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Dr. Seuss books deemed offensive will be delisted from eBay

• BitwiseFool 6y ago
  Am I not alone in thinking this Neo-puritanism is going too far?
  • 5tefan 6y ago
    No. Seems a minority gained too much influence. No idea why they are perceived as influential in the first place? They exhibit horrible behaviour. Letting go of Seuss seems like a small price to pay to get rid of them. But the sum total is censorship.
    • vipa123 6y ago
      When a shark gets to taste a drop of blood does it just head home afterwards?
      • yerwhat01010 6y ago
        Exactly. The worst thing you can do when dealing with bullies is to give them what they're asking for. Seuss won't be the last beloved cultural icon they come for. At what point are we going to stand up to these lunatics?
    • undefined1 6y ago
      The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority It suffices for an intransigent minority – a certain type of intransigent minorities – to reach a minutely small level, say three or four percent of the total population, for the entire population to have to submit to their preferences. Further, an optical illusion comes with the dominance of the minority: a naive observer would be under the impression that the choices and preferences are those of the majority. https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
      • vyhd 6y ago
        That's what a free market is, yes. edit: or would you prefer "that's what a free market does"? Either way, this is a remarkably incendiary, and frankly absurd, attempt to recast voting with one's wallet as "dictatorship".
  • sergefaguet 6y ago
    No, you are not. A substantial majority of people consider this foolish Just think of it as a weird entertainment show that doesn’t have to be rational. There are crazies in all historical eras; the various social justice people are ours :)
    • tired-dev 6y ago
      > A substantial majority of people consider this foolish [citation needed]. While ebay banning them may be a bit much, I don't know anyone IRL who is upset that Dr. Seuss's B-list books with offensive stereotypes are no longer being sold.
      • drdeca 6y ago
        And I haven't heard anyone I've met in person argue in favor of the banning, and earlier (before the ebay thing) someone I know irl (well, haven't seen them in person in a while, but I still talk to them frequently) complained about the unpublication, and I warned against overreacting about it (now, hearing the ebay thing, I do think the ebay thing is indicative of something which is a somewhat larger concern). (I've only spoken to one person I've met irl about the topic. It is likely that others other people I know would have a variety of different opinions on it, if it were brought up, but the topic didn't come up when we spoke recently.) Do our anecdotes cancel out?
        • tired-dev 6y ago
          Not really sure why it would need to; I was just pointing out that claiming what "a substantial majority" of people think ought to have something backing it up, especially since it didn't jive with either of our anecdotes.
  • DanBC 6y ago
    Had you ever heard of these six books before today? Have you ever read them? How many were sold? We've been sanitising kids books for decades now. What version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory do you own? The original with actual African slaves and the colonialist rescue narrative, or the later version with Oompa Loompas and the colonialist rescue narrative? What version of Edward's Sneeze from the Thomas the Tank Engine series do you own? The one that uses the N word and has a black face joke, or the one that replaced the N word but kept the black face gag? There are like a million kids books published each year. We're not going to miss the few that have lazy, racist, stereotypes.
    • stolenmerch 6y ago
      You just proved the point that things have gone too far. Instead of quietly editing out a drawing or word or two it now must be banned in every store, from ever platform, and even the word "Mulberry", for example, must be purged from theme parks. I wish there weren't old racist things it books too, but the weird censorship and book banning creeps me out.
    • edflsafoiewq 6y ago
      > Had you ever heard of these six books before today? Have you ever read them? Yes, I own McElligot's Pool and I particularly remember borrowing On Beyond Zebra from the library for its imaginary alphabet. The offensive material in Pool appears to be the "Eskimo fish" (the word "Eskimo" apparently being derogatory), and in Zebra, somewhat obscurely, a "Nazzim of Bazzim" riding a camel called a "Spazzim". > We've been sanitising kids books for decades now. I don't really have a problem with that, but they aren't being sanitized are they? They're just not being sold at all.
    • gxqoz 6y ago
      I bought a used version of an early edition of the original Where's Waldo on eBay. I later picked up a modern reprinting of all of them. My son and I were inspecting side-by-side and noticed some differences. Made the books more fun in a way (although if there had been something outrageously offensive in the original that would be a different matter).
    • 6y ago
  • shureluck 6y ago
    Youre absolutely not alone. Im reaching a breaking point where I would not care how society treats Im bot going to let the new puritans take over.
    • yerwhat01010 6y ago
      You're not the only one. People are started to organise against this poison - in fact I read just yesterday about the launch of one new organisation to push back: https://www.fairforall.org/ https://www.fairforall.org/ There's strength in numbers. We must speak up.
  • trhway 6y ago
    >is going too far if history is any guide, they are just getting started. Buckle your seatbelts up and brace for the [multiple] impacts.
  • notahacker 6y ago
    It hasn't even gone as far as the actual Puritanism. Most mainstream web properties do not allow any pornography to be distributed via their service and will remove anything perceived as vaguely pornographic (ironically eBay is a rare exception, but it's walled off). Sometimes even innocuous nudity falls into that category. Nobody on Hacker News compares that policy with Nazi book burning though.
• Bostonian 6y ago
  Why should eBay override the wants of buyers in this way? How many people think the continued sale of Dr. Seuss books is doing harm? I think there are opportunities for less woke companies to gain share.
  • IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
    Maybe they just don't want to? Maybe some employees really abhor the idea of having any part in it? Personally, I wouldn't necessarily care too much. But these people's opinions are just as valid as the other two participants' to that transaction.
• yellowapple 6y ago
  It's weird that these books got pulled from circulation in the first place; the offensiveness is relatively mild (especially for the time), and quite a few of these have historical and literary significance (including the very first children's book published under the "Dr. Seuss" pen name). eBay deciding unilaterally that people can't buy or sell already-printed copies is just icing on the weirdness cake. This is the same website where searching for "minstrel" or "mammy" turns up a veritable smörgåsbord of racist caricatures, and yet some Dr. Seuss books cross the line for them?
  • jfengel 6y ago
    I agree with you that it's a little weird that eBay has decided to draw the line there, but you might give a second thought to what constitutes "relatively mild offensiveness". These racist caricatures have a long and ugly history, and they persist. They may seem mild to you, but to people who have to deal with racist caricatures every day of their lives, it's unpleasant. Not just having to explain to your children why they've been presented like that in this book targeted to them, but why all of the other children they know will have been exposed to the same images. I don't think you intended to diminish that in your post, but I think it's worth taking note when you tell other people that they shouldn't be offended by something when you don't experience it. Take a look at the images, and you can see why the publishers felt that they were better off without them. As for why eBay decided to glom onto that... that I can't say.
    • dTal 6y ago
      https://images.indianexpress.com/2021/03/dr-seuss.jpg https://images.indianexpress.com/2021/03/dr-seuss.jpg Maybe I'm old fashioned but all I see is a smiling boy, in traditional Chinese dress, eating what appears to be rice out of a bowl with chopsticks. Are there actually Chinese people who find this offensive? Why?
      • hntrader 6y ago
        As someone with an Asian background, it's not offensive at all, and I can't think of an Asian person who would find it offensive. This is just cancel culture playing out. Weak, risk-averse executives cowardly bending the knee to a small group of malicious, narcissistic activists. This reminds me of the "What is the problem with Apu?" fiasco. No Indian I knew cared, but a small number of sociopathic activists forced the hands of the cowards in charge.
• offby37years 6y ago
  This is what the fall of an empire looks like. If you’re bearish on this being a Chinese century, ponder where this unchecked neo-McCarthyism leads to.
  • dTal 6y ago
    ...because China has such a open, free culture? This take feels pretty left field, to be honest.
  • Barrin92 6y ago
    gentle reminder that in China currently if you want to create audiovisual fiction you cannot portrait an extramarital affair that ends well. There are about a bazillion such rules. Also I'm unsure what that has to do with the American Empire, does Darpa and the military run on Dr Seuss comics?
  • nscalf 6y ago
    Censorship is the first tool of the CCP. Abduction and forced re-education is the second. Let’s ponder where forceful suppression of your people in the modern age, like Hong Kong, leads to. People whining about how dr Seuss is a bit racist until it’s censored is a far way from what the manipulative, brutalistic, and violent government of China does. And that’s not even mentioning the active genocide they’re committing...
  • dang 6y ago
    Please don't take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar. This topic is flammable enough as it is. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful. They include: "Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
• tim333 6y ago
  The thing seems a bit silly. Curious what was offensive I found the books are on youtube and I'm guessing it's drawing Chinese https://youtu.be/Vl6wD6EGOVk?t=228 https://youtu.be/Vl6wD6EGOVk?t=228 and tribal Africans https://youtu.be/Vl6wD6EGOVk?t=519 https://youtu.be/Vl6wD6EGOVk?t=519 looking like cartoon versions of those. Does this means cartoon caricatures are only acceptable if they are of white westerners? I mean I can understand the publishers thinking they may get in trouble and it's easier to drop those lines but the thing seems to be getting a bit out of hand.
  • offby37years 6y ago
    Yes. When only whites can be racist, only whites can be caricatured.
    • emptysongglass 6y ago
      Not only whites can be racist. Any race in power, anywhere, becomes the new "white man" when powers are tipped. There is nothing fundamental to your skin color: all of us bear the seeds of our future cruelty. And until we address desire and deconstitute it atom by atom, none of us will ever be free.
      • Dig1t 6y ago
        I don't understand the need for the "in power" qualification. It specifically is saying that discrimination based on race is not racist unless they are the majority. So does this mean that if an asian man murders a black man, specifically because he is black, that this is not racism? I honestly don't get it.
        • bopbeepboop 6y ago
          It’s just a language game some racists invented to deny their racism. You don’t get it because it’s wrong.
        • nerdponx 6y ago
• balozi 6y ago
  I realize now just how easy it is for any society to fall into the abyss.
  • jaimex2 6y ago
    It just seems to be big tech. They really need to be leveled.
• rhema 6y ago
  Now do fraudulent GPU listings.
• tomdell 6y ago
  Surprised by the majority of comments here. How many of you have actually looked at these pictures? A private entity decided to stop publishing certain things. Another private entity is declining to sell old copies of said things. This is not “cancel culture” like conservative commentators want to make it out to be - and I think the publisher and now eBay are making the right call - children are impressionable, and presenting racial caricatures like these to them is not good.
  • TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    A handful of companies influencing the overton window of the entire nation in response to easily upset Twitter mobs is precisely what I consider to be part of cancel culture.
    • lotsofpulp 6y ago
      The irony is that the people I see complaining about are usually very pro market forces and let businesses do what they want type people.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • alentist 6y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26351550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26351550
  • allturtles 6y ago
    > children are impressionable Like how exposure to pictures of demons and pretending to be wizards turns young D&D players into satanists? And exposure to violent rap lyrics turns them into murderers? I have looked at the pictures, some make me cringe a bit, others don't seem like a big deal to me. And ultimately the Seuss copyright holders can do what they want, it's their property. I'm not sure why eBay feels the need to get involved. But I found the "think of the children" arguments for banning media equally unconvincing when they were conservative talking points thirty years ago. Edit: Also, almost all kids will be exposed to these books with a parent present, having it read to them. The parent can contextualize the images however they like, reducing any risk of bad 'impressions'.
• DC1350 6y ago
  eBay still sells Mein Kampf. Banning books is stupid.
  • ojnabieoot 6y ago
    As I pointed out elsewhere, this is misleading and approaching a lie. eBay only allows critically-annotated copies of Mein Kampf which are designed for scholars. I am sure that a copy of “If I Ran The Zoo” with a sociologist critically annotating the abhorrent racism would be permitted on eBay. From one of the listed items: > This item has been listed previously. eBay removed it with this reminder of the guidelines: > "You listed the book Mein Kampf, but it is not a critically annotated edition. eBay only allows critically annotated versions of Mein Kampf to be listed on the site. While we appreciate that you chose to utilize our site, we must ask that you please not relist in this case." > This is their policy and this edition is compliant with that policy.
    • DC1350 6y ago
      What about this one? https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Der-Giftpilz-by-Ernst-Hiemer-English-reprint-Hardback-Julius-Streicher/133671113828?hash=item1f1f6b5464:g:AxYAAOSwyxhfXhEz https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Der-Giftpilz-by-Ernst-Hiemer-English... I can buy a children’s book written by literal Nazis that was created to teach kids why Jews are bad and how to recognize them. I can’t buy a Dr. Seuss book about the zoo because there’s a mildly offensive picture of a Chinese person. Really?
      • ojnabieoot 6y ago
        What do you want me to say? I don’t work for eBay! It looks like that book is against eBay’s policy and should probably be flagged. They are not the only online marketplace where people sometimes break the rules. > there’s a mildly offensive picture of a Chinese person. a) Fuck off with “mildly offensive,” it’s flagrantly racist and doesn’t belong in a children’s book or on eBay’s marketplace (in accordance with eBay’a policy) b) I see you didn’t mention the cartoon of the Africans in the exact same book, which is straight out of the Klan and makes your argument much weaker.
• bobcallme 6y ago
  Finally, the homosexual problem will be solved.
• nph5667 6y ago
  What bothers me is the speed with which this process - "accused -> convinced -> executed" happens. We are not discussing things anymore. Today, you could tweet any accusations, and, no matter how ridiculous they look at first, it will lead to a race of who is taking them most seriously. Something definitely is broken. Look at what happened to the "okay". 4chan forced that meme 5 years ago in what they thought is a mischievous parody of ridiculousness of the cancel culture, and recently I watched CNL where the audience gasped in disbelief when one of the sketches included "o"-word. 5 years only, and most common (almost used "o"-word, sorry) sign became a synonym of hatred and racism. And now, Dr. Seuss. What's next, someone will tweet the act of breathing is racist? Do you really think it's impossible?
  • vmception 6y ago
    Yeah I was sad about that guy at a theme park that got fired for making an OK sign in a family's photo. Its like everyone forgot about the circle game, "the game", and went straight for white supremacy racist. I wanted to write in or call in, but it was too late. This one is crazy, but I have my own causes and that ain't one of them! I find it peculiar and I'm aware "they are coming for the trade unionists next" but I think I can navigate this reality and stay out of the re-education camps.
    • themolecularman 6y ago
      > I find it peculiar and I'm aware "they are coming for the trade unionists next" but I think I can navigate this reality and stay out of the re-education camps. How? I think they'll get to you next. As commenters above pointed out, there is a "long march" through institutions before it starts trickling down.
      • vmception 6y ago
        a lot of people took the transfer agreement instead of tying their identity to their birth country. don't be like the ones that were married to their country, they got vanned and banned. There were plenty of solutions to navigate before the .... last one. I think the parallels will hold pretty well this go-around, easily navigable options.
• Udik 6y ago
  Oh yes, finally the book burnings!
• ostenning 6y ago
  I guess we can start burning these books soon, seems like the next logical step
  • underseacables 6y ago
    For Reference: books burn at Fahrenheit 451°
  • naebother 6y ago
    I wouldn't if I had any. They're going to become collectibles eventually and could fetch you a decent amount. My totally true conspiracy-theory is, the dr-seus-industrial-complex is at it again, manipulating the collectible editions market to make bank.
• rufus_foreman 6y ago
  Wait till they find out about his views of women: https://www.drseussart.com/secretandarchive/booby-trap https://www.drseussart.com/secretandarchive/booby-trap. Joking of course, but if all you've seen of Seuss is the kids books, take a look at his other artwork: https://www.drseussart.com/secretandarchive https://www.drseussart.com/secretandarchive
  • carapace 6y ago
    Oh wow! Cheers! I had no idea Dr. Seuss did all that. These are amazing! Puts me in mind of Dali!! The very first one is "The Abduction of the Sabine Women"!!! By Dr. Seuss!!!! It was SOOOOOOO worth wading through all the sturm und drang in here just to find your comment. You have enriched my life rufus_foreman. Thank you!
• neonate 6y ago
  https://archive.is/ZxcpU https://archive.is/ZxcpU
• adrr 6y ago
  Private company pulls their own books. How is this news? I still want my original version of Star Wars or ET.
  • snicksnak 6y ago
    ebay does not own the books, but they deny service because they deem these books offensive.
    • adrr 6y ago
      I see 100+ listings for “if I ran a zoo”on ebay. Also see entries on Amazon and used books for sale.
      • snicksnak 6y ago
        The spokesperson stated those item will be removed but it will take some time.
• beervirus 6y ago
  Earlier this week when the story from the publisher broke, I had a look on ebay to see if these books were available. The ones I found were already listed for over $100.
• supernova87a 6y ago
  Now this part is getting a little too carried away. It is one thing for libraries and bookstores to decide not to offer for borrowing or sale things that they disagree with. It is another (and overstepping imo) for Ebay to restrict individual people from selling to others goods that are not illegal or in violation of their other practical rules (no selling jewelry, monetary equivalents, etc). This falls into the category of taste / political opinions and has gone too far too quickly. Much as I don't like what the silly cartoons are, and of course while I don't think Ebay is a public forum that has any obligations (they can do what they want), I think Ebay is getting in deeper than it should. Will they apply the logic here to all categories of goods for sale? T-shirts? Political buttons? Historical political pamphlets? Current political pamphlets or campaign material? How about baseball team merchandise that has racist mascots? (Why haven’t they?) Merchandise of companies where the CEO may have bigoted views? How about books that have words in them that discuss race, or in any way describe an unflattering picture of a certain group? Or scientific studies that may come to race-based findings? I think the other thing that bothers me is that to be protected by such measures, you have to be popular. And it's flimsy. This year it's <x> group, next year that group is forgotten and it's on to <y> group. Woe to the actually wronged group of people who can't garner enough popular support, and who fall by the wayside of laws that are less enforced because people thought the social-media driven justice system took care of it. Ps. And edit just to add, lest someone discount my opinion as from a privileged position, I am among one of the groups said to be portrayed in a racist way in those books. If only people’s concern about racism in cartoons extended to more important matters as well.
  • Fezzik 6y ago
    and from a platform that still allows Mein Kampf to be listed it seems especially idiotic... Edit, to add: as a comment below notes eBay only allows annotated versions of the book. So maybe they are consistent; I didn’t click through any of the listings when I searched. I also have no idea how you annotate Mein Kampf to not be racist/anti-Semitic propaganda...
    • snicksnak 6y ago
      It's the next step of corporate virtue signaling. Just repeating slogans on twitter or changing the bio and profile of a company account will not be enough anymore, instead pick a ridiculous hot topic from the news cycle and use this as an opportunity to implement an even more ridiculous policy change in your company to show that your company is down with the cause. I bet we will see even more of that.
• jeffreyrogers 6y ago
  About 5 years ago a friend of mine was saying, "yeah, it's bad at the universities but it doesn't affect the real world." Pretty funny how quickly things accelerated. I'd like to get off this ride.
  • vyhd 6y ago
    What data did your friend use to come to that conclusion? Would you be willing to share so we can come to our own conclusions based on the evidence presented?
    • fuzxi 6y ago
      Can you participate in one (1) conversation without asking for data or studies? Obviously he doesn't have a list of articles his friend used to make an offhand comment.
      • vyhd 6y ago
        I wouldn't call it "obvious" that someone would accept another's opinion without any info to back it up and then extol it, though it's very interesting to me that you did.
        • fuzxi 6y ago
          I didn't accept or reject his opinion. I pointed out that you're acting like an unsocialized ass when you say shit like "Wow, got a source for what some other guy based his comment on 5 years ago?"
          • prepend 6y ago
            I don’t understand GP’s comments. It’s like they are so obstinate or cargo cult fixated on a good idea and messed it up so badly to think that asking for evidence is appropriate everywhere. “Do you have data to support your stated preference for chocolate ice cream?”
• godmode2019 6y ago
  I'm surprised people don't understand public relations. These books were likely not good sellers. I have many of their books but never heard if these titles. All 6 books have issues? But only two images have been described. The company just hit a home run in global PR the whole world has run this story. Honestly this is very smart for the company it gives them attention, they get to remove low volume books and it makes cancel cultural look bad to normal people https://www.rollingstone.com/product-recommendations/books/buy-dr-seuss-books-online-1136080/ https://www.rollingstone.com/product-recommendations/books/b...
  • merge-lane 6y ago
    I was thinking something similar. Now it seems eBay is jumping in, trying to ride the wave of viral publicity. I haven't thought about Dr. Seuss or ebay in ages but suddenly my wife is buying Dr. Seuss books in case they ban more. Maybe I am just cynical, but it seems like a few people are getting promotions over this ordeal.
• CodeGlitch 6y ago
  The modern version of book burning? Are the people enacting this too cowardly to stand up to "the mob". What a strange time we live in.
  • Pfhreak 6y ago
    What hyperbole. The publisher decided to stop publishing a book. Ebay decided to enforce their TOS that has been in place all over. It's hardly book burning. Edit: Also, you know there are Americans out there actually burning books like the Quran, right? No need to be outraged over slippery slope fallacious "book burning" when you could spend that energy on cases where real actual book burning has taken place.
    • medicineman 6y ago
      Pure semantics. History has proven the slippery slope is real.
    • CodeGlitch 6y ago
      Perhaps - but at what point do we stand up and say "no"? One day something you agree with or love will be taken down because it's found to be "offensive".
• elindbe3 6y ago
  Thank God I have ebay to protect me from reading Doctor Seuss! Now please excuse me while I go bid on a vintage copy of "Charles Manson In His Own Words".
  • crowbahr 6y ago
    While I think ebay bans are ridiculous most of this furor is about old, very racist books that Seuss himself apologized for later in life. 99% of Seuss readers have never read Oh Beyond Zebra, and nobody will miss the Cat's Quizzer.
    • elindbe3 6y ago
      IDK I think it's quite cowardly if ebay is not willing to be consistent in what they are willing to sell. For example, if they can find a few people that are offended by violent video games, then all violent video games should be taken down from eBay. If I'm offended by the Communist Manifesto then it's time to take all copies of it off the site. In fact they could even automate this. They already have a report item button. Whenever someone clicks that and marks the item offensive they could remove that whole class of items.
    • liveoneggs 6y ago
      On Beyond Zebra was one of my favorites as a child, one of the first I bought for my own children, and its message makes banning it very sadly ironic. make no mistake - this is a massive loss of american culture.
    • djsbak 6y ago
      “very racist books“ Really? Very racist? You don’t think you’re exaggerating with the “very”? If “what I saw on Mulberry street” counts as “very racist” where do you put “Huckleberry Finn” or “To kill a Mockingbird” with their colorful language? I mean you have two great American classics unapologetically using the n-word vs a cartoon of a Chinese kid dressed as he did a few decades before the book was written. N-word vs. kid dressed as he dressed. Don’t you think “mildly discomforting depiction of a foreigner?” is more proportional?
• eric4smith 6y ago
  A bit off-topic, but I use Green Eggs and Ham to help teach my friends English here in Asia. It works pretty well, since there is quite a limited vocabulary. And it's pretty magical! I can have someone reading aloud from the book quite fluently, with extremely limited english skills, after only a few hours. The other part is, because of the superior illustration skills of the author, people quickly understand the difference between things like "here" and "there". Because of the repetition of words, they quickly memorize them permanently. We take those things for granted, and I'm not sure if that was the Doctor's intent, but gosh-darned it, it is so effective for teaching adults to read English. I wish there were more books like that.
  • m463 6y ago
    Green Eggs and Ham also teaches people to try new things. Next try Fox in Socks - that is some next-level elucidation.
  • crowbahr 6y ago
    The Seuss books being removed aren't Green Eggs & Ham: they're the older racist books that Seuss apologized for later.
    • jariel 6y ago
      They're not racist - they're books with caricatures of any number of cultures, including Western cultures. It's possible people could be offended, but they're not any more offensive than any creative depiction of anything (Edit: poor choice of words there - they are more offensive than 'anything' but not more so than many things). All of Disney's films, even the most modern one's are caricatured articulations of cultures. If Alladin is not racist, neither is Dr. Seuss. Edit: Go anywhere in the Middle East, stay there for two weeks. Then have a look at the 'Alladin' Disney cartoon and you will see, undoubtedly that it's buffoonishly caricatured, Orientalist pastiche of ME culture. I don't think most people in the ME are going to be straight up offended, but it's undoubtedly a clownish and reductive depiction. Not racist ... but definitely stereotypically caricatured. I agree they're probably not perfectly suitable for kids, that's fine, and publishers have to make decisions based on fear as much as anything, but the EBay ban is ridiculous, and a sign of American cultural decline consistent with the rise of Trumpism. It's not progress. We are adults, we know roughly what's nice and not, and within the margins we can make up our own minds. A sticker on the book indicating that some might be offended would be appropriate, just as they do for a lot of pop music (incidentally targeted at young teens) which contains brutally misogynist and violent content.
• jaimex2 6y ago
  If you want to send a clear message to eBay you can close your account here. https://www.ebay.com.au/help/account/changing-account-settings/closing-account?id=4199 https://www.ebay.com.au/help/account/changing-account-settin... It should not be up to them what is and isn't offensive. I did the same to Netflix last year. Money talks at the end of the day.
  • missedthecue 6y ago
    and thus, the cancel cold war escalates another step
    • jaimex2 6y ago
      it's a great opportunity for competitors
    • tastygreenapple 6y ago
      It's not cancel culture when you opt out of something, it's cancel culture when you decide for others that that they can't do something. Throwing these books away isn't cancel culture. Telling other people they can't sell or buy the book is cancel culture.
    • IAmWorried 6y ago
      I mean what's the alternative? The language companies speak is that of money. How are you supposed to combat this without "fighting fire with fire"?
  • question000 6y ago
    I'm just so offended that you would economically harm all the good people working at EBay due to political stances they might not even agree with. People are so reactionary these days. This is the real cancel culture.
    • throwaway3699 6y ago
      Is this sarcasm? eBay is a publicly traded multi-billion dollar corporation. If they do something I hate, why would I ever shop there again?
• chairmanwow1 6y ago
  What the fuck is eBay thinking? Erasing the past we don’t like is not the way to make progress. Teaching a kid how much we have progressed from this moment in time. Our present is the collection of all the actions we have taken as a species in the past. Our present is defined by context. Thanks for keeping us safe from these scary depictions of how different “acceptability” was in the past. /s
• chroem- 6y ago
  My work sent out a memo today regarding what pronouns I'm allowed to use. We're in the middle of a cultural revolution, and the current trend seems to be for rapid acceleration rather than moderation.
  • abhorrence 6y ago
    With what pronouns you're allowed to use to describe yourself? Or what pronouns you're allowed to use to describe others?
    • chroem- 6y ago
      I am no longer allowed to refer to my group of cisgendered male companions as "you guys."
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • servercobra 6y ago
        Time to embrace "y'all"! But seriously, that's pretty heavy handed IMO to tell you that you can't use "you guys". Encourage? Sure! But not allowed seems a bit far to me.
        • deleted 6y ago
          [deleted]
        • yerwhat01010 6y ago
          I've heard people say it's racist for white people to say "y'all" too, since black people say "y'all" therefore it's cultural appropriation. Nevermind that "y'all" is common among white Southerners (where do you think African Americans picked it up from?). Why let facts get in the way of your attempts to control people?
      • cc_cccc 6y ago
        I hope everyone agrees how insane this is. Language is not a rigid construct, it is inherently contextual.
• fasteddie31003 6y ago
  Is there a historical precedent for when the side who advocates banning books turned out to be the side of good?
  • _-david-_ 6y ago
    Here are some examples that a majority of people likely agree should be burned and are probably on the side of good - books containing literal child porn - books with troop locations and movement during an ongoing war - books with current nuclear launch codes I am not sure how many of those have any historical precedence though.
• major505 6y ago
  I don't know any culture that banned books independent of their content that people didn't regret in the future. A few months ago I was reading about schools banning the book "To Kill a Mockingbird" because it contains basically the "n" word. I'm not american, and and havent read that book. I watched the movie, through, and it seemed to me to be a very anti racism message. I think instead of banning, schools should work provide context to kids and teens that read this books, of how society was when they where written, so people don't forget the past, but are able to make better decisions to the future.
  • rozab 6y ago
    Hysterical articles tend to use the word 'ban' when they really mean something like 'choosing not to air' or 'removing from the curriculum'.
    • schoen 6y ago
      In the U.S. "Banned Books Week" has existed since 1982 to commemorate books that someone tried to prevent the public, or students, from accessing in a particular place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banned_Books_Week https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banned_Books_Week This has almost always been metaphorical, because only a tiny minority of these cases involved someone trying to make a book illegal for everyone to possess or sell. You could accuse the ALA and the ABFFE of exaggeration, maybe rightly, in choosing the word "ban" (it seems like they early-on chose to clarify it as "banned and challenged"), but it has a fairly long history. Edit: There's an interesting subtlety here where Banned Books Week has generally tended to assume that teachers and librarians, in particular, were well-equipped to make good judgments for their communities, while anyone who tried to pressure them to change their decisions (in the direction of less access) was engaged in something questionable. So if teachers chose not to teach a book, that wasn't usually called "banning", whereas if someone tried to get a school board or school principal to make teachers stop teaching a book, that was "banning". Likewise for librarians' decisions to make books available (or not). The most common formulation seemed to be that these professionals are entitled to a kind of academic freedom that gives them autonomy to make these decisions without second-guessing by others, and in particular that a teacher's or librarian's (or bookseller's) decision to make something available to an audience should be respected, while someone else's decision to prevent or discourage these professionals from doing so should be questioned or criticized. Maybe because Banned Books Week and similar observances are mainly organized and promoted by associations of teachers, librarians, and booksellers, they seem to cast blame and scrutiny mainly outside of their own professions. :-) In the 1980s and 1990s most of the challenges highlighted by these organizations came from the right, against books that featured sexual minorities, people questioning or mocking their religious upbringing, or children in intense or extreme situations. At the time, many booksellers, librarians, and teachers thought that these books were, at least sometimes, appropriate for children because it was a good thing for them to think about these topics, and not likely to harm them. I don't know what to anticipate from these professions now as they're confronted with a very different set of challenges to intellectual and cultural freedom.
• gscott 6y ago
  Yet eBay sells Mein Kampf: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=+Mein+Kampf&_sacat=0 https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m...
  • guerrilla 6y ago
    Apparently they only allow critically annotated copies.
    • gscott 6y ago
      You're right they all do say annotated. I wasn't sure what that meant.
• legitster 6y ago
  I think nearly every reasonable person agrees: - Particular illustrations have not aged well - The content itself nor Dr. Seuss can be accused of malice - The offending content is not really a high risk of perpetrating future malice - It's completely within the right of the publisher to not want to profit from these books anymore But at no point did it seem like anyone made the point that you can't read or enjoy the book with your kids! I think the mistake was the publisher should have just slapped a statement in the beginning, or better yet, just released them all into the public domain. Instead, it seems like they unwittingly triggered an unwritten social infrastructure we have created called "cancellation".
  • whoopdedo 6y ago
    > The offending content is not really a high risk of perpetrating future malice I don't agree with this. Dr. Seuss's books are read by children when their minds are most malleable and least able to recognize context. Leaving these problematic images on library shelves for them to discover means that some of those children will grow up believing it's okay to think about other people that way. I know by my own experience how difficult it is to unlearn something I saw as a child. I wouldn't want to expose my children to the same things that will burden them with those stereotypes. Or worse, that they wouldn't think of the stereotypes as a burden. Certainly we can't and shouldn't erase the past and these books are an important part of our history. But they should be left alone there, solely for historians and researchers and not for children.
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  • tired-dev 6y ago
    Keep in mind that Seuss's early career involved drawing racist WWII propaganda. While he largely reformed in later years, it would be inaccurate to say that some of the content has merely "not aged well"
  • UncleMeat 6y ago
    > It's completely within the right of the publisher to not want to profit from these books anymore I've seen a ton of people disagree with this in the last several hours.
• vondur 6y ago
  More effective than a Nazi book burning party!
• jrochkind1 6y ago
  Ebay's existing "offensive materials policy": https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/offensive-material-policy?id=4324 https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-ite... They already banned nazi memorabilia, confederate flags, "minstrel" type memorabilia, etc. [edit: You will note this comment contains no editorializing or opinion whatsoever, it is supplying some context with a link. It doesn't say if I think it's a good idea or not to have that policy, just the fact that ebay already had a policy on offensie materials, under which already things like nazi memorabilia were banned, which to me seems relevant. That this comment is getting downvoted shows... something?]
• 40four 6y ago
  I haven’t seen these books since I was a kid. Does anyone know of, or where I can find the specific examples from each book, and what people find offensive? I’m really curious to the specifics here. On this same topic, I recently rewatched Aladdin, on Disney plus and was surprised that it was prefaced with a ‘social justice’ disclaimer. They said they wouldn’t take it down, but warned it might be offensive. Ok, so we prepared to ourselves be offended, and yet I wasn’t. The movie holds up, and was really enjoyable! I’m not really sure what the issue was? I guess the depiction of Arab people is the issue, but I couldn’t find anything particularly egregious.
  • madeofpalk 6y ago
    So what’s the problem?
  • 40four 6y ago
    To answer my own question about the Dr. Seuss books, it appears to be controversial images of Asian & African people.
    • Rebelgecko 6y ago
      I think that's only for 2 or 3 of the books. One of them was pulled for using what I guess we should call the E-word now
      • 40four 6y ago
        Sorry I don’t follow, is the e-word ‘evolution’? :) Yeah I found a picture of the Africans question. This might be the worst one. I see why folks would take it the wrong way. They are potbellied, dressed in ‘tribal’ garb. Stereotypical I suppose, but I don’t see why that’s necessarily a racist ‘statement’ of all black people. Within the context of the text, it’s about going to an African island and bringing back an exotic bird. And I found one of the ‘oriental’ pictures, and honesty it is pretty benign. Maybe the other is worse I don’t know didn’t find it. Also, there is a very benign picture of an Arab gentleman riding a camel. Very innocent, nothing in particular offensive in my opinion.
• lwansbrough 6y ago
  Yeah someone should compile a list of all the cultural elements of western society (books, movies, music, etc.) that include racist symbolism that should be banned in order to appease these people. Then they will actually have to justify the mass book burning as a whole instead of slowly picking off these dangerous offenders like Dr. Seuss one by one.
• ravenstine 6y ago
  I understand that eBay has existing policies about what they will allow to be sold, but doesn't going to this length basically mean that a lot of media will eventually be banned? Something we say today may(probably will) be considered offensive in the future. Maybe this is the inevitable model for the future; mass "software updates" to our culture ushered in by Silicon Valley. Is this good?
• slibhb 6y ago
  It has to be made clear that this isn't about legality. It's also not about whether this "technically qualifies" as "banning" or "censorship". It's about what kind of society we want to live in. I want to live in an open society. I want to be able to watch movies and read books that offend people. I want to be my own censor and I want everybody to be their own censor. We're grown-ups, we can make decisions like this for ourselves.
  • djoldman 6y ago
    Not trying to be snarky but there are I believe more than enough stores happy to sell you whatever you want, even though eBay won't allow these books to be listed. I'm confused as to how eBay banning the listing of these books materially impacts people from getting them.
    • throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      It's not about the impact. It's about what's socially acceptable behavior. It's the same reason we get angry at people for saying racist crap even though we believe in freedom of speech.
      • TameAntelope 6y ago
        What’s the alternative, that eBay is forced to sell things they don’t believe are in their best interests to list?
        • therealjumbo 6y ago
          No, the alternative is that the execs at ebay grow a spine and tell the morality censors to go pound sand. Not that complicated.
          • TameAntelope 6y ago
            I think it's good you're correctly identifying the group actually making the decision, rather than vaguely blaming "Twitter" or even more broad, "cancel culture". I wish more folks understood it's the companies themselves who are overreacting. Trying to fix people on the Internet is an unsolvable problem. Demonstrating to companies that outrage is almost always temporary and not business-impacting seems achievable.
• yew 6y ago
  We mustn't forget the history that resulted in these racist books. At the same time, it's important to ensure that children aren't exposed to such material. Removing them from public spaces is a good first step - eventually we'll need to give thought to rummage sales and private libraries (parents often try to pass their erroneous ideas on without the consent of society, of course, and accidents happen). Given the volume of literature in modern society and the workforce needed to police physical (not just virtual) material, cooperation between all involved interests, public and private, might perhaps be warranted.
  • hstan4 6y ago
    Will we be required to submit our private book collection to the government agency of your choosing? Also, how dare parents pass their ideas onto their own children without the school’s consent.
  • throwaway17_17 6y ago
    Genuinely curious, is this a sarcastic post? If so, it needs a /s.
• b0tzzzzzzman 6y ago
  Are kids actually learning racism is ok from these books or are they enjoying the art and simplistic ideas of the story? Do adults read these books and enthusiastically think.. This author gets it. No, thats just ridiculous. Why does every corporation feel the need to play out these stunts? More free press and discussions on social media. A part in the news cycle. They do it, Because it gets them more in return. If it didn't they would remain neutral.
  • SilverRed 6y ago
    I had a flick through one of the banned books I have and I was unable to fault anything in it. I had to look up what the problem was and then check back and I felt it was a really big stretch to call it offensive.
    • brendoelfrendo 6y ago
      It makes me wonder: I've seen several people here comment that they didn't think the content was "that offensive" or that it's a "stretch" to call it so. Perhaps the takeaway is not that these things are, therefore, not offensive, but that children exposed to these things internalize them as normal and struggle to acknowledge their offensiveness later in life.
      • yew 6y ago
        Exactly! Children are very vulnerable to unsound ideas - this thread is full of proof of that fact. Allowing them to be exposed to just any content while they're still developing their own perspective is simply inhumane.
      • SilverRed 6y ago
        The stuff I found in the books were stereotypes, but they weren't negative stereotypes and they weren't untrue either. One book had a picture of a man in traditional Chinese clothing but the text and context was not mocking or insulting. At what point does simply representing an image of someone from another culture become offensive? And after all this, if one of the books did contain something truly bad, why not do something like Disney and add a disclaimer or edit the content? The material in question in these books is less than 1% and isn't core to the story or images.
• null0pointer 6y ago
  Here's a list of all the times the people banning books have been on the right side of history:
• dfilppi 6y ago
  Deemed offensive by whom?
• bArray 6y ago
  Possibly worth pointing out that you can pick up a paid copy of Mein Kampf online. I think like Mein Kampf, Dr Seuss has historical value and we should hold off on the book burning. Very few books will hold up to modern scrutiny - we need to stop before there's nothing left of our past.
• kens 6y ago
  Curiously, the delisted book "If I Ran the Zoo" contains the first use of the word "nerd" in print. (Just something I found out a couple of decades ago and thought might be interesting to HN.)
• jimbob45 6y ago
  When are we going to admit that black supremacy is just as damaging as white supremacy? I’m not saying we should all become white supremacists because the science obviously doesn’t check out but surely it’s time to call racial superiority groups out for the trash they’ve become. It’s no longer about “racial equality” and I’m not sure it ever was. They’re just out to squash other races at this point.
• motohagiography 6y ago
  What is there left to say?
• Imnimo 6y ago
  It's hard to tell from eBay's limited comment whether this is because eBay is super upset about the content of the books, or because they're worried these books will lead to fraudulent activity in the short term because of the hoopla surrounding them. It seems weird for it to be the former, considering eBay allows sale of much more offensive books.
• cwkoss 6y ago
  I don't know what is in these books, so not going to comment about whether they should be delisted or not. But, eBay is doing a really shit job at this in a way that ensures almost everyone will be mad at them. - They have delisted many copies of this book - They still have dozens of copies available still listed Literally the first search I did - the name of one of these books - found many still-listed ones. If you're going to enact a policy, at least do it consistently.
• rubyist5eva 6y ago
  Just a reminder that Ebay is not delisting Mein Kampf.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• I_Byte 6y ago
  This makes me think of Whoopi Goldberg's introduction to the second volume of the "Tom and Jerry Spotlight Collection" published in 2005 [0]. Warner Bros faced the same kind question that we see these companies grappling with now and decided it was best to keep a majority of the offensive content in the collection. Most importantly, the collection was prefaced by Whoopi Goldberg and she explained why the offensive clips were included. I highly recommend anyone who reads this comment to watch the video below. I personally feel as though it would be better to do something like this with Dr. Seuss' books rather than ceasing their publication. [0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_oEOdIBOpU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_oEOdIBOpU Edit - Whoopi Goldberg also did something similar for the third volume of the collection as well --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCT1clqci3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCT1clqci3I
  • cwkoss 6y ago
    Wow, that introduction is really great.
• TedShiller 6y ago
  All these outlets say the books are "offensive" but they don't say why. Has anyone actually looked at these books? I have. Nothing in there is even remotely offensive. It would help to explain what is offensive, so we don't just take their word for it.
  • harry8 6y ago
    It sucks that there are over 100 news sites, including the big ones reporting it but none will actually show the offensive images for fear of being offensive themselves or even describe the images. I'm with you, that is a huge worry.
    • krrrh 6y ago
      Canada’s National Post delivered on this front, but generally speaking the media have been significantly more absurd than when they were all afraid to publish the Mohammed cartoons. https://nationalpost.com/entertainment/books/here-are-the-wrong-illustrations-that-got-six-dr-seuss-books-cancelled https://nationalpost.com/entertainment/books/here-are-the-wr...
• koolba 6y ago
  Better order Babar while you can. If Dr. Seuss is canceled there’s no way Babar is sticking around.
• robomartin 6y ago
  This is getting bad, really bad. It reminds me of this poem by Martin Niemöller: --------- First they came for the Communists. And I did not speak out. Because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the Socialists. And I did not speak out. Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists. And I did not speak out. Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews. And I did not speak out. Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me. And there was no one left. To speak out for me. --------- We are destroying a culture whose solid footing used to be tolerance. People need to understand that once you go far enough in this direction there is no going back. One day a different ideology will have control. At that moment in time they will remember what you did to them. The result will be a vindictive response in the opposite direction. One of the key concepts of the idea of freedom of speech is that, in order to protect it, you have to protect that with which you do not agree, you find abhorrent or distasteful. Cancel culture is a culture that exacts punishment, destroys lives, careers and businesses for ideological motive. Once again, having gone down this pay, people should dread the day the opposite ideology gains control. Most Latin American nations have gone through this kind of thing repeatedly. When government B is in power, they disgrace, jail, kill, exile and fire those directly and peripherally involved with government B. When B regains power, they return the favor. This descends into industry, contracts and some areas of society. The US, going down this path, is becoming Latin America. Be very careful what you wish for. I have seen it with my own eyes and it isn't anything Americans will enjoy. If you don't want this to happen you have to go out of your way to protect the speech, freedom and rights of those with whom you might not agree. Do that and there's a future. Take advantage of the moment in time to remain quiet (because you align with the cancellation) or be cruel to the other side and the outcome is most-assuredly something you will not enjoy at some point in your life. I am not religious, but this rings true: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
  • yew 6y ago
    If the ideology that produced these books survives to take power, we will have failed as a society. But I'm not worried - we're better positioned than ever to hunt error to the farthest corners of the world, if need be.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• jcoq 6y ago
  My wife's family is first generation Iraqi and Egyptian. They LOVE Aladdin.
• Spinnaker_ 6y ago
  Dr. Seuss is currently #1-6 and holds 22 of the top 30 bestsellers on amazon right now. Interesting timing for this to all unfold.
• bitcurious 6y ago
  A search for “nazi” on eBay returns 28000+ results.
• vmception 6y ago
  Okay I was all for the Dr. Seuss estate deciding to no longer publish their own works, for whatever reason they wanted. W H A T E V E R reason, including using their platform to make a statement about society. I think this has been misinterpreted by everyone else, including Amazon and now Ebay, as well as everybody trying to extrapolate "what comes next, here is this unrelated hyperbolic example to let everyone know cancel culture has gone too farrrr"
• Lammy 6y ago
  Once again California sets an early example for all of us by trying to ban Seuss way back in the '80s: https://larrylivermore.com/2011/08/19/the-town-that-tried-to-ban-the-lorax/ https://larrylivermore.com/2011/08/19/the-town-that-tried-to...
• ggggtez 6y ago
  I respect eBay's ability to decide what is for sale on their platform, but I agree with the reporter: It's incredibly silly to ban a Dr. Seuss book when Mein Kampf is available. This is what people call "virtue signaling". The article says that only 7000 copies were sold of the highest selling such Dr. Seuss book. This has no practical effects besides publicity. If they are going to seriously take this view, then they should have started with Mein Kampf. Now, if they were to release a press-release with a long list of banned products, or classes of products, that isn't to say I'd necessarily agree that it was a good thing. But at least it would be consistent.
• john_moscow 6y ago
  I think, the social mechanics of this process is very simple. Ability to tell others what to do is called power. Some people are more power-hungry than others, so they seek ways to assert themselves over others. That's a perfectly normal human thing to do. What matters is the way you would achieve power in a society. Getting power through building up your name as a notable researcher or author is one thing. Playing favor games with others in power is another one. In stable societies the power ladder is at least partially correlated with creating added value. Getting people to buy your product, getting people to elect you into office, even helping out your friends so one day they will help you haul that fridge upstairs. They also have some checks and countermeasures, like the universally trusted independent judicial system, that somewhat impedes attempts to break this correlation. Except now it's breaking apart. Now we have a growing socioeconomic group that wields increasing power over what others can say by just claiming that they are fighting for a good cause. As long as you are anti-$BUZZWORD and have a sufficient network of followers, nobody dares to oppose you and nobody will protect those who dare. It's not really about what is in the book or what pronouns someone uses. It's about the fact that a power-hungry person can have the pleasure of telling 1000 other people what to say, and financially obliterate those who don't comply. And no, there won't be a happy blissful day at the end of the road when we have finally eradicated all friction points and everybody can go have a beer together. The power-seekers won't self-disband. They will keep finding a target after target because that's where they get their kicks from. Entire fucking history of USSR is littered with different power-hungry people using noble goals to chop their competitors' heads off. It didn't end well for them and it didn't end well for the country. I'm happy we are not at the head-chopping stage yet, but I keep wondering how long do we have left...
  • KirillPanov 6y ago
    > a power-hungry person can have the pleasure of telling 1000 other people what to say, and financially obliterate those who don't comply > Some people are more power-hungry than others True. Also, some people are more violent than others, but we try to keep those away from the rest of the population and gradually titrate them out of the gene pool. I would love to live in a society that treated insatiable thirst for power the same way.
• mc32 6y ago
  I don't fully understand this move by eBay. They let people sell the books without problem. Then the rights holder withdrew the IP from circulation (their right) and then SUDDENLY and simultaneously eBay arrived at the same conclusion as the rights holder? Like overnight they came to the same realization? I don’t get the problem with the Asian depiction (apparently the eyes are problematic). But looking at block prints (and other art) from East Asia, many use the same representation[1] By the way, this seems like a kind of DRM but without the encryption part. Instead of encryption DRM is being enforced by cultural zeitgeist. Who would have thought that as a possibility? [1] https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ukiyo-e-japanese-woodblock-prints-thumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=https://mymodernmet.com/ukiyo-e-japanese-woodblock-prints/&tbnid=02fAoDWG0En3CM&vet=1&docid=noDarw6Iszr4nM&w=1200&h=628&hl=en-us&source=sh/x/im https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https://mymodernmet.com...
  • ggggtez 6y ago
    I get the vague impression that Dr. Seuss' estate asked eBay to do this, but maybe we'll never know.
    • mc32 6y ago
      Imagine if Kanye or the estate of Biggie Smalls or Pat Benatar, Springsteen or whoever said, eh, you know I denounce my music. I take it back. Stop playing it. Take it off the radio, internet, boot sales, flea markets, used music stores... Is that reasonable?
      • krrrh 6y ago
        This isn’t even that theoretical. Born again Christian Kanye has expressed regret for some of his older secular music. A lot of Kanye fans live in fear of him suddenly deleting his back catalogue from the streaming services. If the major resellers of physical media start respecting the wishes of rights holders then we’ve really swung the pendulum too far away from open culture and the public domain.
• throwitaway1235 6y ago
  Just build your own eBay.
• jackson1442 6y ago
  I'm curious if this was at the request of Seuss's family. Yes, it seems to be overreaching, but I can see why that family might want to limit the spread of materials that don't present themselves in the best manner.
• fortran77 6y ago
  I took a look at those books (you can find them on many book piracy sites.) They really were dated. Some of the drawings made me wince. I'll bet, too, they didn't sell very well. If the publisher and the author's estate wants to stop selling them, that's their right, of course. No problems whatsoever. But eBay stopping the secondary market is just silly. People have a legitimate reason to buy and sell used books, even ones that go against modern sensibilities.
• throwaway2474 6y ago
  Imagine the outrage (from the same groups advocating this) if this were China, deleting books about, say, traditional Western Chinese Muslim culture.
  • 3131s 6y ago
    It's not the same group of people, not entirely at least.
• hytdstd 6y ago
  I just checked out "If I ran the Zoo", and there's a page with an illustration of African people depicted like monkeys. How do people feel about this-- an overreaction or completely justified?
  • Rapzid 6y ago
    Is this the African island of Yerka page? If so, that prob hasn't aged well for 2021 but... Eh, just looks more like a stylized/caricature more than anything.
  • bufferoverflow 6y ago
    Aren't all people like monkeys?
• Kaze404 6y ago
  It's hilarious to me that a publishing company decided to cancel themselves, simultaneously painting the picture that they're the villain and the victim depending on which side of the political spectrum you are. And the best part is that it worked perfectly. In this very thread you can see people saying this is the fault of "woke Twitter mobs" when literally nobody asked for this. Great PR move by them, and as always outrage is the best way to sell.
• kenneth 6y ago
  Step one of Farenheit 451? Science fiction has been quite good about warning us of the dangers of authoritarianism, censorship, and the thought police. One thing it didn't imagine is that we'd do it to ourselves without a central power to push the changes. It's often used as an argument by the left that it's not a problem because it's private citizen and companies doing the censorship and enforcement, and in a free market that's a good thing. I actually find that extra worrying
• hintymad 6y ago
  I was wondering if Americans learned history of other countries in school. HN users or Americans in general probably think China is a totalitarian country, but even Chinese students are taught in both elementary and high schools, repeatedly, that an authoritarian regime always started with moralizing everything, always started with telling its citizens to hate their neighbors, and always told their citizens that misinformation and disinformation was evil. So if you listened to Voice of America, you would be convicted. If you questioned scientists for telling you that an acre of rice fields could easily produce 30,000 KGs of grains, you would be punished. If you lived in East Germany during cold war, of course your neighbor was so evil that it was your duty to spy on them and to report them. Oh and yes, many people were executed for questioning the ideology of Pol Pot. Guess how many people during the Pol Pot era believed that their neighbors deserved the death? But of course, the US is the lighthouse of righteousness and justice and democracy, right? Our government didn't do anything wrong, right? It's just a few congressmen asking companies to be responsible for the evil disinformation and misinformation, right? The 1619 Project won Pulitzer because its narrative was for our own conscience, right? We teach kids critical race theory so they can hate an entire race but it's for our own good, right? We did all these for our moral high ground, what's wrong with it, right?
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
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  • refenestrator 6y ago
    History is written by the victors in all cases. If Hua and Deng didn't win against the Gang of Four, you'd have a different history of the cultural revolution. Fortunately, they won. America's won too much, even when we're wrong or stupid, and our historical frame has suffered.
    • unityByFreedom 6y ago
      Economies are not zero sum. Every transaction has winners on both sides. People need different things at different times.
• chrischattin 6y ago
  You can buy Mien kampf on Ebay.
• Consultant32452 6y ago
  Once upon a time there was a big social movement of the 99% against the 1% called Occupy Wall Street. Now there is a strange coincidence where every major multi-national mega-corp is pushing wokeness. All our attention is being spent on whose lives matter most, who is wearing a mask, what books are banned, and if Coca Cola thinks you should be "less white." It's best we not be too concerned about the Trillions of dollars in wealth transfer that have been going on the last few years with the bailouts and monetary policy.
• dukeofdoom 6y ago
  Literally, fled a communist country where my Dad could go to jail and be tortured for owning books banned by the communists.
• plandis 6y ago
  The fact that you can go buy many different copies of Mein Kampf off eBay but not Dr. Seuss is.. interesting? I suppose they can do whatever they want on their platform but that just seems a bit arbitrary to me.
• swayvil 6y ago
  "And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street” “If I Ran the Zoo” “McElligot’s Pool” “On Beyond Zebra!” “Scrambled Eggs Super!” “The Cat’s Quizzer” because the books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong. We have truly entered the age of infinite bullshit.
• rozim 6y ago
  Tom and Jerry, you're next: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammy_Two_Shoes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammy_Two_Shoes
  • psyc 6y ago
    Oh, did you miss the Tom & Jerry thread? That was a week or two ago.
• frankydp 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comstock_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comstock_laws
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• raindropm 6y ago
  Someone in the comment mention they care about how Chinese illustration portrayed in Dr. Seuss book. Then I think about those old European drawing(in the age of colonialism) of Asian country around 1600s. So outrageous when you see it today. That is not how my country and people looks like! Should we ostracize those too? Point is, I don't think everything is intentionally racist. Ok, sometimes it is, but many time it's just the limited understanding of different culture(and the rush of deadline that you need to produce some imagery NOW)
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• bpodgursky 6y ago
  On top of all the censorship concerns, refusing to continue publication of these books actually is a damning indictment of the copyright system. The author has been dead for decades, and yet these books are still under copyright for decades more — to an organization that refuses to print them! IMO a copyright holder that REFUSES TO PUBLISH books they hold monopoly rights over should lose that copyright immediately. Anything else is ridiculous.
• BLKNSLVR 6y ago
  I speak for the tweetle beetles. We tweetle beetles may battle with paddles in puddles in bottles on poodles that partake of noodles, but when noodle-eating poodles talk politics in limericks it ticks off their ticks who stick sticks in their backs to start building shacks in which to investigate facts... then our battles are shackled to meanings and leanings and motions of oceans an ocean away from the childish motivations become tired contrivations for sad populations.
• qwerty456127 6y ago
  Political correctness is a horror
• p1necone 6y ago
  I think a lot of commenters are missing a crucial piece of information about this. These books are being removed from publishing by the owner of the IP, don't blame ebay for this. I would argue that this isn't really censorship, although it is muddied by the original author being dead, and this being a company set up to manage his IP by his wife. (I would also argue that ebay removing them in general isn't something to scream about, private companies should be allowed to curate their systems however they want. But that's a different argument)
  • Noctem 6y ago
    Ceasing to publish new copies is different than disallowing the exchange of existing copies. The owner of the IP chose to do the former, eBay chose to do the latter.
• marshmallow_12 6y ago
  Dr Suess was undeniably a racist, but i think at this stage people are looking to find stuff that may be offensive to someone, somewhere and then ban it. What next? Mr Potato Head has gone gender neutral. i think we are overestimating children.I doubt the next Suess free generation will be less racist as a result. What they will have is no appreciation of one of the most talented childrens writers ever. The only author who has managed to make poetry interesting to children, who can spark their imagination with genuine wit. For what reason? Roald Dahl was genuinely anti-semitic. I still enjoy his books, but they don't come close to the Doctor. The purge of childrens toys seem to be that they are poisoned with outdated and racist notions and they are poisoning the minds of children who grow up as racist. But its absurd, intentional conditioning of childrens minds by a social convention is acceptable. How can this possibly be the reality. Only totalitarian regimes put such effort into brainwashing children. I'm not doing justice to the issue. If someone can word my points better, i shall be grateful.
  • krrrh 6y ago
    He was actively campaigning against racism well before he adopted the name Dr Seuss, even if he occasionally fetishized foreign cultures along with caricatures of local cultures. https://twitter.com/daBookdragon/status/1366572785015943169?s=20 https://twitter.com/daBookdragon/status/1366572785015943169?...
    • marshmallow_12 6y ago
      i remember seeing a ww2 cartoon caricaturising japanese americans as a 5th column. You can argue that that was the spirit of the times and he isn't to blame, but it does feel wrong to me. (granted Japan were fearsome opponents) seeing that cartoon, i realised that the good Doctor wasn't quite the lovely man that comes through in his books.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• mancerayder 6y ago
  Burning books, the next evolution of our enlightened approach to the past. Because racial justice will be solved by policing language and imagery, even in the past, and not via economic means, class power dynamics being examined, analyzing the political system, or anything else a postmodernist approach embraced by corporate America would find uncomfortable.
• swayvil 6y ago
  In the past, population-wide rhetorical power was reserved for politicians and artists. Now the stupid mob has it too. And boy are they stupid. Humorless, tasteless and shallow too. Who needs fascists when you've got twitter? More censoring to come.
• irrational 6y ago
  This makes me sad. The Mulberry street one was always my favorite. Why don't they just find an illustrator to fix the illustrations and find a poet to fix any problematic text? Surely that wouldn't be too difficult. Just think of how much money they would make from everyone buying correct versions of the books.
• irrational 6y ago
  I keep thinking I can just keep my head down and ignore all this stupidity. But then I remember that this is the world my children will have to live in. Sigh.
• yowlingcat 6y ago
  How ironic will it be if the Seuss holding corporation discovers the Streisand effect this way. I am sure that the late Seuss would find it droll.
• pengaru 6y ago
  Sounds like one of what will likely become many stupid decisions creating opportunity for an ebay competitors to gain market share in the online auction space.
• steele 6y ago
  I have no problem with books retiring to respect the original vision instead of revise it to be more palatable to the zeitgeist. Modern society should move away from those things that actively made people feel less human and indoctrinate their children with those ideas. You will still have access to the materials. And Dr. Seuss estate is free to do what they want to highlight the positive while reduce the tarnish of Dr. Seuss commercially published racist works.
• ehwhyreally 6y ago
  https://www.ebay.com.au/p/237329539 https://www.ebay.com.au/p/237329539
• anotherfish 6y ago
  Getting rid of books always gets rid of the problem. It has always worked. It says so in the latest History book. The world is only 3 years old, right? /s
• wmf 6y ago
  Note that at least eBay is not making up the rules on the fly; their "offensive material policy" has existed since at least 2018 and it includes "we don't allow items that promote or glorify hatred, violence, racial, sexual or religious intolerance". http://web.archive.org/web/20180705090957/https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/prohibited-restricted-items/offensive-material-policy?id=4324 http://web.archive.org/web/20180705090957/https://www.ebay.c...
• swiley 6y ago
  "why is bitcoin popular when you can just use paypal?" Don't like miners profiting? stop making bitcoin so valuable.
• anm89 6y ago
  A part of me gets happy when I see this. If you are going to be insane, at least be consistently insane, and force everyone to reconcile with the insanity. Lest our children be exposed to the horrors of Dr. Seuss.
• andreskytt 6y ago
  That’s actually an interesting challenge. It’s just good manners not to offend someone you are communicating with. Makes sense, keeps the society going and has done so for millennia. Til now the number of people you might be communicating with has been geographically limited and therefore avoiding offense was doable. But now the interweb not only expands the number of counterparts, but makes it very difficult to know, what might be offensive. Two ways this can go, I think. One, people learn not to consume things they find offensive and be less offended by things. Two, this communication challenge will serve as an balancing loop for globalization and shrink the world back down to where we can still manage. I’m afraid, it’s going to be the latter.
• Klwohu 6y ago
  Haha, spooky! This reminds me of those books about the future I was required to read as a kid which are banned now too.
• spoonjim 6y ago
  So you can buy a Khmer Rouge scarf on eBay but not “The Cat’s Quizzer.” Makes perfect sense to me.
• chmod600 6y ago
  Morality has a dark side. When used to judge yourself, it's a powerful way to cut through the rationalizations for bad behavior, and hopefully lead to better behavior. When used to judge others, morality almost always leads to self-righteousness, and contempt for people that don't live up to your standards. Usually the "standards" also change rapidly in a cycle to feed one's own self-worth by judging others more and more harshly. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem witch trials, and the Red Scare are all examples of morality going awry. And we are in one of these cycles now... there is no doubt in my mind.
• chmod600 6y ago
  Are there any examples in history or literary fiction (including sci-fi) where the ones that ban books and punish thoughts are the good guys? It's just crazy to me. Electing Trump was pretty crazy, too, but the idea that "liberals" would be on the side of burning books and militarizing the capital would have been unimaginable mere months ago.
• chmod600 6y ago
  Why is it the only remedy that we seem capable of considering is exclusion? Pushing people and ideas away is a punishment that hurts both sides and offers little chance of redemption or learning. Is exclusion even a remedy? And if it is, aren't there almost always better ones? I grew up pretty conservative, but the liberals I knew were always very welcoming. And I have a much more balanced outlook now. How will that kind of personal growth happen if our first reaction is to exclude?
• bigmattystyles 6y ago
  This is stupid - of the things you can still buy on eBay are Huck Finn, Gone with the Wind, Birth of a Nation and some of the original versions of Tintin in the Congo just to name a few. I'm pretty liberal but this is eye rolling.
• chmod600 6y ago
  There is one person with enough credibility to tell the Left to be liberal again: Barack Obama. If he were still president, he would have never let it get this far, but he restrains himself because he doesn't want to undermine the Presidency or dilute his legacy. But he needs to lay some ground rules: liberalism is the vision of the Left, and book burning, race obsession, antipatriotism, and cancel culture won't get there. Nobody on the right has any credibility on the left, so they can shout all they want and it won't make a difference. Biden doesn't have much credibility either. It needs to be the strongest person on the Left to define its destiny, so it must be Obama.
• lgleason 6y ago
  As dis-heartening as this story is, compared to a couple of years ago, it is encouraging to see lots of comments from people beginning to wake up to what is going on with this craziness and not being modded here. Free speech is about protecting the right of the un-popular and views that some may find utterly repugnant. Why? because, as we are seeing with all of the woke craziness, when you don't stand up for everyones ability (including views you do not like) to freely speak, the censorship will end up being turned against you. The key things with all of this, is that if enough people were to collectively have the courage to push back against this craziness it would stop...people recognizing that there is a problem is a good first step.
  • anonisko 6y ago
    Too many people support the development of powerful weapons without considering what happens when their enemies get a hold of them.
    • illirik 6y ago
      The “weapon” here is just basic conscientiousness. A publisher decided to stop publishing some books because they denigrate people, and eBay decided that they did not want to be facilitating the sale of books that denigrate people. We are not talking about an H-bomb - there is no power structure wielding a “cancel button” here.
      • stef25 6y ago
        > there is no power structure wielding a “cancel button” here There absolutely is. Ebay is nipping in the bud a potential social media lynching. One misstep nowadays and the CEO spends weeks grovelling about how they're still learning and are determined to do better and thank you Twitter mob for pointing this out. You can't buy Doctor Seuss, but you can buy "The Anarchist Arsenal", hydrogen peroxide, acetone and a few pounds of screws in the same cart. Edited typo by / buy
        • legutierr 6y ago
• yawaworht1978 6y ago
  It is so hard to decide whether racism or racist hints (in the UK it is more discreet, disguised as classist but all the same) should be banned because racism is not compatible with todays civilized society or if it should be allowed so the stupid racists can expose their bigoted selves. EBay has all the rights to do this, private platform and all that. Having Such books in the product portfolio is contaminating the brand. Somebody interestingly said that working class latinos or immigrants in general do not care much or primarily about this kind of speech or imagery. Nothing could be further from the truth, they have human feelings and perceptions as well and the economical dependency makes people pretend to not care. Of course the people are offended, often for a very long time. Every step towards eradicating racists and bigots from society should be applauded. They have never brought anything good to society and their freedom to express themselves and edgy comments were never funny. Will not happen in my lifetime but every little step towards that is welcome. The author is most welcome to change the title pictures to something deemed less offensive. You cannot expect your freedom of expression being enforced on something like eBay to promote the broadcasting and emission of your crap. It is not just the c level who do not like it, maybe some other employees do feel offended by beeing part of such a company.
  • mikaeluman 6y ago
    The author is dead. Perhaps you would like to ask authors of books from earlier centuries to modify them so as to not be offensive. Are you serious?
• mikaeluman 6y ago
  It’s bad enough that the company self-cancels the books. But now we also can’t even have a secondary market for what already exists. People have severely underestimated the influence these woke people have. In my company, we receive forms from clients asking us to survey our employees for their sexual preferences and racial categories, essentially based on the same nomenclature used in nazi Germany. It is completely bizarre and abhorrent. At least this particular piece of poison is thus far resisted in Sweden. All of this is connected and needs to stop. It starts with each and everyone of us no longer “just going along” with each new book burning and each new forbidden word they introduce.
  • flarg 6y ago
    I sat in class while we learnt a carol which included the lines 'even if he's black sir'. It sucked. Not just offensive. To kill a mockingbird is a great book but not suitable for kids in it's current form but I don't think it should be rewritten. This isn't woke, it's decency and kindness.
    • mns 6y ago
      You can't just go out there and delete history, no matter how bad it was, because you know what happens when you do that? You will end up repeating the past mistakes. The book shows how society was back then, you can't just all of a sudden decide that it didn't exist and somehow put kids in a bubble and hide our past from them.
      • altacc 6y ago
        It isn't about deleting history, it's about not teaching the same thing as was taught in the past. Normalisation of the depiction of racist serotypes in books & media normalises racism. It's subtle but in conversations I've had with PoC, they point out all these subtlies that they notice but were an invisible part of my conditioning growing up. The history still exists, for when it's appropriate to study the history of race relations, but if you're teaching pre-school & primary school children to read you don't need to do so with images of black people dressed as tribesmen which normalise racist depictions of those people.
• stadia42 6y ago
  This news brings hope to people who want to see Mr. Trump reelected in 2024.
• dilawar 6y ago
  This is just crazy. As crazy as banning Apu on Simpsons. I am an Indian and despite being one of easily provoked people -- especially on social media -- I found the whole Apu episode to be a knee jerk reaction.
• t8e56vd4ih 6y ago
  am i blind or does the article not say why eBay bands those books?
• imwillofficial 6y ago
  This is a dark day for America. This will not end well.
• mesozoic 6y ago
  As usual with ebay they'll do it for about a couple months till no one cares then it will easily be gotten around and they won't care. Knowing this from the cancelled items in other hobbies I follow.
• YeBanKo 6y ago
  You can easily find Mein Kampf on eBay, but Dr. Seuss is too far.
• YeBanKo 6y ago
  The article gives absolutely no context as to why exactly these books were deemed offensive. > “books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong.” And this is it.
  • thinkingemote 6y ago
    defining the offense is counteractive as it also defines the parameters for the discussion around it. Better instead to leave it vague so discussion is almost impossible. It also allows the offense to change over time.
• remarkEon 6y ago
  I'm want to make a slippery slope argument, that a year or two from now Dr. Seuss books will be banned all together. "He wrote some racist books before, don't you know?" It's really easy to imagine this, given other machinations in the broader cultural complex in the US. I don't think this will actually happen. I'm optimistic that enough people here, who obviously work at the companies that would be in charge of the said delisting, would stand up and say that this kind of action is lame. It's anti-history, it's a total waste of resources. It's also just really boring. We have a lot of other problems to work on. Can we focus on those please?
• aylmao 6y ago
  There's some interesting threads here. I do understand the conversation around free speech and censorship has been top of mind lately, but IMO a lot of the comments here are getting carried away and missing a point that is crucial in this instance: these are children's books. As much as I disagree with book-burning and support not only free speech, but also the healthy debate around what it constitutes, I think all of that is rather unrelated to this specific article. Children don't have the same context or critical capacity to decide if a view is good or not. If a child encounters some sexist commentary, the child will absorb and imitate it. There's already a lot of institutionalized control over what children consume for this reason— from toys designed to stimulate their development and TV designed around safety and positive lessons, to school, where the curriculum is designed not only to develop mental ability but also healthy social skills. These are decisions institutions make, be it PBS, Hasbro, Scholastic, some bureau of education, etc. Let's make sure we don't end up in a Fahrenheit 451 situation, sure. These books are still going to exist, nobody is burning them or punishing whomever reads them— let's keep it that way. But when it comes to content that's widely available for children, I think the already established approach of constantly revising and improving what is easy to consume is a good one, and we should keep doing it.
  • thinkingemote 6y ago
    Ironically, the books originally targeted for destruction in the novel Fahrenheit 451 were those that society universally found abhorrent to children - bigotry, pornography, racism, sexism etc. (The book then deals with the fallout from that in the years afterwards as any book gets targeted) "If a child encounters some sexist commentary, the child will absorb and imitate it." This therefore means that the millions in America and around the world that have read these childrens books as children, or who had these books read to them by their parents are racist and sexist now, right? Or do you believe that children do not really absorb and imitate things they read but in general they might? Are these books responsible for the shape of society now therefore? Where does your logic take us? Protecting children is more important than free speech is what I get from your comment. Is that correct?
    • dragonwriter 6y ago
• manexploitsman 6y ago
  Wait, what? Maybe eBay should first ban these? https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=germany+3rd+reich https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=germany+3rd+reich https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ussr+flag https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=ussr+flag
• andy_ppp 6y ago
  Does anyone have a link to the (supposedly) racist imagery, I want to decide for myself if this really is a problem or not...
• zby 6y ago
  Does anybody know what was the content that was the reason for the ban? The article only quotes: “Dr. Seuss Enterprises has stopped publication of this book due to its negative portrayal of some ethnicities,” - but I am curious what was it exactly.
• coldtea 6y ago
  America has really lost the plot...
• mcdevilkiller 6y ago
  I can't wait till the day people get offended by their own breathing, to be honest.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• lprd 6y ago
  Prices are skyrocketing now for these books. I suspect The Berenstain Bears collection are next, along with whatever else cancel/woke-culture deems unacceptable for society. https://twitter.com/jeremykauffman/status/1367510127704739840 https://twitter.com/jeremykauffman/status/136751012770473984...
• pharmakom 6y ago
  I support eBay's right to decide what is sold on their platform, and this is not a first amendment issue, but I feel like eBay should have a more hands-off policy, like "if you are legally allowed to buy/sell this product in your jurisdiction then we will list it". eBay should be a neutral platform.
• dandare 6y ago
  RE books not suitable for kids. My 4 year old asked me to reed him a new book he got from who knows where; It was Noah's Ark picture book, looking like this https://www.google.com/search?q=noah%27s+ark+child+book https://www.google.com/search?q=noah%27s+ark+child+book. Right on the third page "God killed all people because they were wicked". My son was upset and demanded an explanation, which I struggled to provide. I have realised how strange it is that we tolerate child books describing mass murder in the name of religion.
  • ceilingcorner 6y ago
    > which I struggled to provide. I don't mean to be rude, but this mostly just sounds like you're not knowledgeable on the topic.
• mnd999 6y ago
  Yawn, more politics. This used to be a technology forum.
• Black101 6y ago
  https://libgen.is/search.php?req=And+to+Think+That+I+Saw+It+on+Mulberry+Street&open=0&res=25&view=simple&phrase=1&column=def https://libgen.is/search.php?req=And+to+Think+That+I+Saw+It+... https://libgen.is/search.php?req=If+I+Ran+the+Zoo&open=0&res=25&view=simple&phrase=1&column=def https://libgen.is/search.php?req=If+I+Ran+the+Zoo&open=0&res... https://libgen.is/search.php?req=On+Beyond+Zebra%21&open=0&res=25&view=simple&phrase=1&column=def https://libgen.is/search.php?req=On+Beyond+Zebra%21&open=0&r... https://libgen.is/search.php?req=Scrambled+Eggs+Super%21&open=0&res=25&view=simple&phrase=1&column=def https://libgen.is/search.php?req=Scrambled+Eggs+Super%21&ope... https://libgen.is/search.php?req=McElligot%E2%80%99s+Pool&open=0&res=25&view=simple&phrase=1&column=def https://libgen.is/search.php?req=McElligot%E2%80%99s+Pool&op... The Cat’s Quizzer
  • hntrader 6y ago
    Someone should build a scihub/libgen that contains an exhaustive catalogue of books cancelled by Amazon/Ebay/schools/etc. Not that we can't already find these books online, but it'd be nice to have a centralized repo with just those.
• sjaak 6y ago
  To everyone defending eBays actions in this thread, I have a humble request. Please ask yourself this: What would it take for you to say that the Woke movement has gone too far? Think about it for a second. Remember what you decided on. Perhaps, in a few weeks or months from now, you will understand the people lambasting this decision from eBay. The concept is explained here in more detail: https://newdiscourses.com/2020/06/woke-breaking-point/ https://newdiscourses.com/2020/06/woke-breaking-point/
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• pineaux 6y ago
  1222 comments and counting. HN's open nerve. Easily triggered hackers
• crististm 6y ago
  That would not happen in the America that we looked up at when I was a kid.
• dudeinjapan 6y ago
  Oh the places you'll go ...or maybe you won't Those places aren't safe! You should stay right at home! A space that is safe is all that you need! With only safe books safety-guaranteed to read! No insensitive cartoons Kids can't handle those No Chinese men in Chinese hats and Chinese clothes! Those books are problematic Those books should be banned Besides they're unpopular There's no market demand! Let's have them cancelled! Let's have them delisted! Let's burn them, unlearn them and deny they existed! It's the impact that matters not the author's intentions We'd better change the past--fast, fast! before someone today gets offended
• RaceWon 6y ago
  I'm a 60 year old fan of Rap and Hip Hop... is Ebay going to delist Wiz Khalifa songs to name one artist. I won't quote the lyrics here, but his tunes often denigrate the ladies, and refer to them as paid sex workers. Let's talk about that.
  • tim333 6y ago
    There's also Shakespeare and The Bible. Neither really that PC.
• avereveard 6y ago
  "Dr Seuss should have built its own eBay" - The hacker new community, if it wasn't a hypocritical bunch But no, apparently the hive mind that cheered the private company actions when they suited their political belief, now are suddenly in full doublespeak figuring out a way to condemn this while supporting the former.
• MartinAlbertsen 6y ago
  I find this very disturbing and wrong. This is exactly when moderation turns into censorship. I understand why certain material can be deemed dangerous or wrong to have in public. There might be information that is intended, or has very high likeliness to be used, for harmful use. It can be filtered out - although I believe it will most often just keep it in the dark. Think "how to cook meth at home" or "how to make a bomb". Thats another talk for another day. But this case is driven by fear of public opinion, people being offended (too easily) and trying to erase events from history. If you see a negative or wrong stereotype used in literature, use the chance to talk to the kids. That will break down stereotypes and teach kids about the time that they are born in. Also. Hitler happened. It's a thing. Reading "Mein Kampf" does not make you a nazi or dangerous. It makes you informed. Censoring it out does not change the fact that it happened. And we need all generations, current and future to understand the horrible that has happened. Not just the beautiful things. Ebay and Amazon (and I'm sure many other companies) should show some character and have a bit more backbone!
• tibbydudeza 6y ago
  It is not Fahrenheit 451 scenario we are talking here. Societal norms and values changes and what was acceptable in 1950 is no longer in 2021. Those cultural artifacts reflecting those times are still available and preserved but for good reason publishers don't want them to be in the mass market.
• say_it_as_it_is 6y ago
  As someone without a star on his belly, I feel like harm is being done to me every time I read the story about the star bellied sneetches. I do not think that children nor adults need to be reminded about how inadequate they are in a world of star bellied sneetches.
• joduplessis 6y ago
  Seems censorship isn't just limited authoritarian governments. Super sad to see.
• KDJohnBrown 6y ago
  Manufactured outrage designed by Republicans to cover up their attempt to violently overthrow the government. To quote Donald Trump Jr, this is a Nothing Burger.
• Melting_Harps 6y ago
  So, are you people still not seeing what Bitcoin's MVP is yet? I've stayed away from all of this non-sense, but I'm sure if I go back to my family old dentist office from the 90s they likely have all the Dr. Suess' books in the mini play room area where I must have read them all like 10 times each. Honestly, I think digitizing these books and putting them on a epub file with a royalty IP based model paid to his estate would be a cool DeFi project. You could spin this up in a matter of hours with a small team, too. It's sad, cancel culture needs to die already... people need to stop bitching on social media and try and live their lives in reality if we're ever going to get over this non-sense. I recently watched The Maxx, and I seriously forgot how amazing it was visually after having seen it in the 90s, but I also realized that something like this could never be made today in the US. It dealt with dark themes: rape, murder, abuse, social anxiety, school shootings etc... And a part of makes me think that these last 2 decades have been a horrible time to be a kid, everything is so subdued and watered down that raging over Dr. Suess seems almost predictable. This era as a teenager/young adult was kind of cool as the Internet proved to be a useful venue to escape that horrid reality, but these as formative years will be a total drain on their psyche and re-enforces a stunted sense of maturity: the extremes on both ends got far wider and social media amplified the worst of both with dire consequences.
• thih9 6y ago
  The title seems click bait. At first I thought all books are being delisted, turns out this affects six less popular titles. > The six discontinued Dr. Seuss books aren’t among the late author’s best-known works. Wikipedia has more information about the most popular of these books and its criticism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Ran_the_Zoo#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Ran_the_Zoo#Criticism
  • dx034 6y ago
    Most news websites also use "If I ran the zoo" as this one is the most clear cut. I had to search around a lot to find the example for McElligot's Pool. There it's just one illustration that could be viewed as offensive and it's much less obvious than some of the others. I don't understand why they don't just hire an illustrator to fix some of the racist features depicted there. As far as I can tell, only "If I ran the Zoo" has an offensive line, all others are just about a minority of the illustrations.
• mensetmanusman 6y ago
  At first I thought this was like digital book burning, but then I realized a better analogy is digital book abortions. I.e. the books exist with their internal information/code, but are deemed to challenging to be allowed to exist.
• __s 6y ago
  Wanting to see what these are offensive for, Cat's Quizzer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yeNj1akz30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yeNj1akz30 Which contains the question "How old do you have to be to be a Japanese?" Meanwhile https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/books-nix-books-dr-seuss-works-halted-racist-76198355 https://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/books-nix-boo... lists reasons: > In “And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street," an Asian person is portrayed wearing a conical hat, holding chopsticks, and eating from a bowl. “If I Ran the Zoo” includes a drawing of two bare-footed African men wearing what appear to be grass skirts with their hair tied above their heads. https://vancouversun.com/entertainment/books/here-are-the-wrong-illustrations-that-got-six-dr-seuss-books-cancelled https://vancouversun.com/entertainment/books/here-are-the-wr... Goes over all 6
• mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Scroll down, see Dr. Seuss compared to Hitler, close thread Stay sane people, this is exactly the distraction they want
• AzzieElbab 6y ago
  Book burnings as a service
• christkv 6y ago
  Meanwhile feel free to buy your copy of Mein Kampf and pair it up with a SS uniform and other paraphilia on eBay.
• jaygray0919 6y ago
  This will restore Dr. Seuss to the New York Times best seller list. Every brand now needs to consider new methods to attract hostility - sales will go up.
• whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  What I don’t really get is the cancelling of a subset of his work. If he did the drawings and those are deemed racist enough to cancel his work why are the company still ok with profiting off the rest of his work? He was either racist or he wasn’t and if he’s racist and that’s enough for cancellation then stop the circulation of all his work and stop profiting off it. Like be consistent with your logic, think if it came down to stop profiting off Seuss at all and removing him from children’s culture entirely people might approach this more rationally but instead it’s “yeah he’s racist but we’re still going to profit off the work where he didn’t draw racist caricatures.” Just find it interesting the cancellation becomes granular once the property is profitable enough. If the company really cared they’d stop selling all his work entirely.
• jacquesm 6y ago
  n-gate is going to have a field day with this discussion.
• nautilus12 6y ago
  It was a pleasure to burn
• nautilus12 6y ago
  I saw a previous comment mention why not ban all his books if you are going to ban a subset. I dont know if they were trying to force the argument down the slippery slope to its logical conclusion to illucidate its irrationality, but this is exactly how we end up in Farenheit 451.
• zthrowaway 6y ago
  For those on here who say “cancel culture doesn’t exist”, are you seeing it yet?
• bkmrkr 6y ago
  I simply don't get it. Mein Kumf by Hitler is allowed and is the "#1 Best Seller in European Politics Books" but Dr Seuss books are banned.
• kyle_martin1 6y ago
  This is absolutely ridiculous.
• reilly3000 6y ago
  This is a foul collection of dire comments. I find it pretty asinine that the the personal choice of private individuals about how to distribute IP has brought out this vitriol. That is their choice, and I’m gobsmacked at the moral panic here. Don’t you Milton Freidman conservatives believe in the Right to Choose? Oh you thought Biden did this by edict? You’ve just swallowed some KBG propaganda. You think that classic literature is being burned at the stake? Go look at those titles and decide for yourself. From where I stand, the comments in this threat represents the worst of fear-mongering, retrograde thought. Ought we resurrect Briar Rabbit, because it was unfairly cancelled? I’ll be laying atop the pile of books when the Firemen come to burn them. That isn’t this, and that isn’t now. Rush Limbaugh was out crying about apocalypse of Political Correctness since the early 90’s. It was a messaging strategy to defend the power of his demographic against moral pressures. I can’t believe this pervades the HN ethos. Rush was Wrong. For the record I am black, and I don’t particularly care for being depicted as a zoo animal in children’s books. I’m not demanding those books be ‘disappeared’, but I appreciate the Seuss estate’s choice to retire these titles, and defend eBay’s ability to choose which products they distribute on their marketplace. How did a movement who’s message was ‘stop police from killing unarmed black people with impunity’ unleash this farce?
• aww_dang 6y ago
  The thread is lost if we narrowly focus on the distinction between public and private censorship. Yes, the distinction is important, but it is not the entirety of the issue. Consider the following: The gov. has discriminatory hiring practices. The private sector has discriminatory hiring practices. Yes, the state's monopoly role is an important distinction, but it does not mean that we cannot object to a culture of intolerance or the normalization of intolerance.
• antattack 6y ago
  I much prefer a solution, that is not favored in US, which is to add description to the offending work explaining why it is considered inappropriate, instead of banning it, like it never existed. I consider it a reinforcement learning.
• Cyberthal 6y ago
  Free speech regimes fail and are replaced by those that censor, because censoring exercises power, whereas free speech exercises none. Thus people attracted to power will find some way to censor, and then to increase censorship. The exception is when free speech is being used as a wedge to destroy the old regime, in which case free speech exercises power, because it is being used to commit lese majeste and revolution. Truth wins in the long run, when everyone is dead. Power wins in the short run, while the relevant actors are still alive. That's why it's called power. On the libertarian left-hand side of the scales of state, one has the virtuous population's dedication to truth. On the authoritarian right-hand side of the scales, one has the ambitious population's attraction to power. Add leaden lies to the left-hand side until the two balance, and one discovers how much the regime rejects reality. See Curtis Yarvin for further details.
• antattack 6y ago
  So I just 'read' Beyond Zebra' I found on youtube. Can someone explain why it is offensive (as per eBay)?
• marshmallow_12 6y ago
  what happens if the publishers find that Harry Potter Volume 3 is racist because the escaped murderer is called Black. (yes, I've read it. No spoiler alerts, please)
• OwlsParlay 6y ago
  I would probably be considered far to the left of most HN commentators, but I still find moves like this to be pointless. Ebay, Amazon, etc are all private companies. So I appreciate the point of view that they can operate as they like. But they really shouldn't be prejudiced as to what they sell on their platform, unless there's some form of law-breaking going on (for example the Anarchist's Cookbook). I'd prefer something at least like how WB handled older Looney Tunes or Disney handled the Muppets - add a disclaimer before relevant episodes explaining objectionable parts. But outright delisting from sale is wrong. Ultimately these types of moves are bandaids on the real problems we need to solve, like police reform, the schools-to-prison pipeline, the war on drugs, etc.
• kingkawn 6y ago
  Man imagine if you guys got so up in arms to defend people rather than to defend racist caricatures of people.
• TrispusAttucks 6y ago
  I wish society could embrace more the sentiment: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ~ Evelyn Beatrice Hall Because... ... "Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me" ~ Martin Niemöller
• 0dayz 6y ago
  I don't see this being a free speech issue when you read this: "Dr. Seuss Enterprises LP, which oversees Dr. Seuss’s publishing interests and ancillary areas, Tuesday said it had decided that six of the famed author’s books would no longer be published because they 'portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong.'" Since the publisher themselves made this decision to brand their books deemed offensive. Whenever or not books should be sold, if mein kampf can be sold then books should too.
• dominotw 6y ago
  I am not sure this is about free speech even though it looks like it on the surface. I personally think its a replacement of classic american culture with which most of new population ( immigrants, minorities ect) cannot identify with, something that "others" them. I talked to my extended circle of 'new comers' and no one cares about Dr. Suess and would prefer for it to be gone, so we don't have to be outsiders. I think this is just the start. Classic americanism would be relegated to museums in next 20 yrs. I remember only 10-20 yrs ago 'assimilation' was thing for immigrants. Assimilation meant learning about things like Dr. Suess. Now assimilation is not a thing anymore, might actually be considered offensive.
• heywherelogingo 6y ago
  It's time for secession. Rational, un-woke areas of countries need to declare independence from their failing woke governments. If you want to live in woke hell, choose a woke country. Rational people can live in rational countries. Talk of melting pots is quaint, and unworkable.
• wayoutthere 6y ago
  Just wanted to say that the books were not banned; Dr Seuss’ family decided to pull the books because yeah, the dude made some racist books. “Canceling” him would mean banning his entire catalog, which I haven’t heard anyone suggest. But this wasn’t the publisher; this was the copyright holder deciding they no longer wanted this speech in the world.
• tharne 6y ago
  I remember being in school decades ago and our very left-wing English teacher telling us about the Catholic Church's index of banned books, which included things like Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer. At the same time, you also had a big push by Evangelical groups in the U.S. to ban books like Deliverance from school due to their graphic sexual content. If you had told me then that in 2021, it would be secular liberal democrats pushing to ban books, I would have laughed in your face, but here we are, and I'm not laughing.
• kmeisthax 6y ago
  As someone who just wrote a very long comment about a week ago explaining why you can't call a publisher deciding not to publish something "censorship" (and I stand by it), I feel a lot more uneasy about curtailing third-party resale than I do a publisher deciding not to publish things. Third-party resale is one of the few checks on the otherwise unlimited market powers that copyright holders have; and this could wind up being precedential if applied beyond weird exception cases like racist books. I'm not going to rail against this particular action any further, because I do not believe in vice signalling and do not care for these books. I can already see people lining up to misinterpret Martin Niemöller and blow some dog-whistles, and I do not want to pitch my tent in their ideological camp. However, I could totally see Disney or Nintendo getting bright ideas to try and shut down legal resale markets for "vaulted" works in the name of profit.
• mcguire 6y ago
  https://www.seussville.com/statement-from-dr-seuss-enterprises/ https://www.seussville.com/statement-from-dr-seuss-enterpris... Statement from Dr. Seuss Enterprises March 2, 2021 Today, on Dr. Seuss’s Birthday, Dr. Seuss Enterprises celebrates reading and also our mission of supporting all children and families with messages of hope, inspiration, inclusion, and friendship. We are committed to action. To that end, Dr. Seuss Enterprises, working with a panel of experts, including educators, reviewed our catalog of titles and made the decision last year to cease publication and licensing of the following titles: And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street, If I Ran the Zoo, McElligot’s Pool, On Beyond Zebra!, Scrambled Eggs Super!, and The Cat’s Quizzer. These books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong. Ceasing sales of these books is only part of our commitment and our broader plan to ensure Dr. Seuss Enterprises’s catalog represents and supports all communities and families. The Dr. Seuss Experience – A wondrous world awaits!
  • asoneth 6y ago
    A few of these books are only incidentally racist so I hope Dr. Seuss Enterprises sees fit to tweak and re-release them similarly to the Richard Scarry classics[1] others have mentioned. Cultures have been bowlderizing kids books for as long as there have been kids books. Early versions of classic fairy tales had characters meet gristly ends -- skinned alive, forced to wear red-hot iron shoes, decapitated, eyes plucked out, etc. You can still find the original versions (including on eBay) but the kids section of the library generally carries the revised versions and no one was shocked that Disney decided not to animate the part of the story where the little mermaid had to choose between murdering the prince in his sleep and bathing her feet in his blood or committing suicide in the ocean. Though when kids are old enough to think critically about this sort of thing I generally agree with Philip Nel [2] that reading books and talking about them is a much better approach to problematic books, so I also hope they ultimately decide to release annotated versions as well. I just wouldn't stock those in the kids section of the library. [1] https://www.upworthy.com/8-changes-that-were-made-to-a-classic-richard-scarry-book-to-keep-up-with-the-times-progress https://www.upworthy.com/8-changes-that-were-made-to-a-class... [2] https://philnel.com/2010/09/19/censoring-ideology/ https://philnel.com/2010/09/19/censoring-ideology/ is
• helen___keller 6y ago
  I think this particular issue is less about speech or cancel culture. This wasn't even populism (the usual force behind cancel culture), this was power structures that exist above us acting in our "self interest". The Suess estate has all the right to denounce their own book or whatever. The real issue is that copyrights have been extended to last so damn long that something which ought to be in the public realm by now will be copyrighted for god knows how long (see: copyright term extension act). Ebay has all the right to delist whatever they want in a free market. The problem is that we don't have a particularly free online marketplace. Unlike meatspace, the vast majority of 2nd hand internet transactions happen in a handful of marketplaces (amazon, ebay, etsy, Facebook, etc). These handful of mega marketplaces have become an oligopoly, effectively. I don't know the solution here (regulations? antitrust action? government-run open source marketplaces that would therefore only ban actually-illegal listings?), but the problem is that a few companies have way too much power. In conclusion: Copyright has too much power. A handful of tech companies have too much power. Making this about cancel culture is, in my opinion, an absolute distraction of the real issues.
• IAmWorried 6y ago
  I'm thinking about making some kind of "Cancel Cancel Culture" browser extension that would automatically block sites that are known to engage in this kind of totalitarian behavior. I would make it open source and try to raise money with donations. It's not exactly the ideal solution, but I see no way to stop this madness unless we "fight fire with fire" so to speak. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
  • rolicia 6y ago
    I don't know if that would work. Cancel culture isn't really something that just manifests on websites like this. For example - what about the major universities, like Harvard and Berkeley that are basically exporting this stuff. Are you going to cancel them? I agree though that individuals need a way to take action to show that we are opposed to this woke nonsense. How we can do that...I am not sure
• boatsie 6y ago
  I think this falls into the “if you aren’t anti-racist, you’re racist” category of cancel culture. On the one hand, it sounds like a great idea that everyone should be against racism. However, it quickly becomes a slippery slope as it cascades. These books are racist, thus if you have/sell/buy them, that makes you racist too. And if you don’t do something about it, you should get canceled to. Someone put one of the offensive images on Twitter or Google scraped a site with one? Cancel them too. And if you don’t support canceling all of these things, that means you support these things and should be canceled too. Taken to the logical conclusion, anyone or anything that’s offended anyone should be canceled. Which is everyone and everything.
• walterlb 6y ago
  Yet eBay still lists this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Funny-Cartoon-Chinese-Man-Chopsticks-Car-Bumper-Sticker-Decal-SIZES/193392395367?hash=item2d0715c467:g:DdMAAOSwtbped6Pt https://www.ebay.com/itm/Funny-Cartoon-Chinese-Man-Chopstick... (And I won't even mention what is in the "similar items" on the page..)
• pmarsh 6y ago
  If you're a fan of the free market and want to see these books continue to be available go ahead and contact the rights owners and offer to purchase them.
• pvaldes 6y ago
  Not worse than Tintin in the Congo
• JohnTHaller 6y ago
  Not sure if I'd want to carry an 80 year old children's book talking about people with "slants for eyes" from 'countries you can't pronounce' myself, personally. ebay is, of course, free to carry what they'd like.
• boublepop 6y ago
  Just checking in to see if I have this right. So I can literally buy Mein Kampf from Amazon, but not a Dr. Seuss children’s book?
• swayvil 6y ago
  This smells like a distraction. What might we be distracted from? Maybe the FBI's present shenanigans over encryption.
• skyde 6y ago
  Also should we ban all book with picture of African tribes in case children are not smart enough to understand not all. Lack people live like this? Ex: https://imgur.com/gallery/6QwwrFb https://imgur.com/gallery/6QwwrFb
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• rekabis 6y ago
  The fact that you can buy Mein Kampf on eBay (along with thousands of things far more objectionable than a few children’s books) is what makes eBay’s actions that much more hypocritical and reprehensible. If eBay was already a place clean and free of racism and bigotry, then fine. But it isn’t; not by a long shot. And you don’t start cleaning house by dusting the Knick-knacks…
• musicale 6y ago
  Perhaps the surprising bit is that a book from 1937 is still under copyright.
• franga2000 6y ago
  What is it with all this history-erasing lately? And it seems to be happening on all sides of the political spectrum! Not too long ago, Diary of A Young Girl (Anne Frank) was removed from our national school curriculum as well as some more local war-time texts, and it seems that every vaguely-objectionable author is getting defacto banned from every place a person could reasonably be expected to look for them. Socialism is being equated with Fascism, literally anything you do or don't do is considered active opression... I know the horseshoe theory iw a bit of a meme, but this isn't even a horseshoe anymore, it's a fucking möbius strip!