47 ms·

Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

566 points by cwwc 6y ago

LatteLazy 6y ago
That's pretty overwhelming too, 71% No. It would be interesting to hear from them why. I think we all have opinions (I certainly do). But I've never worked at amazon so my opinion is low value...
- Waterluvian 6y ago
  I'm curious if it's the same reason I put up with !@#$ earlier in my career: I don't have the luxury of taking risks and I'm just really not interested in upsetting my employer. You tell me there's a better world on the other side of the hill, but I'm just trying to keep my children from starving this month. I can't even begin to think about the uncertainty and risk of trying to get there. Some commentary: I think this is one reason why social safety nets are tremendously valuable. The reason I eventually took the risk was because being without a job was not a potential death sentence. I would have unemployment insurance for a while and universal healthcare would take care of my kids if they had sudden needs.
  - nanna 6y ago
    In other countries not hiring someone because of their union affiliation is flat out illegal. (Thanks to union and political struggles to protect collective bargaining as a right)
    - EarlKing 6y ago
      A lot of things are illegal in life ... but lawsuits take time and money most people don't have.
    - danielrpa 6y ago
      In the US many would argue that it's not collective bargaining if you are making the employer accept an union; it's putting a gun to the employer's head in the negotiations. Employers are people too! And an employer could be a small to medium company that is barely surviving against overseas competition. I understand others would say that the employer is more powerful to begin with and thus it's just a way to balance things. And without that, workers would be exploited and society would be worse off. The reason I'm writing this is that there are two sides of this discussion with pretty good arguments. So just because other countries think differently, it doesn't mean that they are doing the right thing.
      - friedman23 6y ago
        Modern morality is very simple Majority is more important than the minority. Poor is better than rich. Dumb is better than smart.
    - raisedbyninjas 6y ago
      Alabama is an at will employment state. Amazon doesn't need to provide any reason for employment termination. If this warehouse unionizes, Amazon may choose to relocate their warehouse. This is in a suburb of Birmingham, population over a million. So the workers probably aren't unusually desperate for work.
  - josefresco 6y ago
    > I'm just really not interested in upsetting my employer. This is the purpose of a union! Because you band together, the employer can't punish you individually. Sure they might be able to fire/replace everyone, but without a union they could target you specifically and there would be no leverage or help.
- tyingq 6y ago
  My guess is the messaging about dues. Lots of people focused on the short term hit to their paychecks. Most of the stories reference $500/month. That does seem high. Data I can find for other unions shows somewhere between 1 to 4 percent of gross pay as typical for union dues. Assuming $15/hour, 4 percent of gross pay would be $144/month. But, if $500/month is accurate, it's 13.8% of gross pay for $15/hour workers, and 10.4% of gross for $20/hour workers. That's very high. Edit: $500/year. There were many news stories with the inaccurate $500/month quote.
  - bena 6y ago
    That short term hit can have long term consequences. If I'm scraping by already, I'm not looking forward to taking another hit to an already stretched paycheck.
    - tyingq 6y ago
      It does seem like the union missed an opportunity here. They should have offered some ramp up, or reconsidered the $500/month. If that's indeed accurate, it's 13.8% of gross pay for $15/hour workers, and 10.4% of gross for $20/hour workers. That seems really high. Edit: It's apparently $500/year, see other posts though, many news stories did post $500/month.
    - sitkack 6y ago
      If that is indeed the primary motivator, that folks are literally getting paid so little that they can't afford the union dues then two things should happen The union should wave union dues until wages rise and ??? This seems not unlike Walmart informing employees that it is paying them so little that they qualify for Food Stamps. Looking forward to the Amazon paper, "Pareto Optimal Employee Compensation for Maintaining Fluid Labor Markets"
      - shagie 6y ago
        Alabama is a right to work state. No one has to pay dues. https://www.justia.com/employment/unions/right-to-work-and-union-dues/ https://www.justia.com/employment/unions/right-to-work-and-u... > A union is an exclusive collective bargaining agent, which means that it must fairly represent all of the workers in the bargaining unit, including those who have decided not to be members or pay dues.
- rshm 6y ago
  I would guess, fear of retribution from amazon. If the voting was nationwide it could have lowered the fear that amazon could treat one location better in things like expansion.
- oramit 6y ago
  Yeah I can think of lots of reasons for this loss. 1. It's always harder to get people to vote to change the status quo. Even if people think the change is going to be good, people are usually risk averse so you need to work harder to change things vs stay the same. 2. Their general opinion about unions is poor. 3. Their specific opinion about this union and the unionization effort is poor. 4. Dues were too high vs benefits. 5. Worry about retaliation from Amazon. 6. I imagine a lot of people don't really think of their Amazon warehouse job as a career. Most people working there probably only plan to do it for a few years, in which case the value of union membership falls dramatically. Just some ideas.
kadomony 6y ago
Why would vote against your own benefit? It's astounding that these people are happy to be exploited.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Why would vote against your own benefit? I guess they disagree with you on what the benefits are? If the goal of the vote was to give these workers a voice then... I guess mission accomplished. You can't reasonably then say you don't like what they say with their voice!
- _-david-_ 6y ago
  Calling people stupid is a great way to get them to agree with you.
  - kadomony 6y ago
    Fair remark, and I edited the comment. It just pisses me off that capitalism has worked so well in brainwashing poverty-line workers to think that they should never organize, think to revolt, or ask for what they're actually due. It saddens me that some people won't know what they don't know and will be the perfect pawns to exploit for near slave wages because "progressive ideas bad, America great".
    - prepend 6y ago
      > poverty-line workers This vote wasn’t by poverty-line workers. The poverty line in Alabama for a family of 4 is $26k. [0] So even if the worker in Bessemer is a single parent they are above the line. And if they are part of a two income household then they are above the median income of $51k. [1] It’s interesting to me how people generalize incorrectly without considering the local situation of people impacted. Clearly incorrect statements like yours should be adjusted to have greater impact. The whole country doesn’t have the income and expense characteristics of where I live. [0] https://talkpoverty.org/state-year-report/alabama-2020-report/ https://talkpoverty.org/state-year-report/alabama-2020-repor... [1] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/AL/BZA210218 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/AL/BZA210218
nanna 6y ago
I'm confused, why did they need a vote to start a union? Here in the UK pretty sure if a load of workers want to start a union, they can - irrespective of whether they're in the majority or not. Sounds to me like the circumscription of a need for a majority itself comes from anti-union legislation.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  The vote was to unionise the workplace, not to form a union. You can form a union whenever you want, like you can form any other group of people a club. You just can't unilaterally force an employer to deal with you.
  - tarquinpussy 6y ago
    I hate to say it but I think the UK system is better. No closed shops, but if enough of the workplace (50%?) join the union, the employer has to deal with them.
    - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
      > but if enough of the workplace (50%?) join the union, the employer has to deal with them. Fewer than 50% of employees voted to form a union, so the result isn't really any different.
    - didgeoridoo 6y ago
      Is that meaningfully different from a vote, then? You get the majority, you get the union. If you’re a recognized union, NLRB says the employer must deal with you.
      - tarquinpussy 6y ago
        Well it's not meaningfully different from a vote in that it forces the employer to deal. But it does mean that there are no closed shops, so nobody is forced to join a union just to work in a certain place.
Loughla 6y ago
I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.
- trackmenot 6y ago
  My theory is that rich people and well-educated people vote according to self-interest, but poor and non-educated people according to identity. Billionaires votes for whoever lowers their taxes, academics for whoever secures them, often tax-funded, jobs, but poor people for whoever they like personally. I'm positive that education was strongly correlated with voting in favor of unionization. This is something the left everywhere struggles with enormously. When poor people are too dumb to vote according to their own self-interest, the left's worldview falls down. The left then claims that poor people are brainwashed by capitalist propaganda. Yeah, maybe, but it can't explain completely disastrous results like this unionization vote. Misguided people will claim that unionization is not in the self-interest of most workers. Those people are wrong as there are about a billion studies showing that unionization improves both salaries and working conditions. For example: https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/ https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/ The science is incredibly clear-cut and these workers who voted against unionization voted against their own self-interest.
  - wavefunction 6y ago
    Poor people vote in their own interest just like anyone else but their options are limited and often the opportunity to consider all their options is truncated by the vagaries of life on the edge of dissolution.
- gruez 6y ago
  From an earlier thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26749927 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26749927
- brighton36 6y ago
delecti 6y ago
So, leaving aside why someone would or would not want to join a union, why is this a majority vote? If 49% of a workforce wants to unionize, why can't they?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- moioci 6y ago
  Not a lawyer or organized labor person, but a favorable vote would turn the warehouse into a "union shop," where the union negotiates on behalf of everyone, member or not, with regard to wages and working conditions and collects dues from everyone, member or not. In my very limited experience, the union offers some benefit like vision coverage to encourage people to join.
  - didgeoridoo 6y ago
    Mostly correct, although Alabama is a “right to work” state which means you cannot be forced to join a union in order to take a job. You may be compelled to pay “agency fees” which are generally lower than full membership dues, though.
- underseacables 6y ago
  Without force the unions can’t exist. It’s like a lot of things with government involvement: Unless you are forced to do it, many people, especially if money is involved, will eventually decide not to. So in order for the union to survive and have power they have to force everyone to join, everyone to pay, and everyone submit to its system whether they like it or not. What I see in this union vote is that people didn’t want to give up their autonomy to someone else. I think anything that asks citizens to give up some kind of autonomy - especially now - is going to incite people negatively.
  - tarquinpussy 6y ago
    I love how libertarians come in with this kind of fairy story as if there aren't real world examples to look at. Here in England nobody forces you to join a union, it's still voluntary, and lots of people are members.
ipsocannibal 6y ago
Archive link: https://archive.is/DZZay https://archive.is/DZZay
redkoala 6y ago
Unions don’t always contribute to a better outcome for their workers, and it looks like working conditions wasn’t a strong enough driver for the majority of the workers. It’s hard to motivate a vote for unions when Amazon pays double the federal minimum wage.
- noobermin 6y ago
  Perhaps but this ignores the million+ dollar campaign Amazon leveraged to push people to vote no. It's not like it explains all the vote but it's definitely a component.
  - musingsole 6y ago
    I have little expectation that a propaganda campaign could meaningfully shift worker-voter perspectives for this specific vote. They're working off of the old propaganda over the past decades and their perspectives on the ground. The recent ads and such we're seeing are about the greater narrative and trying to set the stage for union-votes 5-10 years from now.
- _jal 6y ago
  > Unions don’t always contribute to a better outcome for their workers You can say this about anything. Getting a job doesn't always contribute to a better outcome for the unemployed. Getting healthcare doesn't always contribute to better health outcomes. Getting housing after being homeless doesn't always lead to a better life. > It’s hard to motivate a vote for unions when Amazon pays double the federal minimum wage. So many people repeating the same things over and over.
  - jimbob45 6y ago
    Yeah, but this is the problem with the current debate around unions. Pro-union individuals aren’t willing to say, “Unions have some serious drawbacks“ and anti-union individuals aren’t willing to say, “Unions solve some critical issues for modern employees”. Instead, both sides (rightfully) call each other out on their biases and no voter feels able to trust either side.
labatyd 6y ago
Incognito tab didn't work, googling it didnt work, and outline.com didn't work. Anyone have any other tips or tricks for finding the article to read it?
- Kelamir 6y ago
  https://archive.is/DZZay https://archive.is/DZZay
- josefresco 6y ago
  You can subscribe to WSJ digital for $467.88/year.
  - AzzieElbab 6y ago
    are you implying WSJ subscription prices are to blame for union's failure to recruit workers? :)
    - josefresco 6y ago
      You're joking but really, I'm just a curious guy who likes to look up pricing every time someone groans about paywalls. It seems the average is about $500/year which is (IMHO) insane unless it's your only paid news source.
      - AzzieElbab 6y ago
        I wonder if that is where we are heading when it comes to publications not driven by clicks
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    Let’s buy each of the workers a sub
- mariksolo 6y ago
  I have a Firefox extension called bypass paywalls.
sgift 6y ago
Next round is already called: "BREAKING: @RWDSU says that Amazon illegally interfered in the #BAmazonUnion vote in Bessemer, and the union will be filing unfair labor practice charges with the NLRB." https://twitter.com/GrimKim/status/1380541382490738690 https://twitter.com/GrimKim/status/1380541382490738690
- nemo44x 6y ago
  As is their right to do, but I’d think with such a massive drubbing they’ve taken here that they’d pack it up. More than a super majority of workers have rejected the unions attempt to infest their workplace with leftist, conflict politics. The only question now is how Amazon punishes the organizers and reward the dissenters.
- Kylekramer 6y ago
  You can't win the game, work the ref.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    It's fair to ask for the ref to review the play.
    - Kylekramer 6y ago
      Technically "fair", yes. When you lost by over 40 points, it is also pointless.
      - slantedview 6y ago
        Either the vote is tainted or it's not. This one was.
- tannhauser23 6y ago
  They do this every time they lose a unionization vote.
burnoutguru 6y ago
The 39% who voted yes should put their money where their mouth is and strike. This would be enough to bring that facility to its’ knees. The inevitable retalitory measurements they will get from management will make it to the courts with a shot of setting precedent. The high likelihood they will be treated with brutal violence by police, private security and right ring militias at the picket lines will gain public sympathy and create momentum for a nationwide, possibly international boycott of Amazon possibly a general strike in solidarity. This is how most unions were built.
snurfer 6y ago
The Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union hasn't always worked out for those workplaces that have brought them in.* In this instance, maybe unions aren't the solution to the "problem" or maybe the problem doesn't really exist? * https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Department_Store#rd-tab https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa...
- ivvve 6y ago
  You gotta be kidding me... this "Centre for Union Facts" is a 501(c) doesn't disclose it's donors. I'd bet dollars to donuts it's funded by businesses like Amazon and Walmart to do in their employees who want to collectively bargain. Probably a terribly biased source, for anyone who wants the real facts about unions.
  - upbeat_general 6y ago
    Correct. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Union_Facts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Union_Facts
  - snurfer 6y ago
    So, you're implying the 11 union decertification petitions in the link I provided are fake or something?
    - refenestrator 6y ago
      11 union decertifications since 2009 is 1 per year. That's fine, great, people should decertify their union if it's corrupt or their needs change or whatever. There's a separate point about 'unionfacts.com' with a bunch of anti-union stories on their website clearly being a propaganda op.
      - snurfer 6y ago
        I don't know anything about the "stories" you're referring to, but the website I linked to also provides data on the Retail, Wholesale, and Department Store Union's: 1. Basic info (including membership, which has significantly fallen in recent years) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Department_Store#basic-tab https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa... 2. Leaders and salaries (they seem to be well-paid) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Department_Store#leaders-tab https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa... 3. Crime and corruption (are they more/less corrupt than an average union?) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Department_Store#crime-tab https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa... ... And so on. If the data is incorrect, then there's reason to object to linking to the website. Is the data incorrect? Is there a "pro-union" website that provides/aggregates the same data?
zarkov99 6y ago
Good. I have lived in 3 continents and 4 different countries and I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent, ultimately to the ruin of all involved. I hear Germany cracked the code on that one, but in the US unions seem to be pretty much like everywhere.
- JarlUlvi 6y ago
  As a libertarian I am likely biased against the idea of unions due to having heard horror stories. However, all the public sector unions with whom I have collaborated have been rather excellent. Why? They were actually the voices of reason and efficiency when it came to IT change in the workplace. It seemed as though their raison d'etre was maximum effectiveness of employees, and removing impediments. Understanding this, they were able to advocate in a positive manner to represent the working engineer and scientist. Let's not paint all unions with a negative brush.
- vb6sp6 6y ago
  I have a few German customers and I also get the impression that their unions seem to work. It seems to be a result of multiple factors: 1. "Mitbestimmung" or co-determination. German workers elect the board of directors. 2. Labor reps vote alongside shareholders 3. Laborers in the same strata form "work councils" and choose reps to bring issues to managers or higher up the chain 4. "Betriebsverfassungsgesetz" federal laws giving workers the rights to form these work councils The people i've spoken too (anecdotal, I know) don't seem to have the same hostility to the unions. It is just kinda accepted and "normal" that the union is going to be there so they seem to work with them instead of fighting them at every step.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    VW TN was offered a works council deal and they still voted it down.
    - vb6sp6 6y ago
      Works council is kinda pointless without the other things
lvs 6y ago
Can't believe they pulled this off. Incredible.
- clydethefrog 6y ago
  Who is in "they" in this context? Are you painting Amazon as the David in this situation versus the Goliath of dying US labour organisation?
  - lvs 6y ago
    No. They is obviously Amazon, and I am expressing shock they were so successful in scamming their workers into voting against their own interests.
rmah 6y ago
Am I the only one who thinks $500/mo seems excessive for union dues? That's $60k/yr in dues for every 10 workers. Does a union really need a full time rep for every 10 or 20 members? If, perhaps, half of that goes to "strike insurance", that would mean $15k/member over 5 years. Which would be enough replace wages(at $15/hr) for six months. Do they really anticipate a six month strike every 5 years?
- pkulak 6y ago
  Holy crap, the dues were really that high? No wonder no one voted for it. EDIT: $500/year, apparently
- judge2020 6y ago
  Holy, that is probably the sole reason for a majority of the 'no' votes. You're talking a job that pays as little as $15 an hour, so 500/mo is nearly a week's pay (~33 hours).
  - GavinMcG 6y ago
    Which is a good reason to be a little skeptical. The amount is off by an order of magnitude.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      Ah, the WSJ paywall cuts off before the due amounts are stated (if they even are mentioned).
- freewilly1040 6y ago
  It’s 500 per year not per month Edit to add source https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/early-vote-counts-show-amazon-warehouse-workers-not-likely-unionize-n1263558 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/early-vote-counts-sho...
  - y-c-o-m-b 6y ago
    Note how that's still coming directly from Amazon's propaganda arm as "an estimate" and not anything official...
typon 6y ago
The assault against unions for the past 50 years in America meant that there was only one likely outcome of this vote. Amazon is a powerful entity and they used their might to suppress this vote and it worked.
aarongray 6y ago
Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.
- fartcannon 6y ago
  What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments
  - afiori 6y ago
    Yang had a nice plan for that :(
    - mixedCase 6y ago
      And no sustainable way to fund it.
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        I don't get how people keep saying this. A UBI is effectively a tax credit. You fund it with higher nominal rates. These mostly cancel out for working people, netting to zero in the middle. People at the top pay on net so that people at the bottom receive on net. It's completely sustainable and is effectively just a simplification and improvement of the status quo of having unemployment insurance and a bunch of means-tested benefits for low income people, but without the poverty traps, perverse incentives and excessive bureaucracy.
        brippalcharrid 6y ago
        Are you sure this is realistic, or would it end up being a net negative for people earning above $20k-$25k? There are a lot of people who are opting out of paid employment, one way or another, under the current model.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Someone1234 6y ago
HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from? If it is grapevine, what was the original source?
- legohead 6y ago
  I was part of a small union. I joined the bargaining committee, and ever since I have hated unions. It was incredibly stressful, and made me hate my job. Fighting for better wages/vacation with upper management, who showed how much they don't care about you, is very disheartening. And in the end, all the bargaining didn't really get us any better than what we would have gotten without a union. So now I got a little raise and I hate my company and I'm telling everyone else how shitty the company is.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- saas_sam 6y ago
  My anti-union sentiment arrived from my experience working with a large established union in an industrial plant. The union protected some of the worst, laziest, most unsafe workers I had ever witnessed in any job before or sense. It blew my mind how difficult it was to remove obvious bad apples, and how the best workers were forced to wait in years-long "seniority" queues before they could get promoted. I would get threatened with grievances for trivial acts like carrying a single lightbulb myself without a union worker. Every institution has a STATED purpose and an ACTUAL effect. Institutions become inefficient, corrupt, decoupled from their original goals. What keeps institutions aligned with their stated--noble--purpose, is the institution's internal incentive structure. Unions often have very bad internal incentive structures. I would be SHOCKED if you could not find counter-examples where unions are great. It's a big round world we live on where silver linings abound. For anything. To me, right now, I do not find pro-union activists persuasive in the slightest. But I am open-minded.
cr1pablo 6y ago
Why are people in America against unionizing? In Spain and I think in Europe it's pretty normal, most people do it.
- pclmulqdq 6y ago
  Unions in the EU have very different rules than unions in the US. In particular, American unions can essentially force an employer to become a "closed shop" through a majority vote. Everyone who works there then has to pay union dues and accept a union contract. EU unions involve more worker choice.
  - GavinMcG 6y ago
    That's simply not true in Alabama and many other states, which legally prohibit closed shops.
- asdff 6y ago
  People in America have been subjected to nearly 100 years of very successful anti union propaganda. They used to be very strong, but have since been eroded and vilified by capital.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
  In Poland it's not normal outside of some industries, and the unions there can be a mixed bag (old people from Solidarność being detached from reality for example).
petermcneeley 6y ago
A much more HN relevant question would be to ask how this decision might impact the future automation of work for these very same employees.
JCM9 6y ago
It was clear getting these workers to unionize was good for the union... it was much less clear why it would be good for the workers. People can say what they want about Amazon but the reality is they provide a far better job, wage, and benefits than most. Apart from the broad sweeping messaging around corporations = bad, unions = the answer, it wasn’t really clear at all why a union would benefit workers here. As such the result isn’t terribly surprising. The result isn’t even close.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Collective bargaining lets the employees push back against issues that would otherwise risk their career. For example, an individual speaking up against horrible working conditions, metric-focused managers, and ignorance of unsafe practices would risk getting fired, so the issues would persist. A union would have the leverage required to push back against such issues.
  - zndr 6y ago
    While you're correct, Amazon is so large that this single center being nuked from their org chart would have been an inconvenience. I think it's very easy for us to say "this would help you" but the reality is, it might have drawn a line in the sand, at the cost of every single employee's job.
    - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
      They're already facing anticompetitive scrutiny. Retaliation would have tipped the political scales.
      - hbosch 6y ago
        When is the last time busting a union brought any additional scrutiny from the US government, in a material sense? While there are some stories lately about how much tax Amazon pays, the government is very much in the business of keeping Amazon (and all major US-based corporations and firms) happy... by contrast, the US government almost certainly cares very little for a warehouse worker in Alabama.
AndrewDucker 6y ago
How often can these votes take place? Because I'd expect support to rise next time something Amazon does annoys its employees.
hnunionthrow 6y ago
Thank god and whoever else for this. This is amazing. I realize and understand a segment of HN readers are sympathetic to unions(the American version too), and some are vocal advocates as well, but I am absolutely elated at this outcome. Edit: Question: Can this vote also be taken as a proxy indicator of the working conditions not being anywhere close to what the sensational and click-bait media pieces point out to be?
- clydethefrog 6y ago
  The piss bottles and bags to poop in weren't click-bait. This is based on leaked documents. https://theintercept.com/2021/03/25/amazon-drivers-pee-bottles-union/ https://theintercept.com/2021/03/25/amazon-drivers-pee-bottl...
  - hnunionthrow 6y ago
    Sure. But this is not specific to Amazon. Most media pieces around this made it sound like Amazon drivers' are exclusive to this experience. A lot of people working in the transportation industry do this and it is not very hard to imagine why they would do this. Just one example: https://www.quora.com/Do-truck-drivers-ever-actually-use-piss-jugs https://www.quora.com/Do-truck-drivers-ever-actually-use-pis... You can find several other articles, and also speak to actual drivers and they will also explain why do they do this.
    - Dirlewanger 6y ago
      We know it's you, Amazon's PR firm, behind that throwaway account.
- lexs 6y ago
  Especially in that region, I would take this vote rather as an indicator of the lack of alternatives. Amazon is so large that they could simply scrap that location without being that bothered, yet the workers do not have that freedom. The choice is between taking what you can get even if it is tied to bad working conditions or having nothing at all.
neonate 6y ago
https://archive.is/V0bXB https://archive.is/V0bXB
marshmallow_12 6y ago
The workers exploited by Amazon will have my utmost sympathy and support. Up until they make a decision that's not in accordance with what i, the great armchair warrior, decide is good for them. Rejecting my unsolicited advice, means they are ungrateful fools unworthy of my elevated consideration. All of that went through my head the moment i read the headline. I'm surprised at how intolerant i really am. But with second thoughts, these workers had a choice, they made it. Who am i to say that they are wrong.
asdff 6y ago
Conservative Alabamans fleeced into voting against their own self interests time again? I'm shocked. In all serious, the political theater espoused on these people has eroded their critical thinking, and this will come back to haunt us when there comes a time for serious leadership in the face of a changing climate, and all we have at the helm are grifters protected by their blind sheep majorities.
- musingsole 6y ago
  Internet commenter convinced they know someone's interests better than that person? I'm shocked. People aren't dumb. Assuming you know better for people is.
- mariksolo 6y ago
  What a pretentious thing to say. Maybe your critical thinking is eroded if you refuse to try to understand why people would vote against a union. I'm not saying you have to agree with their decision, but it's ridiculous to assume everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. Are you an Amazon employee at Bessemer? I'm pretty sure any employee there is more qualified to make a decision about their own lives than you.
- sb057 6y ago
  >Conservative Alabamans Bessemer voted about 5:1 in favor of Biden in the 2020 election. https://www.sos.alabama.gov/sites/default/files/election-data/2020-12/2020%20General%20Precinct%20Results.zip https://www.sos.alabama.gov/sites/default/files/election-dat...
tptacek 6y ago
Here's an interesting and surprising analysis from a labor organizer and writer (you'll need to follow the back-and-forth of the comments a bit): https://twitter.com/yeselson/status/1380363511709196288 https://twitter.com/yeselson/status/1380363511709196288 The short version is: while the Bessemer campaign was a good thing, the vote (according to this person --- everything I'm writing here is according to Yeselson and subject to errors in my understanding) was not. To wit: if a skilled organizer effort isn't sure it's going to win, they pull the vote, reorganize, and try again when they're sure they will. There's further evidence in the threads that nuts-and-bolts organizing, "101 stuff" to use the term I got from labor organizing blogs following up on this, wasn't done; that in fact the worker opponents to unionization were only weakly opposed, and under-educated. Another fun Google search that I found from this thread: [union "hot shop"].
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  It seems to me like losing 70/30 is a sign that they picked the wrong battle.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    Yes, that's what he's saying. You campaign until you're sure it's going to go the other way, 30/70, and then you call for a vote.
KingOfCoders 6y ago
I remember going to the unions xmas party with my dad when I was a kid.
- KingOfCoders 6y ago
  Sorry to the guy who didn't go to a unions xmas party with his dad and felt to downvote my comment - I feel for you.
ausbah 6y ago
there are valid points against unions, but when the balance of power in this country politically and economically is sooooo slanted towards the capital and those with wealth - I don't find any anti-union argument remotely compelling if the balance of power was more evenly divided maybe, but unions are almost non-existent and government regulations don't favor labor - that making such arguments feels naive to the reality of the situation
ur-whale 6y ago
https://archive.is/V0bXB https://archive.is/V0bXB
intrasight 6y ago
If (when) we have firing decisions made by AI, and anyone - including senior managers and founders can be fired, I'll be those folk would (will) take a difference stance on unions.
mimikatz 6y ago
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-union-vote-why-some-workers-voted-against-unionizing-alabama-2021-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-union-vote-why-some-w... has some interviews with actual workers
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I think this will fail until they try to unionize is a more prosperous state like Virginia, California, New York state.
zenron 6y ago
Why are people in comments treating Bessemer as small town America. It is a part of the greater Birmingham area and Job opportunities abound. It’s 10 or 15 minutes from Healthcare/Banking center clad Birmingham. If you can stomach the crime between Bessemer and parts of Hueytown, you can make an absolute boat load of money. I live like 15 minutes from Bessemer myself and have had to go there or through there many times.
- sb057 6y ago
  >It’s 10 or 15 minutes from Healthcare/Banking center clad Birmingham. Notoriously easy industries for the working class poor to get into.
diogenescynic 6y ago
Whip me harder said the good slaves.
gtsop 6y ago
Ah, the union vs anti-union discussion again. Seriously we should TDD our way out of this discussion. There are clearly some union policies that work and some others that don't. Can't we work out just the beneficial ones and enforce them as a baseline while discarding the bad ones? Print that as a standard and boom! You've got a compliance measure to rank unions :)
paxys 6y ago
"Here's exactly how these people should have voted" – legions of San Francisco software engineers making $550K/yr convinced that they know everything about the lives of warehouse workers in Bessemer, Alabama making $15/hr.
- seriousquestion 6y ago
  That sums it up. "I know better than those people", posted a thousand miles away via the latest iPhone, while binging Netflix and waiting for their 2nd Amazon delivery of the day.
- alea_iacta_est 6y ago
  > legions of San Francisco software engineers making $550K/yr convinced that they know everything about <insert subject here> HN in a nutshell.
- falcor84 6y ago
  Just to make the comparison easier for people like myself, at 40h/week and 52weeks/yr, that would amount to $264/hr, and a slightly more humble $150K/yr is $72/hr
- dev_tty01 6y ago
  Yes. Incredible arrogance and clearly insinuates that the people of Bessemer are unable to think for themselves. 71% said no. That is a very clear majority. I think we need to trust the people on the front line with the discernment to make their own decisions. I've been around a lot of people without much formal education who were much wiser than most. And please don't yell about Amazon misrepresenting things. I suspect these people are quite capable of detecting company BS. Give them some credit. Just because you don't agree with their choice doesn't mean their choice is wrong.
  - postpawl 6y ago
    Just “misrepresenting things”? Amazon did everything they could to crush the effort. “The retail workers union said Amazon was trying to surveil employees in Bessemer and even changed a traffic signal to prevent organizers from approaching warehouse workers as they left the site. Last month, the New York attorney general said in a lawsuit that Amazon had retaliated against employees who tried to protest its pandemic safety measures as inadequate.” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/16/technology/amazon-unions-virginia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/16/technology/amazon-unions-...
fukmbas 6y ago
What a bunch of idiots lol. If only they knew UPS drivers make over $40/hr not counting overtime. Amazing health care benefits etc. Why? Because they have a union. Meanwhile these Amazon drivers seem to think their $15/hr is plenty.
Animats 6y ago
Wasn't even close. NLRB official results: [1] [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-announces-results-in-amazon-election https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-announces...
one2three4 6y ago
I'm sure there was not a hint of intimidation from the company...
Ericson2314 6y ago
See https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/bessemer-alabama-amazon-union/ https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/bessemer-alabama-... for a pretty damning take. I just kinda wish it had been published beforehand a bit, so it doesn't seem like hindsight dunk.
CryptoPunk 6y ago
Given unionization is associated with enterprise decline, this was a sound vote.
torstenvl 6y ago
Gotta stay ionized.
itisit 6y ago
This is a win for both sides. Unions, more often than not, blow. I wish this apoplexy was around when Walmart was king.
fortran77 6y ago
Reading commentary on left-leaning sites, I'm amused at the people don't accept the worker's vote as "legitimate." They either think it was rigged somehow--some vast compspiracy regarding mailboxes(!)--or that workers are too naïve to know what's right for them. (For example: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/4/9/2025040/-Amazon-reached-out-to-USPS-to-get-private-mailbox-installed-ahead-of-union-vote-emails-show https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/4/9/2025040/-Amazon-re... ) This reaction seems familiar, doesn't it?
SuperSandro2000 6y ago
Most of the work policies we have are the outcome of unions and left politics. If you yote against them you are voting in the interest of your employer which does not care about you, a replaceable warehouse worker, at all. If you have psychological issues because of stress at work and your back is damaged for your lifetime you are just replaced with someone else.

566 points by cwwc 6y ago

That's pretty overwhelming too, 71% No. It would be interesting to hear from them why. I think we all have opinions (I certainly do). But I've never worked at amazon so my opinion is low value...

Waterluvian 6y ago
I'm curious if it's the same reason I put up with !@#$ earlier in my career: I don't have the luxury of taking risks and I'm just really not interested in upsetting my employer. You tell me there's a better world on the other side of the hill, but I'm just trying to keep my children from starving this month. I can't even begin to think about the uncertainty and risk of trying to get there. Some commentary: I think this is one reason why social safety nets are tremendously valuable. The reason I eventually took the risk was because being without a job was not a potential death sentence. I would have unemployment insurance for a while and universal healthcare would take care of my kids if they had sudden needs.
- nanna 6y ago
  In other countries not hiring someone because of their union affiliation is flat out illegal. (Thanks to union and political struggles to protect collective bargaining as a right)
  - EarlKing 6y ago
    A lot of things are illegal in life ... but lawsuits take time and money most people don't have.
  - danielrpa 6y ago
    In the US many would argue that it's not collective bargaining if you are making the employer accept an union; it's putting a gun to the employer's head in the negotiations. Employers are people too! And an employer could be a small to medium company that is barely surviving against overseas competition. I understand others would say that the employer is more powerful to begin with and thus it's just a way to balance things. And without that, workers would be exploited and society would be worse off. The reason I'm writing this is that there are two sides of this discussion with pretty good arguments. So just because other countries think differently, it doesn't mean that they are doing the right thing.
    - friedman23 6y ago
      Modern morality is very simple Majority is more important than the minority. Poor is better than rich. Dumb is better than smart.
  - raisedbyninjas 6y ago
    Alabama is an at will employment state. Amazon doesn't need to provide any reason for employment termination. If this warehouse unionizes, Amazon may choose to relocate their warehouse. This is in a suburb of Birmingham, population over a million. So the workers probably aren't unusually desperate for work.
- josefresco 6y ago
  > I'm just really not interested in upsetting my employer. This is the purpose of a union! Because you band together, the employer can't punish you individually. Sure they might be able to fire/replace everyone, but without a union they could target you specifically and there would be no leverage or help.
tyingq 6y ago
My guess is the messaging about dues. Lots of people focused on the short term hit to their paychecks. Most of the stories reference $500/month. That does seem high. Data I can find for other unions shows somewhere between 1 to 4 percent of gross pay as typical for union dues. Assuming $15/hour, 4 percent of gross pay would be $144/month. But, if $500/month is accurate, it's 13.8% of gross pay for $15/hour workers, and 10.4% of gross for $20/hour workers. That's very high. Edit: $500/year. There were many news stories with the inaccurate $500/month quote.
- bena 6y ago
  That short term hit can have long term consequences. If I'm scraping by already, I'm not looking forward to taking another hit to an already stretched paycheck.
  - tyingq 6y ago
    It does seem like the union missed an opportunity here. They should have offered some ramp up, or reconsidered the $500/month. If that's indeed accurate, it's 13.8% of gross pay for $15/hour workers, and 10.4% of gross for $20/hour workers. That seems really high. Edit: It's apparently $500/year, see other posts though, many news stories did post $500/month.
  - sitkack 6y ago
    If that is indeed the primary motivator, that folks are literally getting paid so little that they can't afford the union dues then two things should happen The union should wave union dues until wages rise and ??? This seems not unlike Walmart informing employees that it is paying them so little that they qualify for Food Stamps. Looking forward to the Amazon paper, "Pareto Optimal Employee Compensation for Maintaining Fluid Labor Markets"
    - shagie 6y ago
      Alabama is a right to work state. No one has to pay dues. https://www.justia.com/employment/unions/right-to-work-and-union-dues/ https://www.justia.com/employment/unions/right-to-work-and-u... > A union is an exclusive collective bargaining agent, which means that it must fairly represent all of the workers in the bargaining unit, including those who have decided not to be members or pay dues.
rshm 6y ago
I would guess, fear of retribution from amazon. If the voting was nationwide it could have lowered the fear that amazon could treat one location better in things like expansion.
oramit 6y ago
Yeah I can think of lots of reasons for this loss. 1. It's always harder to get people to vote to change the status quo. Even if people think the change is going to be good, people are usually risk averse so you need to work harder to change things vs stay the same. 2. Their general opinion about unions is poor. 3. Their specific opinion about this union and the unionization effort is poor. 4. Dues were too high vs benefits. 5. Worry about retaliation from Amazon. 6. I imagine a lot of people don't really think of their Amazon warehouse job as a career. Most people working there probably only plan to do it for a few years, in which case the value of union membership falls dramatically. Just some ideas.

kadomony 6y ago

Why would vote against your own benefit? It's astounding that these people are happy to be exploited.

chrisseaton 6y ago
> Why would vote against your own benefit? I guess they disagree with you on what the benefits are? If the goal of the vote was to give these workers a voice then... I guess mission accomplished. You can't reasonably then say you don't like what they say with their voice!
_-david-_ 6y ago
Calling people stupid is a great way to get them to agree with you.
- kadomony 6y ago
  Fair remark, and I edited the comment. It just pisses me off that capitalism has worked so well in brainwashing poverty-line workers to think that they should never organize, think to revolt, or ask for what they're actually due. It saddens me that some people won't know what they don't know and will be the perfect pawns to exploit for near slave wages because "progressive ideas bad, America great".
  - prepend 6y ago
    > poverty-line workers This vote wasn’t by poverty-line workers. The poverty line in Alabama for a family of 4 is $26k. [0] So even if the worker in Bessemer is a single parent they are above the line. And if they are part of a two income household then they are above the median income of $51k. [1] It’s interesting to me how people generalize incorrectly without considering the local situation of people impacted. Clearly incorrect statements like yours should be adjusted to have greater impact. The whole country doesn’t have the income and expense characteristics of where I live. [0] https://talkpoverty.org/state-year-report/alabama-2020-report/ https://talkpoverty.org/state-year-report/alabama-2020-repor... [1] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/AL/BZA210218 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/AL/BZA210218

nanna 6y ago

I'm confused, why did they need a vote to start a union? Here in the UK pretty sure if a load of workers want to start a union, they can - irrespective of whether they're in the majority or not. Sounds to me like the circumscription of a need for a majority itself comes from anti-union legislation.

chrisseaton 6y ago
The vote was to unionise the workplace, not to form a union. You can form a union whenever you want, like you can form any other group of people a club. You just can't unilaterally force an employer to deal with you.
- tarquinpussy 6y ago
  I hate to say it but I think the UK system is better. No closed shops, but if enough of the workplace (50%?) join the union, the employer has to deal with them.
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
    > but if enough of the workplace (50%?) join the union, the employer has to deal with them. Fewer than 50% of employees voted to form a union, so the result isn't really any different.
  - didgeoridoo 6y ago
    Is that meaningfully different from a vote, then? You get the majority, you get the union. If you’re a recognized union, NLRB says the employer must deal with you.
    - tarquinpussy 6y ago
      Well it's not meaningfully different from a vote in that it forces the employer to deal. But it does mean that there are no closed shops, so nobody is forced to join a union just to work in a certain place.

Loughla 6y ago

I absolutely do not understand why you would vote against your own collective interest for a small amount of union dues. That is not snark, it's a real statement. I legitimately do not understand it. Can someone who works/worked one of these jobs please explain it to me? I am so confused by how lopsided this was.

trackmenot 6y ago
My theory is that rich people and well-educated people vote according to self-interest, but poor and non-educated people according to identity. Billionaires votes for whoever lowers their taxes, academics for whoever secures them, often tax-funded, jobs, but poor people for whoever they like personally. I'm positive that education was strongly correlated with voting in favor of unionization. This is something the left everywhere struggles with enormously. When poor people are too dumb to vote according to their own self-interest, the left's worldview falls down. The left then claims that poor people are brainwashed by capitalist propaganda. Yeah, maybe, but it can't explain completely disastrous results like this unionization vote. Misguided people will claim that unionization is not in the self-interest of most workers. Those people are wrong as there are about a billion studies showing that unionization improves both salaries and working conditions. For example: https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/ https://www.epi.org/publication/briefingpapers_bp143/ The science is incredibly clear-cut and these workers who voted against unionization voted against their own self-interest.
- wavefunction 6y ago
  Poor people vote in their own interest just like anyone else but their options are limited and often the opportunity to consider all their options is truncated by the vagaries of life on the edge of dissolution.
gruez 6y ago
From an earlier thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26749927 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26749927
brighton36 6y ago

delecti 6y ago

So, leaving aside why someone would or would not want to join a union, why is this a majority vote? If 49% of a workforce wants to unionize, why can't they?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
moioci 6y ago
Not a lawyer or organized labor person, but a favorable vote would turn the warehouse into a "union shop," where the union negotiates on behalf of everyone, member or not, with regard to wages and working conditions and collects dues from everyone, member or not. In my very limited experience, the union offers some benefit like vision coverage to encourage people to join.
- didgeoridoo 6y ago
  Mostly correct, although Alabama is a “right to work” state which means you cannot be forced to join a union in order to take a job. You may be compelled to pay “agency fees” which are generally lower than full membership dues, though.
underseacables 6y ago
Without force the unions can’t exist. It’s like a lot of things with government involvement: Unless you are forced to do it, many people, especially if money is involved, will eventually decide not to. So in order for the union to survive and have power they have to force everyone to join, everyone to pay, and everyone submit to its system whether they like it or not. What I see in this union vote is that people didn’t want to give up their autonomy to someone else. I think anything that asks citizens to give up some kind of autonomy - especially now - is going to incite people negatively.
- tarquinpussy 6y ago
  I love how libertarians come in with this kind of fairy story as if there aren't real world examples to look at. Here in England nobody forces you to join a union, it's still voluntary, and lots of people are members.

ipsocannibal 6y ago

Archive link: https://archive.is/DZZay https://archive.is/DZZay

redkoala 6y ago

Unions don’t always contribute to a better outcome for their workers, and it looks like working conditions wasn’t a strong enough driver for the majority of the workers. It’s hard to motivate a vote for unions when Amazon pays double the federal minimum wage.

noobermin 6y ago
Perhaps but this ignores the million+ dollar campaign Amazon leveraged to push people to vote no. It's not like it explains all the vote but it's definitely a component.
- musingsole 6y ago
  I have little expectation that a propaganda campaign could meaningfully shift worker-voter perspectives for this specific vote. They're working off of the old propaganda over the past decades and their perspectives on the ground. The recent ads and such we're seeing are about the greater narrative and trying to set the stage for union-votes 5-10 years from now.
_jal 6y ago
> Unions don’t always contribute to a better outcome for their workers You can say this about anything. Getting a job doesn't always contribute to a better outcome for the unemployed. Getting healthcare doesn't always contribute to better health outcomes. Getting housing after being homeless doesn't always lead to a better life. > It’s hard to motivate a vote for unions when Amazon pays double the federal minimum wage. So many people repeating the same things over and over.
- jimbob45 6y ago
  Yeah, but this is the problem with the current debate around unions. Pro-union individuals aren’t willing to say, “Unions have some serious drawbacks“ and anti-union individuals aren’t willing to say, “Unions solve some critical issues for modern employees”. Instead, both sides (rightfully) call each other out on their biases and no voter feels able to trust either side.

labatyd 6y ago

Incognito tab didn't work, googling it didnt work, and outline.com didn't work. Anyone have any other tips or tricks for finding the article to read it?

Kelamir 6y ago
https://archive.is/DZZay https://archive.is/DZZay
josefresco 6y ago
You can subscribe to WSJ digital for $467.88/year.
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  are you implying WSJ subscription prices are to blame for union's failure to recruit workers? :)
  - josefresco 6y ago
    You're joking but really, I'm just a curious guy who likes to look up pricing every time someone groans about paywalls. It seems the average is about $500/year which is (IMHO) insane unless it's your only paid news source.
    - AzzieElbab 6y ago
      I wonder if that is where we are heading when it comes to publications not driven by clicks
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  Let’s buy each of the workers a sub
mariksolo 6y ago
I have a Firefox extension called bypass paywalls.

sgift 6y ago

Next round is already called: "BREAKING: @RWDSU says that Amazon illegally interfered in the #BAmazonUnion vote in Bessemer, and the union will be filing unfair labor practice charges with the NLRB." https://twitter.com/GrimKim/status/1380541382490738690 https://twitter.com/GrimKim/status/1380541382490738690

nemo44x 6y ago
As is their right to do, but I’d think with such a massive drubbing they’ve taken here that they’d pack it up. More than a super majority of workers have rejected the unions attempt to infest their workplace with leftist, conflict politics. The only question now is how Amazon punishes the organizers and reward the dissenters.
Kylekramer 6y ago
You can't win the game, work the ref.
- judge2020 6y ago
  It's fair to ask for the ref to review the play.
  - Kylekramer 6y ago
    Technically "fair", yes. When you lost by over 40 points, it is also pointless.
    - slantedview 6y ago
      Either the vote is tainted or it's not. This one was.
tannhauser23 6y ago
They do this every time they lose a unionization vote.

burnoutguru 6y ago

The 39% who voted yes should put their money where their mouth is and strike. This would be enough to bring that facility to its’ knees. The inevitable retalitory measurements they will get from management will make it to the courts with a shot of setting precedent. The high likelihood they will be treated with brutal violence by police, private security and right ring militias at the picket lines will gain public sympathy and create momentum for a nationwide, possibly international boycott of Amazon possibly a general strike in solidarity. This is how most unions were built.

snurfer 6y ago

The Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union hasn't always worked out for those workplaces that have brought them in.* In this instance, maybe unions aren't the solution to the "problem" or maybe the problem doesn't really exist? * https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Department_Store#rd-tab https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa...

ivvve 6y ago
You gotta be kidding me... this "Centre for Union Facts" is a 501(c) doesn't disclose it's donors. I'd bet dollars to donuts it's funded by businesses like Amazon and Walmart to do in their employees who want to collectively bargain. Probably a terribly biased source, for anyone who wants the real facts about unions.
- upbeat_general 6y ago
  Correct. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Union_Facts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Union_Facts
- snurfer 6y ago
  So, you're implying the 11 union decertification petitions in the link I provided are fake or something?
  - refenestrator 6y ago
    11 union decertifications since 2009 is 1 per year. That's fine, great, people should decertify their union if it's corrupt or their needs change or whatever. There's a separate point about 'unionfacts.com' with a bunch of anti-union stories on their website clearly being a propaganda op.
    - snurfer 6y ago
      I don't know anything about the "stories" you're referring to, but the website I linked to also provides data on the Retail, Wholesale, and Department Store Union's: 1. Basic info (including membership, which has significantly fallen in recent years) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Department_Store#basic-tab https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa... 2. Leaders and salaries (they seem to be well-paid) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Department_Store#leaders-tab https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa... 3. Crime and corruption (are they more/less corrupt than an average union?) -- https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Department_Store#crime-tab https://www.unionfacts.com/union/Retail,_Wholesale,_and_Depa... ... And so on. If the data is incorrect, then there's reason to object to linking to the website. Is the data incorrect? Is there a "pro-union" website that provides/aggregates the same data?

zarkov99 6y ago

Good. I have lived in 3 continents and 4 different countries and I have yet to see a union that is not run by and for the lazy and incompetent, ultimately to the ruin of all involved. I hear Germany cracked the code on that one, but in the US unions seem to be pretty much like everywhere.

JarlUlvi 6y ago
As a libertarian I am likely biased against the idea of unions due to having heard horror stories. However, all the public sector unions with whom I have collaborated have been rather excellent. Why? They were actually the voices of reason and efficiency when it came to IT change in the workplace. It seemed as though their raison d'etre was maximum effectiveness of employees, and removing impediments. Understanding this, they were able to advocate in a positive manner to represent the working engineer and scientist. Let's not paint all unions with a negative brush.
vb6sp6 6y ago
I have a few German customers and I also get the impression that their unions seem to work. It seems to be a result of multiple factors: 1. "Mitbestimmung" or co-determination. German workers elect the board of directors. 2. Labor reps vote alongside shareholders 3. Laborers in the same strata form "work councils" and choose reps to bring issues to managers or higher up the chain 4. "Betriebsverfassungsgesetz" federal laws giving workers the rights to form these work councils The people i've spoken too (anecdotal, I know) don't seem to have the same hostility to the unions. It is just kinda accepted and "normal" that the union is going to be there so they seem to work with them instead of fighting them at every step.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  VW TN was offered a works council deal and they still voted it down.
  - vb6sp6 6y ago
    Works council is kinda pointless without the other things

lvs 6y ago

Can't believe they pulled this off. Incredible.

clydethefrog 6y ago
Who is in "they" in this context? Are you painting Amazon as the David in this situation versus the Goliath of dying US labour organisation?
- lvs 6y ago
  No. They is obviously Amazon, and I am expressing shock they were so successful in scamming their workers into voting against their own interests.

rmah 6y ago

Am I the only one who thinks $500/mo seems excessive for union dues? That's $60k/yr in dues for every 10 workers. Does a union really need a full time rep for every 10 or 20 members? If, perhaps, half of that goes to "strike insurance", that would mean $15k/member over 5 years. Which would be enough replace wages(at $15/hr) for six months. Do they really anticipate a six month strike every 5 years?

pkulak 6y ago
Holy crap, the dues were really that high? No wonder no one voted for it. EDIT: $500/year, apparently
judge2020 6y ago
Holy, that is probably the sole reason for a majority of the 'no' votes. You're talking a job that pays as little as $15 an hour, so 500/mo is nearly a week's pay (~33 hours).
- GavinMcG 6y ago
  Which is a good reason to be a little skeptical. The amount is off by an order of magnitude.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    Ah, the WSJ paywall cuts off before the due amounts are stated (if they even are mentioned).
freewilly1040 6y ago
It’s 500 per year not per month Edit to add source https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/early-vote-counts-show-amazon-warehouse-workers-not-likely-unionize-n1263558 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/early-vote-counts-sho...
- y-c-o-m-b 6y ago
  Note how that's still coming directly from Amazon's propaganda arm as "an estimate" and not anything official...

typon 6y ago

The assault against unions for the past 50 years in America meant that there was only one likely outcome of this vote. Amazon is a powerful entity and they used their might to suppress this vote and it worked.

aarongray 6y ago

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

fartcannon 6y ago
What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments
- afiori 6y ago
  Yang had a nice plan for that :(
  - mixedCase 6y ago
    And no sustainable way to fund it.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      I don't get how people keep saying this. A UBI is effectively a tax credit. You fund it with higher nominal rates. These mostly cancel out for working people, netting to zero in the middle. People at the top pay on net so that people at the bottom receive on net. It's completely sustainable and is effectively just a simplification and improvement of the status quo of having unemployment insurance and a bunch of means-tested benefits for low income people, but without the poverty traps, perverse incentives and excessive bureaucracy.
      - brippalcharrid 6y ago
        Are you sure this is realistic, or would it end up being a net negative for people earning above $20k-$25k? There are a lot of people who are opting out of paid employment, one way or another, under the current model.

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Someone1234 6y ago

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from? If it is grapevine, what was the original source?

legohead 6y ago
I was part of a small union. I joined the bargaining committee, and ever since I have hated unions. It was incredibly stressful, and made me hate my job. Fighting for better wages/vacation with upper management, who showed how much they don't care about you, is very disheartening. And in the end, all the bargaining didn't really get us any better than what we would have gotten without a union. So now I got a little raise and I hate my company and I'm telling everyone else how shitty the company is.
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saas_sam 6y ago
My anti-union sentiment arrived from my experience working with a large established union in an industrial plant. The union protected some of the worst, laziest, most unsafe workers I had ever witnessed in any job before or sense. It blew my mind how difficult it was to remove obvious bad apples, and how the best workers were forced to wait in years-long "seniority" queues before they could get promoted. I would get threatened with grievances for trivial acts like carrying a single lightbulb myself without a union worker. Every institution has a STATED purpose and an ACTUAL effect. Institutions become inefficient, corrupt, decoupled from their original goals. What keeps institutions aligned with their stated--noble--purpose, is the institution's internal incentive structure. Unions often have very bad internal incentive structures. I would be SHOCKED if you could not find counter-examples where unions are great. It's a big round world we live on where silver linings abound. For anything. To me, right now, I do not find pro-union activists persuasive in the slightest. But I am open-minded.

cr1pablo 6y ago

Why are people in America against unionizing? In Spain and I think in Europe it's pretty normal, most people do it.

pclmulqdq 6y ago
Unions in the EU have very different rules than unions in the US. In particular, American unions can essentially force an employer to become a "closed shop" through a majority vote. Everyone who works there then has to pay union dues and accept a union contract. EU unions involve more worker choice.
- GavinMcG 6y ago
  That's simply not true in Alabama and many other states, which legally prohibit closed shops.
asdff 6y ago
People in America have been subjected to nearly 100 years of very successful anti union propaganda. They used to be very strong, but have since been eroded and vilified by capital.
isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
In Poland it's not normal outside of some industries, and the unions there can be a mixed bag (old people from Solidarność being detached from reality for example).

petermcneeley 6y ago

A much more HN relevant question would be to ask how this decision might impact the future automation of work for these very same employees.

JCM9 6y ago

It was clear getting these workers to unionize was good for the union... it was much less clear why it would be good for the workers. People can say what they want about Amazon but the reality is they provide a far better job, wage, and benefits than most. Apart from the broad sweeping messaging around corporations = bad, unions = the answer, it wasn’t really clear at all why a union would benefit workers here. As such the result isn’t terribly surprising. The result isn’t even close.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
Collective bargaining lets the employees push back against issues that would otherwise risk their career. For example, an individual speaking up against horrible working conditions, metric-focused managers, and ignorance of unsafe practices would risk getting fired, so the issues would persist. A union would have the leverage required to push back against such issues.
- zndr 6y ago
  While you're correct, Amazon is so large that this single center being nuked from their org chart would have been an inconvenience. I think it's very easy for us to say "this would help you" but the reality is, it might have drawn a line in the sand, at the cost of every single employee's job.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    They're already facing anticompetitive scrutiny. Retaliation would have tipped the political scales.
    - hbosch 6y ago
      When is the last time busting a union brought any additional scrutiny from the US government, in a material sense? While there are some stories lately about how much tax Amazon pays, the government is very much in the business of keeping Amazon (and all major US-based corporations and firms) happy... by contrast, the US government almost certainly cares very little for a warehouse worker in Alabama.

AndrewDucker 6y ago

How often can these votes take place? Because I'd expect support to rise next time something Amazon does annoys its employees.

hnunionthrow 6y ago

Thank god and whoever else for this. This is amazing. I realize and understand a segment of HN readers are sympathetic to unions(the American version too), and some are vocal advocates as well, but I am absolutely elated at this outcome. Edit: Question: Can this vote also be taken as a proxy indicator of the working conditions not being anywhere close to what the sensational and click-bait media pieces point out to be?

clydethefrog 6y ago
The piss bottles and bags to poop in weren't click-bait. This is based on leaked documents. https://theintercept.com/2021/03/25/amazon-drivers-pee-bottles-union/ https://theintercept.com/2021/03/25/amazon-drivers-pee-bottl...
- hnunionthrow 6y ago
  Sure. But this is not specific to Amazon. Most media pieces around this made it sound like Amazon drivers' are exclusive to this experience. A lot of people working in the transportation industry do this and it is not very hard to imagine why they would do this. Just one example: https://www.quora.com/Do-truck-drivers-ever-actually-use-piss-jugs https://www.quora.com/Do-truck-drivers-ever-actually-use-pis... You can find several other articles, and also speak to actual drivers and they will also explain why do they do this.
  - Dirlewanger 6y ago
    We know it's you, Amazon's PR firm, behind that throwaway account.
lexs 6y ago
Especially in that region, I would take this vote rather as an indicator of the lack of alternatives. Amazon is so large that they could simply scrap that location without being that bothered, yet the workers do not have that freedom. The choice is between taking what you can get even if it is tied to bad working conditions or having nothing at all.

neonate 6y ago

https://archive.is/V0bXB https://archive.is/V0bXB

marshmallow_12 6y ago

The workers exploited by Amazon will have my utmost sympathy and support. Up until they make a decision that's not in accordance with what i, the great armchair warrior, decide is good for them. Rejecting my unsolicited advice, means they are ungrateful fools unworthy of my elevated consideration. All of that went through my head the moment i read the headline. I'm surprised at how intolerant i really am. But with second thoughts, these workers had a choice, they made it. Who am i to say that they are wrong.

asdff 6y ago

Conservative Alabamans fleeced into voting against their own self interests time again? I'm shocked. In all serious, the political theater espoused on these people has eroded their critical thinking, and this will come back to haunt us when there comes a time for serious leadership in the face of a changing climate, and all we have at the helm are grifters protected by their blind sheep majorities.

musingsole 6y ago
Internet commenter convinced they know someone's interests better than that person? I'm shocked. People aren't dumb. Assuming you know better for people is.
mariksolo 6y ago
What a pretentious thing to say. Maybe your critical thinking is eroded if you refuse to try to understand why people would vote against a union. I'm not saying you have to agree with their decision, but it's ridiculous to assume everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. Are you an Amazon employee at Bessemer? I'm pretty sure any employee there is more qualified to make a decision about their own lives than you.
sb057 6y ago
>Conservative Alabamans Bessemer voted about 5:1 in favor of Biden in the 2020 election. https://www.sos.alabama.gov/sites/default/files/election-data/2020-12/2020%20General%20Precinct%20Results.zip https://www.sos.alabama.gov/sites/default/files/election-dat...

tptacek 6y ago

Here's an interesting and surprising analysis from a labor organizer and writer (you'll need to follow the back-and-forth of the comments a bit): https://twitter.com/yeselson/status/1380363511709196288 https://twitter.com/yeselson/status/1380363511709196288 The short version is: while the Bessemer campaign was a good thing, the vote (according to this person --- everything I'm writing here is according to Yeselson and subject to errors in my understanding) was not. To wit: if a skilled organizer effort isn't sure it's going to win, they pull the vote, reorganize, and try again when they're sure they will. There's further evidence in the threads that nuts-and-bolts organizing, "101 stuff" to use the term I got from labor organizing blogs following up on this, wasn't done; that in fact the worker opponents to unionization were only weakly opposed, and under-educated. Another fun Google search that I found from this thread: [union "hot shop"].

ashtonkem 6y ago
It seems to me like losing 70/30 is a sign that they picked the wrong battle.
- tptacek 6y ago
  Yes, that's what he's saying. You campaign until you're sure it's going to go the other way, 30/70, and then you call for a vote.

KingOfCoders 6y ago

I remember going to the unions xmas party with my dad when I was a kid.

KingOfCoders 6y ago
Sorry to the guy who didn't go to a unions xmas party with his dad and felt to downvote my comment - I feel for you.

ausbah 6y ago

there are valid points against unions, but when the balance of power in this country politically and economically is sooooo slanted towards the capital and those with wealth - I don't find any anti-union argument remotely compelling if the balance of power was more evenly divided maybe, but unions are almost non-existent and government regulations don't favor labor - that making such arguments feels naive to the reality of the situation

ur-whale 6y ago

https://archive.is/V0bXB https://archive.is/V0bXB

intrasight 6y ago

If (when) we have firing decisions made by AI, and anyone - including senior managers and founders can be fired, I'll be those folk would (will) take a difference stance on unions.

mimikatz 6y ago

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-union-vote-why-some-workers-voted-against-unionizing-alabama-2021-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-union-vote-why-some-w... has some interviews with actual workers

stjohnswarts 6y ago

I think this will fail until they try to unionize is a more prosperous state like Virginia, California, New York state.

zenron 6y ago

Why are people in comments treating Bessemer as small town America. It is a part of the greater Birmingham area and Job opportunities abound. It’s 10 or 15 minutes from Healthcare/Banking center clad Birmingham. If you can stomach the crime between Bessemer and parts of Hueytown, you can make an absolute boat load of money. I live like 15 minutes from Bessemer myself and have had to go there or through there many times.

sb057 6y ago
>It’s 10 or 15 minutes from Healthcare/Banking center clad Birmingham. Notoriously easy industries for the working class poor to get into.

diogenescynic 6y ago

Whip me harder said the good slaves.

gtsop 6y ago

Ah, the union vs anti-union discussion again. Seriously we should TDD our way out of this discussion. There are clearly some union policies that work and some others that don't. Can't we work out just the beneficial ones and enforce them as a baseline while discarding the bad ones? Print that as a standard and boom! You've got a compliance measure to rank unions :)

paxys 6y ago

"Here's exactly how these people should have voted" – legions of San Francisco software engineers making $550K/yr convinced that they know everything about the lives of warehouse workers in Bessemer, Alabama making $15/hr.

seriousquestion 6y ago
That sums it up. "I know better than those people", posted a thousand miles away via the latest iPhone, while binging Netflix and waiting for their 2nd Amazon delivery of the day.
alea_iacta_est 6y ago
> legions of San Francisco software engineers making $550K/yr convinced that they know everything about <insert subject here> HN in a nutshell.
falcor84 6y ago
Just to make the comparison easier for people like myself, at 40h/week and 52weeks/yr, that would amount to $264/hr, and a slightly more humble $150K/yr is $72/hr
dev_tty01 6y ago
Yes. Incredible arrogance and clearly insinuates that the people of Bessemer are unable to think for themselves. 71% said no. That is a very clear majority. I think we need to trust the people on the front line with the discernment to make their own decisions. I've been around a lot of people without much formal education who were much wiser than most. And please don't yell about Amazon misrepresenting things. I suspect these people are quite capable of detecting company BS. Give them some credit. Just because you don't agree with their choice doesn't mean their choice is wrong.
- postpawl 6y ago
  Just “misrepresenting things”? Amazon did everything they could to crush the effort. “The retail workers union said Amazon was trying to surveil employees in Bessemer and even changed a traffic signal to prevent organizers from approaching warehouse workers as they left the site. Last month, the New York attorney general said in a lawsuit that Amazon had retaliated against employees who tried to protest its pandemic safety measures as inadequate.” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/16/technology/amazon-unions-virginia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/16/technology/amazon-unions-...

fukmbas 6y ago

What a bunch of idiots lol. If only they knew UPS drivers make over $40/hr not counting overtime. Amazing health care benefits etc. Why? Because they have a union. Meanwhile these Amazon drivers seem to think their $15/hr is plenty.

Animats 6y ago

Wasn't even close. NLRB official results: [1] [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-announces-results-in-amazon-election https://www.nlrb.gov/news-outreach/news-story/nlrb-announces...

one2three4 6y ago

I'm sure there was not a hint of intimidation from the company...

Ericson2314 6y ago

See https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/bessemer-alabama-amazon-union/ https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/bessemer-alabama-... for a pretty damning take. I just kinda wish it had been published beforehand a bit, so it doesn't seem like hindsight dunk.

CryptoPunk 6y ago

Given unionization is associated with enterprise decline, this was a sound vote.

torstenvl 6y ago

Gotta stay ionized.

itisit 6y ago

This is a win for both sides. Unions, more often than not, blow. I wish this apoplexy was around when Walmart was king.

fortran77 6y ago

Reading commentary on left-leaning sites, I'm amused at the people don't accept the worker's vote as "legitimate." They either think it was rigged somehow--some vast compspiracy regarding mailboxes(!)--or that workers are too naïve to know what's right for them. (For example: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/4/9/2025040/-Amazon-reached-out-to-USPS-to-get-private-mailbox-installed-ahead-of-union-vote-emails-show https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/4/9/2025040/-Amazon-re... ) This reaction seems familiar, doesn't it?

SuperSandro2000 6y ago

Most of the work policies we have are the outcome of unions and left politics. If you yote against them you are voting in the interest of your employer which does not care about you, a replaceable warehouse worker, at all. If you have psychological issues because of stress at work and your back is damaged for your lifetime you are just replaced with someone else.