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'Sexual favours were the norm in music industry'
- throwaawwaaaay 6y agoHN: Legalize prostitution, it is normal work. Also HN: Sleeping your way to the top? THE HORROR. I know quite a few people who did the latter, they don't seem to regret it at all.
- capableweb 6y agoIt's almost as HN is filled with actual real human beings with different opinions and emotions, some of them think legalizing prostitution should be done and some of them think using your body for industry favors is bad.
- chewmieser 6y agoBoth of these can be true too... We can be horrified that people abuse their positions of power to force people into sex to achieve a life goal while at the same time believe that prostitution should be legalized for those that choose to go down that path in life. Legalizing behaviors doesn't endorse them either. It removes some of the danger inherent in the behavior.
- chewmieser 6y agoSo you'd rather keep things as they were? Make this a permanent barrier to entry?
- enriquto 6y agoIt's a barrier or an open door, depending on what you are willing to do.
- Jochim 6y agoEither way it usually has nothing to do with the job. Should we really be accepting of managers hiring/promoting people based on how likely they are to fuck them?
- enriquto 6y agoNo, of course. But it still is an open door to many people who wouldn't be there otherwise. I'm not giving any assessment whether this is good or bad.
- leetcrew 6y agoit is bad for promotions/opportunities at work to be doled out on any other basis than a good-faith estimate of capability. that is, assuming you agree that the point of work is to get work done.
- Jochim 6y agoWhat is the point of discussing something like this other than to determine whether it was good or bad?
- kgwxd 6y agoSleeping your way to the top isn't what's under fire. It's the people in positions of power expecting sex.
- enriquto 6y agoThese two things may be very difficult do distinguish in practice. In many cases the only difference will be in how you describe the situation.
- kgwxd 6y agoSpecific instances aren't really part of the point I'm trying to make. It's clear that there exists a non-zero number of people in positions of power expecting sex in exchange for opportunity and a lot of people just accept "that's how it is". There is a surprisingly large number of comments here trying to justify this by redirecting focus towards the people who ultimately decided to give sex in exchange for opportunity. That's a completely separate debate that isn't even very controversial. It's those comments, and their upvotes, that concern me. Especially when they're high karma accounts on a site targeted at entrepreneurs that might be in a position to coerce someone towards choosing to give sex in exchange for opportunity.
- Jochim 6y agoCan you really not see the difference? In prostitution sex is the product being sold. In other environments sex is a distorting factor that puts those not willing to engage in it at a disadvantage and can cause great harm when it becomes an expectation.
- eplanit 6y agoI don't think it said they were forcibly raped; but that the sex was in exchange for something of value, like opportunity or promotion. So long as both parties are adults and in agreement, the "not willing to engage" part doesn't apply. Maybe it's still unethical, though.
- leetcrew 6y agothe point is that even if the participants are okay with it, it still harms people who are unwilling to participate. if I'm a sex worker, my work is sex. nothing wrong with charging money for that. if I'm a software engineer, my work has nothing to do with sex, and my career progression should not be impeded by my refusal to have sex with my boss.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Jochim 6y agoI was intending to make a more general statement on the effects of the practice on all participants and in other industries. The disadvantage for being "not willing to engage" would be applied to those potential artists who refused the sexual advances of these people and were therefore passed over; despite potentially being a better candidate. I think you could even argue that there may be an element of coercion if the person was willing to engage originally. Now that your manager is responsible for your career are you really safe in saying no the second time? The question is really whether we're okay with allowing sexual favours to be placed over merit when accepting people into an industry. I think the answer is unequivocally no, even in industries where sex is the product.
- dang 6y agoPlease don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html That guideline is there because this is such a common, tedious, and reliably provocative form of flamebait. Please make your substantive points without flamebait.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Dirlewanger 6y ago>Entertainment industry where fucktons of money can be made has a shady underbelly no one publicly talks about. No way? Next you'll tell me Hollywood has this same problem...
- agumonkey 6y agoYou should start a thread on twitter, #bttf
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- MichaelMoser123 6y agowhat interests me is: how do people maintain their integrity in such a foul environment? I mean if you can't look yourself in the mirror then how do you keep on creating anything?
- killtimeatwork 6y agoA polish pop star who once said that her career took 10 years longer to go off than it otherwise would because she refused to sleep with the important people in the biz. So, you can maintain your integrity.
- simonh 6y agoAt a very real risk of being permanently blocked. Just because one person managed to succeed despite not being compromised, that doesn't mean it's possible generally. It seems more likely that almost all the artists that refuse to compromise have their career killed right there.
- runawaybottle 6y agoYou overestimate the amount of integrity people have.
- usrusr 6y agoIt's really simple I think: the vast majority of "transactions" won't be well defined "do x to get y" offers but just things that may or may not change certain odds. There's an entire spectrum between the extremes of pure romantic love and list price prostitution and I believe that the point were you really can't fool yourself anymore can be surprisingly far from the former.
- throwaway0a5e 6y agoCombine a mild dose of self delusion with a huge potential payoff and world view that everything is crap and there's evil everywhere and you'll have no trouble living with yourself no matter what you do.
- 6y ago
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- subpixel 6y agoI’m reminded of an axiom, which I will paraphrase: Everything is about sex. Except sex, which is about power.
- A12-B 6y agoI've always thought this phrase is a bit silly. It completely erases the existence of asexual people and their goals and ambitions.
- benburleson 6y agoOr, is the lack of sex about power, reinforcing the axiom?
- A12-B 6y agoThe 'axiom' (idiom) is not that the lack of sex is power, but that everything is sex, and sex itself is power, therefore everything is ultimately about power. But you cannot take sex our of that equation. So it implies that anything you do, even if you don't care about having sex at all, is about sex. Doesn't make sense.
- jmt_ 6y agoNot that I'm supporting asexual erasure, but sayings like the quote in GP are usually fairly general. Statistically, there are much much fewer asexual people than not, so in general it may hold but that's not to say it holds for every single person.
- robscallsign 6y agoThe average human has one breast and one testicle.
- covidthrow 6y agoParent is talking about percentiles, not averages. But on the point of averages: the median human has two breasts and no testicles.
- tchalla 6y ago> However he left the music business in the mid-90s to become a teacher and is now president of Saint Louis School in his native Hawaii. Interesting career choice :)
- timthorn 6y agoMy chemistry teacher was in a top ten pop group in decades past. Could be a more common career ladder than you might think.
- fuzzer37 6y agoWow that sounds super interesting. Did he have any cool stories?
- timthorn 6y agoSome fun ones. What was more interesting to me was that a couple of my contemporaries who were taught by him also then went on to be in top ten groups.
- CGamesPlay 6y agoJust as a point of comparison, how many of your contemporaries who were taught by him went on to become chemists?
- Wohlf 6y agoThere's a lot of teaching jobs available, and if you think about it there's a lot of skill overlap. Students are an audience you have to keep engaged.
- chiefalchemist 6y agoIt's hard to imagine this is only the music industry. Human use sex as a weapon and a tool all the time. True, it might be more useful in the music industry but why would sex as currency only exist there? Where there are humans, there is sex. The obviousness of how that plays out may differ but the underlying theme is universal.
- csunbird 6y agoReminds me of a (untasteful) joke in Family Guy: A women goes to the "Penguin" Publishing, where the owner is a penguin and asks for her book to be published. The penguin makes the joke: "If you want your book in black and white, black and white has to be in you." I feel like this is based on a true story.
- runawaybottle 6y agoIt depends. It’s a matter of how normalized the vice is. If everyone did coke in the 80s, it is much easier for one not to feel any one way about it. It’s not normal to fuck your way to the top or use your power for sex everywhere. It’s abnormal in many places. Avoid systems that make you feel uneasy. Whoring/pimping ain’t for everyone. The same way I’d say avoid tech if hyper competition makes you uneasy.
- alistairSH 6y agoAny industry where there's a massive power differential between "the boss" and "the employee" will likely have this happen. US Gymnastics. Movie, TV, and music industries. US Presidents (and other politicians) and employees. Hell, you still get it in normal business. The stories my wife tells about former co-workers and bosses are disgusting and a primary reason she no longer works at a former employer.
- chiefalchemist 6y agoThe power deltas might create more opportunity. But as you (and me) noted, it's everywhere.
- bjourne 6y ago
- nabla9 6y agoIt makes perfect sense. Music industry is a economics of superstars. https://www.jstor.org/stable/1803469 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1803469 Very few stars get huge profits and after that it's long slim tail. Talent or high work ethic is not enough for success, "getting discovered" aka someone likes you and invests the initial money and effort is another factor. If personal effort is not enough and the artist has nothing else, selling your ass for an opportunity to earn millions is pretty damn reasonable transaction. I mean, if Jeff Besos would come to you and say: I invest into your startup $100M if I can fuck you into the ass tree times, very high percentage of HN crowd would immediately say yes.
- sokoloff 6y agoNow we’re just haggling over the price.
- bryanrasmussen 6y agoI was haggling on if it had to be Jeff Bezos.
- jaywalk 6y agoI was worried I'd get into a bidding war with someone who says they'll do it four times.
- Humdeee 6y agoI'm appalled, what kind of a man do you think I am?
- ericol 6y agoI recognized this quote.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- johnchristopher 6y ago> if Jeff Besos would come to you and say: I invest into your startup $100M if I can fuck you into the ass tree times, very high percentage of HN crowd would immediately say yes. What's the name for this kind of arguments? Also, why specifically Bezos? Why not the billionaire next door? Also, why only the HN crowd? Wouldn't a lot of people too? Do you have a beef with the HN crowd or Bezos?
- api 6y agoAny time you have an industry where the number of people who want to do the work vastly outstrips demand and where there are gatekeepers, you are going to get a culture of abuse. It comes in various forms: sexual or other inappropriate favors for advancement, verbal abuse, or just abusive working conditions like sweatshop hours and burnout culture.
- moduspol 6y agoIt also helps a lot when the quality of the work performed by the person is subjective and overall success is largely dependent on the work of others (writers, musicians, tour directors, sound editors, etc.). It'd be a lot tougher to be successful as an electrician or commercial airline pilot if you got there from sexual favors for your boss.
- bluGill 6y ago> It'd be a lot tougher to be successful as an electrician or commercial airline pilot if you got there from sexual favors for your boss. That isn't true, but the reasons are different for each. For electrician getting your foot in the door is the hard part, from there on it is about on the job training. Getting the first apprentice position is one of the harder steps to success, and sexual favors can work here. Though I doubt this happens much in practice - the field isn't one that people are so excited to get into that they will drop their morals to do so. For airline pilot, demand comes and goes. You have to get a license first (though you can probably pay your instructor in bed, that just gets training I doubt any instructor/examiner will let you buy the license before you are qualified - if anything they will be tougher one you so you have to "buy" another lesson). Once you are qualified, you can use favors to get a job when jobs are scare and this will put you ahead in seniority later when the others finally get a job; or you can use favor to keep a job - but again: seniority means they may not even have an option to keep you. Note that the above is or - because of constant management change odds are against your ability to use this more than once at a real airline without getting caught and then their HR will ensure you are out.
- WindyLakeReturn 6y ago
- jonathanstrange 6y agoEverybody involved has always known and assumed that so much that it's almost a cliché. I mean, people were warning about predatory record producers since the 60s or so. Since I'm not against prostitution either, I can't really be angry about this old hat. (Not that I think it's good.)
- simonh 6y agoEntertainers can work their whole lives to break into the business, investing their heart and soul into it, only for one gatekeeper to hold all of that hostage. They hold incredible leverage. That's in no way similar to offering someone a few quid for sex.
- mnouquet 6y agoIt's exactly the same, as long as someone will want to go the extra inch to make anything more than their competitor, this behavior will stay.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- cat199 6y agoDon't know why they picked a headline that buried the other big point of the article - "Mafia 'owned' pop stars" This is a huge thing hugely related to the rest of the 'industry culture' being talked about.
- motohagiography 6y agoI remember reading about a scandal in the 90's or 00's fashion business where it came out the top modelling and talent agencies were in-effect used as escort agencies by super wealthy clients. The arts have always been seedy, but they have also always been a key path to social mobility, so it's kind of a story as old as time.
- netsharc 6y agoSame thing happens with cheerleaders of famous teams too.. (at least I remember an article where they were being forced to attend parties wearing little black dresses, with creepy old dudes in attendance).
- dpoochieni 6y agoNow what constitutes "forced" and I'm pretty sure there were lots of wannabe cheerleaders who would rather be in their place.
- sdellis 6y ago#FreeBritney
- ignoranceprior 6y agoDoes "Mafia" here refer to the Cosa Nostra, or other organized crime syndicates?
- chokeartist 6y agoYup. Just ask Rose McGowan. I'm sure in retrospect it would have been easier for her career to let mongloid-dick Harvey Weinstein plow her a few times. Fucking disgusting abuse of power. Makes me sick.
- agumonkey 6y agoThe big question is will internet free the good artists that were gatekeeped due to refusing debasing their core values. I have a feeling that only those ready to overcome any such hurdles have the grit to pursue a stage life, but I can be wrong.
- SuoDuanDao 6y agoI wouldn't put it that way, but I think you're referring to something real. I'm not musical but I was quite active in theatre from a young age and there seems to be a skill around dissociation that is necessary to perform. There's something incredibly intimate that happens between a performer and the audience, someone comfortable with that kind of intimacy with that many strangers probably couldn't have certain kinds of core values anyway.
- illwrks 6y agoThe answer to that question is a "no". Those large companies are distributors, packaging a product and selling it to consumers. Think of distribution like a motorway Vs dirt road. If you're doing it yourself, you're running down that dirt road trying to get from point A to point B, battling with millions other people trying to do the same. If you're with a distribution company, you're on their branded luxury touring bus cruising down a motorway, you'll be arriving any minute...
- animal_spirits 6y agoI'm reminded of a quote by Jack Stratton of Vulfpeck; "It reminds me of the comedy approach. You're just gonna eat it for ten years then hopefully be in a movie or something."
- shakow 6y ago> The big question is will internet free the good artists that were gatekeeped I don't think so. What they need the most is publicity, and this is not magically granted by internet. Just take a look at e.g. Spotify; I'm sure there are hundreds of extremely gifted artists sitting down at barely a few dozens listenings, just because no one found them.
- sadmann1 6y agoStardom levels of success will always be based on relationships and all the power dynamic baggage that entails
- FriedrichN 6y agoI would be surprised if it wasn't the case. Industries like these have too many 'king makers' and people idolize the established figures too much. It's basically the same mechanism by which the abuse is facilitated in closed religious communities.
- alistairSH 6y agoAnd US Gymnastics and other sports.
- throwaway894345 6y agoRussian ballet comes to mind as well
- evgen 6y agoCurrently there are major scandals in France around coaches and team officials sexually abusing kids in swimming and figure skating. It is not just a US thing...
- jandrese 6y agoPower corrupts. If you want to find industries with sexual abuse problems look for ones where the power is concentrated in a handful of unelected people, doubly so if those people form an "old boys club".
- jasonwatkinspdx 6y agoPower doesn't corrupt. Power enables. People corrupt themselves. Otherwise agreed.
- thu2111 6y agoThat's a fascinating alternative take I haven't seen before. Thanks - will remember this.
- _pmf_ 6y agoSo, it's women exploiting men for money?
- mensetmanusman 6y agoThe internet is enabling a new norm in reducing the cost of calling out behavior. Some of this is good, e.g. calling out sexual abuse. Some of this is bad, e.g. cancel culture that has no means of forgiveness.
- mathgorges 6y agoI've seen this take quite a bit lately with respect to cancel culture and I'm a bit confused about it. Since HN is amazing, I'm hoping someone here can help me understand without it turning into a flamewar. I don't understand how "cancel culture" is substantially different from what we used to call "boycotts", just with the internet for more social lubrication. I suppose theres a risk that the allegations at the center of the boycott are incorrect, but isn't that what defamation laws are meant to combat?
- matkoniecz 6y agoNot an expert, but big difference is that boycotts are against companies/businesses while cancellations target individuals.
- rgblambda 6y agoThe term can apply to individuals as well. The origin of the term boycott was a landlord's agent called Charles Boycott, who was socially and economically ostracised in response to the eviction of tenants.
- jimkleiber 6y agoI think one thing that I've noticed is that defamation laws seem really hard to enforce on people speaking on the internet, especially when one can hide behind a pseudonym or straight anonymity. I guess overall for "cancel culture", I see it similar to boycotts, but often boycotts edit are /edit of a specific individual, and also without the stipulation that the boycott will stop if a behavior changes. AFAIK, the civil rights bus boycotts wanted a specific policy to change and once that policy changed, they stopped their boycotts. Much of "cancel culture" I guess wants an organization's policy to change, but often that policy is to excommunicate an individual and there doesn't seem to be much that the individual can do to seek redemption—but I may be wrong on this. Would love to hear your thoughts in response.
- jinkyu 6y ago"were"?
- unnouinceput 6y agoQuote: "Mafia 'owned' pop stars" Mafia owned Elvis. If the king didn't had a chance what chance have the pop stars? Get serious, where is lust, regardless of industry, there is Mafia, organized or not.
- selimthegrim 6y agoCitation? I thought he kept family retainers around
- tssva 6y agoI'm not aware of any documented control of Elvis by the mafia. Are you perhaps confusing the "Memphis Mafia" nickname of his entourage with the actual mafia?
- yardie 6y ago> the Mafia is very much a part of the music industry, I'm not too familiar with the pop side of the music industry. I dipped my toe into the Rap/R&B side of the business building websites for new artists. There were literal gangsters in the recording studios sitting across from me drinking and smoking and they made plans for every aspect of these young girls lives: what and when they could eat, who they could see, where they could travel. They were given an allowance. Sexual favours weren't requested or performed in front of me but it was clear these girls were under control. And by girls I mean 15,16,17.
- selimthegrim 6y agoSo R Kelly just erred by degree?
- diob 6y agoThis is why I don't understand the massive cultural obsession over KPOP. It's one of the grossest abusive industries, and anyone who wants to know is able to do a simple google to find out. Those fans? They could use their collective economic impact to help those folks they "love". Instead they just let them get used and abused for their fantasy.
- ratww 6y agoI don't see that changing. I see K-pop fans worshipping the companies as much as they worship the artists themselves. It's a bit dystopic. As much as the old music industry sucks, at least established artists had power.
- celticninja 6y agoIdoru by William Gibson
- ratww 6y agoNice reference!
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- BrandoElFollito 6y agoI've been working for 25+ years in huge, international, rich companies — at very senior (tech) levels. Plenty of travel, plenty of team building, plenty of dinners and hotels. My wife asked me a few times about the orgies the movies show, and damn it, I must have always been at the wrong parties. It is interesting how this varies by companies and organizations.
- pvarangot 6y agoI worked for the movie industry only for a couple of years and on very technical low-level roles, almost apprentice level. Think data tech or in color grading and only as a side gig. I also frequented movie festivals. Don't take this personally but I think you were at the wrong parties. Good signs to tell if you are "in" or not: do you know how to get illegal drugs on set? have you ever been to a private event in a hotel room or AirBNB before or after a ceremony? have you ever been in the same room with an A list celebrity or actor when they are using an illegal substance? If the answer to all those is no then yeah it's probably that you are in the wrong parties. If you've been there and like never witnessed a movie level epic orgy then that's great for you. I know they are not usual on some circles, I've heard Disney and Netflix try to keep their staff on a tight leash. Honestly I wished my experience was more like yours because I liked the industry and it was a little bit of a dream of mine to be more involved with the movie creative process, and one of the reasons I didn't get more into it was that I was not comfortable mixing illegal drugs and orgies with work in the way it was usual.
- BrandoElFollito 6y agoI worked in tech companies, this is why I was mentioning how this is different between companies and organizations.
- pvarangot 6y agoOh sorry I thought you were talking about roles on the entertainment industry. I also work in tech and worked in tech most of my life and even talking about this stuff in certain circles can get you fired. Not so much about the drugs thing, but for for reason the tech industry is very conservative regarding sex.
- crazypython 6y agoI wonder if it's common in other industries e.g. dance. And how many victims there are, and how many of them are those most easily exploited: the poor, weak, and underage.
- mercer 6y agoIt's very common in the world of gymnastics, for one.
- sbilstein 6y agoYes it is. Opera, for example, https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745286413/opera-star-david-daniels-indicted-for-sexual-assault-in-texas https://www.npr.org/2019/07/26/745286413/opera-star-david-da... Music and Arts are a hellhole for this kind of stuff
- canucker2016 6y agoBallet since at least the time of painter Edgar Degas: https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-sordid-truth-degass-ballet-dancers https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-sordid-truth-d... Bolshoi ballet: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/dance/ballet/bolshoi-brothel-oligarchs-claims-former-ballerina/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/dance/ballet/bolshoi-brothel-oli... classical music: https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2018/05/19/612621436/james-levine-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-5-more-men https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2018/05/19/612621436/... https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/charles-dutoit-sexual-misconduct-1.4460409 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/charles-dutoit-sexua...
- slacktide 6y agoMy sister-in-law withdrew from a US-based doctoral operatic program, and a residency with the Royal Opera, specifically because she realized she could not further her career without granting continuous sexual favors.
- texasbigdata 6y agoThis is probably the most interesting comment here. Especially (as a moderate to liberal) with the cancelling of Parkor which was deeply troubling. Is anyone speaking publicly and/or thinking deeply on this future of everyone in the value chain being able to deny freedom of speech? Obviously in some cases it's warranted (violence), but in others where the attack is very pointed (heard instances of cloudfare being petitioned to take down content which is literally internet plumbing) it's relatively concerning.
- krapp 6y ago>(heard instances of cloudfare being petitioned to take down content which is literally internet plumbing) It's not, it's a private company. Most internet infrastructure is private companies offering their services under arbitrary terms, because that's the only possible way to have such an infrastructure without government controlling or regulating the internet, which we don't want. And petitioning is free speech - people have the right to petition anyone about anything. There's nothing to be "relatively concerned" about here, except maybe the lack of competition in the DDoS space, but that's a free market issue, not a free speech issue. If too many people think Cloudflare has stepped out of line, someone will create an alternative, just as alternative right-wing platforms like Gab and Parler were created by people unsatisfied with mainstream social media.
- dang 6y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26166493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26166493 since it's taking the thread on a generic tangent that's been argued to death and back many times recently. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=generic%20tangent%20by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- texasbigdata 6y agoApologize didn’t see it. Thank you. The request for a textbook, or similar caliber academic content on the question was serious and not intended to be inflammatory. Particularly, on something new, the ratio of words spent versus insight is perhaps lower up front as the issue unfolds until learnings crystallize. IMHO.
- Communitivity 6y agoI saw comments talking about a hypothetical utopia where no one needs to go hungry and where talent gets notice without having to sell their body or soul. As with many things, the problem is not technological. We have the technology to create such a utopia (there would still be other problems, but the world would be utopian from those aspects). The problem is sociological. In order to do this we need to both all work together, and think long term (on the order of 50-100 years). The problem is that nations can't even stay together in just an economic union when it's in their best interests economically (Brexit, Paris Accord), and internally those same nations bicker and vote on party lines (Tories vs Labor, Democrats vs Republicans), instead of voting what's best in the long term for the nation. What's happening in Texas right now is an example. Texas had the money to buy snowplows. They didn't. Texas had the money to winterize wind turbines. They didn't. We have to get beyond our short term greed and work together in long term action to succeed at addressing these problems. Otherwise there will always be Epsteins, etc. in any industry where people are vying for attention (most of them).
- tabtab 6y agoRe: Texas had the money to buy snowplows. They didn't. Texas had the money to winterize wind turbines. They didn't. They worship tax-cuts and D.I.Y. social Darwinism (survival of the fittest). So when the weather gets bad, many there are okay with social Darwinism per survival. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/17/texas-mayor-tom-boyd-quits-storm-sink-or-swim https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/17/texas-mayor-... Note I didn't say all are happy with it, but enough that they tend to lightly fund infrastructure.
- jandrese 6y agoIt's a case study in why putting public utilities on a free market is self destructive. The company that neglects maintenance drives the costs down and wins, driving out the competition. Once they have an effective monopoly the utility collapses from a pileup of deferred maintenance and has to get bailed out by the taxpayers. On the upside some very rich people got way richer than they would have under a traditional regulated utility situation.
- known 6y agoIt's there in IT industry also; Girls silently suffer / quit jobs :(
- lostgame 6y agoWhile it is there, being female and in both industries myself I have to say that it's like comparing a cup of water to a bucket in terms of the sheer amount of sexual abuse that goes on in the music industry. And I say that as a victim of IT workplace sexual assault, and I unfortunately did exactly as you posted. :( The music industry is harrowing. It's not to discount the very real trauma myself and others have gone through in the IT workplace - it sucks, it's shitty and it shouldn't be. However, the last decade especially, I've noticed IT has gotten progressively and better at this, and if women in my workplace or previous two were seriously mistreated everyone would be shocked and people would be immediately fired. I don't have a lot of time to list off the horror stories right now, but pretty much everything you've heard about abuse in Hollywood is true, and it's much worse than you've heard. I guess the abuse is just so much more systematic, established, and regular in the music industry, and; despite #metoo - it is unfortunately not progressing or evolving in the way that I have personally witnessed the IT industry do over the last decade. It just seems like more people have been exposed. There's some bad apples in IT but tbh very often you do hear about them, and it destroys companies and careers. The good apples in the music industry are the exception, not the rule, and in IT that playing field is incredibly more even.
- golemiprague 6y agoIT was always normal, it didn't make any "progress" except from the general "progress" that the whole society did. It wasn't different to any other industry 40 years ago and not today. The only grief women had is that there were not enough of them, which is still the case but the ones who worked in the industry whether as programmers or other peripheral jobs were treated exactly like they would in a law office or a bank or other jobs with more women. The funny thing is that the whole agenda causing women to think as if this industry is so bad was pushed by the actual bad industry, the media, film and music industry. An industry which let hip hop artists say the most horrible things about women for years, that actually raped and traded success for sexual favours as a common trading coin. They misdirected the fire to IT and mid America and everybody swallowed it hook line and sinker.
- red01 6y agoI can't help but notice the rapists are usually Jewish.
- znpy 6y agoThe article is from nine hours ago. The interesting part will come, maybe, in the next days. It's going to be interesting if somebody from the pop scenes comes out to confirm those claims, in a sort of "me too" fashion. I mean, I would really like to see this topic discussed by more people in the industry. If anything, to help put an end to this kind of practices.
- bsaul 6y agoa metoo on sex in the music industry would be one reaction to the article, another would be a metoo about mafia involved and controlling your industry. The second one looks much much gutsy tbh..
- bluGill 6y agoMy understanding is this was more common in years past. Up to the 1950s it was understood a good looking secretary got her job in bed. The really ugly ones got and kept it by being good at the job, with a possible side of the wife doing well in bed. Even then it was understood as not always true, but it was true enough. Secretaries at the time demanded the ability handle boredom as a lot of the job was doing the simple repetitive work we have automated machines to do: a girl who got her job in bed could probably do it nearly as well as the ugly secretary who was good with only a little training. The slightly more complex repetitive work would be given to a computer - which was a job title for a human not a machine. Note the sexist language above. Females were generally "kept in their place", which meant little opportunity to get to do anything interesting or high paying.
- vinger 6y agoIt was never true the pretty ones put out and the uglies were good at there jobs. The less good looking probably put out more where the more beautiful could get by on a bosses hope.
- ThankYouBernard 6y agowho needs Mad Men when you can just read HN in 2021
- bluGill 6y agoYou aren't wrong, but I don't think you are correct. There were a lot of "good church going men" who wouldn't sleep with anyone they weren't married to. There were others are appeared that way in public, but wanted some "outside pleasures". The former hired for skill and tried not to care about looks, and in fact ugly could be an advantage as it may limit temptation (but this was still "women's work" so it was her). The later in theory would hire based on looks, but on on reflection it was more complex. It is a bit tricky to figure out how who will sleep with you in the interview, as those who wouldn't may tell society which would be a disaster for someone pretending to be a good church man. Those who could figure this out would hire the good looking ones. Those who couldn't had to figure out how to make it clear that imperfections in performance could be overlooked in bed and see what happened - I suspect this was more common, and thus biases to the ugly ones.
- csharptwdec19 6y agoI'll be bold and say it's the media industry has a problem. I remember family members having problems/reservations with Weinstein's behavior back in the 90's. People like Corey Feltman have been speaking up for years. But nobody cares because we're getting good cinema and TV, right? A huge part of these industries are based on 'favors' and 'networking'. Toss in the theory that you have a higher-than-baseline level of narcissism in this talent pool and you lead to a recipe for abuse.
- virtue3 6y agoI mean... Judy Garland was... ugh. Here's a pretty tame snippet: "But it was her draconian weight-watch that made Judy the most abused child in the history of American cinema. Judy was put on diet pills from the age of 12. She was not slowed to eat anything that children enjoy. In the bio-pic on Judy we see how she was not allowed to have cake even on her own birthday. Mayer personally kept reminding Judy of how fat she was when in fact Judy was a skinny under-fed near-anorexic child who craved to enjoy a burger or sip on a cola. Pleasures that she was sternly and often abusively denied. If she broke the diet code she was threatened with immediate dismissal from the MGM roster."
- jacquesm 6y agoCheck out children's beauty pageants if you want to see another example of this kind of horror.
- bluGill 6y agoOr don't. None of them look like children anyway. There are a bunch of kids made up to look like adults. First time you see your kids do it it is funny, but you then lock away the makeup because it wouldn't be funny the second time just a waste of makeup.
- jiofih 6y ago> who craved to enjoy a burger or sip on a cola On the other hand, presenting a burger and cola as some kind of innate need for a child also seems off - enjoying a birthday cake, a lemonade or a lasagna are already damning enough...
- tabtab 6y agoIn other words, other "skills" can partly substitute for looks. One generally moans with their eyes closed. One thing that bugs me is that it's often said "men are animals" in that they lack self control. Yet many women wear provocative clothing at work to gain favors. Such women want it both ways: the ability to tease and taunt, but a magic lid on those when they don't want advances. They want to play with fire BUT not ever get burned. Sorry, that's being too choosey. If you don't want to get burned, don't play with friggen fire! It's like wanting to taunt tigers at the zoo all day, but saying they should never try to break their cages. Both sides are at fault. Don't taunt the hungry tigers in our pants and expect 24/7 self control. You already know tigers are dangerous, so don't aggravate them.
- grawprog 6y ago>Don't taunt the hungry tigers in our pants and expect 24/7 self control. I probably shouldn't even bother responding to this comment, but i'm sorry, as a man, yes control your fucking dick. That's the way of it. If you can't control yourself, that's on you, nobody else.
- tabtab 6y agoI'm not justifying it, only saying it's not realistic IN PRACTICE. Requiring 24/7 discipline on that doesn't scale. Most men are friggen horny by nature. It's like telling everyone to diet and exercise to not be obese. It doesn't work, half the population over 30 is obese. Or to never gossip. How many will follow that? Realistic advice needs to scale and work in practice. Platitudes without that won't actually fly.
- grawprog 6y agoYeah dude...being horny by nature is no excuse for that kind of behaviour. Yes it is realistic to expect people will not sexually take advantage of others just because they're horny and the other person is dressed in a way that 'taunts' them. It happens all the time. There's millions of horny people out there every day not sexually assaulting people.
- quasimodem 6y ago...How exactly is this hacker news?
- anonAndOn 6y agoHacking one's progression up the career ladder outside of OOP? (...or is that OPP, yeah you know me!)
- mywittyname 6y agoArticles of general interest are allowable in moderation. Also, there is broad overlap between the tech and entertainment industries. Some people here have experienced the seedy underbelly of entertainment. And such stories can be very interesting because, for the most part, tech workers in those industries are involved but invisible. Like gossip among the servants.
- acruns 6y ago"were" as in past tense? no longer happening? I have my doubts it has stopped.
- ashtonkem 6y agoI suspect you’re right, but in this case it’s clear that they’re saying “were” because their involvement in the music industry is past tense; they would have little first hand knowledge whether or not it’s common nowadays.
- Shivetya 6y agoOne reason #METOO came to a screeching halt. When it hit the US music industry. Hell their own awards show went out of its way to not award a song many praised for highlighting the issue.
- lanius 6y agoStill is in the K-pop industry.
- farfacy 6y agoNot just in Kpop. "LITTLE MIX claim record bosses ordered them to flirt with men to get ahead in the music industy. The accusations from the quartet come after Simon Cowell confirmed the group have switched to RCA Records. Now the women have alleged they were advised how to behave to carve out chart success following their victory on The X Factor in 2011. Jade Thirlwall claimed: ‘We went to a radio event in America, full of VIPs. Someone from the label said, “Go and flirt with all those important men.” I was like, “F** off. Why have I got to go in and flirt to get my song on the radio?”’ The 25-year-old also alleged the singers were given no input into their own songs because they are women. ‘In the beginning, we were told we shouldn’t be involved in our music videos,’ she said. ‘One producer told us we shouldn’t be writing, we should just be given songs."
- joe_the_user 6y agoTheorist Guy Debord spoke of the Mafia and the recording industry. In the United States at least, it is already in the recording industry, as in every other activity where publicity of a product depends on a quite concentrated number of people. It is easy to apply pressure to them, with bribes and intimidation, since there is obviously quite a great deal of capital and hitmen who can not be recognized nor punished. By corrupting the disc-jockeys, one thus decides what will succeed, from equally wretched commodities. [1] [1] Thesis XXIV, http://www.notbored.org/commentaires.html http://www.notbored.org/commentaires.html
- DTE 6y agoThe "Society of the Spectacle" is a wonderfully enigmatic take on media and tech. Highly recommended.
- eternalban 6y ago[You sent me searching] Published by "Bureau of Public Secrets": http://www.bopsecrets.org/cat.htm http://www.bopsecrets.org/cat.htm
- joe_the_user 6y agoTechnically, published by Verso, Black and Red Publics and a couple other publishers. Translated by Bureau of Public Secrets (Ken Knabb) as well as Donald Nicholson Smith and Freddy Perlman. Available online: Bureau of Public Secrets: http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/debord/ http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/debord/ Marxists.org: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/debord/society.htm https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/debord/society.ht... Film version: https://archive.org/details/thesocietyofthespectacleguydebord1973 https://archive.org/details/thesocietyofthespectacleguydebor...
- theqult 6y agowere ?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Koshkin 6y ago(2021)
- dang 6y agoAll: the article is interesting and, as many fine commenters are showing, it's quite possible to have a curious conversation about it. So could the rest of us please not go off the deep end into flamewar? The amount of moderation this thread has needed is beyond the pale. Yes, the topic is provocative, but the art of being a good HN citizen involves learning to resist the most provocative bits of an article and the provokey reactions they induce in us. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hypertele-Xii 6y agoSex is currency in music industry. Music is currency in drug industry. Drugs are currency in sex industry. The three really do go well together.
- Blikkentrekker 6y agoWhat I think is most likely is that many other favors are currency in the music industry. It's simply that enough people are so obsessed with sex that they find it worth writing about that sex is too. It would not surprise me at all if it can be generalized to “People in showbusiness play favors to advance their career.”. Showbusiness is uniquely qualified for such gamesmanship, because quality is entirely subjective, so it is quite easy to realize such matters. — in many other fields, one might find oneself having to justify to one's superiors why exactly one so favors this particular employee as the numbers don't justify it.
- sokoloff 6y agoQuality is subjective is part of it, but popularity has a positive feedback loop with exposure. If you think I can help you get the initial exposure, I have a lot of power.
- nlitened 6y agoSex, drugs, and rock-n-roll, huh?
- 29athrowaway 6y agoSo, like Hollywood then?
- numair 6y agoIf you think this sort of behavior is from a bygone era, or that the tech companies will somehow “fix” the problem: please ask your favorite Swedish streaming music company CEO why he turned a blind eye to one of his key investors running party house in Coachella that was, as I was told, filled with cocaine and shady characters (this was about 10 years ago)... Those mafia-esque deals with labels and managers didn’t write themselves. There is, of course, more to this, but nobody tells you or reports on it, because nobody wants to lose access to that world.
- zxcvbn4038 6y agoIt depends on the company. I worked at a large international bank where we had a couple dozen project managers that would travel abroad for 2-6 weeks at a time. We had server set up in a storage closet with a huge porn cache. When the project managers came back to the US we would copy all the porn they had collected to the server, replace the porn on their laptops with new porn from the cache, then send them back abroad again. We never knew what people would come back with but it ranged from "Cinemax" to "Only Legal In Kentucky". Another guy came back from Switzerland and the bank had to put him in a hotel for three weeks because the night before he left he met a lady at a bar and she left fingernail marks all over his back - no way he could hide it from his wife and he knew he would get divorced if she found out. At the same bank we had this German trust fund kid who had a $400k a month cocaine habit - Dr. Rockso had nothing on this guy. The bank sent him to rehab for six months and when he came back it was really eerie because I'd never seen him stand still for more then 200ms - he had always bounced around like a humming bird and spoke like John Moschitta imitating yoda. Fast forward twenty years to my time at Tumblr where people office sexing damaged a half dozen window stools, several chairs, and there was a very nice grey couch they had to throw out due to all the "mysterious" stains. You really didn't trust any flat surface there. They tried to set up an office bar but gave up after two nights when someone drank the entire inventory of liquor each night. Tumblr had a lot of LGBTQ "diversity hires". One guy would show up at company-wide meetings and use all of the gay porn blogs to demonstrate the latest features he had been working on. Another guy would strut around the office in a zz-top beard and a french maid outfit w/ fishnet pantyhose and heels. There was a group of transitioning guys who would hang out by my desk and discuss their urine fetish - though they stopped doing that after I challenged them all to a "b_lls-out" coding contest knowing they were no longer equipped. After all that I think I'm ready if I ever get that dream SRE job at PornHub. O Canada! Our home and native land!...
- Proziam 6y agoI see the tradition of SAP, Oracle, and the big consulting firms from the days of yore is still going strong.
- gnfargbl 6y ago> After all that I think I'm ready if I ever get that dream SRE job at PornHub. O Canada! You know what they say about not letting your dreams just be dreams: https://www.mindgeek.com/careers/?gh_jid=4564518002 https://www.mindgeek.com/careers/?gh_jid=4564518002
- shams93 6y agoI could have been working in hip hop in the 90s however the label didn't just want production help they also wanted help selling heroin, the industry in the 90s was very unprofessional to say the least, coming from being a fan of Fugazi and other "straight edge" music I was horrified by the prospect of being expected to sell heroin to get into production for the industry.
- divtiwari 6y agoWater is wet, who would have thought!!
- oblib 6y agoMy father's ex-girlfriend went to work as a Kelly Girl for one of the biggest players in the music industry back in the early `70s. She ended up at the top of their executive positions and was paid very well and retired very comfortably. I can assure you she was never sexually harassed there. I'm sure they had their parties and people mixed and hooked up, but that's not the same as "favors". They never invested money in something they didn't think would sell, and they made a shit ton of money.
- tomcam 6y agoIn my younger, prettier days I used to work in West Los Angeles, took acting classes, etc. It is pretty clear to me that something like a majority of the people you see onscreen, both male and female, were required to perform acts on Harvey Weinsteinesque characters to get the roles they had. If you think you only have to do that once or twice, remember that you can audition every day for months or even years without getting a role. If you're a dude, remember that you are very likely going to be servicing another dude whether you're straight or not. Also, when you're young it can be hard to tell who actually has the power actually to get you a role or not.
- f430 6y agoProbably even more so in Hollywood and elsewhere. When you have asymmetric imbalance, it's almost guaranteed to find abuse in the industry.
- seastonATccs 6y agoWonder if I gave my mechanic a handie he'd find less wrong with it during my yearly inspection..
- f430 6y agoNot if he's licensed by a certain Italian car manufacturer demanding that you get your car inspected every year or risk losing resale value. It is a lucrative recurring revenue model after all...favours or not ;)
- tabtab 6y agoWho is flagging and hiding all these messages? Let people be allowed to have an opinion. It's a tricky topic; let people speak their mind. One has to live in a world where people disagree with you. They won't go away just because you cork their mouth.
- mg794613 6y agoA article with no new content about celebrities debauchery in the 80/90's? Is this vanity fair or HN?
- download13 6y agoWere?
- _hans_meiser__ 6y agoCan anyone recommend a hackernews alternative where only IT, CS and tech is discussed? With no politics or yellow press?