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Amazon to pay full college tuition for its front-line employees

248 points by infodocket 5y ago

Scoundreller 5y ago
Welcome to Costco, I love you.
kritiko 5y ago
Interesting to see that Amazon has a large focus on UX Design, which Grow.google also emphasizes. I interpret that as a signal that both of these companies see a gap there, although a hard one to train (or, harder to train than basic IT skills...) Can anybody comment on what the hiring needs and career path looks like at Google/Amazon at the moment?
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  To the first part, teaching people the concepts of UX design helps them communicate more clearly what’s difficult about their job and come up with innovations to automate that, which Amazon will then use without compensation to automate their job away.
kylegill 5y ago
It's strange to me working at a startup how vastly different the company programs are to support employees at enterprise level companies, the scale of this kind of program dwarfs our entire company many many times over. Maybe this program will go entirely unused like my $500 yearly education budget though.
- forgetfulness 5y ago
  A $500 won't even get you proper training or a certification from the vendor of that massive tool and/or service that your business relies on, that's why it goes unused. It's large enough that you feel like blowing it on a Coursera course or a book feels too little and small enough not to be of actual importance.
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    Can I blow it on books? That sounds like enough for two of the ridiculously overpriced books I constantly eye.
    - maerF0x0 5y ago
      Dang, what kinda books you eyeing? Knuth's set was the most expensive one I've bought recently
- leetcrew 5y ago
  I suspect these benefits are pretty cheap to offer, at least most years. my employer has a fairly generous tuition reimbursement benefit, but people rarely use it. most people don't want to slowly chip away at a degree on top of a full-time job.
kadomony 5y ago
I think I'd rather just do the army for 4 years than work front-line for Amazon.
- DSingularity 5y ago
  Hyperbole?
  - brezelgoring 5y ago
    Not as much as you'd think. Not all army work is frontline work. You could be a mechanic fixing Humvees, or a comms-operator being the receiver for a radio post. At least those are the posts I could fill, there's more for sure. I'd pick it any time over working for Big Jeff.
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      You can quit Amazon whenever you want. You can't quit the military.
      - sangnoir 5y ago
        If your aim is to get education benefits, then you can't quit Amazon anytime you want; you can only quit when you're done with school (typically 4 years)
        cortesoft 5y ago
        That is a lot shorter amount of time than you are committed to the military
      - brezelgoring 5y ago
        I was putting both options side by side for a comparison, but you are strictly in the right with what you said. I still believe that for those that must choose between either option in order to access higher education with no option for an acceptable loan, it's not so clear to me that people (who am I kidding, able-bodied men) would choose Amazon first.
yboris 5y ago
How does this work? You need to be full-time at work, but also somehow manage college classes? How can you fit anything after an exhausting 40 hours of work per week?
- aejnsn 5y ago
  There are 128 hours left in a given 40-hour work week. Edit: funny the downvotes cannot disprove my simple math. :)
- rareform 5y ago
  > employees must continue working part-time or full-time at Amazon while taking classes. From: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/business/amazon-college-tuition-benefit-jobs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/business/amazon-college-tuiti...
- ronnier 5y ago
  I worked 40 hours a week and full time undergrad and grad school. You work, go to school when you aren't working and when you aren't doing either of those, you sit in the library and study.
  - mabbo 5y ago
    When do you sleep? I worked part-time while an undergrad and it was almost too much for me.
    - dmoy 5y ago
      You would generally do part time undergrad and full time work.
    - ronnier 5y ago
      From midnight to 7:30 am
  - TrueGeek 5y ago
    My wife is currently finishing her masters while working 40 hours a week and still being a mom. It's very stressful, but she's killing it. One of the harder parts (aside from the long nights) was finding an internship that was flexible with her schedule.
southphillyman 5y ago
Seems like this program will mostly reward those who can somehow survive the Amazon culture, similar to the way Amazon RSUs are back loaded for SWEs. If the accounts of Amazon front line workers having to pee in cups and being PIP'd for taking lunch breaks is true how could a significant % of workers maintain that level of workload while attending university?
leetrout 5y ago
> hundreds of education partners across the country Thats different than saying "any accredited institution". I wonder if it is only low cost educational programs...
- pkulak 5y ago
  Well, it does seem reasonable to put _some_ cost controls on it. Hopefully there's lots of great school on the list, but I very much doubt Dartmouth will make the cut.
  - YPCrumble 5y ago
    Then the headline should read “Amazon to provide employee training” or something along those lines. As it is this is just corporate clickbait.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      No, it's not. An education at Random State College is still rather more than "employee training".
      - Frost1x 5y ago
        Not to Amazon it's not, but you won't see that in their propoganda. Even Random State Community College is likely a better education (this is not meant as a backhanded compliment to community colleges, which are at least honest and respectable about what they provide and don't).
        AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        But if I'm getting the education, for free, why do I care whether it serves as employee training to Amazon? And, community colleges provide a better education than state colleges? Seriously? Do you have any evidence for that position?
_understood_ 5y ago
Add this to the growing list of retail (retail focused) organizations already employing this method for employee retention/acquisition: https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22627543/free-online-college-program-workers-target-walmart https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22627543/free-online-college-p... Also, I'll admit that in my current company it is a royal PITA to submit for EDU reimbursement and I would love to have a lower barrier of entry for enrollment friction, etc..
tinyhouse 5y ago
Sounds like a fantastic initiative. Kudos to Amazon. However, I still think that something like college education should be a government priority rather than a company benefit.
gzu 5y ago
This year with the labor shortage has shown we need more "basic" employees getting a livable wage than a country full of college educated students chasing white collar positions
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  This is Amazon attempting to attract more “basic” employees by increasing compensation. Amazon is hoping this program is attractive enough that they do not have to raise cash compensation as much, since these types of strings attached, reimbursement type compensation schemes are vastly cheaper than cash compensation. It is somewhat beneficial for employees if they were already going to be working a job while going to a school Amazon will pay for, since their tuition would be paid with pre tax dollars.
phelm 5y ago
looks like they will do anything to avoid paying their employees properly
- gruez 5y ago
  I suspect it's not because of some nefarious plan to "avoid paying their employees properly" but rather it's more tax efficient to pay for their employees' education (because the compensation isn't subject to payroll tax?).
  - adventured 5y ago
    That's correct. Amazon can deduct the education benefit as a business expense and up to $5,250 is not subject to payroll tax. Neither the employee nor Amazon have to pay taxes on anything up to that sum. Given the continuing-to-soar cost of education, I'd expect Congress to considerably increase that number. People will increasingly get chained to jobs for education cost reasons like they already are for healthcare cost reasons.
adolph 5y ago
I wonder what the tax implications are for employees. A limit at my employer's education reimbursement program is said to be about a threshold over which the reimbursement becomes taxable. Edit: Here is a claim that is similar: As stated above, any amount of tuition reimbursement that exceeds $5,250 is considered a fringe benefit of the job, and the employee will have to pay taxes on that amount. However, if an employee is taking a class related to their job or career, they can declare that their tuition is a work-related expense, thus making it tax-exempt. However, the employee should be prepared to prove that each class they take helps them improve at their job and benefits the company. Otherwise, the money will be considered taxable income. https://study.com/academy/popular/is-tuition-reimbursement-taxable.html https://study.com/academy/popular/is-tuition-reimbursement-t...
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Is tuition reimbursement treated differently than Amazon paying the school directly? > Pre-paid fees. Amazon will pay employees’ tuition and fees in advance rather than offering reimbursement after coursework completion, ensuring employees don’t need existing funds to start accessing the education options they want.
  - twoslide 5y ago
    I don't think it matters how the payment is made. Trump's former CFO is now facing charges for having his grandkid's tuition fees paid, but not declared as compensation. It's a bit different, but comparable.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      It seems the limit is $5,250, unless the education qualifies as a "working condition benefit": https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2021_publink1000193667 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2021_publink1000...
- darthvoldemort 5y ago
  When my tuition was reimbursed almost 20 years ago, it was at that $5250 level. I'm shocked that the limit hasn't increased, given that tuition everywhere has more than doubled since then.
gootler 5y ago
Yeah, right. Why don't they just unionize?
hateful 5y ago
You definitely have to watch the fine print with these things. During my first professional job, I didn't have any degrees (I still don't, but I used to not, also) my employer offered "tuition reimbursement". The stipulation was that the class had to be job related. Not the degree, but the class. So I ended up having to take VB6 (yes, this was 20 years ago) as an elective, since that's what I did at my job (and already knew how to do - I'm not exaggerating when I said I learned nothing new in that class - think, how to add a text box to a form when I was doing very complicated file processing in my day job). But they wouldn't pay for the programming 101 class, let alone any liberal arts credits. I took to calling it "Training Reimbursement".
- brianwawok 5y ago
  The IRS guideline as I understand it, is the DEGREE must be job related. Obviously a job could be more strict (but likely not less strict) than the IRS. Like, basically anyone could expense a business degree. Job related? Doing better at business. But if you are a grocery store stocking shelves, you couldn't submit to the IRS college tuition for say an engineering degree. But within that, it should be all classes. So if you are a self-taught programmer and going to school for a computer science degree, it's OK there is a class in public speaking or chemistry. As long as the degree itself is for something that you can justify as job related. * Not a lawyer, hire a pro before offering tuition reimbursement to make sure you don't run afoul with IRS requirements
  - syshum 5y ago
    Also not a lawyer, but my understanding is that Job Related only applies if you want to deduct the education expenses from your income taxes. Employers can provide up to $5,250 in reimbursement tax free for all qualified programs regardless of the programs relation to the job Over that amount it becomes a fringe benefit subject to income taxation, however if it is job related it can be deducted as an expenses for the employee making it tax free
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    IRS requirements would be what you can deduct for offering to employees, not what the employer is required to offer
barbazoo 5y ago
> Amazon is now the largest job creator in the U.S., and we know that investing in free skills training for our teams can have a huge impact for hundreds of thousands of families across the country The impact being them being able to eventually escape the minimum wage slavery that is working for Amazon?
- jeffy90 5y ago
  doesn't amazon exceed minimum wage for almost all employees?
sriram_sun 5y ago
Not sure how much this pertains to Amazon's employees, but regarding costs, you can get an engineering degree from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo for 4 - 5x less than UC (LA, SD or Berkeley) and still get a really good education. I guess provide an environment and qualified teaching staff, it's up to the student to make best use of it. Research of course, might be a different ball game.
josuepeq 5y ago
With annual 100%-150% turnover rates* Amazon needs to figure out some way to keep people around and engaged. They’re simply running out of Americans to employ who are willing to work such a physically demanding job for peanuts. Their biggest competitor for employees in many places in America is Wal-Mart; and they’ve been offering this for a while now.
- n8cpdx 5y ago
  Peanuts being more than twice minimum wage.
- q1w2 5y ago
  Peanuts? In my area Amazon pays between $19-$21/hr for entry level / no education required, positions. This is significantly higher than most other entry level jobs in the area.
belval 5y ago
The comments here are disheartening. I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things? Also for those complaining about the 40hrs/week then you have part-time school on top: this is actually something that a lot of people do. My engineering university is somewhat known for this in Canada, you have classes at 6PM every day of the week + on Saturday. It is absolutely exhausting but everyone in my class that was in that particular situation was more than happy to have the opportunity to do it even if they were +30 years old. At the end of the program they get to be in a much better financial situation and guarantee a better future for their family.
- Mizza 5y ago
  "Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good.” - Oscar Wilde Just as America has the bizarre situation of healthcare being tied to employment, we may end up in the same situation for education, where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon But that's literally not what's happening? >Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years.
    - Mizza 5y ago
      Yeah, but you'd be given room and board rather than a wage. It's indentured servitude with extra steps.
      - gruez 5y ago
        Is all employment "indentured servitude with extra step" since the wages from your employment is used to pay for "room and board"?
Lamad123 5y ago
Can amozon extend the magnanimity to allow its poor warehouse workers to have decent bathroom breaks!!?
rejectedandsad 5y ago
Man, if only they were willing to pay for a masters for me... but I guess I don't matter.
OOvsuOO 5y ago
what is "Front-Line" there's no front line at amazon. it's all distributed. I haven't read article FYI. That headline is funny.
melenaboija 5y ago
Coming from a country where education is public by default it feels weird society relies on private companies to provide basics. You still have what you "deserve", if you have done the effort to enter and work with a specific company you have free education, otherwise keep looking for better luck. Yes, it is better than nothing but IMHO is another way to concentrate power.
- plandis 5y ago
  I’ve always wondered about this. There are absolutely no strings attached? Even if I’m terrible academically and barely passed school I can still get the state to pay for me to likely just fail university?
  - melenaboija 5y ago
    Not exactly. In Spain where I am from the cost of college is something like €2000 per year (approx, depends on degree). That is for your first attempt, which means if you pass everything the total cost could be 8000 for the degree. If you fail a class and have to take it again, besides gpa, the price increments, and keeps incrementing for each attempt until you reach almost the real cost of that class. Some other things to note: - public schools usually have better recognition than private ones, for things such mba's may be different - the government can help with the tuition fee depending on the financial situation, meaning you can get the degree for free - if you get the max score in one class you get that fee back, so if you get max scores in all classes you can also get the degree for free
    - plandis 5y ago
      Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think it’s a great idea to base fees based on your performance in classes after you’ve actually finished it. In the US there are plenty of scholarships but you need to have demonstrated prior achievement which shuts the doors for many people who don’t excel until they get to college (although, admittedly there are few people in this group).
OOvsuOO 5y ago
Where is the "Front-Line" there's none! LOL that is funny.
mrtweetyhack 5y ago
Nice marketing. All they have to do is hire people already with degrees...as if they don't already
ransom1538 5y ago
lol. Transfer taxes they didn't pay for front-line employees to front-line employees. [Minus the cut for profit obviously]. Well played.
- gruez 5y ago
  The government wants to incentivize companies to pay for their worker's education, and amazon's taking up on their offer. What's the issue here? Are you also against individuals transferring "taxes they didn't pay" to their retirement fund, by contributing to their 401k?
josh_today 5y ago
Why not pay the employees more and allow them to decide if college or something else is a priority for them?
- q1w2 5y ago
  For the same reason companies give perks of all kinds rather than simply giving employees cash. ...like having a free cafeteria or gym in the office. The perk provides a win-win by allowing for the company to have group bargaining power, as well as force the expenditure on something that also benefits the company. These programs are a win-win for the employee-employer relationship.
  - josh_today 5y ago
    Cafeterias and gyms within the office save employees time which then goes to working. Big win for the corporations. Going to college offsite, off hours doesn’t immediately benefit the corporation. The investment only benefits the company if the employee “moves up the ranks”. My understanding from the article is that the benefit is for front line employees. My guess is most do not care for college and would rather take in even 50% of the college tuition
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
antattack 5y ago
"As the employer, you may deduct the entire amount that you pay for the employee's educational costs as a business expense" So in a way it's tax payers who are paying for the education. How? Because more taxes have to be collected elsewhere.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  As a taxpayer I'm totally down with companies paying for 79% of education instead of 0%.
  - antattack 5y ago
    That's not how it works.
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      Of course it is. If Amazon didn't pay this education expense they'd pay 21% tax on that money. So the other 71% that would be profit for shareholders is now going to educating the public.
      - antattack 5y ago
        Which year did Amazon pay 21% in federal taxes in USA?
pokstad 5y ago
Companies paying for tuition is the right way to approach college for all. Amazon, Starbucks, and other institutions have the ability to drive down the cost of college through intelligent and forceful economies of scale.
dekhn 5y ago
I fully predict that people are going to find a way to spin this that "The COmpany Store is sending its employee to the Education Farm to learn to be Bezos Slaves".
kodah 5y ago
I'm skeptical of this. This is essentially the way the GIBill works. They give you just enough money for books and tuition, and rent (while you're actively in school) but for nothing else. I found myself completely exhausted trying to work full time and go to school full time and eventually dropped out. How the GI Bill works: https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-11/ https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-1...
- aperrien 5y ago
  Except that's not how the GI Bill works; it didn't work that way when I was using it.
  - kodah 5y ago
    I used Post-911 and that was exactly how it worked in 2013. Source: https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-11/ https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-1... There were some specific changes two years ago, but it doesn't look like it covers the problems I mentioned: https://www.benefits.va.gov/GIBILL/FGIBSummaries.asp https://www.benefits.va.gov/GIBILL/FGIBSummaries.asp Feel free to be specific beyond "That's not how the GI Bill works"
standardUser 5y ago
This reminds me of the millennial mantra that I've been seeing over the last year or two. Pay us more money. We don't want parties, prizes, perks or pizza. We want money. Determined to show you care about your employees? Pay them more money. Want to retain employees longer? Pay them more money. Want your employees to be able to afford education and health care? Pay. Them. More. Money.
- savanaly 5y ago
  If only actual wages were tax-deductible.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    Indeed, we have an elaborate government system designed to give businesses a thousand ways to reduce their tax liability, none of which include simply paying employees more money.
- arcturus17 5y ago
  What if the employer can buy for 20k, through scale, something that is worth 100k to you?
- prepend 5y ago
  These aren’t exclusive options. I’d rather have tuition than money because of tax advantages. Free college is free college. Paying me $1k extra to then pay taxes is less. Also, this is biased toward people who want degrees so if I use it, it’s way more than they would pay me. I’m not an anti-millennial (some of my favorite selves are millennials) but having absolutist mantras is stupid when it’s an alternative to having smarter, more beneficial work situations. I have a long list of things I’d rather have than money. I’d probably take a $30k pay cut to work remotely, for example.
  - standardUser 5y ago
    "I'd rather have tuition than money because of tax advantages" Right, government policy has created an incentive for you to desire an employer-linked scheme instead of higher wages. The employer gets a tax benefit, and you get a more limited and convoluted way of getting compensation.
neilv 5y ago
Tuition reimbursement from my employer is how I was eventually able to get a degree, for which I am very grateful. US societal questions aside for the moment, as a very pragmatic matter for individuals, this could be a great opportunity for many.
senectus1 5y ago
I don't understand why Amazon can't just start with "reasonable working standards and a reasonable living wage..." then creepily dick around with "bonus'" like paying for education etc. Just stop being a corporate dick. is that really so hard to be competitive and NOT also be a corp asshole?

248 points by infodocket 5y ago

Welcome to Costco, I love you.

Interesting to see that Amazon has a large focus on UX Design, which Grow.google also emphasizes. I interpret that as a signal that both of these companies see a gap there, although a hard one to train (or, harder to train than basic IT skills...) Can anybody comment on what the hiring needs and career path looks like at Google/Amazon at the moment?

floatingatoll 5y ago
To the first part, teaching people the concepts of UX design helps them communicate more clearly what’s difficult about their job and come up with innovations to automate that, which Amazon will then use without compensation to automate their job away.

kylegill 5y ago

It's strange to me working at a startup how vastly different the company programs are to support employees at enterprise level companies, the scale of this kind of program dwarfs our entire company many many times over. Maybe this program will go entirely unused like my $500 yearly education budget though.

forgetfulness 5y ago
A $500 won't even get you proper training or a certification from the vendor of that massive tool and/or service that your business relies on, that's why it goes unused. It's large enough that you feel like blowing it on a Coursera course or a book feels too little and small enough not to be of actual importance.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  Can I blow it on books? That sounds like enough for two of the ridiculously overpriced books I constantly eye.
  - maerF0x0 5y ago
    Dang, what kinda books you eyeing? Knuth's set was the most expensive one I've bought recently
leetcrew 5y ago
I suspect these benefits are pretty cheap to offer, at least most years. my employer has a fairly generous tuition reimbursement benefit, but people rarely use it. most people don't want to slowly chip away at a degree on top of a full-time job.

kadomony 5y ago

I think I'd rather just do the army for 4 years than work front-line for Amazon.

DSingularity 5y ago
Hyperbole?
- brezelgoring 5y ago
  Not as much as you'd think. Not all army work is frontline work. You could be a mechanic fixing Humvees, or a comms-operator being the receiver for a radio post. At least those are the posts I could fill, there's more for sure. I'd pick it any time over working for Big Jeff.
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    You can quit Amazon whenever you want. You can't quit the military.
    - sangnoir 5y ago
      If your aim is to get education benefits, then you can't quit Amazon anytime you want; you can only quit when you're done with school (typically 4 years)
      - cortesoft 5y ago
        That is a lot shorter amount of time than you are committed to the military
    - brezelgoring 5y ago
      I was putting both options side by side for a comparison, but you are strictly in the right with what you said. I still believe that for those that must choose between either option in order to access higher education with no option for an acceptable loan, it's not so clear to me that people (who am I kidding, able-bodied men) would choose Amazon first.

yboris 5y ago

How does this work? You need to be full-time at work, but also somehow manage college classes? How can you fit anything after an exhausting 40 hours of work per week?

aejnsn 5y ago
There are 128 hours left in a given 40-hour work week. Edit: funny the downvotes cannot disprove my simple math. :)
rareform 5y ago
> employees must continue working part-time or full-time at Amazon while taking classes. From: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/business/amazon-college-tuition-benefit-jobs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/business/amazon-college-tuiti...
ronnier 5y ago
I worked 40 hours a week and full time undergrad and grad school. You work, go to school when you aren't working and when you aren't doing either of those, you sit in the library and study.
- mabbo 5y ago
  When do you sleep? I worked part-time while an undergrad and it was almost too much for me.
  - dmoy 5y ago
    You would generally do part time undergrad and full time work.
  - ronnier 5y ago
    From midnight to 7:30 am
- TrueGeek 5y ago
  My wife is currently finishing her masters while working 40 hours a week and still being a mom. It's very stressful, but she's killing it. One of the harder parts (aside from the long nights) was finding an internship that was flexible with her schedule.

southphillyman 5y ago

Seems like this program will mostly reward those who can somehow survive the Amazon culture, similar to the way Amazon RSUs are back loaded for SWEs. If the accounts of Amazon front line workers having to pee in cups and being PIP'd for taking lunch breaks is true how could a significant % of workers maintain that level of workload while attending university?

leetrout 5y ago

> hundreds of education partners across the country Thats different than saying "any accredited institution". I wonder if it is only low cost educational programs...

pkulak 5y ago
Well, it does seem reasonable to put _some_ cost controls on it. Hopefully there's lots of great school on the list, but I very much doubt Dartmouth will make the cut.
- YPCrumble 5y ago
  Then the headline should read “Amazon to provide employee training” or something along those lines. As it is this is just corporate clickbait.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    No, it's not. An education at Random State College is still rather more than "employee training".
    - Frost1x 5y ago
      Not to Amazon it's not, but you won't see that in their propoganda. Even Random State Community College is likely a better education (this is not meant as a backhanded compliment to community colleges, which are at least honest and respectable about what they provide and don't).
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        But if I'm getting the education, for free, why do I care whether it serves as employee training to Amazon? And, community colleges provide a better education than state colleges? Seriously? Do you have any evidence for that position?

_understood_ 5y ago

Add this to the growing list of retail (retail focused) organizations already employing this method for employee retention/acquisition: https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22627543/free-online-college-program-workers-target-walmart https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22627543/free-online-college-p... Also, I'll admit that in my current company it is a royal PITA to submit for EDU reimbursement and I would love to have a lower barrier of entry for enrollment friction, etc..

tinyhouse 5y ago

Sounds like a fantastic initiative. Kudos to Amazon. However, I still think that something like college education should be a government priority rather than a company benefit.

gzu 5y ago

This year with the labor shortage has shown we need more "basic" employees getting a livable wage than a country full of college educated students chasing white collar positions

lotsofpulp 5y ago
This is Amazon attempting to attract more “basic” employees by increasing compensation. Amazon is hoping this program is attractive enough that they do not have to raise cash compensation as much, since these types of strings attached, reimbursement type compensation schemes are vastly cheaper than cash compensation. It is somewhat beneficial for employees if they were already going to be working a job while going to a school Amazon will pay for, since their tuition would be paid with pre tax dollars.

phelm 5y ago

looks like they will do anything to avoid paying their employees properly

gruez 5y ago
I suspect it's not because of some nefarious plan to "avoid paying their employees properly" but rather it's more tax efficient to pay for their employees' education (because the compensation isn't subject to payroll tax?).
- adventured 5y ago
  That's correct. Amazon can deduct the education benefit as a business expense and up to $5,250 is not subject to payroll tax. Neither the employee nor Amazon have to pay taxes on anything up to that sum. Given the continuing-to-soar cost of education, I'd expect Congress to considerably increase that number. People will increasingly get chained to jobs for education cost reasons like they already are for healthcare cost reasons.

adolph 5y ago

I wonder what the tax implications are for employees. A limit at my employer's education reimbursement program is said to be about a threshold over which the reimbursement becomes taxable. Edit: Here is a claim that is similar: As stated above, any amount of tuition reimbursement that exceeds $5,250 is considered a fringe benefit of the job, and the employee will have to pay taxes on that amount. However, if an employee is taking a class related to their job or career, they can declare that their tuition is a work-related expense, thus making it tax-exempt. However, the employee should be prepared to prove that each class they take helps them improve at their job and benefits the company. Otherwise, the money will be considered taxable income. https://study.com/academy/popular/is-tuition-reimbursement-taxable.html https://study.com/academy/popular/is-tuition-reimbursement-t...

lotsofpulp 5y ago
Is tuition reimbursement treated differently than Amazon paying the school directly? > Pre-paid fees. Amazon will pay employees’ tuition and fees in advance rather than offering reimbursement after coursework completion, ensuring employees don’t need existing funds to start accessing the education options they want.
- twoslide 5y ago
  I don't think it matters how the payment is made. Trump's former CFO is now facing charges for having his grandkid's tuition fees paid, but not declared as compensation. It's a bit different, but comparable.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    It seems the limit is $5,250, unless the education qualifies as a "working condition benefit": https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2021_publink1000193667 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2021_publink1000...
darthvoldemort 5y ago
When my tuition was reimbursed almost 20 years ago, it was at that $5250 level. I'm shocked that the limit hasn't increased, given that tuition everywhere has more than doubled since then.

gootler 5y ago

Yeah, right. Why don't they just unionize?

hateful 5y ago

You definitely have to watch the fine print with these things. During my first professional job, I didn't have any degrees (I still don't, but I used to not, also) my employer offered "tuition reimbursement". The stipulation was that the class had to be job related. Not the degree, but the class. So I ended up having to take VB6 (yes, this was 20 years ago) as an elective, since that's what I did at my job (and already knew how to do - I'm not exaggerating when I said I learned nothing new in that class - think, how to add a text box to a form when I was doing very complicated file processing in my day job). But they wouldn't pay for the programming 101 class, let alone any liberal arts credits. I took to calling it "Training Reimbursement".

brianwawok 5y ago
The IRS guideline as I understand it, is the DEGREE must be job related. Obviously a job could be more strict (but likely not less strict) than the IRS. Like, basically anyone could expense a business degree. Job related? Doing better at business. But if you are a grocery store stocking shelves, you couldn't submit to the IRS college tuition for say an engineering degree. But within that, it should be all classes. So if you are a self-taught programmer and going to school for a computer science degree, it's OK there is a class in public speaking or chemistry. As long as the degree itself is for something that you can justify as job related. * Not a lawyer, hire a pro before offering tuition reimbursement to make sure you don't run afoul with IRS requirements
- syshum 5y ago
  Also not a lawyer, but my understanding is that Job Related only applies if you want to deduct the education expenses from your income taxes. Employers can provide up to $5,250 in reimbursement tax free for all qualified programs regardless of the programs relation to the job Over that amount it becomes a fringe benefit subject to income taxation, however if it is job related it can be deducted as an expenses for the employee making it tax free
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  IRS requirements would be what you can deduct for offering to employees, not what the employer is required to offer

barbazoo 5y ago

> Amazon is now the largest job creator in the U.S., and we know that investing in free skills training for our teams can have a huge impact for hundreds of thousands of families across the country The impact being them being able to eventually escape the minimum wage slavery that is working for Amazon?

jeffy90 5y ago
doesn't amazon exceed minimum wage for almost all employees?

sriram_sun 5y ago

Not sure how much this pertains to Amazon's employees, but regarding costs, you can get an engineering degree from Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo for 4 - 5x less than UC (LA, SD or Berkeley) and still get a really good education. I guess provide an environment and qualified teaching staff, it's up to the student to make best use of it. Research of course, might be a different ball game.

josuepeq 5y ago

With annual 100%-150% turnover rates* Amazon needs to figure out some way to keep people around and engaged. They’re simply running out of Americans to employ who are willing to work such a physically demanding job for peanuts. Their biggest competitor for employees in many places in America is Wal-Mart; and they’ve been offering this for a while now.

n8cpdx 5y ago
Peanuts being more than twice minimum wage.
q1w2 5y ago
Peanuts? In my area Amazon pays between $19-$21/hr for entry level / no education required, positions. This is significantly higher than most other entry level jobs in the area.

belval 5y ago

The comments here are disheartening. I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things? Also for those complaining about the 40hrs/week then you have part-time school on top: this is actually something that a lot of people do. My engineering university is somewhat known for this in Canada, you have classes at 6PM every day of the week + on Saturday. It is absolutely exhausting but everyone in my class that was in that particular situation was more than happy to have the opportunity to do it even if they were +30 years old. At the end of the program they get to be in a much better financial situation and guarantee a better future for their family.

Mizza 5y ago
"Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good.” - Oscar Wilde Just as America has the bizarre situation of healthcare being tied to employment, we may end up in the same situation for education, where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service.
- gruez 5y ago
  >where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon But that's literally not what's happening? >Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years.
  - Mizza 5y ago
    Yeah, but you'd be given room and board rather than a wage. It's indentured servitude with extra steps.
    - gruez 5y ago
      Is all employment "indentured servitude with extra step" since the wages from your employment is used to pay for "room and board"?

Lamad123 5y ago

Can amozon extend the magnanimity to allow its poor warehouse workers to have decent bathroom breaks!!?

rejectedandsad 5y ago

Man, if only they were willing to pay for a masters for me... but I guess I don't matter.

OOvsuOO 5y ago

what is "Front-Line" there's no front line at amazon. it's all distributed. I haven't read article FYI. That headline is funny.

melenaboija 5y ago

Coming from a country where education is public by default it feels weird society relies on private companies to provide basics. You still have what you "deserve", if you have done the effort to enter and work with a specific company you have free education, otherwise keep looking for better luck. Yes, it is better than nothing but IMHO is another way to concentrate power.

plandis 5y ago
I’ve always wondered about this. There are absolutely no strings attached? Even if I’m terrible academically and barely passed school I can still get the state to pay for me to likely just fail university?
- melenaboija 5y ago
  Not exactly. In Spain where I am from the cost of college is something like €2000 per year (approx, depends on degree). That is for your first attempt, which means if you pass everything the total cost could be 8000 for the degree. If you fail a class and have to take it again, besides gpa, the price increments, and keeps incrementing for each attempt until you reach almost the real cost of that class. Some other things to note: - public schools usually have better recognition than private ones, for things such mba's may be different - the government can help with the tuition fee depending on the financial situation, meaning you can get the degree for free - if you get the max score in one class you get that fee back, so if you get max scores in all classes you can also get the degree for free
  - plandis 5y ago
    Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think it’s a great idea to base fees based on your performance in classes after you’ve actually finished it. In the US there are plenty of scholarships but you need to have demonstrated prior achievement which shuts the doors for many people who don’t excel until they get to college (although, admittedly there are few people in this group).

OOvsuOO 5y ago

Where is the "Front-Line" there's none! LOL that is funny.

mrtweetyhack 5y ago

Nice marketing. All they have to do is hire people already with degrees...as if they don't already

ransom1538 5y ago

lol. Transfer taxes they didn't pay for front-line employees to front-line employees. [Minus the cut for profit obviously]. Well played.

gruez 5y ago
The government wants to incentivize companies to pay for their worker's education, and amazon's taking up on their offer. What's the issue here? Are you also against individuals transferring "taxes they didn't pay" to their retirement fund, by contributing to their 401k?

josh_today 5y ago

Why not pay the employees more and allow them to decide if college or something else is a priority for them?

q1w2 5y ago
For the same reason companies give perks of all kinds rather than simply giving employees cash. ...like having a free cafeteria or gym in the office. The perk provides a win-win by allowing for the company to have group bargaining power, as well as force the expenditure on something that also benefits the company. These programs are a win-win for the employee-employer relationship.
- josh_today 5y ago
  Cafeterias and gyms within the office save employees time which then goes to working. Big win for the corporations. Going to college offsite, off hours doesn’t immediately benefit the corporation. The investment only benefits the company if the employee “moves up the ranks”. My understanding from the article is that the benefit is for front line employees. My guess is most do not care for college and would rather take in even 50% of the college tuition
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

antattack 5y ago

"As the employer, you may deduct the entire amount that you pay for the employee's educational costs as a business expense" So in a way it's tax payers who are paying for the education. How? Because more taxes have to be collected elsewhere.

colinmhayes 5y ago
As a taxpayer I'm totally down with companies paying for 79% of education instead of 0%.
- antattack 5y ago
  That's not how it works.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Of course it is. If Amazon didn't pay this education expense they'd pay 21% tax on that money. So the other 71% that would be profit for shareholders is now going to educating the public.
    - antattack 5y ago
      Which year did Amazon pay 21% in federal taxes in USA?

pokstad 5y ago

Companies paying for tuition is the right way to approach college for all. Amazon, Starbucks, and other institutions have the ability to drive down the cost of college through intelligent and forceful economies of scale.

dekhn 5y ago

I fully predict that people are going to find a way to spin this that "The COmpany Store is sending its employee to the Education Farm to learn to be Bezos Slaves".

kodah 5y ago

I'm skeptical of this. This is essentially the way the GIBill works. They give you just enough money for books and tuition, and rent (while you're actively in school) but for nothing else. I found myself completely exhausted trying to work full time and go to school full time and eventually dropped out. How the GI Bill works: https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-11/ https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-1...

aperrien 5y ago
Except that's not how the GI Bill works; it didn't work that way when I was using it.
- kodah 5y ago
  I used Post-911 and that was exactly how it worked in 2013. Source: https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-11/ https://www.va.gov/education/about-gi-bill-benefits/post-9-1... There were some specific changes two years ago, but it doesn't look like it covers the problems I mentioned: https://www.benefits.va.gov/GIBILL/FGIBSummaries.asp https://www.benefits.va.gov/GIBILL/FGIBSummaries.asp Feel free to be specific beyond "That's not how the GI Bill works"

standardUser 5y ago

This reminds me of the millennial mantra that I've been seeing over the last year or two. Pay us more money. We don't want parties, prizes, perks or pizza. We want money. Determined to show you care about your employees? Pay them more money. Want to retain employees longer? Pay them more money. Want your employees to be able to afford education and health care? Pay. Them. More. Money.

savanaly 5y ago
If only actual wages were tax-deductible.
- standardUser 5y ago
  Indeed, we have an elaborate government system designed to give businesses a thousand ways to reduce their tax liability, none of which include simply paying employees more money.
arcturus17 5y ago
What if the employer can buy for 20k, through scale, something that is worth 100k to you?
prepend 5y ago
These aren’t exclusive options. I’d rather have tuition than money because of tax advantages. Free college is free college. Paying me $1k extra to then pay taxes is less. Also, this is biased toward people who want degrees so if I use it, it’s way more than they would pay me. I’m not an anti-millennial (some of my favorite selves are millennials) but having absolutist mantras is stupid when it’s an alternative to having smarter, more beneficial work situations. I have a long list of things I’d rather have than money. I’d probably take a $30k pay cut to work remotely, for example.
- standardUser 5y ago
  "I'd rather have tuition than money because of tax advantages" Right, government policy has created an incentive for you to desire an employer-linked scheme instead of higher wages. The employer gets a tax benefit, and you get a more limited and convoluted way of getting compensation.

neilv 5y ago

Tuition reimbursement from my employer is how I was eventually able to get a degree, for which I am very grateful. US societal questions aside for the moment, as a very pragmatic matter for individuals, this could be a great opportunity for many.

senectus1 5y ago

I don't understand why Amazon can't just start with "reasonable working standards and a reasonable living wage..." then creepily dick around with "bonus'" like paying for education etc. Just stop being a corporate dick. is that really so hard to be competitive and NOT also be a corp asshole?