28 ms·

“I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure”

1168 points by fireball_blaze 6y ago

autoditype 6y ago
I thought this was going to be a Clippy joke, but the truth was much more disturbing. Why is Microsoft sharing this level of information (from a corporate account) with third parties?
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Well I think we all know why. They make money from it. The question that’s more relevant is how many of you are going to cancel your Azure accounts and move to a different host after seeing this and will it lose MS enough money to stop the practice. I’m taking bets that not enough will at 50:1 odds.
  - toyg 6y ago
    Do you really think Ubuntu doesn't already have similar agreements with other cloud providers...? Azure is a big fish. If they managed to get that, they definitely got smaller ones.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Then time to move off Ubuntu? I’ve been a big fan of it for a long time but it seems my servers will be moving to a BSD sooner rather than later.
      - petschge 6y ago
        You could also just use Debian instead of Ubuntu.
        IgorPartola 6y ago
        But systemd :). Honestly the main servers I am thinking of moving use zfs and zfs on FreeBSD is more of a first class citizen than on Linux.
        jkaplowitz 6y ago
        The zfs reason makes sense, but in recent releases Debian and Ubuntu take the same approach to systemd, so switching between those two wouldn't meaningfully change the init system situation. (I did see the smiley face; this comment is just in case that smiley is more self-deprecation than sarcasm, or for other readers.)
        IgorPartola 6y ago
        I put the smiley there because just the other day I was defending systemd on a different HN discussion as a perfectly usable piece of software. I meant that I wanted to move off a system that uses systemd which would mean both Debian and Ubuntu. It has been a while since I’ve run a non-Linux server so part of it is to stretch my stead in muscles. Don’t want to get rusty.
        jkaplowitz 6y ago
        Gotcha! Keeping skills fresh and broad is a good idea.
        mamcx 6y ago
        How good is freebsd to host a typical PG + nginx + docker + Rust/Python backend? ie: Can I use last versions of everything and expect to work? I have always used ubuntu.
        andrewzah 6y ago
        If you use docker heavily, *bsds are not an option. You do not need a *bsd just for ZFS, although it is supported quite nicely. I use zfs with proxmox for my server, which is debian based. I would recommend using debian buster. People lose their minds over systemd and it's ridiculous. Debian has been the best experience of any distro that I've used, and I've tried most of them. For my router I use openbsd.
      - 95e702cdcbd7d09 6y ago
        Other good reasons to move away from Ubuntu: * They show you ads on login * They periodically phone home with: Ubuntu version, kernel version, architecture, CPU model, curl/wget version, cloud (if applicable; aws/openstack/...). This is part of the delivery system of the ads mentioned above. See /etc/update-motd.d/50-motd-news for the actual script.
        BelenusMordred 6y ago
        * Snap breaking all the things
    - hvis 6y ago
      I'm pretty sure it's the other way around, and Microsoft has similar agreements with most of its partners. Ubuntu's however, is a free OS, so any cloud hosting can use it without major repercussions even without any support contract with Canonical. Any cloud provider that doesn't like this agreement, doesn't have to make it.
    - TameAntelope 6y ago
      We're all a bunch of tech folks here, so has anyone gotten an email from Canonical after spinning up an Ubuntu instance in AWS or GCP? I've at least done this on AWS and have never seen anything from Canonical.
      - rchaud 6y ago
        Your data is still on their CRM. Perhaps a salesperson looked you up and decided to pass?
        TameAntelope 6y ago
        Right, hence the open question.
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    It will definitely keep me avoiding marketplace offerings. All we do on Azure is spin up VMs / K8S deployments / Connections to on Prem. The one time we tried to set up SendGrid "from the marketplace", it failed horribly.
    - atraac 6y ago
      We tried making three Sendgrids for every environment but we werent aware that Azure has a limit of two per subscription... We got 'banned' and cannot change any of their passwords, cannot login, remove them, reset in any way, Sendgrid support sends us to Azure support. On Azure support we got an guy who barely spoke english and prolonged the case with meaningless messages for over six months after which we gave up, issue was not resolved, we're stuck with two banned Sendgrid accounts within subscription. I guess spendings of 18k eur/month is not enough to get proper support.
      - throw1234651234 6y ago
        Thanks for that story - now I am really glad it didn't work for us from the start.
  - api_or_ipa 6y ago
    It's enough for me to have an extremely bad taste in my mouth, that goes for both Azure and Canonical. On the topic of linux distros, we do use Ubuntu, mostly because that's often the least effort distro to spin up, but the choice of distro is fairly arbitrary nowadays, especially for Ubuntu. My current employer uses AWS so the question of switching platforms probably won't arise now, but whether it's at this company, a new company, or my own side projects, you can bet the decision over which platform to use will come up, and horror stories like this aren't easily forgotten.
- agilob 6y ago
  > Why is Microsoft sharing this level of information (from a corporate account) with third parties? Because why not, it's allowed by T&C
  - temac 6y ago
    Then why do the T&C contain such garbage, and why do people "accept" them (the answer to the last question being that most probably don't read them... well that strategy has its limits, for both parties apparently...)
- IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
  It’s not a „third party“. The image spun up by the user is published to the Azure marketplace by Canonical.
- phreack 6y ago
  It definitely gave me Clippy vibes, and suddenly thrust me into a Black Mirror type of situation where a current day Clippy would literally forward all of your work (keystrokes, open programs, files) to sales and ad representatives so they can sell you more stuff. Every day I'm more and more paranoid of big companies now!
  - jlgaddis 6y ago
    You realize that pretty much all of that happens when you use Windows 10, yes?
- ohthehugemanate 6y ago
  The MS response in TFA is illuminating: terms for publishing an image on the marketplace are that MS will make certain information available to facilitate user support. Sales and Marketing are explicitly forbidden uses of this information. Canonical violated their Terms, in what is probably a GDPR violation of some kind if the user is in the EU. What's interesting is whatif any enforcement action comes of this. It's not like MSFT can restrict Ubuntu image use on Azure; Linux is literally the majority of their usage. Can they sue?
superkuh 6y ago
All I see is, "JavaScript is not available."
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  You should probably enable JavaScript. Sounds like you broke your browser and half the web with it :)
  - DocTomoe 6y ago
    Or maybe he has a good reason to keep it turned off. Like avoiding giving people like spammers, scammers, marketers and websites that hire incompetent web developers attention they do not deserve.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Right. But then stop complaining about it every chance you get. It’s the equivalent of taking the steering wheel out of your car so if you get in an accident you don’t hit your head on it, then complaining that streets have turns. For better or worse, the web now requires JS to function unless you restrict yourself to some very specific communities. If that’s the case and you want to do that, good for you. But every HN thread seems to have a complainer about not being able to use a service that’s built on top of JS.
      - DocTomoe 6y ago
        I disagree. Bad practices, like (linking to) websites that do not degrade gracefully, is worthwhile. Only by creating awareness, change can be invoked.
        IgorPartola 6y ago
        I would love to see a text editor, a spreadsheet editor, or a piece of mapping software that's as usable as Google Docs and Google Maps that you create with plain HTML :)
maxk42 6y ago
Microsoft I'd expect this from but what the heck was Canonical thinking??
- devmor 6y ago
  Probably something along the lines of "Hello, I like money."
- macksd 6y ago
  Canonical has had PR problems with privacy before: submitting desktop searches to external services by default, including Amazon results, etc. At the end of the day they're trying to monetize Linux and they seem less focused on traditional enterprise relationships than Red Hat or SUSE.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  Please do not tell me you are so naïve as to believe that Canonical would be above this? It has not gone unnoticed to me that many seem to think that, say, Canonical and Red Hat are not corporations in the traditional sense, for which the customer is prey.
matsemann 6y ago
Is it Azure sharing data, or the Ubuntu images phoning home? Edit: a comment here links to an article with more details. MS shares with Canonical. Bad on both parts I'd say, at least weird usage of the data.
- joezydeco 6y ago
  Not if you purchase something from Canonical on MS's Marketplace. That's what marketplaces do.
  - inetknght 6y ago
    What was purchased from Canonical?
    - db48x 6y ago
      A free copy of Ubuntu, packaged specifically for use on Azure.
      - inetknght 6y ago
        That's not a purchase. Every dictionary I've read has described a purchase to include transferring money and ownership. Starting a VM isn't a purchase of Ubuntu. It's a rental of compute, storage, and network resources. Any other definition is, quite simply, wrong.
        dspillett 6y ago
        > Any other definition is, quite simply, wrong. Then there are a great many definitions of there that are quite wrong. Many references to organising a service and so forth. This is probably one of those instances where the dictionary needs to catch up. A dictionary documents how language is used at the time of its compilation, it does not dictate how language will/should be used for all time forward.
        6y ago
raesene9 6y ago
The register article on this https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/11/microsoft_azure_ubuntu_data_sharing/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/11/microsoft_azure_ubunt... has responses from Canonical and MS, which shed a bit more light on the situation. The Canonical quote is the most illuminating :- "As per the Azure T&Cs, Microsoft shares with Canonical, the publisher of Ubuntu, the contact details of developers launching Ubuntu instances on Azure. These contact details are held in Canonical’s CRM in accordance with privacy rules. "On February 10th, a new Canonical Sales Representative contacted one of these developers via LinkedIn, with a poor choice of word. In light of this incident, Canonical will be reviewing its sales training and policies."
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Wow. I just lost a whole lot of respect for Canonical. “If you read the document we expect nobody to read, you’d know that you sold your soul to us. We didn’t mean for you to find that out but one of our salespeople got overeager and tried to sell you your soul back. He will be reprimanded. Can we all forget about this real quick?”
  - rkangel 6y ago
    This was my first response as well (it's not the data sharing that's the problem, it's that you noticed). Thinking about it though, a lot of it is a question of surprise and unknowns. I would find this message to be a lot better - "We see that you've taken advantage of the Ubuntu image that Canonical provide in the Azure Marketplace. I am available to you for (etc.)".
    - inetknght 6y ago
      > * I would find this message to be a lot better - "We see that you've taken advantage of the Ubuntu image* No. That's not better at all. The mere fact that Canonical has specific information to reach me when I am not a direct customer of Canonical is a complete violation of my privacy. Ubuntu is a free product. Canonical should not be able to find out if I (specifically me or my organization) allocates or runs 1 or 10000 instances of Ubuntu.
sudenmorsian 6y ago
> Essentially you're agreeing to a EULA of some sorts, that "offer", and the offer has terms which include a reporting back to publisher. Imagine Oracle using this to capture enterprises that are skirting their license empire. https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168?s=20 https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168?s=20
maltalex 6y ago
FWIW, I have dozens of Ubuntu VMs on Azure. Never got an email like this.
impostervt 6y ago
Great, one more type of message to ignore on LinkedIn.
- criddell 6y ago
  Do people actually check their messages on LinkedIn?
schnevets 6y ago
Early in my career, I worked for a tiny company that exclusively built plug-ins for a specific SAAS platform. I noticed there was a public-facing page where one could search for any customer of this SAAS platform, so I built a scraper that would auto-search names, main URLs, and ticker symbols for every company on the S&P 500 into this search. I demoed it with 5 companies to a member of the sales team, and he politely asked me to remove the script from the company laptop, and seemed to be annoyed at my script kiddie antics. He said it was nearly impossible to build a lead out of that kind of information, and that any shop that would try and use that kind of poisoned fruit would quickly tarnish their reputation.
- duxup 6y ago
  >He said it was nearly impossible to build a lead out of that kind of information, and that any shop that would try and use that kind of poisoned fruit would quickly tarnish their reputation. I think one of the caveats to that is good sales folks probably would do exactly as you describe. But there's always good sales folks who are making sales, and then the desperate ones who have nothing but time on their hands to try other things simply because they have time on their hands or are desperate. There are always starving dogs out there.
- ufmace 6y ago
  That sounds like a quality sales team. Things like the OP tend to happen when you take inexperienced and desperate sales people and make them work on straight commission with no mentorship. Exactly as the person you spoke to feared, this has tarnished the reputation of the entire Canoical organization, which is exactly why you don't do that.
awinter-py 6y ago
interesting to me that the TOS part of this discussion is being prosecuted via screenshots. Most legal disputes online presumably have an element of proving a clickwrap paper trail -- I wonder if there's demand for better tools for capturing what prompts were shown?
ismaildonmez 6y ago
apt-get --purge remove clippy
senormenor 6y ago
The message was sent on LinkedIn, right? Seems relevant to a discussion about LinkedIn that was on the HN front page just a few hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26106810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26106810
BlueTie 6y ago
As someone who works in tech sales - the real bullshit here is that this is some right-out-of-college 22 y/o entry level sales person (SDR) who was likely told to to take this list and message everyone on linkedin 1x1. The negative impact of this goes on his shoulders where the positive responses from this get passed off to someone else who is outside the blast radius. Stuff like this is the norm when sales is viewed as an extension of marketing ("we need more leads") and not as a function that helps companies coordinate the evaluation and purchase of software ("we need to find out if this is the right fit for them") and the ones who pay the highest price are at the lowest levels when it's executives who are giving the orders.
- fireball_blaze 6y ago
  > The negative impact of this goes on his shoulders Well, in this case, people are mad at Azure/MS and Canonical for betraying developer trust, not the individual salesperson. He's just a pawn in the game. It's not like this guy went rogue; this is his job. The system is setup in a creepy way to enable this type of upselling, which makes people uncomfortable. Whether or not Azure or Canonical change policies, we shall see.
  - BlueTie 6y ago
    > Well, in this case, people are mad at Azure/MS and Canonical for betraying developer trust, not the individual salesperson. He's just a pawn in the game. It's not like this guy went rogue; this is his job. It's still his linkedin profile plastered all over twitter right now though more than Azure's EULA/T&C's.
    - fireball_blaze 6y ago
      But no one is calling this guy a villain. For example, his name is not mentioned once in all these HN comments. It's not his fault. And indeed the Azure T&C's are definitely referenced a in the Twitter discussion with the OP. Such as: https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168 https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168
jbob2000 6y ago
This is incredibly common. I installed an analytics package on my personal heroku account for a side project and received an email on my enterprise email account from their sales department. My personal heroku account uses my personal email address, eg. jbob@gmail.com, but my enterprise account uses my full name, eg. jonathan.bob@bigco.com. There's a sneaky CRM tool floating around that is connecting the dots on people.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- csunbird 6y ago
  I think it is apollo, they had linked my job email and personal email already.
- bronson 6y ago
  This is called data enrichment. It is a massive industry with boatloads of companies serving it. One of the more well known (outside of the credit bureaus) is Acxiom. Googling will get you pretty far. If you have money and a piece of personal info (just about any combo of name+zip, phone#, email addrs, credit card, tracking cookie, etc), these companies can quickly give you full personal details including income and housing history, mortgage status, email addresses used, employment history and full details on your employers, plus all these details on spouses and children, pretty much whatever you want. It's remarkable.
deleted 6y ago
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jnwatson 6y ago
I'm super confused as to why anybody thinks this is a problem. Generally, when one "buys" something from a "marketplace" the vendor gets to know who the buyer is. That the vendor asks the buyer if there's anything else they'd want to buy is par for the course.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  What? When I buy something at a brick and mortar store, I don't expect the product's manufacturer to get my personal information. I don't even expect the store to get my personal information if I pay in cash. I don't want some "relationship" with a company just because I buy their product.
  - soared 6y ago
    Well... they do get your personal information along with tens of other companies involved in any transaction. Crm, payment processors, anti-fraud, manufacturers, etc. When you buy a product you agree to whatever terms there are, you only get to write terms if you’re writing up a contract.
  - jasonlotito 6y ago
    Sure, but you did notice that they had a mailing list and gave them your name and email address and a bit more information so they could get back to you. This thread explains it in more detail: https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168 https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168 Seems pretty simple. No real story, other than the OP not paying attention.
    - andrewzah 6y ago
      "Why won't it read?!" That southpark episode, while disturbing, amusingly is spot on.
  - IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
    I don’t know why we need metaphors for situations that are this simple. But, in any case, the „Azure marketplace“, as its name implies, acts as a middleman connecting buyers and sellers. In brick-and-mortar terms, it’s closer to signing a cell phone contract with AT&T at an Apple Store.
balthasar 6y ago
I mean just the idea of spinning up linux on Mircrosoft's cloud is pretty funny in and of its self.
- nonotreally 6y ago
  I think you may be underestimating how big Azure is and how much Linux they do. Although it is fun to think about the 90s version of MS embracing linux to this degree. https://cloudwars.co/microsoft/microsoft-wallops-amazon-in-2020-cloud-revenue-aws-google-cloud/ https://cloudwars.co/microsoft/microsoft-wallops-amazon-in-2... https://build5nines.com/linux-is-most-used-os-in-microsoft-azure-over-50-percent-fo-vm-cores/ https://build5nines.com/linux-is-most-used-os-in-microsoft-a...
waylandsmithers 6y ago
Wow- and I thought it was weird and inappropriate when I got a linkedin message from a MongoDB rep basically saying "Hey! I'm the account manager for your company so let me know if you need help with anything Mongo related!" (subtext being, how can I convince you to use (more) mongo services on your project)
- soared 6y ago
  I mean the job of an account manager is supporting the client. I don’t know how you can contort that into something to be mad about.
  - SilasX 6y ago
    Because they didn’t contact the user through the channel the user authorized the sales rep to content them through. Same as if (in the old days) they looked up your home number from the phone book and called you at home instead of at the work number you gave them.
- briman314 6y ago
  No doubt that's the subtext but this happens EVERYWHERE. Have you ever downloaded a whitepaper for any vendor and then get harrassed with 4-5 times about talking about it? That sounds gentle in comparison. I would use the opportunity to ask for free swag or training if it was possible. :)
McDyver 6y ago
He seems to have been using a corporate account, and then was contacted via a personal account. This goes to show that, when dealing with big corporations, even when you're paying, you're still the product.
deleted 6y ago
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AtlasBarfed 6y ago
Was this a custom-wrapped ubuntu image, or did someone pick the pre-configured ubuntu image managed by Canonical and Microsoft?
somehnguy 6y ago
I installed Ubuntu onto a physical machine recently because I needed to use a Linux package for something real quick. Upon trying to install the incredibly common package I was given some error about it not existing and some nonsense about using snaps. I don't care about learning how to use snaps, I just want to get something done. I quickly installed Debian instead and got back to doing the work I needed to do. It really soured my opinion of Ubuntu - a distro I first used back when they were still mailing out CDs. This furthers my negative opinion of Canonical and solidifies my position that I'll never use Ubuntu again. Debian it is for me if I need Linux.
- tailspin2019 6y ago
  I too have started to notice some increased “friction” when trying to setup Ubuntu these days. Like you, I don’t care about “snaps” (though in my ignorance I’m willing to accept I may be missing out on something useful...) Even when you go to their Download page for Server, the first option is not a download link but some blurb about “Multipass” which I’m pretty sure is not what the majority of people are looking for when they click a menu option called “Download” for a server OS. But this LinkedIn crap is just awful and surprises me coming from Canonical.
  - Hasz 6y ago
    I've used snap for setting up a Nextcloud server. It was honestly pretty easy, and it auto updates. I'm normally not a fan of autoupdates, but for a publicly accessible service, it is appreciated. However, I've never packaged anything for snap, so not sure how it is to use.
  - simosx 6y ago
    That's the page, https://ubuntu.com/download/server https://ubuntu.com/download/server You get three options to run Ubuntu server. The first option is to run Ubuntu server in a VM, and most users will want to run Ubuntu server in a VM. Multipass is a tool that helps you run Ubuntu server in a VM. Multipass is just a front-end for KVM when you use a Linux distribution. If you use Windows, it is a front-end for Hyper-V, etc. The second option is to perform a manual installation, which means that you get the ISO and do your thing. Between the two, most people would want to install Ubuntu Server in a VM rather than on baremetal. I think it makes sense to put that first. If a person is a power-user, then can read on and select Option 2. I see that there is a perceived negativity on anything Ubuntu that if something is different, it is perceived as something bad is happening.
hedora 6y ago
“Do not sell my personal information.”
- tus88 6y ago
  They aren't. Ubuntu sells commercial support and you bought it when you spun up the image. Ubuntu has the right to know basic details about the customer.
Koshkin 6y ago
We all now know that with these guys you are the product. That's why I prefer Debian.
galacticaactual 6y ago
Yeah it’s creepy. Creepier is the unadulterated vitriol, lashing out, and chaos surrounding Twitter mobs like this one.
coding123 6y ago
This isn't about Azure or Ubuntu. The next 40 years will be filled with special coders adding hooks into everything looking for new monetization channels. Be prepared for this same WTF moment every 5 minutes.
- tailspin2019 6y ago
  Hi, I noticed you posted a comment on Hacker News. Be sure to reach out if there’s anything I can help with?
fireball_blaze 6y ago
Side note... the user on Twitter that originally reported this had his account locked by Twitter for posting the LinkedIn message from the Canonical sales guy. https://twitter.com/LucaBongiorni/status/1359885001844744195 https://twitter.com/LucaBongiorni/status/1359885001844744195
- throwaway077445 6y ago
  I love how being contacted by a salesman that is acting accordingly to the terms of the contract he accepted is BAD! but publishing a private message without consent and without obfuscating name and surname is RIGHT! Some devs have complete disconnect from reality. (ofc he screams #censorship)
  - fireball_blaze 6y ago
    He definitely should have blurred out the name of the salesperson in the original image.
    - ubermonkey 6y ago
      Nope, not morally. Once you send me a message, it's mine. I can tell anybody I want you sent me a message. I can post it publicly if I want.
      - asien 6y ago
        In fact no. Once I send you a message it’s neither yours or mine, it’s owned by the platform. Thus if the platform does not allow for « sharing » without consent you must follow their instructions. Also if you believe privacy is a right, you should ask that person before sharing this digital content he created that has hid identity in it, otherwise you should hide it. For a paper letter it’s obviously different, once you received it it’s obviously yours.
        dredmorbius 6y ago
swebs 6y ago
>I want to OPT-OUT this information sharing I was NOT aware of! Welcome to the world of Microsoft products.
tus88 6y ago
Err that's what happens when you are a customer...the seller gets to know you. Customer? Yes, you are paying Ubuntu for patches and updates. That service is not free.
andred14 6y ago
Can't even read this as I was banned from Twitter for doing nothing but sharing truth and facts. This should alarm you and motivate you to ditch Twitter for other alternatives.
glennvtx 6y ago
I read this is clippy's voice.
glennvtx 6y ago
I read this in clippy's voice.
paule89 6y ago
Before clicking the link I saw a Clippy animation coming up in my Head.
ec664 6y ago
Your first mistake was to use Azure
suyash 6y ago
Microsoft is selling your data, welcome to Azure!
moonbug 6y ago
Nerd gets a product from a marketplace, us surprised to be contacted by a salesman.
drummer 6y ago
+10 for the Stallman triggered meme in that thread
markus_zhang 6y ago
De-cloud bros, everyone de-cloud. Going to create more jobs too.
njkleiner 6y ago
It's a real shame, Ubuntu used to be my go-to distro, but for me this is the last straw in the history of shady things Canonical has done. One of the things I liked most about Ubuntu is that the installation process is incredibly easy and everything "just works". Does anyone know a good alternative? I'd love to go all in on Alpine, but using it on the desktop doesn't exactly spark joy.
- JaggedJax 6y ago
  There's going to be a lot of personal preference involved, but I've moved to Pop! OS which is still Ubuntu/Debian based but very clean, easy to install and use, and we'll supported.
- jeofken 6y ago
  NixOS sparks joy for me, especially when reverting do different systems like you would git checkout a commit
- scrollaway 6y ago
  Desktop: I don't know a single person who went to Arch Linux and regretted it. There is a slight learning curve but nothing a HN reader couldn't deal with. "Just works" type desktop: Don't use linux. Personally, Arch is my go-to desktop and IMO if you can't deal with that, just use macOS or something. There's lots of things that don't "just work" on Linux even today. Bluetooth audio for example has a lot of problems and those will be present cross-distro. The distros have less and less meaning nowadays, they're just what software is shipped in repos and initially. Ubuntu does a lot of custom shit so you want to stay away from them. Debian is constantly out of date but if you don't mind that it's still a solid distro. Fedora has always been pretty good as well but imo is straight up worse than Arch for sort-of-the-same philosophy.
  - njkleiner 6y ago
    Thanks for the suggestions! > "Just works" type desktop: Don't use linux. That's why I preferred Ubuntu, it felt like a good compromise between a Linux system and ease of use (or rather ease of setup). > Just use macOS or something. There's lots of things that don't "just work" on Linux even today. That's actually what I'm currently doing, for pretty much that exact reason. That said, I really want to switch to Linux as my primary OS again, I guess I'll give Arch a try. > The distros have less and less meaning nowadays. That's a good point.
pts_ 6y ago
So what? It costs half of Windows rents and guess what .net can now run on Linux.
larntz 6y ago
I feel like something similar happened with me middle of last year. I was studying for an Azure certification and deployed a few ubuntu servers. Around that time I received an email from someone named Aldo with 'Business Development' in their email signature. We don't use anything from conanical at work and I've never signed up for anything from them that I recall. I remember at the time thinking it was weird to get this email when I had never before used an ubuntu server in azure. I certainly never expressed any interest in "running ubuntu in a secure manner on Azure" to anyone. I received the email on June 6, 2020, and then several follow up emails when I didn't respond. This was the message: > With 85% of enterprises having either a mandate, preference or exploration of open source technology I've connected with many individuals, while working from home, who have reached out to discuss how we provide proactive security for Ubuntu deployments in the cloud. I understand you have similar interests around running Ubuntu in a secure manner on Azure. > Ubuntu Pro, our carefully optimized image for production public cloud environments, provides all-inclusive patching for over 30,000 packages (for up to 10 years), FIPS 401-2 certification and Automated security profiles including CIS and DISA STIG. > That is just a handful of ways we keep companies safe and I was hoping to show you more. How does your schedule look this week, or the next, for a quick chat?
deleted 6y ago
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notreallyauser 6y ago
Two or three ago I spun up a quick Windows VM in Azure for about 20 cents worth of testing. Shortly afterwards I had a missed phone call and then a follow-up email from an Azure salesman inviting me to schedule time to discuss my interest in the platform. I declined and asked to be opted out of anything like that in future, and actually received a pretty unprofessional response to that. So even if Ubuntu aren't allowed to do this kind of thing, MS certainly have themselves in the past.
- iotku 6y ago
  Didn't appear to be on the advertising side of things (yet...), but I had a similar experience when renewing some free Azure credits (from Microsoft Dreamspark or whatever they're calling it now). I kinda figured it was just verifying I was a human, but I've provisioned 10~ or so other VPSes and dedicated servers with a few different providers and never got a phonecall so it was unexpected.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
Lol a similar thing happened to me recently. I spun up a Windows VM on Azure because I had $50 monthly Azure credit with my MSDN anyway which I've never used yet. Immediately I get an email from a sales contact asking me if I need help (and who kept repeating when I didn't reply). It's indeed annoying. It's not as bad as this example because it's the same company I already deal with, which actually makes this legal in Europe. But as someone who is (admittedly) very anti-commercial it annoys me. The strong ties between MS and Canonical are also one of the reasons I dropped Ubuntu from my private life. Another thing that really annoys me about this is that MS removed the "block sender" option in their "New and redesigned!!" version of Outlook for Mac. In many ways the UI of the new version is much better but I strongly relied on that version. They kept the "mark as spam" but it doesn't guarantee that sender is forever blocked.
jcpham2 6y ago
Last time I spun up an Azure instance someone from Microsoft sales called or emailed me. I don’t really understand the issue; the behavior is expected except one company shares marketable data with another and because Linux.
hda111 6y ago
It’s time to switch to fedora on server
- balozi 6y ago
  That's like fleeing CentOS for Oracle Linux.
holtalanm 6y ago
I will never use ubuntu again. There are plenty of other stable linux distros out there.
divbzero 6y ago
“I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure. I’ll be your contact for anything Linux-related in the enterprise. Are you sure you didn’t intend to spin up a Debian image instead?”
withinboredom 6y ago
I've gotten cold calls from CoreOS spun up in Azure as well. This was years ago.
api_or_ipa 6y ago
Time to update the old joke: "Ubuntu is an ancient African word that means 'steals all your information'".
ralph84 6y ago
So somebody started using software sold by a for-profit company and was surprised when that company wanted to follow-up? Is it really that hard to politely say "no thanks, I'm good"? Or just ignore the message completely? Must every annoyance in life be cause for inciting a Twitter mob?
xer0x 6y ago
Oh! All Cloud hosting providers that have Ubuntu available provide Canonical with some information. I didn't realize that it was so personal! I'd heard that this information was used for licensing payments.
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 6y ago
Well now I know he spun up a VM.
noisy_boy 6y ago
I have always wanted to switch away from Ubuntu to Debian but have been wary of losing the convenience of "it just works" (perhaps irrationally so since Ubuntu is based on Debian). That's why I switched to Pop! OS because of their even better seamless integration for switching between Nvidia and intel graphics. Will I lose these conveniences on Debian? Has anyone done such a switch and can share their experience?
AviationAtom 6y ago
I had something similar happen, but more in reverse. We agreed to a case study on their site in exchange for more favorable pricing. Next thing you know my buddy sends me a screenshot asking if this testimonial in a cold sales email is actually from me. Fortunately the company marketing department bend over backwards to try to clean up the mess, but we were less than thrilled that my name/our company name was being used in unsolicited email campaigns.
richardfey 6y ago
Who would have said I'd live to the day when Ubuntu violates privacy and Microsoft reprimands them...
Hacker_IAM 6y ago
Hiii
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ta20210213 6y ago
Databricks does the same thing on Azure. I have had multiple customers contacted directly by Databricks sales. At each incident, I have had the customer complain to me about it. Love the technology, but I no longer trust the organisation

1168 points by fireball_blaze 6y ago

I thought this was going to be a Clippy joke, but the truth was much more disturbing. Why is Microsoft sharing this level of information (from a corporate account) with third parties?

IgorPartola 6y ago
Well I think we all know why. They make money from it. The question that’s more relevant is how many of you are going to cancel your Azure accounts and move to a different host after seeing this and will it lose MS enough money to stop the practice. I’m taking bets that not enough will at 50:1 odds.
- toyg 6y ago
  Do you really think Ubuntu doesn't already have similar agreements with other cloud providers...? Azure is a big fish. If they managed to get that, they definitely got smaller ones.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    Then time to move off Ubuntu? I’ve been a big fan of it for a long time but it seems my servers will be moving to a BSD sooner rather than later.
    - petschge 6y ago
      You could also just use Debian instead of Ubuntu.
      - IgorPartola 6y ago
        But systemd :). Honestly the main servers I am thinking of moving use zfs and zfs on FreeBSD is more of a first class citizen than on Linux.
        jkaplowitz 6y ago
        The zfs reason makes sense, but in recent releases Debian and Ubuntu take the same approach to systemd, so switching between those two wouldn't meaningfully change the init system situation. (I did see the smiley face; this comment is just in case that smiley is more self-deprecation than sarcasm, or for other readers.)
        IgorPartola 6y ago
        I put the smiley there because just the other day I was defending systemd on a different HN discussion as a perfectly usable piece of software. I meant that I wanted to move off a system that uses systemd which would mean both Debian and Ubuntu. It has been a while since I’ve run a non-Linux server so part of it is to stretch my stead in muscles. Don’t want to get rusty.
        jkaplowitz 6y ago
        Gotcha! Keeping skills fresh and broad is a good idea.
        mamcx 6y ago
        How good is freebsd to host a typical PG + nginx + docker + Rust/Python backend? ie: Can I use last versions of everything and expect to work? I have always used ubuntu.
        andrewzah 6y ago
        If you use docker heavily, *bsds are not an option. You do not need a *bsd just for ZFS, although it is supported quite nicely. I use zfs with proxmox for my server, which is debian based. I would recommend using debian buster. People lose their minds over systemd and it's ridiculous. Debian has been the best experience of any distro that I've used, and I've tried most of them. For my router I use openbsd.
    - 95e702cdcbd7d09 6y ago
      Other good reasons to move away from Ubuntu: * They show you ads on login * They periodically phone home with: Ubuntu version, kernel version, architecture, CPU model, curl/wget version, cloud (if applicable; aws/openstack/...). This is part of the delivery system of the ads mentioned above. See /etc/update-motd.d/50-motd-news for the actual script.
      - BelenusMordred 6y ago
        * Snap breaking all the things
  - hvis 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure it's the other way around, and Microsoft has similar agreements with most of its partners. Ubuntu's however, is a free OS, so any cloud hosting can use it without major repercussions even without any support contract with Canonical. Any cloud provider that doesn't like this agreement, doesn't have to make it.
  - TameAntelope 6y ago
    We're all a bunch of tech folks here, so has anyone gotten an email from Canonical after spinning up an Ubuntu instance in AWS or GCP? I've at least done this on AWS and have never seen anything from Canonical.
    - rchaud 6y ago
      Your data is still on their CRM. Perhaps a salesperson looked you up and decided to pass?
      - TameAntelope 6y ago
        Right, hence the open question.
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  It will definitely keep me avoiding marketplace offerings. All we do on Azure is spin up VMs / K8S deployments / Connections to on Prem. The one time we tried to set up SendGrid "from the marketplace", it failed horribly.
  - atraac 6y ago
    We tried making three Sendgrids for every environment but we werent aware that Azure has a limit of two per subscription... We got 'banned' and cannot change any of their passwords, cannot login, remove them, reset in any way, Sendgrid support sends us to Azure support. On Azure support we got an guy who barely spoke english and prolonged the case with meaningless messages for over six months after which we gave up, issue was not resolved, we're stuck with two banned Sendgrid accounts within subscription. I guess spendings of 18k eur/month is not enough to get proper support.
    - throw1234651234 6y ago
      Thanks for that story - now I am really glad it didn't work for us from the start.
- api_or_ipa 6y ago
  It's enough for me to have an extremely bad taste in my mouth, that goes for both Azure and Canonical. On the topic of linux distros, we do use Ubuntu, mostly because that's often the least effort distro to spin up, but the choice of distro is fairly arbitrary nowadays, especially for Ubuntu. My current employer uses AWS so the question of switching platforms probably won't arise now, but whether it's at this company, a new company, or my own side projects, you can bet the decision over which platform to use will come up, and horror stories like this aren't easily forgotten.
agilob 6y ago
> Why is Microsoft sharing this level of information (from a corporate account) with third parties? Because why not, it's allowed by T&C
- temac 6y ago
  Then why do the T&C contain such garbage, and why do people "accept" them (the answer to the last question being that most probably don't read them... well that strategy has its limits, for both parties apparently...)
IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
It’s not a „third party“. The image spun up by the user is published to the Azure marketplace by Canonical.
phreack 6y ago
It definitely gave me Clippy vibes, and suddenly thrust me into a Black Mirror type of situation where a current day Clippy would literally forward all of your work (keystrokes, open programs, files) to sales and ad representatives so they can sell you more stuff. Every day I'm more and more paranoid of big companies now!
- jlgaddis 6y ago
  You realize that pretty much all of that happens when you use Windows 10, yes?
ohthehugemanate 6y ago
The MS response in TFA is illuminating: terms for publishing an image on the marketplace are that MS will make certain information available to facilitate user support. Sales and Marketing are explicitly forbidden uses of this information. Canonical violated their Terms, in what is probably a GDPR violation of some kind if the user is in the EU. What's interesting is whatif any enforcement action comes of this. It's not like MSFT can restrict Ubuntu image use on Azure; Linux is literally the majority of their usage. Can they sue?

superkuh 6y ago

All I see is, "JavaScript is not available."

IgorPartola 6y ago
You should probably enable JavaScript. Sounds like you broke your browser and half the web with it :)
- DocTomoe 6y ago
  Or maybe he has a good reason to keep it turned off. Like avoiding giving people like spammers, scammers, marketers and websites that hire incompetent web developers attention they do not deserve.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    Right. But then stop complaining about it every chance you get. It’s the equivalent of taking the steering wheel out of your car so if you get in an accident you don’t hit your head on it, then complaining that streets have turns. For better or worse, the web now requires JS to function unless you restrict yourself to some very specific communities. If that’s the case and you want to do that, good for you. But every HN thread seems to have a complainer about not being able to use a service that’s built on top of JS.
    - DocTomoe 6y ago
      I disagree. Bad practices, like (linking to) websites that do not degrade gracefully, is worthwhile. Only by creating awareness, change can be invoked.
      - IgorPartola 6y ago
        I would love to see a text editor, a spreadsheet editor, or a piece of mapping software that's as usable as Google Docs and Google Maps that you create with plain HTML :)

maxk42 6y ago

Microsoft I'd expect this from but what the heck was Canonical thinking??

devmor 6y ago
Probably something along the lines of "Hello, I like money."
macksd 6y ago
Canonical has had PR problems with privacy before: submitting desktop searches to external services by default, including Amazon results, etc. At the end of the day they're trying to monetize Linux and they seem less focused on traditional enterprise relationships than Red Hat or SUSE.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Please do not tell me you are so naïve as to believe that Canonical would be above this? It has not gone unnoticed to me that many seem to think that, say, Canonical and Red Hat are not corporations in the traditional sense, for which the customer is prey.

matsemann 6y ago

Is it Azure sharing data, or the Ubuntu images phoning home? Edit: a comment here links to an article with more details. MS shares with Canonical. Bad on both parts I'd say, at least weird usage of the data.

joezydeco 6y ago
Not if you purchase something from Canonical on MS's Marketplace. That's what marketplaces do.
- inetknght 6y ago
  What was purchased from Canonical?
  - db48x 6y ago
    A free copy of Ubuntu, packaged specifically for use on Azure.
    - inetknght 6y ago
      That's not a purchase. Every dictionary I've read has described a purchase to include transferring money and ownership. Starting a VM isn't a purchase of Ubuntu. It's a rental of compute, storage, and network resources. Any other definition is, quite simply, wrong.
      - dspillett 6y ago
        > Any other definition is, quite simply, wrong. Then there are a great many definitions of there that are quite wrong. Many references to organising a service and so forth. This is probably one of those instances where the dictionary needs to catch up. A dictionary documents how language is used at the time of its compilation, it does not dictate how language will/should be used for all time forward.
        6y ago

raesene9 6y ago

The register article on this https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/11/microsoft_azure_ubuntu_data_sharing/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/11/microsoft_azure_ubunt... has responses from Canonical and MS, which shed a bit more light on the situation. The Canonical quote is the most illuminating :- "As per the Azure T&Cs, Microsoft shares with Canonical, the publisher of Ubuntu, the contact details of developers launching Ubuntu instances on Azure. These contact details are held in Canonical’s CRM in accordance with privacy rules. "On February 10th, a new Canonical Sales Representative contacted one of these developers via LinkedIn, with a poor choice of word. In light of this incident, Canonical will be reviewing its sales training and policies."

IgorPartola 6y ago
Wow. I just lost a whole lot of respect for Canonical. “If you read the document we expect nobody to read, you’d know that you sold your soul to us. We didn’t mean for you to find that out but one of our salespeople got overeager and tried to sell you your soul back. He will be reprimanded. Can we all forget about this real quick?”
- rkangel 6y ago
  This was my first response as well (it's not the data sharing that's the problem, it's that you noticed). Thinking about it though, a lot of it is a question of surprise and unknowns. I would find this message to be a lot better - "We see that you've taken advantage of the Ubuntu image that Canonical provide in the Azure Marketplace. I am available to you for (etc.)".
  - inetknght 6y ago
    > * I would find this message to be a lot better - "We see that you've taken advantage of the Ubuntu image* No. That's not better at all. The mere fact that Canonical has specific information to reach me when I am not a direct customer of Canonical is a complete violation of my privacy. Ubuntu is a free product. Canonical should not be able to find out if I (specifically me or my organization) allocates or runs 1 or 10000 instances of Ubuntu.

sudenmorsian 6y ago

> Essentially you're agreeing to a EULA of some sorts, that "offer", and the offer has terms which include a reporting back to publisher. Imagine Oracle using this to capture enterprises that are skirting their license empire. https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168?s=20 https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168?s=20

maltalex 6y ago

FWIW, I have dozens of Ubuntu VMs on Azure. Never got an email like this.

impostervt 6y ago

Great, one more type of message to ignore on LinkedIn.

criddell 6y ago
Do people actually check their messages on LinkedIn?

schnevets 6y ago

Early in my career, I worked for a tiny company that exclusively built plug-ins for a specific SAAS platform. I noticed there was a public-facing page where one could search for any customer of this SAAS platform, so I built a scraper that would auto-search names, main URLs, and ticker symbols for every company on the S&P 500 into this search. I demoed it with 5 companies to a member of the sales team, and he politely asked me to remove the script from the company laptop, and seemed to be annoyed at my script kiddie antics. He said it was nearly impossible to build a lead out of that kind of information, and that any shop that would try and use that kind of poisoned fruit would quickly tarnish their reputation.

duxup 6y ago
>He said it was nearly impossible to build a lead out of that kind of information, and that any shop that would try and use that kind of poisoned fruit would quickly tarnish their reputation. I think one of the caveats to that is good sales folks probably would do exactly as you describe. But there's always good sales folks who are making sales, and then the desperate ones who have nothing but time on their hands to try other things simply because they have time on their hands or are desperate. There are always starving dogs out there.
ufmace 6y ago
That sounds like a quality sales team. Things like the OP tend to happen when you take inexperienced and desperate sales people and make them work on straight commission with no mentorship. Exactly as the person you spoke to feared, this has tarnished the reputation of the entire Canoical organization, which is exactly why you don't do that.

awinter-py 6y ago

interesting to me that the TOS part of this discussion is being prosecuted via screenshots. Most legal disputes online presumably have an element of proving a clickwrap paper trail -- I wonder if there's demand for better tools for capturing what prompts were shown?

ismaildonmez 6y ago

apt-get --purge remove clippy

senormenor 6y ago

The message was sent on LinkedIn, right? Seems relevant to a discussion about LinkedIn that was on the HN front page just a few hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26106810 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26106810

BlueTie 6y ago

As someone who works in tech sales - the real bullshit here is that this is some right-out-of-college 22 y/o entry level sales person (SDR) who was likely told to to take this list and message everyone on linkedin 1x1. The negative impact of this goes on his shoulders where the positive responses from this get passed off to someone else who is outside the blast radius. Stuff like this is the norm when sales is viewed as an extension of marketing ("we need more leads") and not as a function that helps companies coordinate the evaluation and purchase of software ("we need to find out if this is the right fit for them") and the ones who pay the highest price are at the lowest levels when it's executives who are giving the orders.

fireball_blaze 6y ago
> The negative impact of this goes on his shoulders Well, in this case, people are mad at Azure/MS and Canonical for betraying developer trust, not the individual salesperson. He's just a pawn in the game. It's not like this guy went rogue; this is his job. The system is setup in a creepy way to enable this type of upselling, which makes people uncomfortable. Whether or not Azure or Canonical change policies, we shall see.
- BlueTie 6y ago
  > Well, in this case, people are mad at Azure/MS and Canonical for betraying developer trust, not the individual salesperson. He's just a pawn in the game. It's not like this guy went rogue; this is his job. It's still his linkedin profile plastered all over twitter right now though more than Azure's EULA/T&C's.
  - fireball_blaze 6y ago
    But no one is calling this guy a villain. For example, his name is not mentioned once in all these HN comments. It's not his fault. And indeed the Azure T&C's are definitely referenced a in the Twitter discussion with the OP. Such as: https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168 https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168

jbob2000 6y ago

This is incredibly common. I installed an analytics package on my personal heroku account for a side project and received an email on my enterprise email account from their sales department. My personal heroku account uses my personal email address, eg. jbob@gmail.com, but my enterprise account uses my full name, eg. jonathan.bob@bigco.com. There's a sneaky CRM tool floating around that is connecting the dots on people.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
csunbird 6y ago
I think it is apollo, they had linked my job email and personal email already.
bronson 6y ago
This is called data enrichment. It is a massive industry with boatloads of companies serving it. One of the more well known (outside of the credit bureaus) is Acxiom. Googling will get you pretty far. If you have money and a piece of personal info (just about any combo of name+zip, phone#, email addrs, credit card, tracking cookie, etc), these companies can quickly give you full personal details including income and housing history, mortgage status, email addresses used, employment history and full details on your employers, plus all these details on spouses and children, pretty much whatever you want. It's remarkable.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jnwatson 6y ago

I'm super confused as to why anybody thinks this is a problem. Generally, when one "buys" something from a "marketplace" the vendor gets to know who the buyer is. That the vendor asks the buyer if there's anything else they'd want to buy is par for the course.

ryandrake 6y ago
What? When I buy something at a brick and mortar store, I don't expect the product's manufacturer to get my personal information. I don't even expect the store to get my personal information if I pay in cash. I don't want some "relationship" with a company just because I buy their product.
- soared 6y ago
  Well... they do get your personal information along with tens of other companies involved in any transaction. Crm, payment processors, anti-fraud, manufacturers, etc. When you buy a product you agree to whatever terms there are, you only get to write terms if you’re writing up a contract.
- jasonlotito 6y ago
  Sure, but you did notice that they had a mailing list and gave them your name and email address and a bit more information so they could get back to you. This thread explains it in more detail: https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168 https://twitter.com/dezren39/status/1359726235929223168 Seems pretty simple. No real story, other than the OP not paying attention.
  - andrewzah 6y ago
    "Why won't it read?!" That southpark episode, while disturbing, amusingly is spot on.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
  I don’t know why we need metaphors for situations that are this simple. But, in any case, the „Azure marketplace“, as its name implies, acts as a middleman connecting buyers and sellers. In brick-and-mortar terms, it’s closer to signing a cell phone contract with AT&T at an Apple Store.

balthasar 6y ago

I mean just the idea of spinning up linux on Mircrosoft's cloud is pretty funny in and of its self.

nonotreally 6y ago
I think you may be underestimating how big Azure is and how much Linux they do. Although it is fun to think about the 90s version of MS embracing linux to this degree. https://cloudwars.co/microsoft/microsoft-wallops-amazon-in-2020-cloud-revenue-aws-google-cloud/ https://cloudwars.co/microsoft/microsoft-wallops-amazon-in-2... https://build5nines.com/linux-is-most-used-os-in-microsoft-azure-over-50-percent-fo-vm-cores/ https://build5nines.com/linux-is-most-used-os-in-microsoft-a...

waylandsmithers 6y ago

Wow- and I thought it was weird and inappropriate when I got a linkedin message from a MongoDB rep basically saying "Hey! I'm the account manager for your company so let me know if you need help with anything Mongo related!" (subtext being, how can I convince you to use (more) mongo services on your project)

soared 6y ago
I mean the job of an account manager is supporting the client. I don’t know how you can contort that into something to be mad about.
- SilasX 6y ago
  Because they didn’t contact the user through the channel the user authorized the sales rep to content them through. Same as if (in the old days) they looked up your home number from the phone book and called you at home instead of at the work number you gave them.
briman314 6y ago
No doubt that's the subtext but this happens EVERYWHERE. Have you ever downloaded a whitepaper for any vendor and then get harrassed with 4-5 times about talking about it? That sounds gentle in comparison. I would use the opportunity to ask for free swag or training if it was possible. :)

McDyver 6y ago

He seems to have been using a corporate account, and then was contacted via a personal account. This goes to show that, when dealing with big corporations, even when you're paying, you're still the product.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

AtlasBarfed 6y ago

Was this a custom-wrapped ubuntu image, or did someone pick the pre-configured ubuntu image managed by Canonical and Microsoft?

somehnguy 6y ago

I installed Ubuntu onto a physical machine recently because I needed to use a Linux package for something real quick. Upon trying to install the incredibly common package I was given some error about it not existing and some nonsense about using snaps. I don't care about learning how to use snaps, I just want to get something done. I quickly installed Debian instead and got back to doing the work I needed to do. It really soured my opinion of Ubuntu - a distro I first used back when they were still mailing out CDs. This furthers my negative opinion of Canonical and solidifies my position that I'll never use Ubuntu again. Debian it is for me if I need Linux.

tailspin2019 6y ago
I too have started to notice some increased “friction” when trying to setup Ubuntu these days. Like you, I don’t care about “snaps” (though in my ignorance I’m willing to accept I may be missing out on something useful...) Even when you go to their Download page for Server, the first option is not a download link but some blurb about “Multipass” which I’m pretty sure is not what the majority of people are looking for when they click a menu option called “Download” for a server OS. But this LinkedIn crap is just awful and surprises me coming from Canonical.
- Hasz 6y ago
  I've used snap for setting up a Nextcloud server. It was honestly pretty easy, and it auto updates. I'm normally not a fan of autoupdates, but for a publicly accessible service, it is appreciated. However, I've never packaged anything for snap, so not sure how it is to use.
- simosx 6y ago
  That's the page, https://ubuntu.com/download/server https://ubuntu.com/download/server You get three options to run Ubuntu server. The first option is to run Ubuntu server in a VM, and most users will want to run Ubuntu server in a VM. Multipass is a tool that helps you run Ubuntu server in a VM. Multipass is just a front-end for KVM when you use a Linux distribution. If you use Windows, it is a front-end for Hyper-V, etc. The second option is to perform a manual installation, which means that you get the ISO and do your thing. Between the two, most people would want to install Ubuntu Server in a VM rather than on baremetal. I think it makes sense to put that first. If a person is a power-user, then can read on and select Option 2. I see that there is a perceived negativity on anything Ubuntu that if something is different, it is perceived as something bad is happening.

hedora 6y ago

“Do not sell my personal information.”

tus88 6y ago
They aren't. Ubuntu sells commercial support and you bought it when you spun up the image. Ubuntu has the right to know basic details about the customer.

Koshkin 6y ago

We all now know that with these guys you are the product. That's why I prefer Debian.

galacticaactual 6y ago

Yeah it’s creepy. Creepier is the unadulterated vitriol, lashing out, and chaos surrounding Twitter mobs like this one.

coding123 6y ago

This isn't about Azure or Ubuntu. The next 40 years will be filled with special coders adding hooks into everything looking for new monetization channels. Be prepared for this same WTF moment every 5 minutes.

tailspin2019 6y ago
Hi, I noticed you posted a comment on Hacker News. Be sure to reach out if there’s anything I can help with?

fireball_blaze 6y ago

Side note... the user on Twitter that originally reported this had his account locked by Twitter for posting the LinkedIn message from the Canonical sales guy. https://twitter.com/LucaBongiorni/status/1359885001844744195 https://twitter.com/LucaBongiorni/status/1359885001844744195

throwaway077445 6y ago
I love how being contacted by a salesman that is acting accordingly to the terms of the contract he accepted is BAD! but publishing a private message without consent and without obfuscating name and surname is RIGHT! Some devs have complete disconnect from reality. (ofc he screams #censorship)
- fireball_blaze 6y ago
  He definitely should have blurred out the name of the salesperson in the original image.
  - ubermonkey 6y ago
    Nope, not morally. Once you send me a message, it's mine. I can tell anybody I want you sent me a message. I can post it publicly if I want.
    - asien 6y ago
      In fact no. Once I send you a message it’s neither yours or mine, it’s owned by the platform. Thus if the platform does not allow for « sharing » without consent you must follow their instructions. Also if you believe privacy is a right, you should ask that person before sharing this digital content he created that has hid identity in it, otherwise you should hide it. For a paper letter it’s obviously different, once you received it it’s obviously yours.
      - dredmorbius 6y ago

swebs 6y ago

>I want to OPT-OUT this information sharing I was NOT aware of! Welcome to the world of Microsoft products.

tus88 6y ago

Err that's what happens when you are a customer...the seller gets to know you. Customer? Yes, you are paying Ubuntu for patches and updates. That service is not free.

andred14 6y ago

Can't even read this as I was banned from Twitter for doing nothing but sharing truth and facts. This should alarm you and motivate you to ditch Twitter for other alternatives.

glennvtx 6y ago

I read this is clippy's voice.

glennvtx 6y ago

I read this in clippy's voice.

paule89 6y ago

Before clicking the link I saw a Clippy animation coming up in my Head.

ec664 6y ago

Your first mistake was to use Azure

suyash 6y ago

Microsoft is selling your data, welcome to Azure!

moonbug 6y ago

Nerd gets a product from a marketplace, us surprised to be contacted by a salesman.

drummer 6y ago

+10 for the Stallman triggered meme in that thread

markus_zhang 6y ago

De-cloud bros, everyone de-cloud. Going to create more jobs too.

njkleiner 6y ago

It's a real shame, Ubuntu used to be my go-to distro, but for me this is the last straw in the history of shady things Canonical has done. One of the things I liked most about Ubuntu is that the installation process is incredibly easy and everything "just works". Does anyone know a good alternative? I'd love to go all in on Alpine, but using it on the desktop doesn't exactly spark joy.

JaggedJax 6y ago
There's going to be a lot of personal preference involved, but I've moved to Pop! OS which is still Ubuntu/Debian based but very clean, easy to install and use, and we'll supported.
jeofken 6y ago
NixOS sparks joy for me, especially when reverting do different systems like you would git checkout a commit
scrollaway 6y ago
Desktop: I don't know a single person who went to Arch Linux and regretted it. There is a slight learning curve but nothing a HN reader couldn't deal with. "Just works" type desktop: Don't use linux. Personally, Arch is my go-to desktop and IMO if you can't deal with that, just use macOS or something. There's lots of things that don't "just work" on Linux even today. Bluetooth audio for example has a lot of problems and those will be present cross-distro. The distros have less and less meaning nowadays, they're just what software is shipped in repos and initially. Ubuntu does a lot of custom shit so you want to stay away from them. Debian is constantly out of date but if you don't mind that it's still a solid distro. Fedora has always been pretty good as well but imo is straight up worse than Arch for sort-of-the-same philosophy.
- njkleiner 6y ago
  Thanks for the suggestions! > "Just works" type desktop: Don't use linux. That's why I preferred Ubuntu, it felt like a good compromise between a Linux system and ease of use (or rather ease of setup). > Just use macOS or something. There's lots of things that don't "just work" on Linux even today. That's actually what I'm currently doing, for pretty much that exact reason. That said, I really want to switch to Linux as my primary OS again, I guess I'll give Arch a try. > The distros have less and less meaning nowadays. That's a good point.

pts_ 6y ago

So what? It costs half of Windows rents and guess what .net can now run on Linux.

larntz 6y ago

I feel like something similar happened with me middle of last year. I was studying for an Azure certification and deployed a few ubuntu servers. Around that time I received an email from someone named Aldo with 'Business Development' in their email signature. We don't use anything from conanical at work and I've never signed up for anything from them that I recall. I remember at the time thinking it was weird to get this email when I had never before used an ubuntu server in azure. I certainly never expressed any interest in "running ubuntu in a secure manner on Azure" to anyone. I received the email on June 6, 2020, and then several follow up emails when I didn't respond. This was the message: > With 85% of enterprises having either a mandate, preference or exploration of open source technology I've connected with many individuals, while working from home, who have reached out to discuss how we provide proactive security for Ubuntu deployments in the cloud. I understand you have similar interests around running Ubuntu in a secure manner on Azure. > Ubuntu Pro, our carefully optimized image for production public cloud environments, provides all-inclusive patching for over 30,000 packages (for up to 10 years), FIPS 401-2 certification and Automated security profiles including CIS and DISA STIG. > That is just a handful of ways we keep companies safe and I was hoping to show you more. How does your schedule look this week, or the next, for a quick chat?

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notreallyauser 6y ago

Two or three ago I spun up a quick Windows VM in Azure for about 20 cents worth of testing. Shortly afterwards I had a missed phone call and then a follow-up email from an Azure salesman inviting me to schedule time to discuss my interest in the platform. I declined and asked to be opted out of anything like that in future, and actually received a pretty unprofessional response to that. So even if Ubuntu aren't allowed to do this kind of thing, MS certainly have themselves in the past.

iotku 6y ago
Didn't appear to be on the advertising side of things (yet...), but I had a similar experience when renewing some free Azure credits (from Microsoft Dreamspark or whatever they're calling it now). I kinda figured it was just verifying I was a human, but I've provisioned 10~ or so other VPSes and dedicated servers with a few different providers and never got a phonecall so it was unexpected.

GekkePrutser 6y ago

Lol a similar thing happened to me recently. I spun up a Windows VM on Azure because I had $50 monthly Azure credit with my MSDN anyway which I've never used yet. Immediately I get an email from a sales contact asking me if I need help (and who kept repeating when I didn't reply). It's indeed annoying. It's not as bad as this example because it's the same company I already deal with, which actually makes this legal in Europe. But as someone who is (admittedly) very anti-commercial it annoys me. The strong ties between MS and Canonical are also one of the reasons I dropped Ubuntu from my private life. Another thing that really annoys me about this is that MS removed the "block sender" option in their "New and redesigned!!" version of Outlook for Mac. In many ways the UI of the new version is much better but I strongly relied on that version. They kept the "mark as spam" but it doesn't guarantee that sender is forever blocked.

jcpham2 6y ago

Last time I spun up an Azure instance someone from Microsoft sales called or emailed me. I don’t really understand the issue; the behavior is expected except one company shares marketable data with another and because Linux.

hda111 6y ago

It’s time to switch to fedora on server

balozi 6y ago
That's like fleeing CentOS for Oracle Linux.

holtalanm 6y ago

I will never use ubuntu again. There are plenty of other stable linux distros out there.

divbzero 6y ago

“I saw that you spun up an Ubuntu image in Azure. I’ll be your contact for anything Linux-related in the enterprise. Are you sure you didn’t intend to spin up a Debian image instead?”

withinboredom 6y ago

I've gotten cold calls from CoreOS spun up in Azure as well. This was years ago.

api_or_ipa 6y ago

Time to update the old joke: "Ubuntu is an ancient African word that means 'steals all your information'".

ralph84 6y ago

So somebody started using software sold by a for-profit company and was surprised when that company wanted to follow-up? Is it really that hard to politely say "no thanks, I'm good"? Or just ignore the message completely? Must every annoyance in life be cause for inciting a Twitter mob?

xer0x 6y ago

Oh! All Cloud hosting providers that have Ubuntu available provide Canonical with some information. I didn't realize that it was so personal! I'd heard that this information was used for licensing payments.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 6y ago

Well now I know he spun up a VM.

noisy_boy 6y ago

I have always wanted to switch away from Ubuntu to Debian but have been wary of losing the convenience of "it just works" (perhaps irrationally so since Ubuntu is based on Debian). That's why I switched to Pop! OS because of their even better seamless integration for switching between Nvidia and intel graphics. Will I lose these conveniences on Debian? Has anyone done such a switch and can share their experience?

AviationAtom 6y ago

I had something similar happen, but more in reverse. We agreed to a case study on their site in exchange for more favorable pricing. Next thing you know my buddy sends me a screenshot asking if this testimonial in a cold sales email is actually from me. Fortunately the company marketing department bend over backwards to try to clean up the mess, but we were less than thrilled that my name/our company name was being used in unsolicited email campaigns.

richardfey 6y ago

Who would have said I'd live to the day when Ubuntu violates privacy and Microsoft reprimands them...

Hacker_IAM 6y ago

Hiii

deleted 6y ago

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ta20210213 6y ago

Databricks does the same thing on Azure. I have had multiple customers contacted directly by Databricks sales. At each incident, I have had the customer complain to me about it. Love the technology, but I no longer trust the organisation