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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

763 points by blacktulip 5y ago

lalaland1125 5y ago
> And if you insist on believing in the crazy conspiracy theories, at least SHUT THE HELL UP about it on Linux kernel discussion lists. I see Linus still hasn't changed much.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  Yeah, the anger management sessions didn't do much. Also, some of the things he states are wrong (or unverified) as well. I wish people had the maturity of being able to discuss sensitive topics without having it degenerate into a visceral fight. For instance, I'm not being rude or anything, I'm just sharing my knowledge from 10+ or so years doing science, not pushing an agenda and presenting arguments in a civilized manner. Yet, for some reason, some people don't like that, go figure. Similar to the chinese leak fiasco, it was a natural question to ask yet the agenda was to bury it as it if was wrong to question those things. A bit sad to be somebody who is just following the tides like some sort of insentient seaweed.
  - lalaland1125 5y ago
    What did he say that you would consider to be wrong or unverified?
    - panny 5y ago
      I'll bite. He says it's crazy conspiracy theories. I have family hospitalized with blood clots after receiving the vax. She's out now, but that hospitalization will lead to a personal bankruptcy. It's not crazy conspiracy theory when your own family starts seeing negative effects. After watching what happened to her, nobody else in my family has any desire to get vaxxed. Nobody in my family is "anti-vax" as we've all gotten vaxed at birth, have voluntarily gotten flu vaccines in the past, etc. It's anti-this-vax, because it is not fully tested, and has caused real harm to people. What happened to "First, do no harm"?
      - colinmhayes 5y ago
        The vaccine has saved far more people than have died due to the blood clots.
        hackinthebochs 5y ago
        That's reassuring from a public health perspective, not so reassuring from an individual perspective. When it comes to one's personal risk, you have a sense of control over not getting COVID, and/or are personally at low risk of severe complications, which can weigh in favor of avoiding a vaccine with extremely rare but serious side effects.
        Nursie 5y ago
        You can, but almost always people weigh this up incorrectly.
      - miloignis 5y ago
        Linus is responding specifically to the allegations made that the mRNA vaccines change your genes "into a new humanoid race", which I think can reasonably count as a conspiracy theory. Additionally, I don't believe the mRNA vaccines are the ones linked to blood clots (a big part of mRNA vaccines is that they should be safer and more effective!), but I'm sorry to hear about your family member's hospitalization. I think vaccination is the best thing we can do cost/benefit wise and recommend it wholeheartedly, but I respect those waiting for more testing if they continue to take appropriate precautions. Good luck to you and yours!
      - Nursie 5y ago
        Do you recognise how rare a reaction that is? Compared to adverse effects of the disease itself?
      - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
        I’m sorry your family member had this serious but exceedingly rare reaction to the vaccine, but here’s the thing: when, exactly, do you propose making the call to go ahead and get your family vaccinated? When vaccines are provably 100% safe? Probably not. So how about five nines, 99.999% safe? Well, no, apparently that’s not good enough for you, because that’s roughly what we’ve got. When it comes to fatal reactions to the vaccines, it’s past six nines. And of course, that still means that out of 330 million Americans, we could expect 33 to die from the vaccine! That’s dozens! Compared to over a half a million dead and still counting from Covid-19. Again, it sucks that serious, life-threatening side effects from the vaccine are possible, and sucks more than you’ve been personally touched by them. But the chances are still literally orders of magnitude greater that you will suffer serious, life-threatening side effects if you get Covid-19. Including blood clots. More people have been hospitalized by or even died from blood clots caused by Covid than they have from the blood clots caused by the vaccines. By a lot.
    - moralestapia 5y ago
      Well, there's a lot of evidence for mRNA transfer between species in other kingdoms; read on about reverse transcriptase[1] that is literally how some viruses spread when they enter the human body. Whether that mechanism still goes on when some of the components are missing, well, we presume it won't happen but there's not enough and definite evidence for that. And for those who love appealing to authority, I do have bachelor and master degrees in bioscience, unlike Linus and most of the readers here, so :^) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase Edit, happens all the time, in many different contexts: [2]: https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/4/735/620265 https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/4/735/620265 [3]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19396360701876815 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/193963607018768... [4]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00294-018-0844-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00294-018-0844-6 [5]: https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/19/5/1015 https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/19/5/1015 <-- not sure about this one, I only skimmed it I could go on and on, but you get the idea, if there's something you learn (or should learn) in biology is that the exception is the rule. Edit 2: Lol, would love to read you comments on this: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118
      - zamalek 5y ago
        The mRNA in this case has chromosomes that cannot be replicated by nature. You might try researching the mRNA vaccine.
        moralestapia 5y ago
        That's what you don't seem to get. I'm not saying it does happen, neither am I saying it does not happen. There's not enough evidence, that's it. Why is that so hard to grasp? And there's evidence of it happening in plenty of other contexts, so one wouldn't be crazy to believe that at least, in principle, it could happen here as well.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - enb 5y ago
    No, the anger has been adequately directed in this instance.
- emilsedgh 5y ago
  Good.
- marcodiego 5y ago
  This is much more gentle than the old Torvalds.
  - foxpurple 5y ago
    He should bring back the “retroactively aborted” comment.
- swinnipeg 5y ago
  And this... >But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me. He hasn't lost his fastball!
- daguava 5y ago
  Sometimes people need to be yelled at and shut down - antivax is one of them.
- ttt0 5y ago
  It's okay only when he acts like that towards people we don't like. But if it's me being stupid then he's unwelcoming and toxic.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  It's kind of "his house". He isn't going to let someone use his platform to spew something he considers to be not only clearly wrong, but dangerously harmful. If I owned a newsgroup, I might well feel the same.
- rodgerd 5y ago
  He's mostly changed quite a bit. I think this is a good case where Linus can have a little rant, as a treat.
deadite 5y ago
>Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies. Thanks Linus. I think I'll pass. Edit: Keep the downvotes coming lads, don't let off the gas pedal now.
the-dude 5y ago
But Linus is not a doctor or biologist, so no expertise to speak of. And the infection rate dropped to almost zero last summer as well, no vaccine in sight at the time.
- mnouquet 5y ago
  He's not a doctor, but considered as a God by a certain crowd, which allow his to spread the Gospel.
  - zipotm 5y ago
    "Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain"
    - mnouquet 5y ago
      Fuck it, I kill Gods in my spare time and desecrate their remains, no matter their political leanings.
weatherlight 5y ago
I cant +1 this enough. Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground.
- dvt 5y ago
  > Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground. Being a pompous ass might feel good, especially when you think you are (or you actually are) smarter than your opponent, but it won't sway anyone. In fact, it does quite the opposite. If you're seriously trying to convince someone they're wrong, you need to be kind, be patient, and have a calm, productive discussion -- explaining how traditional vaccines work, how mRNA works, how DNA works, and so on. Yelling at someone on a mailing list will undoubtedly push them further into their comfortable anti-vax bubble. Linus is absolutely wrong to behave this way, but then again, emotional intelligence isn't really his (or HN's for that matter) forte.
  - seattle_spring 5y ago
    Maybe so, but I've observed that attitude to be far more prevalent on the anti-vax side than the pro-science side. You don't really see people who advocate for the vaccine calling anyone who disagrees "sheeple," "NPCs," etc., nor do they whine about downvotes or "being silenced," or misattribute moderation to first amendment violations.
    - AndrewBissell 5y ago
      > You don't really see people who advocate for the vaccine calling anyone who disagrees "sheeple," "NPCs," etc No, the rough equivalents are "anti-vaxxer" or "crazy," there's even an "insane" right at the top of the Torvalds email. And they don't tend to complain about being silenced because that's a treatment they are often advocating for others and rarely if ever see applied to themselves.
    - mandmandam 5y ago
      Not all vaccines are the same, so pro science and anti vaxx are not always opposed. I am pro science, but science doesn't claim that all vaccines are safe. And let's not forget that pharma co's have tried very hard to make vaccines mandatory, to the point of bribing academics and officials, forming unaccountable PR groups, and in the not so distant past they've done truly horrific and inhuman things. After the lab-leak theory has gained traction recently, after being told for a year by Lancet and politicians and academics that it was "impossible", I would have thought that the idea of there being some "pro-science" monolith would have lost ground.
swayvil 5y ago
I'm with Linus. The vaccine is bad news. The fellow replying to him is strawmanning and handwaving.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  Read the post again, but slower. Finnish accent on the second (not quoted) part.
  - swayvil 5y ago
    ok my bad. Linus is pro vax. Ya I gotta read slower.
- eindiran 5y ago
  Linus is the guy replying.
  - swayvil 5y ago
    Ya I got alerted to that already.
OptionX 5y ago
Why are people talking about this in Linux Kernel Mailing list? This trend of social and political issues having to be discussed absolutely everywhere ad nauseam is the most deranged thing.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  It's because they are discussing the plans for their next in-person Linux conference and whether they should require vaccinations.
- viraptor 5y ago
  It's just an impression that things are different. Newsgroups couple of decades ago had just as much off-topic or purely trolly politics.
- krastanov 5y ago
  If you click on the two previous messages and the two followup messages it is pretty clear that the discussion makes total sense (organizing in-person conferences), and that a moderator stepped in to stop the conspiracy-theory tangent before it devolves into a flamewar.
lsllc 5y ago
Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27466344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27466344
miked85 5y ago
I am not sure why one would care about what Linus, or the person he is talking to says, Neither is an expert in the field.
- hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
  Asshole or not, Linus is a role model for many. I bet a throwaway comment he makes about $EDITOR would change the preferred value for tens of people. How many people who have never touched kernel source vaguely follow his antics?
- pyuser583 5y ago
  I agree with you. Too many people have opinions about too many things. In regards to COVID the folks managing the response are encouraging it. They’re using influencers and celebrities to “echo” their messages. Heaven forbid we leave the influencers out of the loop and just go to the CDCs website. Some people care about what Linus thinks about COVID. That terrifies me.
- mkw2k 5y ago
  It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to understand why people care about what Linus says on 'Hacker News'
  - miked85 5y ago
    I wouldn't actually care what a rocket scientist has to say about mRNA vaccines either.
macksd 5y ago
Absolutely agree with everything Linus says here. But I'm almost equally concerned that there's an awful lot of people on the pro-science bandwagon who don't actually support science, but simply don't tolerate dissent or questioning, and that's unscientific and potentially harmful too. I scanned most of the Pfizer trial and was wondering why we expected the immunity after the vaccine to last longer than natural immunity. A typical infection can last for several weeks, so your immune system is presumably exposed to the virus for a similar period of time. And after a natural infection I hear 6 months being thrown around as a typical window of immunity. But I was hearing claims of vaccines lasting for years, when they were only in the trials for less than 6 months. Why is this? Fortunately I know a lot of people in the medical field. I asked a nurse who had been in a COVID ICU ward since this began. No idea, he said. Good question. I asked a few others: same answer. I asked several anesthesiologist friends: they did more med-school after all. Mostly no idea. One suggested that the vaccine might be more targeted and get a more potent response, maybe? I tried casting a wider net on Facebook, and got a few nastygrams about how I was spreading uneducated FUD. I asked if they knew the answer but I was told to listen to the experts and read the science, whatever that means to these people. One friend did send me a link to a quote by the Moderna CEO that implied they have machines that can count antibody concentrations and they tracked it over time - I had no idea about that, so that was cool. Eventually someone referred me to their cousin in nursing school who referred me to their brother-in-law who is actually an epidemiologist, and he told me it was a good question and explained all sorts of things about the various types of cells involved in the immune response and how the vaccine delivery invokes a very specific response that is, as one of the doctors suspected, much more targeted at something less likely to change, and how those immune cell types produce longer-lasting immunity. Now I was satisfied and learned something. But those people in the middle think of themselves as being pro-science but they're really not. And the more they engage with anti-vaxxers the more ammunition anti-vaxxers will think they have and the more they'll dig into their beliefs. It's not good.
- tptacek 5y ago
  Why would you expect a nurse in a COVID ward and an anesthesiologist to have strong answers on this question? Vaccinology is laboratory science. My son works in a vaccinology lab; as far as I know, nobody there has been to med school.
mindfulplay 5y ago
This is good. Now states are combating such hesitancy by drawing lottery for vaccinated folks. Like, having this magic, absolutely mind boggling potion that prevents serious illness and death *isn't* already the lottery win of our lifetime?? People in India and elsewhere are dying because of lack of vaccines and here we have educated, first world countries struggle to get their citizens vaccinated. Unfortunately shaming such people will only push them further into antivax territory.
- swader999 5y ago
  Same with the push for vaccine passports. Really gets my fur up and question why the need for heavy hands.
  - azinman2 5y ago
    It's already been the case that various countries require certain vaccines to enter, or other health clearances. These kinds of standards and even more exceptional for animals, and ultra protective for plants. Why is this any different? Why wouldn't you want someone protected from bringing a (newly) preventable disease into your country?
    - skjoldr 5y ago
      Because a passport represents a centralized storage of medical data, and that's always a bad idea.
      - 542458 5y ago
        I don’t think there’s any central storage for ICVPs today. As far as I know the records are just held by whoever normally holds your health records - the WHO trusts centres to only certify responsibly.
      - swader999 5y ago
        And Hippa concerns, this status will likely be resold as well.
pxf 5y ago
5 stars reply! Well Done Linus! :)
The_rationalist 5y ago
I recently learned that one can "durably" (aka for months) alter the expression of it's genes though epigenetic changes. This can be induced by some peptide drugs such as bromantane and is a very interesting biohack/pharmacological mechanism of action.
cronix 5y ago
I wonder if Mr. Torvalds has listened to Robert W. Malone, M.D., M.S., who is the inventor if mRNA vaccines, on his views on this subject. Here's a podcast that he did today with a few others. https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=581 https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=581 His bio: https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us
- dqpb 5y ago
  Isn’t Katalin Karikó the inventor of mRNA vaccines?
  - mkw2k 5y ago
    Something's not adding up here
    - aazzz 5y ago
      Seems pretty clear after some legwork. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine Robert Malone was first to the scene developing RNA vaccines, Katalin Karikó "attempted to solve some of the main technical barriers to introducing mRNA into cells" and "solved one of the key technical barriers by using modified nucleosides to get mRNA inside cells without setting off the body's defense system." Because the powers that be ie Media, Academia favor and cover Katalin she may be nominated for the Nobel even. Malone to date goes unacknowledged in most cases just like we've seen so often in so many discoveries. Katalin herself supposedly agreed that she made improvements on the works of others but news stories rarely if ever reveal the "others". Perhaps sooner rather than later, credit and acknowledgements will come.
- mohanmca 5y ago
  In a interview (few years back), Linus mentioned that he read many books related to Genes and medical science related to that! He supposed to be expert in that domain too!
- pjc50 5y ago
  Something odd here; he's investing a lot of effort into denying Kariko's role in mRNA and he looks like a very determined self promoter.
DoreenMichele 5y ago
mRNA doesn't change your genetic sequence in any way. It is the exact same intermediate - and temporary - kind of material that your cells generate internally all the time as part of your normal cell processes The m in mRNA stands for messenger. I'm failing to find anything I consider to be a succinct explanation in layman's terms (other than the one in the piece under discussion: all that the mRNA vaccines do is to add a dose their own specialized sequence that then makes your normal cell machinery generate that spike protein so that your body learns how to recognize it.). But from what I gather, mRNA vaccines basically inject your body with a coded recipe for how to manufacture the immune stuff it normally manufactures in reaction to an infection, only without having to first be infected. Not even with a dead version of the virus, as some vaccines use for trying to prompt the body to figure this out more safely than by actually catching the infection. A few sources I looked at, without feeling satisfied with their explanations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messenger_RNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messenger_RNA https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/messenger-rna https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/messenger-rna https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/translation-dna-to-mrna-to-protein-393/ https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/translation-dna-to... Edit: Thank you to everyone supplying a more accurate explanation in layman's terms. Much appreciated.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  Nobody tell these guys about the adenovirus platform, which actually does enter the nucleus [1]. (For the avoidance of doubt, it doesn’t tamper with your DNA.) [1] https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91604 https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/9160...
- refulgentis 5y ago
  The mRNA recipe is for a distinctive spike protein on mainstream COVID, your cells unwittingly produce this spike protein, then your immune system says "what's this garbage?" and attacks it.
- dqpb 5y ago
  > But from what I gather, mRNA vaccines basically inject your body with a coded recipe for how to manufacture the immune stuff That’s not correct. The coded recipe is for covid’s spike proteins. Your body manufactures a bunch of those spike proteins and then has an immune response to them.
mkw2k 5y ago
Here we go
piinbinary 5y ago
The way I like to think about it (not sure how accurate this is) is that mRNA is like a letter sent by your DNA. mRNA vaccines forge your DNA's handwriting and write a letter that looks like it came from your DNA, but didn't.
- outworlder 5y ago
  And COVID is a printing press for scam letters.
losvedir 5y ago
I'm vaccinated but I think it's hindsight bias to say the mRNA vaccines are obviously safe. We had to wait for clinical trials to show that. There has been a great deal of research and development on the delivery of the mRNA, what kind of molecule to wrap it in, for example. Additionally, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with e.g. the Spanish Flu, the morbidity was not from the flu, per se, but the immune response to it (cytokine storm, which I believe is implicated in Covid somewhat, too). If that's the case, could the proteins coded by the mRNA potentially have kicked off such a response? I know we see that it doesn't, but could it have?
- radpl 5y ago
  Not really, because your muscle where you got shot was mostly producing spike proteins. When you get the virus, it replicates in your lungs, immunity response happens there and if it’s too strong, it can destroy your lung tissue and cause death.
- outworlder 5y ago
  > If that's the case, could the proteins coded by the mRNA potentially have kicked off such a response? Why would they? And more specifically, why would they cause lung issues? Because that's the main problem with COVID. The virus like to bind to cells that have a specific receptors, with the vast majority contained in lung tissue. You would expect to see major damage near the injection site if your cytokine storm theory had weight, but not much else. If there is a mechanism that will cause side effects on mRNA vaccines, then such mechanism will also be presented in the virus. Except it's a localized, self-limited amount, as mRNA cannot replicate. Viruses can.
  - jfkgktjjj 5y ago
    > If there is a mechanism that will cause side effects on mRNA vaccines, then such mechanism will also be presented in the virus. You're forgetting about the lipids the vaccine mRNA is put into. One big reason it took so long to create mRNA vaccines was finding a suitable lipid mix. They need to have a specific property, they need to be electrically charged in a certain way, and pretty much all lipids with that property are extremely toxic. The equivalent lipids in the virus don't have this problem because they come from the human cell membrane and they use the spike protein to fuse. Since the vaccine doesn't have a spike protein, it needs that special charge property to be able to spill it's mRNA. The question now is, if it took sooo long to find those lipids, just what the safety margin on them is? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433582/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433582/ https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-lipid-shells-mRNA-vaccines/99/i8 https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-li...
premium-komodo 5y ago
If you think it might be a little inappropriate to care much about a programmer's endorsement of a vaccine, here's an actual famous doctor saying "for God's sake don't take this thing". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBv3A8-ShI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBv3A8-ShI
- alexvoda 5y ago
  Ok, I'll bite. I was willing to assume he might have some legitimate concern. A quick Google hoever reveals he was a Covid denier from the start. There is plenty of evidence that the pandemic is real. Why should the oppinion about the risk of the cure of someone who denied the risk of of the pandemic, be relevant? How does a credentialed person go off the rails so badly??
  - premium-komodo 5y ago
    You're assuming your own hypothesis. In this thread, the "believe the science" people are elevating the opinion of some unqualified celebrity because he has the "correct" opinion, and ignoring/suppressing the opinion of a highly qualified expert because he was the "wrong" opinion.
jasonhansel 5y ago
Finally, a Linus Torvalds rant that seems both justified and proportionate!
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Arguably they usually are. Nvidia comes to mind.
swader999 5y ago
Ivermectin and HCQ sure got shut down hard even though recent studies are giving them some credit. If they had been a valid option, emergency use authorisation wouldn't have been granted. I honestly don't know what to think about all of this. I've seen a lot of censorship and stifling of speech. Reading Fauci's emails also makes me hesitate. I think trust in the experts will really take a hit going forward. I did get the AZ vaccine a few weeks ago. Yesterday I had a flame heme show up on a retina scan at the eye doc. Was it the vax? Perhaps, the Oxford UK study said these kinds of events are slightly more likely from what they've seen.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Reading Fauci's emails also makes me hesitate. Which ones, specifically? I keep seeing people say this. There are thousands of pages in the PDF and no one seems to be able to quote anything actually concerning.
  - swader999 5y ago
    They are all over the web. But clearly if you take them all in, you come away from it with the impression that he really pushed gain of function research and hid the fact once this took off last spring. Most of what he said in hind sight and with these emails seems to be more about politics and less about science and educating the masses. The messaging on masks should have been that only n95 or better are worth the time. One email to a friend pretty much said that.
    - threeseed 5y ago
      > The messaging on masks should have been that only n95 or better are worth the time Which is simply rubbish. Masks of all kinds will prevent transmission albeit with varying levels of efficacy. And most importantly they impact human behaviour in ways which prevent transmission. Not to mention that N95 masks are more expensive which would have reduced its use by people who are poorer and are far more likely to spread the virus i.e. they are more likely to have multiple jobs, travel further for their job, work longer hours etc.
throwawaysea 5y ago
> The half-life of mRNA is a few hours. Any injected mRNA will be all gone from your body in a day or two. Can someone with more knowledge comment on whether this is true for components of the vaccine that aren't just the mRNA bits? I am not sure, but I assume there are various other components that form the delivery vehicle for the vaccine, stabilize it for storage, and so on. What are the actual mechanisms for those to be 'gone from the body'?
- lamontcg 5y ago
  The lipid nanoparticle is just lipids. Unless you happen to have an allergic reaction to the specific components you should worry a lot more about eating a cheeseburger and what eliminates all those chemicals from your system. The mRNA delivery system is about as close to "nothing" as you can get.
- ufo 5y ago
  Here's the list of excipients in the Pfizer vaccine: 1. ALC-0312 2. ALC-0159 3. 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine 4. cholesterol 5. potassium dihydrogen phosphate 6. sodium chloride 7. disodium hydrogen phosphate dihydrate 8. sucrose 9. water The first four are various lipids, used to build the lipid nanoparticles. The body can get rid of those the same way that it would get rid any other lipid. The remaining excepients are just some salts and sugar. Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/941452/Information_for_healthcare_professionals.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  I think that's kind of irrelevant, since those bits aren't the part that were causing concern. Nobody's worried that the part that stabilizes it for storage is going to "create a new humanoid race". That's purely based on (a misunderstanding of) the mRNA.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    I wasn’t asking out of that same motivation. I was just wondering how true it is that the body gets rid of all the components of the vaccine and simply retains the benefit of antibodies with no “vaccine remnants”.
29athrowaway 5y ago
This is the most appropriate tone you can use to deliver a message to anti-vaxxers, which is the only one they understand. We need more Linuses. I have engaged many anti-vaxxers in different tones, and a polite tone usually does not resonate with them much because "political correctness" is perceived as a lack of authenticity. Profanity and emotion resonates more with them, because that is the way you talk to people you trust.
mnouquet 5y ago
Meanwhile the CDC to meet on rare heart inflammation following COVID vaccines - https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-meet-rare-heart-inflammation-193230829.html https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-meet-rare-heart-inflammation-1932...
ksec 5y ago
Highlight of the reply >But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me. I dont know why I cant stop laughing.
rangewookie 5y ago
I'm glad Linus stepped in on this one. Unrelated question here - how are people actually consuming mailing lists like this? I always find these links difficult to read and have always assumed there much be some superior format, alternative typefaces for one.
- outworlder 5y ago
  They are getting messages on their email inbox?
- ufo 5y ago
  A good Email client can do a good job of displaying the messages, and sorting them into appropriate folders. But if you are not subscribed, then all the web ui's I've seen for mailing lists are painful to use.
- smw 5y ago
  news.gmame.io isn't a terrible option, if you can find a newsreader.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bikamonki 5y ago
One does not mess with The Linus :)
- mnouquet 5y ago
  There is no such things as "The Linus". He's just a man.
  - bikamonki 5y ago
    One never calls The Linus just a man.
    - mnouquet 5y ago
      Fuck Linus. Outside of the Linux kernel and version control, his opinions isn't worth the electrons used to transmit it.
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
There are a range of anti-vaccine opinions from idiotic (the example Linus quotes) to more reasonable. The way this issue has been handled is emblematic of the way many such political issues are handled: fringe views are promoted and "debunked" while more reasonable views that go against mainstream narratives are ignored. This is amplified by various high profile personalities in the media who shape the views people are presented with, so that all critics of the mainstream narrative appear to be lunatics. Thus stigmatizing anyone who has a more reasonable objection. This is not a new phenomenon but has played out much more frequently over the last year or so. Also, I got the vaccine, so if you interpret this as some sort of veiled anti-vaccine comment you are part of the problem.
- berkes 5y ago
  Do you have any examples of such 'reasonable views' that are ignored? Because I don't. I do see a lot of reasonable objections making headlines or having a large impact. E.g. side effects halting entire campaigns for weeks, or large articles highlighting the dowsides of various vaccines, debates on particle sizes and fluid dynamics on national TV and so on.
  - tim333 5y ago
    That it could make sense for low risk people to wait and see how it goes?
    - bartimus 5y ago
      See how it goes to get infected with the virus? It didn't pass any clinical trial.
      - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
        Pretty good chance you never get infected though (or at least don't get infected for a couple of years when there will be more information). Especially if you live in certain areas.
    - 5y ago
bitL 5y ago
I am eagerly awaiting my vaccine, however we are all alpha/beta testers. A real concern is about safety of those vaccines as typically they require ~3 years of testing and a single fatality aborts their use. Would you give alpha version to people you love? Why is this concern downplayed? I understand statistics but we have no clue what could go wrong in an early version of a new technology and no data on long-term impact. It's all a big experiment.
- Romanulus 5y ago
  Good point. Also, the deaths involved to these vaccines are much higher than previous runs (think it was swine flu), where vaccinations were halted after 25 or so fatalities. Ultimately, get it if you want it... your helmet doesn't require other people to wear theirs.
- symlinkk 5y ago
  Exactly. The vaccines did not go through the FDA’s typical approval process, they got emergency approval, but the standard approval process is still ongoing. mRNA vaccines have never been used in a large scale setting outside of clinical trials before. Are they safe? Almost certainly. Do we know that for sure yet? No. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? For me, yes.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - azinman2 5y ago
    But that's not true. They've been used for years with cancer at minimum.
    - symlinkk 5y ago
      Outside of clinical trials? Where did you see that?
      - azinman2 5y ago
walrus01 5y ago
The past year has been very instructive (and slightly scary) in revealing the sheer staggering depths of lack of scientific knowledge, and respect for the scientific process, among a vocal but aggressive small percentage of the population. These people truly have no idea of how much education is involved in getting a doctorate level degree in virology, epidemiology or genetics.
indolering 5y ago
I saw the headline and I thought, "Why do I care what Linus has to say about vaccines? He's just a programmer!" But then I clicked the link and realized that it was a classic Linus rant! As much as I support codes of conduct and Linus curtailing his asshole behavior regarding technical matters, I think there should be a loophole for anti-vaxxers and other nut jobs who don't care that they might transmit a deadly disease to the immunocompromised or children.
- adamrezich 5y ago
  Linus rants are bad and he shouldn't do them when it comes to the integrity of the thing he's spent his life working on... but when it's about something We Can All Agree With, Right Guys, then they're good? ok lol
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  It's a bit disingenuous of you to state that anti-vax people "don't care". Have you actually engaged with any of them? They probably care a lot more than you and me about this stuff, they've just gone to the wrong conclusions. Also, you generally support Linus curtailing his asshole behavior, but you want to make an exception for anti-vax people? Why? You want them to burrow down harder into their anti-science bunkers? Why? Is that going to make the world a better place somehow? Do _you_ care?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - quenix 5y ago
    I don't think that the point is to convince the insane anti-vaxxer in the mailing list. They are too far gone. Rather, it's to prevent further radicalisation.
    - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
      Radicalization is not a binary feature. Outcasting people who are one foot inside the anti-vax camp can push them into the crazy zone both feet in.
H8crilA 5y ago
Just to clear one thing: Vaccines actually do edit the genetic code, but only of some select B-cells. And so does any other antigen that your body develops antibodies for. The process is very complicated and beautiful, and is pretty much exactly the same as in plenty of other multicellular life forms. If you've ever wondered what's the "storage format" for all the recipes for all the different antibodies that your body produces, that is how does your body even remember infections from years ago - it's DNA, and the recipes are generated via a massively sped up internal evolution, mediated by T cells. The process of maturing B-cells is kind of similar to machine learning. The matured B-cells are then safely stashed away in the bone marrow. Really remarkable stuff. (I understand that Linus meant that the vaccine mRNA is not reverse transcribed into the host DNA, and that is of course the case. Also, a side note: the human genome is littered with viral genetic material accumulated over time, god knows if it's for good or for bad, we're still too dumb to answer such questions)
- Rochus 5y ago
  > The process is very complicated and beautiful And all the molecular machinery in our body is much more complex than any software system.
  - H8crilA 5y ago
    It had a bit more time to develop :) But, I don't think some software systems are far off, particularly if you are a bit more permissive with the boundaries of a "system". I don't know really how to compare such apples to oranges, but the genetic material of a human is just a single gigabyte. Now i know that a gigabyte C++ program is not on par with a gigabyte of DNA, but a terabyte of code? Maybe? We're definitely at the terabytes of code range if you look at the internet as a whole. You can also add the deep ML models, they're easily in the gigabyte ranges. Of course the complexity in the protein-based lifeform comes from the massive parallelism of the code execution (every single cell and every single ribosome!) and the massive amount of noise that the environment constantly throws at the lifeforms. Compare with the nearly pristine conditions that the sets of customized silicone crystals that we call computers operate in. Give me volatility and time, and you'll be stunned, eventually. Let's see what's next in this book :)
insane131 5y ago
I read this headline and immediately asked myself, why don't you create an account and ask these people WTF do we care what Linus thinks about that? Then I read his post. It is actually a well reasoned response to another post on LKML. Now I created an account to say I agree with Linus, understand why post is popular, but I think the headline is a bit "click-baity". Although it did make me create an account.
meibo 5y ago
Why is this not on the frontpage anymore?
dstroot 5y ago
Can't upvote this enough.
fendy3002 5y ago
Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2425/ https://xkcd.com/2425/ I haven't got one since I've had a positive last year. And I was afraid because it's new technology and too fast in delivery. However as time goes I'm not afraid of it anymore and am planning to get one. However my country only provide sinovac or AZ. I prefer pfizer biontech or moderna.
throwaway088 5y ago
Didn't Linus apologize sometime ago for talking like he talked on this list. Personally, I agree with what he says, but I dont like the tone.
cblconfederate 5y ago
Even the term antivaxxer in this case is divisive and kind of presupposes that everyone should be a provaccer. Since we are not going for herd immunity, everyone should assees their own chances before making an informed decision, which in the vast majority of cases will be to vaccinate themselves. But there are specific sideeffects in specific groups that have been documented
- H8crilA 5y ago
  Uh, we're definitely going for herd immunity. The bar for that is actually quite close to being met in some countries, including the US (if you combine past infections and vaccinated people).
- Taniwha 5y ago
  I'm old enough that I had measles as a kid, my grandma had polio as a kid wore a leg brace her entire life, rubella and the associated birth defects were a thing in the community - when I was a kid EVERYONE was a pro-vaxxer, they were the medical miracle that were changing people's lives - IMHO the main reason we have antivaxxers today is because we haven't been telling these family stories to our kids Why not go for herd immunity? maybe we should be releasing (suitably tested) live vaccines
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    I should have said there are 2 meanings of antivaxer in this context. One is the kooks who are/were against all vaccines and nother is the people who are suspicious of the covid vaccines. Those groups are separate and must be treated differently Herd immunity in the general population will probably be impossible unless the areas that reach it choose to lock themselves from the rest of the world https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/opinion/herd-immunity-covid-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/opinion/herd-immunity-cov...
User23 5y ago
RNA can conceivably alter human DNA? How, you might ask, given that human cells don’t use reverse transcriptase? Because due to ancient viral infections there’s a LINE-1[1] gene that codes for it. So it can’t be ruled out that RNA ends up encoded as DNA. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25478632/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25478632/
- kaba0 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27468123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27468123 My second paragraph.
dh2424 5y ago
This is the best thing I've read today, by far.
gfaure 5y ago
The person who posted the vaccine misinformation had undergone some personal loss for which he blames the medical system. While this doesn't excuse spreading misinformation, it helped me understand where his desire to sow doubt in organised medicine could have come from: https://patientsafetymovement.org/advocacy/patients-and-families/patient-stories/enrico-weigelt/ https://patientsafetymovement.org/advocacy/patients-and-fami...
dxuh 5y ago
"get vaccinated" should probably be heard by that person but it's still really not as easy as in Germany to get vaccinated as it might be in some other countries. I look at the UK/US/Canada (many parts of the EU) like they are on a different planet, because they are slowly going back to normal for months now, while I still can't get vaccinated here, even though I want to since the start of the year. The prioritization of old and sick people has just been lifted 4 days ago and the state I live in says that I still can't get an appointment until the mid of the month. And even then I should not get my hopes up to get an appointment quickly, as the vaccination centers have allocated their supply for second shots for the whole of June. Right now it seems likely that my employer will actually be quicker in getting a vaccine for me than my government. Actually off-topic, but it annoys me pretty much every day and I felt invited to rant by Linus assuming it's just that easy here.
sillysaurusx 5y ago
I was surprised to discover one genuine anti-vax fact: if you're diabetic and you're taking a certain drug, you must be very careful before taking the COVID vaccine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26953326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26953326 That's not really anti-vax, but an acquaintance died a couple weeks after getting vaccinated due to diabetes complications, and I've always wondered if this was the cause. I don't think I should post this without pointing out that I'm strongly pro-vax, though. It was just surprising.
- Taniwha 5y ago
  It doesn't say that, it says you should stop taking those drugs if you contract Covid, not if you are vaccinated - these are different things
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    I agree, but the reply to my PSA said otherwise.
nsonha 5y ago
I didn't even think of this before but now that i read this, i'm curious too. So basically Linus say mRNA vaccine does not change your genetic but then he proceed to say that it does exactly that to fight foreign proteins and it's ok because your cell's mRNA do that anyway. Do you see the difference? I guess there is a reason to raise concerns about the novelty of the technique, if this is indeed the first time artificial mRNA is used on the general public.
- kaba0 5y ago
  > but then he proceed to say that it does exactly that to fight foreign proteins No he doesn’t say that and is not true. mRNAs are “commands”. They encode proteins — each triplet (of nucleotides) on it will translate to one protein building block. They are semi-stable and are actively destroyed in the cell so they can only produce a few protein molecules. So injecting mRNA will give a temporary command to the cells to produce this protein so that the body can learn to defend agains them once they are released from cells.
  - nsonha 5y ago
    This is what he said and he could be wrong but I'm not making up anything > that the mRNA vaccines do is to add a dose their own specialized sequence that then makes your normal cell machinery generate that spike protein so that your body learns how to recognize it... your body now knows how to recognize and fight off a new foreign protein So what happens if some faulty proteins are created from this process, any chance they then be used to build new cells and cause disorders? I'm not on the "change genetic" argument anymore as I'm not sure what even defines that, just trying to understand the risks here.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      What Linus writes is accurate, you may have misunderstood him. A dose of mRNA is transported to a few cells, and these cells temporarily gets the command to create spike proteins. These proteins will be transported outside your body and be recognized by the immune system. There is no need to constantly create them as the immune system can learn from this alone. And it is temporary because mRNA is constantly degrading — it is a must otherwise a cell would have no way to stop manufacturing a protein after giving out a command.
aaron695 5y ago
It should have been you are banned / strike one for being off topic. Linux is not about vaccines either way. All this off topic garden shed stuff needs to be shutdown in open source. And normal companies too if they want to prosper.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  I don't know much about Linux, but if you are too quick to say something off topic cannot be discussed at all and even trying to discuss it is a bannable offense, that tends to kill conversation and interfere with getting people to participate, to get along well enough to get things done, etc.
corxi 5y ago
Sure, I will trust doctor Linus with this. And by the way, this email has been penned by a certain Enrico. After needless lockdowns and masks mandates you still think many millions of better educated people than this guy. There’s a shot for you… mine
azangru 5y ago
Ok, while Linus so righteously describes the basic molecular biology of RNA, here are some of the less insane questions that he doesn't address: 1) After an injection of mRNA (inside of lipid nanoparticles, if I understand correctly) into the body, which cells will the mRNA enter? 2) The mRNA will cause the synthesis of the spike protein that will be displayed on the surface of these cells and initiate the immune response. Since the cells expressing the spike protein will be treated as infected by the immune system, will it result in the death of these cells? If so – and depending on the answer to the previous question — is this cell death dangerous at all? 3) Following question 2, what are the chances of the development of an autoimmune response? 4) Why do some vaccine recipients seem to develop thrombotic events? 5) Is there a reason to believe that the spike protein itself has cytotoxic properties? If so, is there a reason to believe that the spike protein expressed by the cells transfected with the mRNA can get detached from their membranes and enter the bloodstream? If yes, is there any danger to that? Edit: I've phrased these questions in the most neutral language of a basic medical immunology textbook, yet, judging by the instant downvotes, I managed to upset someone. I'm not siding with the author of the email to the Linux kernel discussion list; I am merely wondering how much precisely is known about the mechanism of action of mRNA vaccines beyond the basic overview that Linus outlined.
- adamrezich 5y ago
  at some point you just have to embrace the fact that you're going to get downvoted for writing things like this, and all you can do is trust that a nonzero number of people will see the downvotes-without-replies and that that will give them pause to think
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  People have been downvote-happy since, roughly, the beginning of the pandemic. And I saw multiple reddits gain a lot of new members during lock down. I haven't seen numbers for HN, but I assume there has been an influx of new people here as well because, wow, is the Eternal September especially bad of late. You are probably asking questions to which we don't have answers. Someone with medical credentials once told me "You are asking questions they don't have answers for. That's not how medical studies work." and I think people get cranky any time you ask questions the studies aren't designed to answer. For many people, it likely smacks of "You are just being a smartass." and "How dare you make the authorities look dumb!" or something like that. 4) Why do some vaccine recipients seem to develop thrombotic events? My assumption would be that this is related to the fact that the infection itself seems to cause blood clots and my general impression is that what it does to the blood system is a significant issue and a large part of why it is deadly. I am not a medical professional. I'm just a random internet stranger who reads and is making conversation on the internet.
belorn 5y ago
Looking from a intellectual curiosity perspective, I wonder if taking the vaccine/getting sick can have a epigenetic effect.
throw7 5y ago
I hate to be a pedant, but covid-19 is the disease. SARS-CoV-2 is the virus. Sure, "Covid-19 virus" is in the vernacular, but when you're fighting misinformation, it doesn't help to then use misnomers.
mallow 5y ago
Superb reply
User23 5y ago
Why is this anymore relevant than Banksy’s opinion on Rust in the Linux kernel? It’s really annoying how many people think that because they are competent at a limited subset of discrete mathematics that people should care what they think about subjects where they are basically ignorant.
inigojonesguy 5y ago
A good, no nonsense reply! The world is complicated. There are so many people who want the vaccine and can't access it and other people who do have access to the vaccine and don't want it.
phroobster 5y ago
I’ve already been diagnosed with covid and it was fine, a little worse than an average cold. Why should I take a vaccine and risk side effects for a disease with a 99.9% survival rate, when I’m not even bothered by it? Doesn’t make sense to me.
- mmmqaq 5y ago
  You are the lucky person who only has a little symptom. The vaccine is for stopping the transmission so that the unlucky people won't get and die from COVID. Then the economy and the world can go back to normal.
- mmmqaq 5y ago
  The probablity of survival from taking the vaccine more than 99.9%, so the benifits of vaccine is larger than the risk.
  - phroobster 5y ago
    Even if the risk is minuscule, I just have no incentive to subject myself to additional risk.
ghoward 5y ago
My reply to Linus: https://gavinhoward.com/2021/06/a-letter-to-linus-torvalds/ https://gavinhoward.com/2021/06/a-letter-to-linus-torvalds/ .
- grae_QED 5y ago
  >it is a bad judgment call to parrot a line about experimental medical treatments You do realize that medical science has been doing vaccines for a while now. Really, there's no reason to think that there are any long term side effects to the covid-19 vaccine. Medical scientists aren't reinventing the wheel with covid-19. They already have blue prints from other corona viruses to work off of. There's nothing experimental going on here.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    Uh...mRNA vaccines are experimental. And every vaccine is different. Just because other vaccines are good doesn't mean these are.
senectus1 5y ago
Its strange how relieved I am that he's anti-antivaxxer. Knowing some of the people I look up to in the world are not complete and utter morons is cathartic.
mehta_rohan 5y ago
beast mode on
fastglass 5y ago
if your own body is manufacturing it then how is it foreign material?
DeusExMachina 5y ago
> I think you are in Germany, and COVID-19 numbers are going down. It's spreading a lot less these days, largely because people around you have started getting the vaccine The official position of the government here in The Netherlands is that you can still spread the virus after being vaccinated [1]. If I recall correctly, this has been the official position internationally since the beginning. Also, cases went down sharply during the same period last year in all Europe thanks to the weather and without vaccines. In the UK, which has a much higher vaccination rate than the EU, cases are currently rising. Correlation is not causation. [1] https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/visiting-the-netherlands-from-abroad/mandatory-negative-test-results-and-declaration/mandatory-when-travelling-from-a-high-risk-country https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/visiti...
anti-soyboy 5y ago
WOW now the key picker degree comes with a pharmaceutics commercial major in vaccines. The 2x1 are coming to your neighborhood universities.
dennis_jeeves 5y ago
Anti-vaxer here, AMA about my anti-vax stand. I will only respond to people who are serious. There is a section of the pro-vax crowd that is indeed scratching their head as to why there are some apparently intelligent people that they know are anti-vaxers. IMHO, they deserve an explanation. Hopefully I come across as someone intelligent and sane.
mbergal 5y ago
Yes, this was great explanation, but what about mRNA biodistribution?
Nasreddin_Hodja 5y ago
Don't blame antivaccine fans, they are afraid of blobs just like opensource fans ))
randomNumber7 5y ago
It's so sad that there are so many anti-vaxxers. It's also sad that when they actually need treatment in hospital the society (public health insurance) will still pay for the stupidity . They should at least be charged for it.
hidden-spyder 5y ago
I find it really weird that emails with addresses in them are shared publicly like this. And this is a private conversation.

763 points by blacktulip 5y ago

> And if you insist on believing in the crazy conspiracy theories, at least SHUT THE HELL UP about it on Linux kernel discussion lists. I see Linus still hasn't changed much.

moralestapia 5y ago
Yeah, the anger management sessions didn't do much. Also, some of the things he states are wrong (or unverified) as well. I wish people had the maturity of being able to discuss sensitive topics without having it degenerate into a visceral fight. For instance, I'm not being rude or anything, I'm just sharing my knowledge from 10+ or so years doing science, not pushing an agenda and presenting arguments in a civilized manner. Yet, for some reason, some people don't like that, go figure. Similar to the chinese leak fiasco, it was a natural question to ask yet the agenda was to bury it as it if was wrong to question those things. A bit sad to be somebody who is just following the tides like some sort of insentient seaweed.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  What did he say that you would consider to be wrong or unverified?
  - panny 5y ago
    I'll bite. He says it's crazy conspiracy theories. I have family hospitalized with blood clots after receiving the vax. She's out now, but that hospitalization will lead to a personal bankruptcy. It's not crazy conspiracy theory when your own family starts seeing negative effects. After watching what happened to her, nobody else in my family has any desire to get vaxxed. Nobody in my family is "anti-vax" as we've all gotten vaxed at birth, have voluntarily gotten flu vaccines in the past, etc. It's anti-this-vax, because it is not fully tested, and has caused real harm to people. What happened to "First, do no harm"?
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      The vaccine has saved far more people than have died due to the blood clots.
      - hackinthebochs 5y ago
        That's reassuring from a public health perspective, not so reassuring from an individual perspective. When it comes to one's personal risk, you have a sense of control over not getting COVID, and/or are personally at low risk of severe complications, which can weigh in favor of avoiding a vaccine with extremely rare but serious side effects.
        Nursie 5y ago
        You can, but almost always people weigh this up incorrectly.
    - miloignis 5y ago
      Linus is responding specifically to the allegations made that the mRNA vaccines change your genes "into a new humanoid race", which I think can reasonably count as a conspiracy theory. Additionally, I don't believe the mRNA vaccines are the ones linked to blood clots (a big part of mRNA vaccines is that they should be safer and more effective!), but I'm sorry to hear about your family member's hospitalization. I think vaccination is the best thing we can do cost/benefit wise and recommend it wholeheartedly, but I respect those waiting for more testing if they continue to take appropriate precautions. Good luck to you and yours!
    - Nursie 5y ago
      Do you recognise how rare a reaction that is? Compared to adverse effects of the disease itself?
    - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
      I’m sorry your family member had this serious but exceedingly rare reaction to the vaccine, but here’s the thing: when, exactly, do you propose making the call to go ahead and get your family vaccinated? When vaccines are provably 100% safe? Probably not. So how about five nines, 99.999% safe? Well, no, apparently that’s not good enough for you, because that’s roughly what we’ve got. When it comes to fatal reactions to the vaccines, it’s past six nines. And of course, that still means that out of 330 million Americans, we could expect 33 to die from the vaccine! That’s dozens! Compared to over a half a million dead and still counting from Covid-19. Again, it sucks that serious, life-threatening side effects from the vaccine are possible, and sucks more than you’ve been personally touched by them. But the chances are still literally orders of magnitude greater that you will suffer serious, life-threatening side effects if you get Covid-19. Including blood clots. More people have been hospitalized by or even died from blood clots caused by Covid than they have from the blood clots caused by the vaccines. By a lot.
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    Well, there's a lot of evidence for mRNA transfer between species in other kingdoms; read on about reverse transcriptase[1] that is literally how some viruses spread when they enter the human body. Whether that mechanism still goes on when some of the components are missing, well, we presume it won't happen but there's not enough and definite evidence for that. And for those who love appealing to authority, I do have bachelor and master degrees in bioscience, unlike Linus and most of the readers here, so :^) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase Edit, happens all the time, in many different contexts: [2]: https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/4/735/620265 https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/4/735/620265 [3]: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19396360701876815 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/193963607018768... [4]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00294-018-0844-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00294-018-0844-6 [5]: https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/19/5/1015 https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/19/5/1015 <-- not sure about this one, I only skimmed it I could go on and on, but you get the idea, if there's something you learn (or should learn) in biology is that the exception is the rule. Edit 2: Lol, would love to read you comments on this: https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118 https://www.pnas.org/content/118/21/e2105968118
    - zamalek 5y ago
      The mRNA in this case has chromosomes that cannot be replicated by nature. You might try researching the mRNA vaccine.
      - moralestapia 5y ago
        That's what you don't seem to get. I'm not saying it does happen, neither am I saying it does not happen. There's not enough evidence, that's it. Why is that so hard to grasp? And there's evidence of it happening in plenty of other contexts, so one wouldn't be crazy to believe that at least, in principle, it could happen here as well.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- enb 5y ago
  No, the anger has been adequately directed in this instance.
emilsedgh 5y ago
Good.
marcodiego 5y ago
This is much more gentle than the old Torvalds.
- foxpurple 5y ago
  He should bring back the “retroactively aborted” comment.
swinnipeg 5y ago
And this... >But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me. He hasn't lost his fastball!
daguava 5y ago
Sometimes people need to be yelled at and shut down - antivax is one of them.
ttt0 5y ago
It's okay only when he acts like that towards people we don't like. But if it's me being stupid then he's unwelcoming and toxic.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
It's kind of "his house". He isn't going to let someone use his platform to spew something he considers to be not only clearly wrong, but dangerously harmful. If I owned a newsgroup, I might well feel the same.
rodgerd 5y ago
He's mostly changed quite a bit. I think this is a good case where Linus can have a little rant, as a treat.

deadite 5y ago

>Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies. Thanks Linus. I think I'll pass. Edit: Keep the downvotes coming lads, don't let off the gas pedal now.

the-dude 5y ago

But Linus is not a doctor or biologist, so no expertise to speak of. And the infection rate dropped to almost zero last summer as well, no vaccine in sight at the time.

mnouquet 5y ago
He's not a doctor, but considered as a God by a certain crowd, which allow his to spread the Gospel.
- zipotm 5y ago
  "Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain"
  - mnouquet 5y ago
    Fuck it, I kill Gods in my spare time and desecrate their remains, no matter their political leanings.

weatherlight 5y ago

I cant +1 this enough. Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground.

dvt 5y ago
> Thank you, Linus for standing up to the wealth of misinformation out there and holding his ground. Being a pompous ass might feel good, especially when you think you are (or you actually are) smarter than your opponent, but it won't sway anyone. In fact, it does quite the opposite. If you're seriously trying to convince someone they're wrong, you need to be kind, be patient, and have a calm, productive discussion -- explaining how traditional vaccines work, how mRNA works, how DNA works, and so on. Yelling at someone on a mailing list will undoubtedly push them further into their comfortable anti-vax bubble. Linus is absolutely wrong to behave this way, but then again, emotional intelligence isn't really his (or HN's for that matter) forte.
- seattle_spring 5y ago
  Maybe so, but I've observed that attitude to be far more prevalent on the anti-vax side than the pro-science side. You don't really see people who advocate for the vaccine calling anyone who disagrees "sheeple," "NPCs," etc., nor do they whine about downvotes or "being silenced," or misattribute moderation to first amendment violations.
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    > You don't really see people who advocate for the vaccine calling anyone who disagrees "sheeple," "NPCs," etc No, the rough equivalents are "anti-vaxxer" or "crazy," there's even an "insane" right at the top of the Torvalds email. And they don't tend to complain about being silenced because that's a treatment they are often advocating for others and rarely if ever see applied to themselves.
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    Not all vaccines are the same, so pro science and anti vaxx are not always opposed. I am pro science, but science doesn't claim that all vaccines are safe. And let's not forget that pharma co's have tried very hard to make vaccines mandatory, to the point of bribing academics and officials, forming unaccountable PR groups, and in the not so distant past they've done truly horrific and inhuman things. After the lab-leak theory has gained traction recently, after being told for a year by Lancet and politicians and academics that it was "impossible", I would have thought that the idea of there being some "pro-science" monolith would have lost ground.

swayvil 5y ago

I'm with Linus. The vaccine is bad news. The fellow replying to him is strawmanning and handwaving.

alkonaut 5y ago
Read the post again, but slower. Finnish accent on the second (not quoted) part.
- swayvil 5y ago
  ok my bad. Linus is pro vax. Ya I gotta read slower.
eindiran 5y ago
Linus is the guy replying.
- swayvil 5y ago
  Ya I got alerted to that already.

OptionX 5y ago

Why are people talking about this in Linux Kernel Mailing list? This trend of social and political issues having to be discussed absolutely everywhere ad nauseam is the most deranged thing.

lalaland1125 5y ago
It's because they are discussing the plans for their next in-person Linux conference and whether they should require vaccinations.
viraptor 5y ago
It's just an impression that things are different. Newsgroups couple of decades ago had just as much off-topic or purely trolly politics.
krastanov 5y ago
If you click on the two previous messages and the two followup messages it is pretty clear that the discussion makes total sense (organizing in-person conferences), and that a moderator stepped in to stop the conspiracy-theory tangent before it devolves into a flamewar.

lsllc 5y ago

Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27466344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27466344

miked85 5y ago

I am not sure why one would care about what Linus, or the person he is talking to says, Neither is an expert in the field.

hsbauauvhabzb 5y ago
Asshole or not, Linus is a role model for many. I bet a throwaway comment he makes about $EDITOR would change the preferred value for tens of people. How many people who have never touched kernel source vaguely follow his antics?
pyuser583 5y ago
I agree with you. Too many people have opinions about too many things. In regards to COVID the folks managing the response are encouraging it. They’re using influencers and celebrities to “echo” their messages. Heaven forbid we leave the influencers out of the loop and just go to the CDCs website. Some people care about what Linus thinks about COVID. That terrifies me.
mkw2k 5y ago
It doesn't really take a rocket scientist to understand why people care about what Linus says on 'Hacker News'
- miked85 5y ago
  I wouldn't actually care what a rocket scientist has to say about mRNA vaccines either.

macksd 5y ago

Absolutely agree with everything Linus says here. But I'm almost equally concerned that there's an awful lot of people on the pro-science bandwagon who don't actually support science, but simply don't tolerate dissent or questioning, and that's unscientific and potentially harmful too. I scanned most of the Pfizer trial and was wondering why we expected the immunity after the vaccine to last longer than natural immunity. A typical infection can last for several weeks, so your immune system is presumably exposed to the virus for a similar period of time. And after a natural infection I hear 6 months being thrown around as a typical window of immunity. But I was hearing claims of vaccines lasting for years, when they were only in the trials for less than 6 months. Why is this? Fortunately I know a lot of people in the medical field. I asked a nurse who had been in a COVID ICU ward since this began. No idea, he said. Good question. I asked a few others: same answer. I asked several anesthesiologist friends: they did more med-school after all. Mostly no idea. One suggested that the vaccine might be more targeted and get a more potent response, maybe? I tried casting a wider net on Facebook, and got a few nastygrams about how I was spreading uneducated FUD. I asked if they knew the answer but I was told to listen to the experts and read the science, whatever that means to these people. One friend did send me a link to a quote by the Moderna CEO that implied they have machines that can count antibody concentrations and they tracked it over time - I had no idea about that, so that was cool. Eventually someone referred me to their cousin in nursing school who referred me to their brother-in-law who is actually an epidemiologist, and he told me it was a good question and explained all sorts of things about the various types of cells involved in the immune response and how the vaccine delivery invokes a very specific response that is, as one of the doctors suspected, much more targeted at something less likely to change, and how those immune cell types produce longer-lasting immunity. Now I was satisfied and learned something. But those people in the middle think of themselves as being pro-science but they're really not. And the more they engage with anti-vaxxers the more ammunition anti-vaxxers will think they have and the more they'll dig into their beliefs. It's not good.

tptacek 5y ago
Why would you expect a nurse in a COVID ward and an anesthesiologist to have strong answers on this question? Vaccinology is laboratory science. My son works in a vaccinology lab; as far as I know, nobody there has been to med school.

mindfulplay 5y ago

This is good. Now states are combating such hesitancy by drawing lottery for vaccinated folks. Like, having this magic, absolutely mind boggling potion that prevents serious illness and death *isn't* already the lottery win of our lifetime?? People in India and elsewhere are dying because of lack of vaccines and here we have educated, first world countries struggle to get their citizens vaccinated. Unfortunately shaming such people will only push them further into antivax territory.

swader999 5y ago
Same with the push for vaccine passports. Really gets my fur up and question why the need for heavy hands.
- azinman2 5y ago
  It's already been the case that various countries require certain vaccines to enter, or other health clearances. These kinds of standards and even more exceptional for animals, and ultra protective for plants. Why is this any different? Why wouldn't you want someone protected from bringing a (newly) preventable disease into your country?
  - skjoldr 5y ago
    Because a passport represents a centralized storage of medical data, and that's always a bad idea.
    - 542458 5y ago
      I don’t think there’s any central storage for ICVPs today. As far as I know the records are just held by whoever normally holds your health records - the WHO trusts centres to only certify responsibly.
    - swader999 5y ago
      And Hippa concerns, this status will likely be resold as well.

pxf 5y ago

5 stars reply! Well Done Linus! :)

The_rationalist 5y ago

I recently learned that one can "durably" (aka for months) alter the expression of it's genes though epigenetic changes. This can be induced by some peptide drugs such as bromantane and is a very interesting biohack/pharmacological mechanism of action.

cronix 5y ago

I wonder if Mr. Torvalds has listened to Robert W. Malone, M.D., M.S., who is the inventor if mRNA vaccines, on his views on this subject. Here's a podcast that he did today with a few others. https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=581 https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=581 His bio: https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us https://www.rwmalonemd.com/about-us

dqpb 5y ago
Isn’t Katalin Karikó the inventor of mRNA vaccines?
- mkw2k 5y ago
  Something's not adding up here
  - aazzz 5y ago
    Seems pretty clear after some legwork. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine Robert Malone was first to the scene developing RNA vaccines, Katalin Karikó "attempted to solve some of the main technical barriers to introducing mRNA into cells" and "solved one of the key technical barriers by using modified nucleosides to get mRNA inside cells without setting off the body's defense system." Because the powers that be ie Media, Academia favor and cover Katalin she may be nominated for the Nobel even. Malone to date goes unacknowledged in most cases just like we've seen so often in so many discoveries. Katalin herself supposedly agreed that she made improvements on the works of others but news stories rarely if ever reveal the "others". Perhaps sooner rather than later, credit and acknowledgements will come.
mohanmca 5y ago
In a interview (few years back), Linus mentioned that he read many books related to Genes and medical science related to that! He supposed to be expert in that domain too!
pjc50 5y ago
Something odd here; he's investing a lot of effort into denying Kariko's role in mRNA and he looks like a very determined self promoter.

DoreenMichele 5y ago

mRNA doesn't change your genetic sequence in any way. It is the exact same intermediate - and temporary - kind of material that your cells generate internally all the time as part of your normal cell processes The m in mRNA stands for messenger. I'm failing to find anything I consider to be a succinct explanation in layman's terms (other than the one in the piece under discussion: all that the mRNA vaccines do is to add a dose their own specialized sequence that then makes your normal cell machinery generate that spike protein so that your body learns how to recognize it.). But from what I gather, mRNA vaccines basically inject your body with a coded recipe for how to manufacture the immune stuff it normally manufactures in reaction to an infection, only without having to first be infected. Not even with a dead version of the virus, as some vaccines use for trying to prompt the body to figure this out more safely than by actually catching the infection. A few sources I looked at, without feeling satisfied with their explanations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messenger_RNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messenger_RNA https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/messenger-rna https://www.genome.gov/genetics-glossary/messenger-rna https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/translation-dna-to-mrna-to-protein-393/ https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/translation-dna-to... Edit: Thank you to everyone supplying a more accurate explanation in layman's terms. Much appreciated.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
Nobody tell these guys about the adenovirus platform, which actually does enter the nucleus [1]. (For the avoidance of doubt, it doesn’t tamper with your DNA.) [1] https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/91604 https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/9160...
refulgentis 5y ago
The mRNA recipe is for a distinctive spike protein on mainstream COVID, your cells unwittingly produce this spike protein, then your immune system says "what's this garbage?" and attacks it.
dqpb 5y ago
> But from what I gather, mRNA vaccines basically inject your body with a coded recipe for how to manufacture the immune stuff That’s not correct. The coded recipe is for covid’s spike proteins. Your body manufactures a bunch of those spike proteins and then has an immune response to them.

mkw2k 5y ago

Here we go

piinbinary 5y ago

The way I like to think about it (not sure how accurate this is) is that mRNA is like a letter sent by your DNA. mRNA vaccines forge your DNA's handwriting and write a letter that looks like it came from your DNA, but didn't.

outworlder 5y ago
And COVID is a printing press for scam letters.

losvedir 5y ago

I'm vaccinated but I think it's hindsight bias to say the mRNA vaccines are obviously safe. We had to wait for clinical trials to show that. There has been a great deal of research and development on the delivery of the mRNA, what kind of molecule to wrap it in, for example. Additionally, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with e.g. the Spanish Flu, the morbidity was not from the flu, per se, but the immune response to it (cytokine storm, which I believe is implicated in Covid somewhat, too). If that's the case, could the proteins coded by the mRNA potentially have kicked off such a response? I know we see that it doesn't, but could it have?

radpl 5y ago
Not really, because your muscle where you got shot was mostly producing spike proteins. When you get the virus, it replicates in your lungs, immunity response happens there and if it’s too strong, it can destroy your lung tissue and cause death.
outworlder 5y ago
> If that's the case, could the proteins coded by the mRNA potentially have kicked off such a response? Why would they? And more specifically, why would they cause lung issues? Because that's the main problem with COVID. The virus like to bind to cells that have a specific receptors, with the vast majority contained in lung tissue. You would expect to see major damage near the injection site if your cytokine storm theory had weight, but not much else. If there is a mechanism that will cause side effects on mRNA vaccines, then such mechanism will also be presented in the virus. Except it's a localized, self-limited amount, as mRNA cannot replicate. Viruses can.
- jfkgktjjj 5y ago
  > If there is a mechanism that will cause side effects on mRNA vaccines, then such mechanism will also be presented in the virus. You're forgetting about the lipids the vaccine mRNA is put into. One big reason it took so long to create mRNA vaccines was finding a suitable lipid mix. They need to have a specific property, they need to be electrically charged in a certain way, and pretty much all lipids with that property are extremely toxic. The equivalent lipids in the virus don't have this problem because they come from the human cell membrane and they use the spike protein to fuse. Since the vaccine doesn't have a spike protein, it needs that special charge property to be able to spill it's mRNA. The question now is, if it took sooo long to find those lipids, just what the safety margin on them is? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433582/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433582/ https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-lipid-shells-mRNA-vaccines/99/i8 https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/drug-delivery/Without-li...

premium-komodo 5y ago

If you think it might be a little inappropriate to care much about a programmer's endorsement of a vaccine, here's an actual famous doctor saying "for God's sake don't take this thing". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBv3A8-ShI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBv3A8-ShI

alexvoda 5y ago
Ok, I'll bite. I was willing to assume he might have some legitimate concern. A quick Google hoever reveals he was a Covid denier from the start. There is plenty of evidence that the pandemic is real. Why should the oppinion about the risk of the cure of someone who denied the risk of of the pandemic, be relevant? How does a credentialed person go off the rails so badly??
- premium-komodo 5y ago
  You're assuming your own hypothesis. In this thread, the "believe the science" people are elevating the opinion of some unqualified celebrity because he has the "correct" opinion, and ignoring/suppressing the opinion of a highly qualified expert because he was the "wrong" opinion.

jasonhansel 5y ago

Finally, a Linus Torvalds rant that seems both justified and proportionate!

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Arguably they usually are. Nvidia comes to mind.

swader999 5y ago

Ivermectin and HCQ sure got shut down hard even though recent studies are giving them some credit. If they had been a valid option, emergency use authorisation wouldn't have been granted. I honestly don't know what to think about all of this. I've seen a lot of censorship and stifling of speech. Reading Fauci's emails also makes me hesitate. I think trust in the experts will really take a hit going forward. I did get the AZ vaccine a few weeks ago. Yesterday I had a flame heme show up on a retina scan at the eye doc. Was it the vax? Perhaps, the Oxford UK study said these kinds of events are slightly more likely from what they've seen.

ceejayoz 5y ago
> Reading Fauci's emails also makes me hesitate. Which ones, specifically? I keep seeing people say this. There are thousands of pages in the PDF and no one seems to be able to quote anything actually concerning.
- swader999 5y ago
  They are all over the web. But clearly if you take them all in, you come away from it with the impression that he really pushed gain of function research and hid the fact once this took off last spring. Most of what he said in hind sight and with these emails seems to be more about politics and less about science and educating the masses. The messaging on masks should have been that only n95 or better are worth the time. One email to a friend pretty much said that.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    > The messaging on masks should have been that only n95 or better are worth the time Which is simply rubbish. Masks of all kinds will prevent transmission albeit with varying levels of efficacy. And most importantly they impact human behaviour in ways which prevent transmission. Not to mention that N95 masks are more expensive which would have reduced its use by people who are poorer and are far more likely to spread the virus i.e. they are more likely to have multiple jobs, travel further for their job, work longer hours etc.

throwawaysea 5y ago

> The half-life of mRNA is a few hours. Any injected mRNA will be all gone from your body in a day or two. Can someone with more knowledge comment on whether this is true for components of the vaccine that aren't just the mRNA bits? I am not sure, but I assume there are various other components that form the delivery vehicle for the vaccine, stabilize it for storage, and so on. What are the actual mechanisms for those to be 'gone from the body'?

lamontcg 5y ago
The lipid nanoparticle is just lipids. Unless you happen to have an allergic reaction to the specific components you should worry a lot more about eating a cheeseburger and what eliminates all those chemicals from your system. The mRNA delivery system is about as close to "nothing" as you can get.
ufo 5y ago
Here's the list of excipients in the Pfizer vaccine: 1. ALC-0312 2. ALC-0159 3. 1,2-Distearoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine 4. cholesterol 5. potassium dihydrogen phosphate 6. sodium chloride 7. disodium hydrogen phosphate dihydrate 8. sucrose 9. water The first four are various lipids, used to build the lipid nanoparticles. The body can get rid of those the same way that it would get rid any other lipid. The remaining excepients are just some salts and sugar. Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/941452/Information_for_healthcare_professionals.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
I think that's kind of irrelevant, since those bits aren't the part that were causing concern. Nobody's worried that the part that stabilizes it for storage is going to "create a new humanoid race". That's purely based on (a misunderstanding of) the mRNA.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  I wasn’t asking out of that same motivation. I was just wondering how true it is that the body gets rid of all the components of the vaccine and simply retains the benefit of antibodies with no “vaccine remnants”.

29athrowaway 5y ago

This is the most appropriate tone you can use to deliver a message to anti-vaxxers, which is the only one they understand. We need more Linuses. I have engaged many anti-vaxxers in different tones, and a polite tone usually does not resonate with them much because "political correctness" is perceived as a lack of authenticity. Profanity and emotion resonates more with them, because that is the way you talk to people you trust.

mnouquet 5y ago

Meanwhile the CDC to meet on rare heart inflammation following COVID vaccines - https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-meet-rare-heart-inflammation-193230829.html https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-meet-rare-heart-inflammation-1932...

ksec 5y ago

Highlight of the reply >But dammit, regardless of where you have gotten your mis-information from, any Linux kernel discussion list isn't going to have your idiotic drivel pass uncontested from me. I dont know why I cant stop laughing.

rangewookie 5y ago

I'm glad Linus stepped in on this one. Unrelated question here - how are people actually consuming mailing lists like this? I always find these links difficult to read and have always assumed there much be some superior format, alternative typefaces for one.

outworlder 5y ago
They are getting messages on their email inbox?
ufo 5y ago
A good Email client can do a good job of displaying the messages, and sorting them into appropriate folders. But if you are not subscribed, then all the web ui's I've seen for mailing lists are painful to use.
smw 5y ago
news.gmame.io isn't a terrible option, if you can find a newsreader.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bikamonki 5y ago

One does not mess with The Linus :)

mnouquet 5y ago
There is no such things as "The Linus". He's just a man.
- bikamonki 5y ago
  One never calls The Linus just a man.
  - mnouquet 5y ago
    Fuck Linus. Outside of the Linux kernel and version control, his opinions isn't worth the electrons used to transmit it.

jeffreyrogers 5y ago

There are a range of anti-vaccine opinions from idiotic (the example Linus quotes) to more reasonable. The way this issue has been handled is emblematic of the way many such political issues are handled: fringe views are promoted and "debunked" while more reasonable views that go against mainstream narratives are ignored. This is amplified by various high profile personalities in the media who shape the views people are presented with, so that all critics of the mainstream narrative appear to be lunatics. Thus stigmatizing anyone who has a more reasonable objection. This is not a new phenomenon but has played out much more frequently over the last year or so. Also, I got the vaccine, so if you interpret this as some sort of veiled anti-vaccine comment you are part of the problem.

berkes 5y ago
Do you have any examples of such 'reasonable views' that are ignored? Because I don't. I do see a lot of reasonable objections making headlines or having a large impact. E.g. side effects halting entire campaigns for weeks, or large articles highlighting the dowsides of various vaccines, debates on particle sizes and fluid dynamics on national TV and so on.
- tim333 5y ago
  That it could make sense for low risk people to wait and see how it goes?
  - bartimus 5y ago
    See how it goes to get infected with the virus? It didn't pass any clinical trial.
    - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
      Pretty good chance you never get infected though (or at least don't get infected for a couple of years when there will be more information). Especially if you live in certain areas.
  - 5y ago

bitL 5y ago

I am eagerly awaiting my vaccine, however we are all alpha/beta testers. A real concern is about safety of those vaccines as typically they require ~3 years of testing and a single fatality aborts their use. Would you give alpha version to people you love? Why is this concern downplayed? I understand statistics but we have no clue what could go wrong in an early version of a new technology and no data on long-term impact. It's all a big experiment.

Romanulus 5y ago
Good point. Also, the deaths involved to these vaccines are much higher than previous runs (think it was swine flu), where vaccinations were halted after 25 or so fatalities. Ultimately, get it if you want it... your helmet doesn't require other people to wear theirs.
symlinkk 5y ago
Exactly. The vaccines did not go through the FDA’s typical approval process, they got emergency approval, but the standard approval process is still ongoing. mRNA vaccines have never been used in a large scale setting outside of clinical trials before. Are they safe? Almost certainly. Do we know that for sure yet? No. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? For me, yes.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- azinman2 5y ago
  But that's not true. They've been used for years with cancer at minimum.
  - symlinkk 5y ago
    Outside of clinical trials? Where did you see that?
    - azinman2 5y ago

walrus01 5y ago

The past year has been very instructive (and slightly scary) in revealing the sheer staggering depths of lack of scientific knowledge, and respect for the scientific process, among a vocal but aggressive small percentage of the population. These people truly have no idea of how much education is involved in getting a doctorate level degree in virology, epidemiology or genetics.

indolering 5y ago

I saw the headline and I thought, "Why do I care what Linus has to say about vaccines? He's just a programmer!" But then I clicked the link and realized that it was a classic Linus rant! As much as I support codes of conduct and Linus curtailing his asshole behavior regarding technical matters, I think there should be a loophole for anti-vaxxers and other nut jobs who don't care that they might transmit a deadly disease to the immunocompromised or children.

adamrezich 5y ago
Linus rants are bad and he shouldn't do them when it comes to the integrity of the thing he's spent his life working on... but when it's about something We Can All Agree With, Right Guys, then they're good? ok lol
baobabKoodaa 5y ago
It's a bit disingenuous of you to state that anti-vax people "don't care". Have you actually engaged with any of them? They probably care a lot more than you and me about this stuff, they've just gone to the wrong conclusions. Also, you generally support Linus curtailing his asshole behavior, but you want to make an exception for anti-vax people? Why? You want them to burrow down harder into their anti-science bunkers? Why? Is that going to make the world a better place somehow? Do _you_ care?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- quenix 5y ago
  I don't think that the point is to convince the insane anti-vaxxer in the mailing list. They are too far gone. Rather, it's to prevent further radicalisation.
  - baobabKoodaa 5y ago
    Radicalization is not a binary feature. Outcasting people who are one foot inside the anti-vax camp can push them into the crazy zone both feet in.

H8crilA 5y ago

Just to clear one thing: Vaccines actually do edit the genetic code, but only of some select B-cells. And so does any other antigen that your body develops antibodies for. The process is very complicated and beautiful, and is pretty much exactly the same as in plenty of other multicellular life forms. If you've ever wondered what's the "storage format" for all the recipes for all the different antibodies that your body produces, that is how does your body even remember infections from years ago - it's DNA, and the recipes are generated via a massively sped up internal evolution, mediated by T cells. The process of maturing B-cells is kind of similar to machine learning. The matured B-cells are then safely stashed away in the bone marrow. Really remarkable stuff. (I understand that Linus meant that the vaccine mRNA is not reverse transcribed into the host DNA, and that is of course the case. Also, a side note: the human genome is littered with viral genetic material accumulated over time, god knows if it's for good or for bad, we're still too dumb to answer such questions)

Rochus 5y ago
> The process is very complicated and beautiful And all the molecular machinery in our body is much more complex than any software system.
- H8crilA 5y ago
  It had a bit more time to develop :) But, I don't think some software systems are far off, particularly if you are a bit more permissive with the boundaries of a "system". I don't know really how to compare such apples to oranges, but the genetic material of a human is just a single gigabyte. Now i know that a gigabyte C++ program is not on par with a gigabyte of DNA, but a terabyte of code? Maybe? We're definitely at the terabytes of code range if you look at the internet as a whole. You can also add the deep ML models, they're easily in the gigabyte ranges. Of course the complexity in the protein-based lifeform comes from the massive parallelism of the code execution (every single cell and every single ribosome!) and the massive amount of noise that the environment constantly throws at the lifeforms. Compare with the nearly pristine conditions that the sets of customized silicone crystals that we call computers operate in. Give me volatility and time, and you'll be stunned, eventually. Let's see what's next in this book :)

insane131 5y ago

I read this headline and immediately asked myself, why don't you create an account and ask these people WTF do we care what Linus thinks about that? Then I read his post. It is actually a well reasoned response to another post on LKML. Now I created an account to say I agree with Linus, understand why post is popular, but I think the headline is a bit "click-baity". Although it did make me create an account.

meibo 5y ago

Why is this not on the frontpage anymore?

dstroot 5y ago

Can't upvote this enough.

fendy3002 5y ago

Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2425/ https://xkcd.com/2425/ I haven't got one since I've had a positive last year. And I was afraid because it's new technology and too fast in delivery. However as time goes I'm not afraid of it anymore and am planning to get one. However my country only provide sinovac or AZ. I prefer pfizer biontech or moderna.

throwaway088 5y ago

Didn't Linus apologize sometime ago for talking like he talked on this list. Personally, I agree with what he says, but I dont like the tone.

cblconfederate 5y ago

Even the term antivaxxer in this case is divisive and kind of presupposes that everyone should be a provaccer. Since we are not going for herd immunity, everyone should assees their own chances before making an informed decision, which in the vast majority of cases will be to vaccinate themselves. But there are specific sideeffects in specific groups that have been documented

H8crilA 5y ago
Uh, we're definitely going for herd immunity. The bar for that is actually quite close to being met in some countries, including the US (if you combine past infections and vaccinated people).
Taniwha 5y ago
I'm old enough that I had measles as a kid, my grandma had polio as a kid wore a leg brace her entire life, rubella and the associated birth defects were a thing in the community - when I was a kid EVERYONE was a pro-vaxxer, they were the medical miracle that were changing people's lives - IMHO the main reason we have antivaxxers today is because we haven't been telling these family stories to our kids Why not go for herd immunity? maybe we should be releasing (suitably tested) live vaccines
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  I should have said there are 2 meanings of antivaxer in this context. One is the kooks who are/were against all vaccines and nother is the people who are suspicious of the covid vaccines. Those groups are separate and must be treated differently Herd immunity in the general population will probably be impossible unless the areas that reach it choose to lock themselves from the rest of the world https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/opinion/herd-immunity-covid-us.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/opinion/herd-immunity-cov...

User23 5y ago

RNA can conceivably alter human DNA? How, you might ask, given that human cells don’t use reverse transcriptase? Because due to ancient viral infections there’s a LINE-1[1] gene that codes for it. So it can’t be ruled out that RNA ends up encoded as DNA. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25478632/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25478632/

kaba0 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27468123 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27468123 My second paragraph.

dh2424 5y ago

This is the best thing I've read today, by far.

gfaure 5y ago

The person who posted the vaccine misinformation had undergone some personal loss for which he blames the medical system. While this doesn't excuse spreading misinformation, it helped me understand where his desire to sow doubt in organised medicine could have come from: https://patientsafetymovement.org/advocacy/patients-and-families/patient-stories/enrico-weigelt/ https://patientsafetymovement.org/advocacy/patients-and-fami...

dxuh 5y ago

"get vaccinated" should probably be heard by that person but it's still really not as easy as in Germany to get vaccinated as it might be in some other countries. I look at the UK/US/Canada (many parts of the EU) like they are on a different planet, because they are slowly going back to normal for months now, while I still can't get vaccinated here, even though I want to since the start of the year. The prioritization of old and sick people has just been lifted 4 days ago and the state I live in says that I still can't get an appointment until the mid of the month. And even then I should not get my hopes up to get an appointment quickly, as the vaccination centers have allocated their supply for second shots for the whole of June. Right now it seems likely that my employer will actually be quicker in getting a vaccine for me than my government. Actually off-topic, but it annoys me pretty much every day and I felt invited to rant by Linus assuming it's just that easy here.

sillysaurusx 5y ago

I was surprised to discover one genuine anti-vax fact: if you're diabetic and you're taking a certain drug, you must be very careful before taking the COVID vaccine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26953326 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26953326 That's not really anti-vax, but an acquaintance died a couple weeks after getting vaccinated due to diabetes complications, and I've always wondered if this was the cause. I don't think I should post this without pointing out that I'm strongly pro-vax, though. It was just surprising.

Taniwha 5y ago
It doesn't say that, it says you should stop taking those drugs if you contract Covid, not if you are vaccinated - these are different things
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  I agree, but the reply to my PSA said otherwise.

nsonha 5y ago

I didn't even think of this before but now that i read this, i'm curious too. So basically Linus say mRNA vaccine does not change your genetic but then he proceed to say that it does exactly that to fight foreign proteins and it's ok because your cell's mRNA do that anyway. Do you see the difference? I guess there is a reason to raise concerns about the novelty of the technique, if this is indeed the first time artificial mRNA is used on the general public.

kaba0 5y ago
> but then he proceed to say that it does exactly that to fight foreign proteins No he doesn’t say that and is not true. mRNAs are “commands”. They encode proteins — each triplet (of nucleotides) on it will translate to one protein building block. They are semi-stable and are actively destroyed in the cell so they can only produce a few protein molecules. So injecting mRNA will give a temporary command to the cells to produce this protein so that the body can learn to defend agains them once they are released from cells.
- nsonha 5y ago
  This is what he said and he could be wrong but I'm not making up anything > that the mRNA vaccines do is to add a dose their own specialized sequence that then makes your normal cell machinery generate that spike protein so that your body learns how to recognize it... your body now knows how to recognize and fight off a new foreign protein So what happens if some faulty proteins are created from this process, any chance they then be used to build new cells and cause disorders? I'm not on the "change genetic" argument anymore as I'm not sure what even defines that, just trying to understand the risks here.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    What Linus writes is accurate, you may have misunderstood him. A dose of mRNA is transported to a few cells, and these cells temporarily gets the command to create spike proteins. These proteins will be transported outside your body and be recognized by the immune system. There is no need to constantly create them as the immune system can learn from this alone. And it is temporary because mRNA is constantly degrading — it is a must otherwise a cell would have no way to stop manufacturing a protein after giving out a command.

aaron695 5y ago

It should have been you are banned / strike one for being off topic. Linux is not about vaccines either way. All this off topic garden shed stuff needs to be shutdown in open source. And normal companies too if they want to prosper.

DoreenMichele 5y ago
I don't know much about Linux, but if you are too quick to say something off topic cannot be discussed at all and even trying to discuss it is a bannable offense, that tends to kill conversation and interfere with getting people to participate, to get along well enough to get things done, etc.

corxi 5y ago

Sure, I will trust doctor Linus with this. And by the way, this email has been penned by a certain Enrico. After needless lockdowns and masks mandates you still think many millions of better educated people than this guy. There’s a shot for you… mine

azangru 5y ago

Ok, while Linus so righteously describes the basic molecular biology of RNA, here are some of the less insane questions that he doesn't address: 1) After an injection of mRNA (inside of lipid nanoparticles, if I understand correctly) into the body, which cells will the mRNA enter? 2) The mRNA will cause the synthesis of the spike protein that will be displayed on the surface of these cells and initiate the immune response. Since the cells expressing the spike protein will be treated as infected by the immune system, will it result in the death of these cells? If so – and depending on the answer to the previous question — is this cell death dangerous at all? 3) Following question 2, what are the chances of the development of an autoimmune response? 4) Why do some vaccine recipients seem to develop thrombotic events? 5) Is there a reason to believe that the spike protein itself has cytotoxic properties? If so, is there a reason to believe that the spike protein expressed by the cells transfected with the mRNA can get detached from their membranes and enter the bloodstream? If yes, is there any danger to that? Edit: I've phrased these questions in the most neutral language of a basic medical immunology textbook, yet, judging by the instant downvotes, I managed to upset someone. I'm not siding with the author of the email to the Linux kernel discussion list; I am merely wondering how much precisely is known about the mechanism of action of mRNA vaccines beyond the basic overview that Linus outlined.

adamrezich 5y ago
at some point you just have to embrace the fact that you're going to get downvoted for writing things like this, and all you can do is trust that a nonzero number of people will see the downvotes-without-replies and that that will give them pause to think
DoreenMichele 5y ago
People have been downvote-happy since, roughly, the beginning of the pandemic. And I saw multiple reddits gain a lot of new members during lock down. I haven't seen numbers for HN, but I assume there has been an influx of new people here as well because, wow, is the Eternal September especially bad of late. You are probably asking questions to which we don't have answers. Someone with medical credentials once told me "You are asking questions they don't have answers for. That's not how medical studies work." and I think people get cranky any time you ask questions the studies aren't designed to answer. For many people, it likely smacks of "You are just being a smartass." and "How dare you make the authorities look dumb!" or something like that. 4) Why do some vaccine recipients seem to develop thrombotic events? My assumption would be that this is related to the fact that the infection itself seems to cause blood clots and my general impression is that what it does to the blood system is a significant issue and a large part of why it is deadly. I am not a medical professional. I'm just a random internet stranger who reads and is making conversation on the internet.

belorn 5y ago

Looking from a intellectual curiosity perspective, I wonder if taking the vaccine/getting sick can have a epigenetic effect.

throw7 5y ago

I hate to be a pedant, but covid-19 is the disease. SARS-CoV-2 is the virus. Sure, "Covid-19 virus" is in the vernacular, but when you're fighting misinformation, it doesn't help to then use misnomers.

mallow 5y ago

Superb reply

User23 5y ago

Why is this anymore relevant than Banksy’s opinion on Rust in the Linux kernel? It’s really annoying how many people think that because they are competent at a limited subset of discrete mathematics that people should care what they think about subjects where they are basically ignorant.

inigojonesguy 5y ago

A good, no nonsense reply! The world is complicated. There are so many people who want the vaccine and can't access it and other people who do have access to the vaccine and don't want it.

phroobster 5y ago

I’ve already been diagnosed with covid and it was fine, a little worse than an average cold. Why should I take a vaccine and risk side effects for a disease with a 99.9% survival rate, when I’m not even bothered by it? Doesn’t make sense to me.

mmmqaq 5y ago
You are the lucky person who only has a little symptom. The vaccine is for stopping the transmission so that the unlucky people won't get and die from COVID. Then the economy and the world can go back to normal.
mmmqaq 5y ago
The probablity of survival from taking the vaccine more than 99.9%, so the benifits of vaccine is larger than the risk.
- phroobster 5y ago
  Even if the risk is minuscule, I just have no incentive to subject myself to additional risk.

ghoward 5y ago

My reply to Linus: https://gavinhoward.com/2021/06/a-letter-to-linus-torvalds/ https://gavinhoward.com/2021/06/a-letter-to-linus-torvalds/ .

grae_QED 5y ago
>it is a bad judgment call to parrot a line about experimental medical treatments You do realize that medical science has been doing vaccines for a while now. Really, there's no reason to think that there are any long term side effects to the covid-19 vaccine. Medical scientists aren't reinventing the wheel with covid-19. They already have blue prints from other corona viruses to work off of. There's nothing experimental going on here.
- ghoward 5y ago
  Uh...mRNA vaccines are experimental. And every vaccine is different. Just because other vaccines are good doesn't mean these are.

senectus1 5y ago

Its strange how relieved I am that he's anti-antivaxxer. Knowing some of the people I look up to in the world are not complete and utter morons is cathartic.

mehta_rohan 5y ago

beast mode on

fastglass 5y ago

if your own body is manufacturing it then how is it foreign material?

DeusExMachina 5y ago

> I think you are in Germany, and COVID-19 numbers are going down. It's spreading a lot less these days, largely because people around you have started getting the vaccine The official position of the government here in The Netherlands is that you can still spread the virus after being vaccinated [1]. If I recall correctly, this has been the official position internationally since the beginning. Also, cases went down sharply during the same period last year in all Europe thanks to the weather and without vaccines. In the UK, which has a much higher vaccination rate than the EU, cases are currently rising. Correlation is not causation. [1] https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/visiting-the-netherlands-from-abroad/mandatory-negative-test-results-and-declaration/mandatory-when-travelling-from-a-high-risk-country https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/visiti...

anti-soyboy 5y ago

WOW now the key picker degree comes with a pharmaceutics commercial major in vaccines. The 2x1 are coming to your neighborhood universities.

dennis_jeeves 5y ago

Anti-vaxer here, AMA about my anti-vax stand. I will only respond to people who are serious. There is a section of the pro-vax crowd that is indeed scratching their head as to why there are some apparently intelligent people that they know are anti-vaxers. IMHO, they deserve an explanation. Hopefully I come across as someone intelligent and sane.

mbergal 5y ago

Yes, this was great explanation, but what about mRNA biodistribution?

Nasreddin_Hodja 5y ago

Don't blame antivaccine fans, they are afraid of blobs just like opensource fans ))

randomNumber7 5y ago

It's so sad that there are so many anti-vaxxers. It's also sad that when they actually need treatment in hospital the society (public health insurance) will still pay for the stupidity . They should at least be charged for it.

hidden-spyder 5y ago

I find it really weird that emails with addresses in them are shared publicly like this. And this is a private conversation.