34 ms·

My mouse driver is asking for a firewall exemption (2019)

1137 points by Tijdreiziger 5y ago

blueflow 5y ago
Can we have twitter banned from being posted here? On all UI clicks, a nagging window comes up. You can click it away, but it *reverts your click*, so any kind of navigation becomes really cumbersome.
- jstanley 5y ago
  Here's a workaround: once the nag window comes up, refresh the page, and then you get to look at what you clicked on.
- tester34 5y ago
  or twitter urls being replaced with some twitter2readable converter
- Semaphor 5y ago
  I hate twitter, but just foone alone makes the effort worth it for me.
- lostgame 5y ago
  HN, for whatever unbelievable reason - supports paywalled articles you can’t even read without subscriptions. I hardly think they’ll stop approving Twitter threads here. At least they’re readable without hacks or workarounds.
anotheraccount9 5y ago
It must be a multiuser mouse.
- ackbar03 5y ago
  I presume other user is NSA?
  - SevenSigs 5y ago
    Why would they need that when they already have low level access to your computer?
    - npmaile 5y ago
      just for fun
      - Ensorceled 5y ago
        stay in game shape
bane 5y ago
The rest of the thread is an interesting look at how an attempt to protect their devices actually revealed several hidden ones.
linker3000 5y ago
Ah, mice... "Need local admin and have physical access? ..." https://twitter.com/j0nh4t/status/1429049506021138437 https://twitter.com/j0nh4t/status/1429049506021138437
- OGWhales 5y ago
  Related post to the one you linked: https://twitter.com/an0n_r0/status/1429386474902917124 https://twitter.com/an0n_r0/status/1429386474902917124
  - linker3000 5y ago
    Yes, I saw that for the first time moments after I posted my comment!
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  It is pretty trivial to get local admin on any desktop or workstation with physical access, though typically doing so requires at least one reboot. User accounts are basically worthless, from a security standpoint, in that scenario.
  - shawnz 5y ago
    It's not trivial, and even so that's not a reason to discredit this particular vulnerability just because others also exist. What is the point of downplaying local privilege escalation vulnerabilities just because it's a hard scenario to defend against?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      > It's not trivial In my experience, it is in fact pretty trivial. I'm not saying it shouldn't be fixed, I'm saying it isn't nrealy as big a deal as people are making it out to be. The infosec community likes to latch on to any little vulnerability it can and act like the sky is falling even if, when taken in context, said vulnerability is only a problem in narrow use cases or requires the target to pretty much already be completely exploited.
toxik 5y ago
Refuse to buy products like this, please. We don't need our USB mice turning into printer-level headaches.
- Silhouette 5y ago
  I'd love to but there mostly seem to be two separate markets now. You can have cheap junk with minimal features or you can have "gamer" hardware with an extra 0 on the price, components that might be much better but sometimes aren't, the kind of driver hell we're talking about, and lots of coloured lights. I miss the days when Logitech made great, comfortable mice for normal desktop use, with a small number of useful extra controls and a minimal driver and UI to choose what they did. I miss the days when you could buy a comfortable typist's keyboard for a sensible amount of money. I literally don't know a single brand that reliably makes good keyboards and mice for normal use any more. Every single one (and I've tried most of the big names) produces junk. Even in the £100+ range that is supposed to be high-end hardware, I have probably returned more than half of the products I've bought in the past few years because they had obvious serious defects out of the box or developed them within a few months of normal use.
  - ashtonbaker 5y ago
    I have a Ducky One keyboard, very simple, mechanical keys, well built, no RGB, no additional drivers, and doesn’t seem like it will quit working any time soon.
    - nthn_g 5y ago
      I too have a Ducky, RGB (though with no computer software, purely keyboard controlled). Spilled coffee over it 2 times, cleaned it, still works. Can recommend!
  - h2odragon 5y ago
    FYI: Unicomp still makes Model M keyboards (with USB! and Windows keys! if you want them); and Elecom trackballs are wonderful I'm hard on that stuff; i killed multiple original 90's manufactured Model M's and wore out a stack of MS trackballs over those 2 decades. One of the fancy logitech "G" blinky lights keyboards lasted less than 3mo under my hands. Kensington cheap trackballs quit moving right in days and stop working in months.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
spcebar 5y ago
Before jumping in and complaining about the Twitter format, jump to the bottom of the twitter thread where someone has almost certainly unrolled it. And remember Foone hates being linked on hacker news and didn't ask to be here.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  How do I get to the bottom? It seems to have doom scrolling.
  - mellavora 5y ago
    well, obviously, you use the scroll wheel .. on your . ... ...
  - mekkkkkk 5y ago
    Nitpick: You probably meant to write "endless scroll" or "infinite scroll". "Doom scrolling" is a verb for obsessively browsing bad news.
    - Lammy 5y ago
      You can't have the behavior without the mechanism. To me "doom scrolling" is infinite scrolling plus algorithmically-sorted feed, way worse than infinitely-scrolling a chronological feed where people will stop and go do something else as soon as they see anything for a second time.
      - Ensorceled 5y ago
        But that is NOT what it means to everybody else, so you will confuse people if you use it "your" way.
- tomrod 5y ago
  Why does the author's desire for community discussion factor in -- is that internet etiquette now?
darkteflon 5y ago
The 3rd party mouse situation on Macs is totally out of control. I recently bought a Logitech G Pro X Superlight to use as my daily driver on an M1 Mac. The mouse, it’s amazing. But Logitech’s software is a fucking car crash. A casual perusal of Reddit and customer forums will confirm. Runs as root, Sensor DPI won’t stay set, on-board mode flat out doesn’t work, requires manually setting permissions on a config file in order to save settings (!), etc. After struggling with it for several days - including trying to set it up in on-board mode on a Windows PC before bringing it across - to no avail, I finally came across Steermouse (http://www.plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/index.html http://www.plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/index.html). Was then able to fine tune cursor and scroll wheel speed and acceleration, middle and back / forward button customisations, etc. Nuked Logitech’s crap from orbit and never looked back. I’ve had similar experiences over the years with multiple Logitech mice on multiple Intel Macs - mostly using Logitech Options instead of GHub. You just can never get it quite right. So, PSA: if you’re on a Mac (AS or Intel), own a Logitech mouse and fucking hate your life, try your luck with Logitech’s software. Otherwise, get Steermouse. EDIT: Forgot to mention: if all you want is button customisation and you don’t want to pay for Steermouse, Karabiner-Elements is free and will have you covered. You may already be using it anyway to, eg, remap your Caps key. It can’t do cursor or scroll wheel adjustments, though.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  Huh, interesting. I have an older Logitech G700s mouse, so it uses the older Logitech software. I never had any issue with it on a Mac. I only used it occasionally to adjust the onboard settings, and then forget about it for years on end. I now have a G703 (so new G Hub software) and while I haven't tried that on the Mac, I can configure the onboard settings from Windows or from Linux [0] with no issues whatsoever (aside from setting a button to show the battery level, which, for some reason, doesn't work). --- [0] The Logitech software doesn't work on Linux, but Piper/ratbag work just fine. https://github.com/libratbag/piper https://github.com/libratbag/piper
  - ratww 5y ago
    > The Logitech software doesn't work on Linux This is funny, considering it's an Electron app. They just didn't take the time to port, apparently.
dstick 5y ago
Looks like he had a lot of fun getting to the bottom of it :) https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1146136251449278466 https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1146136251449278466
- faho 5y ago
  (The bio lists pronouns - they had a lot of fun)
papito 5y ago
Guess what? Hot off the press. "Razer mouse software bug easily grants Windows admin privileges" https://www.slashgear.com/razer-mouse-software-bug-easily-grants-windows-admin-privileges-22688008/ https://www.slashgear.com/razer-mouse-software-bug-easily-gr...
- binkHN 5y ago
  Love Razer mice, but never install their software. And, yes, the way their installer starts via Windows Update should be prevented by Windows.
- r1ch 5y ago
  I'd bet good money that there are hundreds if not thousands of other buggy installers lurking on windows update, just waiting for the right hardware id to appear. Yes, this is a bit of a shortcut, but not really any different than booting from a USB drive and changing the admin password. Adding Bitlocker to the mix is where it starts to get interesting.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  I can't imagine blaming this one on Razer. It's a fundamental defect in Windows.
- jwilk 5y ago
  Another article on the same topic discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28273283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28273283
Svperstar 5y ago
I have been using Zowie mice for years. Plug and play NO software to download. Best mice for FPS I have ever used.
- skyfaller 5y ago
  I'll second this. I've had a Zowie FK1 since 2015 (when I was serious about playing Dota 2) and it's still going strong.
rafaelturk 5y ago
Startup idea: Subscription mouse.
- SevenSigs 5y ago
  sell mouse movements to drug companies so that they know who to show Parkinson disease ads to...
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    Also plenty of companies might be interested in what you're looking at when you switch to using the mouse with your non-dominant hand.
    - SevenSigs 5y ago
      https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8753904794965d5b01cf3ed3da6b6df3-c https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8753904794965d5b01cf3e...
- ummwhat 5y ago
  I want to renew my subscription, but I can't click renew.
  - gpderetta 5y ago
    Don't worry, the mouse will click it for you, automatically!
    - falcolas 5y ago
      It has a dedicated “renew/upgrade” button, conveniently located where the left click button used to be.
  - noisy_boy 5y ago
    The maas (mouse-as-a-service) requires that you install the companion app through which you can activate your mouse and conveniently renew. It does require access to contacts, media and location services though but you can trust them.
jmuguy 5y ago
One reason, among many, to avoid products marketed towards gamers.
- bradstewart 5y ago
  Interestingly enough, the only reasonably high DPI mouse manufacturer I've found that actually has functional config software on Mac is Steelseries.
- darkteflon 5y ago
  In principle agree, but I recently switched to a Logitech G Pro X Superlight to use exclusively as a work mouse, and for me the 63g weight trumps everything about “business” mice. Over the years I’ve owned MX Masters, Marathons, Triathlons, Microsoft mice and others. The Superlight - for me personally - is substantially better for work applications than any other mouse I’ve ever used. It’s so comfortable and precise. Kicking myself for not switching earlier. EDIT: Subject to my comments above about Logitech software on Macs.
  - benhurmarcel 5y ago
    It’s a shame they went with an outdated charging port. Probably to have something easy to upgrade on the next version.
- mekkkkkk 5y ago
  IMO there are a lot of quality products in the gaming segment. The main problem is that the segment is bloated by so many "X but with LEDs and a higher price tag". You just have to do a bit more research before any purchase.
- ezconnect 5y ago
  Gamer mouse are actually very tough and last a long time, like 5 to 10 years. The software usually is the first to break during the years of usage. Since 2000 I only bought 3 Logitech mouse and once tried Razor but the button double clicked broke in just a few months and never tried them again. All 3 Logitech mouse still works except for the oldest one because the drivers don't work anymore and I can't use the extra buttons, but as a mouse it still works.
ubermonkey 5y ago
Christ, what a nightmare. I'm lucky I guess in that my mouse preference is actually the Apple mouse. I've tried a bunch of others of the years and keep coming back to it. I'm definitely aware of the shitshow that is peripheral drivers. It's always been bad, but now it's just awful awful awful. Even if someone introduced a mouse that appealed to me, I'd be hard pressed to bother given my suspicion that the software required would be terrible.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
  Are you referring to the default Apple corded mouse they ship with iMacs or the Magic Mouse? Magic Mouse is nice, but of course isn’t for everyone. I have it for my dev machines but trying to use it for playing most types of reaction style games is a nightmare. BootCamp driver compatibility is also not really there. I have never been able to get my Magic Mouse to scroll using the touch motion on Windows, for instance.
  - robin_reala 5y ago
    Apple hasn’t shipped a corded mouse for four years.
    - spijdar 5y ago
      For anyone else momentarily confused by this, they stopped selling the last corded mouse four years ago, but haven't bundled a corded mouse with any computer since 2009 AFAIK. Which makes the comment about "corded mouse they ship with iMacs" feel even older.
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
        Interesting, I could have sworn they were bundling the corded mouse with iMacs circa 2015. Are you sure about your comment about bundling? In any event, yes I did not know they stopped shipping them but that is only a good thing. I think the polite way to describe the quality of those mice is not very good. Several more impolite terms come to mind.
6510 5y ago
When the USB standard took over the galaxy I was baffled. I mean, what could possibly go wrong here? <hysterical-laughter>
- 6510 5y ago
  In my book A mouse should be 3 buttons, 3 potentiometers, 7 wires, a plug and a plastic box. Worse that can happen is a short connecting all wires together - then nothing bad happens to the computer. Nothing! The PS/2 DIN was already doing more than I wanted, bi-directional communication is already more than you need to make the device work. Perhaps there are exotic mice to be had that deserve to communicate over USB, with elaborate drivers and all the trimmings. Internet connectivity, bootloaders, flashing leds etc. Ofc you would have to have an USB port to use those which can be undesirable You can plug anything into those. Next the user will download software from the internet and install it. Wild concept. lol
VortexDream 5y ago
I use the Malwarebytes Windows Firewall Control. It's always interesting to see what applications or services are making internet requests. Much of it ends up being Windows services, but still.
kop316 5y ago
What gets me the most is seeing something like piper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27871956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27871956 Where its (mainly) one person in their spare time that is able to put these official drivers to shame.
- vanderZwan 5y ago
  Isn't it quite common for open source hardware drivers to have an effective bus factor of one? (as in, yes it's open source but only one dev has the deep familiarity with the topic required for fast updates) Like, weren't practically all Linux webcam drivers implemented by one French guy at some point?
  - kop316 5y ago
    > Isn't it quite common for open source hardware drivers to have an effective bus factor of one? (as in, yes it's open source but only one dev has the deep familiarity with the topic required for fast updates) It's usually common for one person to be motivated enough to do the work, so they are the ones most knowledgeable yeah. But the code is out there, it doesn't stop anyone else from looking at it/understanding it just as well. From the looks of piper, it looks like several folks understood it enough to add drivers of their own. > Like, weren't practically all Linux webcam drivers implemented by one French guy at some point? I really don't know.
alpaca128 5y ago
Meanwhile I wish they'd still sell the Roccat Savu. I bought it on a sale and it turned out to be the most ergonomic mouse I've used so far. Runs perfectly fine without the official drivers and the few extra buttons have decent default settings. But I usually avoid "gaming" hardware. Even if it's not overpriced it rarely looks good and has the same quality at best.
izacus 5y ago
Well, I'm sure Logitech was sensible like most HackerNews developers and saved costs by using Electron for their driver. This gives you a nice 300MB+ base package to drive the UI with a lot of unneeded code (most likely asking for the firewall permissions) and then additional actual driver download. I'm sure that allowed them to iterate quickly, hire developers who know nothing but JS to build their driver package and ship the MVP with low costs! Isn't that the type of software that keeps being defended here? ^^
- Kaze404 5y ago
  ...Logitech?
  - sundvor 5y ago
    Logitech software might be bloated, but it's downright lean compared to the Roccat mouse I just got for my son.
  - izacus 5y ago
    Both Roccat and Logitech are horrible in this regard. I skipped a thought mostly because I had to deal with Logitech crap the latest.
- williamtwild 5y ago
  "like most HackerNews developers" What are you babbling on about?
  - chapium 5y ago
    Seriously, I would have assumed Rust, Elm, Julia, D, or Zig if that were the case.
- K5EiS 5y ago
  The driver is from Roccat, not Logitech.
- staticassertion 5y ago
tumblewit 5y ago
This reminds me of Windows 10 itself. A fresh install of windows 10 has all its builtin apps including the calculator (for currency I am guessing) allowed through the firewall by default. In the security world, the default should be off and only upon request should an app allowed to talk over the network. Not to mention the fact that apps like Facebook messenger are installed by default in Windows. Microsoft can sell me their operating system in a minute if they just stop all the stupid telemetry, remove the bloat and by default turn all privacy and security options to on and not off. It's not a bad operating system for most people, it's just a privacy nightmare that Microsoft seems to be fine with somehow. Because no matter what your privacy 'policy' is, the best policy is to not collect any data at all.
- Denvercoder9 5y ago
  > In the security world, the default should be off and only upon request should an app allowed to talk over the network. I'd argue that reasonable defaults are better. Asking permission for everything, including features most to all people would find necessary, just creates decision fatigue and results in people clicking "allow" on every popup.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    I think the only reasonable default is to not talk unless I've given permission for it to do so. But I recognize that I'm in the minority. So much so that I can't trust software to behave itself, so I've had to use my firewall to disable all outbound traffic by default, so I can add exceptions as needed. It's amazing how rarely such exceptions are actually needed.
    - __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
      I'm with you. Paranoid defaults should be the default defaults Although I'd still like to be able to opt-in to reasonable defaults if I trust that my OS's non-default default decisions are indeed reasonable.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
dec0dedab0de 5y ago
I wish USB devices just came with read only storage that had the drivers
- Denvercoder9 5y ago
  I wish most USB devices wouldn't need drivers at all, and just use standard interfaces. It's a mouse, we've been making them for half a century, why could it possibly need a custom protocol?
  - queuebert 5y ago
    I've never installed the drivers for my mice. They all point and quite often click.
  - dec0dedab0de 5y ago
    That is a good point, but that would limit things to the standards. Sure, things that are standard should use standard interfaces, and I bet this mouse works perfectly fine with the standard interface, but adds some extra functionality beyond that. Granted, it's absurd it needs internet access, I'm just saying that regardless of how well they are written, it would be nice if some drivers were available from the device itself.
    - Denvercoder9 5y ago
      What functionality can a mouse have that couldn't have been standardized 20 years ago? I haven't encountered a mouse that had more than some sort of pointing device, scrollwheels, buttons and possibly some LEDs.
      - the_only_law 5y ago
        > What functionality can a mouse have that couldn't have been standardized 20 years ago? Apparently there are some wacky domain specific mice: https://3dconnexion.com/uk/product/spacemouse-enterprise/ https://3dconnexion.com/uk/product/spacemouse-enterprise/
sschueller 5y ago
I can't find it online because of all the current mouse freezing issues but I recall that the very old macs (late 80s) would freeze on mouse down until you let go of the button.
skyfaller 5y ago
For anyone interested in open hardware mice, I have to recommend Ploopy: https://ploopy.co/ https://ploopy.co/ Plug-and-play, flash your own firmware if you like. Current models ship with QMK (open firmware), although I believe my older trackball didn't, I'd have to flash it. I have both a left-handed trackball (rare!) and a right-handed mouse from them, I like to alternate. Two obvious complaints: - They're really expensive - They're 3D-printed, which means manufacturing isn't polished. My trackball had a sticky mousewheel, which I ultimately had to buy a replacement for and swap out. My mouse has some rough edges I haven't filed down yet, and the 3D-printed texture may not be for everyone. The good news is that it's easy to make replacement parts and repairs yourself! Still, I wish they would make mass-produced versions with more conventional and precise manufacturing techniques, just with the option to 3D-print your own parts if you feel like it / need to. Maybe that would bring the price down while also improving build quality.
- nabakin 5y ago
  I can't connect to your link
  - trey-jones 5y ago
    Wordpress DB is down. Did we kill it?
    - nabakin 5y ago
      I first clicked the link only 2-4 minutes after it was posted and it was down so I doubt
    - rcoveson 5y ago
      Welp, LAMP stack doesn't scale. Time to hire some microservices teams and set up a k8s cluster.
      - nix23 5y ago
        >Welp, LAMP stack doesn't scale Tell that wikipedia ;)
gtsteve 5y ago
Yes, this is why I don't buy Razer equipment anymore. No, I do not want to sign up for a Razer account so I can control my DPI settings! Not only that, it automatically installed the software somehow when I plugged it in, which I didn't want.
matoro 5y ago
I have this same mouse. It works perfectly fine as an HID-compliant mouse on Linux, including the forward/back buttons. You only need all that crap if you want to control the rainbow RGB lighting. And if you really that, there's a reverse-engineered driver here: http://roccat.sourceforge.net/ http://roccat.sourceforge.net/
- floatboth 5y ago
  There's also libratbag, which contains RGB/DPI/extra-button/etc control for a variety of mice from many many vendors
  - RealStickman_ 5y ago
    If you want a graphical frontend for libratbag there's piper.
- arendtio 5y ago
  You might want to add, that Roccat supported the reverse engineering effort in this case by providing hardware and approving the use of certain sound files: > The reversed hardware is kindly provided by Roccat. > The sound files and the Roccat logo are property of Roccat and are used with their approval. A few years back, I owned a Roccat mouse myself and was delighted to find a decent Linux driver for it.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  If you only cared about the basic functions, you could have got a much cheaper mouse.
  - wruza 5y ago
    Since when RGB Rainbow became Enhanced Function and dpi/buttons/accel/grip/etc became basic?
    - stavros 5y ago
      Well, since every mouse has dpi/buttons/axxel/grip/etc and not all mouses have RGB Rainbow.
randomtandom 5y ago
Xtrfy ftw
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gruez 5y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ekimekim 5y ago
  The driver itself is HTTP, not HTTPS. They were saying they hoped that the HTTPS call which tells it where to download the driver also contained signatures so that the later HTTP request could be verified. spoilers: it does not. So you don't need to mitm the HTTPS request, you just wait until they make the follow-up HTTP request, mitm that and serve whatever you want.
- addingnumbers 5y ago
  The answer is in the sentence immediately before where you started copying > ... and then it downloads the drivers/updates off of media.roccat. org using HTTP.
snarfy 5y ago
All of Razer's products are like that. I've been boycotting them since their keyboard wanted me to sign in to use my function keys.
- isolli 5y ago
  I had trouble believing you at first, but yeah... https://twitter.com/mark_roszko/status/1429459359554224135 https://twitter.com/mark_roszko/status/1429459359554224135
- ezconnect 5y ago
  I stopped using mine when I installed their software that requires login to use the mouse 2 extra buttons. It was brand new.
- nottorp 5y ago
  Yep, don't forget that Razer were there first. Does the Roccat software even require registration, or it's just bloated because that's all they could do? I'd even say Razer wins on assholery.
- hbn 5y ago
  I can never forget this classic video of Jonathan Blow trying a new Razer keyboard (worth it to stay tuned to the very end) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UGO3EG5DC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UGO3EG5DC8
  - user3939382 5y ago
    That was fantastic. I wish I could watch Razer's executive team react to this video. I feel like many of us have this kind of experience with hardware and software but it's always a private suffering.
  - flyinghamster 5y ago
    > "My preferred keyboard is one that doesn't have a user experience." Truer words have never been spoken. It's a crying shame that "caveat emptor" has become so thoroughly ingrained in the tech scene. More and more, I see some gizmo that seems interesting, take a deeper look, and run away screaming when I find out what a crawling horror it really is.
55555 5y ago
I don't use Twitter, so this is new to me, but I found this to be interesting because it's not your standard blog post turned into a tweet storm; it's a livestream over text. It's an altogether different experience. I rarely see a livestream over text.
st_goliath 5y ago
> todo item added: Figure out a way to mass-download all the auto-updating drivers > todo item added: Start sniffing the protocol this tool uses to reprogram the mouse so I can build a cross-platform tool for it. This does sound like an intriguing idea. For all those crappy Windows drivers that come with an 300 MiB+ Electron based configuration UI, auto updater, etc... figure out how to get the actual driver binaries and build a script that downloads and repackages them using NSIS. One could in theory build some kind of Qemu based sandbox framework that snapshots the disk and extracts the binaries after installation. Tricking the updater into actually installing the driver inside a VM without the hardware might be a bit tricky, but depending on how they do the check (e.g. look if the USB ID is present?), I guess it should be doable and might be a bit easier than the reverse engineering approach in this Twitter thread (and also easier to automate, so it does not just work for this particular device). I fear the biggest challenge for such a project would be dealing with the hardware vendors legal department though.
- megous 5y ago
  Or just reverse their stupid ass USB protocol, and don't run their software stack at all. No legal threats with that, because RE for interoperability is legal. Controlling USB devices is rather simple, once you know the format of "packets" they send to their interface endpoints, to control the device. Format can often times be deduced from observing the URBs in wireshark while clicking around the vendor's app.
  - st_goliath 5y ago
    > Or just reverse their stupid ass USB protocol My point is that gets a bit tedious for sufficiently large number of stupid ass USB devices. You might want a simpler to automate approach, and possibly something where you don't have to deal with binary driver signing yourself, which is rather expensive if you are doing this for a hobby. > No legal threats with that, because RE for interoperability is legal. The local copyright law where I live agrees with that assessment. I take it you did the necessary research for wherever you live? But what if your reverse engineered driver infringes one of their stupid ass patents? What about trademarks (e.g. if you try to advertise it as a replacement for the official device driver)? You do know that even if you are totally in the right, that does not necessarily stop them from suing you anyway? Regardless of who is actually right, this will end up costing you a lot of time, money and nerves. I'd be very careful making legal assessments like that as an engineer. Responding to a legal threat totally unprepared and with a response like that will make the "sue you anyway" scenario very likely.
isoprophlex 5y ago
> and an obvious question: if I do, will I get back any "secret" products that aren't in the "all products" list? > "Beast Man Premium" That has to be some sort of USB-controlled pneumatic dragon dildo
somewhatbetter 5y ago
You should buy a standard mouse, no driver needed. A mouse and its protocol is prety simple, but now we achieved the state where a USB connected mouse reports itself as 5 mouse and 3 keyboard and some other HID capable device, good luck using them on legacy or alternative operating systems. (Hint: won't work). >Bbbbuut what about my programable buttons, led and whatever? I don't care about that, i care only about that i should be able to buy standard mouse which is always harder and harder task because you buy every piece of s with rgb leds so they will stop to produce non-manchild computer hardware. I wouldn't care at all if the hw would still provide the basic functionality without any special driver, but nooo, thats too much. Proposal: send the hw back to their HQ and demand your money back.
- moftz 5y ago
  I like my mouse with programmable macro buttons. It doesn't have any fancy lights, just a small multi-purpose indicator that shows battery level, sensitivity level, and which set of macros I'm using. I also like my $0 basic USB mouse that works with everything I plug it into. I think it came with a Dell PC but who knows as the logo has worn off. My fancy macro button mouse never leaves my desk but my cheap mouse has had plenty of travel. Same with my keyboard, I've got a nice one for my desk and a dirt cheap compact one that travels.
  - somewhatbetter 5y ago
    Dell sells (because i am pretty sure they don't manufacture them) really crappy input devices nowadays. I sent countless back directly to their Munich HQ.
- floatboth 5y ago
  I'm not aware of a single modern mouse that doesn't use regular HID for actual basic mousing. All these mice will work as basic HID mice in any operating system. If your legacy OS can't handle "5 mouse and 3 keyboard", its HID support was completely broken in the first place.
serguzest 5y ago
I have been in similar situation with ASUS ROG keyboad and I am so mad! Windows automatically installed crapware without my consent and it runs as a service. I uninstalled it but it keeps coming back. Do NOT buy ASUS ROG keyboards.
- ubavic 5y ago
  I don’t have ASUS ROG keyboard, but I unfortunately have ASUS ROG motherboard. I experienced similar situation: in order to use some basic functionality of the motherboard I had to install a bloatware which, by the way, didn’t even work properly. I absolutely agree with your last sentence.
bloopernova 5y ago
Finding a "good" mouse is really freaking difficult. First off, you don't know the state of the drivers and control software, as this thread demonstrates. Then you don't know the quality of the switches, as I found out with several Logitech mice that were well reviewed, but I suspect the hardware was switched for cheaper variants once the reviews were in. 2 separate Logitech mice started double clicking randomly, and their support was awful because they didn't have like-for-like replacements unless I wanted to wait for months. On top of all that, getting a good button layout, size, and shape is a real crapshoot too. So I bought a sealed-in-box new Logitech G500 from ebay as a spare because of course none of the new mice are anything close to the quality of the older models. Especially after being burnt on switch quality. The Ploopy mice have an awful name but are definitely intriguing to me. QMK firmware is pretty much perfect, and I wish I could use it on the Logitech G500. I used to recommend Roccat mice to people, but their lack of Mac and Linux support is a dealbreaker these days.
- bloopernova 5y ago
  Following on from this fragmented thought: I've ruined myself with regards to mice. Over the years I've become very used to the G500 format: 2 side buttons for page up and page down make web and code browsing very fast. And a button by the primary left button is mapped to "show all windows" which used to be called exposé on Mac, and the equivalent in Gnome 40. I've also started recently using another button to plain-text-paste, which is surprisingly useful when pasting code to coworkers in MS Teams.
- Drew_ 5y ago
  Zowie has an array of gaming mice that are all high quality and driverless.
  - vultour 5y ago
    I'm also very happy with my Zowie except for a strange thing with the mouse wheel - about a year after getting it it started making a faint squealing noise, then a few months later it miraculously went away. I have a second one at the office which has the exact same issue. I had several Rival 110's before and was similarly happy, I like the Zowie a bit more because it's larger.
ykonstant 5y ago
If I were designing the mouse, I would nickname the upstream servers "Rats' Nest".
soheil 5y ago
This is absurd. There is no winning with this guy: > good news: I got the URL it's requesting! bad news: it does its own certificate validation so it's erroring out at the self-signed root cert I have installed for MITM use. > GOOD SWEET LORD THEY ARE SCARED OF PEOPLE STEALING THEIR DRIVERS Which one is it, is it good that they use encryption to protect their users where they can or not? Please make up your mind.
- detaro 5y ago
  He isn't complaining that they use encryption.
  - soheil 5y ago
    He's complaining that he couldn't MITM their https requests.
    - detaro 5y ago
      correct, because thats the usual expectation: application should respect what the OS trusts.
Jnr 5y ago
If you are on Linux and using fancy gaming mouse, there is a chance you can configure it with the open source libratbag (console app) or Piper (GUI app). It won't make any network requests. :)
- system2 5y ago
  I wish not to tinker 3 days to setup my mouse.
  - RealStickman_ 5y ago
    Installing piper on linux and using it to configure your mouse will most likely be faster than using the manufacturer's software. Also no tinkering required if your mouse is supported by libratbag.
  - tialaramex 5y ago
    The nature of these devices is that they're HID compliant but Microsoft lets them get away with demanding you should "improve" things by installing extra software on Windows. Because they're HID compliant they do just work out of the box (on Windows or on Linux). In Linux there is no "Oh! Oh! Install this proprietary bullshit to wring more money out of you. Please. Please! Come on, spare a few bucks!" step. If you don't want to do any tinkering the mouse Just Works™ But if you wish the little features worked, like apparently changing LED light colours, you can install third party software. At that point yes you are tinkering, but you aren't dealing with constant appeals to please let it change your default web browser, or whatever like in Windows, so that still seems like you're ahead. I'm astonished Microsoft didn't just outright ban this nonsense. It's an awful user experience compared to Linux where all this stuff Just Works and Windows could have that too, not with more engineering work but with less by simply not allowing this crap.
  - kop316 5y ago
    ?? https://github.com/libratbag/piper https://github.com/libratbag/piper it's a GUI app, it looks pretty nice. It's also in the Debian repos, so you can just install it with "apt install piper" Looks pretty simple to me.
dbg31415 5y ago
And all this BS where I have to sign in, and download 200 MB files... and still no "chords" features on mainstream mice. I have Macros... but those are limited to how many buttons my mouse has. Like with Chords... Press Button 1 = Macro 1. Press Button 1 + Shift = Macro 2. Press Button 1 + Button 3 = Macro 7 Chords are so powerful but haven't really been adopted... Razer just adds more buttons to their Mice. And there's a limit to how many buttons you can add! Ha. I could do more with a three-button mouse and software that supports Chords than I can with their like 19-button monstrosities. http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse
system2 5y ago
We really should have some regulations regarding standard drivers for all devices and compatibility of them. I am dreaming I know, we don't even have right to repair yet.
2ion 5y ago
This is a problem with all proprietary software. For example, it's impossible to install most "bought" Windows software outside of dedicated VMs for me and stay happy because (a) most "enterprise" installers still want to run under elevated privileges (hell no), (b) as soon as elevated privileges are granted basically rape the registry and file system all over the place, touching everywhere they shouldn't and (c) cannot be contained because of this except on the OS level, hence multiple VMs and finally (d) cannot really be uninstalled without reinstalling the entire OS as the uninstallers (again, having privileges to delete everything) themselves cannot undo what the installers did. I have not installed a lot of software on Windows, macOS and Linux in my "main" OS instance because it simply looked and/or behaved shady as fuck.
ineedasername 5y ago
Logitech is similar, tries to auto-update most days and ~200MB "driver" install. Why the heck does a few hundred KB in actual drivers and a simply configuration program need 200MB? When I had an MS mouse intellipoint was only ~20MB, and the current MS Mouse & Keyboard Center is still only about 50MB (which still seems much larger than necessary)
- hyperman1 5y ago
  HP also has gone insane. We got a bunch of keyboards that had 3 defective keys on the numpad. Zero, slash and enter if I remember it, bog standard keys. HP Service desk says no problem, here's 512Kb of firmware update that will fix it. And it actually did. No hardware defect, just a software bug. I have no idea why a keyboard without much interesting extras even needs 512K of firmware, let alone why the stock firmware fails on 3 of the buttons. They're only there since 1985 or so, you'd think they got around to test the numeric pad by now
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    At least they didn't make you pay to unlock those keys as "premium DLC".
- jptech 5y ago
  The thing about Logitech (at least on Windows) is that it installs the updater as a device driver. So you cannot easily even block its internet access via firewall rules unless you define one for rundll32.exe If you want to know more about it, just google "Logitech Download Assistant". There should be a device for it in your Device Manager and an LDA.exe process running.
- stkdump 5y ago
  I used to wonder about these things as well. But now that we are used to electron, I wonder why technical people still are surprised.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
megamix 5y ago
stop software now!
andi999 5y ago
Next thing it will ask for your social media credentials, might even post a few status updates.
jsilence 5y ago
I remember the times when you would load the mouse driver into the memory above 640k of your 1Mb RAM PC. It was around 30kb in size. That is 'one Megabyte' RAM, not Gigabyte.
- exporectomy 5y ago
  So do I and it was crap because you had to load the mouse driver, as well as decide which one you needed and some programs had their own and some didn't work with the mouse even though they should. Now, you can just ignore mouse drivers and it's all automatic. It really is better. RAM is literally ten thousand times cheaper than then too, so it's no worse for a modern driver to occupy 300MB, which is already pretty huge.
  - jsilence 5y ago
    My point was, that obviously it is possible to program a mouse driver very effciently. And even if it were a full blown cross compatible mouse driver with a lot of device features it is hard to fathom why such a driver would require more than a megabyte or a couple of megabytes of space. The basic functionality can be realized in less than 30k. We had the whole operating system with GUI (Win3, OS/2 and Linux)run in 4 Megabytes. Sure it was snappier with 8 Mb, but that is still a far cry from the minimum requirements the commercial OS offerings come today. The way we are wasting ressources is simply insane
    - exporectomy 5y ago
      I doubt the default USB HID mouse driver in Windows is needlessly big. Just don't use the hideous bloatware that comes with the mouse. I've never had to worry about mouse drivers on Windows in the past probably 20 years, even wireless mice. They just work without thinking. It's much better than the 1980s-90s. You probably don't use an ancient OS as a daily driver so maybe those extra megabytes really are needed for something important after-all. I'm not saying Windows is super well optimized for space but you can't count the whole growth as waste. Even the default Raspbian Linux for Raspberry Pi requires several GB of storage.
xeromal 5y ago
I have this mouse and it makes me sad. It's actually a solid mouse too!
Mikeb85 5y ago
Not gonna lie, one of the nice (unintended I'm sure) consequences of no one making software for Linux is the extremely wide range of hardware drivers built-in. I've never had a mouse (and a bunch of other hardware) not work on Linux in the last 15 or so years.
- thrdbndndn 5y ago
  Windows have built-in driver(s) for all the mouses too. You can just ignore these additional software and they work fine (as fine it gets in Linux, of course. Some additional feature may not work.)
- SilverRed 5y ago
  Every single mouse supports the USB HID spec and will just work on any OS. The drivers let you configure macro keys, scroll speeds, rgb lights, dpi and other stuff which you just don't get to do on linux.
secondcoming 5y ago
My Dell laptop had an 800MB Realtek audio driver update. If I uninstall the Realtek stuff then the 3.5mm headphone socket doesn't work.
- _trampeltier 5y ago
  And I thought on my companys HP ZBook the sound driver is huge with 500MB in RAM.
- vultour 5y ago
  My old laptop had a Killer network driver that was bundled with some management bullshit which allowed you to limit ingress/egress bandwidth. It also had a known issue where it used 100% of your SSD I/O bandwidth by constantly rewriting a random file. I guess it was aptly named after all.
kapitalx 5y ago
I really enjoyed the progression of this thread's "Spite" hacking. I've gone down similar rabbit holes before.
underscore_ku 5y ago
just use linux
squarefoot 5y ago
I think it's all about branding, the same disgrace that plagues mobile operating systems: every software maker tries its best to force users install their logo on their screen, so that if yesterday one could use 100 services just by saving 100 bookmarks on a browser, now they need 100 apps, with all the implications wrt waste of space and resources, security etc. Although perfectly legit, it's a practice that cannot scale. Drivers installers on Windows aren't exempt from this nonsense as well since years, so every driver started coming with its companion app, very often a huge VB "thing" that did nothing important except showing its shiny icon on the desktop. Then years later they started phoning home to profile users, attempt to offer purchases for consumables (as printer drivers do), etc. In the old days however one had a way to control it: the .exe was often a self extracting .zip, so it could be fed to 7Zip and the like to extract the archive without executing it, then one would throw away the unnecessary bloat except the relevant .inf file and a few dlls or other small files, point to that location when searching for drivers, and voila: driver installed without the cruft. The question is if a giant ball of Electron bloat could be dissected in a similar fashion in order to extract the important stuff and throw away the rest. I hope so.
- mr_toad 5y ago
  Nvidia’s bloated GeForce experience is about 99% advertising and 1% actual driver. I hate them so much.
  - dannyw 5y ago
    You can just install the driver without installing GeForce experience.
- 5faulker 5y ago
  Apparently bureaucracy is not just an office thing.
- amelius 5y ago
  > The question is if a giant ball of Electron bloat could be dissected in a similar fashion in order to extract the important stuff and throw away the rest. I hope so. Perhaps OSes could be smarter. After installing an app, it could monitor the "hot" paths in the code, and only load those instructions the next time the app is loaded. Also resources that are never used could be not loaded into memory. Etc. I know, it would be difficult to build this as you're basically instrumenting an app or driver and then rewriting it, but I guess it would be a great innovative feature in a time when OS research seems stagnant.
xxxtentachyon 5y ago
I I’lli
malwrar 5y ago
So, the “driver” here is just a downloader/auto-updater to fetch the actual drivers based on usb id... definitely a letdown, I thought there would be a substantial issue here. I feel like infosec Twitter hasn’t heard of Hanlon’s razor, or maybe they just like being mad all the time over nothing. This thread unravels into mundanity as the author’s network traffic observations reveal the only actual issue is that drivers are downloaded over cleartext.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jfax 5y ago
USB mice alone was a mistake. We didn't need anything more complicated than rs-232.
jbverschoor 5y ago
Love my Mac and most of apple’s policies
- calaverainfo 5y ago
  Apple do literally the same thing with their Mac Windows drivers. https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/24118/how-to-download-bootcamp-drivers-without-bootcamp-assistant/59079#59079 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/24118/how-to-downl...
  - jbverschoor 5y ago
    I don’t see how it’s related. If I plug in a random device, it’s not allowing me elevate my privileges / get root access
    - calaverainfo 5y ago
      I'm confused, it seems like you are talking about something different than the original Twitter thread. The complaint there is that hardware that's officially supported on Windows does not have attached/downloadable driver for archivation and the only way to install driver for Windows is to first install elaborate middleman software and only through that it's possible to download and install the real driver from manufacturer's servers which must be online. That's word by word the same case for Mac hardware. The stackexchange answer I provided is the equivalent procedure as what Foone tries to explore in his thread, just for Mac's.
      - jbverschoor 5y ago
        That's weird. I thought this article was linking to the Razer driver admin on windows escalation. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/razer-bug-lets-you-become-a-windows-10-admin-by-plugging-in-a-mouse/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/razer-bug-let...
tim-- 5y ago
The Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical is an amazing mouse. I've been trying to find a keyboard and mouse combo similar to the Apple Space Grey mouse and keyboard, and there is nothing to be found like it. It's so depressing. You pay premium prices yet everything looks like it belongs in a 15 year olds room. If I could have something like the apple mouse, with physical buttons and a scroll wheel - I would be in my happy place. The Apple keyboard is such a pleasure to type on.
heroprotagonist 5y ago
I really wish Roccat would bring back the thumb paddle on their mice. I had this with the Leadr model that they discontinued. Yes, their software is horrible, but it's not necessary except for controlling the lighting. And the lighting is irritating. A lot of the custom buttons are superfluous for my needs.. But beyond that? It's a great mouse, the best I've had in decades. It's accurate, has great weight and traction, both wired/wireless options, and most importantly it has the thumb paddle so I can press down or up with my thumb to scroll. No more repeated rolling of the scroll wheel, or pressing the wheel down while dragging the entire mouse forward or back... Why don't more mice have this? And why'd they get rid of it on their newer mice?
trompetenaccoun 5y ago
158MB mouse driver. Lololol
pgib 5y ago
Probably fine.
mlang23 5y ago
Yes "HP TouchPoint Assistant" I am looking at you. You have been so obnoxious that I have decided to never ever buy anything from HP.
phendrenad2 5y ago
This is why I like Linux, the mouse driver just asks for root and adds the firewall exemption itself.
qwerty456127 5y ago
Curiously enough, most apps talking to the network apparently don't even ask for firewall exemptions and just do it. The Windows-standard firewall exemption dialog window is suspiciously rare to be seen while almost everything today tries to contact network servers. This is why I installed Sphinx Software Windows 10 Firewall Control which apparently does a much better job detecting processes trying to reach the Internet (although it uses the same firewall engine built into Windows). I use it to block every app which doesn't really need the net to do the job I want it to do. Nevertheless it would be naïve to believe it gives 100% protection, there actually are plenty of ways to bypass a firewall.
The_big_unknown 5y ago
I've had the reverse happen, where I had to configure my firewall to deny outgoing connections for Steelseries Engine. AFAIK it's the only way to prevent it from updating to Steelseries GG, which adds things like "Moments" and "Giveaways" but offers nothing new for configuring Steelseries hardware.
newdude116 5y ago
If I may post something off-topic 1. I like Cherry mice. Good value for the money https://www.cherry-world.com/products/office-and-home-office/mice.html https://www.cherry-world.com/products/office-and-home-office... 2. Does somebody use the Apple Magic Pad under Linux? How to enable right mouse click?
swinglock 5y ago
Did the driver pass WHQL?

1137 points by Tijdreiziger 5y ago

Can we have twitter banned from being posted here? On all UI clicks, a nagging window comes up. You can click it away, but it *reverts your click*, so any kind of navigation becomes really cumbersome.

jstanley 5y ago
Here's a workaround: once the nag window comes up, refresh the page, and then you get to look at what you clicked on.
tester34 5y ago
or twitter urls being replaced with some twitter2readable converter
Semaphor 5y ago
I hate twitter, but just foone alone makes the effort worth it for me.
lostgame 5y ago
HN, for whatever unbelievable reason - supports paywalled articles you can’t even read without subscriptions. I hardly think they’ll stop approving Twitter threads here. At least they’re readable without hacks or workarounds.

anotheraccount9 5y ago

It must be a multiuser mouse.

ackbar03 5y ago
I presume other user is NSA?
- SevenSigs 5y ago
  Why would they need that when they already have low level access to your computer?
  - npmaile 5y ago
    just for fun
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      stay in game shape

bane 5y ago

The rest of the thread is an interesting look at how an attempt to protect their devices actually revealed several hidden ones.

linker3000 5y ago

Ah, mice... "Need local admin and have physical access? ..." https://twitter.com/j0nh4t/status/1429049506021138437 https://twitter.com/j0nh4t/status/1429049506021138437

OGWhales 5y ago
Related post to the one you linked: https://twitter.com/an0n_r0/status/1429386474902917124 https://twitter.com/an0n_r0/status/1429386474902917124
- linker3000 5y ago
  Yes, I saw that for the first time moments after I posted my comment!
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
It is pretty trivial to get local admin on any desktop or workstation with physical access, though typically doing so requires at least one reboot. User accounts are basically worthless, from a security standpoint, in that scenario.
- shawnz 5y ago
  It's not trivial, and even so that's not a reason to discredit this particular vulnerability just because others also exist. What is the point of downplaying local privilege escalation vulnerabilities just because it's a hard scenario to defend against?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > It's not trivial In my experience, it is in fact pretty trivial. I'm not saying it shouldn't be fixed, I'm saying it isn't nrealy as big a deal as people are making it out to be. The infosec community likes to latch on to any little vulnerability it can and act like the sky is falling even if, when taken in context, said vulnerability is only a problem in narrow use cases or requires the target to pretty much already be completely exploited.

toxik 5y ago

Refuse to buy products like this, please. We don't need our USB mice turning into printer-level headaches.

Silhouette 5y ago
I'd love to but there mostly seem to be two separate markets now. You can have cheap junk with minimal features or you can have "gamer" hardware with an extra 0 on the price, components that might be much better but sometimes aren't, the kind of driver hell we're talking about, and lots of coloured lights. I miss the days when Logitech made great, comfortable mice for normal desktop use, with a small number of useful extra controls and a minimal driver and UI to choose what they did. I miss the days when you could buy a comfortable typist's keyboard for a sensible amount of money. I literally don't know a single brand that reliably makes good keyboards and mice for normal use any more. Every single one (and I've tried most of the big names) produces junk. Even in the £100+ range that is supposed to be high-end hardware, I have probably returned more than half of the products I've bought in the past few years because they had obvious serious defects out of the box or developed them within a few months of normal use.
- ashtonbaker 5y ago
  I have a Ducky One keyboard, very simple, mechanical keys, well built, no RGB, no additional drivers, and doesn’t seem like it will quit working any time soon.
  - nthn_g 5y ago
    I too have a Ducky, RGB (though with no computer software, purely keyboard controlled). Spilled coffee over it 2 times, cleaned it, still works. Can recommend!
- h2odragon 5y ago
  FYI: Unicomp still makes Model M keyboards (with USB! and Windows keys! if you want them); and Elecom trackballs are wonderful I'm hard on that stuff; i killed multiple original 90's manufactured Model M's and wore out a stack of MS trackballs over those 2 decades. One of the fancy logitech "G" blinky lights keyboards lasted less than 3mo under my hands. Kensington cheap trackballs quit moving right in days and stop working in months.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

spcebar 5y ago

Before jumping in and complaining about the Twitter format, jump to the bottom of the twitter thread where someone has almost certainly unrolled it. And remember Foone hates being linked on hacker news and didn't ask to be here.

globular-toast 5y ago
How do I get to the bottom? It seems to have doom scrolling.
- mellavora 5y ago
  well, obviously, you use the scroll wheel .. on your . ... ...
- mekkkkkk 5y ago
  Nitpick: You probably meant to write "endless scroll" or "infinite scroll". "Doom scrolling" is a verb for obsessively browsing bad news.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    You can't have the behavior without the mechanism. To me "doom scrolling" is infinite scrolling plus algorithmically-sorted feed, way worse than infinitely-scrolling a chronological feed where people will stop and go do something else as soon as they see anything for a second time.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      But that is NOT what it means to everybody else, so you will confuse people if you use it "your" way.
tomrod 5y ago
Why does the author's desire for community discussion factor in -- is that internet etiquette now?

darkteflon 5y ago

The 3rd party mouse situation on Macs is totally out of control. I recently bought a Logitech G Pro X Superlight to use as my daily driver on an M1 Mac. The mouse, it’s amazing. But Logitech’s software is a fucking car crash. A casual perusal of Reddit and customer forums will confirm. Runs as root, Sensor DPI won’t stay set, on-board mode flat out doesn’t work, requires manually setting permissions on a config file in order to save settings (!), etc. After struggling with it for several days - including trying to set it up in on-board mode on a Windows PC before bringing it across - to no avail, I finally came across Steermouse (http://www.plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/index.html http://www.plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/index.html). Was then able to fine tune cursor and scroll wheel speed and acceleration, middle and back / forward button customisations, etc. Nuked Logitech’s crap from orbit and never looked back. I’ve had similar experiences over the years with multiple Logitech mice on multiple Intel Macs - mostly using Logitech Options instead of GHub. You just can never get it quite right. So, PSA: if you’re on a Mac (AS or Intel), own a Logitech mouse and fucking hate your life, try your luck with Logitech’s software. Otherwise, get Steermouse. EDIT: Forgot to mention: if all you want is button customisation and you don’t want to pay for Steermouse, Karabiner-Elements is free and will have you covered. You may already be using it anyway to, eg, remap your Caps key. It can’t do cursor or scroll wheel adjustments, though.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
Huh, interesting. I have an older Logitech G700s mouse, so it uses the older Logitech software. I never had any issue with it on a Mac. I only used it occasionally to adjust the onboard settings, and then forget about it for years on end. I now have a G703 (so new G Hub software) and while I haven't tried that on the Mac, I can configure the onboard settings from Windows or from Linux [0] with no issues whatsoever (aside from setting a button to show the battery level, which, for some reason, doesn't work). --- [0] The Logitech software doesn't work on Linux, but Piper/ratbag work just fine. https://github.com/libratbag/piper https://github.com/libratbag/piper
- ratww 5y ago
  > The Logitech software doesn't work on Linux This is funny, considering it's an Electron app. They just didn't take the time to port, apparently.

dstick 5y ago

Looks like he had a lot of fun getting to the bottom of it :) https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1146136251449278466 https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1146136251449278466

faho 5y ago
(The bio lists pronouns - they had a lot of fun)

papito 5y ago

Guess what? Hot off the press. "Razer mouse software bug easily grants Windows admin privileges" https://www.slashgear.com/razer-mouse-software-bug-easily-grants-windows-admin-privileges-22688008/ https://www.slashgear.com/razer-mouse-software-bug-easily-gr...

binkHN 5y ago
Love Razer mice, but never install their software. And, yes, the way their installer starts via Windows Update should be prevented by Windows.
r1ch 5y ago
I'd bet good money that there are hundreds if not thousands of other buggy installers lurking on windows update, just waiting for the right hardware id to appear. Yes, this is a bit of a shortcut, but not really any different than booting from a USB drive and changing the admin password. Adding Bitlocker to the mix is where it starts to get interesting.
jeffbee 5y ago
I can't imagine blaming this one on Razer. It's a fundamental defect in Windows.
jwilk 5y ago
Another article on the same topic discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28273283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28273283

Svperstar 5y ago

I have been using Zowie mice for years. Plug and play NO software to download. Best mice for FPS I have ever used.

skyfaller 5y ago
I'll second this. I've had a Zowie FK1 since 2015 (when I was serious about playing Dota 2) and it's still going strong.

rafaelturk 5y ago

Startup idea: Subscription mouse.

SevenSigs 5y ago
sell mouse movements to drug companies so that they know who to show Parkinson disease ads to...
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  Also plenty of companies might be interested in what you're looking at when you switch to using the mouse with your non-dominant hand.
  - SevenSigs 5y ago
    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8753904794965d5b01cf3ed3da6b6df3-c https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8753904794965d5b01cf3e...
ummwhat 5y ago
I want to renew my subscription, but I can't click renew.
- gpderetta 5y ago
  Don't worry, the mouse will click it for you, automatically!
  - falcolas 5y ago
    It has a dedicated “renew/upgrade” button, conveniently located where the left click button used to be.
- noisy_boy 5y ago
  The maas (mouse-as-a-service) requires that you install the companion app through which you can activate your mouse and conveniently renew. It does require access to contacts, media and location services though but you can trust them.

jmuguy 5y ago

One reason, among many, to avoid products marketed towards gamers.

bradstewart 5y ago
Interestingly enough, the only reasonably high DPI mouse manufacturer I've found that actually has functional config software on Mac is Steelseries.
darkteflon 5y ago
In principle agree, but I recently switched to a Logitech G Pro X Superlight to use exclusively as a work mouse, and for me the 63g weight trumps everything about “business” mice. Over the years I’ve owned MX Masters, Marathons, Triathlons, Microsoft mice and others. The Superlight - for me personally - is substantially better for work applications than any other mouse I’ve ever used. It’s so comfortable and precise. Kicking myself for not switching earlier. EDIT: Subject to my comments above about Logitech software on Macs.
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  It’s a shame they went with an outdated charging port. Probably to have something easy to upgrade on the next version.
mekkkkkk 5y ago
IMO there are a lot of quality products in the gaming segment. The main problem is that the segment is bloated by so many "X but with LEDs and a higher price tag". You just have to do a bit more research before any purchase.
ezconnect 5y ago
Gamer mouse are actually very tough and last a long time, like 5 to 10 years. The software usually is the first to break during the years of usage. Since 2000 I only bought 3 Logitech mouse and once tried Razor but the button double clicked broke in just a few months and never tried them again. All 3 Logitech mouse still works except for the oldest one because the drivers don't work anymore and I can't use the extra buttons, but as a mouse it still works.

ubermonkey 5y ago

Christ, what a nightmare. I'm lucky I guess in that my mouse preference is actually the Apple mouse. I've tried a bunch of others of the years and keep coming back to it. I'm definitely aware of the shitshow that is peripheral drivers. It's always been bad, but now it's just awful awful awful. Even if someone introduced a mouse that appealed to me, I'd be hard pressed to bother given my suspicion that the software required would be terrible.

SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
Are you referring to the default Apple corded mouse they ship with iMacs or the Magic Mouse? Magic Mouse is nice, but of course isn’t for everyone. I have it for my dev machines but trying to use it for playing most types of reaction style games is a nightmare. BootCamp driver compatibility is also not really there. I have never been able to get my Magic Mouse to scroll using the touch motion on Windows, for instance.
- robin_reala 5y ago
  Apple hasn’t shipped a corded mouse for four years.
  - spijdar 5y ago
    For anyone else momentarily confused by this, they stopped selling the last corded mouse four years ago, but haven't bundled a corded mouse with any computer since 2009 AFAIK. Which makes the comment about "corded mouse they ship with iMacs" feel even older.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 5y ago
      Interesting, I could have sworn they were bundling the corded mouse with iMacs circa 2015. Are you sure about your comment about bundling? In any event, yes I did not know they stopped shipping them but that is only a good thing. I think the polite way to describe the quality of those mice is not very good. Several more impolite terms come to mind.

6510 5y ago

When the USB standard took over the galaxy I was baffled. I mean, what could possibly go wrong here? <hysterical-laughter>

6510 5y ago
In my book A mouse should be 3 buttons, 3 potentiometers, 7 wires, a plug and a plastic box. Worse that can happen is a short connecting all wires together - then nothing bad happens to the computer. Nothing! The PS/2 DIN was already doing more than I wanted, bi-directional communication is already more than you need to make the device work. Perhaps there are exotic mice to be had that deserve to communicate over USB, with elaborate drivers and all the trimmings. Internet connectivity, bootloaders, flashing leds etc. Ofc you would have to have an USB port to use those which can be undesirable You can plug anything into those. Next the user will download software from the internet and install it. Wild concept. lol

VortexDream 5y ago

I use the Malwarebytes Windows Firewall Control. It's always interesting to see what applications or services are making internet requests. Much of it ends up being Windows services, but still.

kop316 5y ago

What gets me the most is seeing something like piper: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27871956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27871956 Where its (mainly) one person in their spare time that is able to put these official drivers to shame.

vanderZwan 5y ago
Isn't it quite common for open source hardware drivers to have an effective bus factor of one? (as in, yes it's open source but only one dev has the deep familiarity with the topic required for fast updates) Like, weren't practically all Linux webcam drivers implemented by one French guy at some point?
- kop316 5y ago
  > Isn't it quite common for open source hardware drivers to have an effective bus factor of one? (as in, yes it's open source but only one dev has the deep familiarity with the topic required for fast updates) It's usually common for one person to be motivated enough to do the work, so they are the ones most knowledgeable yeah. But the code is out there, it doesn't stop anyone else from looking at it/understanding it just as well. From the looks of piper, it looks like several folks understood it enough to add drivers of their own. > Like, weren't practically all Linux webcam drivers implemented by one French guy at some point? I really don't know.

alpaca128 5y ago

Meanwhile I wish they'd still sell the Roccat Savu. I bought it on a sale and it turned out to be the most ergonomic mouse I've used so far. Runs perfectly fine without the official drivers and the few extra buttons have decent default settings. But I usually avoid "gaming" hardware. Even if it's not overpriced it rarely looks good and has the same quality at best.

izacus 5y ago

Well, I'm sure Logitech was sensible like most HackerNews developers and saved costs by using Electron for their driver. This gives you a nice 300MB+ base package to drive the UI with a lot of unneeded code (most likely asking for the firewall permissions) and then additional actual driver download. I'm sure that allowed them to iterate quickly, hire developers who know nothing but JS to build their driver package and ship the MVP with low costs! Isn't that the type of software that keeps being defended here? ^^

Kaze404 5y ago
...Logitech?
- sundvor 5y ago
  Logitech software might be bloated, but it's downright lean compared to the Roccat mouse I just got for my son.
- izacus 5y ago
  Both Roccat and Logitech are horrible in this regard. I skipped a thought mostly because I had to deal with Logitech crap the latest.
williamtwild 5y ago
"like most HackerNews developers" What are you babbling on about?
- chapium 5y ago
  Seriously, I would have assumed Rust, Elm, Julia, D, or Zig if that were the case.
K5EiS 5y ago
The driver is from Roccat, not Logitech.
staticassertion 5y ago

tumblewit 5y ago

This reminds me of Windows 10 itself. A fresh install of windows 10 has all its builtin apps including the calculator (for currency I am guessing) allowed through the firewall by default. In the security world, the default should be off and only upon request should an app allowed to talk over the network. Not to mention the fact that apps like Facebook messenger are installed by default in Windows. Microsoft can sell me their operating system in a minute if they just stop all the stupid telemetry, remove the bloat and by default turn all privacy and security options to on and not off. It's not a bad operating system for most people, it's just a privacy nightmare that Microsoft seems to be fine with somehow. Because no matter what your privacy 'policy' is, the best policy is to not collect any data at all.

Denvercoder9 5y ago
> In the security world, the default should be off and only upon request should an app allowed to talk over the network. I'd argue that reasonable defaults are better. Asking permission for everything, including features most to all people would find necessary, just creates decision fatigue and results in people clicking "allow" on every popup.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  I think the only reasonable default is to not talk unless I've given permission for it to do so. But I recognize that I'm in the minority. So much so that I can't trust software to behave itself, so I've had to use my firewall to disable all outbound traffic by default, so I can add exceptions as needed. It's amazing how rarely such exceptions are actually needed.
  - __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
    I'm with you. Paranoid defaults should be the default defaults Although I'd still like to be able to opt-in to reasonable defaults if I trust that my OS's non-default default decisions are indeed reasonable.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

dec0dedab0de 5y ago

I wish USB devices just came with read only storage that had the drivers

Denvercoder9 5y ago
I wish most USB devices wouldn't need drivers at all, and just use standard interfaces. It's a mouse, we've been making them for half a century, why could it possibly need a custom protocol?
- queuebert 5y ago
  I've never installed the drivers for my mice. They all point and quite often click.
- dec0dedab0de 5y ago
  That is a good point, but that would limit things to the standards. Sure, things that are standard should use standard interfaces, and I bet this mouse works perfectly fine with the standard interface, but adds some extra functionality beyond that. Granted, it's absurd it needs internet access, I'm just saying that regardless of how well they are written, it would be nice if some drivers were available from the device itself.
  - Denvercoder9 5y ago
    What functionality can a mouse have that couldn't have been standardized 20 years ago? I haven't encountered a mouse that had more than some sort of pointing device, scrollwheels, buttons and possibly some LEDs.
    - the_only_law 5y ago
      > What functionality can a mouse have that couldn't have been standardized 20 years ago? Apparently there are some wacky domain specific mice: https://3dconnexion.com/uk/product/spacemouse-enterprise/ https://3dconnexion.com/uk/product/spacemouse-enterprise/

sschueller 5y ago

I can't find it online because of all the current mouse freezing issues but I recall that the very old macs (late 80s) would freeze on mouse down until you let go of the button.

skyfaller 5y ago

For anyone interested in open hardware mice, I have to recommend Ploopy: https://ploopy.co/ https://ploopy.co/ Plug-and-play, flash your own firmware if you like. Current models ship with QMK (open firmware), although I believe my older trackball didn't, I'd have to flash it. I have both a left-handed trackball (rare!) and a right-handed mouse from them, I like to alternate. Two obvious complaints: - They're really expensive - They're 3D-printed, which means manufacturing isn't polished. My trackball had a sticky mousewheel, which I ultimately had to buy a replacement for and swap out. My mouse has some rough edges I haven't filed down yet, and the 3D-printed texture may not be for everyone. The good news is that it's easy to make replacement parts and repairs yourself! Still, I wish they would make mass-produced versions with more conventional and precise manufacturing techniques, just with the option to 3D-print your own parts if you feel like it / need to. Maybe that would bring the price down while also improving build quality.

nabakin 5y ago
I can't connect to your link
- trey-jones 5y ago
  Wordpress DB is down. Did we kill it?
  - nabakin 5y ago
    I first clicked the link only 2-4 minutes after it was posted and it was down so I doubt
  - rcoveson 5y ago
    Welp, LAMP stack doesn't scale. Time to hire some microservices teams and set up a k8s cluster.
    - nix23 5y ago
      >Welp, LAMP stack doesn't scale Tell that wikipedia ;)

gtsteve 5y ago

Yes, this is why I don't buy Razer equipment anymore. No, I do not want to sign up for a Razer account so I can control my DPI settings! Not only that, it automatically installed the software somehow when I plugged it in, which I didn't want.

matoro 5y ago

I have this same mouse. It works perfectly fine as an HID-compliant mouse on Linux, including the forward/back buttons. You only need all that crap if you want to control the rainbow RGB lighting. And if you really that, there's a reverse-engineered driver here: http://roccat.sourceforge.net/ http://roccat.sourceforge.net/

floatboth 5y ago
There's also libratbag, which contains RGB/DPI/extra-button/etc control for a variety of mice from many many vendors
- RealStickman_ 5y ago
  If you want a graphical frontend for libratbag there's piper.
arendtio 5y ago
You might want to add, that Roccat supported the reverse engineering effort in this case by providing hardware and approving the use of certain sound files: > The reversed hardware is kindly provided by Roccat. > The sound files and the Roccat logo are property of Roccat and are used with their approval. A few years back, I owned a Roccat mouse myself and was delighted to find a decent Linux driver for it.
SilverRed 5y ago
If you only cared about the basic functions, you could have got a much cheaper mouse.
- wruza 5y ago
  Since when RGB Rainbow became Enhanced Function and dpi/buttons/accel/grip/etc became basic?
  - stavros 5y ago
    Well, since every mouse has dpi/buttons/axxel/grip/etc and not all mouses have RGB Rainbow.

randomtandom 5y ago

Xtrfy ftw

deleted 5y ago

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gruez 5y ago

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deleted 5y ago
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ekimekim 5y ago
The driver itself is HTTP, not HTTPS. They were saying they hoped that the HTTPS call which tells it where to download the driver also contained signatures so that the later HTTP request could be verified. spoilers: it does not. So you don't need to mitm the HTTPS request, you just wait until they make the follow-up HTTP request, mitm that and serve whatever you want.
addingnumbers 5y ago
The answer is in the sentence immediately before where you started copying > ... and then it downloads the drivers/updates off of media.roccat. org using HTTP.

snarfy 5y ago

All of Razer's products are like that. I've been boycotting them since their keyboard wanted me to sign in to use my function keys.

isolli 5y ago
I had trouble believing you at first, but yeah... https://twitter.com/mark_roszko/status/1429459359554224135 https://twitter.com/mark_roszko/status/1429459359554224135
ezconnect 5y ago
I stopped using mine when I installed their software that requires login to use the mouse 2 extra buttons. It was brand new.
nottorp 5y ago
Yep, don't forget that Razer were there first. Does the Roccat software even require registration, or it's just bloated because that's all they could do? I'd even say Razer wins on assholery.
hbn 5y ago
I can never forget this classic video of Jonathan Blow trying a new Razer keyboard (worth it to stay tuned to the very end) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UGO3EG5DC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UGO3EG5DC8
- user3939382 5y ago
  That was fantastic. I wish I could watch Razer's executive team react to this video. I feel like many of us have this kind of experience with hardware and software but it's always a private suffering.
- flyinghamster 5y ago
  > "My preferred keyboard is one that doesn't have a user experience." Truer words have never been spoken. It's a crying shame that "caveat emptor" has become so thoroughly ingrained in the tech scene. More and more, I see some gizmo that seems interesting, take a deeper look, and run away screaming when I find out what a crawling horror it really is.

55555 5y ago

I don't use Twitter, so this is new to me, but I found this to be interesting because it's not your standard blog post turned into a tweet storm; it's a livestream over text. It's an altogether different experience. I rarely see a livestream over text.

st_goliath 5y ago

> todo item added: Figure out a way to mass-download all the auto-updating drivers > todo item added: Start sniffing the protocol this tool uses to reprogram the mouse so I can build a cross-platform tool for it. This does sound like an intriguing idea. For all those crappy Windows drivers that come with an 300 MiB+ Electron based configuration UI, auto updater, etc... figure out how to get the actual driver binaries and build a script that downloads and repackages them using NSIS. One could in theory build some kind of Qemu based sandbox framework that snapshots the disk and extracts the binaries after installation. Tricking the updater into actually installing the driver inside a VM without the hardware might be a bit tricky, but depending on how they do the check (e.g. look if the USB ID is present?), I guess it should be doable and might be a bit easier than the reverse engineering approach in this Twitter thread (and also easier to automate, so it does not just work for this particular device). I fear the biggest challenge for such a project would be dealing with the hardware vendors legal department though.

megous 5y ago
Or just reverse their stupid ass USB protocol, and don't run their software stack at all. No legal threats with that, because RE for interoperability is legal. Controlling USB devices is rather simple, once you know the format of "packets" they send to their interface endpoints, to control the device. Format can often times be deduced from observing the URBs in wireshark while clicking around the vendor's app.
- st_goliath 5y ago
  > Or just reverse their stupid ass USB protocol My point is that gets a bit tedious for sufficiently large number of stupid ass USB devices. You might want a simpler to automate approach, and possibly something where you don't have to deal with binary driver signing yourself, which is rather expensive if you are doing this for a hobby. > No legal threats with that, because RE for interoperability is legal. The local copyright law where I live agrees with that assessment. I take it you did the necessary research for wherever you live? But what if your reverse engineered driver infringes one of their stupid ass patents? What about trademarks (e.g. if you try to advertise it as a replacement for the official device driver)? You do know that even if you are totally in the right, that does not necessarily stop them from suing you anyway? Regardless of who is actually right, this will end up costing you a lot of time, money and nerves. I'd be very careful making legal assessments like that as an engineer. Responding to a legal threat totally unprepared and with a response like that will make the "sue you anyway" scenario very likely.

isoprophlex 5y ago

> and an obvious question: if I do, will I get back any "secret" products that aren't in the "all products" list? > "Beast Man Premium" That has to be some sort of USB-controlled pneumatic dragon dildo

somewhatbetter 5y ago

You should buy a standard mouse, no driver needed. A mouse and its protocol is prety simple, but now we achieved the state where a USB connected mouse reports itself as 5 mouse and 3 keyboard and some other HID capable device, good luck using them on legacy or alternative operating systems. (Hint: won't work). >Bbbbuut what about my programable buttons, led and whatever? I don't care about that, i care only about that i should be able to buy standard mouse which is always harder and harder task because you buy every piece of s with rgb leds so they will stop to produce non-manchild computer hardware. I wouldn't care at all if the hw would still provide the basic functionality without any special driver, but nooo, thats too much. Proposal: send the hw back to their HQ and demand your money back.

moftz 5y ago
I like my mouse with programmable macro buttons. It doesn't have any fancy lights, just a small multi-purpose indicator that shows battery level, sensitivity level, and which set of macros I'm using. I also like my $0 basic USB mouse that works with everything I plug it into. I think it came with a Dell PC but who knows as the logo has worn off. My fancy macro button mouse never leaves my desk but my cheap mouse has had plenty of travel. Same with my keyboard, I've got a nice one for my desk and a dirt cheap compact one that travels.
- somewhatbetter 5y ago
  Dell sells (because i am pretty sure they don't manufacture them) really crappy input devices nowadays. I sent countless back directly to their Munich HQ.
floatboth 5y ago
I'm not aware of a single modern mouse that doesn't use regular HID for actual basic mousing. All these mice will work as basic HID mice in any operating system. If your legacy OS can't handle "5 mouse and 3 keyboard", its HID support was completely broken in the first place.

serguzest 5y ago

I have been in similar situation with ASUS ROG keyboad and I am so mad! Windows automatically installed crapware without my consent and it runs as a service. I uninstalled it but it keeps coming back. Do NOT buy ASUS ROG keyboards.

ubavic 5y ago
I don’t have ASUS ROG keyboard, but I unfortunately have ASUS ROG motherboard. I experienced similar situation: in order to use some basic functionality of the motherboard I had to install a bloatware which, by the way, didn’t even work properly. I absolutely agree with your last sentence.

bloopernova 5y ago

Finding a "good" mouse is really freaking difficult. First off, you don't know the state of the drivers and control software, as this thread demonstrates. Then you don't know the quality of the switches, as I found out with several Logitech mice that were well reviewed, but I suspect the hardware was switched for cheaper variants once the reviews were in. 2 separate Logitech mice started double clicking randomly, and their support was awful because they didn't have like-for-like replacements unless I wanted to wait for months. On top of all that, getting a good button layout, size, and shape is a real crapshoot too. So I bought a sealed-in-box new Logitech G500 from ebay as a spare because of course none of the new mice are anything close to the quality of the older models. Especially after being burnt on switch quality. The Ploopy mice have an awful name but are definitely intriguing to me. QMK firmware is pretty much perfect, and I wish I could use it on the Logitech G500. I used to recommend Roccat mice to people, but their lack of Mac and Linux support is a dealbreaker these days.

bloopernova 5y ago
Following on from this fragmented thought: I've ruined myself with regards to mice. Over the years I've become very used to the G500 format: 2 side buttons for page up and page down make web and code browsing very fast. And a button by the primary left button is mapped to "show all windows" which used to be called exposé on Mac, and the equivalent in Gnome 40. I've also started recently using another button to plain-text-paste, which is surprisingly useful when pasting code to coworkers in MS Teams.
Drew_ 5y ago
Zowie has an array of gaming mice that are all high quality and driverless.
- vultour 5y ago
  I'm also very happy with my Zowie except for a strange thing with the mouse wheel - about a year after getting it it started making a faint squealing noise, then a few months later it miraculously went away. I have a second one at the office which has the exact same issue. I had several Rival 110's before and was similarly happy, I like the Zowie a bit more because it's larger.

ykonstant 5y ago

If I were designing the mouse, I would nickname the upstream servers "Rats' Nest".

soheil 5y ago

This is absurd. There is no winning with this guy: > good news: I got the URL it's requesting! bad news: it does its own certificate validation so it's erroring out at the self-signed root cert I have installed for MITM use. > GOOD SWEET LORD THEY ARE SCARED OF PEOPLE STEALING THEIR DRIVERS Which one is it, is it good that they use encryption to protect their users where they can or not? Please make up your mind.

detaro 5y ago
He isn't complaining that they use encryption.
- soheil 5y ago
  He's complaining that he couldn't MITM their https requests.
  - detaro 5y ago
    correct, because thats the usual expectation: application should respect what the OS trusts.

Jnr 5y ago

If you are on Linux and using fancy gaming mouse, there is a chance you can configure it with the open source libratbag (console app) or Piper (GUI app). It won't make any network requests. :)

system2 5y ago
I wish not to tinker 3 days to setup my mouse.
- RealStickman_ 5y ago
  Installing piper on linux and using it to configure your mouse will most likely be faster than using the manufacturer's software. Also no tinkering required if your mouse is supported by libratbag.
- tialaramex 5y ago
  The nature of these devices is that they're HID compliant but Microsoft lets them get away with demanding you should "improve" things by installing extra software on Windows. Because they're HID compliant they do just work out of the box (on Windows or on Linux). In Linux there is no "Oh! Oh! Install this proprietary bullshit to wring more money out of you. Please. Please! Come on, spare a few bucks!" step. If you don't want to do any tinkering the mouse Just Works™ But if you wish the little features worked, like apparently changing LED light colours, you can install third party software. At that point yes you are tinkering, but you aren't dealing with constant appeals to please let it change your default web browser, or whatever like in Windows, so that still seems like you're ahead. I'm astonished Microsoft didn't just outright ban this nonsense. It's an awful user experience compared to Linux where all this stuff Just Works and Windows could have that too, not with more engineering work but with less by simply not allowing this crap.
- kop316 5y ago
  ?? https://github.com/libratbag/piper https://github.com/libratbag/piper it's a GUI app, it looks pretty nice. It's also in the Debian repos, so you can just install it with "apt install piper" Looks pretty simple to me.

dbg31415 5y ago

And all this BS where I have to sign in, and download 200 MB files... and still no "chords" features on mainstream mice. I have Macros... but those are limited to how many buttons my mouse has. Like with Chords... Press Button 1 = Macro 1. Press Button 1 + Shift = Macro 2. Press Button 1 + Button 3 = Macro 7 Chords are so powerful but haven't really been adopted... Razer just adds more buttons to their Mice. And there's a limit to how many buttons you can add! Ha. I could do more with a three-button mouse and software that supports Chords than I can with their like 19-button monstrosities. http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse http://acme.cat-v.org/mouse

system2 5y ago

We really should have some regulations regarding standard drivers for all devices and compatibility of them. I am dreaming I know, we don't even have right to repair yet.

2ion 5y ago

This is a problem with all proprietary software. For example, it's impossible to install most "bought" Windows software outside of dedicated VMs for me and stay happy because (a) most "enterprise" installers still want to run under elevated privileges (hell no), (b) as soon as elevated privileges are granted basically rape the registry and file system all over the place, touching everywhere they shouldn't and (c) cannot be contained because of this except on the OS level, hence multiple VMs and finally (d) cannot really be uninstalled without reinstalling the entire OS as the uninstallers (again, having privileges to delete everything) themselves cannot undo what the installers did. I have not installed a lot of software on Windows, macOS and Linux in my "main" OS instance because it simply looked and/or behaved shady as fuck.

ineedasername 5y ago

Logitech is similar, tries to auto-update most days and ~200MB "driver" install. Why the heck does a few hundred KB in actual drivers and a simply configuration program need 200MB? When I had an MS mouse intellipoint was only ~20MB, and the current MS Mouse & Keyboard Center is still only about 50MB (which still seems much larger than necessary)

hyperman1 5y ago
HP also has gone insane. We got a bunch of keyboards that had 3 defective keys on the numpad. Zero, slash and enter if I remember it, bog standard keys. HP Service desk says no problem, here's 512Kb of firmware update that will fix it. And it actually did. No hardware defect, just a software bug. I have no idea why a keyboard without much interesting extras even needs 512K of firmware, let alone why the stock firmware fails on 3 of the buttons. They're only there since 1985 or so, you'd think they got around to test the numeric pad by now
- ineedasername 5y ago
  At least they didn't make you pay to unlock those keys as "premium DLC".
jptech 5y ago
The thing about Logitech (at least on Windows) is that it installs the updater as a device driver. So you cannot easily even block its internet access via firewall rules unless you define one for rundll32.exe If you want to know more about it, just google "Logitech Download Assistant". There should be a device for it in your Device Manager and an LDA.exe process running.
stkdump 5y ago
I used to wonder about these things as well. But now that we are used to electron, I wonder why technical people still are surprised.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

megamix 5y ago

stop software now!

andi999 5y ago

Next thing it will ask for your social media credentials, might even post a few status updates.

jsilence 5y ago

I remember the times when you would load the mouse driver into the memory above 640k of your 1Mb RAM PC. It was around 30kb in size. That is 'one Megabyte' RAM, not Gigabyte.

exporectomy 5y ago
So do I and it was crap because you had to load the mouse driver, as well as decide which one you needed and some programs had their own and some didn't work with the mouse even though they should. Now, you can just ignore mouse drivers and it's all automatic. It really is better. RAM is literally ten thousand times cheaper than then too, so it's no worse for a modern driver to occupy 300MB, which is already pretty huge.
- jsilence 5y ago
  My point was, that obviously it is possible to program a mouse driver very effciently. And even if it were a full blown cross compatible mouse driver with a lot of device features it is hard to fathom why such a driver would require more than a megabyte or a couple of megabytes of space. The basic functionality can be realized in less than 30k. We had the whole operating system with GUI (Win3, OS/2 and Linux)run in 4 Megabytes. Sure it was snappier with 8 Mb, but that is still a far cry from the minimum requirements the commercial OS offerings come today. The way we are wasting ressources is simply insane
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    I doubt the default USB HID mouse driver in Windows is needlessly big. Just don't use the hideous bloatware that comes with the mouse. I've never had to worry about mouse drivers on Windows in the past probably 20 years, even wireless mice. They just work without thinking. It's much better than the 1980s-90s. You probably don't use an ancient OS as a daily driver so maybe those extra megabytes really are needed for something important after-all. I'm not saying Windows is super well optimized for space but you can't count the whole growth as waste. Even the default Raspbian Linux for Raspberry Pi requires several GB of storage.

xeromal 5y ago

I have this mouse and it makes me sad. It's actually a solid mouse too!

Mikeb85 5y ago

Not gonna lie, one of the nice (unintended I'm sure) consequences of no one making software for Linux is the extremely wide range of hardware drivers built-in. I've never had a mouse (and a bunch of other hardware) not work on Linux in the last 15 or so years.

thrdbndndn 5y ago
Windows have built-in driver(s) for all the mouses too. You can just ignore these additional software and they work fine (as fine it gets in Linux, of course. Some additional feature may not work.)
SilverRed 5y ago
Every single mouse supports the USB HID spec and will just work on any OS. The drivers let you configure macro keys, scroll speeds, rgb lights, dpi and other stuff which you just don't get to do on linux.

secondcoming 5y ago

My Dell laptop had an 800MB Realtek audio driver update. If I uninstall the Realtek stuff then the 3.5mm headphone socket doesn't work.

_trampeltier 5y ago
And I thought on my companys HP ZBook the sound driver is huge with 500MB in RAM.
vultour 5y ago
My old laptop had a Killer network driver that was bundled with some management bullshit which allowed you to limit ingress/egress bandwidth. It also had a known issue where it used 100% of your SSD I/O bandwidth by constantly rewriting a random file. I guess it was aptly named after all.

kapitalx 5y ago

I really enjoyed the progression of this thread's "Spite" hacking. I've gone down similar rabbit holes before.

underscore_ku 5y ago

just use linux

squarefoot 5y ago

I think it's all about branding, the same disgrace that plagues mobile operating systems: every software maker tries its best to force users install their logo on their screen, so that if yesterday one could use 100 services just by saving 100 bookmarks on a browser, now they need 100 apps, with all the implications wrt waste of space and resources, security etc. Although perfectly legit, it's a practice that cannot scale. Drivers installers on Windows aren't exempt from this nonsense as well since years, so every driver started coming with its companion app, very often a huge VB "thing" that did nothing important except showing its shiny icon on the desktop. Then years later they started phoning home to profile users, attempt to offer purchases for consumables (as printer drivers do), etc. In the old days however one had a way to control it: the .exe was often a self extracting .zip, so it could be fed to 7Zip and the like to extract the archive without executing it, then one would throw away the unnecessary bloat except the relevant .inf file and a few dlls or other small files, point to that location when searching for drivers, and voila: driver installed without the cruft. The question is if a giant ball of Electron bloat could be dissected in a similar fashion in order to extract the important stuff and throw away the rest. I hope so.

mr_toad 5y ago
Nvidia’s bloated GeForce experience is about 99% advertising and 1% actual driver. I hate them so much.
- dannyw 5y ago
  You can just install the driver without installing GeForce experience.
5faulker 5y ago
Apparently bureaucracy is not just an office thing.
amelius 5y ago
> The question is if a giant ball of Electron bloat could be dissected in a similar fashion in order to extract the important stuff and throw away the rest. I hope so. Perhaps OSes could be smarter. After installing an app, it could monitor the "hot" paths in the code, and only load those instructions the next time the app is loaded. Also resources that are never used could be not loaded into memory. Etc. I know, it would be difficult to build this as you're basically instrumenting an app or driver and then rewriting it, but I guess it would be a great innovative feature in a time when OS research seems stagnant.

xxxtentachyon 5y ago

I I’lli

malwrar 5y ago

So, the “driver” here is just a downloader/auto-updater to fetch the actual drivers based on usb id... definitely a letdown, I thought there would be a substantial issue here. I feel like infosec Twitter hasn’t heard of Hanlon’s razor, or maybe they just like being mad all the time over nothing. This thread unravels into mundanity as the author’s network traffic observations reveal the only actual issue is that drivers are downloaded over cleartext.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jfax 5y ago

USB mice alone was a mistake. We didn't need anything more complicated than rs-232.

jbverschoor 5y ago

Love my Mac and most of apple’s policies

calaverainfo 5y ago
Apple do literally the same thing with their Mac Windows drivers. https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/24118/how-to-download-bootcamp-drivers-without-bootcamp-assistant/59079#59079 https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/24118/how-to-downl...
- jbverschoor 5y ago
  I don’t see how it’s related. If I plug in a random device, it’s not allowing me elevate my privileges / get root access
  - calaverainfo 5y ago
    I'm confused, it seems like you are talking about something different than the original Twitter thread. The complaint there is that hardware that's officially supported on Windows does not have attached/downloadable driver for archivation and the only way to install driver for Windows is to first install elaborate middleman software and only through that it's possible to download and install the real driver from manufacturer's servers which must be online. That's word by word the same case for Mac hardware. The stackexchange answer I provided is the equivalent procedure as what Foone tries to explore in his thread, just for Mac's.
    - jbverschoor 5y ago
      That's weird. I thought this article was linking to the Razer driver admin on windows escalation. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/razer-bug-lets-you-become-a-windows-10-admin-by-plugging-in-a-mouse/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/razer-bug-let...

tim-- 5y ago

The Microsoft IntelliMouse Optical is an amazing mouse. I've been trying to find a keyboard and mouse combo similar to the Apple Space Grey mouse and keyboard, and there is nothing to be found like it. It's so depressing. You pay premium prices yet everything looks like it belongs in a 15 year olds room. If I could have something like the apple mouse, with physical buttons and a scroll wheel - I would be in my happy place. The Apple keyboard is such a pleasure to type on.

heroprotagonist 5y ago

I really wish Roccat would bring back the thumb paddle on their mice. I had this with the Leadr model that they discontinued. Yes, their software is horrible, but it's not necessary except for controlling the lighting. And the lighting is irritating. A lot of the custom buttons are superfluous for my needs.. But beyond that? It's a great mouse, the best I've had in decades. It's accurate, has great weight and traction, both wired/wireless options, and most importantly it has the thumb paddle so I can press down or up with my thumb to scroll. No more repeated rolling of the scroll wheel, or pressing the wheel down while dragging the entire mouse forward or back... Why don't more mice have this? And why'd they get rid of it on their newer mice?

trompetenaccoun 5y ago

158MB mouse driver. Lololol

pgib 5y ago

Probably fine.

mlang23 5y ago

Yes "HP TouchPoint Assistant" I am looking at you. You have been so obnoxious that I have decided to never ever buy anything from HP.

phendrenad2 5y ago

This is why I like Linux, the mouse driver just asks for root and adds the firewall exemption itself.

qwerty456127 5y ago

Curiously enough, most apps talking to the network apparently don't even ask for firewall exemptions and just do it. The Windows-standard firewall exemption dialog window is suspiciously rare to be seen while almost everything today tries to contact network servers. This is why I installed Sphinx Software Windows 10 Firewall Control which apparently does a much better job detecting processes trying to reach the Internet (although it uses the same firewall engine built into Windows). I use it to block every app which doesn't really need the net to do the job I want it to do. Nevertheless it would be naïve to believe it gives 100% protection, there actually are plenty of ways to bypass a firewall.

The_big_unknown 5y ago

I've had the reverse happen, where I had to configure my firewall to deny outgoing connections for Steelseries Engine. AFAIK it's the only way to prevent it from updating to Steelseries GG, which adds things like "Moments" and "Giveaways" but offers nothing new for configuring Steelseries hardware.

newdude116 5y ago

If I may post something off-topic 1. I like Cherry mice. Good value for the money https://www.cherry-world.com/products/office-and-home-office/mice.html https://www.cherry-world.com/products/office-and-home-office... 2. Does somebody use the Apple Magic Pad under Linux? How to enable right mouse click?

swinglock 5y ago

Did the driver pass WHQL?