22 ms·

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty muc

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I had to somehow do a bunch of random things to look competitive on paper.

devwastaken 5y ago
Using that as a metric for society is exactly why we have out of control poverty, drug abuse, and homelessness. If you were able to get good grades in school it wasn't because of your efforts, as a child and teen your brain is largely programmed by the community and environment you grow in. There are no gifted children, only those with educated parents that started early. This is becoming an ever more common theme, especially of kids with teachers for parents whom make too little yet know the systems enough to know exactly how to get their kid past the trite systems created for class warfare. The solution is to defund universities and stop this elitist nonsense. Just like COVID has shown we don't need to show up to the office, we don't need universities either. We are a better society without their control and political agendas. There is little of value that isn't better done by a YouTube video today.
- wh313 5y ago
  Could you elaborate on these points you made? > The solution is to defund universities and stop this elitist nonsense. We are a better society without their control and political agendas. As someone currently doing a PhD, I definitely agree that there is some elitism in academia, and that school administration usually sucks. However, I also love the work I do, which I couldn't really do anywhere else, and the community of students and faculty, which is pretty unique. What makes you condemn the institution as a whole? > There is little of value that isn't better done by a YouTube video today. As someone who enjoyed the liberal arts education portion of their education, it seems like we don't have the same way of defining "value." Could you describe how you measure if something has value?
team_bacon 5y ago
Bingo. I came from an economically challenged background with a very chaotic family life. Grades were impossible to keep up let alone extra curricular activities. Tests were how I was able to demonstrate my academic potential. I gamed the SAT by "studying". It took an SAT book checked out from the library and a few hours of practice. The SAT is not particularly hard for a bright student of any background that puts some effort into it. And these days there are more free resources available than ever before. I get the feeling policies to remove standardized tests are set by those who have no idea what real intelligence and achievement is.
newswasboring 5y ago
I didn't see your point in the beginning, but as I read this thread I realized how much pressure we are putting on these kids. Even for kids whos parents can afford the extra curricular stuff, it just seems bonkers to me how much they have to do to "stand out". I don't know where I am going with this, but just wanted to say this is too much pressure.
- BowBun 5y ago
  I agree, and I think it's yet another symptom of the hypercapitalist society we live in. Kids are bombarded with media telling them that success is when you get rich and famous, or when you reach the absolute top of your field. Then again, at school, we're drilled with the lies that college is required and that you need to be in x percentile to get into x school to get x job. Finally, once we get into the workforce, we all judge each other based on our initial salaries, positions, and career trajectories. As long as there is unequal distribution of resources, anyone with an opportunity to further cement their family's socioeconomic status by taking advantage of the system will tend to do so. We need to be able to offer houses, leisure, and fulfillment to everyone from hyper-privileged techy college grads (like a lot of us) to housekeepers, bus drivers, social workers, teachers, etc. I'm ashamed at how easy it is to do so little and 'win' in this system while so many others suffer. And there's nothing I can do with my smidge of resources to help more than a few people at a time which makes no meaningful trajectory change to the millions (billions?) that need help. Sorry for the rant.
bannedbybros 5y ago
Salgat 5y ago
I imagine that test preparation is far more accessible when you have well funded schools and parents who can cover any additional tutoring/preparation. For me the game changer was community college, it gave me a second chance at a price I could afford and with a clean slate I earned a 3.9 GPA and got into a top 10 engineering program.
sparrc 5y ago
100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
  I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live.
  - mxkopy 5y ago
    >the society in which they live. Which society? The one that has mass shootings on a regular basis but makes gun ownership a viable identity? Or the one praises love and peace while buying clothes made in sweatshops? >especially immigrants not their fault Rutesh has maidens and you don't
  - csa 5y ago
    > It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores This is very unlikely to happen for East Asians or Indians. > and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live. This “trivial” stuff is often not trivial when done well. - Sports, especially varsity athletics and Olympic sports, has social currency in elite circles. Some folks may not like the fact that this is true, but it’s foolish to deny that it’s true. In some cases, participation in sports actually develops character leadership skills. - The things some high school students are able to do as “volunteers” can blow your mind. The soft skills that these activities can develop carry over really well to the “real world”. Lots of extracurriculars are BS, but the folks who do the BS ones aren’t getting into elite schools based on those. - If I understand what you are saying, suggesting that immigrants should not need to have the skills to participate in society is mind boggling to me. Elite schools aren’t just looking to churn out brainiacs (and the real brainiacs are getting in on more brainy stuff than high SAT scores and perfect grades). They are looking to churn out people who will impact society. Honestly, some sort of impressive community involvement in the Indian community (as an example) is something that would be a strong part of an elite school application.
dangle1 5y ago
I can relate, and I appreciated the doors the PSAT and SAT opened for me. OTOH, I test higher than my actual abilities in my opinion, and that was a relatively unfair advantage the test gave me.
- jacobr1 5y ago
  What does testing higher than one's ability actually mean? I'm guessing either you think the test is an imperfect proxy for a different (more important) skill, or otherwise you have imposter syndrome.
  - 30829984 5y ago
    Not OP but I am an abnormally good "tester." It was always easy for me to see what the questions were asking for and could make a go of anything multiple choice. I'm also good at writing essays. It does not make me smart, it makes my abilities especially suited to standardized tests.
    - chii 5y ago
      Being able to infer information fast, being able to write essays well, etc, are signs of good intelligence and high cognitive capability. There's no abnormality here i can see. Your score reflects your real ability.
      - Aeolun 5y ago
        If you cannot solve the same problems given an open ended question, is it real ability? There is definitely something there, but I’m not sure I could be proud of it.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    I will say I'm of decent peer-inteligence (and the test scores put me in the top 1% or higher) but that doesn't account for other aspects of "ability". I feel my grades more accurately portrayed me as a whole but the test was accurate as to potential if that makes sense.
tomatowurst 5y ago
what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.
- csa 5y ago
  > yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism. People throw this out as though it is fact, when in reality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._President_and_Fellows_of_Harvard_College#Decision_and_appeal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions... “In October 2019, Judge Allison D. Burroughs ruled that Harvard College's admissions policies do not unduly discriminate against Asian Americans.” “In February 2020, SFFA filed an appeal in the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. The court heard oral arguments in mid-2020 and ultimately ruled in late 2020 in favor of Harvard, concluding that Judge Burroughs had not erred in her ruling and major factual findings.” Elite admissions is more than great grades and great standardized test scores. Some folks may not like the fact that this is true, but that doesn’t make it less true, and it doesn’t (necessarily) make it racist.
  - thenanyu 5y ago
    Judge Burroughs was wrong. The Supreme Court will overturn, especially given the explicit promise by (likely to be confirmed) Justice Jackson to abstain.
- MichaelApproved 5y ago
  I’d say you’ve got more straw men in that loaded question than farmers have in their field. You’re taking poorly summarized opinions and pretending that combination of opinions are held by a group of significant size.
  - tomatowurst 5y ago
runarberg 5y ago
Seriously, is there no talk about how unfair the notion of extra-curricular activities is in the US? It is one of these things that gave me a major culture shock moving into the US. Things like giving an advantage to people that have so many hours of volunteer work feels a really blatant way to give an unfair advantage to folks that are already way privileged and over represented.
- cma 5y ago
  > Does working help you get into college? >Yes! Having a job in high school can definitely look good on your college application. As long as it doesn't end up negatively impacting other key areas such as academic performance and extracurricular participation, working in high school is an excellent way to increase the strength of your application. https://admissionsight.com/will-a-high-school-job-help-or-hurt-my-college-application/ https://admissionsight.com/will-a-high-school-job-help-or-hu... It does seem pretty screwed up. I don't see how working couldn't have a negative impact on time for extracurricular activities. Or say someone wasn't even officially a worker, like providing care for elderly relatives living at home.
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    > As long as it doesn't end up negatively impacting other key areas such as academic performance and extracurricular participation lol
acchow 5y ago
Extra-curricular well-roundedness was basically added to separate the well off from the poor
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  As a general rule, I always look at more subjective measures like extra curriculars and “well-roundedness” with a huge amount of skepticism. Such subjective standards are phenomenal places to hide discrimination and favoratism.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
smrtinsert 5y ago
They literally wrote again, it's a multiple factor process. Why is there this concept "test vs no test"? No one expects meritless acceptance to anything.
wutbrodo 5y ago
May I ask on what basis you were against them? Was it just ignorance of the facts (like the canard that they just measure wealth), or did you change your opinion of something subjective?
a-dub 5y ago
it's very likely that i would have never gone to college had there not been an option to test-in. instead i got offers from several top tier institutions based on test scores, essays, work experience and the equivalent of a ged alone. as such, i'm immensely thankful that the route exists and believe that it should continue to exist as part of a variety of routes for prospective students to demonstrate their aptitude, grit and readiness for higher education. just as exams and associated scores should not discourage anyone from applying, neither should grade averages or k-12 school experiences. the application process should provide those with all manner of experiences and strengths to make cases that suit their situations best.
agar 5y ago
This thread is filled with people arguing false dichotomies: "test scores" vs. "fancy extra-curriculars" or "rich experiences" vs. "working class experiences." I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities. To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1) students who will succeed at their university, and (2) a diverse range of students to avoid a monoculture. This means they try to look at the "whole student." For some students, that means academics and test scores to show academic prowess. For others, it's working summers to pay for their college to show it's a personally meaningful step for them. For others, it's being a primary caregiver to siblings or parents while still meeting college requirements to show grit and determination. For others, it's demonstrating consistent progress in pursuing a passion (e.g., volunteering or music or art) with a trajectory that continues through college. Admission officers say they want a student body comprised of all of the above, and that's how they get the diverse range of students to create a dynamic learning environment. Some of the least interesting students are "box checkers" who have a bunch of disconnected extra-curriculars that don't show passion, direction, or a proclivity towards success. If a student defines "success" as "getting into college," then what will they do once they get there? Probably flounder. Test scores can be a useful data point towards determining collegiate success, but it certainly won't be the only one used. Nor will extra-curriculars or any other single factor. The single biggest piece of advice for any applying student: create a narrative that shows how your activities (whatever they are) demonstrate why you will be a successful student that achieves your major-related goals. Your grades, scores, work life, home life, interests, and personal experiences should all be connected to show you are thoughtful, motivated, driven, and have your shit together. Do that, and you'll have the best chance of success at most admissions offices.
- hacym 5y ago
  High level public institutions get tens of thousands of applicants. I can almost assure you that what you’re describing is a wonderland that doesn’t exist in all but the smallest schools that can take time to review applicants on the whole. Most schools can barely weed through the applicants based on standardized measures (GPA, SAT/ACT, coursework). The feel good stuff likely only shines in essays, but very little prestige is going to be given to someone that wrote about working a summer job to pay for school, even if that’s unfortunate for the student.
thedstrat 5y ago
There are intelligent people though that don't do well on standardized tests (or at least don't get top tier results). I agree that standardized testing is a good metric to get a general idea of aptitude, but I think it hugely fails in appreciating people who are able to solve 'non-standardized' problems. And those are actually the people who should be placed in top institutions
- parineum 5y ago
  > And those are actually the people who should be placed in top institutions Do you really think there's this untapped group of "non-standardized" thinkers out there who belong in the to institutions but for standardized tests? This sounds a lot like something I'd tell myself when I was 16 instead of dealing with the reality that I was just a lazy, underachieving high school student and would have made a lazy, underachieving college student. In reality, those unconventional thinkers you're talking about find a way to achieve anyway by unconventional means.
  - jounker 5y ago
    I know at least one of these people. When you give her an opportunity she hits the ball out of the park. Wherever you put her she quickly rises to the top, but she has been denied many opportunities because she doesn’t test well on standardized tests.
  - tomatowurst 5y ago
    Reflecting back on my own attitude and performance in schools, I was just an underachiever who wanted more but refusing to put in the work. Now that I am an adult I can tell you what got me into this thinking and it was because of ego and unrealistic expectations that I built for myself based on what I was told. "You have a high IQ, you are smart, you are intelligent, you don't study and you do well etc" I let it get to my head and instead of growing, instead of recognizing what I didn't know, I focused on what I knew. Pride and ego. For a while it worked so I had no reason to doubt it. But when the sheer work load got to a point where effective time management, strong and consistent work ethic were required I couldn't pull it off. its a downward spiral, you are not used to putting in effort and seeing good results. that is setting you up for failure. now? people who do well on tests, who do well in school, are completely deserving because they put in the work and patience. same with success, its not a matter of rolling dice but focus and it requires: - knowing what i dont know - effort & work Yes there are really smart people out there who could really benefit from the above but many do not like to admit it. I do and now I take the time and effort to know what I don't know. This has nothing to do with race or equity but more to do with your attitude. Yes it can be influenced by our surroundings and events but everyday we get up and make the choice to believe or not believe what we don't know and know. Having said that if you realize you are unconventional, realize why that is, because an unconventional path is riddled with false paths, pain and require faith. If you are conventional you need to rely less on faith and it is why many try to get others to follow it because it is less risky.
toreply2021 5y ago
onphonenow 5y ago
I used to work for a place that did the summer fancy extra-curriculars. Basically, think a very very fun summer camp, BUT we would package in X service features, one per week. This was a win win. Parent's would pay because kid could put the stories of painting the walls in X town on the application, or cleaning up Y pollution on a beach. And the rest of the times the kids could have fun and learn cool stuff (I'm being vague because I liked the program even though you had to have good money to go).
tcmart14 5y ago
I'm not against standardized tests. What I am against is a test ran by a private company as a barrier of entry into a public institution. Private schools who want to require SAT/ACT, fine, they are private institutions, I see no issue them requiring a test administered by a private company. University of North Carolina, eh, can't we have a test ran by a public institution as a barrier of entry into a public institution?
- hacym 5y ago
  I can see this argument. You’d also hope that graduation from one of our high schools and the motivation to apply was enough to demonstrate preparedness for college. While private run tests have their drawbacks, a publicly run exam has its own, and we have examples of that too. It isn’t easy to fix unfortunately.

devwastaken 5y ago

Using that as a metric for society is exactly why we have out of control poverty, drug abuse, and homelessness. If you were able to get good grades in school it wasn't because of your efforts, as a child and teen your brain is largely programmed by the community and environment you grow in. There are no gifted children, only those with educated parents that started early. This is becoming an ever more common theme, especially of kids with teachers for parents whom make too little yet know the systems enough to know exactly how to get their kid past the trite systems created for class warfare. The solution is to defund universities and stop this elitist nonsense. Just like COVID has shown we don't need to show up to the office, we don't need universities either. We are a better society without their control and political agendas. There is little of value that isn't better done by a YouTube video today.

wh313 5y ago
Could you elaborate on these points you made? > The solution is to defund universities and stop this elitist nonsense. We are a better society without their control and political agendas. As someone currently doing a PhD, I definitely agree that there is some elitism in academia, and that school administration usually sucks. However, I also love the work I do, which I couldn't really do anywhere else, and the community of students and faculty, which is pretty unique. What makes you condemn the institution as a whole? > There is little of value that isn't better done by a YouTube video today. As someone who enjoyed the liberal arts education portion of their education, it seems like we don't have the same way of defining "value." Could you describe how you measure if something has value?

team_bacon 5y ago

Bingo. I came from an economically challenged background with a very chaotic family life. Grades were impossible to keep up let alone extra curricular activities. Tests were how I was able to demonstrate my academic potential. I gamed the SAT by "studying". It took an SAT book checked out from the library and a few hours of practice. The SAT is not particularly hard for a bright student of any background that puts some effort into it. And these days there are more free resources available than ever before. I get the feeling policies to remove standardized tests are set by those who have no idea what real intelligence and achievement is.

newswasboring 5y ago

I didn't see your point in the beginning, but as I read this thread I realized how much pressure we are putting on these kids. Even for kids whos parents can afford the extra curricular stuff, it just seems bonkers to me how much they have to do to "stand out". I don't know where I am going with this, but just wanted to say this is too much pressure.

BowBun 5y ago
I agree, and I think it's yet another symptom of the hypercapitalist society we live in. Kids are bombarded with media telling them that success is when you get rich and famous, or when you reach the absolute top of your field. Then again, at school, we're drilled with the lies that college is required and that you need to be in x percentile to get into x school to get x job. Finally, once we get into the workforce, we all judge each other based on our initial salaries, positions, and career trajectories. As long as there is unequal distribution of resources, anyone with an opportunity to further cement their family's socioeconomic status by taking advantage of the system will tend to do so. We need to be able to offer houses, leisure, and fulfillment to everyone from hyper-privileged techy college grads (like a lot of us) to housekeepers, bus drivers, social workers, teachers, etc. I'm ashamed at how easy it is to do so little and 'win' in this system while so many others suffer. And there's nothing I can do with my smidge of resources to help more than a few people at a time which makes no meaningful trajectory change to the millions (billions?) that need help. Sorry for the rant.

bannedbybros 5y ago

Salgat 5y ago

I imagine that test preparation is far more accessible when you have well funded schools and parents who can cover any additional tutoring/preparation. For me the game changer was community college, it gave me a second chance at a price I could afford and with a clean slate I earned a 3.9 GPA and got into a top 10 engineering program.

sparrc 5y ago

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live.
- mxkopy 5y ago
  >the society in which they live. Which society? The one that has mass shootings on a regular basis but makes gun ownership a viable identity? Or the one praises love and peace while buying clothes made in sweatshops? >especially immigrants not their fault Rutesh has maidens and you don't
- csa 5y ago
  > It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores This is very unlikely to happen for East Asians or Indians. > and not have to do any of the other trivial stuff that demonstrates that they can participate in the society in which they live. This “trivial” stuff is often not trivial when done well. - Sports, especially varsity athletics and Olympic sports, has social currency in elite circles. Some folks may not like the fact that this is true, but it’s foolish to deny that it’s true. In some cases, participation in sports actually develops character leadership skills. - The things some high school students are able to do as “volunteers” can blow your mind. The soft skills that these activities can develop carry over really well to the “real world”. Lots of extracurriculars are BS, but the folks who do the BS ones aren’t getting into elite schools based on those. - If I understand what you are saying, suggesting that immigrants should not need to have the skills to participate in society is mind boggling to me. Elite schools aren’t just looking to churn out brainiacs (and the real brainiacs are getting in on more brainy stuff than high SAT scores and perfect grades). They are looking to churn out people who will impact society. Honestly, some sort of impressive community involvement in the Indian community (as an example) is something that would be a strong part of an elite school application.

dangle1 5y ago

I can relate, and I appreciated the doors the PSAT and SAT opened for me. OTOH, I test higher than my actual abilities in my opinion, and that was a relatively unfair advantage the test gave me.

jacobr1 5y ago
What does testing higher than one's ability actually mean? I'm guessing either you think the test is an imperfect proxy for a different (more important) skill, or otherwise you have imposter syndrome.
- 30829984 5y ago
  Not OP but I am an abnormally good "tester." It was always easy for me to see what the questions were asking for and could make a go of anything multiple choice. I'm also good at writing essays. It does not make me smart, it makes my abilities especially suited to standardized tests.
  - chii 5y ago
    Being able to infer information fast, being able to write essays well, etc, are signs of good intelligence and high cognitive capability. There's no abnormality here i can see. Your score reflects your real ability.
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      If you cannot solve the same problems given an open ended question, is it real ability? There is definitely something there, but I’m not sure I could be proud of it.
- bombcar 5y ago
  I will say I'm of decent peer-inteligence (and the test scores put me in the top 1% or higher) but that doesn't account for other aspects of "ability". I feel my grades more accurately portrayed me as a whole but the test was accurate as to potential if that makes sense.

tomatowurst 5y ago

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

csa 5y ago
> yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism. People throw this out as though it is fact, when in reality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._President_and_Fellows_of_Harvard_College#Decision_and_appeal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions... “In October 2019, Judge Allison D. Burroughs ruled that Harvard College's admissions policies do not unduly discriminate against Asian Americans.” “In February 2020, SFFA filed an appeal in the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. The court heard oral arguments in mid-2020 and ultimately ruled in late 2020 in favor of Harvard, concluding that Judge Burroughs had not erred in her ruling and major factual findings.” Elite admissions is more than great grades and great standardized test scores. Some folks may not like the fact that this is true, but that doesn’t make it less true, and it doesn’t (necessarily) make it racist.
- thenanyu 5y ago
  Judge Burroughs was wrong. The Supreme Court will overturn, especially given the explicit promise by (likely to be confirmed) Justice Jackson to abstain.
MichaelApproved 5y ago
I’d say you’ve got more straw men in that loaded question than farmers have in their field. You’re taking poorly summarized opinions and pretending that combination of opinions are held by a group of significant size.
- tomatowurst 5y ago

runarberg 5y ago

Seriously, is there no talk about how unfair the notion of extra-curricular activities is in the US? It is one of these things that gave me a major culture shock moving into the US. Things like giving an advantage to people that have so many hours of volunteer work feels a really blatant way to give an unfair advantage to folks that are already way privileged and over represented.

cma 5y ago
> Does working help you get into college? >Yes! Having a job in high school can definitely look good on your college application. As long as it doesn't end up negatively impacting other key areas such as academic performance and extracurricular participation, working in high school is an excellent way to increase the strength of your application. https://admissionsight.com/will-a-high-school-job-help-or-hurt-my-college-application/ https://admissionsight.com/will-a-high-school-job-help-or-hu... It does seem pretty screwed up. I don't see how working couldn't have a negative impact on time for extracurricular activities. Or say someone wasn't even officially a worker, like providing care for elderly relatives living at home.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  > As long as it doesn't end up negatively impacting other key areas such as academic performance and extracurricular participation lol

acchow 5y ago

Extra-curricular well-roundedness was basically added to separate the well off from the poor

ashtonkem 5y ago
As a general rule, I always look at more subjective measures like extra curriculars and “well-roundedness” with a huge amount of skepticism. Such subjective standards are phenomenal places to hide discrimination and favoratism.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

smrtinsert 5y ago

They literally wrote again, it's a multiple factor process. Why is there this concept "test vs no test"? No one expects meritless acceptance to anything.

wutbrodo 5y ago

May I ask on what basis you were against them? Was it just ignorance of the facts (like the canard that they just measure wealth), or did you change your opinion of something subjective?

a-dub 5y ago

it's very likely that i would have never gone to college had there not been an option to test-in. instead i got offers from several top tier institutions based on test scores, essays, work experience and the equivalent of a ged alone. as such, i'm immensely thankful that the route exists and believe that it should continue to exist as part of a variety of routes for prospective students to demonstrate their aptitude, grit and readiness for higher education. just as exams and associated scores should not discourage anyone from applying, neither should grade averages or k-12 school experiences. the application process should provide those with all manner of experiences and strengths to make cases that suit their situations best.

agar 5y ago

This thread is filled with people arguing false dichotomies: "test scores" vs. "fancy extra-curriculars" or "rich experiences" vs. "working class experiences." I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities. To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1) students who will succeed at their university, and (2) a diverse range of students to avoid a monoculture. This means they try to look at the "whole student." For some students, that means academics and test scores to show academic prowess. For others, it's working summers to pay for their college to show it's a personally meaningful step for them. For others, it's being a primary caregiver to siblings or parents while still meeting college requirements to show grit and determination. For others, it's demonstrating consistent progress in pursuing a passion (e.g., volunteering or music or art) with a trajectory that continues through college. Admission officers say they want a student body comprised of all of the above, and that's how they get the diverse range of students to create a dynamic learning environment. Some of the least interesting students are "box checkers" who have a bunch of disconnected extra-curriculars that don't show passion, direction, or a proclivity towards success. If a student defines "success" as "getting into college," then what will they do once they get there? Probably flounder. Test scores can be a useful data point towards determining collegiate success, but it certainly won't be the only one used. Nor will extra-curriculars or any other single factor. The single biggest piece of advice for any applying student: create a narrative that shows how your activities (whatever they are) demonstrate why you will be a successful student that achieves your major-related goals. Your grades, scores, work life, home life, interests, and personal experiences should all be connected to show you are thoughtful, motivated, driven, and have your shit together. Do that, and you'll have the best chance of success at most admissions offices.

hacym 5y ago
High level public institutions get tens of thousands of applicants. I can almost assure you that what you’re describing is a wonderland that doesn’t exist in all but the smallest schools that can take time to review applicants on the whole. Most schools can barely weed through the applicants based on standardized measures (GPA, SAT/ACT, coursework). The feel good stuff likely only shines in essays, but very little prestige is going to be given to someone that wrote about working a summer job to pay for school, even if that’s unfortunate for the student.

thedstrat 5y ago

There are intelligent people though that don't do well on standardized tests (or at least don't get top tier results). I agree that standardized testing is a good metric to get a general idea of aptitude, but I think it hugely fails in appreciating people who are able to solve 'non-standardized' problems. And those are actually the people who should be placed in top institutions

parineum 5y ago
> And those are actually the people who should be placed in top institutions Do you really think there's this untapped group of "non-standardized" thinkers out there who belong in the to institutions but for standardized tests? This sounds a lot like something I'd tell myself when I was 16 instead of dealing with the reality that I was just a lazy, underachieving high school student and would have made a lazy, underachieving college student. In reality, those unconventional thinkers you're talking about find a way to achieve anyway by unconventional means.
- jounker 5y ago
  I know at least one of these people. When you give her an opportunity she hits the ball out of the park. Wherever you put her she quickly rises to the top, but she has been denied many opportunities because she doesn’t test well on standardized tests.
- tomatowurst 5y ago
  Reflecting back on my own attitude and performance in schools, I was just an underachiever who wanted more but refusing to put in the work. Now that I am an adult I can tell you what got me into this thinking and it was because of ego and unrealistic expectations that I built for myself based on what I was told. "You have a high IQ, you are smart, you are intelligent, you don't study and you do well etc" I let it get to my head and instead of growing, instead of recognizing what I didn't know, I focused on what I knew. Pride and ego. For a while it worked so I had no reason to doubt it. But when the sheer work load got to a point where effective time management, strong and consistent work ethic were required I couldn't pull it off. its a downward spiral, you are not used to putting in effort and seeing good results. that is setting you up for failure. now? people who do well on tests, who do well in school, are completely deserving because they put in the work and patience. same with success, its not a matter of rolling dice but focus and it requires: - knowing what i dont know - effort & work Yes there are really smart people out there who could really benefit from the above but many do not like to admit it. I do and now I take the time and effort to know what I don't know. This has nothing to do with race or equity but more to do with your attitude. Yes it can be influenced by our surroundings and events but everyday we get up and make the choice to believe or not believe what we don't know and know. Having said that if you realize you are unconventional, realize why that is, because an unconventional path is riddled with false paths, pain and require faith. If you are conventional you need to rely less on faith and it is why many try to get others to follow it because it is less risky.

toreply2021 5y ago

onphonenow 5y ago

I used to work for a place that did the summer fancy extra-curriculars. Basically, think a very very fun summer camp, BUT we would package in X service features, one per week. This was a win win. Parent's would pay because kid could put the stories of painting the walls in X town on the application, or cleaning up Y pollution on a beach. And the rest of the times the kids could have fun and learn cool stuff (I'm being vague because I liked the program even though you had to have good money to go).

tcmart14 5y ago

I'm not against standardized tests. What I am against is a test ran by a private company as a barrier of entry into a public institution. Private schools who want to require SAT/ACT, fine, they are private institutions, I see no issue them requiring a test administered by a private company. University of North Carolina, eh, can't we have a test ran by a public institution as a barrier of entry into a public institution?

hacym 5y ago
I can see this argument. You’d also hope that graduation from one of our high schools and the motivation to apply was enough to demonstrate preparedness for college. While private run tests have their drawbacks, a publicly run exam has its own, and we have examples of that too. It isn’t easy to fix unfortunately.