cross-platform afterthought.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - lapcat 4y ago
      > only in your little dreams Please don't violate the HN guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > 21.5% of developers used macOS in 2015,[1] increasing to 27.5% in 2020. I said the native Mac software ecosystem is slowly dying, and eventually everything on the Mac will just be a cross-platform afterthought. The total number of registered Apple developers (not Mac specifically) isn't really relevant to that. Every iOS developer has to use macOS in order to access Xcode, but that doesn't mean they're making native Mac software.
sircastor 4y ago
I’ve given strong thought to switching away from macOS. I too have been a Max user all my life, a Macintosh Plus being the first computer in our house. I would get fed up at Apple’s hardware choices or its limitations on users. I have had a dozen Linux computers with various systems on them. I don’t know if it’s because they were Dell machines, or if it’s an Ubuntu thing, but I have had almost every single one turn into a brick after a Canonical-issued update. The kind of brick where you have to boot into the boot loader and into single user mode (?) and start issuing arcane commands to try to recover your system with some old kernel. The thing that keeps me on my Mac is that I can mess around with Unix computing all day, and then go back to being with done when I want to get back to using my computer. I don’t feel confident like that with Linux.
- fanatic2pope 4y ago
  My experience is that what holds Linux back is NVidia. Their proprietary drivers work great when you first install them, but inevitably break on update bringing you to a text mode emergency command line. When I made the switch to Linux in 2018 I made the conscious decision to avoid Nvidia hardware and it has worked out really well.
  - dagmx 4y ago
    NVidia have moved most of the driver stack on to device local firmware instead. The parts of their driver that interface with the GPU are now largely open source as a result. Of course this only applies to more recent GPUs so doesn’t invalidate your comment
    - chupasaurus 4y ago
      Only if you think that firmware doesn't "interface with the GPU", 2 biggest parts of their driver are that and profiles for games/apps (which are accessible by design though), and they've open-sourced the loader of firmware recently.
- troad 4y ago
  I'm sorry to hear about your experience! I feel like noting that my primary driver has been Kubuntu on an (nvidia) laptop for a few years now, and it's been the most pleasant experience. Sure, you get rough edges every now and again, but I was honestly getting rougher edges on the Mac (it's been a long time since they 'just worked', alas). Certainly no involuntary grub prompts to date, thankfully! Happy as a clam with my Linux laptop as a daily driver, including for gaming (!) and work.
Kukumber 4y ago
[dead]
fundad 4y ago
Apple claimed “Unix” because Mach shipped with BSD tools for testing and research purposes. Now even Windows has a Linux compatibility layer now too and everyone but RTOS all run containers and VMS. Funny story: even Apple switched to Linux in the Data Center. They doubled down on Appliances (which happen to run an OS). Are people pressed that an appliance won’t fit hacker workstation/embedded needs!?
slim 4y ago
I feel privileged to watch this. I live in north Africa and I feel like taking a flight to California to go visit him, inquire about his health, tell him about my children progress at school, show him how much I love him and how much I'm grateful.
- ramrunner0xff 4y ago
  completely agree with you. ken and the not so big group of people who has positively shaped all our technology really need more appreciation from us users, although i'm sure he would be weirded out by it like any proper geek. That been said: thanks ken!
  - slim 4y ago
    it's weird for me too. I really felt he was my grandpa
- deleted 4y ago
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noisy_boy 4y ago
That is a hacker's hacker. Hacked a 50s jukebox that combines LCD display with manual switches and supports voice input to play the chosen song on a player's piano - from a catalog that spans a century. Also loved the video of his wife enjoying the setup - straightforward and effective.
noisy_boy 4y ago
To those who are complaining about the lack of power/issues with Raspberry pi, don't forget, this is not one of your run-of-the-mill tinkerers, this is Ken Thompson.
nonethewiser 4y ago
Ok…
rwalle 4y ago
Eh, why should anyone ever care about another person's OS choice? Can't people mind their own business? Why is this even on hacker news?
zvmaz 4y ago
I have used Linux for most of my adult life: I don't get the sens of control over my own computing with other operating systems. It's not clear though why exactly Thomson is switching.
beefman 4y ago
Timestamp for the OS question (but the whole talk is great): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaandEt_pKw&t=3470s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaandEt_pKw&t=3470s
steponlego 4y ago
Raspbian is kind of shit. For such a huge community there is very little being done with it. Also, systemd is EXTREMELY heavy for a Pi.
DiscourseFan 4y ago
I was using a combination of windows/linux for a while until my archlinux laptop shit the bed after an update and I decided to say, fuck it, I'm finally buying a macbook because at least then I can still do unix shit without having to worry about everything working the next day. I'm not happy about "Apple Silicon", it does feel restrictive and often times the only way to get around it is to use licensed VMs, which feels like a bit of a rip off. At the same time, my laptop runs phenomenally well, does everything I need it to do, and it never dies or gets overheated under normal use. I can't really complain.
- wbear 4y ago
  You might like your macbook's hardware more than you think. It's a pretty open platform with a standardized instruction set and on open bootloader than can run Linux with pretty good hardware support for such a new platform.
- rakoo 4y ago
  So you went from archlinux, a system explicitly telling you you have to get involved in your own computer to make sure it works, to a macbook where everything is taken care of for you. What did you expect with archlinux exactly ?
- textread 4y ago
  I would love to know more about what you mean by 'archlinux shit the bed'. If you dont remember the exact error code, any text from the error screen, or even vague description is fine. I believe that spending 15mins on the arch forums or IRC would probably result in somebody helping you out with the right pacman incantation. YMMV, my personal experience. On a tangent, I would love to hear more about any Debian stable users out there and their experience with the conservative approach to updating. I am particularly fond of this Debian wiki article on DontBreakDebian: https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
- prmoustache 4y ago
  Archlinux is a rolling release distro. Which mean you are supposed to: - update them very frequently - check the news before any update which mention any manual intervention needed This is definitely a distro for people who want to get involved in the sysadmin part of it. A distro like Fedora will have a new release every 6 months and each release and ~390 days of support. You aren't expect to do manual intervention, just let it update itself upon reboot/poweroff from times to times and do a major upgrade, every 6 months to 1 year. Debian has 2y releases cycles and +- 3y of support, in the ubuntu world it is like Fedora or LTS (5y of support). If you want the longest extended lifecycle, RHEL and its clones have pretty much 10years of support without any fuss. Add to that the immutable distros like Fedora Silverblue, OpenSUSE MicroOS and some others where it is virtually impossible to make it shit the bed, even while being stupid. So in the linux world you can definitely choose your poison, from the less eventful one to the one needing more attention. It looks like you didn't choose wisely. If I had to setup a distro for the least knowledgeable people, I would set it up with an RHEL or Almalinux and install a more modern browser through Flatpak. As long as the hardware is supported from day 1 they would expect a desktop that do not change at all for 10years.
jjice 4y ago
What an incredible guy. Him, Dennis, the rest of Bell Labs, and all the other less known influential computing pioneers are such treasures. We're a fortunate field to have the kind of people that we do.
fgmalpha 4y ago
I watched this whole video, (except the front bit). At the risk of being flamed, the audience came off as being incredibly rude. Perhaps this is par for the course with this crowd; if so, I am glad that I am not one of them.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
throwaway25135 4y ago
JUKEBOX MUSIC COLLECTION Computer: You're also collecting music? Thompson: It's kind of a personal/research hobby/project. Let me explain it from an external point of view. Basically, I'm just collecting music. I'm getting lists from various sources—top 10s, top 50s—and I try to collect the music. Right now, my list has around 35,000 songs, of which I've collected around 20,000. I compress the songs with a Bell Labs-invented algorithm called PAC [Perceptual Audio Coding] and store them on a jukebox storage system. I started this before MP3 was heard of on the network. PAC is vastly superior to MP3. My collection is not generally available because of the legal aspects. I went to legal and told them I was collecting a lot of music, but I don't think they realized what I meant by "a lot." Anyway, they said that in the case of research there's something similar to fair use and that they'd back me, but wouldn't go to jail for me. So I can't release it generally. But it's pretty impressive. It's split-screen like a Web browser; you can walk down lists, years, or weeks. Computer: It's a personal hobby. Thompson: It's hard to differentiate since, if you haven't noticed, almost everything I've done is personal interest. Almost everything I've done has been supported and I'm allowed to do it, but it's always been on the edge of what's acceptable for computer science at the time. Even Unix was right on the edge of what was acceptable at Bell Labs at the time. That's almost been my history. Source: http://genius.cat-v.org/ken-thompson/interviews/unix-and-beyond http://genius.cat-v.org/ken-thompson/interviews/unix-and-bey...

549 points by nixcraft 4y ago

when asked what language ken used, he seemed to answer "Algol"? I'm surprised there's no further discussion or clarification in the comments. if anybody heard clearer, or has some feedback on what he actually might've been using, I'd appreciate a response. the other question that I have about the video is, which one is "the alligator talk"?

asah 4y ago

jump past the intro: https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?feature=share&t=672 https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?feature=share&t=672 announcement: https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?feature=share&t=3475 https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?feature=share&t=347...

ndsipa_pomu 4y ago

Is he serious or just trolling? (He has previous form for trolling/having a laugh)

tyingq 4y ago
He seems quite serious. He mentions he has 12 stacks of 4 each of the Rpi devices, and another 20 around the house.
- HighChaparral 4y ago
  The real reason for the shortages is revealed!
  - Kon-Peki 4y ago
    Hey now, before the pandemic, you could get as many Pi4s as you wanted. And if you were ok with the 2GB and/or 4GB version, they were usually selling at less than MSRP. At the Microcenter near me, they kept stacks of them in a cabinet near the cash registers, and would offer them up at a discount when checking out.
  - fundad 4y ago
    Institutional buyer
- ndsipa_pomu 4y ago
  Thanks. That's a lot of devices. I've got six of the Model 4 Rpi and whilst they're fun to play with, they're not ideal in terms of their hardware and it's a pain trying to find a decent USB drive to boot them from to get decent performance (they'd be so much better with an M2 interface). The only one that I use regularly is one that I've got LibreElec installed on and running as a Kodi box.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

tyingq 4y ago

"8GB ought to be enough for anybody", I guess? Also, he said "Raspbian", rather than the "Raspberry Linux" in the title...which I don't think is a thing.

IncRnd 4y ago
Raspbian and Raspberry Linux both refer to Raspberry Pi OS, which was renamed from Raspbian. [1] [1] https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/software/
- tyingq 4y ago
  I don't see the phrase "Raspberry Linux" in the linked page. Google results only seems to show those words as a deliberate name for a few niche things like "RT Raspberry Linux". Meaning, I still don't think "Raspberry Linux" is a thing. HN should probably change the post title here.
  - mattl 4y ago
    Yeah it’s not called Raspberry Linux. This is a mistake but I think most people know he meant Raspbian/RPi OS
    - tyingq 4y ago
      He said Raspbian. It's just the post title here that's off. Edit: Yes, it's something of a nit, but it helps for searching, etc, later. Or if in the future, a different product does have that name. "Raspberry Pi OS" is an option if Raspbian seems obscure.
      - Kiro 4y ago
        The post title is fine. I wouldn't have clicked this if it said something obscure like "Raspbian".
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

ggop 4y ago

Actual announcement from title is at 58:30

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jchw 4y ago

Raspbian* apparently. That's really interesting; even the highest tier Raspberry Pi still feels pretty sluggish as a desktop thanks to the limitations of SD card throughput/latency/queue depth/etc. I wonder what his usage looks like.

qbasic_forever 4y ago
With the pi 4 you can boot off a USB3 drive like a SSD. I setup a 4gb memory model with SSD boot and it's a flawless little desktop--it runs full gnome and Ubuntu just fine. If you can get a 8gb memory model it would be perfect. I love it.
- mathisfun123 4y ago
  You literally lost perf by moving to ssd through USB https://alexellisuk.medium.com/upgrade-your-raspberry-pi-4-with-a-nvme-boot-drive-d9ab4e8aa3c2 https://alexellisuk.medium.com/upgrade-your-raspberry-pi-4-w... >Interestingly, the SD card gave a seemingly better buffered disk read than the M2 SATA SSD at 43.35 MB/sec
  - qbasic_forever 4y ago
    And? For desktop use it doesn't matter. If you're not paging out of ram you will never ever notice. I'm not sitting here running disk benchmarks all day... I'm browsing some web pages and using a text editor.
    - NoZebra120vClip 4y ago
      Hope you never want to do updates or reconfigure any packages or change up any docker containers, etc.
      - qbasic_forever 4y ago
        It doesn't matter. I'm not losing sleep over an apt upgrade taking maybe 10 more seconds. I'd much rather live with that and have a little desktop that barely sips 5 watts of power total.

mrits 4y ago

See you back next week

rattray 4y ago

What was the stated reason?

YPPH 4y ago
57:50 of the video. In effect, disillusion with Apple's direction.
- okamiueru 4y ago
  In case anyone wants to know if he clarified on why Raspbian in particular: he did not. Raspberry Pi hardware would be the obvious constraint. Though, that only pushes the question one step further: Why a Raspberry Pi hardware? I... don't know. If you went from Apple devices, it seems like a non-sequitur. There are much, much better options, unless on an extremely limited budget. But, I also don't know his use case. Does he have a gazillion of them for some (I assume interesting) reason?
  - smt88 4y ago
    Yes, he has a lot of Pis (something like 50) around his house.
newaccount74 4y ago
> I have most of my life, because I was sorta born into it, run Apple > Recently, meaning the last 5 years or so, I have become more and more depressed... > (laughter) > And what Apple is doing to something that should allow you to work is just atrocious. > But they are taking a lot of space and time to do it, so it's okay. > And I have come, in the last month or two, to say even though I've invested a zillion years in Apple, I'm throwing it away. > And I'm going to Linux, to Raspbian in particular > (applause) > Anyway, I'm half transitioned now.

transfire 4y ago

More developers should do this! Why? If your software runs smoothly of. Raspberry Pi then you know it will fly on typical PCs.

steve1977 4y ago
But I need 32 GB for my JetBrains IDE…

ithkuil 4y ago

Wasn't he using plan9?

dekhn 4y ago
he ran on Goobuntu at Google for some time. he was already using linux- and he said he had worked on the beta for linux in the past.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

jasoneckert 4y ago

It's also worthy to note that shortly after that part of the video, he notes (from another question) that he has over 50 Raspberry Pis (including 12 stacks of 4xPi4s). So his choice of Raspberry Pi Linux is likely the result of that.

Macha 4y ago
So that's where all the Pi 4s went
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
blibble 4y ago
they run plain debian just fine these days (with no random dude on github deciding to add microsoft directly into apt's trusted keys/repository list)

nntwozz 4y ago

Well good for him. But we have to let go of this notion that for GNU/Linux to win, Apple has to lose. I'm paraphrasing but can't shake that feeling when I hear those claps in the video. When are we ever going to grow up?

tyingq 4y ago
I'd summarize it more as him saying he's choosing to opt out of Apple's direction because he doesn't like it. Was there something beyond that...calling for Apple's demise?
- nntwozz 4y ago
  I'm referring to the audience laughing and then clapping when he mentions he's depressed about Apple.
  - rcstank 4y ago
    What’s wrong with other people agreeing? Maybe they like Linux too. Also, why does it matter to you if people have a different opinion?
    - nntwozz 4y ago
      To answer your questions, nothing and it doesn't. The laughter and clapping just reads as puerile to me. On a tangent I'm very fond on GNU/Linux, I run a Debian homelab plus some Pi 4s. I also use Macs since 2006.
      - filmgirlcw 4y ago
        I was in the audience and I certainly didn’t clap. It wasn’t the whole crowd (tho it was most of it, as one would expect at a major Linux community conference), but I rolled my eyes by the crowd reaction too — tho I don’t blame/judge/fault people for their reaction. I’ve always been the Mac user at the Linux conference (and I like Linux very much, but I like it on the server or an RPi) and you know going in it’s like wearing Yankees hat to a bar full of Red Sox fans.

kjhughes 4y ago

For those who might prefer text over video: Q: What's your operating system of choice, today? A: I have for most of my life, because I was sort of born into it, run Apple. Right now, recently, meaning within the last five years, I’ve become more and more and more depressed and [Laughter] what Apple is doing to something which should allow you to work is just atrocious, but they are taking a lot of space and time to do it so it’s ok. [Laughter] And I have come within the last month or two to say even though I’ve invested a zillion years in Apple, I’m throwing it away and I’m going to Linux -- to Raspbian in particular. [Applause]. Anyway, I'm half transitioned now.

justinzollars 4y ago
I have to admit, I tried and failed to switch away from Apple. I bought a Linux Laptop - an System 76. I was surprised at how terrible the battery management of linux was compared with my mac. And that particular issue broke me.
- qumpis 4y ago
  It requires lots of manual control but from my experience I can match or exceed battery life in comparison to running windows, with some tweaking. Out of the box it was terrible as well.
  - acc_297 4y ago
    What did you adjust?
    - prophesi 4y ago
      This is for the Framework laptop and not a System76 machine, but going through this lets my laptop last an entire day doing Android dev. https://community.frame.work/t/guide-linux-battery-life-tuning/6665 https://community.frame.work/t/guide-linux-battery-life-tuni...
      - 4y ago

sureglymop 4y ago

Here I am waiting for apple to finally introduce side loading (and with that hopefully easier ways to jailbreak) in iOS so that I can switch to a better smartphone experience.

layer8 4y ago
There is zero reason to assume that sideloading will make jailbreaks easier. Anyone can already sideload today using a tool like AltStore [0]. It uses the same mechanism that app developers use to test their apps on actual hardware. The only difference to “real” sideloading is that Apple limits it to a maximum number of ten apps and that the apps need to be refreshed after seven days. [0] https://altstore.io/ https://altstore.io/

nprateem 4y ago

[flagged]

mrelectric 4y ago
I doubt there's a software engineer that doesn't know of Ken.
- stodor89 4y ago
  You're vastly overestimating the average modern software engineer.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

voytec 4y ago

Exact fragment: 57:49 [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?t=3469s https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?t=3469s

never_inline 4y ago

Boy didn't he use plan 9 or something?

euclaise 4y ago
Perhaps you're thinking of Rob Pike?
- mseepgood 4y ago
  Ken Thompson was also part of the Bell Labs Plan 9 team before they went to Google and created Go, but I’m sure both don’t use it as their regular OS today.

nzoschke 4y ago

I feel the swing of the pendulum here. I own mostly but Apple gear right now but I’m being pulled back towards more open and extensible hardware and software. The GPU is a big one. Nvidia hardware unlocks a lot of gaming, graphics, video and machine learning stuff. Open vs closed is another one. Android development unlocks so much more hardware and software and peripheral and protocol support. For the first time in a decade do have an Android device I develop on, and am very close to building a PC with a GPU and am considering a Steam Deck. Open and hackable and extensible for the win.

5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
Jeez, if nvidia hardware is "open and extensible" by your standards, they must have been really lowered by Apple's shenanigans.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  If I'm not mistaken, Apple was the one that blacklisted Nvidia hardware, not the other way around. You can still download bog-standard UNIX drivers for Nvidia hardware, Apple just won't let you install them.
  - sbuk 4y ago
    It’s understandable when you consider why, but that doesn’t fit you narrative.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      It was understandable that Apple stopped shipping Nvidia hardware. Blacklisting Nvidia hardware and preventing the installation of Nvidia drivers is another thing, though, and goes too far in speaking on the user's behalf. If that's somehow more of a "narrative" than Apple's perspective on the matter, I don't know what to tell you.
      - prmoustache 4y ago

beepbooptheory 4y ago

Before spending time around here, I used to think it would be an embarrassing reveal for most programmers if it came out they used Apple hardware. Like being a WWII expert and rooting for Germany. Couldn't believe that people who could appreciate the beautiful magic of coding and OSS could still even like hyper-commodity computers. But I understand now how naive that was.

Kye 4y ago
"It Just Works" was Apple's value proposition for a long time. Now that's on shakier ground, and other operating systems are catching up on stability to the point where the vastly superior cost:performance of non-Apple hardware increasingly wins out. Linux and Windows OEMs are also catching up on style with options available that don't compromise on repairability.

Koshkin 4y ago

Have lived with MacOS on a “late 2014” Mac Mini until it became so slow as to be virtually unusable (amongst other things). Now happily run Linux on it.

lproven 4y ago
FWIW I still use a 2011 Mini and my fiancee's laptop is a 2009 MBP. The one thing you need to know is that, just as with Windows, occasionally, you must reformat your machine and reinstall the OS clean. Do not migrate your files & settings. Backup your files, yourself, manually, by hand. Clean install the OS, reinstall the apps you need, yourself, manually. Then copy back your data. If you use an automatic backup tool, it also brings all your cruft back. Don't do that. Do it by hand and only keep the stuff you need, not what some automatic wizard app thinks you need, because they don't think. It is, in my experience, much less of an issue with Linux. Helps there occasionally, too, though. Old Macs are still perfectly usable if you do your housekeeping. They have not mystically slowed down over the years or anything.

adamgordonbell 4y ago

I was at the talk, and it's strange this what people take from it. You should watch the whole thing and see what he built over years. I was a bit disappointed that most of the questions ignored his talk about a very cool jukebox he built and focused on OS drama. He built a jukebox with all hit songs he could find in it 1900-2000 and for prerecorded music, got a player piano and sheet music and midi and integrated the whole thing. Touch screens, voice activation and so on. Hardware and software and data hoarding project. He said he has massive cabinets of CDs, all the music he ripped and tested audio encoders with his own ears. Ken is 80, and still building cool side projects and scratching his own itch! That's the story. Be like Ken by building something cool, not by using whatever OS.

asddubs 4y ago
i guess at the end of the day, people just want you to play the hits
klyrs 4y ago
Thanks, the headline has all the appeal to me of "big celeb wears new t-shirt." The jukebox sounds awesome
- mtillman 4y ago
  I’m sure he’d laugh at being called a big celeb. Jukebox is def cooler than the headline.
  - watt 4y ago
    If Ken is not a big celeb, then nobody is.
hedora 4y ago
Better headline: “Unix Legend Ken Thompson Announces he is Switching From iTunes to a Raspberry PI, a Player Piano and Cabinets of old CD’s” Hmmm. I meant for that to be snarky, but it is a better headline.

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

While a raspi is not a great dev env, maybe raspbian on a modern laptop is fantastic precisely because it has been developed for constrained envs. I have to give this a try.

phendrenad2 4y ago

How was he running MacOS on RPIs? Emulation?

ar9av 4y ago

I wonder why he'd transition to Raspbian and work on a Raspberry Pi. Maybe to get that nostalgic "let's wait 4 minutes for our 20 line program to compile" feeling again that he must have had in the late 60's and early 70's :P People: "Linux is not ready for the desktop." Ken: "You know nothing. Compared to what I'm used to, it's been ready since version 0.01."

_9rq6 4y ago

My main three asks for Ubuntu to replace my mac is - 1. Alternative to magnet or any window management systems that does not require elaborate tmux setup. 2. More adoption of snapstore and auto-updates. 3. Comparable performance and battery life to today's arm laptops.

andrewmutz 4y ago
At least for the first request, Pop OS is a fantastic replacement for the Mac. It the system 76 variant and is based on Ubuntu. I switched last year and have been blown away at how far desktop Linux has come I use it full time for work and home. Chrome, VS Code and Steam all work flawlessly. It's also nice to be able to develop software in containers without needing any VM layer.
freeplay 4y ago
> 1. Alternative to magnet or any window management systems that does not require elaborate tmux setup. Try Pop_Os or install Gnome extention on you're current install (https://support.system76.com/articles/pop-shell/ https://support.system76.com/articles/pop-shell/) > 2. More adoption of snapstore and auto-updates. Flatpak is what you're looking for. > 3. Comparable performance and battery life to today's arm laptops. While I agree with this one, I think this is more on the chip and hardware manufacturers.

pjmlp 4y ago

Whatever what some CS star uses is not what is going to pay for the bills of each one individually. Use whatever you like.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

prime17569 4y ago

I wonder what he would think of Asahi Linux for Apple silicon Macs.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
There's still a lot of work to be done on Asahi, so as a daily-driver, perhaps not yet.

chj 4y ago

At one point, I even went back to Win10. But it's become so bad. Now I find myself a happy mate desktop user.

amelius 4y ago

He should have written his LICENSE.txt more carefully ...

NelsonMinar 4y ago

I just wish there were hardware to support a full switch to Raspbian. Ken has a lot of RPi 4. Those are usable as an interactive desktop but it's not a great experience, the hardware is just barely capable of being a responsive desktop OS. I really like what Google has been doing with ChromeOS and Chromebooks. I wish there were a program like Chromebooks for a Linux desktop. Arguably that is ChromeOS itself, but the Linux environment you use is a VM.

hammyhavoc 4y ago
FydeOS is Chromium OS. Works on Pi.

wkat4242 4y ago

I moved from 15+ years of Mac to FreeBSD about 2 years ago for similar reasons. It's too locked-down, too opinionated, too iOS for me now. Very happy with FreeBSD + KDE which gives me configuration choices again.

williamDafoe 4y ago
Exactly. Everyone is missing the big picture, focusing on Ken's jukebox, when its pretty shocking that Ken's giving up on a BSD-inspired (UNIX v7-descended) OS. Frankly, I was ready to throw my employer's mac against the wall when it refused to allow me to install gdb. The move towards gatekeeper and putting everything inside its own private walled garden will definitely ruin open source tools that can access any file on the system, making apple superior to all developers. I am pretty sure that some of these gestapo changes have been rolled back.
zvmaz 4y ago
Could you share with us why you chose FreeBSD over Linux?
- milgra 4y ago
  I did exactly the same and my reason is : Linux is chaos, FreeBSD is order. FreeBSD is so very well engineered, everything feels just right and logical. It's not the case with the fragmented world of Linux distributions. Unfortunately FreeBSD doesn't have the laptop driver coverage Linux has so I'm using Void Linux on my laptops because it is the most BSDish Linux.
  - wkat4242 4y ago
    Yeah good point. I'm not really a 'laptop guy'. I only use desktops (mostly NUCs). Which is basically a laptop without the battery, screen and keyboard anyway. But I've heard WiFi drivers in particular are not so good - never really looked into it because I wire all my stuff up anyway. I use a thinkpad laptop for work and a cheap $150 Chuwi laptop for the makerspace but that's all.
- 4y ago

jonas21 4y ago

The announcement is in the Q&A after the talk - but the talk itself is definitely is worth watching. It starts at 10:56 (link below), and covers his "75-year project". It's kind of an amazing story that his life has spanned so many different eras of technology. https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?t=656 https://www.youtube.com/live/kaandEt_pKw?t=656

dcow 4y ago

As a lazy developer I also dislike what’s slowly happening to macOS. Apple wants you to switch to sandboxed apps but they don't provide a way for you to do even half the things a traditional app can (because they can’t imagine them all up front). That’s just frustrating and lazy on their part and makes the developer UX shitty. But, as an end user, what Apple is doing (bringing sandboxed apps and better security to the desktop) is inarguably the right thing to do. It’s a far superior position for the user and it greatly raises the bar for malware. As developers, to me, it feels a little bit backwards. I guess my critique is that there must be a nuanced way to say “hey Apple you need to do a better job at supporting valid developer use cases” (and I’ll be the first to admit I have many grievances) while at the same time acknowledging that the increased complexity of modern computing systems is moving the needle meaningfully from a security standpoint and so we should be okay with having to work harder to keep our users secure. Like, I’d truly hope if we all switched to Linux, we’d find a way to make secure boot and code signing standard. Not just say “ah isn’t the old dying way of user-domain permissions nice let’s live here forever”. Even Microsoft is pushing code signatures and sandboxed apps. We should be making a stink and pushing for these platforms to allow custom root signing keys and fully secure/sandboxed replacements for the functionality they’re taking away. Not just throwing up our hands and saying fuck security I’ll just use Linux. Not a great image…

lapcat 4y ago
Developers vs. users is a false dichotomy. Users need software. Without software, there's nothing to use. The native Mac software ecosystem is slowly dying. Eventually everything on the Mac will just be a cross-platform afterthought.
- Maursault 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > only in your little dreams Please don't violate the HN guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > 21.5% of developers used macOS in 2015,[1] increasing to 27.5% in 2020. I said the native Mac software ecosystem is slowly dying, and eventually everything on the Mac will just be a cross-platform afterthought. The total number of registered Apple developers (not Mac specifically) isn't really relevant to that. Every iOS developer has to use macOS in order to access Xcode, but that doesn't mean they're making native Mac software.

sircastor 4y ago

I’ve given strong thought to switching away from macOS. I too have been a Max user all my life, a Macintosh Plus being the first computer in our house. I would get fed up at Apple’s hardware choices or its limitations on users. I have had a dozen Linux computers with various systems on them. I don’t know if it’s because they were Dell machines, or if it’s an Ubuntu thing, but I have had almost every single one turn into a brick after a Canonical-issued update. The kind of brick where you have to boot into the boot loader and into single user mode (?) and start issuing arcane commands to try to recover your system with some old kernel. The thing that keeps me on my Mac is that I can mess around with Unix computing all day, and then go back to being with done when I want to get back to using my computer. I don’t feel confident like that with Linux.

fanatic2pope 4y ago
My experience is that what holds Linux back is NVidia. Their proprietary drivers work great when you first install them, but inevitably break on update bringing you to a text mode emergency command line. When I made the switch to Linux in 2018 I made the conscious decision to avoid Nvidia hardware and it has worked out really well.
- dagmx 4y ago
  NVidia have moved most of the driver stack on to device local firmware instead. The parts of their driver that interface with the GPU are now largely open source as a result. Of course this only applies to more recent GPUs so doesn’t invalidate your comment
  - chupasaurus 4y ago
    Only if you think that firmware doesn't "interface with the GPU", 2 biggest parts of their driver are that and profiles for games/apps (which are accessible by design though), and they've open-sourced the loader of firmware recently.
troad 4y ago
I'm sorry to hear about your experience! I feel like noting that my primary driver has been Kubuntu on an (nvidia) laptop for a few years now, and it's been the most pleasant experience. Sure, you get rough edges every now and again, but I was honestly getting rougher edges on the Mac (it's been a long time since they 'just worked', alas). Certainly no involuntary grub prompts to date, thankfully! Happy as a clam with my Linux laptop as a daily driver, including for gaming (!) and work.

Kukumber 4y ago

[dead]

fundad 4y ago

Apple claimed “Unix” because Mach shipped with BSD tools for testing and research purposes. Now even Windows has a Linux compatibility layer now too and everyone but RTOS all run containers and VMS. Funny story: even Apple switched to Linux in the Data Center. They doubled down on Appliances (which happen to run an OS). Are people pressed that an appliance won’t fit hacker workstation/embedded needs!?

slim 4y ago

I feel privileged to watch this. I live in north Africa and I feel like taking a flight to California to go visit him, inquire about his health, tell him about my children progress at school, show him how much I love him and how much I'm grateful.

ramrunner0xff 4y ago
completely agree with you. ken and the not so big group of people who has positively shaped all our technology really need more appreciation from us users, although i'm sure he would be weirded out by it like any proper geek. That been said: thanks ken!
- slim 4y ago
  it's weird for me too. I really felt he was my grandpa
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

noisy_boy 4y ago

That is a hacker's hacker. Hacked a 50s jukebox that combines LCD display with manual switches and supports voice input to play the chosen song on a player's piano - from a catalog that spans a century. Also loved the video of his wife enjoying the setup - straightforward and effective.

noisy_boy 4y ago

To those who are complaining about the lack of power/issues with Raspberry pi, don't forget, this is not one of your run-of-the-mill tinkerers, this is Ken Thompson.

nonethewiser 4y ago

Ok…

rwalle 4y ago

Eh, why should anyone ever care about another person's OS choice? Can't people mind their own business? Why is this even on hacker news?

zvmaz 4y ago

I have used Linux for most of my adult life: I don't get the sens of control over my own computing with other operating systems. It's not clear though why exactly Thomson is switching.

beefman 4y ago

Timestamp for the OS question (but the whole talk is great): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaandEt_pKw&t=3470s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaandEt_pKw&t=3470s

steponlego 4y ago

Raspbian is kind of shit. For such a huge community there is very little being done with it. Also, systemd is EXTREMELY heavy for a Pi.

DiscourseFan 4y ago

I was using a combination of windows/linux for a while until my archlinux laptop shit the bed after an update and I decided to say, fuck it, I'm finally buying a macbook because at least then I can still do unix shit without having to worry about everything working the next day. I'm not happy about "Apple Silicon", it does feel restrictive and often times the only way to get around it is to use licensed VMs, which feels like a bit of a rip off. At the same time, my laptop runs phenomenally well, does everything I need it to do, and it never dies or gets overheated under normal use. I can't really complain.

wbear 4y ago
You might like your macbook's hardware more than you think. It's a pretty open platform with a standardized instruction set and on open bootloader than can run Linux with pretty good hardware support for such a new platform.
rakoo 4y ago
So you went from archlinux, a system explicitly telling you you have to get involved in your own computer to make sure it works, to a macbook where everything is taken care of for you. What did you expect with archlinux exactly ?
textread 4y ago
I would love to know more about what you mean by 'archlinux shit the bed'. If you dont remember the exact error code, any text from the error screen, or even vague description is fine. I believe that spending 15mins on the arch forums or IRC would probably result in somebody helping you out with the right pacman incantation. YMMV, my personal experience. On a tangent, I would love to hear more about any Debian stable users out there and their experience with the conservative approach to updating. I am particularly fond of this Debian wiki article on DontBreakDebian: https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian https://wiki.debian.org/DontBreakDebian
prmoustache 4y ago
Archlinux is a rolling release distro. Which mean you are supposed to: - update them very frequently - check the news before any update which mention any manual intervention needed This is definitely a distro for people who want to get involved in the sysadmin part of it. A distro like Fedora will have a new release every 6 months and each release and ~390 days of support. You aren't expect to do manual intervention, just let it update itself upon reboot/poweroff from times to times and do a major upgrade, every 6 months to 1 year. Debian has 2y releases cycles and +- 3y of support, in the ubuntu world it is like Fedora or LTS (5y of support). If you want the longest extended lifecycle, RHEL and its clones have pretty much 10years of support without any fuss. Add to that the immutable distros like Fedora Silverblue, OpenSUSE MicroOS and some others where it is virtually impossible to make it shit the bed, even while being stupid. So in the linux world you can definitely choose your poison, from the less eventful one to the one needing more attention. It looks like you didn't choose wisely. If I had to setup a distro for the least knowledgeable people, I would set it up with an RHEL or Almalinux and install a more modern browser through Flatpak. As long as the hardware is supported from day 1 they would expect a desktop that do not change at all for 10years.

jjice 4y ago

What an incredible guy. Him, Dennis, the rest of Bell Labs, and all the other less known influential computing pioneers are such treasures. We're a fortunate field to have the kind of people that we do.

fgmalpha 4y ago

I watched this whole video, (except the front bit). At the risk of being flamed, the audience came off as being incredibly rude. Perhaps this is par for the course with this crowd; if so, I am glad that I am not one of them.

deleted 4y ago

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throwaway25135 4y ago

JUKEBOX MUSIC COLLECTION Computer: You're also collecting music? Thompson: It's kind of a personal/research hobby/project. Let me explain it from an external point of view. Basically, I'm just collecting music. I'm getting lists from various sources—top 10s, top 50s—and I try to collect the music. Right now, my list has around 35,000 songs, of which I've collected around 20,000. I compress the songs with a Bell Labs-invented algorithm called PAC [Perceptual Audio Coding] and store them on a jukebox storage system. I started this before MP3 was heard of on the network. PAC is vastly superior to MP3. My collection is not generally available because of the legal aspects. I went to legal and told them I was collecting a lot of music, but I don't think they realized what I meant by "a lot." Anyway, they said that in the case of research there's something similar to fair use and that they'd back me, but wouldn't go to jail for me. So I can't release it generally. But it's pretty impressive. It's split-screen like a Web browser; you can walk down lists, years, or weeks. Computer: It's a personal hobby. Thompson: It's hard to differentiate since, if you haven't noticed, almost everything I've done is personal interest. Almost everything I've done has been supported and I'm allowed to do it, but it's always been on the edge of what's acceptable for computer science at the time. Even Unix was right on the edge of what was acceptable at Bell Labs at the time. That's almost been my history. Source: http://genius.cat-v.org/ken-thompson/interviews/unix-and-beyond http://genius.cat-v.org/ken-thompson/interviews/unix-and-bey...