18 ms·

Google illegally underpaid thousands of workers

576 points by jdkee 5y ago

willcipriano 5y ago
Sounds like they were caught red handed, mens rea and all. Any chance this ends up with serious repercussions like prison time?
- Ansil849 5y ago
  > any chance this ends up with serious repercussions like prison time When has any staff member of a FAANG company faced prison time for a similar crime? Not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious though my instinct is to say 'never'.
  - aemreunal 5y ago
    The only one I can think of was Anthony Levandowski for stealing Waymo's trade secrets but he was pardoned a few months later.
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      That's not really a similar crime; that's a crime against another corporation.
      - sli 5y ago
        Even still, the guy got a pardon after 33 federal charges and pleading guilty to one of them. The average person would never get even a hint of a chance at that (or, frankly, such a tiny sentence -- 18 months, 6 served before pardon).
        nicoffeine 5y ago
        Rich white dudes have a lot of empathy for other rich white dudes.
    - inerte 5y ago
      Not similar, but https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/former-netflix-executive-convicted-receiving-bribes-and-kickbacks-companies-contracting https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/former-netflix-executiv... I am not really sure if he was arrested yet, or ever.
  - paxys 5y ago
    The only time this happens is when the employee was harming the company in any way (insider trading, selling IP etc). It's pretty obvious who the law favors in these situations.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    I was going to say that Italy convincted David Drummond in absentia but it turns out the sentence was suspended so he wouldn't actually have to go to jail.
  - syshum 5y ago
    Executives only go to jail if 1. They do something to harm the government (i.e Tax evasion) 2. They do something to harm a Rich person 3. They do something to harm another multinational corporation If they just harm a few citizens... the government literally does not care
    - BingoAhoy 5y ago
      Laws written by the powerful to serve the powerful. That's American plutocratic Justice for yah. Designed intentionally, just like this Google system of contracted companies.
- bko 5y ago
  > Civil law vs. criminal law: Punishment > Another important distinction between civil and criminal law is the type of penalty paid for being found guilty. In a criminal case, if the individual charged with a crime loses the case, they’re likely facing incarceration or some type of probation. For civil cases, the resolution to a case doesn’t result in the “losing” party going to jail. Often the judgement results in a financial penalty or an order to change behavior. https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/civil-law-versus-criminal-law/ https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/civil...
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    > Section 2 makes it an offence to commit fraud by false representation in any form. For a representation to be false, the representation being made must be wrong or misleading, and the person making it must know that it is, or might be, wrong or misleading.[0] I think it is reasonable to presume that by paying it's contractors, Google and by virtue it's executive team was representing to said contractor that they were being paid according to the labor laws. Google executives knew that this was not the case, and withheld that information, likely in order to increase their own personal bonuses. That would seem to me to be theft by deception, illegal in every nation on earth as far as I can tell. That's not even to mention the shareholders, who were defrauded as the company financials do not accurately reflect their labor liabilities. This in turn may have increased the value of Google stock, that then the people committing fraud around wages receive as a considerable portion of their compensation. If knowingly lying for personal gain and costing potentially tens of thousands of people life changing amounts of money isn't fraud, what is? [0]https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-fraud-act-2006-repeal-of-the-deception-offences-in-the-theft-acts-1968-1996 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-fraud-act-200...
    - dodobirdlord 5y ago
      Well, everything is securities fraud, so why not? https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everything-everywhere-is-securities-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt... https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-22/everything-still-might-be-securities-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-22/everyt...
- scohesc 5y ago
  The feds shouldn't do anything until bonuses are handed out to the board of directors then snag them all away. Options, stocks, hard cash, a new car? Yoink!
- nullc 5y ago
  Years back Google and Apple conspired to illegally fix wages and were caught no less red handed, including executives emailing to keep the program out of email because it's illegal. The conspiracy even used threats of ruining other competitors with patent claims to force them to participate. The fines and judgement they paid were but a tiny fraction of the cumulative wages they stole. The lesson was that wage theft is profitable. Until we start imposing a corporate death penalty in situations like this there will be no reason for companies to not simply do the economic calculation and decide the defrauding their employees is the right thing to do for their bottom line, one that can be optimized by lowering the risk of prosecution by better obscuring the crime or building up a legal team that can tie up the largest of nation states in court for decades.
hnbad 5y ago
This is as good a time as any to remind workers that wage theft is among the biggest white collar crimes: https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-forms-theft-workers/ https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-fo...
threatofrain 5y ago
> Google executives have been aware since at least May 2019 that the company was failing to comply with local laws in the UK, Europe and Asia that mandate temporary workers be paid equal rates to full-time employees performing similar work, internal Google documents and emails reviewed by the Guardian show. > But rather than immediately correct the errors, the company dragged its feet for more than two years, the documents show, citing concern about the increased cost to departments that rely heavily on temporary workers, potential exposure to legal claims, and fear of negative press attention.
- 0des 5y ago
  What is the mechanism by which an entity that has the resources to spend on wrist-slaps is prevented from just continuing the behavior forever? I notice this a lot, and it feels like there are these opportunities everywhere that are exploited by corporations who know they'll skate every time with minimal financial impact.
  - bko 5y ago
    The "wrist slaps" will make up for the entire amount that the offending party short-changed the workers and penalties on top of that not to mention the cost associated with litigation. So it's not economical for the offending parties to continue such behavior.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      > So it's not economical for the offending parties to continue such behavior. Of course it is. The only needed change is to take adequate care to not leave incriminating evidence such as emails around.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - chitowneats 5y ago
      This assumes a 100% success rate of catching such behavior.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
walshemj 5y ago
Rather odd as in the UK id expect to get paid a lot more as a contractor for the same roll as a FTE. A bit of "schadenfreude " that clerical jobs in HR are some of the one in the UK Update Having said that I was underpaid as full timer when I worked for a BT subsidiary back in the day and the HR director was a "piece of work"
- bjohnson225 5y ago
  > Rather odd as in the UK id expect to get paid a lot more as a contractor for the same roll as a FTE As a software dev/management contractor, sure, but as a “self-employed Yodel delivery driver” or similar low skill role? (Which it seems to be in this case)
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    In the UK it’s fairly common for SWEs to also work on a contractor basis (but they own their own personal company which contracts directly with the contracting company’s HR dept: no bodyshops or consulting firms are involved in this particular style of employment). This happens a lot because of how the UK’s tax-law is set-up (by accident, not by-design, though). ———————- Outside of the games industry, the UK’s been less-and-less of an attractive location to be as an SWE, which I personally attribute to the UK’s corporate culture which places engineering as strictly subordinate to management instead of embracing engineering-led management, which (in my opinion) is tied to the entrenched class-system (e.g. upper-management read classics at Oxbridge, why on earth would they allow a MEng from an industrial redbrick like UMIST or B’ham into the board-room for even a briefing, let alone help making decisions for the company? /s)
    - cbzbc 5y ago
      I’d concur with your assessment of British management culture and the class reasons for why it occurs. Ironically this kind of thing is also the reason why the U.K. has never produced a peer to any of the FAANGs I think if you reify CP Snows thesis through the lens of the class system it turns out to be mostly correct.
notJim 5y ago
> A whistleblower represented by Whistleblower Aid has filed a complaint about the alleged violations with the US Securities and Exchange Commission. Nice.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Hopefully they're getting paid [1] for their efforts! [1] https://www.sec.gov/whistleblower https://www.sec.gov/whistleblower "The Commission is authorized by Congress to provide monetary awards to eligible individuals who come forward with high-quality original information that leads to a Commission enforcement action in which over $1,000,000 in sanctions is ordered. The range for awards is between 10% and 30% of the money collected." From this post: "While international labor law is not under the purview of the SEC, the complaint alleges that Google’s failure to disclose the pay parity liabilities, which it estimates could amount to $100m, constitute material misstatements in its quarterly financial reports, a violation of US securities law." “The disclosure makes it clear that Google hasn’t just broken labor laws around the world, but has misled investors about major legal and financial liabilities,” said John Tye, founder and chief disclosure officer of Whistleblower Aid. “The lawful, anonymous whistleblower disclosure is a critical step toward ensuring that Google is held to account. We urge the SEC to bring an enforcement action against Google, and protect the rights of investors to receive complete and accurate information.”
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    It’s pretty messed up that “defrauding investors” is the legal action most likely to succeed in court and not, ya know, defrauding the people they actually defrauded.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Yep, seems to be a lot of that [1] going around. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28484294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28484294
    - neil_s 5y ago
AcerbicZero 5y ago
I’m betting they legally underpaid a fair share of workers too. Corporate corruption like this is one of the reasons we can’t have nice things.
- tdeck 5y ago
  The presence of an underclass of low-pay contractors depresses wages for everyone.
literallyaduck 5y ago
Time for a class action against Google. The whole industry could have depressed wages from their actions.
- CobrastanJorji 5y ago
  Today in "class action over the whole industry having depresed wages from their actions" history, this month marks the 21st anniversary of the DoJ filing a complaint against Google, Apple, Intel, and Adobe for agreeing not to poach each other's employees. The companies eventually settled a civil class action suit for $415 million.
  - literallyaduck 5y ago
    It wasn't enough to correct their malevolent behavior. Alphabet's assets should be frozen pending a full investigation.
    - smabie 5y ago
      Uhh? You want to basically kill the company pending investigation? Who does that help?
      - literallyaduck 5y ago
        They previously stole wages from every dev, and looks like they did it again. RICO on past and ongoing criminal acts. https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/14/google_android_data_allowance/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/14/google_android_data_a... https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/google-sued-u-s-tracking-users-private-internet-browsing-n1222676 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/google-sued-u-s-tracki... https://www.computerworld.com/article/2517832/google-hit-with-class-action-lawsuit-over-wi-fi-snooping.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2517832/google-hit-wit... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/02/apple-siri-lawsuit-privacy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/02/apple-s... https://www.cnet.com/news/google-pay-discrimination-lawsuit-granted-class-action-status/ https://www.cnet.com/news/google-pay-discrimination-lawsuit-... https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-find-gmail-privacy-settlement-inadequate/ https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-find-gmail-privacy-sett... https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/google-sued-for-selling-user-data-despite-claims-the-company-does-not/ar-BB1gqN53 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/google-sued-for-se...
AlbertCory 5y ago
Personal Googler story: In Ads and in Search, at least as of 2010 or so, Google employed independent companies who hired "raters" to provide "ground truth" for the ML systems. For example, they would rate proposed ads for a given query, so that the ML system could learn from their "truth". For Search, they'd rate proposed search results for a given query. There was a whole pipeline to bring in the raters' results and use them. Those "raters" were contractors to the independent companies, and had no Google privileges at all. They couldn't come to campus and eat at the cafes, for example. They had no direct contact with any Google employees. I helped a relative get hired as one of those. This was about 11 years ago. These outside companies had minimal oversight from Google, by design. My cousin joined the Search rater company and was given a test problem, which was timed and they had max times allowed. When she finished, they said "sorry, you took too long, we're not paying you." I raised a stink and HR sent a representative to meet with the Search people. I sat in. The Search people were obnoxious little corporate toadies who claimed they couldn't interfere with any particular contractor's case, because of the legal separation requirements. I so enjoyed watching the HR rep calmly and politely tell them, "That's great! Good job, you guys! But you know... when you hire someone and they don't do a good job, your remedy is to fire them. Not to refuse to pay." She got paid. I can't make any general statements about what happens to everyone, but in this particular case, I can't complain at all about HR's handling.
- ForHackernews 5y ago
  Was it Leapforce or Lionbridge? I used to do search rating for both of those.
- joe_the_user 5y ago
  I can't make any general statements about what happens to everyone, but in this particular case, I can't complain at all about HR's handling. That's kind of the exception that proves the rule, you think? That is, your outlining of the situation gives a strong suggestion that this sort of thing is common and unless the contractor has pull (say, a relative that works at Google), they can't do anything.
  - AlbertCory 5y ago
tmp_anon_22 5y ago
Again? [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-google-lawsuit-exclusive/exclusive-apple-google-to-pay-324-million-to-settle-conspiracy-lawsuit-idUSBREA3N28Z20140425 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-google-lawsuit-excl...
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Actually curious. Are these folks even paid by google? Or does google pay some contractor who then pays folks? Are the laws designed to cover temporary staff hired by google, or temporary staff hired by a contractor hired by google?
- w3ll_w3ll_w3ll 5y ago
  Google pays work agencies (like Adecco) that then pay workers. The worker has a temporary employment contract with the agency, but reports directly to Google staff. The laws are meant to cover temporary staff hired by a work agency hired by google.
pengaru 5y ago
Never forget: if slavery weren't illegal there would be no shortage of slave owners.
- rastafang 5y ago
  slavery is legal, but it is regulated, somewhat.
  - gscott 5y ago
    Now you can just call your slaves independent contractors who set their own time but have to have a certain percentage of performance to get paid.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  There are no shortage of slave owners today. Just not so much in western countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maps_Global_Slavery_Index_2019.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maps_Global_Slavery_Index...
- 113 5y ago
  Slavery is still legal in the US, there is an exception for people in prison.
pembrook 5y ago
My question is, if it's so advantageous to employ people via onsite staffing firms (basically half of FAANG's workforce is employed this way), why doesn't Google stop directly employing people altogether? Without fail, if it's a giant publicly-traded company, a huge percentage of the workforce will always be onsite vendors. It seems so bizarrely arbitrary where they decide to hire direct vs. contract. And I'm not talking about janitors, I'm talking highly paid software engineers, product managers, etc working on the same teams with Google employees. Based on the rates I've seen, I can't imagine it's cheaper than having direct employees. So I'm guessing its more about making it easier to fire people, harder to get sued by them, and offloading the hassle of benefits onto a third party. It's clearly legal in the US, so why not take that strategy with all employees. Does anybody have insight as to when this trend started in corporate America and why it's only popular with big publicly traded companies? When a company goes public, do they suddenly get a mandate from the Board that they have to start mass-hiring people through Adecco? Based on stories of mailroom workers rising up to executive ranks in the past, this clearly wasn't true as recently as the 1970s.
- ffggvv 5y ago
  the engineers etc i’ve worked with that were contractors were far worse and way below normal google hiring bar. sorry if that’s not PC but it’s the truth. if they could get hired at actual google they would’ve done it. hell, if they could get hired as a SWE at a comparable firm they would do that instead of taking a massive pay cut to be a contractor
  - luckylion 5y ago
    That begs the question: why is Google using subpar developers? It's hard to imagine there just not being any better ones, and it probably isn't a money issue. Are they so against having good old employees?
    - thanhhaimai 5y ago
      Opinions are my own. I also make no claim on the expertise of contractors. The common saying in engineering is you use the right tools for the job. Likewise, you place the right people to the right job. It would be a mismatch to put an L5+ to do some low impact work. That would be an inefficient use of limited resources. The SWE would also be unhappy since that affects their perf/promo. Depends on the potential impact/difficulty/urgency, it might be more appropriate to save that work for an intern, fixterm, or TVC. It's not about "so against having good old employees". It's business.
fnord77 5y ago
ah, surely just incompetence or a bureaucratic black hole and not malice. > But rather than immediately correct the errors, the company dragged its feet for more than two years, the documents show, citing concern about the increased cost to departments that rely heavily on temporary workers, whelp
sneak 5y ago
This is not the first time Google has been known to do this. Eric Schmidt was personally involved in the criminal conspiracy that formed one of the other high profile cases, and enjoyed a long and prosperous career at Google for many years afterward. Google is not an ethical employer.
dekhn 5y ago
It continues to impress me that Google says it hires smart people, trains them not to put incriminating evidence in emails (really), and then hires managers who then put an entire chain into email (probably also archived as a group) and get the company written up on the front page of the NY Times (the very criteria they try to scare you with).
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  Just remember, for every screwup like this there's 100x more nefarious deeds that were properly kept secret. I'm curious about what happened to the employees who complained about the dark patterns to prevent disabling location tracking. Clearly management knew this dysfunction was all by design and was smart enough not to write it down. If you're too user focused do you get sidelined and pushed out?
- advisedwang 5y ago
  Perhaps those people are prioritizing making sure they personally have done the right thing (or more cynically, are covering their own asses) over shielding Google.
ausbah 5y ago
jesus the lack of enforcement on stuff like this is outrageous. at the very least the company should be fined the garnished wages + some, the executives involved fired with no severance, and an external organization should do a compliance review
- boffinism 5y ago
  I thought garnishing wages was the problem in the first place...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
civilized 5y ago
Wait till people realize that businesses legally underpay tens of millions of workers.
eigengrau5150 5y ago
Dissolve Google's charter. Shut them down. Wage theft must never be tolerated.
vadym909 5y ago
Atleast the European countries have laws that require equal pay for full-time vs contractors. Its about time the US instituted such laws too. It's just gross how companies get away with using contractors for the same job as full-timers but treat them like lepers that don't deserve equal pay or benefits.
- w3ll_w3ll_w3ll 5y ago
  Most of these laws were written in Europe when staff leasing from external agencies was legalized at the end of '90/early '00. They were meant to avoid what you describe. I don't know if they work well, but it's better than nothing.
  - Oladunk 5y ago
    I'm Norwegian and things are probably different down in mainland Europe, but at least here we have fairly little use of external agencies and temps. You're required by law to offer full time employment unless specific criteria are met. External agencies are usually used for cleaning, cantinas and things like that, but not much else. The (much, much) stricter labor laws grant the same rights to everyone regardless of employer, position and percentage, so there's not much to save from using external agencies anyway. One exception is concultancy agencies, but they are usually much more expensive (and offer better salaries), so that's mostly to avoid dealing with the recruiting aspect and risking bad hires. Temporary positions is a problem for nurses, in kindergartens and, perhaps ironically, for professors.
darthvoldemort 5y ago
I find it odd that Google is so proud of the fact that it plans on recycling all its power and is spending so much on being carbon neutral, but can't have the common decency to pay people for the work they did. They have a misplaced sense of morality.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  The being carbon neutral thing is way cheaper than paying people and produces nice PR. Same for diversity stuff. Companies jump on that because it's cheap.
specialist 5y ago
Contracting firms fulfill all the same functions as union halls. Tech workers should just unionize. Keep more of the cheddar for themselves.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
HeavyStorm 5y ago
Evil has really crept in.
concordDance 5y ago
An important thing to note is that for the executives in question, this is a compliance and PR issue, NOT an ethical issue! These laws don't exist in the USA and from the perspective of the executives (and the wider American public) there's nothing wrong with paying permanent and temporary staff different wages. The actual monetary amounts are also pretty small (up to 100 million liability) which Google can easily afford, they just really didn't want to have to try and figure out department budget adjustments.
- luffapi 5y ago
  This is absolutely an ethical issue (yes I’m American). Google knowingly violated labor laws to underpay workers. Hopefully the PR from this causes Google to lose billions (and for ethical people to stop working/applying at Google, which honestly probably happened about 10 years ago).
- josefx 5y ago
  > These laws don't exist in the USA One would think that they would have lawyers to figure that out and they probably have, otherwise they would be sinking in lawsuits from they own European employees. > NOT an ethical issue! They spend at least two years intentionally underpaying people. Of course you can reclassify everything as a PR issue, for example poison in baby food is a PR issue, hiding the fact that a bad ignition switch was a cost saving measure was a PR issue, fucking Auschwitz was a PR issue.
nixie 5y ago
DO NO EVIL

576 points by jdkee 5y ago

Sounds like they were caught red handed, mens rea and all. Any chance this ends up with serious repercussions like prison time?

Ansil849 5y ago
> any chance this ends up with serious repercussions like prison time When has any staff member of a FAANG company faced prison time for a similar crime? Not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious though my instinct is to say 'never'.
- aemreunal 5y ago
  The only one I can think of was Anthony Levandowski for stealing Waymo's trade secrets but he was pardoned a few months later.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    That's not really a similar crime; that's a crime against another corporation.
    - sli 5y ago
      Even still, the guy got a pardon after 33 federal charges and pleading guilty to one of them. The average person would never get even a hint of a chance at that (or, frankly, such a tiny sentence -- 18 months, 6 served before pardon).
      - nicoffeine 5y ago
        Rich white dudes have a lot of empathy for other rich white dudes.
  - inerte 5y ago
    Not similar, but https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/former-netflix-executive-convicted-receiving-bribes-and-kickbacks-companies-contracting https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/former-netflix-executiv... I am not really sure if he was arrested yet, or ever.
- paxys 5y ago
  The only time this happens is when the employee was harming the company in any way (insider trading, selling IP etc). It's pretty obvious who the law favors in these situations.
- dekhn 5y ago
  I was going to say that Italy convincted David Drummond in absentia but it turns out the sentence was suspended so he wouldn't actually have to go to jail.
- syshum 5y ago
  Executives only go to jail if 1. They do something to harm the government (i.e Tax evasion) 2. They do something to harm a Rich person 3. They do something to harm another multinational corporation If they just harm a few citizens... the government literally does not care
  - BingoAhoy 5y ago
    Laws written by the powerful to serve the powerful. That's American plutocratic Justice for yah. Designed intentionally, just like this Google system of contracted companies.
bko 5y ago
> Civil law vs. criminal law: Punishment > Another important distinction between civil and criminal law is the type of penalty paid for being found guilty. In a criminal case, if the individual charged with a crime loses the case, they’re likely facing incarceration or some type of probation. For civil cases, the resolution to a case doesn’t result in the “losing” party going to jail. Often the judgement results in a financial penalty or an order to change behavior. https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/civil-law-versus-criminal-law/ https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/civil...
- willcipriano 5y ago
  > Section 2 makes it an offence to commit fraud by false representation in any form. For a representation to be false, the representation being made must be wrong or misleading, and the person making it must know that it is, or might be, wrong or misleading.[0] I think it is reasonable to presume that by paying it's contractors, Google and by virtue it's executive team was representing to said contractor that they were being paid according to the labor laws. Google executives knew that this was not the case, and withheld that information, likely in order to increase their own personal bonuses. That would seem to me to be theft by deception, illegal in every nation on earth as far as I can tell. That's not even to mention the shareholders, who were defrauded as the company financials do not accurately reflect their labor liabilities. This in turn may have increased the value of Google stock, that then the people committing fraud around wages receive as a considerable portion of their compensation. If knowingly lying for personal gain and costing potentially tens of thousands of people life changing amounts of money isn't fraud, what is? [0]https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-fraud-act-2006-repeal-of-the-deception-offences-in-the-theft-acts-1968-1996 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-fraud-act-200...
  - dodobirdlord 5y ago
    Well, everything is securities fraud, so why not? https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everything-everywhere-is-securities-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-06-26/everyt... https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-22/everything-still-might-be-securities-fraud https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-22/everyt...
scohesc 5y ago
The feds shouldn't do anything until bonuses are handed out to the board of directors then snag them all away. Options, stocks, hard cash, a new car? Yoink!
nullc 5y ago
Years back Google and Apple conspired to illegally fix wages and were caught no less red handed, including executives emailing to keep the program out of email because it's illegal. The conspiracy even used threats of ruining other competitors with patent claims to force them to participate. The fines and judgement they paid were but a tiny fraction of the cumulative wages they stole. The lesson was that wage theft is profitable. Until we start imposing a corporate death penalty in situations like this there will be no reason for companies to not simply do the economic calculation and decide the defrauding their employees is the right thing to do for their bottom line, one that can be optimized by lowering the risk of prosecution by better obscuring the crime or building up a legal team that can tie up the largest of nation states in court for decades.

hnbad 5y ago

This is as good a time as any to remind workers that wage theft is among the biggest white collar crimes: https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-forms-theft-workers/ https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-fo...

threatofrain 5y ago

> Google executives have been aware since at least May 2019 that the company was failing to comply with local laws in the UK, Europe and Asia that mandate temporary workers be paid equal rates to full-time employees performing similar work, internal Google documents and emails reviewed by the Guardian show. > But rather than immediately correct the errors, the company dragged its feet for more than two years, the documents show, citing concern about the increased cost to departments that rely heavily on temporary workers, potential exposure to legal claims, and fear of negative press attention.

0des 5y ago
What is the mechanism by which an entity that has the resources to spend on wrist-slaps is prevented from just continuing the behavior forever? I notice this a lot, and it feels like there are these opportunities everywhere that are exploited by corporations who know they'll skate every time with minimal financial impact.
- bko 5y ago
  The "wrist slaps" will make up for the entire amount that the offending party short-changed the workers and penalties on top of that not to mention the cost associated with litigation. So it's not economical for the offending parties to continue such behavior.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    > So it's not economical for the offending parties to continue such behavior. Of course it is. The only needed change is to take adequate care to not leave incriminating evidence such as emails around.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    This assumes a 100% success rate of catching such behavior.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

walshemj 5y ago

Rather odd as in the UK id expect to get paid a lot more as a contractor for the same roll as a FTE. A bit of "schadenfreude " that clerical jobs in HR are some of the one in the UK Update Having said that I was underpaid as full timer when I worked for a BT subsidiary back in the day and the HR director was a "piece of work"

bjohnson225 5y ago
> Rather odd as in the UK id expect to get paid a lot more as a contractor for the same roll as a FTE As a software dev/management contractor, sure, but as a “self-employed Yodel delivery driver” or similar low skill role? (Which it seems to be in this case)
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  In the UK it’s fairly common for SWEs to also work on a contractor basis (but they own their own personal company which contracts directly with the contracting company’s HR dept: no bodyshops or consulting firms are involved in this particular style of employment). This happens a lot because of how the UK’s tax-law is set-up (by accident, not by-design, though). ———————- Outside of the games industry, the UK’s been less-and-less of an attractive location to be as an SWE, which I personally attribute to the UK’s corporate culture which places engineering as strictly subordinate to management instead of embracing engineering-led management, which (in my opinion) is tied to the entrenched class-system (e.g. upper-management read classics at Oxbridge, why on earth would they allow a MEng from an industrial redbrick like UMIST or B’ham into the board-room for even a briefing, let alone help making decisions for the company? /s)
  - cbzbc 5y ago
    I’d concur with your assessment of British management culture and the class reasons for why it occurs. Ironically this kind of thing is also the reason why the U.K. has never produced a peer to any of the FAANGs I think if you reify CP Snows thesis through the lens of the class system it turns out to be mostly correct.

notJim 5y ago

> A whistleblower represented by Whistleblower Aid has filed a complaint about the alleged violations with the US Securities and Exchange Commission. Nice.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Hopefully they're getting paid [1] for their efforts! [1] https://www.sec.gov/whistleblower https://www.sec.gov/whistleblower "The Commission is authorized by Congress to provide monetary awards to eligible individuals who come forward with high-quality original information that leads to a Commission enforcement action in which over $1,000,000 in sanctions is ordered. The range for awards is between 10% and 30% of the money collected." From this post: "While international labor law is not under the purview of the SEC, the complaint alleges that Google’s failure to disclose the pay parity liabilities, which it estimates could amount to $100m, constitute material misstatements in its quarterly financial reports, a violation of US securities law." “The disclosure makes it clear that Google hasn’t just broken labor laws around the world, but has misled investors about major legal and financial liabilities,” said John Tye, founder and chief disclosure officer of Whistleblower Aid. “The lawful, anonymous whistleblower disclosure is a critical step toward ensuring that Google is held to account. We urge the SEC to bring an enforcement action against Google, and protect the rights of investors to receive complete and accurate information.”
- elliekelly 5y ago
  It’s pretty messed up that “defrauding investors” is the legal action most likely to succeed in court and not, ya know, defrauding the people they actually defrauded.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Yep, seems to be a lot of that [1] going around. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28484294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28484294
  - neil_s 5y ago

AcerbicZero 5y ago

I’m betting they legally underpaid a fair share of workers too. Corporate corruption like this is one of the reasons we can’t have nice things.

tdeck 5y ago
The presence of an underclass of low-pay contractors depresses wages for everyone.

literallyaduck 5y ago

Time for a class action against Google. The whole industry could have depressed wages from their actions.

CobrastanJorji 5y ago
Today in "class action over the whole industry having depresed wages from their actions" history, this month marks the 21st anniversary of the DoJ filing a complaint against Google, Apple, Intel, and Adobe for agreeing not to poach each other's employees. The companies eventually settled a civil class action suit for $415 million.
- literallyaduck 5y ago
  It wasn't enough to correct their malevolent behavior. Alphabet's assets should be frozen pending a full investigation.
  - smabie 5y ago
    Uhh? You want to basically kill the company pending investigation? Who does that help?
    - literallyaduck 5y ago
      They previously stole wages from every dev, and looks like they did it again. RICO on past and ongoing criminal acts. https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/14/google_android_data_allowance/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/14/google_android_data_a... https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/google-sued-u-s-tracking-users-private-internet-browsing-n1222676 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/google-sued-u-s-tracki... https://www.computerworld.com/article/2517832/google-hit-with-class-action-lawsuit-over-wi-fi-snooping.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2517832/google-hit-wit... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/02/apple-siri-lawsuit-privacy/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/09/02/apple-s... https://www.cnet.com/news/google-pay-discrimination-lawsuit-granted-class-action-status/ https://www.cnet.com/news/google-pay-discrimination-lawsuit-... https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-find-gmail-privacy-settlement-inadequate/ https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-find-gmail-privacy-sett... https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/google-sued-for-selling-user-data-despite-claims-the-company-does-not/ar-BB1gqN53 https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/google-sued-for-se...

AlbertCory 5y ago

Personal Googler story: In Ads and in Search, at least as of 2010 or so, Google employed independent companies who hired "raters" to provide "ground truth" for the ML systems. For example, they would rate proposed ads for a given query, so that the ML system could learn from their "truth". For Search, they'd rate proposed search results for a given query. There was a whole pipeline to bring in the raters' results and use them. Those "raters" were contractors to the independent companies, and had no Google privileges at all. They couldn't come to campus and eat at the cafes, for example. They had no direct contact with any Google employees. I helped a relative get hired as one of those. This was about 11 years ago. These outside companies had minimal oversight from Google, by design. My cousin joined the Search rater company and was given a test problem, which was timed and they had max times allowed. When she finished, they said "sorry, you took too long, we're not paying you." I raised a stink and HR sent a representative to meet with the Search people. I sat in. The Search people were obnoxious little corporate toadies who claimed they couldn't interfere with any particular contractor's case, because of the legal separation requirements. I so enjoyed watching the HR rep calmly and politely tell them, "That's great! Good job, you guys! But you know... when you hire someone and they don't do a good job, your remedy is to fire them. Not to refuse to pay." She got paid. I can't make any general statements about what happens to everyone, but in this particular case, I can't complain at all about HR's handling.

ForHackernews 5y ago
Was it Leapforce or Lionbridge? I used to do search rating for both of those.
joe_the_user 5y ago
I can't make any general statements about what happens to everyone, but in this particular case, I can't complain at all about HR's handling. That's kind of the exception that proves the rule, you think? That is, your outlining of the situation gives a strong suggestion that this sort of thing is common and unless the contractor has pull (say, a relative that works at Google), they can't do anything.
- AlbertCory 5y ago

tmp_anon_22 5y ago

Again? [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-google-lawsuit-exclusive/exclusive-apple-google-to-pay-324-million-to-settle-conspiracy-lawsuit-idUSBREA3N28Z20140425 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-google-lawsuit-excl...

whoknowswhat11 5y ago

Actually curious. Are these folks even paid by google? Or does google pay some contractor who then pays folks? Are the laws designed to cover temporary staff hired by google, or temporary staff hired by a contractor hired by google?

w3ll_w3ll_w3ll 5y ago
Google pays work agencies (like Adecco) that then pay workers. The worker has a temporary employment contract with the agency, but reports directly to Google staff. The laws are meant to cover temporary staff hired by a work agency hired by google.

pengaru 5y ago

Never forget: if slavery weren't illegal there would be no shortage of slave owners.

rastafang 5y ago
slavery is legal, but it is regulated, somewhat.
- gscott 5y ago
  Now you can just call your slaves independent contractors who set their own time but have to have a certain percentage of performance to get paid.
throwawaylinux 5y ago
There are no shortage of slave owners today. Just not so much in western countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maps_Global_Slavery_Index_2019.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maps_Global_Slavery_Index...
113 5y ago
Slavery is still legal in the US, there is an exception for people in prison.

pembrook 5y ago

My question is, if it's so advantageous to employ people via onsite staffing firms (basically half of FAANG's workforce is employed this way), why doesn't Google stop directly employing people altogether? Without fail, if it's a giant publicly-traded company, a huge percentage of the workforce will always be onsite vendors. It seems so bizarrely arbitrary where they decide to hire direct vs. contract. And I'm not talking about janitors, I'm talking highly paid software engineers, product managers, etc working on the same teams with Google employees. Based on the rates I've seen, I can't imagine it's cheaper than having direct employees. So I'm guessing its more about making it easier to fire people, harder to get sued by them, and offloading the hassle of benefits onto a third party. It's clearly legal in the US, so why not take that strategy with all employees. Does anybody have insight as to when this trend started in corporate America and why it's only popular with big publicly traded companies? When a company goes public, do they suddenly get a mandate from the Board that they have to start mass-hiring people through Adecco? Based on stories of mailroom workers rising up to executive ranks in the past, this clearly wasn't true as recently as the 1970s.

ffggvv 5y ago
the engineers etc i’ve worked with that were contractors were far worse and way below normal google hiring bar. sorry if that’s not PC but it’s the truth. if they could get hired at actual google they would’ve done it. hell, if they could get hired as a SWE at a comparable firm they would do that instead of taking a massive pay cut to be a contractor
- luckylion 5y ago
  That begs the question: why is Google using subpar developers? It's hard to imagine there just not being any better ones, and it probably isn't a money issue. Are they so against having good old employees?
  - thanhhaimai 5y ago
    Opinions are my own. I also make no claim on the expertise of contractors. The common saying in engineering is you use the right tools for the job. Likewise, you place the right people to the right job. It would be a mismatch to put an L5+ to do some low impact work. That would be an inefficient use of limited resources. The SWE would also be unhappy since that affects their perf/promo. Depends on the potential impact/difficulty/urgency, it might be more appropriate to save that work for an intern, fixterm, or TVC. It's not about "so against having good old employees". It's business.

fnord77 5y ago

ah, surely just incompetence or a bureaucratic black hole and not malice. > But rather than immediately correct the errors, the company dragged its feet for more than two years, the documents show, citing concern about the increased cost to departments that rely heavily on temporary workers, whelp

sneak 5y ago

This is not the first time Google has been known to do this. Eric Schmidt was personally involved in the criminal conspiracy that formed one of the other high profile cases, and enjoyed a long and prosperous career at Google for many years afterward. Google is not an ethical employer.

dekhn 5y ago

It continues to impress me that Google says it hires smart people, trains them not to put incriminating evidence in emails (really), and then hires managers who then put an entire chain into email (probably also archived as a group) and get the company written up on the front page of the NY Times (the very criteria they try to scare you with).

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Just remember, for every screwup like this there's 100x more nefarious deeds that were properly kept secret. I'm curious about what happened to the employees who complained about the dark patterns to prevent disabling location tracking. Clearly management knew this dysfunction was all by design and was smart enough not to write it down. If you're too user focused do you get sidelined and pushed out?
advisedwang 5y ago
Perhaps those people are prioritizing making sure they personally have done the right thing (or more cynically, are covering their own asses) over shielding Google.

ausbah 5y ago

jesus the lack of enforcement on stuff like this is outrageous. at the very least the company should be fined the garnished wages + some, the executives involved fired with no severance, and an external organization should do a compliance review

boffinism 5y ago
I thought garnishing wages was the problem in the first place...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

civilized 5y ago

Wait till people realize that businesses legally underpay tens of millions of workers.

eigengrau5150 5y ago

Dissolve Google's charter. Shut them down. Wage theft must never be tolerated.

vadym909 5y ago

Atleast the European countries have laws that require equal pay for full-time vs contractors. Its about time the US instituted such laws too. It's just gross how companies get away with using contractors for the same job as full-timers but treat them like lepers that don't deserve equal pay or benefits.

w3ll_w3ll_w3ll 5y ago
Most of these laws were written in Europe when staff leasing from external agencies was legalized at the end of '90/early '00. They were meant to avoid what you describe. I don't know if they work well, but it's better than nothing.
- Oladunk 5y ago
  I'm Norwegian and things are probably different down in mainland Europe, but at least here we have fairly little use of external agencies and temps. You're required by law to offer full time employment unless specific criteria are met. External agencies are usually used for cleaning, cantinas and things like that, but not much else. The (much, much) stricter labor laws grant the same rights to everyone regardless of employer, position and percentage, so there's not much to save from using external agencies anyway. One exception is concultancy agencies, but they are usually much more expensive (and offer better salaries), so that's mostly to avoid dealing with the recruiting aspect and risking bad hires. Temporary positions is a problem for nurses, in kindergartens and, perhaps ironically, for professors.

darthvoldemort 5y ago

I find it odd that Google is so proud of the fact that it plans on recycling all its power and is spending so much on being carbon neutral, but can't have the common decency to pay people for the work they did. They have a misplaced sense of morality.

spaetzleesser 5y ago
The being carbon neutral thing is way cheaper than paying people and produces nice PR. Same for diversity stuff. Companies jump on that because it's cheap.

specialist 5y ago

Contracting firms fulfill all the same functions as union halls. Tech workers should just unionize. Keep more of the cheddar for themselves.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

HeavyStorm 5y ago

Evil has really crept in.

concordDance 5y ago

An important thing to note is that for the executives in question, this is a compliance and PR issue, NOT an ethical issue! These laws don't exist in the USA and from the perspective of the executives (and the wider American public) there's nothing wrong with paying permanent and temporary staff different wages. The actual monetary amounts are also pretty small (up to 100 million liability) which Google can easily afford, they just really didn't want to have to try and figure out department budget adjustments.

luffapi 5y ago
This is absolutely an ethical issue (yes I’m American). Google knowingly violated labor laws to underpay workers. Hopefully the PR from this causes Google to lose billions (and for ethical people to stop working/applying at Google, which honestly probably happened about 10 years ago).
josefx 5y ago
> These laws don't exist in the USA One would think that they would have lawyers to figure that out and they probably have, otherwise they would be sinking in lawsuits from they own European employees. > NOT an ethical issue! They spend at least two years intentionally underpaying people. Of course you can reclassify everything as a PR issue, for example poison in baby food is a PR issue, hiding the fact that a bad ignition switch was a cost saving measure was a PR issue, fucking Auschwitz was a PR issue.

nixie 5y ago

DO NO EVIL