58 ms·

On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

• at_a_remove 5y ago
  This is a long essay which raises problems but has no solutions, and so it is difficult to give a deeply coherent response to it which covers all of the points. However, since it seems to focus, however nebulously, on "problems with/for men," I can attempt something. When was the last time you hear someone mention "masculinity" without "toxic" leading out in front like a particularly ugly hood ornament? With that in mind, what are men going to do around one another, waving this big TOXIC badge around? Men's groups? Derided, often pried apart legally if they reach the level of some kind of club. Nor have individual bonds escaped notice: deep friendship between men, that's largely reformulated as "bromance," because of course men do not understand friendship, we have to make everything they do about the pursuit of sex. You can hear from many married men about the sudden winnowing of their friendships based on the approval list. If you're a man who is a bachelor, you know that friendships with other bachelor men are different than friendship with married men, and quite a bit of the latter is the approval factor. Acceptable, if barely, would be a "sports bar" with boozy comments to near strangers about the performance of strangers; shallow, not deep. And so modern society has atomized men. To stretch the metaphor further, we're pretty much only allowed covalent bonds with women. Being single is out. I can't tell you the number of times I have had a co-worker, invariably a woman, say "Don't you want a girlfriend?" And thus our only real value is to serve as providers to women, if they'll have us. If not, well, we're certainly not supposed to hang out with one another and find other things fulfilling. Once men with such hunger would fork over their dollars at strip clubs; now a new generation has abstracted this away to OnlyFans, in keeping with the general trend that previous person-to-person interaction will eventually attract a corporation which wants to mediate this, for profit. And the indoctrination goes so deep: Elliot Rodgers, misogynist, right? Kills twice as many men as women, but hey, is it like men count? When was the last time you heard of someone who shot and killed men referred to as a "misandrist"? Please, try to recall. Frankly, the trend of demonizing men cannot continue forever and I suspect the repercussions will be disliked, but so many seem to focus on staying that particular course, full speed ahead. I'm out of the game myself (one might argue that I never really entered the field), but I cannot help but feel tremendously for the young men today.
• kace91 5y ago
  >I can choose to pity or hate him, but having chosen I can’t pretend the choice didn’t exist; it’s something I had to do. I've had to face similar situations in my family life, and this part really resonated with me. It's an extremely eloquent way of capturing something I've never been able to put into words. Thank you for that.
  • chdaniel 5y ago
    I didn't really understand that part. Mind re-wording it in an easier manner for me?
    • CaveTech 5y ago
      He has abrasive behaviour due to his circumstances. The author has the choice of overlooking the negatives and empathizing with him (pity), or rejecting his behaviour regardless of why (hate). Both reactions can be rationalized and he has the ability to choose which way he leans.
    • kace91 5y ago
      When you have to make hard choices in life (staying with a partner, maintaining a relationship with a toxic family member, supporting a friend that's behaving in a way you don't approve), it's easy to be on the fence since you will have arguments for and against the decision. However, once we choose, we tend to incorporate that choice into our narrative as the solution that makes sense, and reinforce it to the point that we end up forgetting there was once an alternative. "I left my wife, it was miserable, I'm so glad I left", etc. It is good to not forget that there was once a choice to make, the choice wasn't easy, and there were arguments in the other side that could have won.
  • commandlinefan 5y ago
    I'm really worried for my teenage son. Dating was brutal when I was doing it 20 years ago, and as far as I can tell, it's gotten so, so much worse since. Modern dating can't literally be "winner take all", but it sure looks like it's getting close.
• giantg2 5y ago
  "It’s 2021, and it would be pretty hard to find someone who would come out and say that women deserve to be treated worse than men by default, and similarly difficult to find someone believes men shouldn’t have rights. In that sense at least we are all feminists and men’s rights activists, but nearly 100% of everyone reading this would have felt some emotional recoil from being called at least one of those two things. Why? Because there’s a vast difference between a person who believes the stated beliefs of a group as opposed to a person who holds membership in a group as a defining part of their identity." The piece of the puzzle that this misses is the difference in perceived reality between the groups - the definitions those groups use to define equal and the policies they think would provide equality. Sometimes the policies of the two groups in question are actually at odds with each other, and even their own stated intent (equality).
  • MattGaiser 5y ago
    Or the fuzzier "equity" vs "equality" debate.
    • throwawayboise 5y ago
      Or equality of opportunity vs equality in outcomes.
      • edgyquant 5y ago
        I’ve seen this thrown around by Jordan Peterson and his fans but I’ve never met anyone, regardless of how crazy their ideology was, advocate for equality of outcomes outside of basic necessities. I’m convinced it’s a strawman.
        • Phrodo_00 5y ago
          Haven't had a refresher on it since high school, so I might be totally out of the loop, but isn't equality of outcome the point of marxism?
• benlivengood 5y ago
  > I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy in life is their partner then something is wrong. Mental health is no joke and not being able to enjoy life is usually a symptom of an underlying cause. Depression is probably the most common but anxiety disorders can be similarly hard. I think that's the strongest criticism of incels as well; having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. No one wants to be the partner that gives meaning to another person's life, unless they're also codependent in some way. It's emotionally draining to take on that kind of responsibility. EDIT to add: the best explanation that I've heard for the feeling men have of basic unhappiness without romance and sex is toxic masculinity; the general societal rejection of deep emotional relationships between straight men. Lonely? Make strong friendships! Spend your time with other men who like you and enjoy your company and validate you. A partner is not a replacement for the natural circle of close friends humans are supposed to have. I'll be honest that I'm not the best at doing this, to my own detriment, but I think it's basically the solution.
  • throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    >having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. It is for many, many, many people.
    • edgyquant 5y ago
      Yeah people who say this are so wrong, companionship and a significant other is a required for a fulfilled life for a majority of people. We evolved to have this, and most people need it. You shouldn’t depend on one for happiness, but there is nothing wrong or weird about longing for one.
      • Pfhreak 5y ago
        On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve yourself through building skills, seeking therapy, finding appropriate medications, or whatever else. Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.
• draw_down 5y ago
  If you think that's bad, wait till you see what happens when the husband isn't interested in sex! Guess who's fault it is in that scenario.
• chasd00 5y ago
  isn't sex/partner/pro-creation at the very root of all forms of life? If you can't have sex then nature is saying you shouldn't have sex.
  • usbline 5y ago
    No, this is a social problem and has nothing to do with nature.
    • jnwatson 5y ago
      Humans are social animals. The size of our brains, ability to use language, are all "nature's" solutions to social problems. That women are deep down attracted to men of status is hard-wired, and the result of thousands of years of natural selection. The nexus among status-seeking behavior, current economic realities, and the changing marketplace of dating, is the primary driver behind "incels". In other words, nature is a significant factor in this problem.
      • usbline 5y ago
        >status-seeking behavior not nature >current economic realities not nature >the changing marketplace of dating again, not nature
        • deleted 5y ago
          [deleted]
        • jimmaswell 5y ago
          When a monkey vies for status in its group, it's nature, but when a human does the same thing, it's not?
          • usbline 5y ago
            Why do you insist on calling social behavior "nature"? Terrible troll.
• tomp 5y ago
  For another similarly compassionate view of “incels” see: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-roman... Edit: fixed link to point to the right article
  • matheusmoreira 5y ago
    This is a really good article, thanks. It links to this one which is also great: https://www.city-journal.org/html/rush-judgment-12282.html https://www.city-journal.org/html/rush-judgment-12282.html
• Jaygles 5y ago
  This is a sensitive topic that's hard to bring up and keep things productive in discussing it. So often I see examples of bad behavior, and the commentary is often to demonize and treat the offender as an outcast. We aren't going to make progress until we start considering that the offenders might be acting out due to internal turmoil and trauma, and that we should be trying to help these people, not outcast them.
• mattgreenrocks 5y ago
  There is a lot to unpack here, and it is difficult to know where to begin. I had a friend who was a pastor who lamented he didn't like that his yearly board game get-together with his other [often pastor] friends often ended up discussing their dead bedrooms. I have no idea how these dynamics have come to be so common, even taking into account the usual ebbs and flows in relationships. I don't know if this problem occurs at higher rates in more religious couples. I suspect that this is the collateral damage of [obviously misguided] purity culture, but we see the same patterns outside of religious couples. Edit: I should clarify to say the only reason I'm writing this is that these problems have a big impact on people's lives, aren't easy to fix, and often buried from everyone around them.
  • 74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago
    > [obviously misguided] purity culture As far as I understand it celibacy of men devoted to religion or spiritual endeavours is not about "purity" but total focus. And I don't think that is misguided. It's just very resolute.
    • mattgreenrocks 5y ago
      That was in reference to the evangelical version of those ideas, where the body was inherently sinful. > And I don't think that is misguided. It's just very resolute. Agree. Celibacy is difficult but can teach much.
      • 74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago
        It's not my cup of tea. But I don't like the general "celibacy is bad and turns men into criminal pedophiles" agenda.
      • AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        I don't think that the body being inherently sinful is actually a part of evangelical Christianity. I'm sure there will be some within the evangelical category that teach that, but I think the core evangelical position is this: Sex is for marriage. Outside of marriage, sex is sinful/evil. But within marriage, it is good and to be enjoyed. Now, you can still think of that as "misguided purity culture", but it's not "the body is inherently sinful".
• neom 5y ago
  I was quite out of tune with this whole issue until I watched the Alek Minassian[1] interview/confession[2]. I still don't really know what to make of it. I will warn you: it's not easy listening, however, it is eye opening and adds further context to this substack post. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_van_attack [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGFWovUuWak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGFWovUuWak
• diveanon 5y ago
  Can we please leave this kind of stuff on reddit? I know HN has pretty broad rules, but between stuff like this and the near constant posts about the SV housing market it really cheapens the forum.
  • jmull 5y ago
    Use the “hide” link. It’s perfect for the posts on topics you don’t want to see any more of.
    • diveanon 5y ago
      Does it hide later posts on similar topics?
• coderintherye 5y ago
  For any suffering a communication issue in your relationship, I can't recommend enough the book: "Conscious Loving" [1] Asides from being an enjoyable read, it provides an excellent framework and guide for how to have conversations about difficult topics successfully. It pairs well with the book "Nonviolent Communication" These things take time and effort, but they really truly work. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Loving-Co-Commitment-Gay-Hendricks/dp/0553354116/ https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Loving-Co-Commitment-Gay-He...
• temp667 5y ago
  Is this too simplistic? Take care of yourself - health (mental and physical etc). Sex work should be legal if there is a "market failure" as the article argues. If someone doesn't want sex in a relationship and other person does - any way to negotiate something - ie, get on tinder for one person or whatever if the issue isn't so critical to break up over? Is porn a problem? ie, perception everyone getting lots of crazy deep throat action or whatever? Real life is not exactly like that I don't think? One tip - get off computer / phone / ipad and out from in front of TV. Seriously your life gets better so many ways. Board in bed? Sex gets a lot more interesting.
  • tayo42 5y ago
    Kind of interesting, I really have no idea what peoples sex life is like on average. Idk how you can find out, no one wants to talk about it. So either porn or the rare few that do want to talk about it. But those few are going to be such outliers they're likely not average or just lieing
    • sigstoat 5y ago
      > Kind of interesting, I really have no idea what peoples sex life is like on average. Idk how you can find out, no one wants to talk about it. i assume the Kinsey Institute has studied this; they do regular surveys and such on the topic.
    • MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      So few people talk about it ever that as far as I'm aware, all these children born nowadays have all been immaculately conceived.
    • kingsuper20 5y ago
      > or just lieing Well, that's the thing. People either lie or (more likely) what they say and what they do are different. My guess is that any study you look at is only slightly tied to reality if it depends on interviews or questionnaires.
• deleted 5y ago
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• jimbob45 5y ago
  Yeah that quote is a bit silly. Nazi was a shortening of "National Socialist German Workers' Party" which, by this article's logic, means that socialists today should feel at least some level of kinship to the Nazi party. In reality, the Nazis were socialist largely in name only. Likewise, today's feminists have a much broader and less altruistic agenda than one could reasonably infer from their name.
  • Pfhreak 5y ago
    > feminists have a much broader and less altruistic agenda than one could reasonably infer from their name What is the evidence that leads you to this nonsense conclusion?
    • edgyquant 5y ago
      Far right propaganda
      • textgel 5y ago
        Which when translated from the progressive "your truth" to reality comes out as video and written evidence.
        • edgyquant 5y ago
          A right wing video, sure.
          • textgel 5y ago
            Its generally those that contain such things
  • int_19h 5y ago
    The original NSDAP was quite socialist, and even as Hitler developed it into his own party, it retained a strong socialist faction, which we now refer to as the Strasserites. It was purged eventually, but the history is there. FWIW, "red-brown" political alliances are still a prominent thing in some countries, usually based on shared social conservative ideals. Furthermore, there are political movements such as National Bolshevism that explicitly draw this connection.
• tomc1985 5y ago
  Have there been any comparative studies on this phenomenon between countries with legalized sex work and countries without? I live in a country where it is illegal and have gone through very long dry spells, and let me tell you it is extremely frustrating. If love, sex, and relationships are as core to people's self-confidence as the author makes it out to be, it seems imperative to let people have access to those things in at least some form. I've certainly been envious of those countries where I would have the option to order up a temporary lover, and the useful-if-fleeting confidence boost that comes with.
• waythro123123 5y ago
  My pet theory is that the developed or post-industrialized world is becoming increasingly two-classed. I have had the privilege of having a decent job (being so-called "economically desirable") and decent education and was able to find someone who I think loves me for who I am, for some definition of "I am". That being said, the "incel" problem concerns me. I think the existence of this entire class of individuals shows that the ideals of equity in gender relations, just like the ideal of equity in relations across economic classes (i.e., being equal before the law, regardless of how much money you have) is obviously a grand ideal that we cannot live up to. I once tried talking to my girlfriend about it when the topic came up. I brought up the usual statistics that show that men graduate from college at a lesser rate than women, nowawdays. That they are more likely to die in violence or from drugs. That this compounds with the fact that the status of women in the world has generally raised (a _good_ thing!) and that the average woman wants someone who is above them on the social or economic ladder. Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. They need to pull themselves up from their bootstraps, and "man up", but we also must remember that "man up" is a problematic term that is part of "toxic masculinity". Of course, all of this was foreseen by French novelist Houellebecq. Economic liberalization has lead to social/sexual liberation. After a period of free love things settle down and here we are. Just as most of the new income generated by later periods of economic liberalization go to the top 20%, so it is with the sexual market. I've tried to stop moralizing it for my own mental health. Like the author, I just try to look at it with a degree of sympathy. It's complex, and it's kinda fucked up. For myself, these hard statistical realities have increasingly robbed me of the romantic impulse. Marriage to me now seems absurd. An empty, pyrrhic victory.
  • PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    > Just as most of the new income generated by later periods of economic liberalization go to the top 20%, so it is with the sexual market. I don't even know what this means. What is "the new income" in "the sexual market"? What is "the top 20%" ? How does "income" "go to" any particular percentile in "the sexual market" ?
• underseacables 5y ago
  What a fascinating article! I came away with a very bold “misery loves company” feeling. Misery amongst a group begets misery. I wonder how feeling the psychological need to blame someone, some thing for failure, plays in relationships?
• andred14 5y ago
  Face the facts people: Our loneliness has been exacerbated by media, politicians and their new cult of fear and destruction.
• a_band 5y ago
  The correlation of the appearance of this phenomenon with the rise of porn really shouldn't be ignored.
  • gustavo-fring 5y ago
    Can't be ignored but that rise was caused by and coincides with a ton of other cultural, social, and technological changes.
    • a_band 5y ago
      I agree. But porn directly targets sexual behavior and response. It's the sugar soda to obesity. But to singly focus on it would also be a mistake.
      • MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
        I agree about the porn thing, but I'd argue that is not so much one of the major issues surrounding it so much as teens not having sex at the rates they used to. More teens are entering college as virgins, men aren't being taught how to navigate social/sexual relationships by their fathers or friends, media content online holds greater value over real personal relationships, and frankly videogames nowadays have all but turned into time wasting gambling. I mean if you put a weak willed person in a room with any vice they'd want, they're gonna fail. And we're packed to the brim with vices. Now how do you expect any impressionable young man growing up to not become jaded because dating is bar none more difficult than it has ever been? Not only that, the fear of getting the girl pregnant and she keeps it or divorce. I feel like with all the stories about how men appear to get the short end of the stick oftentimes, it's led to a jaded understanding of the system.
  • cblconfederate 5y ago
    Assuming porn causes incels, but the golden age of porn started at 1969, so that doesnt work. Assuming incels cause porn, has porn become more profitable in the past ~20 years? I 'd say probably true based on the innovation of the profitability models , expecially after onlyfans became a thing
• medium_burrito 5y ago
  I think we need to legalize both polygamy and sex work. 1) Given the dating dynamics of 80% of women wanting only 20% of the men, clearly society is depriving these women of their desired relationships. 2) If the 80% of men cannot have a relationship, and we agree sex is a basic need, and we don't have sex robots yet, then sex work fulfills a valuable role. https://web.archive.org/web/20091121080804/http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/2009/11/17/your-looks-and-online-dating/ https://web.archive.org/web/20091121080804/http://blog.okcup...
  • gustavo-fring 5y ago
    This is kind of ignoring that people get and look for different things in sex work than they do in regular relationships. There's no indication that 20% actually would prefer to be sex workers to get more men.
• Jun8 5y ago
  You might also want to read Scott Aaronson's excellent analysis on an adjacent but related topic: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3766 https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3766
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• h2odragon 5y ago
  Our inability to talk about sex is a big problem that enhances all the others. Some people are happy abstaining from sex altogether, those folks might have useful advice for the Incels but they're shy of offering from having been burnt before. There's plenty of people for whom sex isn't necessarily involved in romance; I personally think a lot of people suffer because they confuse and conflate those two ideas.
  • symlinkk 5y ago
    Abstaining from sex is not useful advice. Sex and intimacy is a fundamental human desire and it’s cruel and unethical to tell people that they should just suck it up and suppress it.
    • h2odragon 5y ago
      That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying the abstinate community exists, and could help. I've seen them try. If you think "abstinate" isn't a valid sexuality, that there aren't people who choose not to have sex just as there are people who choose other genders, machinery, etc; then we'll just have to disagree.
• carlisle_ 5y ago
  I really like this post because it exudes nuance. So many problems are boiled down to terse summaries that are barely accurate when examining details. People being hateful and violent are a problem. More of a problem are the conditions that push people in this direction. When presenting the underlying cause, people push back and instead focus on scapegoating or minimizing. This problem occurs in engineering all the time too. We accrue "tech debt" and when it bites us we're quick to blame incompetence or bad luck. Nobody wants to hear that the problem is because we have to "waste time" working on hardly visible components that don't change anything except "down the road." The problem is the same now. We blame "bad apples" and "bad days" instead of blaming our own culture and society and undertaking the effort to improve it. We try to make the world fit our own perspectives instead of critically examining our biases. We outright lie to ourselves, and I'm frankly sick of it.
  • neolefty 5y ago
    Agreed. It definitely helped me be more sympathetic to a wider variety of single men. All of us can do better (in the article's case, that includes single men who are romantically frustrated) and _almost_ all of also us deserve some sympathy. I thought the article did a great job of generously showing the overlap between the two. Showing that intersection — imperfect people with whom you can still sympathize — is key to being helpful. And overcoming imperfections is so much easier when you have help and a listening ear. I know plenty of young men who could use someone to talk to about this.
• dukeofdoom 5y ago
  I think more Americans should consider going back to Europe city. If things are not working out here. Do what other people have done and move away. Things are deteriorating here anyway and standard of living is going down. If you move to a larger European city, chances are you will end up walking a lot more, lose weight, and meet new people. People walk all the time. Just the idea of working here overtime for the next 30+ years to barely afford a new house should be enough motivation.
• toomuchredbull 5y ago
  I think it's fair to say his data shows a high percentage of "incels" are not the incels on the internet that are bad, but just guys who can't get women and they don't deserve our hatred. Similar to the Japanese phenomenon of "grass eaters"
  • at_a_remove 5y ago
    "Not deserving hatred" isn't enough today. Nuance is too much to ask for. Lump them all together and despise them, that is the order of the day.
    • Sakos 5y ago
      It's easier that way. If they're demonized, it means we don't have to grapple with the deeper issues and try to find some sort of solution to these issues. They're incels, thus (according to mainstream thought) they aren't deserving of empathy or help. They're sexists, racists and alt-right scumbags. Who cares if they die alone? Sympathize with them and you're lumped in with them too. It's not surprising, considering how difficult the topics are that are at the base of these issues, but it's still depressing. We're no closer to bridging the gap between the genders than we were 40 years ago, and it seems to be getting worse in different ways.
    • johnnyanmac 5y ago
      [Milkshake duck](https://www.vox.com/culture/22350188/what-is-a-milkshake-duck-definition-explained-jensen-karp-cinnamon-toast-shrimp https://www.vox.com/culture/22350188/what-is-a-milkshake-duc...) has been my favorite and most depressing way to portray and demonstrate this phenomenon as of late. Not to belittle people speaking out against abuse, but at some points in life you just see people digging through years, decades of internet comments and more just to find a "gotcha". It's honestly exhausting.
• haskellandchill 5y ago
  I'm an incel. It doesn't have to be sexist. I don't have any specific feelings towards women. I just know I don't get an ROI on investing in dating. So I just invest in my self for my self and allow myself one sexual interaction a month through paying for it like a service. I'm available for dating or relationships but have no expectations. It's healthy enough.
  • Hitton 5y ago
    >I just know I don't get an ROI on investing in dating. Nothing wrong with that, but that means it's voluntary. And the latter part means that it isn't even celibate.
    • haskellandchill 5y ago
      I interpret it as in the dating market I am effectively involuntarily celibate, perhaps there’s a more accurate subculture but I love incel tears. I also like the edginess. It’s a banned word on twitch.
  • cultofmetatron 5y ago
    sounds more like mgtow than incel.
• twobitshifter 5y ago
  The average man will go through a period of involuntary celibacy and I don’t believe this is a new thing but we’re now good at labeling. History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men! https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/201202/why-men-gave-polygamy https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2012... (Note not sure the primary source on this stat, but the general idea is that polygamy was once common leading to fewer men reproducing) We’re doing much better than that today, but how were things through history when 60% of men were “incels”? (Generally lots of violence) In the interim, the most restrictive religious social systems apportioned one man for one woman, held sex as a reward for marriage, and punished those that strayed outside of these lines. This achieved the objective of efficient coupling but I don’t think we would ever want to go back to those repressive systems that controlled women.
  • TameAntelope 5y ago
    I know we joke about it a lot, but I think there's a serious case to be made that the Internet's ability to connect groups of previously unconnected people might end up literally ending humanity, or at least severely setting humanity back from a human rights standpoint. "Incels" are one example of this that you're pointing out here, where a group of people who've always existed without name are now able to group together and create a feedback loop amongst themselves that results in literally mass murder.
    • waterhouse 5y ago
      > create a feedback loop amongst themselves that results in literally mass murder. I dispute that causation. Mass murderers are extreme outliers that usually have identifiable mental problems, and I would say the primary cause of their behavior is those mental problems, not whatever particular thing they say triggered them. Also, even if you did show that a certain ideological group was significantly overrepresented among mass murderers, you would have to rule out the other methods of causation (e.g. this guy is a loner because of various problems, and he joined this group of loners because they welcomed him—doesn't mean the group caused him to go commit the murders, and in fact it's conceivable that being in the group reduces the likelihood of the potential murderers actually going and doing it).
• navait 5y ago
  Is there any real policy options we can pursue? We can't assign mandatory girlfriends, and even if we could, they may not find it was what they wanted. I can help the poor and destitute much more effectively than I can wealthy people with vague psychological issues, and they also have more immediate needs. We all have limited time on our hands, and in terms of effectiveness, working with incels seems like something that's a lot of effort for very little benefit.
  • standardUser 5y ago
    There are policy options. I suggested in a comment: Decriminalize sex work, provide universal mental health coverage and implement a more expansive version of sex education in schools.
    • Sevastopol 5y ago
      Is sex that is paid for the same as one in a relationship where both people actually desire each other? The statistics in the article point to the "problem" being women's increasing standards that young men can't meet. Mental health coverage, polyamory, sexwork, etc. don't seem like relevant solutions.
• spoonjim 5y ago
  Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people. The need for sex is perhaps as high as the need for money but nobody talks about this crushing inequality, perhaps because there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. The problem is worse for men since a man needs a certain set of skills and traits to get casual sex, but is probably equally bad for the genders in terms of finding long term relationships. When social norms dictated that you must be married to have sex, every woman and man paired off and got to have sex, however low quality and in however unhappy of a marriage. I’m not sure this world is an improvement.
  • toyg 5y ago
    > there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. But there is a way to improve supply: give dignity to prostitution.
    • hn8788 5y ago
      That doesn't work out as well as it sounds. Unsuprisingly, the amount of women willing to have sex with strangers for money is relatively low. Studies have shown that legalizing prostitution increases the rate of human trafficking to meet the greater demand. https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-prostitution-increase-human-trafficking/ https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-...
      • toyg 5y ago
        That's a function of massive income inequality across countries, though. Fix that, and the incentive for trafficking disappears.
        • tengbretson 5y ago
          Let's start with the assumption that we will have to solve this problem while under the constraints of actual reality.
• dalbasal 5y ago
  >> there was a fairly polarized split between the she-doesn’t-owe-you-sex-you-child crowd and the good-for-him-dump-the-frigid-broad edgelords. I envied their respective positions and their certainty of being right, because I know too many people... There is a version of this essay that's about establishing who's right and wrong, personally and/or publicly. In some cases, those essays need to be written. Those don't require much empathy, and if they do it's a judicial sort of empathy. This essay we need more of, at least if we want to know more. Everyone is responsible for their own arseholery. I do think we need to be somewhat firm about what that is or isn't. But drawing lines isn't the whole game. Empathy is an actual requirement for understanding, because what empathy is, is human's innate ability to understand one another when we try.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• openasocket 5y ago
  > if 51% of young men are single and only 31% of women in the same age bracket are, that implies something is up So that statistic really confuses me, how could that be the case? The data seems to imply a significant number of women are dating men far older than themselves, which just doesn't seem true to me. I'm wondering if that is a sampling error or different genders are interpreting the question differently. It kind of reminds me of a study I heard about a few years back claiming that straight men average three times as many sexual partners as straight women. Except, that isn't possible! If you're only having heterosexual relationships, and you have the same number of men and women, the average number of relationships for men and women should be identical! The conclusion is that either that study either had sampling issues, or the respondents were exaggerating. That could be the obvious (men inflating their number of sexual partners, women deflating their numbers, due to societal pressures) but also different interpretations of the question. I'm wondering if we're seeing the same thing here. Either those Pew statistics aren't a representative sample, or we're seeing inconsistent responses.
  • guerrilla 5y ago
    > So that statistic really confuses me, how could that be the case? The data seems to imply a significant number of women are dating men far older than themselves, which just doesn't seem true to me. Having just read a bunch of research coming from psychology on sex differences, this is very plausible to me. Most studies indicated that women wanted to date someone a few to ten years older while men wanted to date someone few to ten years younger.
  • dcolkitt 5y ago
    My very strong suspicion is there’s lots of relationships that are encapsulated by this Mitch Hedberg quote: “I don’t have a girlfriend. I do have a girl who’d be mad if she heard me say that.”
  • nextlevelwizard 5y ago
    I don't know about second study or what flaws they had, but that definitely is possible if: A) the men in the study are having "side chicks" i.e. in sexual relationship with multiple women at the same time. B) women are more selective with whom they sleep with i.e. they rather not have sex than have sex with a "loser". It only doesn't make sense if everyone are in monogameous relationships and everyone has sex as often as everyone else. For the study cited in the post it could be different definitions of "commited relationship" i.e. maybe more of the young men don't view their relationships are serious, but the women who they are dating view it as such. But also I am not surprised that 20 year old women are dating/marrying 30 year old men, but that is seldom the other way around.
• colanderman 5y ago
  I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex. The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M) are always the result of one party being incapable of understanding the other's desire for sex. This leads them when pressed to try approaches such as, substituting "being nicer" for sex, trying therapy to reduce their partner's sex drive, or just forgetting about the problem because they are unable to sympathize with it. Ideas such as initiating sex more often or opening up the relationship either don't occur to them, are vehemently opposed, or forgotten about. No-one is entitled to sex. But individuals in a sexually-exclusive relationship are entitled to sympathy, action, and compromise from their partner to bridge severe differences in sexuality, just the same as any other sticking point in a relationship.
  • throwaway8581 5y ago
    Agreed. This is also ancient wisdom. The major religions all maintain that spouses have a duty to sexually please each other.
    • colanderman 5y ago
      Unfortunately major religions seem to approach this subject with a cudgel. I think a more charitable reading of their approach is often recognizing that sexual incompatibility is just cause for (otherwise taboo) divorce.
    • throwaway98797 5y ago
      if one is monogamous then there is obligation or so the bible says. we modified one but not the other. we reap what we sow.
    • oblio 5y ago
      Not really. In many of them it's just about having kids.
• 29athrowaway 5y ago
  When the Internet started expanding, the first communities to connect were communities forming around common interests shared by the majority of people and businesses. But then something happened... controversial/evil communities started forming: hate speech, racism, harassment, mysogenists, flat earthers, anti vaxxers, scammers... Geographically speaking, incels are very sparsely distributed. But now the incel guy in one town can connect to an incel guy in another town. And groups that did not have a critical mass to start a community before, now do. Before the Internet, without interaction with an incel communities, incels would be brought back to sanity through assimilation by other groups in society. Now with the Internet, incels can connect with other incels, reinforce their behavior and become radicalized. That sucks. Connecting people is not necessarily a good thing.
• everdrive 5y ago
  >Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. This will be downvoted and poorly received, but the fact is that women despise weak men. If a man is in a poor state, most women will be visibly disgusted by him. A man generally should not expect sympathy from women, because most of the time he'll get scorn instead.
  • throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Everyone wants everyone else to adopt an idealistic world view while they use shrewd pragmatism to navigate life.
    • Workaccount2 5y ago
      I couldn't agree with this more, and very much to my personal detriment I spent way to much time trying to live those ideals. In the end it's just left me fruitless and feeling like a sucker.
    • betwixthewires 5y ago
      It's a shame this account is a throwaway.
      • Viliam1234 5y ago
        it's a shrewd pragmatic way to navigate online debates
  • colmvp 5y ago
    Some of my best friends are women and have been there for me in ways that my other guy friends certainly haven't during bouts of loneliness during times of lockdowns. But perhaps it is different when it comes to partners.
    • serverholic 5y ago
• jsdwarf 5y ago
  I think relational "age brackets" play a huge role in the incel phenomenon. Let's assume that by convention the male partner in an adult relationship has to be 0 to 6 years older than the female. This means that a female of 22 years can look for a partner between 22 and 28 years. A male at the same age can only look for 18-22 year olds (consent age, maturity of younger females) resulting a 33% smaller age range for potential partners. The male "hunting range" is further diminished by the fact that they cut the ties to their high school at the age of 19 (college, job). This means they lose access to younger potential partners and have more equally aged women in their environment, who are likely more attracted to older males.
• 1970-01-01 5y ago
  A million dollar startup idea: Instead of a spreadsheet, use ML to predict if you will get sex or an excuse. Predict the excuse with a confidence level, and add suggestions on what to do for breaking the pattern. Happy coding :)
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• ceilingcorner 5y ago
  These issues are far more serious than is known and commenters saying “too bad, you don’t deserve to date someone” really don’t understand how ineffective this approach is. You can’t just shame tens of thousands of men into accepting a substandard life. Disclaimer: I am not making any ethical judgments here, just observing. This problem didn’t really exist before for three reasons. One, widespread access to prostitution and its social acceptability. Reading books from earlier centuries, it’s noticeable how common this was and how little anyone seemed to be socially stigmatized by going to a brothel. Two, enforced monogamy. Our current culture is centered on removing restrictions. And as with every market, removing the restrictions on sexual access means the top players get more “resources” while the bottom get none. Monogamy was historically the solution to this. Three, the primary model of marriage being one of love or connection, and not of uniting families, having children, or passing on property. This, combined with our consumeristic society, leads people to always assume that a better option is available. Add easy divorce laws and Tinder, and the incentives for trying to work out any problems (or even get into a relationship in the first place) are nearly nonexistent. It really doesn’t seem like the culture is going to accept enforcing monogamy (2) or restrictions on divorce (3), but it does seem like (1) might be legalized at some point. Personally, that seems something of a dystopian solution to the problem, but that’s just me.
  • toyg 5y ago
    > Personally, that seems something of a dystopian solution to the problem It's the one with the fewer externalities. Forcing an unhappy couple to stay together can traumatize children, produce widespread violence (another one of those things that were kinda just "accepted" in the past), and even end up in murder. It would be much more dystopian to force women into distributing sex equally, surely?
    • ceilingcorner 5y ago
      These aren’t either or situations. Acting as if the only options are an abusive marriage or prostitution is really misleading. There are plenty of ways to incentivize monogamy, disincentivize divorce, and yet still allow for individual freedom. Why haven’t these been tested? I’ll suggest because like all movements, the gender equality movement has been driven largely by extremist activists (who gain social power) and corporations (who gain more workers and consumers), not by average people.
• hbeqresponse 5y ago
  “It's a fact...that in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolute pauperization . Some men make love every day; others five or six times in their life, or never. Some make love with dozens of women; others with none. It's what's known as 'the law of the market'...Economic liberalism is an extension of the domain of the struggle, its extension to all ages and all classes of society. Sexual liberalism is likewise an extension of the domain of the struggle, its extension to all ages and all classes of society.” - Michel Houellebecq, Whatever
• rmk 5y ago
  What I'm saying below applies to the advanced liberal economies (the rest of the world is not in this place yet). I think the intersection of feminism, women entering the workforce, globalization and the attendant economic insecurity, and the shift to a service-oriented economy (where women do much better than men) have all combined to put men in a difficult position: on average, women are feminists when it comes to power plays that pit females as a class against men (feminism is first and foremost about power, equality second), but they still expect men to be the providers (most women do not want to marry a man who makes less than them), and also expect men to do the dangerous occupations (oil rig workers, police, military, particularly infantry, waste disposal and handling, construction). Perhaps women have won a pyrrhic victory here: they have successfully risen in power, pay, education, independence, and social standing, but at what cost? The asymmetry in sexuality between the sexes has always been there, but now, there is no framework to reconcile it: traditional norms, which reconciled this at great cost to women, have now been overturned, but modern-day practices have pushed things in the opposite direction, extracting a heavy cost from men. It's difficult to say one is better than the other.
• didibus 5y ago
  > In that sense at least we are all feminists and men’s rights activists, but nearly 100% of everyone reading this would have felt some emotional recoil from being called at least one of those two things. Why? I guess I fall outside that range. Do most people actually find themselves having emotional recoil here? I personally feel very much a pro-women and pro-men rights supporter. Do most people not feel like that? But see it as a women vs men and not a equal rights for all kind of thing?
  • Secretmapper 5y ago
    It's the label, as both of the labels sadly have very negative connotations now due to echo chambers.
  • standardUser 5y ago
    I can't help but react negatively to "Men's Rights" the same way I react negatively to "White Power" or "Corporate Welfare".
• rc-1140 5y ago
  One thing about the post in its entirety, not just the content, that really stood out to me was that there was a commenter "kayla" who behaved exactly in the manner that the author outlined when talking about the "feminist" and "MRA" subgroups. They immediately jumped onto the aggressor's bandwagon, saying that the lowercase-i incels were simply too lazy to fix their problems even though extremely-generalized and dismissive solutions (prostitutes, therapy) existed. The author tried to open a discussion about their position with an incredibly well-thought out response, and all "kayla" could do was respond to their own post afterwards about having sympathy for the users of the "dead berdoom" board on Reddit but still behaving in the same manner that the author outlined (i.e., just fix your problem you lazy bum). It's very troubling that the type of person described by the author immediately arrives on site and starts their spiel.
  • ceilingcorner 5y ago
    If the model did not accurately predict the hostile reaction, it was not a useful model.
  • colmvp 5y ago
    Yup, and that's why it's practically impossible to talk about in real life. All they do is push people who experience this into the darkest places of the internet. Their beliefs that all you have to do is try harder belong in /r/thanksimcured
  • Igelau 5y ago
    Kayla's suggestion about prostitution was positively revolting. That position seems to hate just about everyone: incels should just go solve their problem illegally in a way that happens to be the antithesis of feminism.
    • standardUser 5y ago
      Sex work is in no way, shape or form the "antithesis of feminism". And I think it was clear that Kayla was suggesting that such work not be illegal, not that men go solve their problem in an illegal manner.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• pengaru 5y ago
  Isn't it kind of obvious that young single men are competing with nearly all adult men for the young women? Esp. with the rising divorce rates, more non-young men are going back on the market than previously, and they've got more financial stability and general security to offer than most their younger competitors. I'm betting they're not exactly chomping at the bit to shack up with women their age or older.
  • txsoftwaredev 5y ago
    Divorce rates have been falling over the past decade. In 2019 divorce rates hit an all time low.
    • ameminator 5y ago
      Only because marriage rates have been falling faster. The divorce rate (divorces/population) has not fallen as fast as the marriage rate (marriages/population). The number of divorces/marriage is still on the rise. No one is getting married these days and when they do, they are more likely to get divorced.
• caymanjim 5y ago
  > My apologies for the poor-quality clip; the wife has since scrubbed the post and all her comments. For better or worse, this is what remains of this particular piece of internet history. What kind of asshole takes a deeply personal thing like this, which has been deleted by the original poster, keeps a screenshot of it lying around, and then reposts it as completely unnecessary flair on their blog? Maybe take the hint that she regretted posting it or didn't want it public anymore. Just because technology has all but destroyed privacy doesn't mean that it's ok to take advantage of it and be indecent.
• woeirua 5y ago
  Legalizing sex work is just papering over the problem here. A lot of men want long-term, committed relationships as well as sex. They want to build families and have children. Allowing them to consort with prostitutes will only solve this fundamental imbalance temporarily.
• standardUser 5y ago
  There are some real solutions to be had here... 1) Decriminalize sex work. 2) Implement a national healthcare system that fully covers mental health services, including regular therapy sessions. 3) Expand sex education to include more diverse types of sex and relationships, including non-monogamy. These won't solve the problem. They will absolutely make the problem less severe.
  • at_a_remove 5y ago
    We have plenty of places decriminalizing sex work. What they are not decriminalizing, however, is purchasing sex work. Both are required for the first item on your list to do anything. And it that is going to require a lot of nuance, too. I recall seeing someone reacting to a post by a former sex worker who lamented how these men had been "raping her body." If that is considered a valid viewpoint, then even more work must be done at the decriminalization level, otherwise you will have seller's remorse hanging over someone with a very long statute of limitations.
    • standardUser 5y ago
      Right, it must be decriminalized entirely, not just select aspects. It reminds me of when a lot of places decriminalized marijuana possession, while somehow forgetting that weed does not materialize out of thin air but must be grown and distributed. Meaning the thing they just "decriminalized" was still part and parcel of illegal acts. So far only those same cowardly half-measures have been used towards sex work in most of the US.
• ergot_vacation 5y ago
  The vast number of people commenting here that are convinced that a happy, healthy life is impossible without a sexual/romantic partner is eye-opening, and a bit horrifying. Other people will not fix you. Trying to drown your problems in a woman (or man!) is no different then trying to drown them in food, or alcohol, or any number of harder drugs. Stop running from your problems and face them.
  • creata 5y ago
    Mind explaining (a) precisely whom you're talking to in your second paragraph, (b) how you inferred that they're running from their problems, and (c) what those problems are?
  • symlinkk 5y ago
    Reproduction may be the most fundamental desire that humans have and is essential to the continuation of the species.
  • Sevastopol 5y ago
    > healthy life is impossible without a sexual/romantic partner is eye-opening, and a bit horrifying. It seems to be true for most people, in my experience. I don't see it as "horrifying", just a normal/typical human thing.
• djoldman 5y ago
  After reading the article, I'm not sure what the main thrust of it is besides, "there are people with relationship problems stemming from one party wanting more sex than the other." There's a discussion about incels and statistics cited, as well as an appeal for sympathy towards those with these difficulties. Is there something I'm missing? I think some of the language isn't quite right but it easily passes considering the spirit of good intent.
  • SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
    The article is arguing against the contrary position, common the author's circles (and in my own), that these problems aren't real and the people who express them deserve condemnation rather than sympathy.
• theropost 5y ago
  It must be confusing to be a boy these days with all the conflicting messaging on how they should or should not be. The expectations of men are conflicting, confusing, uneven, and ever-changing. Equality is thrown around, with many exceptions across the board. Men simply bite their tongues in society, and are expected to do so without much complaint. Men are told to share their feelings, but then ignored or shamed when they try. It's a very confusing time for men/boys - I have a daughter and a son. I feel like my daughter can do anything, and will be fine in the future. I can't same the same for my son these days, I worry the paths he will have to choose.
  • standardUser 5y ago
    Your son will likely never be sexually harassed or assaulted, which is something we can't say about most women.
    • addison-lee 5y ago
      And there it is, your bias is exactly the problem. Per https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics 81% of women experience sexual harassment/assault in their lifetimes along with 43% of men. Please educate yourself and stop spreading the lie that men are not sexually assaulted, it’s incredibly destructive.
      • standardUser 5y ago
        Less than half? Seems like my statement was factual, but that didn't stop you from jumping all over it to make some kind of point.
        • addison-lee 5y ago
          43% of men experience sexual assault/harassment in their lifetime, yet you are sticking by your statement that “Your son will likely never be sexually harassed or assaulted”? A 57% chance of something happening is definitely not likely. And yes I am clearly making a point: people that gloss over sexual crimes against men are spreading destructive lies not supported by any data. Maybe it went over your head the first time I said it?
• didibus 5y ago
  I can't seem to make head and tails of this data. I guess the explanation would be that older men are dating younger women, which explains why younger men are single compared to younger women. But looking at the distribution, it seems it would need to come from the 65+ cohort... And that would be a little surprising.
• cblconfederate 5y ago
  Everything has already been said about this subject. Looking at it as a technology problem, it's not a novel problem, i think every advanced and successful society has dealt with it in the past. In ancient athens, Solon's 'technological' solution was to create state brothels for everyone with regulated prices. Rome's foundational myth contains the abduction of the Sabine women, which fulfilled the needs of Roman incel warriors for wives. Victorian age london was full of brothels. The second part of this 'technological' solution was the subjugation of women. Nowadays, as the article says, it's hard to deny that the problem exists, but it's fair to say that the solutions above are not going to recur in any advanced society. However, we do have sex tech that is advancing by leaps, and we should be able to solve the physical/sexual part of the problem soon. We don't have a tech solution for the intimacy deficit, but I think that it can be dealt with alternative bonds and more generally with doing things that are fulfilling. We are not far from the first ex utero children, which should contribute to solving that intimacy deficit. Now, i don't know how many startups are working in this area at the moment; there are definetly some teledildonics companies.
• kar5pt 5y ago
  I believe that there are a lot of sexless/loveless men who aren't violent or misogynistic. The problem is nobody pays attention to them. They only become visible to society when they say and do violent, misogynistic things. Then people say that it must be their fault for being violent and misogynist.
• odiroot 5y ago
  The longer I live, and especially after having read that post, the more I think the civil institution of marriage is a mistake. We would be better off, if it remained a purely religious or traditional ceremony, without the government putting a stack of papers into the equation. Just let people be happy together; even bound by a promise, if they wish so, but without the external pressure and the fallout in case they fall out of love. Divorces are such a complicated and often-times life ruining experience. So many people are pushed by their families (or even blackmailed by their partners) to go into a marriage they are often not very sure about, and have no easy way to get out of. It's probably one of the riskiest contracts one can sign.
  • sokoloff 5y ago
    I'll take some of the other side here. I'm married; my wife didn't have strong feelings about getting married (lived in Europe for a while and was comfortable raising a family together unmarried); I wanted to get married earlier than we did. We have two children together and she wanted to stay home with the kids for a few years but wasn't willing to do that without the framework of a marriage in place. Was 10 years ago and no sign that we're headed for trouble, but the civil and legal framework and what was at stake as a result was helpful to support a choice that we were all fortunate to benefit from all around (with a slight hit to retirement savings account balances).
  • brandmeyer 5y ago
    > Fallout in case they fall out of love. Divorces are such a complicated and often-times life ruining experience. The fallout is going to happen no matter what. Marriage and Divorce law exist to bring a bare minimum of equity in the outcome and assure the care of any minor children who are affected.
  • kelnos 5y ago
    A breakup sans marriage is still going to be devastating. At minimum, how do you decide who gets what, without some sort of legal framework around it? What if you end up in the hospital, unconscious? Who makes care decisions for you? Sure, we can have a legal framework just for that, but that's just one more thing you have to do. What if you die? Who gets your stuff? Sure, you should have written up a will, but many people haven't done it. More overhead. Something to consider is how long homosexual communities have fought for marriage equality. Yes, part of it is certainly symbolic, but I've spoken to gay/lesbian friends who (when they couldn't get married) were anxious all the time about not having the legal benefits around marriage. I think it'd be possible to not have legal marriage anymore, but you'd still have to have a bunch of legal constructs around the idea of being partnered to someone in order for many life things to work properly. Whether or not that would be better or worse is certainly up for debate.
• j3s 5y ago
  This person is basically saying "show sympathy to those with intentionally despicable viewpoints, because maybe you can convert them". Stating this ulterior motive undermines the whole point - if your motivation is to change them, it is not to understand them or sympathize with them. It also begs the question: are these newly formed sympathizers susceptible to being converted themselves? Could the sympathy train lead to even more incels, not fewer?
• dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  It's a great thing we are finally starting to talk about these issues in a normal way instead of ridiculing them.
• a_puppy 5y ago
  I'm a guy who has, for my entire life, struggled to form romantic relationships. For a long time, I also struggled to form friendships. So I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this, and here are my thoughts: The term "incel" is used to mean two wildly different things: - One meaning is "an incel is someone who's single and complains about it". Statistically, a few percent of 30-year-old men are virgins. Some of those are for religious reasons, but a lot of them are involuntary. So in this sense of the term "incel", I'd guess there are somewhere around a million male incels in the US today. - The other meaning is "an incel is a misogynistic asshole who uses terms like Chad/Stacy/femoid". This is a _much_ smaller group; I doubt there are more than a few thousand people active on incel forums. A lot of people conflate these two groups, and that's very unfair to the former group. There's been a lot of discussion of the latter group, because they're dramatic and highly visible. But the former group is actually much larger; they just aren't as visible, often because the sufferers try to hide it. We need to talk about the former type of "incel" -- people who are lonely and suffering, but haven't done anything wrong! My theory for how people get into this situation, is that they get stuck in a vicious cycle of impaired social skills: 1. For some reason, they don't have age-appropriate social skills. 2. Because they lack social skills, their peers don't want to interact with them. 3. Because they don't interact with their peers, they don't develop social skills. When the problem gets bad enough, social interactions become traumatic. The sufferer learns that every time they try to interact with other people (whether romantically or not) they'll receive cold stares and harsh rejection. So they become scared to even try to interact with people, which makes it even harder to escape the cycle. Many different things can potentially trigger this cycle. Sometimes it starts with something like autism that biologically impairs their social skills. Other times there's nothing biologically wrong with them, but their peers shun them for some reason, and then it becomes self-reinforcing. There are no easy solutions to this problem. In particular, there certainly aren't easy solutions that are accessible to the people suffering from the problem; if there was an easy way out, they would have done it already! Therapy can help, but it's slow, expensive, inconvenient, and not guaranteed to work; so it's a poor substitute for "not being traumatized in the first place". I think the real solution will have to involve changes in society's attitude towards socially awkward people: - For one thing, we absolutely need to stop conflating the "raging misogynist" meaning of the word "incel" with the "man who's lonely" meaning of the word "incel". Lonely men should be able to talk about their suffering without people acting like they're misogynists. - For another thing, we should be kinder and more sensitive to socially awkward men when they try to make friends, or ask women on dates. Socially awkward people are often unintentionally rude, or accidentally make other people uncomfortable. Some people assume the awkward person is being rude on purpose, and react harshly; this makes it much harder for awkward people to escape the cycle. (Of course, nobody's obligated to be friends with a socially awkward person if they don't want to -- and in particular, women certainly aren't obligated to go on dates when they don't want to -- but I do think people should make an effort to reject socially awkward folks without traumatizing them!)
• dukeofdoom 5y ago
  I watched this average looking girl on youtube go to stunning. She started by caring about her appearance. And started looking to basically start upgrading her self, one step at a time. 1) She started to work out regularly 2) She got a nose job 3) Buys well fitting designer clothes 4) Spends money on hair and nails 5) Wears gold jewelry and hand bags. All of these complement her appearance. When some girls go to so much effort to look good. While the incel guy does nothing to improve their appearance. And often does the opposite. Terrible diet and sometimes even terrible hygenie. Yet expects to date a girl like this.
  • yamellasmallela 5y ago
    I agree but this is only applicable to incels who are "ugly". Some people are incels because they have no "game" and that is hard to fix. Also, not everyone can just get a nose job and be attractive magically. I think many people in the incel community don't understand how far showering, dressing well, and working out will get them. Its much better than complaining without any action. Also, I see many of them complaining about not dating "10s" yet never bother to look at people at their level.
    • Sevastopol 5y ago
      > I think many people in the incel community don't understand how far showering, dressing well, and working out will get them. Its much better than complaining without any action. Also, I see many of them complaining about not dating "10s" yet never bother to look at people at their level. This is not really true. At least in the observable, online incel communities. Incels talk a lot about "-maxxing"[1]; looksmaxxing (improving appearance), gymmaxxing (improving physique), surgerymaxxing, moneymaxxing, therapymaxxing, ... you get the point. The most common advice (showering, better clothes) is also a meme within the communities, like the "Just take a shower, bro" meme. [1] https://incels.wiki/w/-maxxing https://incels.wiki/w/-maxxing
  • mlyle 5y ago
    At the same time... if all the incels improve their fashion, attractiveness, and dating game... it's going to be at the expense of someone else, right? Or do we think more in total will end up partnered and the total size of the pie will increase?
• Invictus0 5y ago
  Almost everything on /r/relationships can be boiled down to poor communication on the part of one or more parties. Seriously. If everyone were taught proper communication and confrontation skills, there would be a lot more happy people on this earth. Dead bedrooms: instead of making a spreadsheet of your wife's excuses and passive aggressively emailing it to her, talk to her without anger or blame, explain how you feel, get a sense for how she feels, and make a plan to address the issue. Incels similarly have terrible communication skills and most probably wouldn't be incels today if they learned how to communicate. Their worldview is a way to cope with their issue without admitting they have an issue; by blaming another group (women) for the issue.
  • matheusmoreira 5y ago
    It has nothing to do with communication. People either desire you or they don't. You can't negotiate desire. I don't understand why anyone would want to be with someone who needs to be convinced and pressured to have sex. Spreadsheet guy eventually realized this. He saw the pattern for what it was and decided to end it. Yes, he could've handled it a lot better but I still respect him for exiting. He understood what he wanted, realized he was not getting it and decided to get out.
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• scottrogowski 5y ago
  I have a pet theory for this phenomenon. If you look at recently contacted peoples or those who have little contact with the outside world, endemic warfare is common. In these societies, well over 20% of men are killed in the ongoing conflicts. Evidence points to endemic warfare being common for most of human history and prehistory. Looking at our closest evolutionary cousins, the chimpanzees, it is the same if not more brutal. I think, on average, that men are more polyamorous than women partially because this fit our environment. It allowed women in a clan to be in child-bearing partnerships even if gender ratios were grossly imbalanced. While we are now in a very different environment where almost all men survive, our relative sexual and coupling urges have remained the same. Through most of the modern-era, post feudalism, this was solved through socially enforced monogamy. Now of course, with loosening restrictions, polyamory is gaining an acceptance it probably hasn't experienced since earlier eras of endemic warfare. To be clear, the lack of violence in modern life is a strictly _good_ thing. But I'm not sure where it leaves us for the future.
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• jokoon 5y ago
  It's weird because I thought I was part of that demographic, but I'm really not. What matters here is mental health, communication and a willingness to stop using stereotypes about masculinity or feminity. Body image problems and stereotyped social skills also are the problem. There is an arm length of emotional issues and personality types that stems from childhood. I discovered that most of the social mechanics at play in a romantic relationship are the same as in other types like friendship. Once you get that, it's easier. I've never really subscribed to the incel rhetoric, but there are interesting notions like non monogamy, female hypergamy, not to mention a lot of other statistics that help think about this issue.
• EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
  There are certain drugs that bring sexual desires to zero, and the experience could be really liberating, as I may personally attest. Life could be easier for those surplus men if they went this route.
  • harambae 5y ago
    What's the drug that does this without significant side-effects? (it's not meant to be a snarky comment, I'm genuinely curious)
    • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
      There are many, look up antiandrogens. There are no drugs without side effects, but I don't suffer anything drastic.
  • matheusmoreira 5y ago
    "Surplus men"...? So they should just give up and quietly accept their lot in life? That just doesn't seem right.
• dandare 5y ago
  Remark 1: To my knowledge, it is not uncommon that men switch genders when sharing their stories on reddit simply to get more empathic reception as opposed to some "men up" rebuttal. I did that after a therapist told me a man can not be abused by woman, I wanted to see if I am really emotionally abused or just crazy. It was very helpful. Remark 2: I vividly remember those gnawing feelings of sexual and romantic unfulfillment I suffered as a young man. But it is quite difficult to talk about those things without being accused of implying that men deserve sex and women are obliged to provide it. This post did an excellent job dancing around all the landmines, but not everybody has the capacity to do that and especially young people should have a safe platform where they could talk about these things. Remark 3: I have noticed that men's rights activists and feminists nowadays constantly accuse each other that the other group wants privileges, not an actual equality. I would love to see a reputable research on this topic.
  • old_fart_dev 5y ago
    On remark 2 - I think these feelings of unfulfillment are very common among young men (and women I imagine), but at that age, it's hard to find an audience of peers mature enough to discuss these feelings without falling into stereotypes and tropes (e.g. "bro" advice). On remark 3 - These are political debates, not conversations. There's no amount of data or statistics you can throw into the conversation that's going to convince either side to stop advocating their viewpoint.
    • dandare 5y ago
      remark 3 - I am not trying to convince anyone, I am trying to form an opinion.
• justwalt 5y ago
  Great post. As a man in my twenties, I think that, even though we’re hearing about this from the men at the bottom end of the sexual-success spectrum, the problem is still being felt by average men as well. Many of my friends have complained about how dating these days feels like women are always holding out for the next best thing, and I have to agree with them. A female friend of mine echoed a bit of the sentiment that a few of my friends had theorized was at least partly to blame, and that’s that she felt like had too much choice and was getting too much attention. She felt like her ego was being inflated in a way that was unhealthy, and so she turned away from online dating and eventually met her fiancé through mutual friends. I wish I had some actionable advice to give along with this anecdote, but I’m still stuck in the dating game myself.
  • Itsdijital 5y ago
    >She felt like her ego was being inflated in a way that was unhealthy, and so she turned away from online dating and eventually met her fiancé through mutual friends. I am not surprised she is engaged.
    • harambae 5y ago
      I was about to post this same thing. That takes an extraordinary amount of self-awareness and maturity on her part which can't be common.
• datavirtue 5y ago
  Seems like no one ever heard of church. I saw so many sewer pigs of both genders score a new young spouse it was rediculous.
• glangdale 5y ago
  It's weird that the obvious interpretation of the 'single by demographic group' graph isn't discussed at all. Specifically, there's a bulge of single men at the bottom of the age distribution and a bulge of single women at the top. While the average age difference of married couples isn't extreme, I would suspect that when you start getting towards the 'margins' of sexual desirability and social opportunity to meet people, the age differences skyrocket. This seems rather more likely than the idea that there are hordes of Chads each dating multiple women. It might also be a good thing for guys to remember; some of the advantages of still-on-the-market older men plundering down into their age group (e.g. 30-somethings dating 20-somethings) might be fairly easily simulated (dressing properly, housekeeping, having a job, not being a horny weirdo all the damn time - or at least not showing it quite so much). From experience a lot of guys in their teens and 20s are pretty rough around the edges.
• CapCade 5y ago
  I expect this will get lost in the commotion here, but: The author uses language around sex that I think treats it, subtly but disturbingly, as a commodity. They write of a "withholder/withholdee", of "women who want to provide sexual intimacy" (note the word "provide"), and of "women... putting out". The problem with this framework (which is endemic to the larger culture) is that it runs against bodily autonomy for all of us. If sex is a commodity, then the people who provide or withhold it are just means to an end. And treating people (including ourselves) as means to an end is rather degrading. Imagine using the same language for any other consensual activity. If someone's partner no longer wanted to go out dancing, play board games, or make music together, would we say they were "withholding gameplay" or failing to "provide entertainment" or no longer "putting out music"? I hope not.
  • xputer 5y ago
    The comparison seems off. What you're missing is monogamy. If your partner does not want to play board games as frequently as you, then it is perfectly acceptable to find someone else to play board games with. With sex in a monogamous relationship not so much. Even still, a healthy relationship is giving and taking. My wife may want me to go for evening walks with her while I hate them, but still I go with her because I know it makes her happy. Dead bedrooms are imo a sign of one partner not giving.
  • old_fart_dev 5y ago
    This is an excellent point. I always assumed the emotional aspect of sex was part of the reason the verb "withholding" was used, much in the same way it's used to describe a more generalized "withholding" of love and affection, whether it's as simple as a kind word or hug on upwards to the more carnal. But withholding something implies that thing is deserved or earned, which runs contrary to body autonomy. Even though he used this language, I thought the author did a pretty good job explaining why sex isn't something that's rarely "withheld" as a means to an end. But our language around love (physical and emotional) and relationships needs work.
  • troway357924 5y ago
    If your weekly tennis partner started canceling on you at the last minute, you'd get annoyed too. The difference is sex is often intrinsic to the relationship. When someone wants it a lot less or more or different than before then the terms of the relationship unexpectedly become worse for at least one person. That can feel like bad faith even if it wasn't.
• fallingfrog 5y ago
  Ok, I was expecting something caustic and awful but that all seemed pretty reasonable. It does suck being a young man who can’t get anyone to date you. Water water everywhere as they say. Here’s one thing that might help: women are in my experience often afraid of unattached young men, for good reason. They are afraid of being assaulted, they are afraid of being called “sluts”, they are afraid of men who become clingy and needy. And for good reason. If men’s behavior would change- which takes generations- women’s would too. Men need to be taught how to identify snd deal with their emotions at a young age, like women are, and how to think about the needs of others. That’s to do with upbringing and socialization. A person who doesn’t know how to be gentle and considerate is scary, especially when he is 6 inches taller and has 30 pounds more muscle mass than you, and it doesn’t take many of them to poison the well so that women just can’t take chances. Every woman has a stalker story- ask her about it.
• insaider 5y ago
  Super interesting read, I'm a data science and did some research on the same topic as part of a side business I was making that targeted tinder incels. Check it out, and my proposed solution (lol) https://smoothopener.com/ https://smoothopener.com/
• emmanueloga_ 5y ago
  That was a very, very, very long winded way to say "I'm sorry about what incels go through". I almost feel cheated to have read the whole thing without finding any substance :-/ The whole post strikes me as an example of how guarded we have become in our opinions... we have to build a fortress around discourse guarding against potential critics and justice warriors.
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• AmIDev 5y ago
  I don't understand if this post is exclusively about people who think that others are responsible for them not having sex, or about all those who don't get sex. I come in the latter category, and I don't think anyone needs to sympathize with me. The reason for me never having being in a relationship is exclusively due to issues with me, some that I have/had control over, like weight, grooming, and some that I have little/no control over, like looks, mental issues, height. It would however be nice if people didn't ridicule/look down upon lonely men, and if society wouldn't assign value to a man solely based on what he can provide to his family.
• bcoughlan 5y ago
  If I was born a few years later I could have easily ended up on those nice-guy, red pill type of forums. If you feel rejected by society it's easier than ever to retreat to your room and immerse yourself in an imagined sense of belonging to online groups. The basic ingredients are shyness, social anxiety and low self esteem (all easier to acquire than ever). After that it's a self-fulfilling downward spiral. You feel unlovable and so the world affirms it. The message we get from the media is that finding a partner is only for those who ooze confidence and charm. The West has a hidden Hikikomori epidemic too. Shared houses are full of single guys living on the internet and takeaway food in their rooms. We just don't have a word in the culture for it yet. Thankfully I met someone who was willing to look past the awkwardness and shyness and surface level quirks. I'm happily married now. I'm not sure I would have ever found my self esteem without her positive encouragement and support. The author's plea for compassion is probably what these guys need to begin healing.
• RGamma 5y ago
  I wish there was a way to opt out of all that sexuality/desire for relationships crap. Not that biology will easily let you.
• funky_banana 5y ago
  Sometimes I wonder if our expectations regarding frequency of sex get bolstered out of control by mass media pushing the idea that we need more sex to feel loved, in an attempt to sell plastic surgery or lingerie or penis-enlargement pills. There is a need for sex, but you certainly can't expect good sex, every time, all the time. That all to say: I'm not sure this is an actual problem than it is one crafted by one's own sexual expectations and even communication. It also ignores the reality of people who are asexual or simply have no interest in sex. I have a comparatively low sex drive where maybe I'll want to have sex once a month. My partner and I used to have sex every week for 2 years or so, but people change, and I've taken up a lot of hobbies so sex just gets forgotten. It's at the very bottom of my priority list and has been for years. At the same time, I made sure to communicate this with my partner with the reassurance that sex != strength of love. They thought about it, the long-term implications of it, and came back to me saying they were fine with a changed sex schedule. As a contingency, we both agreed that if either party wanted to have sex, they would bring it up with the other person and that request would be fulfilled. My partner and I value each other for our collective memories, compatibility, personality, etc. something that would be incredibly difficult and in fact, short-sighted, to replace simply because "we don't do sex good." Neither of us see our sex drives as an issue, simply because we don't prioritize sex as much as other relationship-building activities. I also have several asexual friends they are capable of living fulfilling lives either masturbating or not engaging in any sex at all. Some friends are too busy out and about and see sex as a thing they checked off their bucket list. A one-and-done experience that they've moved on from.