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Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

408 points by lucasjans 4y ago

bamboozled 4y ago
I'm done with Apple.
amelius 4y ago
Why not put "US" on the shipments instead, as it's closer to the truth?
- axus 4y ago
  If Trump had exchanged Taiwan for Puerto Rico, we could, but missed opportunity.
  - yieldcrv 4y ago
    yeahhh I'm going to need Puerto Rico's parallel tax structure for as long as possible so if we could not alter their territorial status and also keep Congress split on everything that would be greeaaaaat just keep posting "red waaaave" on your instagram account and "blue waaaave" on your twitter account so that everyone stays in their respective echo chamber, I think at least till 2025 would be good for me, I'll probably have cleared all my US earnings from taxes and left (w/ a different excuse) by then
    - trebbble 4y ago
      Clicks the "learn more" button
      - yieldcrv 4y ago
        So US citizens have to pretty much just ignore the entire offshore industry for legal tax avoidance, but fortunately the US offers US citizens many ways to not have a tax bill. Some US territories have a parallel tax system that isn't underneath the Federal Government, whereas states are under the federal government, so a resident of a state has to pay state taxes as well as federal taxes. Although there are "categories" of types of territories, these categories are pretty much made up on the spot and each territory is its own separate case, as the US only has 5 inhabited territories all with unique tax and citizenship conditions. Long story short, Puerto Rico has a tax system that is treated like being a foreign country, but checks the box for total Federal US tax compliance. Under Puerto Rico's "Act 60", which mainland transplants to Puerto Rico can apply for, many transactions are taxed at zero percent, most importantly capital gains (for trades initiated while on the island and sold on the island, pro-rata based on time for longer held positions), while "PR sourced income" is taxed at 5%, or an up-to-4% corporate tax rate (so the same activity done through a corporation is taxed lower, and the dividends are tax free, and the sales of shares are tax free) So if you want to clear all your money in the eyes of the Federal government, then living a year in PR to execute or finish a specific plan is good. Congress has a little control over PR, but its more beneficial and easier to perpetuate division in Congress, at least at this class level, than pretend to have some other trendy cause that your friends want you to espouse. and finally I made a reference to renouncing citizenship. If you leave "for tax purposes" then there exit taxes. So the goal is to keep more of your money at your own discretion, and then leave for any reason that isn't "tax purposes".
lucasjans 4y ago
This company pretends it has the moral high ground, but like most of corporate America, they always have an eye on Chinese profits. America's future is at stake and we won't wake up until it's too late.
- elil17 4y ago
  Does it matter what Apple does? I would think that reading "Made in Chinese Tiapei" only serves as a reminder of China's policy.
  - mountainb 4y ago
    Apple will knuckle under in about 3 seconds when the war starts and do whatever the US government asks them to do.
    - shoulderfake 4y ago
    - sneak 4y ago
      100% of Apple's important chips depend on Taiwan continuing to be Taiwan (and TSMC continuing to be TSMC). ~100% of Apple's manufacturing depends on China continuing to permit hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in Chinese factories (Foxconn's plants in Zhengzhou and elsewhere) building Apple products. I'm not sure what you mean by "knuckle under" in this context, but Apple is, today, wholly dependent upon Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturing (for chips, and assembly, respectively). If there is a war between China and Taiwan, or China and the US, Apple stands to lose the most of any single organization, I think.
      - mountainb 4y ago
        Yes, they are dependent on China and Taiwan, but they will knuckle under to the point to which the company is seriously disrupted if not destroyed once the war starts. I think it behooves everyone at Apple to prepare for the war and to figure out likely alternatives, and to also assume that the usual grey market way of getting around it will be anticipated by the federal government, and under war conditions the federal government may have a harsher point of view on it than they usually would with country of origin manipulation. Even if the US wins a war over Taiwan, it'd probably take a long time to resolve, and trade would be disrupted for long enough that nothing is getting off the island until peace is re-established. Right now, if nothing changes with the US-China trajectory, war is coming. If the trajectory changes, that might change.
earthboundkid 4y ago
Why is this interesting? Taiwan has to compete in the Olympics as Chinese Taipei or whatever. Yeah, any place that China can influence, it makes Taiwan call itself China.
- Pulcinella 4y ago
  Taiwan calls itself China. The official name is literally the Republic of China. Both China and Taiwan agree that there is just one China, but disagree about what formal unification would or should look like. Edit: The USA also agrees that there is one China, at least officially, though it’s not like the US doesn’t like to change its mind frequently. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué
  - warning26 4y ago
    Everyone knows Taiwan is its own country, the US et all merely engage in the "one china" pretense to keep the PRC happy.
    - sneak 4y ago
      Yes, but the own country on the island of Taiwan is called the "Republic of China".
      - earthboundkid 4y ago
        Because it would be a provocation to war to change the name to Taiwan. Politicians in Taiwan have tried to change the name and always chickened out because it’s a dumb reason to trigger an invasion.
  - bpodgursky 4y ago
    This is kind of dated view [1]. The median position in Taiwan is something like "change nothing" (status quo). Essentially nobody wants reunification in any realistic manner. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-china-politics-identity-independence-unification-public-opinion-polling-1724546 https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-china-politics-identity-inde...
Overtonwindow 4y ago
This is ridiculous. Taiwan is a free and independent country. Shame on Apple.
- bell-cot 4y ago
  Perhaps. OTOH, my experience (modest n) is that a fairly large percentage of people are happy to say "Shame on Apple" for such things. Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there. Talk was cheap long before "Performative Activism" had its own Wikipedia page.
  - BitwiseFool 4y ago
    >" Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there." Personally, I make a sincere effort to buy products that aren't made in China. I've been doing this for years but unfortunately avoiding things made in China is surprisingly difficult. When I end up buying products made in China, it isn't because of a lack of conviction, it is because there was no alternative I could find.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    But how can I live without their 1% better touch pad and build quality?
  - hunterb123 4y ago
    So OP can't shame Apple for this moral behavior because others buy Apple's product? Would you apply that same standard and does it hold up to other scenarios? If people were buying textile products from the slave trade, would you say "perhaps" when other (or the same) people shamed those industries for supporting slave labor? If people were buying nuts and fruit from exploited migrant workers, would you still be able to shame the industries for better conditions or to hire minimal wage workers? If people were buying cobalt or lithium mined from child slaves would you be able to shame those industries into sourcing minerals in a more humane way even though people buy EVs? Or because people bought those products those companies/industries have immunity from criticism? You cannot avoid products made in China because of the current status quo for the same reasons you couldn't avoid textiles made with slave cotton. That doesn't mean you can't advocate change to the status quo.
przemub 4y ago
Trade is really a matter for the government, and the US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy. This just reflects the official policy, and having the companies pick this fight instead of the country is hypocritical.
- chmod600 4y ago
  There's some nuance here. We have free speech in the US. Freedom means choice, so there's still an obligation to act morally. China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. For instance, see how China manipulated the NBA and Activision Blizzard during the Hong Kong protests.
  - kshacker 4y ago
    As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? We make decisions to curtail free speech everyday so how's this different?
    - spookthesunset 4y ago
      I’m sure they could and I bet some do. How that maps into sales is a different story.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      I'm not American, so I may be missing some details, but is that actually not allowed? Or is it rather the case that some people may not like that, so companies try to avoid upsetting some customers?
      - garettmd 4y ago
        Yes, that is totally allowed. It is trivial to find products with the confederate flag printed on them.
      - kshacker 4y ago
nhanhi 4y ago
https://archive.ph/mZaR9 https://archive.ph/mZaR9
BiteCode_dev 4y ago
I have a friend working for a company whose biggest clients are in the Emirates. One of said client is the government, and it is asking them to buy some very specific equipment, knowing fully well this equipment is only sold in Israel. However, the Emirates cannot trade with Israel, and refuse to pay for any equipment labelled as coming from this country. Calling one of the officials, they asked for a solution. They told them to ship everything first to the UK. There, they should unpack every single object, and package them again with different country labels. Once the box has passed custom, nobody will raise the topic about the equipment origin. And so this is what they do.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > the Emirates cannot trade with Israel Is "cannot" really accurate? Isn't it more like they voluntarily chose not to do so?
  - ericbarrett 4y ago
    I read that as shorthand for "Emirates-based entities cannot..."
  - kps 4y ago
    Used to. Israel and UAE normalized relations in 2020 and signed a free trade deal this spring.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      Sure. My point is just that the UAE could have done that whenever they wanted; nobody was ever forcing them to not trade with Israel.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - avh02 4y ago
        I'm not sure that, at least historically, that would be looked upon amicably by their neighbouring countries or populations. That has changed over time though which has allowed this to happen.
BudaDude 4y ago
This should honestly be picked up by a larger news organization. If the US is serious about protecting Taiwan and bringing more chips to the US, Apple should be shamed for choosing Chinese profits. Imagine if Apple told Ukraine employees to label Russia on their badges.
- ericmay 4y ago
  Well, an alternative interpretation would be that Apple (like much of the world) is in a no-win situation because an assumption that they had (like much of the world) was that investment, fair trade, and bringing China into the established international organizations would result in liberalization (within reason) of China and that they'd be a full partner in global stability. The grand bargain. But instead the CCP rejected that and undermined global good will, and now the prior assumptions are no longer valid and so it will take a long time to decouple. Of course, nobody knows if Apple (and other companies) have that intention, but it's a reasonable counter-balance to the interpretation that they are "choosing Chinese profits". And basically everyone here is choosing cheaper Chinese goods so we're all complicit too.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > And basically everyone here is choosing cheaper Chinese goods so we're all complicit too. I don't buy Chinese goods just because they're cheaper. I only do so when there's no choice to buy the same kind of product from anywhere else. For example, try to find a power bank made somewhere other than China.
    - ericmay 4y ago
      Sooo I'd just say I'm not really "never buy anything made in China", my comment was more geared toward if you're going to criticize Apple for making things in China, ostensibly for political reasons, that doesn't excuse your own buying of things made in China, particularly when you have options (power banks notwithstanding).
      - 4y ago
leephillips 4y ago
What’s wrong with the original title? The re-written title here makes no grammatical sense and misrepresents the story.
- lucasjans 4y ago
  Agreed. This new title strikes me as washing away the true meaning of what's happening. There's no mention of Taiwan, which is is specifically related to. Who can rewrite titles on hackernews? Can we get an explanation who made the change and why?
galleywest200 4y ago
It looks to me that this is only shipments from Taiwan to China > Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations after a recent visit by senior U.S. lawmaker Nancy Pelosi to Taipei stoked fears of rising trade barriers. Am I missing something? I do not see a requirement that all package from Taiwan say they are from China.
- SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
  You're missing the biggest practical source of fake news: people are absolutely determined to comment on articles after reading only the headline, and headlines optimize for attention-grabbing rather than informativeness. You're completely right about what actually happened here, but the majority of people who see this while it's on the front page are going to walk away confident that Apple did some much more problematic thing.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    I think most of us are here to enjoy the irony of a "progressive" company laying down idly while China treats them like a lapdog.
president 4y ago
Fiduciary responsibility over moral responsibility is what killed America
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
They should make their chips at CSMC instead of TSMC then.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  "Introducing the Apple M3, the first PC chip made on China's 28nm low-yield node!"
dhx 4y ago
I wonder what Apple would now list if updating their FY20 supplier list[1] which simply states "Taiwan" for manufacturing locations for many of their suppliers. Some of the suppliers in the list[1] operate manufacturing facilities in both mainland China and Taiwan, and their websites refer to a combination of "China", "Taiwan" and "R.O.C.". I do wonder how difficult it would be for these companies to deal with both governments at the same time! For example, the visa policies of each government towards each other appear to be very restrictive[2][3]. [1] https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supplier-List.pdf https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supp... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Taiwan#Chinese_travelers_domiciled_in_Mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Taiwan#Chinese_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_mainland_China#Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_mainland_China#...
TheChaplain 4y ago
Doesn't surprise me. Money talks louder than sovereignty of some state. :(
FirstLvR 4y ago
I HATE the fact technology has to be influenced so much by politics. The only reason we are not travel the stars by now is our own fault.
- BudaDude 4y ago
  Agreed. It's sad that we as species just can't get it right when it comes to getting along with each-other.
- nicce 4y ago
  U.S. made nuclear submarines are really interesting from that point of view. We had technology in 1960s to make reactors which need to be refilled once per 15-20 years without significant incidents. But because of the fear of misuse and technological theft, we have energy crisis.
- msabalau 4y ago
  We don't have interstellar travel because Apple's suppliers have to meet labeling requirements? But yes, there are nice things that the money that goes to defense budgets could be spent on, if there weren't authoritarian leaders making irredentist threats against democracies.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    If the trillions that was spent on defence was spent on a space station, there is an argument to be made.
alexnewman 4y ago
But i thought 1 china :). Seriously was this an issue, of people mismarking components?
NhanH 4y ago
Officially, Taiwan agree to the “One China” stance. They even agree in the 1992 consensus that RoC and PRC does not agree who is the legitimate government of both mainland China and Taiwan islands, but the One China stance itself is not something in dispute. The constitution of Taiwan claims sovereignty over mainland China, although they added an amendment to differentiate “free area” citizens (Taiwanese) and citizens under control of the “rebellions” (I don’t know if they removed the specific wording yet). You could argue that Taiwan have to agree to One China by force, as the PRC has made it very clear that the PLA (People’s liberation Army) is invading if Taiwan abandon the stance. With that in mind, Taiwan and China situation is really similar to a civil war, Taiwan is just a secessionist. And until the situation is resolved, there is nothing wrong with label it “Taiwan, China”
- eating555 4y ago
  Current government doesn't agree on the 1992 consensus. The agreement on "One China" doesn't exist. Discalaimer: I live here.
- bnchrch 4y ago
  As someone who has spent a significant amount of time living in Taiwan. These facts grossly do not represent the reality of today. In minimizing Taiwan sovereignty you hurt a whole nation of people only to benefit a terrible regime saving face. Taiwan is its own country.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    Taiwan has a unique political arrangement but they view themselves as China, not as a separate country.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      This is getting less true every day as the old die out and the new are born.
- mmis1000 4y ago
TheMagicHorsey 4y ago
It will be painful. It will cause huge economic disruption. There will be a fall in living standards and severe inflation. But, it's time for US companies to pull out of China. The moral imperative to help China rise out of poverty through trade is done. They are no longer a poor country. Now we are compromising our values for something stupid ... for cheaper iPhones. Long term our Grandchildren will all be under the boots of the CPC if we don't take the pain now. I'm not suggesting we war with China. I'm suggesting we remove their leverage from our economies. As long as EU and America need Chinese goods to subsidize their massively irresponsible fiscal policies, Chinese dictators will have leverage over Western people. You have to sacrifice material well-being for freedom at the right time, or you will have neither in a generation.
- sam36 4y ago
  I've thought this for the last 10+ years or so. I even tried to not buy anything that was "made in china" for many years. I'm so amazed that people were fine with the recent higher gas prices because it would be helping the war in Ukraine. But yet no one wants to end trade with china because it would rise the costs of goods. Just 40 years ago there was literally nothing coming from china. They flood our markets with cheap crap that is made by burning coal, nobody cares that the end product breaks in mere days or weeks because you can just "buy another one". They've ruined the entire aftermarket parts industry for cars as almost every replacement part you buy at autozone is a chinese knockoff that will leave you stranded on the side of the road (my family runs an auto shop, the parts reliability issues are insane while autozone stock goes to the moon). And then the main issue is all this cheapness is possible because workers are paid pennies a day and take meth so they can work 15 hour days doing tedious hand assembly because the person labor is cheaper than using a machine to automate. And now our media is flooded with news bites about how oppressive and racist america is while china gets away with literal slavery and everyone there believes all non-chinese are inferior. Screw these people and their government.
- bamboozled 4y ago
  We need to fix the systems that allowed and made this decision in the first place or another stupid one will follow. In some ways, and I know this will be unpopular, but is it free market capitalism that enabled the CCP to rise to such power? ie "You're freedom to choose cheap shit"? I'm certainly not arguing for communism ourselves, but I mean, China didn't force us to move manufacturing there, won't it just happen again ?
yuubi 4y ago
i recently got an electronic product that said 中國 instead of 中国 on the label (traditional vs simplified characters). i wonder if this was meant as a subtle indication that it was from traditional-character land.
- ksec 4y ago
  That is nice :)
ngcc_hk 4y ago
Taiwan one day has to be strong enough just continue to label Taiwan. Tbh if labelled as china does it subject to china embargo, tax, …
cheaprentalyeti 4y ago
Obviously the tariffs on the goods Apple imports from China and from "China" aren't high enough.
TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago
People seem to be overinflating the hell out of this. > Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations Duh! it's to China! You're just going to piss off your contract manufacturers who have government officials overlooking their supply.
- amelius 4y ago
  But they have to lie in order to comply. It's not just about following stupid rules.
  - eevilspock 4y ago
    Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like mainland China, even still claims Tibet as its territory. They do mainland China one better, they claim Mongolia as well. See supporting references in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560
    - amelius 4y ago
      Yes, it's a lie as CCP has had no meaningful governmental role in Taiwan so far.
      - zozbot234 4y ago
        So what? That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. Taipei's "One China" position merely acknowledges this fact, without committing to any stance that the CCP is the legitimate government of any country.
        CogitoCogito 4y ago
        > That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. So the US is English?
jmyeet 4y ago
This is unsurprising. The reality is that the US, China and even much of Taiwan actually or effectively supports the One CHina policy. It would be suicide for China to invade Taiwan. The economic damage this would do to China is immense. China may well collapse. Aside from that, it's not that easy either. China may well have a much larger military but a sea crossing is no easy feat. Look at Britain. It hasn't been successfully invaded by sea in almost 1000 years (1066 being th elast time). On a clear day you can see the white cliffs of Dover from Calais (~17 miles across the English Channel) yet the might of Nazi Germany could never cross it. Even though the US has legislation to protect Taiwan, if push came to shove, the US simply wouldn't trigger a direct war between nuclear powers in the sam eway that the US isn't getting directly involved in Ukraine. And much of Taiwan is happy with the situation as is. Pushing independence is going to seriously rock the boat. So everyone is happy with the situation of China having an official policy that Taiwan is part of China without anything actually changing including China. I'm personally not a fan of Western companies being influenced by the CCP dangling the carrot of access to the Chinese market when it's a mirage. China will never allow a Western company to dominate the Chinese market. Yet we have Hollywood, for example, kowtowing to China. China really took an L (IMHO) over the Pelosi visit. She's not the first House Speaker to visit (Newt Ginrich being the last ~25 years ago). By taking a public position, China really gave the US no choice but to proceed rather than back down. It's just mishandled all the way. So we'll have symbolic things like "Made in --Taiwan--China" as retaliation.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  The PRC could blockade Taiwan rather than engaging in the enormous task of outright invasion, but you're right, the resulting economic fallout would be immense blowback to them. China's government throughout all this, regardless of Xi's rhetoric, has been engaging in slow and steady, non-disruptive actions. Saber-rattling with military exercises is one thing (there have been multiple Taiwan Strait crises already in past decades), engaging in open war would be hugely disruptive both to the international order and to the international trade that the PRC has built its rise upon.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
protomyth 4y ago
You cannot offend China if your company is a China-based manufacturing company. Tim Cook didn't make sure Apple was am America-base manufacturing company and spent a lot of Apple's money on China. Thinking that Tim Cook will not march to Xi Jinping's drum is absurd. His criticisms of American manufacturing can all be solved by Apple investing the same money. This should be a bigger story. He should be seen as someone who spent American money to build China's supply chain. [edit: gotta love the Tim Cook apologists]
sequoia 4y ago
Seems like they're just following local import/trade rules? I think the rule is bad but presumably plenty of local trade rules are stupid. One doesn't get to pick and choose which to follow. I guess the implication is that going along with China's stance on Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this.
- nomel 4y ago
  > Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this. And we won't see it from any big name company, since nearly everything is manufactured, in part or whole, in China.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    I bought some tools at Harbor Freight recently that were stamped "Made in Taiwan"
    - gumby 4y ago
      They presumably were shipped from Taiwan To the US where these rules do not apply. This rule only applies to goods manufactured in Taiwan and shipped to China.
    - nomel 4y ago
      China is Taiwans largest trade partner. For example, 33% of its steel is from China (Taiwan being in the top 7 steel importer, in the world). With Harbor Freight being the destination, it's not unlikely that 90% of the materials in those tools are from China, including a good majority of the standard cogs, switches, and doo-das within.
  - 1-6 4y ago
    Moreover it’s about sales in China. If Apple refuses to follow China’s rules, they’ll suffer consequences in sales.
sys_64738 4y ago
This all is highlighting the dangers to public companies about political positions potentially destabilizing the business. Part of the responsibility of C level execs is to shield the shareholders from such uncertainty. AAPL should not be dependent on any single region for product and the political climate & COVID restrictions are prime examples why businesses now need to dramatically shift their supply chain dependencies to dilute the risk.
sxpnsxpn 4y ago

408 points by lucasjans 4y ago

bamboozled 4y ago

I'm done with Apple.

amelius 4y ago

Why not put "US" on the shipments instead, as it's closer to the truth?

axus 4y ago
If Trump had exchanged Taiwan for Puerto Rico, we could, but missed opportunity.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  yeahhh I'm going to need Puerto Rico's parallel tax structure for as long as possible so if we could not alter their territorial status and also keep Congress split on everything that would be greeaaaaat just keep posting "red waaaave" on your instagram account and "blue waaaave" on your twitter account so that everyone stays in their respective echo chamber, I think at least till 2025 would be good for me, I'll probably have cleared all my US earnings from taxes and left (w/ a different excuse) by then
  - trebbble 4y ago
    Clicks the "learn more" button
    - yieldcrv 4y ago
      So US citizens have to pretty much just ignore the entire offshore industry for legal tax avoidance, but fortunately the US offers US citizens many ways to not have a tax bill. Some US territories have a parallel tax system that isn't underneath the Federal Government, whereas states are under the federal government, so a resident of a state has to pay state taxes as well as federal taxes. Although there are "categories" of types of territories, these categories are pretty much made up on the spot and each territory is its own separate case, as the US only has 5 inhabited territories all with unique tax and citizenship conditions. Long story short, Puerto Rico has a tax system that is treated like being a foreign country, but checks the box for total Federal US tax compliance. Under Puerto Rico's "Act 60", which mainland transplants to Puerto Rico can apply for, many transactions are taxed at zero percent, most importantly capital gains (for trades initiated while on the island and sold on the island, pro-rata based on time for longer held positions), while "PR sourced income" is taxed at 5%, or an up-to-4% corporate tax rate (so the same activity done through a corporation is taxed lower, and the dividends are tax free, and the sales of shares are tax free) So if you want to clear all your money in the eyes of the Federal government, then living a year in PR to execute or finish a specific plan is good. Congress has a little control over PR, but its more beneficial and easier to perpetuate division in Congress, at least at this class level, than pretend to have some other trendy cause that your friends want you to espouse. and finally I made a reference to renouncing citizenship. If you leave "for tax purposes" then there exit taxes. So the goal is to keep more of your money at your own discretion, and then leave for any reason that isn't "tax purposes".

lucasjans 4y ago

This company pretends it has the moral high ground, but like most of corporate America, they always have an eye on Chinese profits. America's future is at stake and we won't wake up until it's too late.

elil17 4y ago
Does it matter what Apple does? I would think that reading "Made in Chinese Tiapei" only serves as a reminder of China's policy.
- mountainb 4y ago
  Apple will knuckle under in about 3 seconds when the war starts and do whatever the US government asks them to do.
  - shoulderfake 4y ago
  - sneak 4y ago
    100% of Apple's important chips depend on Taiwan continuing to be Taiwan (and TSMC continuing to be TSMC). ~100% of Apple's manufacturing depends on China continuing to permit hundreds of thousands of Chinese nationals in Chinese factories (Foxconn's plants in Zhengzhou and elsewhere) building Apple products. I'm not sure what you mean by "knuckle under" in this context, but Apple is, today, wholly dependent upon Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturing (for chips, and assembly, respectively). If there is a war between China and Taiwan, or China and the US, Apple stands to lose the most of any single organization, I think.
    - mountainb 4y ago
      Yes, they are dependent on China and Taiwan, but they will knuckle under to the point to which the company is seriously disrupted if not destroyed once the war starts. I think it behooves everyone at Apple to prepare for the war and to figure out likely alternatives, and to also assume that the usual grey market way of getting around it will be anticipated by the federal government, and under war conditions the federal government may have a harsher point of view on it than they usually would with country of origin manipulation. Even if the US wins a war over Taiwan, it'd probably take a long time to resolve, and trade would be disrupted for long enough that nothing is getting off the island until peace is re-established. Right now, if nothing changes with the US-China trajectory, war is coming. If the trajectory changes, that might change.

earthboundkid 4y ago

Why is this interesting? Taiwan has to compete in the Olympics as Chinese Taipei or whatever. Yeah, any place that China can influence, it makes Taiwan call itself China.

Pulcinella 4y ago
Taiwan calls itself China. The official name is literally the Republic of China. Both China and Taiwan agree that there is just one China, but disagree about what formal unification would or should look like. Edit: The USA also agrees that there is one China, at least officially, though it’s not like the US doesn’t like to change its mind frequently. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué
- warning26 4y ago
  Everyone knows Taiwan is its own country, the US et all merely engage in the "one china" pretense to keep the PRC happy.
  - sneak 4y ago
    Yes, but the own country on the island of Taiwan is called the "Republic of China".
    - earthboundkid 4y ago
      Because it would be a provocation to war to change the name to Taiwan. Politicians in Taiwan have tried to change the name and always chickened out because it’s a dumb reason to trigger an invasion.
- bpodgursky 4y ago
  This is kind of dated view [1]. The median position in Taiwan is something like "change nothing" (status quo). Essentially nobody wants reunification in any realistic manner. [1] https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-china-politics-identity-independence-unification-public-opinion-polling-1724546 https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-china-politics-identity-inde...

Overtonwindow 4y ago

This is ridiculous. Taiwan is a free and independent country. Shame on Apple.

bell-cot 4y ago
Perhaps. OTOH, my experience (modest n) is that a fairly large percentage of people are happy to say "Shame on Apple" for such things. Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there. Talk was cheap long before "Performative Activism" had its own Wikipedia page.
- BitwiseFool 4y ago
  >" Vs. a near-zero percentage are actually willing to avoid buying products made in (mainland) China, or with major components made there." Personally, I make a sincere effort to buy products that aren't made in China. I've been doing this for years but unfortunately avoiding things made in China is surprisingly difficult. When I end up buying products made in China, it isn't because of a lack of conviction, it is because there was no alternative I could find.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  But how can I live without their 1% better touch pad and build quality?
- hunterb123 4y ago
  So OP can't shame Apple for this moral behavior because others buy Apple's product? Would you apply that same standard and does it hold up to other scenarios? If people were buying textile products from the slave trade, would you say "perhaps" when other (or the same) people shamed those industries for supporting slave labor? If people were buying nuts and fruit from exploited migrant workers, would you still be able to shame the industries for better conditions or to hire minimal wage workers? If people were buying cobalt or lithium mined from child slaves would you be able to shame those industries into sourcing minerals in a more humane way even though people buy EVs? Or because people bought those products those companies/industries have immunity from criticism? You cannot avoid products made in China because of the current status quo for the same reasons you couldn't avoid textiles made with slave cotton. That doesn't mean you can't advocate change to the status quo.

przemub 4y ago

Trade is really a matter for the government, and the US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy. This just reflects the official policy, and having the companies pick this fight instead of the country is hypocritical.

chmod600 4y ago
There's some nuance here. We have free speech in the US. Freedom means choice, so there's still an obligation to act morally. China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. For instance, see how China manipulated the NBA and Activision Blizzard during the Hong Kong protests.
- kshacker 4y ago
  As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? We make decisions to curtail free speech everyday so how's this different?
  - spookthesunset 4y ago
    I’m sure they could and I bet some do. How that maps into sales is a different story.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    I'm not American, so I may be missing some details, but is that actually not allowed? Or is it rather the case that some people may not like that, so companies try to avoid upsetting some customers?
    - garettmd 4y ago
      Yes, that is totally allowed. It is trivial to find products with the confederate flag printed on them.
    - kshacker 4y ago

nhanhi 4y ago

https://archive.ph/mZaR9 https://archive.ph/mZaR9

BiteCode_dev 4y ago

I have a friend working for a company whose biggest clients are in the Emirates. One of said client is the government, and it is asking them to buy some very specific equipment, knowing fully well this equipment is only sold in Israel. However, the Emirates cannot trade with Israel, and refuse to pay for any equipment labelled as coming from this country. Calling one of the officials, they asked for a solution. They told them to ship everything first to the UK. There, they should unpack every single object, and package them again with different country labels. Once the box has passed custom, nobody will raise the topic about the equipment origin. And so this is what they do.

josephcsible 4y ago
> the Emirates cannot trade with Israel Is "cannot" really accurate? Isn't it more like they voluntarily chose not to do so?
- ericbarrett 4y ago
  I read that as shorthand for "Emirates-based entities cannot..."
- kps 4y ago
  Used to. Israel and UAE normalized relations in 2020 and signed a free trade deal this spring.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    Sure. My point is just that the UAE could have done that whenever they wanted; nobody was ever forcing them to not trade with Israel.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - avh02 4y ago
      I'm not sure that, at least historically, that would be looked upon amicably by their neighbouring countries or populations. That has changed over time though which has allowed this to happen.

BudaDude 4y ago

This should honestly be picked up by a larger news organization. If the US is serious about protecting Taiwan and bringing more chips to the US, Apple should be shamed for choosing Chinese profits. Imagine if Apple told Ukraine employees to label Russia on their badges.

ericmay 4y ago
Well, an alternative interpretation would be that Apple (like much of the world) is in a no-win situation because an assumption that they had (like much of the world) was that investment, fair trade, and bringing China into the established international organizations would result in liberalization (within reason) of China and that they'd be a full partner in global stability. The grand bargain. But instead the CCP rejected that and undermined global good will, and now the prior assumptions are no longer valid and so it will take a long time to decouple. Of course, nobody knows if Apple (and other companies) have that intention, but it's a reasonable counter-balance to the interpretation that they are "choosing Chinese profits". And basically everyone here is choosing cheaper Chinese goods so we're all complicit too.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > And basically everyone here is choosing cheaper Chinese goods so we're all complicit too. I don't buy Chinese goods just because they're cheaper. I only do so when there's no choice to buy the same kind of product from anywhere else. For example, try to find a power bank made somewhere other than China.
  - ericmay 4y ago
    Sooo I'd just say I'm not really "never buy anything made in China", my comment was more geared toward if you're going to criticize Apple for making things in China, ostensibly for political reasons, that doesn't excuse your own buying of things made in China, particularly when you have options (power banks notwithstanding).
    - 4y ago

leephillips 4y ago

What’s wrong with the original title? The re-written title here makes no grammatical sense and misrepresents the story.

lucasjans 4y ago
Agreed. This new title strikes me as washing away the true meaning of what's happening. There's no mention of Taiwan, which is is specifically related to. Who can rewrite titles on hackernews? Can we get an explanation who made the change and why?

galleywest200 4y ago

It looks to me that this is only shipments from Taiwan to China > Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations after a recent visit by senior U.S. lawmaker Nancy Pelosi to Taipei stoked fears of rising trade barriers. Am I missing something? I do not see a requirement that all package from Taiwan say they are from China.

SpicyLemonZest 4y ago
You're missing the biggest practical source of fake news: people are absolutely determined to comment on articles after reading only the headline, and headlines optimize for attention-grabbing rather than informativeness. You're completely right about what actually happened here, but the majority of people who see this while it's on the front page are going to walk away confident that Apple did some much more problematic thing.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  I think most of us are here to enjoy the irony of a "progressive" company laying down idly while China treats them like a lapdog.

president 4y ago

Fiduciary responsibility over moral responsibility is what killed America

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

They should make their chips at CSMC instead of TSMC then.

smoldesu 4y ago
"Introducing the Apple M3, the first PC chip made on China's 28nm low-yield node!"

dhx 4y ago

I wonder what Apple would now list if updating their FY20 supplier list[1] which simply states "Taiwan" for manufacturing locations for many of their suppliers. Some of the suppliers in the list[1] operate manufacturing facilities in both mainland China and Taiwan, and their websites refer to a combination of "China", "Taiwan" and "R.O.C.". I do wonder how difficult it would be for these companies to deal with both governments at the same time! For example, the visa policies of each government towards each other appear to be very restrictive[2][3]. [1] https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supplier-List.pdf https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/pdf/Apple-Supp... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Taiwan#Chinese_travelers_domiciled_in_Mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_Taiwan#Chinese_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_mainland_China#Taiwan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_mainland_China#...

TheChaplain 4y ago

Doesn't surprise me. Money talks louder than sovereignty of some state. :(

FirstLvR 4y ago

I HATE the fact technology has to be influenced so much by politics. The only reason we are not travel the stars by now is our own fault.

BudaDude 4y ago
Agreed. It's sad that we as species just can't get it right when it comes to getting along with each-other.
nicce 4y ago
U.S. made nuclear submarines are really interesting from that point of view. We had technology in 1960s to make reactors which need to be refilled once per 15-20 years without significant incidents. But because of the fear of misuse and technological theft, we have energy crisis.
msabalau 4y ago
We don't have interstellar travel because Apple's suppliers have to meet labeling requirements? But yes, there are nice things that the money that goes to defense budgets could be spent on, if there weren't authoritarian leaders making irredentist threats against democracies.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  If the trillions that was spent on defence was spent on a space station, there is an argument to be made.

alexnewman 4y ago

But i thought 1 china :). Seriously was this an issue, of people mismarking components?

NhanH 4y ago

Officially, Taiwan agree to the “One China” stance. They even agree in the 1992 consensus that RoC and PRC does not agree who is the legitimate government of both mainland China and Taiwan islands, but the One China stance itself is not something in dispute. The constitution of Taiwan claims sovereignty over mainland China, although they added an amendment to differentiate “free area” citizens (Taiwanese) and citizens under control of the “rebellions” (I don’t know if they removed the specific wording yet). You could argue that Taiwan have to agree to One China by force, as the PRC has made it very clear that the PLA (People’s liberation Army) is invading if Taiwan abandon the stance. With that in mind, Taiwan and China situation is really similar to a civil war, Taiwan is just a secessionist. And until the situation is resolved, there is nothing wrong with label it “Taiwan, China”

eating555 4y ago
Current government doesn't agree on the 1992 consensus. The agreement on "One China" doesn't exist. Discalaimer: I live here.
bnchrch 4y ago
As someone who has spent a significant amount of time living in Taiwan. These facts grossly do not represent the reality of today. In minimizing Taiwan sovereignty you hurt a whole nation of people only to benefit a terrible regime saving face. Taiwan is its own country.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  Taiwan has a unique political arrangement but they view themselves as China, not as a separate country.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    This is getting less true every day as the old die out and the new are born.
mmis1000 4y ago

TheMagicHorsey 4y ago

It will be painful. It will cause huge economic disruption. There will be a fall in living standards and severe inflation. But, it's time for US companies to pull out of China. The moral imperative to help China rise out of poverty through trade is done. They are no longer a poor country. Now we are compromising our values for something stupid ... for cheaper iPhones. Long term our Grandchildren will all be under the boots of the CPC if we don't take the pain now. I'm not suggesting we war with China. I'm suggesting we remove their leverage from our economies. As long as EU and America need Chinese goods to subsidize their massively irresponsible fiscal policies, Chinese dictators will have leverage over Western people. You have to sacrifice material well-being for freedom at the right time, or you will have neither in a generation.

sam36 4y ago
I've thought this for the last 10+ years or so. I even tried to not buy anything that was "made in china" for many years. I'm so amazed that people were fine with the recent higher gas prices because it would be helping the war in Ukraine. But yet no one wants to end trade with china because it would rise the costs of goods. Just 40 years ago there was literally nothing coming from china. They flood our markets with cheap crap that is made by burning coal, nobody cares that the end product breaks in mere days or weeks because you can just "buy another one". They've ruined the entire aftermarket parts industry for cars as almost every replacement part you buy at autozone is a chinese knockoff that will leave you stranded on the side of the road (my family runs an auto shop, the parts reliability issues are insane while autozone stock goes to the moon). And then the main issue is all this cheapness is possible because workers are paid pennies a day and take meth so they can work 15 hour days doing tedious hand assembly because the person labor is cheaper than using a machine to automate. And now our media is flooded with news bites about how oppressive and racist america is while china gets away with literal slavery and everyone there believes all non-chinese are inferior. Screw these people and their government.
bamboozled 4y ago
We need to fix the systems that allowed and made this decision in the first place or another stupid one will follow. In some ways, and I know this will be unpopular, but is it free market capitalism that enabled the CCP to rise to such power? ie "You're freedom to choose cheap shit"? I'm certainly not arguing for communism ourselves, but I mean, China didn't force us to move manufacturing there, won't it just happen again ?

yuubi 4y ago

i recently got an electronic product that said 中國 instead of 中国 on the label (traditional vs simplified characters). i wonder if this was meant as a subtle indication that it was from traditional-character land.

ksec 4y ago
That is nice :)

ngcc_hk 4y ago

Taiwan one day has to be strong enough just continue to label Taiwan. Tbh if labelled as china does it subject to china embargo, tax, …

cheaprentalyeti 4y ago

Obviously the tariffs on the goods Apple imports from China and from "China" aren't high enough.

TrapLord_Rhodo 4y ago

People seem to be overinflating the hell out of this. > Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations Duh! it's to China! You're just going to piss off your contract manufacturers who have government officials overlooking their supply.

amelius 4y ago
But they have to lie in order to comply. It's not just about following stupid rules.
- eevilspock 4y ago
  Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like mainland China, even still claims Tibet as its territory. They do mainland China one better, they claim Mongolia as well. See supporting references in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560
  - amelius 4y ago
    Yes, it's a lie as CCP has had no meaningful governmental role in Taiwan so far.
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      So what? That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. Taipei's "One China" position merely acknowledges this fact, without committing to any stance that the CCP is the legitimate government of any country.
      - CogitoCogito 4y ago
        > That doesn't change the fact that, practically, Taiwan is Chinese. The language and writing system, if nothing else, kinda give it away. So the US is English?

jmyeet 4y ago

This is unsurprising. The reality is that the US, China and even much of Taiwan actually or effectively supports the One CHina policy. It would be suicide for China to invade Taiwan. The economic damage this would do to China is immense. China may well collapse. Aside from that, it's not that easy either. China may well have a much larger military but a sea crossing is no easy feat. Look at Britain. It hasn't been successfully invaded by sea in almost 1000 years (1066 being th elast time). On a clear day you can see the white cliffs of Dover from Calais (~17 miles across the English Channel) yet the might of Nazi Germany could never cross it. Even though the US has legislation to protect Taiwan, if push came to shove, the US simply wouldn't trigger a direct war between nuclear powers in the sam eway that the US isn't getting directly involved in Ukraine. And much of Taiwan is happy with the situation as is. Pushing independence is going to seriously rock the boat. So everyone is happy with the situation of China having an official policy that Taiwan is part of China without anything actually changing including China. I'm personally not a fan of Western companies being influenced by the CCP dangling the carrot of access to the Chinese market when it's a mirage. China will never allow a Western company to dominate the Chinese market. Yet we have Hollywood, for example, kowtowing to China. China really took an L (IMHO) over the Pelosi visit. She's not the first House Speaker to visit (Newt Ginrich being the last ~25 years ago). By taking a public position, China really gave the US no choice but to proceed rather than back down. It's just mishandled all the way. So we'll have symbolic things like "Made in --Taiwan--China" as retaliation.

Apocryphon 4y ago
The PRC could blockade Taiwan rather than engaging in the enormous task of outright invasion, but you're right, the resulting economic fallout would be immense blowback to them. China's government throughout all this, regardless of Xi's rhetoric, has been engaging in slow and steady, non-disruptive actions. Saber-rattling with military exercises is one thing (there have been multiple Taiwan Strait crises already in past decades), engaging in open war would be hugely disruptive both to the international order and to the international trade that the PRC has built its rise upon.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

protomyth 4y ago

You cannot offend China if your company is a China-based manufacturing company. Tim Cook didn't make sure Apple was am America-base manufacturing company and spent a lot of Apple's money on China. Thinking that Tim Cook will not march to Xi Jinping's drum is absurd. His criticisms of American manufacturing can all be solved by Apple investing the same money. This should be a bigger story. He should be seen as someone who spent American money to build China's supply chain. [edit: gotta love the Tim Cook apologists]

sequoia 4y ago

Seems like they're just following local import/trade rules? I think the rule is bad but presumably plenty of local trade rules are stupid. One doesn't get to pick and choose which to follow. I guess the implication is that going along with China's stance on Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this.

nomel 4y ago
> Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this. And we won't see it from any big name company, since nearly everything is manufactured, in part or whole, in China.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  I bought some tools at Harbor Freight recently that were stamped "Made in Taiwan"
  - gumby 4y ago
    They presumably were shipped from Taiwan To the US where these rules do not apply. This rule only applies to goods manufactured in Taiwan and shipped to China.
  - nomel 4y ago
    China is Taiwans largest trade partner. For example, 33% of its steel is from China (Taiwan being in the top 7 steel importer, in the world). With Harbor Freight being the destination, it's not unlikely that 90% of the materials in those tools are from China, including a good majority of the standard cogs, switches, and doo-das within.
- 1-6 4y ago
  Moreover it’s about sales in China. If Apple refuses to follow China’s rules, they’ll suffer consequences in sales.

sys_64738 4y ago

This all is highlighting the dangers to public companies about political positions potentially destabilizing the business. Part of the responsibility of C level execs is to shield the shareholders from such uncertainty. AAPL should not be dependent on any single region for product and the political climate & COVID restrictions are prime examples why businesses now need to dramatically shift their supply chain dependencies to dilute the risk.

sxpnsxpn 4y ago