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Welcome to Libera Chat

1425 points by smitop 5y ago

Thorentis 5y ago
How is this better than Matrix? Freenode had posterity going for it. What does a brand new IRC network in 2021 have to offer than Matrix does not?
- Dobbs 5y ago
  > posterity This is what it has going for it. It is meant to be a drop-in(ish) replacement for freenode. All the same clients, all the same protocols, all the same channels (in theory).
  - cheph 5y ago
    > It is meant to be a drop-in(ish) replacement for freenode A drop in replacement for a place that was run into the ground by the people who now will run the drop in replacement. Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains. If the sarcasm is missed, there is nothing at all funny about this abomination. I would much rather trust Andrew Lee than this bunch.
- prepend 5y ago
  I think protocols are better than systems. Since matrix isn’t an RFC (yet?), I think there’s still value in using an open protocol over a particular system or project. I think an open source project is more scalable and reusable than a proprietary one, but if the goal is long term communication among diverse users, then using a protocol is good.
  - SamWhited 5y ago
    This is one of the big issues with Matrix that doesn't get talked about enough: it's not managed by a real standards body. It was previously run by a company who kept trying to monetize the IP, then it was run by a few people who split off that company (and still kept trying to figure out how to monetize it and pay themselves a wage with it). I'm not against the devs being able to pay themselves, that's great, but the specs themselves shouldn't be run that way. Existing standards bodies have more experience, more legal protections for the users, and are just generally better at developing standards.
    - callahad 5y ago
      > Existing standards bodies [...] are just generally better at developing standards. Speaking in a strictly personal capacity, I don't think that point can be taken for granted. The W3C's missteps with HTML5, and WHATWG's success, is a particularly notable failing of a dedicated standards body. The Rust programming language is also developed and codified outside of a traditional standards organization.
      - SamWhited 5y ago
        That's fair; I don't mean to suggest that all standards bodies are perfect all the time, or that they've never made mistakes :) just that it's better than making up a foundation spinoff from a company that doesn't have any experience and will re-invent the wheel yet again instead of submitting the standard to one of the existing standards bodies.
        joepie91_ 5y ago
        Matrix as a protocol is still in active development. Unlike "low-level" protocols such as HTTP, the Matrix protocol is much closer to end-user experience and so it must be able to move relatively quickly to remain competitive with proprietary systems. This generally does not fit into the process of standards bodies like the IETF very well. There's a reason why eg. the WHATWG exists, basically.
        SamWhited 5y ago
        Sure, it doesn't have to be the IETF, that was just an example. But even they tend to do this well (by eg. spinning off a smaller more agile standards body to keep up with building extensions more rapidly). Also, rapid development has its own set of problems as we've seen with XMPP (where no two clients support the same set of features because new ones are being developed to keep up with various proprietary things all the time). Anyways, point is, don't reinvent the wheel, I'm sure one of the standard bodies could have been a good fit if we needed this at all, but Matrix definitely isn't a good fit for this Freenode replacement and this is one of the reasons why (the other is that Freenode works just fine and the point is that this is a drop in replacement).
  - roblabla 5y ago
    Matrix is an open protocol[0]. It's not managed by the IETF, but it has an open process for submitting changes. See the Spec Change Proposal instructions[1]. [0]: https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/ https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/ [1]: https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/proposals/ https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/proposals/
    - prepend 5y ago
      I read a bit about that and I think it’s positive, but a single company controlling a standard and considering changes is not the same as a protocol.
      - roblabla 5y ago
        https://matrix.org/foundation/ https://matrix.org/foundation/ at the bottom of this page, you'll find the people who are actually in charge with accepting protocol changes (the Spec Core Team). It's true that most are part of New Vector, the for-profit company behind Element and Matrix, but Alexey Rusakov is not as far as I could tell. So there is at least one non-New Vector voice. It honestly feels pretty likely that this is just a maturity thing - as more products are built around Matrix, the Spec Core team will likely become more diverse.
        joepie91_ 5y ago
        As I understand it, there's actually an explicit desire for more non-NV people to become involved with the SCT. There just aren't very many other organizations to fund it yet - SCT members need to eat too.
        Arathorn 5y ago
        The situation here is that when we set up the SCT we deliberately picked a 50/50 mix of core Matrix team and community members. What we didn't anticipate is that the community members then were sufficiently sucked into Matrix that they were prepared to work on it fulltime, and a bunch joined Element as the only viable way to do so. Given the team is functioning pretty well and we're improving Matrix, it feels nuts to penalise people based on who they work for, hence the current blend.
  - rdpintqogeogsaa 5y ago
    To be fair, IRC hasn't had an accurate RFC in decades. https://modern.ircdocs.horse/ https://modern.ircdocs.horse/ is the closest to accurate client<->server protocol documentation, but is fully outside the IETF process.
- delfinom 5y ago
  The ability to google for it and not just end up with 40000000 pages of movie results?
  - viraptor 5y ago
    I checked. "Matrix chat" does not have a single movie reference in the first 3 pages of results. It's really not a problem.
    - Biganon 5y ago
      If your search engine thinks you speak French, you might get results about that scene in the movie with the glitchy cat...
- SamWhited 5y ago
  I'm not really a fan of IRC (a federated network where some OSS projects were on their own servers or different ones would have limited the blast radius of a hostile takeover of one server like this), but Matrix is bloated and slow and the protocol makes no sense for chat (though it may have other applications); it's not a great fit for a large network with lots of people who may or may not have modern hardware. Not to mention that the servers would take a lot more resources to run on Matrix (assuming it eventually gets roughly the same size as Freenode was).
  - est31 5y ago
    The implementations might be bloated (js heavy, etc), and the non bloated implementations written in C++ or Rust or so don't have the full feature set yet, but is it really the protocol to blame? In which way does the protocol make no sense for chat? IRC is extremely complicated as well and a giant pile of hacks.
    - SamWhited 5y ago
      For clients maybe not, but for servers the protocol itself is to blame, yes. A giant distributed graph database where everything has to be synced constantly means you use a ton of memory. IRC is definitely complicated, and arguably a pile of hacks, but an event based system (more or less) makes a lot more sense for chat where you want realtime communication (more or less), not to wait while you sync nodes in the graph to every place that wants them.
      - joepie91_ 5y ago
        This makes no sense. Propagating a bunch of messages doesn't suddenly use a ton of memory just because you're organizing them as a graph rather than a linear pubsub-style stream.
        SamWhited 5y ago
        Sorry, it was a bad explanation. The point is that you have to keep a lot of past state in memory for future messages to make sense and sync properly, unlike an event based system where you (more or less) only need to perform some action when you get an event then forget about it. This is an IRC thread though, sorry I got sucked in but let's not let the Matrix CEO derail it and try to score users. The whole point is is that it didn't make sense for them to switch to matrix because it uses more resources than most IRC servers and because they are trying to be a drop in replacement, not make users sign up for new things.
- phaer 5y ago
  Wasn't there always the the argument of bridges whenever people tried to convince others to switch to Matrix? IMO it doesn't need to be "better", there are different requirements and preferences among users and between Matrix, IRC and Jabber, each of those ecosystems got their own set of issues.
- staz 5y ago
  it easier to change what server you connect to in your client, especially if all the channels you connect to move over, than to adopt a new protocol/client/ etc..
- rockdoe 5y ago
  Talking about Matrix...matrix.org had an IRC bridge to the Freenode network. Is there any up for libera.chat? (The bridge is unreliable, but still very handy to stay connected to old friends)
  - fundamental 5y ago
    I don't think one is setup currently, though based upon some of the IRC channels I'm in it sounds like one is getting actively worked on.
    - jordemort 5y ago
      Hoping there's one soon, the only way I connect to IRC these days is through a Matrix bridge and I don't want to run one myself :)
      - Apotheos 5y ago
        Do you have your own server? How hard was it to set up?
        jordemort 5y ago
        I run my own homeserver. It wasn't too hard to set up but it's fairly resource-intensive. I have it on a big Ryzen and barely notice it but I think it would crush something like a Raspberry Pi (especially if you tried to run it off an SD card)
- rataata_jr 5y ago
  Can you use Matrix from Emacs?
  - mouldysammich 5y ago
    https://github.com/alphapapa/matrix-client.el https://github.com/alphapapa/matrix-client.el there is this
    - medstrom 5y ago
      There is also weechat.el, and weechat has a matrix plugin.
- joepie91_ 5y ago
  I'm a fan of Matrix as a project, but I don't think that "the house is on fire, we must evacuate" is the correct moment to tell people to move to a different messaging protocol and ecosystem entirely. That's a big change for a community.
- ptman 5y ago
  Indeed. IRC is closed federation and the server admins are in a great position of power. In an open federation like email or matrix, the power of server admins is much smaller, and this kind of takeover wouldn't happen. Or if it did happen, it would be less of a problem.
  - immibis 5y ago
    This freenode thing shows they have less power than they think. If they abuse it, it's super-simple for their users to move elsewhere. Every sane client supports connecting to multiple networks at the same time.
threatofrain 5y ago
Related discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207440
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ecmascript 5y ago
Seems like the chat just died, I cannot reconnect anymore. HN hug of love?
- snalty 5y ago
  I think it's all the people jumping ship from freenode rather than HN.
  - ecmascript 5y ago
    Yeah maybe true :)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- staz 5y ago
  https://twitter.com/liberachat/status/1395009986921652233 https://twitter.com/liberachat/status/1395009986921652233 > Hi all. The IRC network is currently experiencing technical difficulties, likely a result of a massive influx of people. We're working on fixing it. all the people migrating from Freenode it seems
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
SamBam 5y ago
I'm interested in the fact that, given all the shadiness about ownership etc with Freenode, there is not a single name of a real person anywhere on the site that I can find. Indeed, there is only a reference to ownership by "a non-profit association in Sweden." I don't know enough about Freenode. Is it normal for the staff of such a project to be secret? (Or, at least, secret if you haven't been following the previous history of Freenode?)
- pmlnr 5y ago
  Yep. No names, no contact, no impressum, but "trust us, we're the good ones" - right. Than act like it.
  - dannyw 5y ago
    That's how the internet worked for decades.
    - pmlnr 5y ago
      Yes. Look where it got us: fb, twitter, reddit, etc taking it all over, because people "trust" them - see ominous zuck quote. Why? Because ordinary people need faces and names. So unless libera is aiming for the oldschool nerds, like us, they need to align with 2021.
      - politician 5y ago
        FB requires true names.
        cblconfederate 5y ago
        FBI can fetch the true names thus nicknames became irrelevant
        pmlnr 5y ago
        That's not the point (edit): the only thing I'm missing from libera is an impressum. Mentioning a nameless swedish nonprofit is actually worse in my eyes, than calling it xyz's server in the basement.
sillysaurusx 5y ago
It might prove foolish to move decades-old communities to something that can’t withstand HN front page, or freenode jumping. (Libera is currently down for many people.) One thing I learned with my own community is that building one on negatives isn’t sustainable. Think about it: all of the big communities had a positive purpose for being created. They stood for something. What does Libera stand for? Mission statement is crucial, and it seems to be absent here.
- jacob019 5y ago
  I don't think that's fair. Give them a chance to scale up the new service.
- junon 5y ago
  Goodness, they set this up in record time. Cut them some slack. Even #help states in the topic to allow the dust to settle a bit.
- dannyw 5y ago
  Libera is just the new freenode. You probably wouldn't blink an eye at it.
aw4y 5y ago
amazing how it's called "libera" (free as in freedom) and you cannot connect if on VPN -.-
- mrweasel 5y ago
  Well, that not really true is it. I'm on a VPN and it works fine. They also write that they're working on being available on TOR. Perhaps it's your VPN provider?
  - aw4y 5y ago
    it's ProtonVPN, paid version. weird, uh?
    - nso 5y ago
      It looks like the DNS is still propagating through the internet, and from some servers it does not resolve yet. Also it looks like they are just generally down a lot right now.
travisgriggs 5y ago
Honest/weird question. This is (at least) time number two, that OSS projects have used the "Libre/Libera" term in community reboot/rebrand efforts. Nothing against speakers of French which have given us so many beautiful words, but there is something off putting about libre/libera for me in "brand names". I like what they stand for even! They just don't roll off the tongue for me. Is this just a "me thing"? Maybe there's something inherit about the actual phonetics that makes it off putting for me?
- jeltz 5y ago
  Where are you from? I am Swedish and I feel these names work just fine both in Swedish and in English.
  - travisgriggs 5y ago
    Amurhica. :) However, I do speak Norwegian (and can limp med Svenska). Even if I tenk på det på Norsk, det fremdeles er samme :D. GratisNet would have been kult I guess. Or ÅpneNet.
    - mrweasel 5y ago
      GratisDNS in Denmark is weird enough, let’s not go that route. ÅpneNet, now that is something I want.
  - galgalesh 5y ago
    Works fine in Dutch too, imo.
  - toxik 5y ago
    I've already misspelled it is libra a couple of times.
    - harikb 5y ago
      Don't forget Libra coin/currency that was going to solve all the worlds problems :P
dom96 5y ago
I'm curious why Freenode staffers aren't instead moving to OFTC (https://www.oftc.net/ https://www.oftc.net/). Seems like a well structured network with a lot of history.
- rockdoe 5y ago
  For one the policies are quite different: non-open source channels need to be secret. This isn't a requirement on freenode.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
natural219 5y ago
If you’re going to switch a bunch of servers anyway, why not start over by partnering with someone like Matrix.org? Dead simple to create an IRC<->matrix bridge for people who just love the old protocol, and decentralization efforts always have strength in numbers.
- metroholografix 5y ago
  A lot of people find Matrix completely unpalatable. Why would they support it in this way? IRC works and has worked for decades. Its minimal, text-only, no bs, no distractions nature is its greatest asset. Client support, programmability, and ease of integration too. The folks that like Matrix are already using it. The folks that have stuck with IRC for decades will not abandon it for a protocol they deem to be inferior.
  - natural219 5y ago
    Trust me, I get that; the main argument is that, in protocol wars, there's strength in numbers; IRC is a waning protocol, Matrix is a waxing protocol. I'm not saying people must change what's working for them already; my only case is that _if_ what _was_ working for you is now broken (the freenode network), you have a new opportunity to re-evaluate your position. That's all. You don't even have to go "all in" on all the fancy new Matrix stuff; just write a wrapper to comply with being a "homeserver", and continue using the IRC API with no changes. If not, that's also fine, I'm not that invested in this personally.
  - anticensor 5y ago
    The opposition might be due to the fact that Matrix is persistent, IRC is ephemeral.
- tristan957 5y ago
  The Matrix-IRC bridge is absolutely horrible and leads to terrible experiences for Matrix users and IRC users.
  - natural219 5y ago
duxup 5y ago
Yeah so Freenode went wrong and they created this. Why wouldn't this go the way of Freenode? Who is in charge? How do we even know this already isn't the same as Freenode? I know addressing a messy past on a new site is no fun / I saw the other articles on HN, but ... they should still address who is running the show and some level of assurances (as much as you can in text on the internet) that this is a good place.
- ilaksh 5y ago
  They did address the ownership. It's a non-profit. The people running the show are associated with many of the greatest open source projects. Projects where literal geniuses have donated thousands of hours to make software and services available to you and I free of charge. You know how Discord now has a channel for every game or new service that comes out? Freenode IRC has always been like that, except for core and interesting FOSS systems. For example, actual Linux maintainers might be in a #linux channel, and the guy who invented the Nim programming language would hang out in #nim. The people running the show are those people and friends of those people. The guy who was f'ing with it was just some greedy guy who got control of the domain name and lied and said he wouldn't interfere with the non-profit activities. But then he started advertising lame services on the home page and messing with the networking etc. So they fixed it by getting a new domain. Because they are problem solvers.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    Is this satire?
    - ilaksh 5y ago
      What on earth makes you think that?
      - Lammy 5y ago
        We have the best geniuses — the best! My father — great man; very smart; raised me well — my father told me computers are the most important. We do the software, and we do the best software, and we're WINNING!
Lammy 5y ago
It's worrisome to me that one of the stated objections I've seen to Freenode's new owner is related to his personal politics: https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461 https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461 My own personal politics are probably very very similar to the above author who was complaining about the new owner being "Trumpian", but what will happen if/when we disagreed about something? Would I get the boot from Libera? I totally don't care about Orange Man's fans enough to leave a network over it. e: You gotta appreciate the irony of which group is censoring me right here with downvote-as-disagree :)
- notRobot 5y ago
  IDK man, it's not just politics. Trump supporters also often seem to be misogynistic/bigoted/racist. Are those the kinds of people you want being in charge of online communities? That person is completely within their rights to not want to work for someone like that.
  - coldpie 5y ago
    I agree with you, although it would be nice if there were some real sources instead of just a pile of invective.
    - notRobot 5y ago
      I'm not sure what you want sources for? Trump being racist? Here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/FragileWhiteRedditor/comments/ecajmz/does_this_count/fbazhe8/?context=1 https://www.reddit.com/r/FragileWhiteRedditor/comments/ecajm... So people who support him are also probably racist, or at least okay with him being racist.
      - Lammy 5y ago
        Personally I don't think racism is a binary. Trying to bucket people into racist and not-racist seems like an overly-simplistic way to look at humans.
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
Freenode has been a positively awesome and welcoming group of communities. Was particularly pleased with the security enhancements over time compared to most IRC networks Looking forward to joining Libera Chat.
varispeed 5y ago
Do we know why there has been no update to IRC protocol to ensure end to end encryption? I understand that doing e2e for public chats is extremely complex - so these could remain public, but private messages could easily be encrypted.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  It's a huge pain in Matrix with even a small amount of users in a chat. At least for me, I've never used IRC where I cared about e2e. There are other services for that, including just encrypting with the other party's public pgp key.
- kdragon 5y ago
  I think group e2ee is overblown and self-defeating in principle. Good luck auditing a ratcheting e2ee algo. Plus it breaks often, and group encryption is defeated by any user in the chat. Direct e2ee is far simpler and can be expanded to small groups without the need for complex ratcheting trees. Anything larger and you may as well fall-back to client-server with e2e communications.
- progval 5y ago
  There is OTR: https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/ https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/ but as far as I know there is only one implementation, and it's underdocumented. The protocol itself seems well specified, but it doesn't use "standard" primitives https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/Protocol-v3-4.1.1.html https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/Protocol-v3-4.1.1.html And UIs are usually not great (you have to check a shared secret via a trusted channel). There are also talks of an OTRv4, shared by XMPP and IRC: https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-ideas/issues/67 https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-ideas/issues/67 but the protocol is even more complex, I even have a hard time following the introductory sections of its specification.
techrat 5y ago
https://www.kline.sh/ https://www.kline.sh/ Statement from the ex-Freenode Staff is now official.
nednar 5y ago
What is the purpose of this?
joecool1029 5y ago
I think this actually happened before with Freenode staff breaking off into another network. Around 2006 staff got pissed at lilo (I forget the exact reasons) and started the Atheme network. Later that year lilo was run over and killed. After this staff returned and Atheme became the testing grounds for their new services and is today what Freenode runs as their services suite.
- kragen 5y ago
  This is different; this is a hostile takeover.
  - joecool1029 5y ago
    That's a matter of perspective. Lilo's dead so it's not like we'll hear his side of the story. For other examples of forks which may or may not be considered hostile by some, see the ffmpeg/libav split from some years back (that just like Freenode, eventually reconverged).
    - Arnavion 5y ago
      ffmpeg and libav didn't "eventually reconverge." ffmpeg was always copying anything new that libav added when it made sense, and libav was eventually abandoned.
  - ryanlol 5y ago
    Is it though? It seems that this was all initiated by freenode staff trying to walk back on the deal Christel made with rasengan, forcing his hand.
    - kragen 5y ago
      Christel was selling something she didn't own.
      - ryanlol 5y ago
orliesaurus 5y ago
Well I joined so I guess I might see you on #libera, #stripe or ##orliesaurus
jokoon 5y ago
Not enough users
superkuh 5y ago
First a pandemic and now my online home of the last 20 years being torn apart. This is really upsetting. The people of freenode are something special. I really hope the community can manage the switch without loosing too much of everything. Already the channel registration on libera is throwing established communities into chaos. I really hate that corporate shell game bullshit and attempts at monetization are being made by a dude that professes to love IRC. I wish andrew could acknowledge the hurt he is causing but it seems like saving face matters more to him at this point.
- drenvuk 5y ago
  it will settle. Just keep trying, we'll get back together.
- ilaksh 5y ago
  If he has caused that much of a problem, then just move on. Block him, stop mentioning him by name, and forget about it. For the open source community, he no longer exists. I mean I feel like changing the domain name is less of a problem than the one all of the 4000 people named Andrew Lee who are not that guy now have. It's a lot harder to change a legal name. So they will have to live with his bad reputation potentially rubbing off on them. But luckily online most people use aliases so that should mitigate it somewhat. Libera.chat is a more modern name anyway.
  - unixhero 5y ago
    Hosting an irc Network is more work than you might think. Just a new domain name and a VPS with a service running on it might not be enough.
    - a1369209993 5y ago
      Supposedly[0] all the servers and other network infrastructure are intact, and it's solely the domain names (freenode.{org,net,com}) that were compromised. Grain of salt, obviously, but they have at least claimed there isn't a problem there. 0: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409 https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af4...
Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) "In 2021, Lee took control of freenode, making some staff resign and move to Libera.chat." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libera.chat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libera.chat Freenode's wikipedia entry also has been updated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenode Not sure how I feel about those lightning fast Wikipedia changes.
- mst 5y ago
  Mr. Lee annoyed some wikipedia editors in the process of screwing up freenode. This has consequences.
- Lammy 5y ago
  "making" lol
WaitWaitWha 5y ago
The network policies, and Guidelines, recommendations and best practices are already fraught with subjectivity and the unsolvable dichotomy of carrier v publisher (at least in the USA).
- Lammy 5y ago
  "While we believe in the concept of freedom of thought and freedom of expression, Libera.Chat does not operate on the basis of absolute freedom of speech". Ah I see: https://libera.chat/policies https://libera.chat/policies I would feel way more confident if they defined all the terms used in this document e.g. "various forms of antisocial behaviour are forbidden", "discrimination", "any other behaviour meant to deliberately put upon a person harassment, alarm or distress". The vagueness is rather alarming and distressing to me.
  - deadbunny 5y ago
    The problem with extremely well defined limits is that those who choose to be assholes will ride up to that line and push it constantly. Then use the defense "the rules don't say I can't call you a butthead", so the rules get updated then they push some more and the cycle repeats. With fuzzier boundaries if someone is being an ass you can kick them the first time. This does of course mean you need a decent set of moderators and an appeals process to prevent people power tripping.
    - Lammy 5y ago
      In my experience those kind of clauses are more often used to silence wrongthink than to rid communities of people who are truly disruptive. You can count me out. The chilling effect is real.
donatj 5y ago
Trying to register with NickServ with my gmail, which is by far my primary email address. > Sorry, we do not accept registrations with email addresses from that domain. Use another address. That's going to limit adoption.
- sapphire_tomb 5y ago
  Weird. It let me use my Gmail address.
- tych0 5y ago
  You might try it again later; my coworkers and I have been having problems registering all morning.
- progval 5y ago
  They are overloaded with registrations; they might have blocked gmail temporarily because gmail's spam filter.
- donatj 5y ago
  FWIW I got in shortly after I posted this by capitalizing the G in Gmail.com
- marcan_42 5y ago
  This might have been a temporary antispam measure. They were having some issues.
- lobocinza 5y ago
  Nothing to do with Gmail, just overload. Try again later. I had the same problem this morning but succeed to register a few minutes later.
dt3ft 5y ago
He acquired a site I built which I used to operate on user donations. Today the site no longer exists.
eatbitseveryday 5y ago
The word "Libera" definitely initially speaks like "Liberia" the West African country. I wonder if one would mistakenly think this was African chat.
spike021 5y ago
It's too bad they couldn't export the nick db from Freenode and do some kind of auth to allow people to keep their identities.
- harikb 5y ago
  Yeah, this is the biggest issue I see. I am guessing at least a few will lose their well-known-ids to someone else.
- tannhauser23 5y ago
  The owner of Freenode might have a problem with that.
- Biganon 5y ago
  And in addition to nicks, all the channels and who is their Founder (at least), or even all users with special roles
dang 5y ago
Looks like the relevant previous threads are: Leaving Freenode for a new network - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207440 - May 2021 (253 comments) Freenode resignation is official, not a draft - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27205926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27205926 - May 2021 (10 comments) The Freenode resignation FAQ, or: “what the fuck is going on?” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27169301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27169301 - May 2021 (8 comments) I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153338 - May 2021 (262 comments)
- tootie 5y ago
  Aside from not really knowing what Freenode is/was (a bunch of IRC servers?) none of that really makes clear what Andrew Lee is actually doing that is so objectionable.
  - 0xbadcafebee 5y ago
    "Asserting control." Basically the old admins are having a conniption fit because they don't get to do whatever they want.
  - gpvos 5y ago
    Putting adverts on the website, apparently. Some projects just fiercely want to stay noncommercial, so they will object at this. I am reminded of a comment from the time when Wikipedia was trying to figure out how to cover their costs: The bigger danger isn't advertisers manipulating content, but that people will no longer see Wikipedia as theirs, they will see it as yet another place that corporations bombard them with adverts. — Sid http://gondwanaland.com/mlog/2007/01/02/wikipedia-advertising/#comment-70489 http://gondwanaland.com/mlog/2007/01/02/wikipedia-advertisin...
    - fairity 5y ago
      > Putting adverts on the website, apparently. Where is this motive made apparent?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
wchar_t 5y ago
I suppose that Freenode will survive the mass exodus going on right now, but will become something akin to the Sourceforge of IRC afterwards.
- Avamander 5y ago
  Sourceforge has tried hard to get rid of that reputation under new management.
  - wearywanderer 5y ago
    I'm afraid they may as well try to bail the Titanic. That ship has already sunk.
    - IshKebab 5y ago
      I dunno I think it is doable. They still have a fairly well known name and a fair number of projects are still there (somehow). Their real problem is the actual website UI sucks. I don't think they've changed it for about a decade. If I were them I'd take something like Gogs and rebuild the site based on that.
      - bawolff 5y ago
        Their real problem is that github exists now
      - badsectoracula 5y ago
        Gogs (and Github, Gitlab, etc) are different than Sourceforge though, SF's project pages are targeted towards users of the software, whereas Github/Gogs/etc are targeted towards developers. Now obviously when you have developers make that choice you get them show a preference towards developer-targeted services, but at the end of the day they are not the same. Notice how in a typical Sourceforge page you get the name of the project right at the front with big letters, right below it a rating by its users, how popular it is and when it was last updated (though that date is misleading because it tracks all the project data and not releases) as the most important bits, with a big fat green DOWNLOAD button next to those and buttons to be notified for updates and sharing the software with others? Then the information panel below these describe the software, what features it has, etc followed by screenshots, category information, license, etc and then comments/reviews by users. This panel is just one tab with others being the files for users to download, reviews, support, forums, etc. The code, where you can see the repository, is at the last tab. This is a design very strongly targeted towards users, unlike Github/etc that right in the front page of a project show the repository and rely on Readmes to show any information. Some projects even use Github (or Gitlab or whatever similar tool/service) for the repository while keeping other functionality, like downloads, mailing lists (that AFAIK no other similar service offers, btw) in Sourceforge. That is not to say that Sourceforge's UI doesn't need a bit of a cleanup, but replacing it with something like Gogs (or anything Github-like) isn't going to work since Sourceforge's UI has a different target and goal.
p1mrx 5y ago
The logo reminds me of a DOS game called Aldo's Adventure: https://youtu.be/Ik2N4opZynQ?t=200 https://youtu.be/Ik2N4opZynQ?t=200 I guess it's mainly due to the EGA-like magenta/blue/white color scheme.
dddw 5y ago
Anyone noticed their twitter handle @liberachat is tempbanned?
globular-toast 5y ago
I suspect IRC will always have a place in my heart, but it doesn't seem to be what it once was. Is there some hip new place where people hang out to discuss and help with stuff like JS frameworks and the like? I don't necessarily want to go there, but I'd like to know where it is.
EamonnMR 5y ago
While we're talking about IRC/former freenode, what where your favorite freenode channels?
EamonnMR 5y ago
While we're all switching to Libera chat, anyone have good recommendations for general channels they follow besides project channels? (the Lubuntu and Ubuntu channels where very helpful when I needed them!)
- capableweb 5y ago
  Examples: /msg alis LIST *linux* /msg alis LIST *clojure* /msg alis LIST *art* Up to you really, tooling is there for you to explore :)
z3t4 5y ago
I don't know if this is legit or not, but a Swedish non profit is pretty awesome, it means that anyone can be a member as long as they pay a yearly symbolic member fee. Everything is owned by the members and is fully democratic, where each member has equal voting power, where members usually select a board, and the board makes the daily decisions. When it comes to taxes, etc, non-profits pretty much don't pay any taxes, yet can make millions in profit - as long as you spend that money in ways that benefits the members.
- nexuist 5y ago
  Is this something anyone can do, or do you need someone to be a Swedish citizen first?
  - emj 5y ago
    I don't know but the according to the forms for registration you seem to need a Swedish identification number for the CEO of the non-profit. The same is true when you want to change the members of the governing council. These are hard to get a hold of if you do not live here. You also need to be based in some part of Sweden, and there is a fee associated with moving HQ to a different region in Sweden. These organizations can be insanely complicated in their nature and are allowed to own and operate very large companies (some of the largest in Sweden are owned this way). Changing governing council: https://bolagsverket.se/polopoly_fs/1.279!/Menu/general/column-content/pdfFile/915.pdf https://bolagsverket.se/polopoly_fs/1.279!/Menu/general/colu... registring a new non-profit. https://www.skatteverket.se/foretag/etjansterochblanketter/blanketterbroschyrer/blanketter/info/8400.4.39f16f103821c58f680007104.html https://www.skatteverket.se/foretag/etjansterochblanketter/b...
- dijit 5y ago
  The way you put this it sounds as if it would be easy to take over a non-profit. Just send people in with token amounts of money and vote on things that benefit your company.
  - jlokier 5y ago
aasasd 5y ago
> When freenode announced that it was joining with Private Internet Access, staff were uncertain but assured that PIA was to have no operational influence I mean, promises like that sound like obvious bullshit to me. ‘EA promises that Codemasters will continue to operate on their own like they did’. Yeah sure buds, who are you taking me for. Unless the company is a cash cow startup, why would anyone buy it with other aims than to try making it bring a bit more profit than the previous owners could manage? (Buying the team/the technology is pretty much the same, as it means the workings of the business will be thrown away.)
- shp0ngle 5y ago
  Private Internet Access commented on Twitter that they have nothing to do with this actually. They used to be in the same portfolio of companies (of this mr. Lee), they are not anymore.
senbarryobama 5y ago
Most hobbies I'm into (3d printing/pen plotting) have moved to Discord.
senbarryobama 5y ago
Interesting, but most hobbies I'm into (pen plotting/3d printing) have moved to Discord.
NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
tl;dr: Ideologically everyone needs to do a s/freenode/libera.chat/g
ashneo76 5y ago
I am so excited about Libera.chat. I am excited to go on the next step of the journey with all of you!
mech422 5y ago
The part I don't get is there was the same drama when freenode was founded... The org structure (wasn't it a non-profit at one point?), the donation drives, etc. There was a lot of "much larger irc networks don't need all this", "its a cash grab", etc. Now, it seems to have fallen victim to the very issues the organization was supposed to prevent ?
- chx 5y ago
  There was a nonprofit, but it was dissolved in 2013. https://web.archive.org/web/20130423011409/http://blog.freenode.net:80/2013/03/bye-bye-pdpc/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130423011409/http://blog.freen...
  - mech422 5y ago
    Interesting...I wasn't even aware they had moved to the UK. It does seem anything more then 10 years old now is forgotten as 'ancient history' :-P The whole purpose of the original freenode organization seems to have been lost in the mists. Or maybe I'm just getting old and poetic :-P
jhatemyjob 5y ago
RIP freenode. This is never gonna take off. Terrible name. I have zero temptation to type `libera.chat` into my IRC client. I feel like I got chlamydia from typing that just now.
chx 5y ago
christel deleted her twitter. Google shows it as protected https://i.imgur.com/dVNMqZ2.png https://i.imgur.com/dVNMqZ2.png but it's gone.
mlang23 5y ago
RIP lilo
kevwil 5y ago
I just realized it's been years since I logged in to freenode. What have I become?
population293 5y ago
I wish the registration was done through public key rather than email

1425 points by smitop 5y ago

How is this better than Matrix? Freenode had posterity going for it. What does a brand new IRC network in 2021 have to offer than Matrix does not?

Dobbs 5y ago
> posterity This is what it has going for it. It is meant to be a drop-in(ish) replacement for freenode. All the same clients, all the same protocols, all the same channels (in theory).
- cheph 5y ago
  > It is meant to be a drop-in(ish) replacement for freenode A drop in replacement for a place that was run into the ground by the people who now will run the drop in replacement. Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains. If the sarcasm is missed, there is nothing at all funny about this abomination. I would much rather trust Andrew Lee than this bunch.
prepend 5y ago
I think protocols are better than systems. Since matrix isn’t an RFC (yet?), I think there’s still value in using an open protocol over a particular system or project. I think an open source project is more scalable and reusable than a proprietary one, but if the goal is long term communication among diverse users, then using a protocol is good.
- SamWhited 5y ago
  This is one of the big issues with Matrix that doesn't get talked about enough: it's not managed by a real standards body. It was previously run by a company who kept trying to monetize the IP, then it was run by a few people who split off that company (and still kept trying to figure out how to monetize it and pay themselves a wage with it). I'm not against the devs being able to pay themselves, that's great, but the specs themselves shouldn't be run that way. Existing standards bodies have more experience, more legal protections for the users, and are just generally better at developing standards.
  - callahad 5y ago
    > Existing standards bodies [...] are just generally better at developing standards. Speaking in a strictly personal capacity, I don't think that point can be taken for granted. The W3C's missteps with HTML5, and WHATWG's success, is a particularly notable failing of a dedicated standards body. The Rust programming language is also developed and codified outside of a traditional standards organization.
    - SamWhited 5y ago
      That's fair; I don't mean to suggest that all standards bodies are perfect all the time, or that they've never made mistakes :) just that it's better than making up a foundation spinoff from a company that doesn't have any experience and will re-invent the wheel yet again instead of submitting the standard to one of the existing standards bodies.
      - joepie91_ 5y ago
        Matrix as a protocol is still in active development. Unlike "low-level" protocols such as HTTP, the Matrix protocol is much closer to end-user experience and so it must be able to move relatively quickly to remain competitive with proprietary systems. This generally does not fit into the process of standards bodies like the IETF very well. There's a reason why eg. the WHATWG exists, basically.
        SamWhited 5y ago
        Sure, it doesn't have to be the IETF, that was just an example. But even they tend to do this well (by eg. spinning off a smaller more agile standards body to keep up with building extensions more rapidly). Also, rapid development has its own set of problems as we've seen with XMPP (where no two clients support the same set of features because new ones are being developed to keep up with various proprietary things all the time). Anyways, point is, don't reinvent the wheel, I'm sure one of the standard bodies could have been a good fit if we needed this at all, but Matrix definitely isn't a good fit for this Freenode replacement and this is one of the reasons why (the other is that Freenode works just fine and the point is that this is a drop in replacement).
- roblabla 5y ago
  Matrix is an open protocol[0]. It's not managed by the IETF, but it has an open process for submitting changes. See the Spec Change Proposal instructions[1]. [0]: https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/ https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/ [1]: https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/proposals/ https://spec.matrix.org/unstable/proposals/
  - prepend 5y ago
    I read a bit about that and I think it’s positive, but a single company controlling a standard and considering changes is not the same as a protocol.
    - roblabla 5y ago
      https://matrix.org/foundation/ https://matrix.org/foundation/ at the bottom of this page, you'll find the people who are actually in charge with accepting protocol changes (the Spec Core Team). It's true that most are part of New Vector, the for-profit company behind Element and Matrix, but Alexey Rusakov is not as far as I could tell. So there is at least one non-New Vector voice. It honestly feels pretty likely that this is just a maturity thing - as more products are built around Matrix, the Spec Core team will likely become more diverse.
      - joepie91_ 5y ago
        As I understand it, there's actually an explicit desire for more non-NV people to become involved with the SCT. There just aren't very many other organizations to fund it yet - SCT members need to eat too.
        Arathorn 5y ago
        The situation here is that when we set up the SCT we deliberately picked a 50/50 mix of core Matrix team and community members. What we didn't anticipate is that the community members then were sufficiently sucked into Matrix that they were prepared to work on it fulltime, and a bunch joined Element as the only viable way to do so. Given the team is functioning pretty well and we're improving Matrix, it feels nuts to penalise people based on who they work for, hence the current blend.
- rdpintqogeogsaa 5y ago
  To be fair, IRC hasn't had an accurate RFC in decades. https://modern.ircdocs.horse/ https://modern.ircdocs.horse/ is the closest to accurate client<->server protocol documentation, but is fully outside the IETF process.
delfinom 5y ago
The ability to google for it and not just end up with 40000000 pages of movie results?
- viraptor 5y ago
  I checked. "Matrix chat" does not have a single movie reference in the first 3 pages of results. It's really not a problem.
  - Biganon 5y ago
    If your search engine thinks you speak French, you might get results about that scene in the movie with the glitchy cat...
SamWhited 5y ago
I'm not really a fan of IRC (a federated network where some OSS projects were on their own servers or different ones would have limited the blast radius of a hostile takeover of one server like this), but Matrix is bloated and slow and the protocol makes no sense for chat (though it may have other applications); it's not a great fit for a large network with lots of people who may or may not have modern hardware. Not to mention that the servers would take a lot more resources to run on Matrix (assuming it eventually gets roughly the same size as Freenode was).
- est31 5y ago
  The implementations might be bloated (js heavy, etc), and the non bloated implementations written in C++ or Rust or so don't have the full feature set yet, but is it really the protocol to blame? In which way does the protocol make no sense for chat? IRC is extremely complicated as well and a giant pile of hacks.
  - SamWhited 5y ago
    For clients maybe not, but for servers the protocol itself is to blame, yes. A giant distributed graph database where everything has to be synced constantly means you use a ton of memory. IRC is definitely complicated, and arguably a pile of hacks, but an event based system (more or less) makes a lot more sense for chat where you want realtime communication (more or less), not to wait while you sync nodes in the graph to every place that wants them.
    - joepie91_ 5y ago
      This makes no sense. Propagating a bunch of messages doesn't suddenly use a ton of memory just because you're organizing them as a graph rather than a linear pubsub-style stream.
      - SamWhited 5y ago
        Sorry, it was a bad explanation. The point is that you have to keep a lot of past state in memory for future messages to make sense and sync properly, unlike an event based system where you (more or less) only need to perform some action when you get an event then forget about it. This is an IRC thread though, sorry I got sucked in but let's not let the Matrix CEO derail it and try to score users. The whole point is is that it didn't make sense for them to switch to matrix because it uses more resources than most IRC servers and because they are trying to be a drop in replacement, not make users sign up for new things.
phaer 5y ago
Wasn't there always the the argument of bridges whenever people tried to convince others to switch to Matrix? IMO it doesn't need to be "better", there are different requirements and preferences among users and between Matrix, IRC and Jabber, each of those ecosystems got their own set of issues.
staz 5y ago
it easier to change what server you connect to in your client, especially if all the channels you connect to move over, than to adopt a new protocol/client/ etc..
rockdoe 5y ago
Talking about Matrix...matrix.org had an IRC bridge to the Freenode network. Is there any up for libera.chat? (The bridge is unreliable, but still very handy to stay connected to old friends)
- fundamental 5y ago
  I don't think one is setup currently, though based upon some of the IRC channels I'm in it sounds like one is getting actively worked on.
  - jordemort 5y ago
    Hoping there's one soon, the only way I connect to IRC these days is through a Matrix bridge and I don't want to run one myself :)
    - Apotheos 5y ago
      Do you have your own server? How hard was it to set up?
      - jordemort 5y ago
        I run my own homeserver. It wasn't too hard to set up but it's fairly resource-intensive. I have it on a big Ryzen and barely notice it but I think it would crush something like a Raspberry Pi (especially if you tried to run it off an SD card)
rataata_jr 5y ago
Can you use Matrix from Emacs?
- mouldysammich 5y ago
  https://github.com/alphapapa/matrix-client.el https://github.com/alphapapa/matrix-client.el there is this
  - medstrom 5y ago
    There is also weechat.el, and weechat has a matrix plugin.
joepie91_ 5y ago
I'm a fan of Matrix as a project, but I don't think that "the house is on fire, we must evacuate" is the correct moment to tell people to move to a different messaging protocol and ecosystem entirely. That's a big change for a community.
ptman 5y ago
Indeed. IRC is closed federation and the server admins are in a great position of power. In an open federation like email or matrix, the power of server admins is much smaller, and this kind of takeover wouldn't happen. Or if it did happen, it would be less of a problem.
- immibis 5y ago
  This freenode thing shows they have less power than they think. If they abuse it, it's super-simple for their users to move elsewhere. Every sane client supports connecting to multiple networks at the same time.

threatofrain 5y ago

Related discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207440

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ecmascript 5y ago

Seems like the chat just died, I cannot reconnect anymore. HN hug of love?

snalty 5y ago
I think it's all the people jumping ship from freenode rather than HN.
- ecmascript 5y ago
  Yeah maybe true :)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
staz 5y ago
https://twitter.com/liberachat/status/1395009986921652233 https://twitter.com/liberachat/status/1395009986921652233 > Hi all. The IRC network is currently experiencing technical difficulties, likely a result of a massive influx of people. We're working on fixing it. all the people migrating from Freenode it seems
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

SamBam 5y ago

I'm interested in the fact that, given all the shadiness about ownership etc with Freenode, there is not a single name of a real person anywhere on the site that I can find. Indeed, there is only a reference to ownership by "a non-profit association in Sweden." I don't know enough about Freenode. Is it normal for the staff of such a project to be secret? (Or, at least, secret if you haven't been following the previous history of Freenode?)

pmlnr 5y ago
Yep. No names, no contact, no impressum, but "trust us, we're the good ones" - right. Than act like it.
- dannyw 5y ago
  That's how the internet worked for decades.
  - pmlnr 5y ago
    Yes. Look where it got us: fb, twitter, reddit, etc taking it all over, because people "trust" them - see ominous zuck quote. Why? Because ordinary people need faces and names. So unless libera is aiming for the oldschool nerds, like us, they need to align with 2021.
    - politician 5y ago
      FB requires true names.
      - cblconfederate 5y ago
        FBI can fetch the true names thus nicknames became irrelevant
      - pmlnr 5y ago
        That's not the point (edit): the only thing I'm missing from libera is an impressum. Mentioning a nameless swedish nonprofit is actually worse in my eyes, than calling it xyz's server in the basement.

sillysaurusx 5y ago

It might prove foolish to move decades-old communities to something that can’t withstand HN front page, or freenode jumping. (Libera is currently down for many people.) One thing I learned with my own community is that building one on negatives isn’t sustainable. Think about it: all of the big communities had a positive purpose for being created. They stood for something. What does Libera stand for? Mission statement is crucial, and it seems to be absent here.

jacob019 5y ago
I don't think that's fair. Give them a chance to scale up the new service.
junon 5y ago
Goodness, they set this up in record time. Cut them some slack. Even #help states in the topic to allow the dust to settle a bit.
dannyw 5y ago
Libera is just the new freenode. You probably wouldn't blink an eye at it.

aw4y 5y ago

amazing how it's called "libera" (free as in freedom) and you cannot connect if on VPN -.-

mrweasel 5y ago
Well, that not really true is it. I'm on a VPN and it works fine. They also write that they're working on being available on TOR. Perhaps it's your VPN provider?
- aw4y 5y ago
  it's ProtonVPN, paid version. weird, uh?
  - nso 5y ago
    It looks like the DNS is still propagating through the internet, and from some servers it does not resolve yet. Also it looks like they are just generally down a lot right now.

travisgriggs 5y ago

Honest/weird question. This is (at least) time number two, that OSS projects have used the "Libre/Libera" term in community reboot/rebrand efforts. Nothing against speakers of French which have given us so many beautiful words, but there is something off putting about libre/libera for me in "brand names". I like what they stand for even! They just don't roll off the tongue for me. Is this just a "me thing"? Maybe there's something inherit about the actual phonetics that makes it off putting for me?

jeltz 5y ago
Where are you from? I am Swedish and I feel these names work just fine both in Swedish and in English.
- travisgriggs 5y ago
  Amurhica. :) However, I do speak Norwegian (and can limp med Svenska). Even if I tenk på det på Norsk, det fremdeles er samme :D. GratisNet would have been kult I guess. Or ÅpneNet.
  - mrweasel 5y ago
    GratisDNS in Denmark is weird enough, let’s not go that route. ÅpneNet, now that is something I want.
- galgalesh 5y ago
  Works fine in Dutch too, imo.
- toxik 5y ago
  I've already misspelled it is libra a couple of times.
  - harikb 5y ago
    Don't forget Libra coin/currency that was going to solve all the worlds problems :P

dom96 5y ago

I'm curious why Freenode staffers aren't instead moving to OFTC (https://www.oftc.net/ https://www.oftc.net/). Seems like a well structured network with a lot of history.

rockdoe 5y ago
For one the policies are quite different: non-open source channels need to be secret. This isn't a requirement on freenode.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

natural219 5y ago

If you’re going to switch a bunch of servers anyway, why not start over by partnering with someone like Matrix.org? Dead simple to create an IRC<->matrix bridge for people who just love the old protocol, and decentralization efforts always have strength in numbers.

metroholografix 5y ago
A lot of people find Matrix completely unpalatable. Why would they support it in this way? IRC works and has worked for decades. Its minimal, text-only, no bs, no distractions nature is its greatest asset. Client support, programmability, and ease of integration too. The folks that like Matrix are already using it. The folks that have stuck with IRC for decades will not abandon it for a protocol they deem to be inferior.
- natural219 5y ago
  Trust me, I get that; the main argument is that, in protocol wars, there's strength in numbers; IRC is a waning protocol, Matrix is a waxing protocol. I'm not saying people must change what's working for them already; my only case is that _if_ what _was_ working for you is now broken (the freenode network), you have a new opportunity to re-evaluate your position. That's all. You don't even have to go "all in" on all the fancy new Matrix stuff; just write a wrapper to comply with being a "homeserver", and continue using the IRC API with no changes. If not, that's also fine, I'm not that invested in this personally.
- anticensor 5y ago
  The opposition might be due to the fact that Matrix is persistent, IRC is ephemeral.
tristan957 5y ago
The Matrix-IRC bridge is absolutely horrible and leads to terrible experiences for Matrix users and IRC users.
- natural219 5y ago

duxup 5y ago

Yeah so Freenode went wrong and they created this. Why wouldn't this go the way of Freenode? Who is in charge? How do we even know this already isn't the same as Freenode? I know addressing a messy past on a new site is no fun / I saw the other articles on HN, but ... they should still address who is running the show and some level of assurances (as much as you can in text on the internet) that this is a good place.

ilaksh 5y ago
They did address the ownership. It's a non-profit. The people running the show are associated with many of the greatest open source projects. Projects where literal geniuses have donated thousands of hours to make software and services available to you and I free of charge. You know how Discord now has a channel for every game or new service that comes out? Freenode IRC has always been like that, except for core and interesting FOSS systems. For example, actual Linux maintainers might be in a #linux channel, and the guy who invented the Nim programming language would hang out in #nim. The people running the show are those people and friends of those people. The guy who was f'ing with it was just some greedy guy who got control of the domain name and lied and said he wouldn't interfere with the non-profit activities. But then he started advertising lame services on the home page and messing with the networking etc. So they fixed it by getting a new domain. Because they are problem solvers.
- void_mint 5y ago
  Is this satire?
  - ilaksh 5y ago
    What on earth makes you think that?
    - Lammy 5y ago
      We have the best geniuses — the best! My father — great man; very smart; raised me well — my father told me computers are the most important. We do the software, and we do the best software, and we're WINNING!

Lammy 5y ago

It's worrisome to me that one of the stated objections I've seen to Freenode's new owner is related to his personal politics: https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461 https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461 My own personal politics are probably very very similar to the above author who was complaining about the new owner being "Trumpian", but what will happen if/when we disagreed about something? Would I get the boot from Libera? I totally don't care about Orange Man's fans enough to leave a network over it. e: You gotta appreciate the irony of which group is censoring me right here with downvote-as-disagree :)

notRobot 5y ago
IDK man, it's not just politics. Trump supporters also often seem to be misogynistic/bigoted/racist. Are those the kinds of people you want being in charge of online communities? That person is completely within their rights to not want to work for someone like that.
- coldpie 5y ago
  I agree with you, although it would be nice if there were some real sources instead of just a pile of invective.
  - notRobot 5y ago
    I'm not sure what you want sources for? Trump being racist? Here you go: https://www.reddit.com/r/FragileWhiteRedditor/comments/ecajmz/does_this_count/fbazhe8/?context=1 https://www.reddit.com/r/FragileWhiteRedditor/comments/ecajm... So people who support him are also probably racist, or at least okay with him being racist.
    - Lammy 5y ago
      Personally I don't think racism is a binary. Trying to bucket people into racist and not-racist seems like an overly-simplistic way to look at humans.

OrvalWintermute 5y ago

Freenode has been a positively awesome and welcoming group of communities. Was particularly pleased with the security enhancements over time compared to most IRC networks Looking forward to joining Libera Chat.

varispeed 5y ago

Do we know why there has been no update to IRC protocol to ensure end to end encryption? I understand that doing e2e for public chats is extremely complex - so these could remain public, but private messages could easily be encrypted.

andrewzah 5y ago
It's a huge pain in Matrix with even a small amount of users in a chat. At least for me, I've never used IRC where I cared about e2e. There are other services for that, including just encrypting with the other party's public pgp key.
kdragon 5y ago
I think group e2ee is overblown and self-defeating in principle. Good luck auditing a ratcheting e2ee algo. Plus it breaks often, and group encryption is defeated by any user in the chat. Direct e2ee is far simpler and can be expanded to small groups without the need for complex ratcheting trees. Anything larger and you may as well fall-back to client-server with e2e communications.
progval 5y ago
There is OTR: https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/ https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/ but as far as I know there is only one implementation, and it's underdocumented. The protocol itself seems well specified, but it doesn't use "standard" primitives https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/Protocol-v3-4.1.1.html https://otr.cypherpunks.ca/Protocol-v3-4.1.1.html And UIs are usually not great (you have to check a shared secret via a trusted channel). There are also talks of an OTRv4, shared by XMPP and IRC: https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-ideas/issues/67 https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-ideas/issues/67 but the protocol is even more complex, I even have a hard time following the introductory sections of its specification.

techrat 5y ago

https://www.kline.sh/ https://www.kline.sh/ Statement from the ex-Freenode Staff is now official.

nednar 5y ago

What is the purpose of this?

joecool1029 5y ago

I think this actually happened before with Freenode staff breaking off into another network. Around 2006 staff got pissed at lilo (I forget the exact reasons) and started the Atheme network. Later that year lilo was run over and killed. After this staff returned and Atheme became the testing grounds for their new services and is today what Freenode runs as their services suite.

kragen 5y ago
This is different; this is a hostile takeover.
- joecool1029 5y ago
  That's a matter of perspective. Lilo's dead so it's not like we'll hear his side of the story. For other examples of forks which may or may not be considered hostile by some, see the ffmpeg/libav split from some years back (that just like Freenode, eventually reconverged).
  - Arnavion 5y ago
    ffmpeg and libav didn't "eventually reconverge." ffmpeg was always copying anything new that libav added when it made sense, and libav was eventually abandoned.
- ryanlol 5y ago
  Is it though? It seems that this was all initiated by freenode staff trying to walk back on the deal Christel made with rasengan, forcing his hand.
  - kragen 5y ago
    Christel was selling something she didn't own.
    - ryanlol 5y ago

orliesaurus 5y ago

Well I joined so I guess I might see you on #libera, #stripe or ##orliesaurus

jokoon 5y ago

Not enough users

superkuh 5y ago

First a pandemic and now my online home of the last 20 years being torn apart. This is really upsetting. The people of freenode are something special. I really hope the community can manage the switch without loosing too much of everything. Already the channel registration on libera is throwing established communities into chaos. I really hate that corporate shell game bullshit and attempts at monetization are being made by a dude that professes to love IRC. I wish andrew could acknowledge the hurt he is causing but it seems like saving face matters more to him at this point.

drenvuk 5y ago
it will settle. Just keep trying, we'll get back together.
ilaksh 5y ago
If he has caused that much of a problem, then just move on. Block him, stop mentioning him by name, and forget about it. For the open source community, he no longer exists. I mean I feel like changing the domain name is less of a problem than the one all of the 4000 people named Andrew Lee who are not that guy now have. It's a lot harder to change a legal name. So they will have to live with his bad reputation potentially rubbing off on them. But luckily online most people use aliases so that should mitigate it somewhat. Libera.chat is a more modern name anyway.
- unixhero 5y ago
  Hosting an irc Network is more work than you might think. Just a new domain name and a VPS with a service running on it might not be enough.
  - a1369209993 5y ago
    Supposedly[0] all the servers and other network infrastructure are intact, and it's solely the domain names (freenode.{org,net,com}) that were compromised. Grain of salt, obviously, but they have at least claimed there isn't a problem there. 0: https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409 https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af4...

Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur) "In 2021, Lee took control of freenode, making some staff resign and move to Libera.chat." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libera.chat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libera.chat Freenode's wikipedia entry also has been updated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenode https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenode Not sure how I feel about those lightning fast Wikipedia changes.

mst 5y ago
Mr. Lee annoyed some wikipedia editors in the process of screwing up freenode. This has consequences.
Lammy 5y ago
"making" lol

WaitWaitWha 5y ago

The network policies, and Guidelines, recommendations and best practices are already fraught with subjectivity and the unsolvable dichotomy of carrier v publisher (at least in the USA).

Lammy 5y ago
"While we believe in the concept of freedom of thought and freedom of expression, Libera.Chat does not operate on the basis of absolute freedom of speech". Ah I see: https://libera.chat/policies https://libera.chat/policies I would feel way more confident if they defined all the terms used in this document e.g. "various forms of antisocial behaviour are forbidden", "discrimination", "any other behaviour meant to deliberately put upon a person harassment, alarm or distress". The vagueness is rather alarming and distressing to me.
- deadbunny 5y ago
  The problem with extremely well defined limits is that those who choose to be assholes will ride up to that line and push it constantly. Then use the defense "the rules don't say I can't call you a butthead", so the rules get updated then they push some more and the cycle repeats. With fuzzier boundaries if someone is being an ass you can kick them the first time. This does of course mean you need a decent set of moderators and an appeals process to prevent people power tripping.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    In my experience those kind of clauses are more often used to silence wrongthink than to rid communities of people who are truly disruptive. You can count me out. The chilling effect is real.

donatj 5y ago

Trying to register with NickServ with my gmail, which is by far my primary email address. > Sorry, we do not accept registrations with email addresses from that domain. Use another address. That's going to limit adoption.

sapphire_tomb 5y ago
Weird. It let me use my Gmail address.
tych0 5y ago
You might try it again later; my coworkers and I have been having problems registering all morning.
progval 5y ago
They are overloaded with registrations; they might have blocked gmail temporarily because gmail's spam filter.
donatj 5y ago
FWIW I got in shortly after I posted this by capitalizing the G in Gmail.com
marcan_42 5y ago
This might have been a temporary antispam measure. They were having some issues.
lobocinza 5y ago
Nothing to do with Gmail, just overload. Try again later. I had the same problem this morning but succeed to register a few minutes later.

dt3ft 5y ago

He acquired a site I built which I used to operate on user donations. Today the site no longer exists.

eatbitseveryday 5y ago

The word "Libera" definitely initially speaks like "Liberia" the West African country. I wonder if one would mistakenly think this was African chat.

spike021 5y ago

It's too bad they couldn't export the nick db from Freenode and do some kind of auth to allow people to keep their identities.

harikb 5y ago
Yeah, this is the biggest issue I see. I am guessing at least a few will lose their well-known-ids to someone else.
tannhauser23 5y ago
The owner of Freenode might have a problem with that.
Biganon 5y ago
And in addition to nicks, all the channels and who is their Founder (at least), or even all users with special roles

dang 5y ago

Looks like the relevant previous threads are: Leaving Freenode for a new network - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27207440 - May 2021 (253 comments) Freenode resignation is official, not a draft - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27205926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27205926 - May 2021 (10 comments) The Freenode resignation FAQ, or: “what the fuck is going on?” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27169301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27169301 - May 2021 (8 comments) I am resigning along with most other Freenode staff - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153338 - May 2021 (262 comments)

tootie 5y ago
Aside from not really knowing what Freenode is/was (a bunch of IRC servers?) none of that really makes clear what Andrew Lee is actually doing that is so objectionable.
- 0xbadcafebee 5y ago
  "Asserting control." Basically the old admins are having a conniption fit because they don't get to do whatever they want.
- gpvos 5y ago
  Putting adverts on the website, apparently. Some projects just fiercely want to stay noncommercial, so they will object at this. I am reminded of a comment from the time when Wikipedia was trying to figure out how to cover their costs: The bigger danger isn't advertisers manipulating content, but that people will no longer see Wikipedia as theirs, they will see it as yet another place that corporations bombard them with adverts. — Sid http://gondwanaland.com/mlog/2007/01/02/wikipedia-advertising/#comment-70489 http://gondwanaland.com/mlog/2007/01/02/wikipedia-advertisin...
  - fairity 5y ago
    > Putting adverts on the website, apparently. Where is this motive made apparent?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

wchar_t 5y ago

I suppose that Freenode will survive the mass exodus going on right now, but will become something akin to the Sourceforge of IRC afterwards.

Avamander 5y ago
Sourceforge has tried hard to get rid of that reputation under new management.
- wearywanderer 5y ago
  I'm afraid they may as well try to bail the Titanic. That ship has already sunk.
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    I dunno I think it is doable. They still have a fairly well known name and a fair number of projects are still there (somehow). Their real problem is the actual website UI sucks. I don't think they've changed it for about a decade. If I were them I'd take something like Gogs and rebuild the site based on that.
    - bawolff 5y ago
      Their real problem is that github exists now
    - badsectoracula 5y ago
      Gogs (and Github, Gitlab, etc) are different than Sourceforge though, SF's project pages are targeted towards users of the software, whereas Github/Gogs/etc are targeted towards developers. Now obviously when you have developers make that choice you get them show a preference towards developer-targeted services, but at the end of the day they are not the same. Notice how in a typical Sourceforge page you get the name of the project right at the front with big letters, right below it a rating by its users, how popular it is and when it was last updated (though that date is misleading because it tracks all the project data and not releases) as the most important bits, with a big fat green DOWNLOAD button next to those and buttons to be notified for updates and sharing the software with others? Then the information panel below these describe the software, what features it has, etc followed by screenshots, category information, license, etc and then comments/reviews by users. This panel is just one tab with others being the files for users to download, reviews, support, forums, etc. The code, where you can see the repository, is at the last tab. This is a design very strongly targeted towards users, unlike Github/etc that right in the front page of a project show the repository and rely on Readmes to show any information. Some projects even use Github (or Gitlab or whatever similar tool/service) for the repository while keeping other functionality, like downloads, mailing lists (that AFAIK no other similar service offers, btw) in Sourceforge. That is not to say that Sourceforge's UI doesn't need a bit of a cleanup, but replacing it with something like Gogs (or anything Github-like) isn't going to work since Sourceforge's UI has a different target and goal.

p1mrx 5y ago

The logo reminds me of a DOS game called Aldo's Adventure: https://youtu.be/Ik2N4opZynQ?t=200 https://youtu.be/Ik2N4opZynQ?t=200 I guess it's mainly due to the EGA-like magenta/blue/white color scheme.

dddw 5y ago

Anyone noticed their twitter handle @liberachat is tempbanned?

globular-toast 5y ago

I suspect IRC will always have a place in my heart, but it doesn't seem to be what it once was. Is there some hip new place where people hang out to discuss and help with stuff like JS frameworks and the like? I don't necessarily want to go there, but I'd like to know where it is.

EamonnMR 5y ago

While we're talking about IRC/former freenode, what where your favorite freenode channels?

EamonnMR 5y ago

While we're all switching to Libera chat, anyone have good recommendations for general channels they follow besides project channels? (the Lubuntu and Ubuntu channels where very helpful when I needed them!)

capableweb 5y ago
Examples: /msg alis LIST *linux* /msg alis LIST *clojure* /msg alis LIST *art* Up to you really, tooling is there for you to explore :)

z3t4 5y ago

I don't know if this is legit or not, but a Swedish non profit is pretty awesome, it means that anyone can be a member as long as they pay a yearly symbolic member fee. Everything is owned by the members and is fully democratic, where each member has equal voting power, where members usually select a board, and the board makes the daily decisions. When it comes to taxes, etc, non-profits pretty much don't pay any taxes, yet can make millions in profit - as long as you spend that money in ways that benefits the members.

nexuist 5y ago
Is this something anyone can do, or do you need someone to be a Swedish citizen first?
- emj 5y ago
  I don't know but the according to the forms for registration you seem to need a Swedish identification number for the CEO of the non-profit. The same is true when you want to change the members of the governing council. These are hard to get a hold of if you do not live here. You also need to be based in some part of Sweden, and there is a fee associated with moving HQ to a different region in Sweden. These organizations can be insanely complicated in their nature and are allowed to own and operate very large companies (some of the largest in Sweden are owned this way). Changing governing council: https://bolagsverket.se/polopoly_fs/1.279!/Menu/general/column-content/pdfFile/915.pdf https://bolagsverket.se/polopoly_fs/1.279!/Menu/general/colu... registring a new non-profit. https://www.skatteverket.se/foretag/etjansterochblanketter/blanketterbroschyrer/blanketter/info/8400.4.39f16f103821c58f680007104.html https://www.skatteverket.se/foretag/etjansterochblanketter/b...
dijit 5y ago
The way you put this it sounds as if it would be easy to take over a non-profit. Just send people in with token amounts of money and vote on things that benefit your company.
- jlokier 5y ago

aasasd 5y ago

> When freenode announced that it was joining with Private Internet Access, staff were uncertain but assured that PIA was to have no operational influence I mean, promises like that sound like obvious bullshit to me. ‘EA promises that Codemasters will continue to operate on their own like they did’. Yeah sure buds, who are you taking me for. Unless the company is a cash cow startup, why would anyone buy it with other aims than to try making it bring a bit more profit than the previous owners could manage? (Buying the team/the technology is pretty much the same, as it means the workings of the business will be thrown away.)

shp0ngle 5y ago
Private Internet Access commented on Twitter that they have nothing to do with this actually. They used to be in the same portfolio of companies (of this mr. Lee), they are not anymore.

senbarryobama 5y ago

Most hobbies I'm into (3d printing/pen plotting) have moved to Discord.

senbarryobama 5y ago

Interesting, but most hobbies I'm into (pen plotting/3d printing) have moved to Discord.

NaturalPhallacy 5y ago

tl;dr: Ideologically everyone needs to do a s/freenode/libera.chat/g

ashneo76 5y ago

I am so excited about Libera.chat. I am excited to go on the next step of the journey with all of you!

mech422 5y ago

The part I don't get is there was the same drama when freenode was founded... The org structure (wasn't it a non-profit at one point?), the donation drives, etc. There was a lot of "much larger irc networks don't need all this", "its a cash grab", etc. Now, it seems to have fallen victim to the very issues the organization was supposed to prevent ?

chx 5y ago
There was a nonprofit, but it was dissolved in 2013. https://web.archive.org/web/20130423011409/http://blog.freenode.net:80/2013/03/bye-bye-pdpc/ https://web.archive.org/web/20130423011409/http://blog.freen...
- mech422 5y ago
  Interesting...I wasn't even aware they had moved to the UK. It does seem anything more then 10 years old now is forgotten as 'ancient history' :-P The whole purpose of the original freenode organization seems to have been lost in the mists. Or maybe I'm just getting old and poetic :-P

jhatemyjob 5y ago

RIP freenode. This is never gonna take off. Terrible name. I have zero temptation to type `libera.chat` into my IRC client. I feel like I got chlamydia from typing that just now.

chx 5y ago

christel deleted her twitter. Google shows it as protected https://i.imgur.com/dVNMqZ2.png https://i.imgur.com/dVNMqZ2.png but it's gone.

mlang23 5y ago

RIP lilo

kevwil 5y ago

I just realized it's been years since I logged in to freenode. What have I become?

population293 5y ago

I wish the registration was done through public key rather than email