32 ms·

Poll: Switching from WhatsApp

• knocte 6y ago
  zom?
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    https://zom.im/zomenglish.html https://zom.im/zomenglish.html https://duckduckgo.com/?q="zom"+messaging https://duckduckgo.com/?q="zom"+messaging
  • hlasdjlfhalwjk 6y ago
    In the past, zom was a XMPP client [0]. From what I can see on GitHub, the new version builds on Matrix [1], so there shouldn't be a separate answer for zom. [0]: https://chatsecure.org/blog/chatsecure-conversations-zom/ https://chatsecure.org/blog/chatsecure-conversations-zom/ [1]: https://github.com/zom/zom-android-matrix https://github.com/zom/zom-android-matrix
    • decrypt 6y ago
      I didn't even know Zom was a thing. I thought they meant Zoom.
• approxim8ion 6y ago
  Telegram is a downgrade in terms of both security and privacy. Just leaving the comment for people who consider it. It's an excellent platform and a joy to use but I personally refuse to use it.
  • artemonster 6y ago
    how? I thought they where the first ones to implement e2e encryption?
    • ivan_gammel 6y ago
      It is not default option there. End users need to always remember that they need to use „Secret chats“
    • deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    • arghwhat 6y ago
      - Weird hand-rolled crypto protocol of questionable quality (MTProto). Probably fine in practice, but leaves a bad taste in your mouth, and their marketing to prove it made it worse. It has been through a few revisions since initial scrutiny. - Only Secret Chats are E2EE. Normal use is just subject to transport encryption. However, this is true for any platform with server-side chat history.
      • piyushpr134 6y ago
        "leaves a bad taste in your mouth" - May be you should not try to eat a protocol ?
        • arghwhat 6y ago
          I'm unsure if you're unfamiliar with this phrasing or are simply trolling. If the latter, well played.
    • guitarlimeo 6y ago
      Their e2e encryption only applies to 1-to-1 communication in the form of Secret Chats, which can be opened from a menu multiple clicks away. Default chats and group chats are not e2e encrypted and contents are fully visible to Telegram. This however enables lot of the features Telegram has that Whatsapp/Signal do not (seamless use with multiple clients, powerful search, history is retained after switching phones etc..)
    • unixhero 6y ago
      They lied. Or are technically incompetent. Or both.
  • damidekronik 6y ago
    Downgrade in terms of privacy from WhatsApp? Some explanation is needed for such a bold statement.
    • arghwhat 6y ago
      Much worse protocol, but much better company.
      • levosmetalo 6y ago
        ... but still a company that you have to "trust". I'd rather have a protocol that will allow me to not trust anyone and still be secure/private by default.
        • arghwhat 6y ago
          Then use neither. No protocol allows you to not trust the implementor, and WhatsApp has shown signs of accessing keys.
    • minitech 6y ago
      I think they’re referring to the encryption. Group chats can’t be encrypted end-to-end, direct messages aren’t by default, and the direct messages that are encrypted (”secret chats”) aren’t available on the desktop client.
    • approxim8ion 6y ago
      I'm referring to two things(although really just one) here - WhatsApp claims to store messages only as long as they are undelivered, after which they are purged from their servers. Even if they are retained, they are e2e encrypted. Telegram on the other hand, from what I can see, store all messages in plaintext or in an encrypted-at-rest form where they control and have access to the keys. It comes down to whether I trust them, and I have no reason to. - Tying back into the encryption point, in the event of a breach or an MITM, whoever intercepts or accesses WhatsApp messages will get encrypted dumps, while my Telegram messages are pretty much going to be in plaintext.
  • tlarkworthy 6y ago
    If it's good enough for organised criminals and to anger various governments, it's good enough for me
    • lrvick 6y ago
      Don't forget Apple pressured Telegram to remove rooms or be banned. This type of pressure on centralized systems is exactly why it is unethical as technologists to suggest people centralize the internet. When you choose to send friends to centralized systems you are voting for the internet to have all the problems and advantages of dictatorships. When you support open decentralized protocols you get the problems and advantages of a democracy. Dictatorships can move fast and make sweeping changes. Look at China. Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp, iMessage are all examples of centralized walled gardens, aka dictatorships. They are all doomed to be co-opted into doing something you don't like at some point and you will have no recourse. Meanwhile we have decentralized systems like like HTTP, SMTP, and Matrix. Yes they move slower, are more fragmented, need long periods of carefully discussed and rolled out protocol changes and many implementations and servers to all agree on those to function. Decentralized control is messy, and good UX takes longer to materialize, but that is how the internet was built, and how we kept it from being controlled by a single ISP/Browser like AOL. If you want a modern e2e chat protocol that lets you use any client, server, operating system, or architecture you want and take your social graph with you when you change your mind on any of those things, where no one single entity can change the rules of the network for profit or other reasons... you are looking for Matrix.
      • theshrike79 6y ago
        > Don't forget Apple pressured Telegram to remove rooms or be banned. Apple pressured Telegram to remove specific posts. There was no way to stop spamming the posts, so they removed the whole channel because it was a lot easier.
    • amitport 6y ago
      It's not really "good enough" for them. Some criminals seem to use it but it's just a matter of reputation. It doesn't offer any extra privacy over whatsapp.
  • nervousDev 6y ago
    > Telegram is a downgrade in terms of both security and privacy Care to elaborate? Haven't heard/read anything that points in that direction. Except for the "nearby people" feature but that its up to you to enable.
    • erinnh 6y ago
      Some people are annoyed that the end-to-end encryption isnt on by default. You have to enable it yourself if you want to use it. I agree its a downgrade in security. But I dont agree with it being a downgrade in privacy.
      • viraptor 6y ago
        By default anyone at telegram can read your messages. By default, nobody at Facebook can read your WhatsApp messages. Telegram is a privacy downgrade here.
        • erinnh 6y ago
          Can/Will is a difference. Especially when Facebook will definitely be using all the information it can get to sell profiles of me to others. Another point is to compartmentalize information shared. Id rather share my whole profile in parts to 100 different companies who all arent allowed to share it with each other, than all of it to one company.
        • lrvick 6y ago
          Facebook could push an update tomorrow that subtly modifies the RNG in a very difficult to detect way that allows them to easily brute force all messages. No published source code or alternative implementations so it may take months of RE to notice if it is ever noticed at all. If only a single party with no accountability controls your encryption keys with binaries they compiled from code they wrote that no one else can practically review with an undocumented protocol they can silently change or backdoor at any time, it is not end to end encryption. It is marketing. I hate and refuse to use Telegram like all centralized chat services and feel it is hostile to freedom, privacy, and security but unlike Signal, WhatsApp, iMessage and others Telegram at -least- lets independent third parties like F-droid compile and distribute binaries offering accountability for their E2E claims.
  • kome 6y ago
    It's strange, because I would say Telegram is an upgrade both security and privacy. a. It doesn't require a cellphone always on (most important point for me) b. It's not run by Facebook, or any other FAANG c. It's not based in the USA d. It has a great UX.
• GekkePrutser 6y ago
  I miss matrix in the options. It's the only modern network that still really cares about federation
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    I've tried many, many times to figure out how to use Matrix, and every time I can't make headway. I haven't included it in the options because after trying every six months or so to figure out how to talk one of my colleagues through it I've just given up. Maybe it's time to try again, but all the docs seem to be written by people who assume the wrong things about their readers. Edit: OK, I've added it.
    • viraptor 6y ago
      What do you mean? What kind of problems are you running into? Elements has a trivial 2 taps flow to get to "new direct message", so I'm curious what could go wrong.
  • Zambyte 6y ago
    XMPP :)
• upofadown 6y ago
  Sill on the open federated XMPP network, like always.
• polote 6y ago
  What's next ? What happens when Signal is bought by Microsoft and Discord is bought by Google ?
  • aceelric 6y ago
    Signal can't be bought. They're a non-profit org
    • lrvick 6y ago
      When they run out of money to pay for servers they can sell assets as they please to whomever they please.
      • jaggs 6y ago
        Maybe not? "Signal is an independent nonprofit. We're not tied to any major tech companies, and we can never be acquired by one either."
        • lrvick 6y ago
          And yet you need to be in the Google or Apple ecosystems to connect to their network.
      • frewsxcv 6y ago
        Which app is immune to this?
        • josephg 6y ago
          Moxie doesn't care about sellout money. As I understand it he wants to run signal as a lifestyle business, and he has private donors keeping everything afloat. I'm not sure if it'll stay independant if Moxie ever leaves, but hopefully there's a stable org structure. Source: The JRE podcast he did a couple months back. Also if they ever sell out, the server & clients are completely opensource. It wouldn't take much for someone else to fork the whole thing and run a competing service if we ever need to.
• rzr 6y ago
  + XMPP + IRC Please also mention if there are any client/servers FLOSS
• MyKiwi 6y ago
  I hope https://berty.tech https://berty.tech will be awesome
• vimy 6y ago
  iMessage?
  • viraptor 6y ago
    When switching from WhatsApp you likely don't want to get stuck in an apple-only environment.
• hsuaie777ffo 6y ago
  nobody in my network uses any of the above how are we supposed to switch? by being the weirdo that only wants to use certain platforms?
• jannes 6y ago
  Email? Text messages? Phone calls? Those are the only alternatives with enough penetration to rival WhatsApp (that I know of). I know that they are not secure, but neither is WhatsApp.
  • viraptor 6y ago
    Email and phone calls are not a replacement for an instant messenger. That would be like getting rid of WhatsApp not replacing it. Once RCS gets established though, text messaging may be a reasonable alternative. (As long as telcos don't try to use stupid pricing)
  • studius 6y ago
    Yes, I don't see what the problem with text messaging is. Android now has some compatibility with iMessage, and SMS is standard and supported on most mobile devices, even really old phones. Why lock-in to WA or any of these options in the poll? I'd understand if it were vendor-neutral and decentralized, but I don't see that.
• dhsysusbsjsi 6y ago
  I spent a lot of time testing Signal and it’s come a long way. One great advantage over WhatsApp is emoji reactions on messages like Slack does to avoid the dreaded “haha” taking up threads. Signal seems to support all media I threw at it, and has an awesome MacOS desktop client. Downsides were no web search for group icons (a great feature of WhatsApp) and live location sharing. Overall I am happy to have nearly all of my conversations migrated to Signal over the preview few weeks.
  • Fnoord 6y ago
    > Signal seems to support all media I threw at it, and has an awesome MacOS desktop client. Which one are you referring to? Signal Desktop is just an Electron application AFAICT.
• gbrown_ 6y ago
  Sadly the inertia of WhatsApp is something hard to escape. I would/do choose Signal with a few of my tech savvy friends. But the majority of people I know use WhatsApp, and consequently so do I.
  • JaumeGreen 6y ago
    That's been like that for a long time, several times a month I receive a notification that someone I know comes into Telegram, and even my close family is going into Signal bit by bit. But yeah, here whatsapp is the biggest one still and too many people are using it.
  • Fnoord 6y ago
    I know various people who are not tech savvy, and use Signal. It doesn't require a lot of skill to use Signal; on the contrary. IMO, if you can use WhatsApp, you can use Signal. Some features like Axolotl and 2FA even overlap. That's why I decided to switch away from WhatsApp to Signal. Whoever doesn't follow can send me SMS or e-mail.
    • gbrown_ 6y ago
      I don't mean to say you have to be tech savvy to use Signal but it's mostly tech savvy people that want to use it.
• schoenobates 6y ago
  Have been investigating matrix/element.io over the last few months so will probably move to that
  • kevincox 6y ago
    I have been using matrix mostly as an IRC/Gitter client but also for a small number of non-technical friends. It is making excellent progress but has a long way to come. However I do think it is the right investment due to the direction and funding it has. Some weak points (based on using element.io clients which has some features that aren't core matrix): - Cross-session signing is not natural to set up for users, however this likely isn't much of an issue as most of these will just use it on their phone. However this can also be an issue if they want to switch device but lost their keys. - e2e verification is a bit awkward. No great TOFU option which makes initial setup a bit awkward, you can do it but the UI doesn't encourage it. It would also be interesting to have the option to "share" your verification. So if friend X says they trust these keys for friend Y I can import Y without further verification. - Occasionally new devices don't want to send messages to the remote user's session. So the user just gets a "Message encrypted" notification with no indication to me that I sent a message not encrypted to all of the user's sessions. - Voice + Video is super basic for 1:1 calls. For >2 users it uses Jitsi which is fantastic but this different UX between the two is also confusing. I'm hoping that when Jitsi launches e2e encrypted calls it can just be used for everything. - Visually the app is cluttered and not perfectly clear. For 1:1 calls "bubbles" such as used by most chat apps are super clear. Matrix uses a design better for many user chats but can be less clear. Especially replies look a bit odd in Element. - URL previews are only supported on web and need to be turned on per-chat (if encrypted). This is for legitimate privacy reasons but is a sacrifice of UX. Overall once you get it set up it just works and has all of the features that a user would expect. However I'm looking forward to a lot of the polish landing which will make it compelling on UX grounds alone, whereas now it just seems like the best compromise when you consider the privacy and decentralization features.
• notretarded 6y ago
  I'm gonna stay on WhatsApp. Can't beat convenience. Also good luck getting granny and grandpa to move to some weird ass app that barely works or has weird onboarding or unintuitive UX.
• cameronperot 6y ago
  I have been using Signal since before it was even called Signal (TextSecure and RedPhone), and I must say it has really refined itself over the years. It's pretty easy to set up these days, and I have more non tech oriented friends switching over seamlessly. I use Signal's voice and video calling features as well without any issues.
• lrvick 6y ago
  Doc friends and I assembled to compare the features (we feel) matter most across all major messengers. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-UlA4-tslROBDS9IqHalWVztqZo7uxlCeKPQ-8uoFOU/edit https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-UlA4-tslROBDS9IqHal...
  • kartoshechka 6y ago
    Amazing job! Though kinda funny nothing is all green
• erinnh 6y ago
  Been using mostly Telegram over the last year. About 80-90% of my regular contacts were using it already, got a few more to use it today. 2-3 People are using other contact options like Discord or SMS. Which is fine with me.
• unicornporn 6y ago
  Matrix with nerds and nerd friends. Signal with friends and family.
  • cedricbonhomme 6y ago
    Totally. And now, I will easily convert some members of my family to Matrix.
    • unicornporn 6y ago
      It's getting there with clients like https://f-droid.org/packages/de.spiritcroc.riotx https://f-droid.org/packages/de.spiritcroc.riotx and https://f-droid.org/packages/org.tether.tether https://f-droid.org/packages/org.tether.tether But just explaining the concept of clients in 2021 is an undertaking.
• gpo 6y ago
  Since we can't possibly include all available options, how about adding an "Other" option?
• fbn79 6y ago
  Why not came back to plain old email? The email delivery system is decentralized and can support p2p encryption. You can have "chat-like" user experience with apps like Mailtime (https://mailtime.com/ https://mailtime.com/)
  • firepoet 6y ago
    I hadn't heard of mailtime! Last one I used was DeltaChat (https://delta.chat/ https://delta.chat/) and it was super slow.
  • viraptor 6y ago
    The same features are just not available. And messages may arrive sometime between 2 second and 2 days with no indication what happened. (Yes, highly skewed towards 2s, until you get graylisted)
  • josephg 6y ago
    People keep saying email has encryption, but in the rare cases when email is encrypted with pgp, only the contents of the messages get encrypted. Not the metadata. And apparently the metadata is the most valuable data for government snoops. They don't care as much what you've been saying, but knowing that you've been emailing back and forth weekly with some person of interest over the last 5 years is what they're really after. Also pgp doesn't support any of signal's key ratcheting or deniability. And the web of trust leaks information publicly about who your contacts are! (And its vulnerable to Sybil attacks.) Don't get be wrong, I love email and think its great. But it doesn't hold a candle to Signal when it comes to secure communication.
• 0x_rs 6y ago
  Been using Telegram for a long time. I don't trust it any more than I do with WhatsApp (therefore, Facebook), however it is well done and thought out, has a real desktop client with a real desktop UI toolkit and enough of my contacts are on it already, therefore it's the best compromise to me. I greatly dislike Signal's UI when I tried it out and I've read about some weird decisions lately (that "using a PIN? uploading to cloud" debacle some time ago). I also believe it shouldn't require a phone number if its focus is privacy and security. Matrix would be my go to in concept, but its userbase is even smaller. At the same time, alas, I am forced to keep using WhatsApp because "everyone" is on it, and if you aren't, you're going to miss out, be it parents school chats, work groups, less tech-savvy friends, parents..
  • hrns 6y ago
    Signal requires phone number in order not to store your contact list on their servers. Instead of id's/email addresses/nicknames they are using your phone contact list. IMHO that's better for privacy.
    • remirk 6y ago
      That depends on what you want with privacy. If you'd want to chat anonymously, having to use your real phone number is a bummer. At least in my country, it's getting harder and harder to get a SIM-card that is not tied to your name. The alternative is getting a burner SIM-card. Though, that will become harder once more prepaid providers require your ID.
      • danlugo92 6y ago
        If you got a friend in Colombia they can hook you up with unlimited SIM cards for like $3 a pop.
        • dmurray 6y ago
          Columbia? It's racked with rioting and civil unrest right now according to the world news. Hardly a stable place to get my telecoms supplies from. Or if you did mean Colombia, why would the average HNer have friends there?
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• captainmuon 6y ago
  Is Matrix a good alternative to Signal? I'm currently using Signal, but I'm not entirely satisfied. My major issues are that I don't like their stance on a couple of issues: third party clients are not allowed, mobile first and desktop is only synced, phone number required, and distribution only over the app stores. Also we frequently get "encryption errors" and everybody ignores them, this is worse than with SSH key errors :-).
  • robjan 6y ago
    There is more metadata with Matrix but the privacy and security of message content is good. I find the UX a bit clunky because it's kind of trying to combine bits of a instant messenger with something like slack.
  • zaggynl 6y ago
    matrix-synapse(server) suffers from performance issues[1], dendrite[2], the replacement should be resolving that but is currently in beta. Apart from that it integrates fairly well with other networks through bridges.[3] It can be self hosted and it federates, which is a pro. Not too sure about audits and security, it has improved much, when I started using it (2019) they didn't have login throttling[4] and shortly after that were breached.[5] Much has improved since. [1] https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+performance https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is... [2] https://matrix.org/docs/projects/server/dendrite https://matrix.org/docs/projects/server/dendrite [3] https://matrix.org/bridges/ https://matrix.org/bridges/ [4] https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/1452 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/1452 [5] https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/83751/data-breach/matrix-org-hack.html https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/83751/data-breach/matri...
    • remirk 6y ago
      Your first link lists a lot of tickets than actual performance issues. Searching on an issue tracker for the word 'performance' is not a good source for claiming there are performance issues. Synapse used to have scaling issues. Those are pretty much fixed.[1] [1] https://matrix.org/blog/2020/11/03/how-we-fixed-synapses-scalability https://matrix.org/blog/2020/11/03/how-we-fixed-synapses-sca...
• NNNeuar 6y ago
  Jami? https://jami.net/ https://jami.net/
• shrikrishna 6y ago
  I like wire (https://wire.com/en/ https://wire.com/en/) but no one I know uses it :-/
  • Brendinooo 6y ago
    I use it as well. It has some quirks but generally does what I want it to do.
  • temptemptemp111 6y ago
    And you can actually host your own Wire server!
  • Asturaz 6y ago
    I use Wire, have only two contacts which also using Wire. I like that they have published the server source code https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server https://github.com/wireapp/wire-server
  • px43 6y ago
    Wire is pretty popular in my social circles, less so lately, unfortunately. The "always on" encryption is great, and it's always been more stable, and had a more complete feature set than Signal, even at launch. Most importantly, migration between devices with Wire is super smooth. It definitely should be in the poll.
• MattJ100 6y ago
  If you don't care about centralized/US-based but care about privacy (I assume you wouldn't be leaving WhatsApp otherwise), go for Signal. But if you want to avoid a repeat of what's happening with WhatsApp, support decentralized alternatives. Go for solutions that are built on Matrix or XMPP, the primary contenders in this space. Both are open networks with plenty of open-source software, public servers, paid hosting (i.e. you are not the product) and self-hosted options. Personally I'm in the XMPP camp, and working on https://snikket.org/ https://snikket.org/ specifically as an alternative to WhatsApp and the other centralized services.
  • b6z 6y ago
    I think one of the main problems protocols like XMPP and Matrix have to solve is the combination of good crypto + decentralization + offline-capability.
• Lazare 6y ago
  Telegram is a great IM experience. The client is good, feature set is good, the stickers are amusing (if you're into that kind of thing), the feature set is complete and everything is polished. Telegram is, I think, going to be one of the easier sells if you're trying to convince non-technical users to switch from WhatsApp or FB Messenger. The privacy, security, and governance story is not great though. If you care about such things, I think Signal wins hands down. And the UX is fine, just not quite as good as Telegram in my view. (A third option not in your poll that might be worth evaluating is Wickr. I haven't used it personally, but I've seen it come up in these sorts of discussions.)
  • Erazal 6y ago
    /Aside First time I'm meeting my virtual Doppelganger, best part is, it's on HN !
    • einpoklum 6y ago
      Yeah, you and me both. Took the words out of my mouth.
    • serbrech 6y ago
      My mother's family name is "Lazare". it's pretty common isn't it?
      • Erazal 6y ago
        Humm, not where I come from (France). And it's actually my first name !
  • pelasaco 6y ago
    if with Telegram "the privacy, security, and governance story is not great though", why would you migrate from WhatsApp to Telegram in first place? I personally have all 3 (Signal, WhatsApp and Telegram) and use all three with different groups and scenarios. For example: - With my mom and grandmom: WhatsApp - Group of friends from jiu-jitsu: WhatsApp - Work Colleagues and friends working with Network Security: Signal - Notifications from services that I run like weather station, waves forecast, how full my gym is right now, some other batch services that I have: Telegram There is no reason to be radical here. We have options, and that's great!
• ramshanker 6y ago
  There should be an option “Not Switching”. My vote.
• sidcool 6y ago
  Why is Viber even listed.
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    Because it was listed as an option in answers to an earlier question elsewhere, and I wanted people's opinions on it. Ditto Zom and Threema.
  • egwor 6y ago
    It was (maybe still is) quite big in Asia too
• lucideer 6y ago
  NOTE: I don't know what Zom is so ignoring it in the below. Viber, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram, Threema and Discord are all built on the same paradigm: accounts tied to a single service and thus the inertia of network effect makes vendor lock-in a real problem when acquisitions happen or Terms of Service change. Signal is in theory the "best" of these 5 options in the short-term, but it being open source is utterly irrelevant when you consider the network effect lock-in of a single-service model. In fact, Telegram is probably a "more open" option given the portability its API provides. Openness vs privacy/security are entirely different concerns in isolation, but I believe openness is most important for providing a model upon which privacy can be sustained in the longer term. Of course Matrix is the only truly long-term sustainable option of these. Encouraging users to move to any of the others will only lead to this discussion re-occurring down the line. And being ultimately more difficult as platform-switching fatigue intensifies.
  • josephg 6y ago
    Moxie Marlinspike (the guy behind Signal) talked about his rationale for making signal centralized here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 Its been a year and I'm still not sure if I agree with him - which is the sign of a very juicy talk!
    • lucideer 6y ago
      I watched that at the time. I found his insistence on comparing his 7-year-old centralised protocol to a 60-year-old federated protocol uncompelling: his point that "nothing changes with federated protocols" was slightly undermined by that gargantuan gap of inception. Couple that with the highly conspicuous skipping over of XMPP (much more comparable, only the briefest of mentions, no mention of things like OMEMO), and ignoring of Matrix (the most comparable, and not a single mention). Overall it's a pretty ridiculous talk in this context. He goes on to describe some challenges for federated protocols in their solutions to censorship, availability & control. On censorship, the challenges are real and it's QUITE EASY to reason about possible solutions. Many of which already exist or are in development. It's clear he hasn't spent much time thinking about this. On availability, his entire argument is "Yahoo mail exists"; his discussion here is just straight-up disingenuous. Finally, on control, he segues into unrelated areas around XMPP extensibility and seems to think extensions have no value without ubiquity (though fails to expand on his reasons for this conclusion). I'd agree XMPP's XEPs are highly flawed architecturally, but again... there's newer protocols, we've learned and evolved this already. Leaving aside that the bulk of the middle of the talk is exclusively selling new features ("new techniques") of Signal that have no direct connection to the talk's stated topic ("distributed and decentralized technology"), there are a few salient points he made that I'd agree with: 1. Federated & decentralised protocols are by their nature harder to do, and harder/slower to change. This is true, but is by no means an absolute; it's a trade-off against other benefits. 2. E2E encrypted email is too hard and probably not worth doing. Yes, PGP is highly flawed, and in general layering encryption on top of a 60-year-old protocol is hard. (Though as above, his insistence on focusing only on email for comparison rather than Signal's direct viable competitors is telling). 3. Signal's E2E/crypto-specific innovations are cool, and current federated state-of-the-art is behind on many of them.
• esc4dinh4 6y ago
  Signal see to be a good choice. I have used Telegram and whats app but after this whats claim im asset with it. I'm going to signal.
• pdimitar 6y ago
  I use Telegram long before it became sort of mainstream and I haven't regretted that decision for a minute, minus their outages that started happening once every few months lately and are worrying. Tried Whatsapp once, hated it, never tried again. Viber is even worse. Telegram has been what an IM program should be, for years now (it gave me the vibe of my much beloved Miranda IM almost 20 years ago). I'd love it if they added more link previews (9GAG and Instagram previews stopped working almost a year ago and the functionality was never recovered) and even more keyboard shortcuts for full navigation without a mouse -- but even without these it's the most solid IM experience I ever had. Maybe they are not as encrypted or protected in general as Signal. Maybe (but what do we know about Signal, save for a lot of claims?). But the fact that several governments and corporations demanded them to give access to various keys or to shut down channels is a testament that Telegram isn't as amateur in encryption and protection as the overly nitpicky HN audience would have you believe.
  • sdfhbdf 6y ago
    Telegram has a broken business model from the start. It doesn't make money and it's not sustainable. Somebody could take over telegram and start a pretty similar service to facebook since most of the chats are not encrypted. So if Durov were not to lead his vision of 100% free Telegram it might get really bad. A service ran on savings of the founder as philantropic as he is is not sustainable. They will either pivot to ads, to profiling or something paid subscription any of which will probably not be received well. You can see more here: https://fourweekmba.com/telegram-business-model/ https://fourweekmba.com/telegram-business-model/
    • pdimitar 6y ago
      They recently did pivot to ads but only in certain chats -- for most users nothing will change. And I am glad they did because I want them to survive. Also, Durov has been strongly resistant both to censorship and takeover attempts so far. Which is more than I could say for your average SV startup. I am siding with Telegram still. They have proven themselves many times over and I can only hope that this will continue.
• Bellamy 6y ago
  I like Threema because it works and the business model simple. Pay a few bucks and get it forever.
  • robjan 6y ago
    The business model is unsustainable and relies on constantly growing the userbase since there is no recurring revenue.
    • killertcell 6y ago
      They have Threema Work, which is (in business model) similar to Slack
    • benhurmarcel 6y ago
      It's still a lot more sustainable than their competitors.
    • brobinson 6y ago
      They have Mercedes-Benz and Bosch and other heavy hitters as clients. I think they'll be okay.
• dividedbyzero 6y ago
  It would (have been?) interesting to know who isn't switching anywhere (and/or not considering to switch) Also, I can't seem to find anything about a messenger named Zom, do you mean Zoom? If so, is Zoom really something people use for the same use case as Whatsapp?
  • mkl 6y ago
    https://zom.im/zomenglish.html https://zom.im/zomenglish.html As ColinWright notes elsewhere, a search for ["zom" messaging] finds it.
  • rvanmil 6y ago
    Not switching, because switching won't change anything except for me not being able to message anyone anymore. WhatsApp has become the national messaging platform in my country. Giving it up would be like giving up SMS 20 years ago.
  • gambiting 6y ago
    I'm not switching anywhere. Maybe I could get my closest friends to switch, but WhatsApp is so absolutely ubiquitous that I know I'll continue using it to chat with others, that's how I've been contacting contractors, clients, where we have interest groups....I'll start switching over when people I know do.
• defanor 6y ago
  I've never used WhatsApp (and only briefly tried some of the other listed messengers), but switching from one centralised and commercial system, once it runs into issues as many similar systems did before it, to another very similar system, doesn't seem quite wise. Personally I'm using XMPP and IRC for instant messaging, and tend to recommend the former: it's a nice and federated protocol, with users and software, and perhaps one of the least offenders wrt fragmentation of messengers. Was surprised to see neither of those among poll options.
  • m_st 6y ago
    Full ack. But then try connecting with your non-tech friends using XMPP or IRC. Won't do.
    • SamWhited 6y ago
      That depends on the client; Quicksy (https://quicksy.im/ https://quicksy.im/) makes contact discovery pretty easy.
    • defanor 6y ago
      Non-technical people (friends and family) seem to be fairly comfortable using Conversations on their smartphones, and converse.js seems quite user-friendly in a web browser. But it indeed doesn't always work, and there are people with whom I "only" communicate via phone, email, and in-person.
    • addicted 6y ago
      Wasnt Google Talk XMPP? It was highly successful and used by ordinary folks all over.
      • MattJ100 6y ago
        Yes. Google's longest-running messaging service, according to https://killedbygoogle.com/ https://killedbygoogle.com/ Also they don't advertise it, but it's actually still running... just no new features, no compatibility with Hangouts/etc. and of course they disabled federation.
• llimos 6y ago
  How many people answering this poll have the power to determine which platform all their contacts move to?
  • tadzik_ 6y ago
    Surprisingly many, if you're bold enough to try. The only reason me and my circle of friends use Telegram is because one of us was using an Ubuntu Phone at some point, and that was the only acceptable messaging app he could use, so we all moved on. It requires a certain authority in your group, but people are likely to adapt to you if they care about you, even if your choices inconvenience them slightly. Of course it's never going to be "all their contacts", but the only platform that actually has all my contacts on it is good old SMS anyway.
    • sambe 6y ago
      I also use Telegram because one of my friends was really stubborn. Like many here, I think it's a great service/client but probably has some security issues (although they are largely trade-offs). However, I don't agree that my example backs your view: there's no way I could get my other friends and family to switch en-masse. I still only use it pretty much with that one friend and a small group around him. And all the others say the same: they hate on the guy for being a pain despite liking the app.
  • depingus 6y ago
    Sometimes its about opportunity. I've been using Telegram for years with just a handful of people (and a bunch of bots...love Telegram's API). About 8 months ago my niece discovered that WhatsApp was owned by Facebook (so uncool) and switched to Telegram all on her own. I took that opportunity to onboard my mom and sister who then brought on some mutual friends. And just like that...WhatsApp was gone from my phone! This new agreement might hatch similar opportunities.
• ddevault 6y ago
  IRC. IRC has been around for the rise and fall of everything else on your list, and a dozen more that we've already forgotten. I have used IRC for my entire life and I see no reason to switch.
  • prajjwal 6y ago
    As much as I love IRC, it is fundamentally incompatible with the way people use IM these days. Even if you gloss over the lack of "modern" features, you're still going to have a very hard time with vanilla IRC on mobile where keeping a persistent background socket open is frowned upon (if not outright illegal). Don't get me wrong - I love IRC, and have used it as my primary social network for years. And after spending a full decade trying to switch people over to open protocols, I've found the hard way that the network effect trumps all. I just don't see the average Whatsapp user ever switching to IRC.
    • ddevault 6y ago
      >I just don't see the average Whatsapp user ever switching to IRC. The participants of this thread are not the average Whatsapp user - they're self-identified "hackers".
• gyosko 6y ago
  The problem is not finding a nice alternative. The problem is that everybody's contacts are on Whatsapp. How do you make THEM switch?
  • dustinmoris 6y ago
    You uninstall WhatsApp and tell your closest family and friends that they can only reach you on Signal. Because you are so important to them, they will install Signal as a backup/secondary app. Other people will do the same, and it will snowball into everyone having Signal installed and at some point people will realise that the network effect is gone.
    • boraoztunc 6y ago
      This is happening. First they get surprised that communication is possible beyond WA, even exactly the same. My mother's reaction was hilarious after sending me photos from Signal, free of charge. She was thinking only WA is free, every other app will charge her. I had to explain that calling, voice or video is also possible, without any payment.
      • voidmain0001 6y ago
        How is free sustainable for Signal? I understand why WA is free based on data collection, but Signal just seems too benevolent toward its users. I read up on Signal Foundation (Acton and Marlinspike) as a non-profit which is being buoyed along by $100M from Acton. Mozilla is a non profit too, but it gets money from Google for placing Google search in Firefox. Where is the long term cash flow for Signal?
        • ssivark 6y ago
          I wouldn’t be surprised if the WhatsApp founders, between the two of them, can easily sponsor Signal’s lean team for decades. (Since they’ve shown the inclination with substantive initial investments already, I’d imagine that they’ll happily keep funding if Signal continues to be used)
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• dan-robertson 6y ago
  Perhaps there should be an option for (willingly or not) still using WhatsApp?
• PascalPrecht 6y ago
  Adding Status.im for completeness https://status.im/ https://status.im/
  • PascalPrecht 6y ago
    Checks all the privacy boxes
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• zoobab 6y ago
  Telegram.
• CubsFan1060 6y ago
  One of the killer features to me is being able to use a client on many varied systems (phone, tablet, computer), which my chat history shared between them. This allows me to very easily get messages anywhere, and pick up the conversation anywhere. Which of these support that?
  • read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    I think that's a common feature, but the Telegram desktop client is particularly good.
  • input_sh 6y ago
    Signal will sync your message history from the point you link multiple devices (not those sent/received prior to that), but no tablet support (unless you're talking about iPad).
    • CubsFan1060 6y ago
      Curious, how does it do that? Are the messages stored on a server? Just delivered to all devices? Delivered to one then dispersed from there?
  • jojobas 6y ago
    Matrix/Element supports that with a caveat - encrypted chats are not exactly searchable (requires client side search which seems to not be there yet).
  • newscracker 6y ago
    Telegram and Wire for sure will work for this. Signal is also ok, with clients on different devices, but it’s still lacking in reliability and has some messaging issues. For example, on Signal, I got a message from someone I hadn’t messaged for a long, long time asking me to re-send my message because they saw a “bad message” error. I have no idea what that was about.
  • skrap 6y ago
    Matrix supports this. (Check element.io for a good client)
• m_st 6y ago
  Apple opening up iMessage, running it cross platform and maybe through some independent company would put an end on this discussion. There won't be money in it for them. But it would even further improve their privacy-first market(ing) position. And they would have the leverage to really achieve it.
  • m_st 6y ago
    In the meantime I have like 6 messaging clients, 5 car park apps and 7 covid-restaurant-tracking apps on my phone. Remembering which contact is in which app is a pain. Now explain that to your non-tech friends.
• WillYouFinish 6y ago
  I've been a Threema user for over 7 years now and I have my most important contacts there. Telegram is no E2E-Messenger. I know you can enable it per chat, but that's so solution. And groups are always not encrypted. Also they use some non-standard encryption. Why? Signal needs my phone number. I dislike that idea. I use Discord for anything unimportant. I prefer to not use it though. For voice I still prefer TeamSpeak, because of the end to end encryption and self hosting. I don't know or don't use the others.
• lawlorino 6y ago
  Why is there no option for staying with WhatsApp? My reality is that none of my friends and family will care enough to switch, so whether I like it or not I'm stuck.
• Hamuko 6y ago
  I'm already using Signal as a secondary messaging service (since someone I know didn't use WhatsApp) so I'll just switch to that. Luckily I don't have any friends on WhatsApp, so the transition will be easier. Let's see if my family cares enough about messaging me that they'll download Signal.
  • dustinmoris 6y ago
    > I'm already using Signal as a secondary messaging service (since someone I know didn't use WhatsApp) so I'll just switch to that This 100%. So many responses talk about the "network effect", but realistically it only needs that one key person in everyone's phone book who refuses to use WhatsApp in order to move entire swathes of people to install Signal at least as a secondary app. Be that one person!
• 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
  just finally installed matrix on my phone, been using it on desktop on and off for years. never used whatsapp in the first place but the way i see it, where i live e2e f whatsapp is worthless, harmful even because you cannot express dissent as our kyc compliant phone is linked. same for telegram and signal. i might end up setting up my own matrix server but will see about that.
• levosmetalo 6y ago
  As much as I would like to resist, I will have to surrender and accept the new terms for WhatsApp. The network effect is so big here, that none really bother using anything else. Just checked my address book, and I have 100+ contacts using WhatsApp, ~15 on Viber, ~15 on Telegram and ~10 on Signal, and I don't care much about most of those people on other messengers.
• kome 6y ago
  I vote for Telegram as well. You can't use Signal without a cellphone... and cellphones are a privacy nightmare. I activated Telegram with a burner phone number, and I don't have to keep the phone on to use Telegram on desktop or online. I never shared any contact with Telegram, and I added everybody manually. You don't have to give your number to be added on telegram, you can use an @handle. A a lot of people among my friends are organically switching to telegram.
  • newscracker 6y ago
    Actually, you can do the burner phone thing with Signal too. With Telegram, whoever gets that number later (if you discard it) can possibly also get your account and messages (though you’d get a warning). With Signal, even if someone did that, they wouldn’t get your past conversations and your account would get disabled the moment the other person activates.
• cs64org 6y ago
  telegram
• fsflover 6y ago
  See why Signal is not much better than Whatsapp: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668659 Edit: if you would like to avoid constant switching in the future, you have to think long-term and consider a distributed network, not another walled garden.
  • agilob 6y ago
    You are completely missing the point of todays discussion, it's not about who can distribute binaries or implement client. It's about not giving Facebook more data.
    • fsflover 6y ago
      From this point of view you can switch anywhere. But if you would like to avoid constant switching in the future, you have to think long-term and consider a distributed network, not another walled garden. Edit: Matrix solves all problems I refer to.
      • Fnoord 6y ago
        > From this point of view you can switch anywhere. The point isn't to not give Facebook more data; it is to not give anyone more data. Which is the case with Signal, but not with say Discord or Zoom. Telegram uses homebrew crypto and for some reason doesn't have E2EE enabled by default.
      • agilob 6y ago
        >you have to think long-term and consider a distributed network, not another walled garden. Like IRC or Jabber?
    • est31 6y ago
      The issue is that it gives Signal a lot of control. Don't like some new or existing behaviour of the client? With Matrix you can just use an alternative client. And there is a growing ecosystem of them. With Signal you have to use it whether you want to or not.
• robinhood 6y ago
  Telegram. Been using it for years. I regret that they try to implement features that are not core to the IM world, like their support for voice or video calls that are really junky and buggy --- but overall it’s a great tool, accessible on all platforms without being tied to your phone (like the web version of Whatsapp). As long as I can be far away from the Facebook world, I’m happy.
• sturza 6y ago
  what a time to be alive
• ddorian43 6y ago
  The whole country (Albania) is in Whatsup. Unless you want to do social suicide you stay in it.
  • sgt 6y ago
    I thought that in Albania, telegrams are more common?
    • ddorian43 6y ago
      Nope, never heard of anyone using it locally.
• VadimPR 6y ago
  Already switched to Signal/Telegram with a preference for the former, and pinged my friends with the same.
• swiss-cherenkov 6y ago
  Threema - little swiss company - needs our help :)
• rottc0dd 6y ago
  I just have joined Discord because, I joined a language class and needed some way to communicate to the classmates. And all other people are on whatsapp, and hence it became official channel of communication. A fellow classmate was kind enough to join discord to have discussions and give me updates. Due to network effects, whatsapp still holds lion share. It is not a problem if it is optional tool that has to be used just for talking to friends. But, I am seeing it is being used for even communicating to school children by teachers and schools as almost official channel! In such cases, there does not exist much choice, at least in my country. People just refuse to use mail or call directly.
• k__ 6y ago
  The last time this came up was when WhatsApp was bought by Facebook. All my friends splittered around Telegram, Signal, Threema, Riot etc. I wish we could finally find one system to use again.
• Silhouette 6y ago
  One thing I'd like to know about any messaging platform is how easy it is to export my messages for backup purposes. Signal, for example, seems to be designed to store messages only on a single active device, which is normally a mobile device. Lose access to your device, perhaps to theft, maybe to accidental damage or hardware failure, and you lose all your messages. I'm all for privacy, but security matters too, and that includes being able to keep safe copies of my own data on my own terms. With things like emails, or even mobile SMS messages, there are tools widely available to do this, and I can export my data and have it encrypted locally and then stored safely off-site. Too many new messaging systems seem to be fighting against this for various reasons, and I don't think it's a healthy trend.
• rd11235 6y ago
  The two that stand out are telegram and signal, and which is better for you depends on your personal balance of usability vs. privacy. I personally can't use signal. It's great that it's secure, but I can't tolerate frequent reliability issues when it comes to messaging. The first thing that comes to mind is group chat, and having messages show up in a different order on everyone's phones (discovered via screenshots), often with multiple-hour delays.
• blue_box 6y ago
  The problem about Telegram is that the default conversation is not end-to-end encrypted.
• alexobenauer 6y ago
  Big fan of Quill as well (https://quill.chat https://quill.chat) — it is marketed towards teams, but you can use it just like Telegram & others to DM others without needing to create a team.
• boraoztunc 6y ago
  Signal, for a long time. I see myself responsible for spreading the message, educating my inner circle, family and friends, helping them migrate if they are willing to. This became a duty for me, as I've been saved from FB products for a long-time ago, thanks to people enlighten me. And life is pretty much the same without them. Don't care what others say, I'm not old school, even I'm pretty old. I can message people one way or another, sms or Signal currently. But none of them matters, the psychological trap that they put us, life is hard, even not possible without any of the products they (we) are producing, is just absurd. I never blamed technology or any algorithms, people was evil before and still the same. I'm so glad, the folks here that I find brilliant, is having this conversation. Just keep the dialogue going, it is working. Change happens in small steps, one people, one family, one neighbourhood at a time.
• tiborsaas 6y ago
  Sadly, I have to stick to Messenger. All my contacts and friends are there.
• uptown 6y ago
  Signal. Only thing I don't like about it is the regular reminders to re-enter my pin.
• thegeekbin 6y ago
  Matrix & Signal is the best I've found so far. The new Matrix (Element) client is good & people have a much easier time signing up and connecting. Overall pleased.
• apexalpha 6y ago
  Where is the "Don't switch" option? Because as much as I hate that Facebook bought them, they're part of what I would call "critical social infrastructure." Asking to leave WhatsApp is like cancelling your contract with your ISP and going offline just because you don't like the company.
  • chrisblackwell 6y ago
    I am forced to use the ISPs in my area due to only 1 or 2 alternatives. This is not the case with online communication.
    • arrrg 6y ago
      You have to use what people you know use. What use is switching to some messenger that no one you know uses? Obviously you can always fall back on SMS and e-mail, probably, but that is a path to social isolation in many cases. So, it’s not exactly the same as having two ISPs to pick from but to pretend that your choice is completely free and unconstrained is also a dangerous lie to tell yourself and others. To solve this … well, I don’t know. Probably regulation? Benevolent tech giants that for some reason decide to push open, federated messengers?
  • emsy 6y ago
    That’s not a good comparison. There are many alternatives to WhatsApp and it’s not a „critical“ infrastructure. In contrast, you sometimes can’t choose your ISP and internet is much more critical.
    • timvdalen 6y ago
      It can be in area's (such as in The Netherlands) where literally _everyone_ is on WhatsApp and it is the default form of personal online communication. Not using WhatsApp means not being able to communicate with a lot of people.
      • toper-centage 6y ago
• nwotnagrom 6y ago
  Definitely I think its between Telegram and Signal. With Signal, there is definitely that comfort level of knowing that your information/chats are secure, but I have found it to be slightly less user friendly in terms of setting up chats/group chats etc. Its also not as widely used compared to Telegram. With Telegram, I have been using it more recently and found it to be even effective in a work-setting for group chats, sharing files etc. Its basically a Slack and the fact that it is available on multiple platforms also has made it very appealing.
• Erazal 6y ago
  I've been using Signal for years now and although it still has its flaws (requirement for a phone number, PIN number debacle), it is IMHO the best alternative and I've moved my sginificant other, friends and families towards it. Combined with signal-cli (https://github.com/AsamK/signal-cli.git https://github.com/AsamK/signal-cli.git) you can easily set up your own files & messaging upload. For instance, I've created an automatic upload to a Google Photos album for my family group chat and they love it !
• bluGill 6y ago
  Forget about them all and send a regular SMS message. If the above doesn't work for essentially no cost then your phone provider needs to get it's head out of it's rear and stop raping you... There is no excuse for the way phone companies charge... If you need anonymous, then none of the above really work either.
  • rijndadel 6y ago
    Honestly, this is my choice as of now. I don't really use IM all that much, so it's not a big deal for me from privacy standpoint, but I'm not going to switch to yet another centralized service. I'd probably be alone there anyway, I doubt most of my contacts will care about this. I'll wait for a distributed E2E IM or death from old age, whichever comes first.
• S53Vflnr4n 6y ago
  Have to keep in mind that WhatsApp's customer base is not the western world, but mainly growing economies like India and African countries. WhatsApp recently rolled out Payments feature in India. In fact WhatsApp for Business is pretty good for SME to conduct business in India. Some of the shops that I went to India has paperless receipts and digital payments thru WhatsApp and UPI. They ask your WhatsApp number by default and sends you the receipt on WhatsApp. I find that very convenient as a customer. The horse has left the barn. Good luck asking people to switch to Signal or Telegram there. Switching to others will only help in making a political statement but wont help in mass adoption at least in those countries.
  • paride5745 6y ago
    WhatsApp is basically a given in Europe, they want to become like WeChat in China but for outside the Chinese firewall.
    • sgt 6y ago
      I know for example that in Norway you will encounter tons of people who have never even heard of WhatsApp. They just use iMessage as most people there have iPhones and I bet some people just think of it as an SMS (just happens to work much better).
    • toper-centage 6y ago
      That's not really true where I live nor where I'm from. So I will guess it's not a given everywhere in Europe.
• nono-no-no 6y ago
  But why is Signal not as polished and more importantly, can we do something about it? Would it help if we fund it? https://www.signal.org/donate/ https://www.signal.org/donate/
  • newscracker 6y ago
    The Signal Foundation was formed a couple of years ago with a $50 million chunk from the founder of WhatsApp. That should’ve helped a lot, though I don’t know how much.
• whywhywhywhy 6y ago
  I don't feel like I have a say in it anyway, what I use is dictated by the people I have to talk to. I'm not a willing participant in WhatsApp, it's what my boss and coworkers use.
  • toper-centage 6y ago
    But if you flip that around, that means you have a vote on what everyone else uses.
• hkt 6y ago
  Please add Delta Chat to this list. It is encrypted, uses email under the hood, and they have a large amount of funding as I understand it. The independence and cross-provider nature of this option means whatever email provider you use, they get very limited data about you and your contacts.
• anupamchugh 6y ago
  Elon Musk says Signal https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1347165127036977153 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1347165127036977153
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• bartligthart 6y ago
  Isn't this the perfect moment for Apple to announce their Android iMessage app?
  • toper-centage 6y ago
    Apple operates in a bubble that doesn't acknowledge other operating systems at all. So that will never happen.
• tarkin2 6y ago
  Signal because it has better security. And Telegram because more of my friends use it. At least with telegram, I can use it, turn off contact access in WhatsApp, and not give fb my address book.
• BatteryMountain 6y ago
  Telegram is not just another electron app, it has a great desktop client and uses minimal resources. It uses mostly c++ and qt last I checked, which makes for a great crossplatform experience too. It behaves like a desktop application, not a webapp (yes we can tell that there is a difference). So telegram gets +1 from me.
• jstummbillig 6y ago
  The Signal desktop clients are rather disappointing, but it's my first choice now.
• tarkin2 6y ago
  Question about WhatsApp and contact access: I’ve turned off contact access. I can’t see the names behind the numbers. Will fb still see the numbers of the new contacts I message?
  • halfmatthalfcat 6y ago
    If you enabled it previously, they have all your contacts. If you turned it off I assume they wont be able to see updates or new contacts you add.
    • tarkin2 6y ago
      Yes. But with the new contacts, when I message them, will fb see that number? (I’m guessing yes, since all the address book does it match names to numbers)
• AshamedCaptain 6y ago
  Where are all the Jabber clients?
• steveharman 6y ago
  Matrix
• dathinab 6y ago
  - Matrix is for now (like Discord) more of "slack like" service alternative (but has potential to become more than that). - Telegram might be the easiest to use where you likely find the most people but I disagree with a lot of things done by/around telegram. - Threema (now open source) is as far as I know the most privacy focused one and by far my favorite. I like the way they are doing many thinks and they have many small goodies (like you can give a small "thump up/down" to messages in 1-to-1 chats from the message received notification to indicate agreement/acceptance). Or the way they handle accounts (separate from phone number and license, you can give people your Threema id without giving them your phone, the "trust levels", etc.). Or that they have a clear&clean business model. There are also a bunch of aspects which are useful if used in a e.g. business context like account revoke-ability, in person QR code based key exchange, fixed chat history etc.
  • b6z 6y ago
    Most of my contacts (tech-oriented, Europe-based) are using Threema and I am most happy with it, especially because I do not have to share my phone number (or complete address book!). And the new video call capability is also working well. Unfortunately, most of the family is WhatsApp only. Since I will not use anything Facebook, they either have to use SMS or contact me via my wife.
  • lucideer 6y ago
    > Matrix is for now (like Discord) more of "slack like" service alternative (but has potential to become more than that). More specifically, I would say Element (the most popular Matrix client) is more of a "slack like" alternative, but most other mobile Matrix clients are much more WhatsApp-like.
• ninkendo 6y ago
  Is there any texting app that doesn't require access to your address book on iOS? I simply don't trust a single one of the messaging apps that they won't immediately upload my entire address book to their servers so they can have a more complete social graph. I've tried Telegram at one point but it was a huge pain to use if you didn't let it access your contacts (or maybe it didn't work at all... my memory's fuzzy on which messaging apps were which.) Whatsapp was similarly awful as well.
  • philshem 6y ago
    On iOS you can remove access to the contacts for individual apps. I did so for WhatsApp this morning. Privacy -> Contacts -> App Name https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/272067/ https://apple.stackexchange.com/a/272067/ (scroll down) -- The real problem is that other people have me as their contacts, and don't mind sharing with FB or whatever other companies.
    • ninkendo 6y ago
      Oh I'm aware I can revoke access to contacts (or in my case, never allow it in the first place.) I'm just saying the user experience is broken when you don't allow it. Telegram won't let you just add contacts locally within the app (ie. stored privately within the Telegram app.) WhatsApp I think had a similarly bad experience. You try to tap "Add contact" and it just tries to access your device contacts again. No thanks. I want my chat apps to have their own database of contacts, with basic CRUD for adding/removing them, which stays in that app. I don't need them getting a dump of the hundreds of contacts I have on my phone so that they can upload all of it to their servers and "suggest" friends (and likely, sell the data.) Hosting my contact information on their servers and using invite codes/etc would work fine too (especially if it's pseudonymous.) But no, you can't get a dump of my whole contact database just so I can keep track of who I talk to.
• sgt 6y ago
  95% of my chatting takes place on iMessage. Being available on WhatsApp as well makes very little difference for me and my privacy I think.
• harpratap 6y ago
  No option for RCS? It's a true successor to SMS and you can switch providers without losing anyone in your contacts. Although I am not really sure how easy it will be to switch clients and use something 3rd party
  • zinekeller 6y ago
    Mainly because of the fact that it is de facto controlled by Google (via Jibe).
    • kyrra 6y ago
      I'm a Googler opinions are my own. While Google is the main implementer of RCS servers and clients, a few larger carriers have done their own implementation of it, with no need for Google. Client side, I believe Samsung had their own implementation for it? And Apple could make iMessage RCS compatible, they just have chosen not to at this point. Edit: to add, RCS does support 1:1 encryption now, though I don't believe it's fully rolled out yet. https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21574451/android-rcs-encryption-message-end-to-end-beta https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/19/21574451/android-rcs-enc.... I'm really hoping this is the last step to get Apple on board with implementing it.
      • zakember 6y ago
        Totally missed opportunity for RCS IMHO. If RCS was available worldwide (I believe it is mostly still US only) along with encryption, it would have been the obvious choice for most people by now since it would allow users to use their favorite (RCS supported) app
      • zinekeller 6y ago
        > a few larger carriers have done their own implementation of it And that's why I think RCS shoot itself into the foot. I understand that Google does want to accelerate RCS implementation, and some carriers have actively chose to use Jibe. The main problem I think is that RCS is not differentiated from SMS, especially for those who have a carrier which didn't deployed it yet. In well-developed areas, it make full sense not to differentiate it. However, I don't think (and have some anecdotal evidence) that RCS was not designed to handle the (relatively) common case of an RCS user sending RCS to an "RCS" contact while that contact is offline. In certain areas, data connectivity is not cheap which means that the user explicitly controls mobile data connectivity and Google is amplifying the problem by actively prompting the user to use RCS even when the carrier does not support it. This leads into important messages not being received, which makes sense if RCS replaced another IP-based communication protocol but SMS is circuit-switched and does not rely on IP infrastructure, and more importantly SMS is much, much reliable relative to RCS (especially if it is not officially supported by the carrier).
• mrgintl 6y ago
  signal
• tkgally 6y ago
  What are people’s thoughts on Line? It’s very widely used here in Japan, especially among younger people. I have used it only a little myself and don’t have much of an opinion one way or another.
• rglullis 6y ago
  From the listed alternatives, only Matrix is the one that actually solves the issue of not having to trust our communications to any single monopolistic entity. You could add XMPP there as well, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is for us to start pushing for openness and start evangelizing/helping others to adopt anything that puts us back in control of our communication. This is the one thing to fix, and the one opportunity that we are getting now to do this right. - Element's client is not "nice": we can fix it. We can not fix closedness. - Not everyone is using it: we can fix it. We can not fix privacy abuse from Facebook. - It's work to run/manage a server: find a hosting provider (cough https://communick.com https://communick.com cough).
  • chrismatheson 6y ago
    will https://communick.com https://communick.com run / configure the various bridges? setting up my own home server for matrix with bridges to existing services (inc WhatsApp) has been on my list for a while. Seems like a nice way to try and migrate slowly away from other services, and if it works well I can show my friends in a sort of like "look this is how ive done it"
    • KitDuncan 6y ago
      Don't know about communick, but this https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy https://github.com/spantaleev/matrix-docker-ansible-deploy is super easy to setup and supports all the bridges I ever needed.
    • rglullis 6y ago
      The only concern I have with bridges is that I am not so sure how this affects my biggest promise - user privacy. But I am experimenting with the bridges on personal server and depending on how it goes I might have it as a separate product/offering - away from Communick.
  • holstvoogd 6y ago
    > It's work to run/manage a server: find a hosting provider I'm thinking it might be time to accept that 'we', hackers/nerds/technically inclined individuals/early adopters, start 'selling' and providing these services for our families and friends. Assuming you are involved with communick: I like the idea of, but I am not sold on moving my communications etc to some random llc. Especially with as little information as there is on the website, I'm having trouble trusting that. I would not send my friend and family there tbh.
• yedpodtrzitko 6y ago
  Line (https://line.me https://line.me ) is pretty popular in several Asian countries, so I started to use it during my time there. Its desktop app is really good, so now I'm sticking with it whenever possible.
  • px43 6y ago
    Is it encrypted? It's really annoying that modern chat apps without end to end encryption are even a thing. This is a solved problem now, several open source, drop in replacements exist to secure messaging. It'll be really sad if a bunch of people leave WhatsApp, which actually had good encryption, for services that don't even try to protect users.
    • nicolas_t 6y ago
      It's fully encrypted and they have a good whitepaper explaining exactly how their encryption works https://linecorp.com/en/security/encryption/2019h1 https://linecorp.com/en/security/encryption/2019h1 I really like line because their desktop app is extremely good, very fast and doesn't consume a lot of resources (it's not an electron app :))
• zoobab 6y ago
  Signal requires a mobile phone number. Nogo.
• nicbou 6y ago
  I'm already switching to Telegram after losing my phone. It's been a month and I haven't yet recovered my original number, losing many contacts and messages in the process.
• fileyfood500 6y ago
  Snapchat
• dec0dedab0de 6y ago
  sms/mms?
• EGreg 6y ago
  How did you make this poll?
• barrenko 6y ago
  No option for bypassing Whatsapp and going straight to the source, aka Facebook Messenger?
• maelito 6y ago
  I need Element to get threads for the slack use case, and Matrix to get an app as polished as Telegram, for the personnal messaging use case.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• aswinmohanme 6y ago
  Reminds me of the day the entire HN crowd switched to Gitlab when Microsoft bought Github.
• ramtatatam 6y ago
  I'm crazy - but for quite a long time I am thinking about setting up something like my own instance of jabber and give credentials to my loved ones... Maybe there are better alternatives than jabber, as long as I can host it myself.
• g-n 6y ago
  The problem with switching from Whatsapp is that it's not you alone who has to switch, it's everybody else. If you have a way to make all my family, friends and colleagues, let me know
• rcarmo 6y ago
  Signal. That would be the main one I'd consider moving to given the overlap it already has with WhatsApp in my neck of the woods.
• saos 6y ago
  I just switched to Telegram as majority of family already on it
• haolez 6y ago
  Didn't know about Threema. Looks incredible!
• srg0 6y ago
  The problem is that at least here in EU lots of social groups are on WhatsApp. So switching away from WhatsApp is not always feasible (unless you're willing to compromise your social life and some business interactions too). A more practical solution might be not to switch from WhatsApp entirely, but to limit the amount of data it can get from you. Some ideas: - trimming the contact list to the minimum; move most conctacts from the builtin phone address book (Google Contacts) to another store for contacts, which is not integrated with the system - getting a separate phone just for WhatsApp; different account, different number, different contact list - revoke most of the app permissions, use only the most essential features (basically text) - post new _content_ elsewhere - FB will probably try to track / intercept links in the app; setting Duck Duck Go as the default browser might help (purge browsing data often) I'm not sure how far iOS 14 privacy features will go. It's their time to shine. If they do prevent WhatsApp and Facebook apps from doing shady stuff, it might be a time to switch.
• m000 6y ago
  Is there any unbiased analysis of the implications of the WhatsApp change of policy? The most popular HN story on the subject [1] tells us little about that. As far as I can tell, the TL;DR of the change is that your WhatsApp identifier will be linked to your FB data, so that personalized advertisements can be displayed in WhatsApp. The only detail I find highly objectionable in the change, is FB collecting through WhatsApp "Other people’s phone numbers stored in address books." Why don't we focus on the objectionable parts of the change, rather than panicking that there was a change? Moreover, a less popular HN story [2] mentions that "The new privacy policy also doesn’t apply in Europe due to stronger privacy legislation there." (I can confirm that on my side: I'm living in Europe and I haven't seen the dreaded popup yet.) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25662215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25662215 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668367 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668367
  • levosmetalo 6y ago
    > (I can confirm that on my side: I'm living in Europe and I haven't seen the dreaded popup yet.) Also leaving in EU and just got the popup this morning, so it's definitely comming to Europe too.
  • saurik 6y ago
    It isn't even clear to me what is really changing or whether it matters... WhatsApp has had a feature they have been working on with Facebook for a while to allow Facebook business pages to maintain a presence on WhatsApp with a hosted client (something you might appreciate being useful for a lot of companies), and as far as I know this is just that. > The move, the spokeswoman said, is part of a previously disclosed move to allow businesses to store and manage WhatsApp chats using Facebook's infrastructure. Users won't have to use WhatsApp to interact with the businesses and have the option of blocking the businesses. She said there will be no change in how WhatsApp shares provide[d] data with Facebook for non-business chats and account data.
  • TeeWEE 6y ago
    I have seen the popup, but i'm in europe. Not sure why the popup has been shown to me: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/176412/whatsapp-verplicht-datadelen-met-facebook-maar-niet-voor-europese-gebruikers.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/176412/whatsapp-verplicht-datade...
• mslack616 6y ago
  I wish I could switch to Telegram, sadly most people I know use it as a "secondary" chat app for random/funny groups rather than their main app. What's even sadder is that I think most of us can agree that most people really don't care about privacy issues when it comes to apps, most "regular" people just want to use them for the sake of it. It's just people really focused on their privacy or "techies" the ones that have a concern about it.
  • jasdine817 6y ago
    Whats the point of moving away from WhatsApp for privacy reasons only to go to Telegram that also has privacy and security concerns?
• r00t4ccess 6y ago
  icq
• pmontra 6y ago
  Telegram, because it more widespread and because it runs in parallel on multiple devices. That's the major flaw of WhatsApp even if it's dictated by strong encryption etc. However everybody around me use WhatsApp, including the people using Telegram. I use Telegram with 3 or 4 friends, WhatsApp with everybody else even if I see a constant flow of contacts installing Telegram (the app sends a notification.) The only viable migration path is that enough people start using both until a tipping point when most of their conversations happen on Telegram. Same for any other platform. An abrupt switch is impossible unless WhatsApp start charging money or is banned by law.
• exabrial 6y ago
  What amazes me is how brazen Facebook has gotten with forced data sharing.
• webmobdev 6y ago
  Why hasn't anyone mentioned Jami - https://jami.net/ https://jami.net/ ?
• mfer 6y ago
  With text messages (even though insecure) they cross provider, cross platform, distributed, and interface based so clients and servers could be written. With the new options they are single provider, centralized, and locked in. Matrix is an exception in some categories. It's kinda sad how the technology landscape shifted.
• heikkilevanto 6y ago
  Missing option: Not using such stuff at all
• fumblebee 6y ago
  The obvious issue here is that we're intrinsically bound to the services that the people you talk with are themselves locked into. The pressure of your local crowd is surely a stronger determinant of which IM app(s) you use over the ones you like the best. So yeah, I don't like Facebook's malevolent dictatorship over WhatsApp, but there's zero chance I could - or even would bother to - convince all my friends and family to make the switch.
• jjice 6y ago
  Depends what you want. Are you all about personal privacy? I'd say Signal or Matrix on a self hosted server. Convenience and access to some other communities? Discord would be my pick.
• matheusmoreira 6y ago
  Signal and Matrix are the most trustworthy options. What's the point in using them if no one you know does? WhatsApp is valuable despite its proprietary nature because everyone uses it.
• destruct_self 6y ago
  in my surroundings, WA still dominant. Second is telegram. So I choose it
• j-james 6y ago
  Each of these have fairly different use cases. WhatsApp is bad. They are owned by a data collection company notorious for gross privacy violations. Both the client apps and the server are completely closed source, which means either could be spying on you without any way to know. They do claim to implement the secure Signal Protocol, but how do you verify end to end encryption without seeing source code, anyway? Telegram is a perfectly adequate choice. The user experience is similar to WhatsApp. It does practice some dark patterns - end to end encryption is only available in "secret chats" and calls, which means all other messages you send are readable by anyone with a warrant - and has had some high-profile exploits over the years, but the current iteration of its cryptographic protocol has been proved secure [1] (disclaimer: the paper claiming so came out within the last month, and I haven't found any discussion or review). All of the client apps are open source. The server is not, but if the clients are properly encrypting messages, that shouldn't be a security concern (To my knowledge. I am not a cryptographer). Discord is community-oriented. It's primarily based around "guilds" (commonly referred to as servers) that function similar to Slack workspaces. A robust role-based permission systems has made it pretty much the de facto standard for large communities wanting a real-time discussion platform (think subreddits, Discourse forums, etc). They have some top-of-the-line engineers who sometimes publish cool blog posts about their ridiculously performant clients [2]. Nonetheless, nothing is encrypted, they aren't open-source, and they have an unclear monetization model [3]. Signal is designed, intentionally or not, as a SMS replacement. It's build around one on one and small group messages. Their encryption is strong, independently verified, and enabled by default (Signal falls back to SMS for others who don't use it). Think iMessage, but open-source and secure. You'll see HN complain about its UI from time to time, but really, it's quite good. It's also extremely easy to convince friends and family to switch to. Matrix aims to be to real time chat what email is for asynchronous communication. Rather than a service, it's a standard, which means you'll see swaths of clients strewn about GitHub and other websites, the most feature complete of which is Element [4]. In practice (or for the time being), Matrix is just better IRC. VoIP and video calls are somewhat hodge-poged into the spec, but do work well, and encryption by default has been rolling out over the past year. Direct messaging, group chats, and communities are also all supported, although the latter suffers from the IRC-like limitation of only one "channel" per server. I know nothing about Threema or Viber, sorry. [1]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.03141 https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.03141 [2]: https://blog.discord.com/why-discord-is-switching-from-go-to-rust-a190bbca2b1f https://blog.discord.com/why-discord-is-switching-from-go-to... [3]: https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-d... [4]: https://element.io/ https://element.io/
• woodpanel 6y ago
  None of the above. Because WhatsApp's moat/lock-in-effect is that ~2 bln people use it whilst the second largest listed here, Telegram, has around ~400M. By this comparison, on average, by removing WA and limiting one's social circle to Telegram, chances are, that you cut ties with 4/5 of your contacts.
• edhelas 6y ago
  XMPP
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• sebst 6y ago
  [slightly off-topic] WhatsApp has been a more or less indie creation helped to cut cost of text messages to zero. Then it was acquired by FB and is now part of big tech. We all know what this means. With signal as a notable exception, I doubt that there could ever be a different outcome for any commercial product. Why is it, that we do not see more competition from non-profits? The tech world has changed so much, that the ideas of the open source/free software movement are not as applicable as they were when Stallman founded GNU. However, with Wikipedia we see a worldwide Top10 site being a non-profit. So, where are all the Google/Twitter/Facebook competitors funded by contributions of its users? Given how hard and expensive it is to really compete in that space, is the goal unrealistic? Or is it that there are some (hidden) incentives in the game which contradicts that goal? (Other than monetary incentives for the founders)
• fatnoah 6y ago
  I use different apps with different circles of friends, so I already use WhatsApp, FB Messenger, GChat, and SMS. I have no plans to change anything.
• quijoteuniv 6y ago
  A part of my communications will be switched to signal. Some will still be in whatsapp for now
• InvOfSmallC 6y ago
  I think Telegram is the superior IM currently being developed but if you want to switch due to privacy reasons than you can just stay on whatsapp, it will not really improve anything.
• XCSme 6y ago
  Offtopic: Since when does HN have polls?
  • citrusui 6y ago
    Since 2008 (possibly earlier): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=129951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=129951
    • XCSme 6y ago
      Wow, thanks for the info, I've been following HN daily for about 6 years and this is the first time I see a poll.
• TomJansen 6y ago
  Why not Tox? That is the only one I know which is really decentralized
  • aembleton 6y ago
    It doesn't support ios. Some of my friends are on that platform. I also installed the android client and it wanted permission for the camera, files and I think the microphone. I didn't grant it any of them and it then refused to work. So it got uninstalled. A messaging app has to be able to work without any permission except for network access and maybe the contact book.
• drewg123 6y ago
  What about snapchat? It seems to have much better call quality than WhatsApp..
• franky47 6y ago
  I wish Keybase had a good video/audio story. Considering their acquisition by Zoom, I doubt it will ever happen.
• 0xmohit 6y ago
  I need the "Never used WhatsApp; can't switch" option.
• MichaelRazum 6y ago
  Does it really matter. Lets say signal becomes as big as WhatsApp. Facebook buys it and changes the rules. So there is no way out ; )
• skrap 6y ago
  I am going to try to move my family to Matrix (via Element.io). I really hate the walled gardens. The fact that people still use email addresses from decades ago is pretty good proof of the powers of federation. Wish me luck :)
• zoobab 6y ago
  Why Jeremie Zimmermann stopped using Signal: required mobile number, not really free software, centralised servers, etc... https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3655&v=Xmy3_QIGOe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3655&v=Xmy3_QIGOe4
• peteretep 6y ago
  LINE has somewhere like 700m users
• nelaboras 6y ago
  The killer feature missing from all those is group video chat. This is what Messenger offers and why I will never be able to move my family away from it unless there is an equally smooth alternative.
  • SamWhited 6y ago
    Conversations (on Android) and Gajim (on the desktop) does video chat works quite well in my experience. They have a paid service you can use with it, or it's compatible with any Jabber/XMPP compatible messaging service.
• greatgib 6y ago
  In France, it is well known that the president and a lot of members of the leading political party are personally using Telegram. I like a lot Telegram, even if I'm a little bit sad that they don't do more to push end to end encryption. One can have a look at cryptpad to see that cloud storage and e2e is possible. But still, so far, for so long, there never was any proof of any deceptive behavior of the telegram team. Not a single private message leaked to a gov, company or anyone. So I kind of trust them for the moment.
• Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  where is one true federated chat service, XMPP?
• Seb-C 6y ago
  Here in Japan literally everyone uses LINE and it is far better than WhatsApp. Way more features, it's independent and the business model is sane and clear. I just switched my family to it, because that was the last reason for me to use WhatsApp. I'm sad not to se it as an option.
  • kuriho 6y ago
    LINE seems to be the predominate messenger in all of Asia. I find it highly interesting to see even the Japanese rely on this Korean Plattform. Do they not fear a service blockage based on their countries political relationship?
    • nicolas_t 6y ago
      It was created in Japan though by employees of Naver's Tokyo branch.
• jops 6y ago
  If Signal had a 'Create group from WhatsApp' option then most of my groups would have switched over in an instant.
• segmondy 6y ago
  It's not about the app, it's about the network. I can easily switch an app. The 100+ people I would reach don't have any of those apps, a few have Signal. If I tried to get them to switch, they will state exactly the reason I just did. The network is strong.
  • jmnicolas 6y ago
    You can have have more than one chat apps. People that cared to chat with me installed Signal on their phones but still use whatsapp for their other contacts.
• JosefAssad 6y ago
  Missing option: none. Whatsapp's value to me was negligible (that isn't to say I wasn't using it quite a lot; it's value was just low). So I'm removing it and not replacing it.
  • zakember 6y ago
    Out of curiosity, what do you use to communicate with friends / distant family members when you have to? Most of my WhatsApp use has been to stay in touch with friends / families. Planning trips is almost impossible without WhatsApp for me and my groups.
• hestefisk 6y ago
  In SG, some government services are big users of WhatsApp. For instance, I was recently placed in 14 days quarantine (stay home notice) after arriving from overseas. All contact with the department of immigration / border protection was via WhatsApp during those two weeks. They would also call us to do control samples at random hours to check that we are in the hotel room. It’s very convenient of the government to do this, but I do find it a bit dubious at time to mix provision of essential services with FBs marketing tracking. The same with government websites that use Google Analytics, I’m not always sure they should be mixed without thinking properly through the privacy considerations first.
• baxtr 6y ago
  What about iMessage though?
• wintorez 6y ago
  Telegram, because you can delete your own messages from someone else’s phone. No other app allows this to my knowledge.
• suyash 6y ago
  Any app that makes it easy to migrate chat and contacts, easy UI for non tech people to use, open source will get my vote
• concombre 6y ago
  SMS
• fareesh 6y ago
  Most of my non-technical friends already surrender much of their life to Facebook through Instagram. In fact Instagram even has messaging now.
• GGMethos 6y ago
  A lot of Russian people use Telegram, but a lot of Russian people are also using Whatsapp. Me personally, I use Skype/Whatsapp strictly for work and Discord for everything else. I have severe gripes with Whatsapp including a sub-standard desktop client. Signal is a pretty good replacement for Whatsapp I would say. We have recently been approved at work to start using a corporate version of Zoom but it is seldom used yet. We also heavily use Symphony at this point for group conversations that don't involve voice calling. I think LINE and Telegram are pretty ok. IRC is still always gonna be my favorite but obviously its lacking most of the features of a modern chat client such as Discord such as video/audio calls and screen-sharing.
• AsyncAwait 6y ago
  I feel like non encrypted messengers like Telegram/Discord/Zoom shouldn't even be in the running here as alternatives.
• max_ 6y ago
  I would like to switch to any of these, but my family members don't use any of these.
• yunier-rojas 6y ago
  https://wire.com/ https://wire.com/
• k_bx 6y ago
  What is meant by "switching" here? Forcing others to install/use the client for communication with you? I have all of them installed, different people use different ones, I don't care really.
• olah_1 6y ago
  I like Session[1]. It's snappy, simple, and built on an onion network like Tor. Their private group chats can handle something like 20 people but I believe that this will expand in the near future. Plus they expressed interest in using Arweave[2] as a decentralized storage option, which seems cool to me. I am also interested in Berty[3] and Iris[4], but those aren't really "ready" yet, despite being cool tech. [1]: https://getsession.org/ https://getsession.org/ [2]: https://www.arweave.org/ https://www.arweave.org/ [3]: https://berty.tech/ https://berty.tech/ [4]: https://github.com/irislib/iris-messenger https://github.com/irislib/iris-messenger
  • aembleton 6y ago
    Interesting. I just installed it and found it simple to set up. I like that it doesn't need to access my contacts but I think that might hinder its adoption
• shafyy 6y ago
  Maybe a dumb question, but: If we all switch to Signal, then again one entity will have the power, right? As far as I understand it their protocol is not open in the sense that we can build custom clients and servers still interact with others on other servers (Like Matrix, or Email, or Mastodon)?
• pmlnr 6y ago
  Could you please add XMPP to the list? Just in case. I run a Prosody server, and it's surprisingly pleasant with Conversations on Android.
• shubhbadonia 6y ago
  Signal is good, but it is slow. Telegram is the best!
• xpil 6y ago
  I started switching away from Whatsapp about 18 months ago. I decided to go for Telegram (although I use Signal as well). So far, I managed to convert... 17 people. Out of approximately 1200. It is a lost case. WhatsApp is practically everywhere. Damn.
  • aembleton 6y ago
    Good on you for trying
• a9i 6y ago
  Jami
• balla12121 6y ago
  lyric messenger https://apps.apple.com/us/app/lyric-mesenger/id1377855473 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/lyric-mesenger/id1377855473
• fersarr 6y ago
  Couldn't we have an open-messaging standard so that different apps can send messages to each other? Similar to open banking in the UK (law). Of course, the big players won't want that, but the smaller ones could start it.
  • fersarr 6y ago
    ah, is that matrix? https://matrix.org/ https://matrix.org/
  • mattowen_uk 6y ago
    We had that, it was called IRC. Then it was XMPP. For this cycle of tech walled gardens are de rigueur. Maybe next decade it'll all revert to interoperability again. I'm not holding my breath though.
• kotxig 6y ago
  Moved to signal today, plenty of people in my contacts are following suit (was way easier than I thought). I've never had a facebook account, had WhatsApp before facebook bought them. I will also have to jailbreak or dump my oculus quest if they force me to sign up.
• squarehorse 6y ago
  What are you sharing that Facebook hasn't already mined?
• Copenjin 6y ago
  Wire?
• tga 6y ago
  Skype is also a familiar option for many non-technical folks. It has syncing, a web client and optional one-to-one encrypted chats. It also uses Microsoft accounts, which many already have because of Windows integration.
• juancampa 6y ago
  > Zom Is this a typo for Zoom?
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    No. Search: https://duckduckgo.com/?q="zom"+messaging https://duckduckgo.com/?q="zom"+messaging Result: https://zom.im/zomenglish.html https://zom.im/zomenglish.html
• Markoff 6y ago
  Google Messages have E2E encryption and support SMS, if other party doesn't have Chat feature, only comparable app is Signal, I used it for years until I gave up after nagging PIN popup, during this period I experienced extensive problems with sending/receiving problems if you often switch between mobile network and WiFi Signal is very slow to recognize this and choose the best network, while Whatsapp does this almost instantly Signal has also pretty horrible management, I remember one day outage for many house because admins in US just went sleep, so Signal is all nice if you dont care about reliability and can get through bad UX, for instance very well hidden option for force sending SMS to Signal contact through long tap Send button, there is now ay to find this during using the app
• jokethrowaway 6y ago
  What we really need is working and user friendly bridges for all of these. I think something similar could be achieved client side only by reverse engineering each app's api and maintaining compatibility at every update. Matrix is close but it's not very user friendly (and I think it requires you to host your own server).
• edwardwatson 6y ago
  I tried to replace WhatsApp with Signal, by telling all my frequent WhatsApp contacts I'm moving to signal and they should download it if they want to talk to me. About 10% of contacts moved to Signal. I lost touch with the rest and Signal was in many ways worse than WhatsApp for everyday communication. I ended up using WhatsApp again. For me, it's too popular to leave.
• will_gottschalk 6y ago
  Snapchat
• will_gottschalk 6y ago
  Don’t forget Snapchat. The app is closer to WhatsApp than Instagram
• dietsprite 6y ago
  From a security perspective, Signal seems like the winner. I just wish they'd invest in better design/UX across the board especially their desktop app. Their app looks and feels like a boilerplate Electron app.
• leshow 6y ago
  If you care about encryption telegram is not a good option, it shouldn't be presented as an alternative IMO, neither should discord. Signal is the only real alternative if you care about your chats being encrypted-- I heard matrix is e2e encrypted also so maybe that's another choice...
• pmlnr 6y ago
  I've never heard of Threema and Zom before, so I checked them. Zom is... well, just another messenger. Threema on the other hand looks very interesting, but it's a paid app - I don't know if any app will be able to pull what WhatsApp had with it's $1 pricing. Other, than this, Threema looks promising.
• salyvan 6y ago
  Although I use WhatsApp as my main messaging app, as it is the common practice in my country, I always thought Telegram was way better - it was honestly always 20 steps ahead of WhatsApp in regard to features, and it still is. I hope everyone will switch to it, although unfortunately I believe people will just stay with WhatsApp...
• molszanski 6y ago
  Telegram seems to have the best client applications for all platforms. Very fast, very light, low memory footprint. Personally, this is my favorite of all the messaging apps / clients I've used
• TinkersW 6y ago
  I use signal and ~like it, but I do wish it didn't require a phone #, and tie everything to that #, when I switched phones I had to make a new signal account & make new group chat rooms. Also signal needs group video chats.. I've never used WhatsApp so I don't know what is so special that so many people seem to use it.
• prytzie 6y ago
  More and more companies are integrating with Whatsapp and building on the assumption that the majority has or will install it. And as they continue layering on the convenience of being a payments platform alongside Libra/Diem, it becomes another WeChat, and eventually you may require it to do everyday purchases, company interactions, bookings, etc. This is especially true in emerging/unbanked regions. Signal/Telegram/etc are focused on being messengers, while Whatsapp is part of a broader, increasingly indispensable platform and network, with social hooks. I worry the choice will be made for us as to whether we install it or not, since only a minority care about privacy.
• bocajuniors 6y ago
  Why not just use a standard SIP-account? You can use it with the softphone of your choice. Much like email. For instance Ekiga on desktop or Zoiper on mobile. And a SIP-account from diamondcard.us
• dalu 6y ago
  I use Telegram because in the Linux group on Google+ it was advertised as the better messenging alternative, and a while ago Russia wanted access to their data and when they refused some IPs were blocked by the Russian government. Idk if that was just a market trick or if it was real. In Telegram you don't get censored. But it lacks the essential blocking people feature.
• twobitshifter 6y ago
  In some alternate future, WhatsApp’s founders never sold to Facebook and the world is enjoying the use of a popular secure encrypted messaging platform.
• blunte 6y ago
  I would say Signal, for now. Since last year when the European Commission urged its staff to switch from WhatsApp to Signal, I've noticed a lot more of my contacts becoming available on Signal. I've been using Signal for some time; I preferred Wire, but gradually it became clear that Wire was only interested in corporate clients. One bonus compared to Signal is that you don't need to tie it to a phone number.
• teekert 6y ago
  I love Matrix/Element, but for the people around me? Signal.
• YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  I would also like an option for "do not switch" and "none". I'd vote "none".
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    That would tell me that you would switch to use none, or that you currently don't use anything, or that you wouldn't switch from your current system, but it doesn't give me any advice to pass on to my friends, who do use WhatsApp, want not to use WhatsApp, and need to use something. So providing those options wouldn't help me, although it's otherwise interesting to note that you'd vote "none".
    • YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
      I think you can use those options as advice to your friends. The advice would be to "not switch" or "use nothing". Both of those are valid advice and "none" is the advice I'm giving friends and relatives from now on.
      • ColinWright 6y ago
        Neither "Not Switching" nor "Use None" are viable options, which is why they aren't included. I appreciate that they are the advice you would give, but it would be unhelpful for them. They need something, and it needs not to be WhatsApp. That's why I didn't include those as options in the poll. But I appreciate (and am sympathetic towards) your stance.
• sarvasana 6y ago
  XMPP + OMEMO
• hda111 6y ago
  Stopped using WhatsApp 2 years ago. I can contact most people in telegram but I’d like to uninstall soon. They make it hard, you need 1 month inactivity. This means 1 month of potentially lost messages you will never see.
• eitland 6y ago
  Some time ago I bookmarked this comment by tptacek: > Everyone I talk to uses Signal; even my siblings, who are not technologists and who I do not talk to about this stuff, use Signal (sometimes to my annoyance, since iMessage works just fine when we're figuring out what each of us is bringing to dinner). But for the purposes of this post, almost literally any secure messenger is better than email. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22371316 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22371316 Hopefully the fact that even tptacek can admit that convenience actually plays a role when deciding what messaging platform to use for everyday stuff can help certain people here lower their shoulders somewhat ;-)
• kawfey 6y ago
  Whatsapp still hasn't made it to my US-based circles whatsoever, from ATL, Chicago, NY, STL, to Seattle. I downloaded it when I went on a Europe trip in 2016, and haven't used it since. I have a single group chat on Telegram full of mostly Europeans. I predominately use iMessage/SMS, FB messenger, and Discord with my local friend groups.
• jordache 6y ago
  Which messaging platform has a user friendly data backup and data download option? Say if I get a new phone, or need to factory reset the phone?
• hairofadog 6y ago
  Let's say I absolutely must use WhatsApp to communicate with someone for a work situation. What's the best way that doesn't involve allowing Facebook to plunder all my data? Is my only option to get a burner phone? They seem to require a SIM card from what I can tell.
• aljgz 6y ago
  From your list I've extensively used Telegram and Whatsapp. I love the former and hate the latter. I'm going to tell you why. I used telegram seriously, to connect to my team members, connect to friends in groups and message friends privately, before our government blocked it and people migrated to whatsapp. Usability: 1-Whatsapp is only available on one phone (I know it's because of e2e encryption, but we'll get to that later) and only android/ios. Anything else needs to use web and connect to the main device, which limits the experience, if you use it heavily. 2-Whatsapp does not have edit, the web version cannot set ctrl-enter to send, any mistaken enter will send an incomplete message that cannot be edited. 3-You lose all your chats when you change your phone. Backup is still a solution, but not if you want to migrate from iphone to android (something I did) and do not trust an app that has 100 install to migrate your data. 4-You cannot use multiple phone numbers by one whatsapp on one phone. 5-If you add a person to a group, they cannot see past messages. (I know, another side-effect of e2e) 6-It has many minor bugs with bluetooth headsets. If you press the answer, it just disconnects from the headset, you should answer on phone screen. 7-Lacks many useful features for organization, like chat folders (I know, this is also recent in Telegram) On the other hand, telegram is heavily customizable, has clients for all major platforms, can connect to many accounts at once, your data is not tied to your device. About E2e encryption: I don't mind that telegram does not have e2e. My private messages are not worth the effort for a large organization or government. As a citizen of a country where the government actively and strongly suppresses freedom of speech, e2e in groups is not useful. Any breached device or one informer in any group is enough for all messages to be breached. This is only needed in case the government does not have access to the (apparently infinite) list of security problems by whatsapp, which apparently they do (why they block Telegram and not whatsapp?) In usability, I can go on and on with increasingly detailed differences between whatsapp and Telegram and everywhere Telegram wins hands down, except that by default, chats do not have e2e encryption and groups cannot have e2e at all.
• 35803288 6y ago
  Please, add Wire
• deepstack 6y ago
  Why is wire not mentioned here?
• timwis 6y ago
  Feels completely impossible to stop using WhatsApp unless the rest of the UK switches too. Or am I missing something?
• t0astbread 6y ago
  I would recommend you start with whatever looks best to you, then keep trying solutions with friends who are up for it until you've found something that works. This question is also really dependent on your own and your friends' threat models so general advice is only marginally useful here. Personally I use Telegram because there's a distribution of it on F-Droid. If you do you should consider telling your friends to only use secret chats since only those are encrypted end-to-end. Signal has some nice features like not storing your in-app contacts on their servers and the "sealed sender" feature which largely hides who is talking to whom in a conversation. As for the others I can't really comment on them. Maybe another option to consider is Briar[1] which works entirely peer-to-peer over Tor, Bluetooth or the LAN and defers sending until both devices are online at the same time (which might work for phones). [1] https://briarproject.org/ https://briarproject.org/
• ojhughes 6y ago
  iMessage and only be friends with iPhone users /s
• Nelkins 6y ago
  Is there an easy way to export ALL data (voice notes, photos, video, and text) from WhatsApp? Last time I tried to do it there was a 10K message limit (which I have significantly exceeded). And I saw some tool to try and get access to the Google Drive backup[0], but I couldn't get it working properly. [0] Something like this https://github.com/fingersonfire/Whatsapp-Xtract https://github.com/fingersonfire/Whatsapp-Xtract , although I can't recall if it was that exact one.
• adam0c 6y ago
  I'll also jump on the band wagon that deleting it is a bit of a bad idea as much as i hate facebook too, but if you actually read the full terms and privacy you can opt out of moat things and they only really effect you if you have other services in the "facebook company" group much like how google tracks you across everything with their ad ID it's the same with facebook. read the terms and privacy thoroughly and you'll see it's not all that bad and this is coming from a strong hater of facebook
  • rglullis 6y ago
    It doesn't matter. Remember, before acquisition their main revenue plan was to charge $1/year/user. WhatsApp biggest selling point was that it promised it would not have ads and it would be focused on privacy. End-to-end encryption came despite Facebook. Its founder left when it was clear that Facebook planned to leverage WhatsApp userbase into other Facebook properties despite promises of the contrary. Now they are actually executing on it. The only action that can have any effect on Facebook is if they start losing users over this.
• ffpip 6y ago
  Singal is always gonna win on HN. Firefox, Signal, etc are HN favorites. Surprising to see Matrix 3rd despite being added after half an hour. Will check it out.
• alessivs 6y ago
  Add DeltaChat - https://delta.chat https://delta.chat
• aristofun 6y ago
  Telegram obviously. Best software product of the past decade.
• x775 6y ago
  Surprised to see the relatively low number of votes for Threema, why is this?
• bonaldi 6y ago
  It's a shame that iMessage isn't an option (for users, not in the poll!). It's nothing like a perfect option, but if anything is going to beat WhatsApp for mindshare it's something from Apple which already has an enormous non-tech userbase. I know the reflex answer is "they won't do it because iPhone exclusivity sells iPhones" but suspect that's increasingly only true in the US. People here are describing how phones there are increasingly WhatsApp-running platforms, and Apple would be wise to prevent that while it can. Might also offer them an upsell route for their other cross-platform services.
• Razengan 6y ago
  TIL HN has polls
• ibraheemdev 6y ago
  Elon Musk votes for Signal: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1347165127036977153 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1347165127036977153
• fakedang 6y ago
  What about Line, Kakao and imo?
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    It would be helpful if, instead of just throwing out names, you also provided links. "Line" and "imo" are rather difficult to search for, and since you already know (of) them I'd assume you can provide links. It would also be helpful if you could provide brief reasons as to why one would choose one of those as opposed to, say, Signal or blabber/XMPP, for example. Thanks.
• djsumdog 6y ago
  Why close? Just setup Matrix with bridges. I have mine bridges to Messenger, Hangouts, Telegram and I'm working on getting my Twilio bridge so it can do SMS too: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/matrix-one-chat-protocol-to-rule-them-all/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/matrix-one-chat-protocol-to-r...
• teorema 6y ago
  I always feel compelled to mention Briar because it doesn't get enough attention. https://briarproject.org/ https://briarproject.org/ Having said that, I think its ideal use cases at the current time are probably less of a general messaging solution with friends, and more for specific scenarios where off-internet and security is maybe most salient.
• ynotcombi 6y ago
  https://olvid.io/en/ https://olvid.io/en/
• ynotcombi 6y ago
  What about olvid? Quite recent, references are strong: https://olvid.io/team/en/ https://olvid.io/team/en/
• Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  Email would have been a good choice too, my personal experience of ditching Chat in favor of non-real-time communication has resulted in more thoughtful communication, besides eliminates the need for converting your contacts from their favorite chat app. End-to-End encryption is something which cannot be enforced for all communications(contacts) with email.
• prudhvis 6y ago
  I feel like Matrix P2P would be a great idea for decentralized communication mechanism.
• Razengan 6y ago
  Reject IM, return to IRC.
• Bantros 6y ago
  Not heard of half of these but looks like Signal is by far the best alternative
• rukshn 6y ago
  As much as I would like to use signal no one I know are using it. I just installed signal on my wife's phone and she doesn't have anyone using signal as well. How can we build the network effect when the network effect is so strong for WhatsApp!
• MrXOR 6y ago
  Signal is my choice for its security, but Telegram has an advantage: it is more user friendly.
• dartharva 6y ago
  Here in India everyone uses WhatsApp, from grandmas and children to teachers, office workers and even Police officers. It serves versatile purposes, of hosting both a chat platform and a social network for groups and has been so much ingrained in India's societies that "texting" literally means sending a WhatsApp message here. In state elections, WhatsApp is the main platform the ruling party (BJP) focused most of its campaigns on. With such a setup it is extremely difficult to move to another platform. The next popular platform is Telegram, but it is used mainly to share and access pirated movies and apps from shady channels than for everyday communication.
• jimkleiber 6y ago
  I wish one of them had something like the WhatsApp statuses. It's one of the main conversation starters for me and reasons why I stay on WhatsApp. If Signal were to get statuses, I'd probably switch immediately.
• zaltekk 6y ago
  > Verification codes are currently delayed across several providers because so many new people are trying to join Signal right now (we can barely register our excitement). We are working with carriers to resolve this as quickly as possible. Hang in there. https://twitter.com/signalapp/status/1347240006444675072 https://twitter.com/signalapp/status/1347240006444675072
• matthewfelgate 6y ago
  How can I switch if my friends use WhatsApp?
• adverbly 6y ago
  I'm curious to get people's take on how they are approaching this migration. One thing that I am considering is keeping WhatsApp around without leaving any of my groups, but making very strong efforts to only send new messages through my new service.
• esotericsean 6y ago
  Myself and just about everyone I know uses iMessage. Why is there still such a need for a third party messaging app?
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    I don't know anyone who uses iMessage. Of course, I don't think I (personally and directly) know anyone who uses an iPhone ...
  • benhurmarcel 6y ago
    It's not available on Android, which has an 85% worldwide market share.
• mike_k 6y ago
  Telegram is really popular in some countries and is a more convenient for me as well because of that. Just one thing to keep in mind: it is run by VK.com's original "creator" and that social network reportedly had (and still has) very close relationships with Russian agencies. It is surprising how easily people forget about such things as soon as people turn into "opposition" and leave the country and/or their main business.
• goutsuffer 6y ago
  Wechat
• not2b 6y ago
  The answer is "none of the above": instead, antitrust regulators in the US (after Jan. 20) and the EU force the breakup of Facebook, restoring WhatsApp's status as an independent company focused on privacy. The WhatsApp users get to keep their preferred platform and Facebook doesn't get the data.
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    Yes. Good. So until that happens, what messaging app would you recommend switching to?
    • not2b 6y ago
      I'd like to get people to use Signal, but it has been a losing effort. I either need to use WhatsApp or not communicate with friends and family. That's the problem with network effects.
  • lrem 6y ago
    And where does that independent company focused on privacy get its money from?
    • not2b 6y ago
      https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/040915/how-whatsapp-makes-money.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/04091...
      • lrem 6y ago
        Nice, thanks!
• jFriedensreich 6y ago
  The problem with signal is also no buttons, carousels or bots etc. I mean if we switch anyways, it would be nice to have something that can compete with wechat, nut just be a better sms application.
• swanswan 6y ago
  Olvid for me https://olvid.io https://olvid.io
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• mikece 6y ago
  Where is Wire? Open source, free personal accounts available, can deploy on-prem (or in your own cloud), and can be used in a web browser rather than needing an installed client like Signal. Best of all: you don't need a phone number to set up an account! Check it out for yourself; set up a free personal account at this link: https://app.wire.com/auth/#createaccount https://app.wire.com/auth/#createaccount
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• system2 6y ago
  To be honest, this is a very pointless poll. I barely heard about Signal and never even used it. Discord is the thing kids use for gaming. Whatsapp became a standard non-carrier app to communicate globally. People do not even know any of these apps. Removing whatsapp from the phone means disconnecting from many remote friends and family members.
• CodeGlitch 6y ago
  Why isn't Skype suggested more often? I've been using it instead of Zoom very successfully. I've moved a lot of my family over to it for our pandemic get togethers. It works very well as a generic messaging platform. Microsoft in my opinion is a far more respectable company compared to Facebook.
  • Triv888 6y ago
    I switched away from Skype when Microsoft bought it because there was something fishy (They converted it from P2P, which worked quite well, to MS-owned servers). I wish someone would leak the pre-MS source code.
    • CodeGlitch 6y ago
      I would say encrypted P2P is not a requirement for 99% of users. If you require such a level of security then you really shouldn't be using someone else's infrastructure. I include signal and telegram in this.
• pks016 6y ago
  My friends and I already shifted to Signal. Not sure it will a permanent thing.
• pengo 6y ago
  I use Slack, Telegram, Trello and email. Essentially I need channels that run smoothly on all my devices (Linux, MacOS, SailfishOS). I'm watching Slack closely since the sale to Salesforce, and will switch those groups to Telegram or Signal if I see cause for concern.
• cJ0th 6y ago
  I like conversations. The app is straight forward and it uses xmpp with omemo encryption. Therefore, there is no "lock in" (https://conversations.im/ https://conversations.im/). I guess Signal would be the best bet as an alternative because of where it is right now in terms of market share.
• mipsi 6y ago
  Some analogue variants for different communication scenarios I heard of, but can't comply since i am nerd: - in your neighborhood, same street, also from hill to hill: SHOUTING or YELLING (if just for signalling things, FIRE works also) - bit farther away: SCREAM LOUDER (just signals, more noise, like twitter) - same city: write on PAPER, drive bicycle and insert into mailbox (afterwards drive home) - other city/country: CALL BY PHONE (moment of silence when waiting for answer is tense) - all above but addressing many people: the above ONE AFTER THE OTHER
• BasicObject 6y ago
  XMPP.
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    I've had that response several times, but XMPP is not a messaging app. It's like asking for an email client and being told "Use the internet", or "Use TCP". Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the response, but it's not answering the question I'm asking. What app running on top of XMPP would you suggest?
    • MattJ100 6y ago
      Quicksy is a decent jump from WhatsApp to XMPP for Android users (based on Conversations, but with contact discovery). For iOS there's Siskin or Monal. XMPP has a wide and diverse ecosystem. I am working on curating a suite of XMPP software (a server you can self-host, and an app for each major platform) to produce a single tightly integrated "XMPP package": https://snikket.org/ https://snikket.org/ (and https://snikket.org/about/goals/ https://snikket.org/about/goals/ for an idea of current progress).
• julienb_sea 6y ago
  I will not be taking action based on this. I use Facebook and Instagram regularly as do literally everyone I interact with. I have zero concern about integration between Facebook and Whatsapp.
• Siira 6y ago
  Telegram is to messengers what Emacs is to text editors. - Unlimited storage that doesn't expire - Complete API access. There are many alternative Telegram clients because of this, and the official clients are opensource, too. - Native clients for all the major platforms (macOS even has two official native clients), including a web client. All clients work without needing to link up with a phone. There are unofficial clients for the terminal and Emacs, as well. - Excellent bot API that gives you the ability to easily write your own bots, and has enabled a rich ecosystem of bots. E.g., https://t.me/InLaTeXbot https://t.me/InLaTeXbot, https://t.me/MusicsHunterbot https://t.me/MusicsHunterbot, https://t.me/GmailBot https://t.me/GmailBot, https://t.me/libsan_bot https://t.me/libsan_bot, https://t.me/scihubot https://t.me/scihubot, https://t.me/to_kindle_bot https://t.me/to_kindle_bot, https://t.me/music https://t.me/music, https://t.me/youtube https://t.me/youtube, https://t.me/imdb https://t.me/imdb, https://t.me/minroobot https://t.me/minroobot, ... . Check out https://github.com/SpEcHiDe/UniBorg https://github.com/SpEcHiDe/UniBorg for a self-hostable bot that is just superb. - Good support (best I've seen) for sending text, images, audio, links, etc. - The above combined with support for one-to-many "channels" has enabled a very rich ecosystem of personal microblogs (ala Tumblr) alongside official news channels. (As this needs networks effects, the ecosystem might not be strong in English. I only follow https://t.me/techmemenews https://t.me/techmemenews and https://t.me/tldrnewsletter https://t.me/tldrnewsletter in English, which are bridges to some non-Telegram newsletters I have built myself.) There are also a lot of channels that "liberate" "information", such as https://t.me/HeadSpaceChannel https://t.me/HeadSpaceChannel . - Those channels are also great for private note-taking. - Ability to selectively export data to HTML (good for human viewing) or JSON. There once was an unofficial terminal app that exported to sqlite, but the maintainer gave up after this feature was added to the official clients. Nonetheless, exporting data via the API is still an option. - Multiaccount support - An open and free-as-in-beer ecosystem for (potentially animated) stickers, which has resulted in some really creative stickers, and where one can find stickers for most niche interests. - Multi-device usage (Signal only works on a single phone) - Seamless device switching, courtesy of not having E2E on by default. One also doesn't lose history. - A lot of small quality-of-life features, such as: Video profile avatars; Granular settings for notifications, storage, privacy, ...; Ability to group chats into folders; Ability to group files (including photos and videos) into a single post; Animated emojis; Ability to pin chats to the top; "Instant view" that lets you read a cleaned version of articles in Telegram itself; Rich link previews; Scheduled message posts; ... - E2E chats are available when you want them, and you can even set a self-destruct on your posts. - You can fully use Telegram without revealing your phone number to anyone. - Great support for groups and their administration, and you can always use bots if you want some niche feature. - Group voice chats - Acceptable search through everything in your history. (I am not up to speed on what the competition offers.)
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• throwaway201103 6y ago
  None of the above. Instant messaging is not necessary. Use email, or make a phone call if it's really so urgent.
• faramarz 6y ago
  If you have the means, consider donating monthly amount to Signal. They’re going to need it https://signal.org/donate/ https://signal.org/donate/
• the_arun 6y ago
  We switched to Signal & finding Signal consumes too much of data. I think the video & audio resolution is excellent in Signal - that could be one reason. I do not find a way to reduce quality thereby reduce data consumption. For developing countries like India, this is important.
  • georgyo 6y ago
    This is an interesting problem with true E2E solutions. The person sending you the image would need to send it with lower resolution. There is no way for the server to do it for you. The servers also don't store messages once they been delivered. There is no way to get a low resolution while mobile and getting the higher resolution while on WiFi. Signal does already have the method to disable media downloads while not on WiFi, but does not have a method to tell the sender to send lower fidelity content.
    • the_arun 6y ago
      But, how does WhatsApp do this? I mean it works great for countries with low bandwidth without user doing anything about it.
• tibbydudeza 6y ago
  IRC ???
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    IRC isn't an app, it's a protocol, so it doesnt answer the question of what one should use instead of WhatsApp. What IRC app would you recommend?
• jimbob45 6y ago
  Is there a way to use Signal or the rest as your main messenger app or are you just forced to use two apps if you want to communicate to non-Signalers? I know it’s a really elementary question when the rest of you are looking at this from a high-level (great discussion btw) but I’m never ever going to convince anyone to use anything but iOS messenger if they need two apps.
• Haemm0r 6y ago
  What about wire.com?
• bgorman 6y ago
  Unfortunately Signal is just a poor application. There are frequent bugs and after a while push notifications stopped working for me. (Pixel 3a, Android). I eventaully switched to iMessage.
• kureikain 6y ago
  Matrix is really great as a protocol They can do call , photo uploadinf etc. But be careful with them. I have lost message with them. One client show the message, the other wont. And a scary room update process. I always scare of losing message with their Element client.
• ikyriakidis 6y ago
  I voted for Signal however i am wondering how signal is any different. My concern mainly rises from the "fact" that "If You're Not Paying For It, You Become The Product"
• GrazinCow 6y ago
  My friends and family use Blackberry Messenger (BBM) Enterprise. Please see: https://www.blackberry.com/us/en/products/bbm-enterprise-bbme https://www.blackberry.com/us/en/products/bbm-enterprise-bbm...
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    This appears to be a "paid for" solution ... is that right? Also, it says: > BBMe is available for Android™, iOS, Windows®, and macOS devices. So, no Linux, by the looks of it. Or browser. But I've put it on the list ... thanks.
• m-p-3 6y ago
  As much as I like Signal, my vote goes to Matrix because there is no dependency on a phone number and the network is built with federation in mind. And there are several clients out there that are compatible, it doesn't lock you inside an "official" client.
• Thisisthefuture 6y ago
  "where is the don't switch option" Zuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard Zuck: Just ask. Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuck: People just submitted it. Zuck: I don't know why. Zuck: They "trust me" Zuck: Dumb fucks.
• robobro 6y ago
  Xmpp
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    Quoting from a previous comment[0]: > I've had that response several times, but XMPP is not a messaging app. It's like asking for an email client and being told "Use the internet", or "Use TCP". > Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the response, but it's not answering the question I'm asking. > What app running on top of XMPP would you suggest? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25676311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25676311
• husam212 6y ago
  I'm trying to switch to RCS.
• irkiosan 6y ago
  Session
• sagonar 6y ago
  It is a big weakness, that the companies cannot be force to state if they are acting as a platform or as a publisher. I think companies are way too power full right now, and the ability to shift position, sometimes they are a platform and sometimes a publisher. Companies should not be allowed to "shift" depending on how asks the question. I think a normal human would be forced to answer (in court), if they said different answer to different people. But these companies get away with it. Much of the conditions that has helped shape the current situation might shaping new efforts as well.. Support and client questions etc will probably be avoid as much as possible. Example do NOT explain why a BAN was issued, give as little chance to appeal as possible, and avoid all discussions about why something was done. Just say that they broke a rule, do not mention what rules or where in the text / video the "crime" was committed. Appeal process is very expensive, and if a company gave reason for example when they did a BAN that would sometime cause the banned person to appeal. If they stated why, a person in USA could appeal using the common justice system and perhaps claim in-justice, or lying (I guess a person might have a chance if the company did not apply its rule consistently, or if they could prove a lie) If they can avoid to given any reason for it, there is no way they will keep any rules well defined, it gives them much more power if the rules could be flexed a bit. I think the "common justice system" with defender, accuser and judge would be much better. A court also has to keep record of decisions and reasons. But I think no company would do that, it would limit their control/power and probably be expensive as well. I still think the companies have a bit too much power, and in a way wonder if they could be forced to solve "justice" better than now.
• qwerty456127 6y ago
  What about Tox or something like that? What about Jabber? By the way, bare e-mail is usually enough if you omit bloated signatures and quotations and just send short messages that way. There even is a Telegram clone which actually is an e-mail client.
• Thorentis 6y ago
  As I stated in a reply, so many people on some countries and communities rely on Whatsapp for essential comms. This role used to be filled by SMS, but now people expect a better experience. Why hasn't an alternative to SMS been created yet? We should not be relying on private tech giants to provide this essential service. There should be a fully end-to-end encrypted messaging service, supported by all Telecom providers, that is available by default with all cell plans. Data is now king, and almost all cell towers now have a data connection. We hasn't this problem been solved yet? We've essentially outsourced the creation of this critical infrastructure to companies that want to sell our data.
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    I don't think many people will be disagreeing with you, but for now, and for those of us who don't have the skills to solve the problem, we are left to look for the best option that is available. You've correctly identified all the problems and what should be done ... are you going to work on it? If not, why not? Perhaps the answer to that will tell you why, as far as we know, nobody is working on it. Sure as heckfire none of the big telecoms providers are going to bother.
    • Thorentis 6y ago
      Unfortunately I think it's one of those situations where the existing tech is "good enough" and there is not profit incentive to make it better. There is an incentive to amass a large user base (with associated network graph) so you can achieve a high valuation, but there is no incentive to create a new messaging protocol that can sit on top of the cell network. If anything, this is a task for non-profit orgs like the IEEE, IETF, EFF, etc. to be working on and funding.
• tylershuster 6y ago
  Urbit
• FalconSensei 6y ago
  For messaging, telegram is awesome. For video/audio calls though, I haven't been successful: lot's of delay and reconnecting sounds.
• opan 6y ago
  Matrix is okay, hopefully will be better someday, but I've had a pretty good time with XMPP the last few months. If you stick to Dino and Conversations (maybe Gajim too), the OMEMO is easier and more reliable to get working than Matrix's encryption, and you can turn it off. I mainly use Matrix unencrypted because they don't let you turn it back off, and it feels like most of my contacts don't understand the device naming and verification stuff. (also sometimes device verification just doesn't work). XMPP is also a LOT less laggy. Closer to IRC feel. I still use Matrix, but it's often frustrating with messages showing up late or out of order, and none of the clients feeling quite good enough yet. Especially if you use multiple accounts. Every XMPP client I've used supports multiple accounts, but for Matrix I've only recently run into Quaternion which supports this, and I believe also Neochat (they both use libquotient), but they're still rough to use. I wouldn't even consider options that aren't free software, and I'd also exclude signal because of them not putting their app on f-droid, not being properly decentralized, relying on a phone number, etc. (note that both email and phone number are optional for Matrix accounts)
• zoom6628 6y ago
  Most enterprise software companies have data privacy clauses in their contracts. The sharing of customer contact data may put corporate phone holders in breach of contracts. Prudence suggests that software companies at least should prevent all staff from using WhatsApp until their customers have agreed to it. And same would go for tiktok as it too also grabs your contacts. This is a slippery slope.
• paraknight 6y ago
  I'm genuinely surprised to see so many people pick Telegram after they've driven their reputation into the gutter and continue to do so.
• hda2 6y ago
  Matrix as soon as they support short voice messages. My parents use voice messages to communicate with me so anything without voice messages is a no go.
• sally1620 6y ago
  A messaging app is not a personal choice like using Debian or FreeBSD, it is about community. I have iMessage, Whatsapp, Telegram on my phone. Each one is used to reach a certain group of people. I also have Signal, but nobody is on there and I never use it.
• ancorevard 6y ago
  iMessage
• ekildeew 6y ago
  No one mention Session ? https://getsession.org/ https://getsession.org/
• wraptile 6y ago
  LINE [1] - is a very popular messenging app in SEA, Japan and Korea. It's more of a service suite (food delivery, news/entertainment streams etc.) but at the core it's a really good messenger. Key features that I like: - Great user-driver sticker ecosystem. Creators can submit their sets to the store and earn pasive income; there's even an sticker creation app [2] - modern, good UX and web-client with default E2E encryption. - ability to login with an account rather than phone number exclusively. - chat extras: photo albums, event calendars etc. especially great for group chats. - original quality photo sharing. It's a bit bloated being a full service suite and all but underneath it all it's a really good messenging experience! 1 - https://line.me/ https://line.me/ 2 - https://creator.line.me/en/studio/ https://creator.line.me/en/studio/
  • fomine3 6y ago
    I argue that LINE is really suck for multiple device support. LINE won't allow multiple iOS/Android device login (unless using "Lite" app or iPad app only for messaging) and basically the app stores messages and other data on the device. They requires to user to manually backup the data to cloud storage when changing device between same OS. The most pain is that they still don't implement data transfer between iOS/Android so chat log and other data is disappeared. Modern chat apps mush not like this.
• tonfreed 6y ago
  Everyone I want to talk to is on Telegram now. If you can't manage that, SMS works fine.
• fattybob 6y ago
  I’ve been trying to avoid using WhatsApp since it became Facebook but sadly almost everyone (no it’s everyone) I commmunicate with uses it and doesn’t care what happens to their data. I await the day when something significant occurs that gives the masses that push they need to switch to alternative privacy focused communication.
• ianschmitz 6y ago
  First my Oculus Rift, now WhatsApp. Sigh...
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• vldr 6y ago
  The switch doesn't have to happen overnight, for all contacts and groups. And you can just run them next to each other. People have just switched messengers in the past fine; ICQ -> MSN -> google chat / fb messenger (and I probably forgot a few). I agree that Whatsapp has become more "critical infrastructure" than messengers were, but don't give up right away because it seems impossible
• nikolay 6y ago
  Sorry, too much "privacy" with Signal! I want to have continuous history of my conversations, but Signal does not allow for it. Also, it's the worst SMS client and, in fact, I've lost text messages due to its "privacy", which I didn't ask for.
• bicepjai 6y ago
  I was looking at signal and telegram. Telegram was easier for family crowd and it has all necessary features for easy transition. Literally over a day I persuaded successfully all my active groups to move over to telegram. It was that simple.
• mro_name 6y ago
  never used it, so no switch. But if, then matrix over signal.
• BlueTemplar 6y ago
  Why isn't XMPP on the list ?!? In fact I've dumped WhatsApp in favor of Conversations several years ago, when Facebook bought WhatsApp. (I'm pretty sure that Facebook already helped themselves with all of WhatsApp's data back then, and this recent development is only ass-covering...)
  • ColinWright 6y ago
    XMPP isn't a chat app, it's a protocol. If you want a chat app then you need to list clients. Which client would you use? And xxxx/XMPP isn't on the list because when I last looked (which was some time ago) everything was unusable for muggles, same with Matrix. Responses to this poll have convinced me that the landscape has changed, although most of the suggestions are still inappropriate for someone who just want to use something, without having to understand everything about the underlying protocols. So, back to XMPP, or Matrix. Which client would you use/recommend?
    • BlueTemplar 6y ago
      Well, for Android at least, the one I mentioned, Conversations ? BTW, I use it with my mom. And even though I was the one that set up her XMPP account at https://jabber.lqdn.fr/my/create.php https://jabber.lqdn.fr/my/create.php , as you can see it's quite straightforward to do ! (And other servers might have an even easier, more mobile friendly version by now, IIRC Conversations itself is suggesting one ?) As for Matrix, see this other comment of mine : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25683697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25683697
      • ColinWright 6y ago
        Useful reply ... thank you.
• chewz 6y ago
  Wire https://wire.com/en/products/personal-secure-messenger/ https://wire.com/en/products/personal-secure-messenger/
• devilas007 6y ago
  Signal Wins
• Alexanderlll 6y ago
  Telegram is the best, that's why: https://t.me/durovschat/527081 https://t.me/durovschat/527081